valerie baut

of over two decades an wdescribs lane, more jimmy breslin. she is covered such disasters as katrina and the new york state legislature for outlets like ap and newsday. sheth currently for newsweek asn investigative reporter. and ineibler. she'll be in conversation with kristal knight who you might seen aa msnbc or fox news. or you may have listenehepodcas. she is a program. knight is also a political operative, founded the voting rights nonprofit, organized tennessee. so■ó prose union market

valerie bauman knight. evening. into the conversation, i know, valerie, you wanted give us a litt bit of background and do a reading befo our about the question and answers w short. just i think that was a great m. i just for little bit more background was 38 in the middle of the pandemic. i realized i was out of time. never. now, four years later, i'm baby the way very soo it's jusy long, strange journey and. i came acrosth world and i

justell. so i'm going to read just a little bit about some of the this and this is congratulations. you're a arsenal couldn't have expected federal appear at his door demanding to search his home,d self-describen rs donor to be targeted for fda and, for osment, the fda's center for biologics and research. seeber sent arsenal a cease and desist order and threatened him with a $100,000 fine due to his prolific private donations that same year agents appeared at his door and searched his home on the california man made 328

tions to 46 different recipients with the intent to get them time, his efforts had resulted in 40 births. the number rose to at least 25 as trent continued donating throughout the federal although he abstained sex. trt still testing every six months and primarily to lesbian couples free of charge. since 2006. seeber said that because trent failed to provide his donations through a bank or clinic and hadn't had the extensive and expensive weekly testing and the mandatory six month freeze in quarantine of -- that all -- donors must complete. he was in violation of feder regulations governing donation of biological tissue,

yet wide evidence of even more in operation today, the fda has not gone after a donor d to shut down personal operation more than a decade ago. nowfreelance -- donation is exploding the agency will soon need tand it plans to reguy among private americans. ■/ into fray via trent's case, only served to raise an uncomfortable ethical and legal question for the agency■wheason no freelance donor has been targeted in the same way■ under. what circumstances can the government tell u noconceive an? the fda is strict and costly regulations around donating a -- with a known donor aren'require. the man is a quote sexually intimate partner of the the problem is that the

government has no clear mate partner, an admission that became central in the proceedings in trent's case. in in that case the plain meaning of the words d■po require further explanationhaving someone's -- y via artificial insenaqualifies y intimate partner partner. and that continued exposure to that person's -- for the purposes of getting pregnant pose no additional risk to the recipient, nor would it violate laws governing donation. the this argument is key for trent all freelance --so becauso want work with a known -- donor but go back seat of a volksw, also forgo the costly freezing and six month quarantine that would otherwise be required prior to either ivf.

this could also help eliminate requirements at some clinics for psychological evaluations, copies of the legal contracts, among other indignities. trent's interpretation than is al his home state of california. meaning that state one home in 70 isn't achieved sexually intimate partner status for any re pair. unfortunaty,ssertions about howo define sexually intimate partner man eort to skirt the issue. and in 2012, he was from donating unless and so he complied withtained written pern from the there. all right. let's give her a of applause. ashley. first, perspiring rke ten month, basically. we also that you' p want open us

conversation one by stating i wa very excited when i got the invitation interview you because one. i think i shared this with you backage.■j i froze my eggs during the pandemic and so is something important to me and that i really care about. and i never about the even the possibility of, you know, havina bank or■ fertility. so this was a very, very interesting read. uch even writing this book. but the first question that i love in the book, you talk about a number of men who've gone through the process. why dedicate space in the book to talk you could have just written this book talking about everyone you your own story throughout thok interesting as the backdrop ofstory.

that's a good question. as alr journalist, 20 years, i'm not really comfortable being paf it's definitely unfamiliar. me. i think the number one reason is i felt like i to be honest with the readers that to tell■out mai was passjudgnt making decisions and actively participatinorldelt dishonest and i also just felt from a writing perspective that my own story made sense as a narrative spine, as i was world i came across different elements it was legal issues, you know, among donors disclosed, you know, offensive that neatly fito different chronology. so it really worked out very

well for the writing process. that's great. that's great. in throughout the book, you share with this really in the beginning of the book, share with us how youovery of findingo wanted to donate their --. and one of the ways and i went to the site how facebook has been a catalyst for so things■,■ because it's surely of the first if not the first socl platform to spin the longest. it's the largest, but you you these facebook groups you people in different parts of the country who s this region. and i just did a quick facebook facebook groups here in the dmv area, b that never occurred as possibility to me outside mediums like. aveks who are trying to get pregnant found -- if not

through a bank. ways i mean, i think that that you in the seventies and eightieslooked to their gay male friends to help em get pregnant. the dawn from my r -- was in like the early mid 2000 on craigslist. right. and! message boards or aol kind of message, bulletin people eitherr up their -- or say desperately seeking. and you would have these and lot of the men, the -- donors were drawn to this. there just a recurring theme of men having formative early sexual encounters you know, an older woman, woman who wanted them to get them pregnant andhen that suddenly

was an issue that had to be scratched. and they sought out■s where thee to pursue pursue people, but also kind of fulfill some inner craving. right. and when you' tkingut people are donating their --, you talk about artifial insemination actual insemination things youference between the were warned a woman? that's looking obviously even if she's going through a either a bank a nine traditional form, which is what the book is discussing worrying about the writing characteristics. you talked lot about, you know, questions you would ask on the or on the first face time. what are things that people olks just, you know, could be out here just really not being sinc?

well, you k 'm still actively involved in the groups and today irobably posted three or four times comments on somebody who is, you know, looking for a -- donor, i need them next week. i mean, whether you're going through a bank or not. --. --. this is going to crehuthe that's from a real human being who has their moral compass, who has their own personality, that are whatever human you raise. l so i know the urgency i have lived urgency. and the at times desperation of just wanting to be pregnant, wanting to be a mom. buyo that, especially not in the online world of freelance - donation, because there are creeps out there. there are problematic men, there

are men with breeder breeding fetishes. let's just say it. so so i think fact, the number one question is alway are donating --? why do you want to do this? anayb think that they're the one that i'm most always get is thee are me biological imperative to create more childrly financially care for. and they see this as a way of helping women and being able to do thaand would prefer the men o have a limit, who just trying to produczens a of. but they think, you know, is some way that i can get an occasional photo update and have a kid out there and just, you know, not just humans living creature, you know, for the most part has some biological imperative to■l reproduce, to ge

life. i don't know why we're on eart'y answer i can think of for me. and so i do. these men who want to pursue it. but you have to really be careful. tame up with your own list of questions. what matters to you. and if you worried, i think. yeah, we want certain physiological traits in our kids, but who ts man being going to be are? they going to be a good person. are they going to beow, are they going to be curious the world of freelance -- because i can find that outpejorative -- donor, a u can'tright. that's that's so important. when you talk about tell story about a lesbianple and this particular story stuck out to me because they they found a they got pregnant. they had the baby. and two years later, they broke up or they they separated.

and it like it was about deception in that of ■■çmen d up moving in with the man who -- and she was able to somehow in a legal way get the her her former her rm part'e birth certificate. what are t dangers in processes like that particularly same sex couples that that could hapthat know maybe they fall in love their donor and the pn that they're with and that they birth this child with. if they're not the conceive or that that could be a reality. them that st f6c felt icky that that happened and i felt for the woman who was on the non winning side of that equation. yeah, this was a heartbreaking case of oklahoma. it's inourt.

i think it would be handled differently, federal courts. yourself.r the short is if you are a lesbianouple using donor -- that is not from aadoption. that's onayyourself. ultimately, the judge felt that in this case that, just having your name on the birth certificateso i lost my train o. but there aren't a lot of protections, and that's why i kind read the proportion that i read talking about the sexually intimate if more clinics would get with the program and, acknowlee aduls have agreed that person is going to be a --r donor to the recipient and we're going to nproceed as if they're sexually intimate partners, but not a father role. then you have, first of all, the

safety and the dna testing, their own genetic testing, their own every analysis. so you have that protection. documents that some some guy, you know, messaged you on also in ■d person as a -- donor. they have a legal agreement that donor and that would provide more protection. at this point in time, california is only state that made laws that actually protect people who do home insemination. and i interviewed debra wald in okhe author of those laws. so think there' area. yeah. and speaking of the laws, part debra you talk about or she rather advisee legal contract tis not an agreement like i know you,

you know me, we're agreeing give me --. but there's actually a legal and you explained in the book all of the questions that that she asked you. you weren't4t first because we don't think about that when we're naturally st thinking about conceiving. but talk to us a little bit about just the legal aspect and why important to h■9e the legal you know the legal documents in placbecaus evolve people's feelings change an paper document is really for your unborn child. you have a notof conac actuallyy controversial in the world of freelance --. loast ofhe donors the men don't want to sign these contracts because in a lot of e those contract to prove that paternity in order to get child support later and attacked. ■c■anecdotally it seems more liy

that men will end up paying child support than women will end up having to share custody, mostly because these men are producing soy kids they couldn't possibly go after custody for all of them. right. end of the day, the laws are different in every state they're weak in most states as a lawyer and you people will pri ocontrad think that does the job but this a case pay lawyer it's worth money. i paid $1,000 i've heard 1300 1500 in surrounding states. get a wyer to do you contra and know what your options are. the other g as deborah walls, the author of the california law,ve sex to get pr, u're a father. that is it bottom line. if you have sex with a -- donor, there's no way around. he is th h father and -- donors and the facebook

groups don'liyou know i have cod get ally men and the moderatorsd they don't known because a lot of these guys are just trying to have sex yourself legally physically and protect your family. wow. that's advice, particularly for folks who are considering going freelance -- donor route talk us a little bit as well. just about this movement for women or parents who are deciding that they want to be single. they'r's the way that you coined it per the what is that process it really i guesstigator doing this as a journalist and writing this book, how have you about to go this route, space?

in two directions. on the one hand, i t know, the elephant in the room, health care in america is expensive. absolutely. there's not enough coverage for fertility. erjust so few options. not everybody can affor it me fr years to get to the point where next four years. if i had you -- doonean i would have spent an extra $30,000 than i already did going ivf and other, you know, things. so the cost is a huge thing. world. the other elements nt is while o consider m solo mom by choice. this wasn't planned a this was not i didn't choose to be 42 and not

have a partner. tale like everybody else. it didn't work out. does mean i can't be a mom. does that mean i can't build family? i can't accept and maybe some elements of that are selfish. but going this path single motherhood in way where i could meet the donor my is has agreed to letters with my child and then meet at age 18. they my kid will have more access and more information his ancestry than a lot people from going through -- banks. and that was why i tried to do it. i knew i'm to be a selfish. i want to become a■

backstage when i said i made the decision to frze i control away was. and i put it back. i put myself that's zach way i l about birthright. you' your choosing or you've chosen to in the driver'seat out the fate of having a baby andpartner it's the right person and the thing 's about this book and about the way that you de docume other stories. and even in the book you tal about freezing your eggs, you talk about journey and the instance you know, you got i eyink it was five eggs, bu embryo and going back and just feeling like you wanted to be depressed. came and she gave you life and gave you the energy

you neededo. go through the next round, but for many women, there's a■ç■ja't because it costs to freeze your success. so how did you decide that i'm going to try again? because for people they would say, hey, i just■o 15 or $20,000. i don't have it again to try again. talk to us a little bit about not only the strength to do it, but the cost factor, because there reality. the cost isunate that i have fertility coverage. there was a lot that wasn't covered. i mean i spent tens of thousands dollars to get to this and. i'm grateful for the coverage that that i as to go keep myself the option to give up.

d is the risk of a spoiler. there is a part in the book where it got very dark■ needed to get some mental health care and the grief of■÷ loss and the fear i finally let cons. this may not happen. i mayevev dream come true and become a mom and love. and i think so manyf come to the world of -- donation e, because we've been through grief, whe it' you know, if yo'u know, your lesbianar dna. so you have to go and get a -- would be m having ahought you kid. so many different paths bring people to gamete donation and usually those and it's amazing e

perseverance that emerges in e grief, i can't explain it. okay,fair and that's helpful. so if there's someone who's eninto obviously an audience here and people are thinking■9 about, should i take this path? this is something been thinking about what are just words of wisdom or words advice that ys's contemplating, particularly the freelance -- route? well, i think that, you know, once again, take your time when choosing a donor matter where you get your --mdlxme making the decision i would find your teammates. i was so fortunate to find a community here in washington

d.c. a fellow aspiring single mothers by choice i called them the i called us the wannabe mommies i'm now t l and they all have kids but surround yourself with people going through the same thing it's amazing how your best friend who has three kids isn't going to necessarily get it. that doesn't mean you love them less or they love you less, but you need people who are in the fire with you to help you get through it and so i think having people on your side who understand when you can say, i reallynother baby shower when it'be not and i feel like a jerk and they a fee. i think that is so important ■logistics leigh i you, vettingr vetting you's the -- bank or not

make sure you're asking?and it'. get sucked into, well, i want a or you know you know they better be over six feet tall. these aren't the things that matter. you're not going to love your e or less based on how they look. but i thi you to have a kid who's going to be family and, where you come from andki at the materials that they have about t es for a living and what their passions are. so the best that you are as people, is so much more important than appearance and that's what i really try to prioritize of my own, my own ■=search. well, and i have to ask, because this bk you throughout your pregnancy? how is i mean, away.

so congratulations early. congratulations. but how has this been therapy pregnancy journey?ng through oh, it's abte therapy it's it wo focus, the distraction, you know i writing a book on on evenings and weekends is especially when know so much of it is journalism. yohave talk to people. but it really helped me kind of channel my energy and times when i probably would have just turned into a puddle on the feeling. sorry for myself. it was like, well, these are important emotions. i better write this down. i better get this paper and take advantage of it while i can. it's great and i really appreciate you for just journaling it and like you said, how i begi conversation and infusing your own story with al stories that are

really just acd book and for the journey of of this process. i want now rn audience and see i'm sure folks have plenty of questions because is such an rest topic, but i'd love to just if there's anyone here who has a question for valerie and about her process and about thei see a couple of hands. hi. thanks so much for sharing your story. for talk a little about how you xrca to to the place where you were rjh mom, you know, having a care and, then ming real space for a baby on your. how did you say figure it out and how did you

build out a team to help you? what t like? that is a great question. i think. first, i wanwith, you know. i'ha mean i that i hate men. i love men. i think men argrt. i'm going to have a little boy who's going grow up to be a man. but i think i had been through so much with so many have kid wh you. yes, we ha f it didn't happen. and then i said, i'm you pandemic. and something i realized way sey ■w;'celebrie babies at 42, 43, 44, 45. what they don't tell you is the huge amount of cost that goes into they don't hat a lot of times those aren't made with those women's eor eggs, whs fine. that's a valid, valid path. butt ea and.

you go to thee life trying not t pregnant and maybe youro you wae kids someday? that's the end of the failed by our medical community for, not talking to young women about fertility and aboutparing ourselves to make choices independent of mening to go offe bit, but i feel we are in hookup culture. men are not as bound to partner with women and be part of a family. i as a womm hard. i want a family. and i just realized i around and wait for a man to make that happen because i was out of time and it just hit me. i think with the mortalityf pa's going to happen in this onyx. not ideal■? way. it's not going to happen at all. and what i live with and what can i live with and i live with not being a mom.

so it was it was really a decision out of■fnecessity. so this is a question abt th hardest of writing the book. difficult for you to power ■=it about question. i think. the hardest part was. in the processbook. i went through a loss. i had i had a miscarriage and i lost my baby and's when i ended up needing to get some mental health care. and actually it wasuld be okay. then the first mother's day that i wasu mom, i

lost it. and then having to go back and re explore that once i had finally gotten a grip was really scary because i didn't want to go back to this dark, unstable and knew to for the sake of my readers, i needed to be authentic and honest and raw and it was very scary to open up the window into those feelings again. so that was definitely the hardest part, i would say. d that's this bookc. it doesn't feel so pie in the sky like based on one of the questions about where, i think janet jackson had a b that. you're right, money is different. and i didn't even think the donor eggs we were talking about donor --, but of them have so much access to assistance that

th everyday just doesn't. and■ writing this book or actually reading it for me made me realize it's a possibility you are a living example and you h so many examples in the book and the ups and downs right like the real life. so when you when you ask the question about what was the most miscarriage that's you talk something that a lot of women relate to. you have to try and try again until you're sucfu also the joys process. and i think that's the joy in tually seeing you in real life with the baby, with the there's there's a happyand yeah, i'mgrateful that. does their happy ending.

that's that's the sad thing. but i think that getting to this point, it's just my came out on tuesday and then, you know, a month later i'm expecting to have a baby so it's a big year for me and it's really come together in this really unexpe beautiful way. and i just have to giyself to fate sometimes and and accept that thin are are not going to always work out the way you want. t mayb be. wise, verye are other questions or■c commens even about, okay, i two hands. thanu. curious, this dual role t you journalist, what sorts of

challenges you or? did it enrich the to get your ts on that. and otr gruestion and just to repeat, in case anybody hat, so how did i navigate the line between being a journalist and aw participant? it was really difficult at first,■- i really, i think the toughest partor justice by e community donors because there o many who are creeps, but there are also good guys out erreally making dreams come true the way mine dreams have been made to come ue. a lot of these. and so i when instinct is to s , this is appalling to me when,

you know, when when somebody basically talks about they, you know, they don't even enjoy sex. it's conception s t willies. i don't know about you, but b sp back. and because i was part of the times me let us know howwas chat background helped me really open up. you know, oninat struck me was, the -- donors who talked about we need to realize a lot of these young men are -- donors, grew up i remember life before the internet. it came around when iasthese me. they never had life without tern, without free access to easy --. they never had they had, you know, video gamhat ma women's bodies look obscenely unrealistic. and social media, which makes it harder for you to interact in

al lifif all you is interacting in this pseudo world and i think a lot of these men struggle with their masculinity this is the post-metoo era. they don't know how to be men. and i think it's really easy as women who have been wronge pastr nose up at that. but i would challenge us to hear these men out and if they astruy and to know what that means,■' ar the word masculinity without the word toxic before it, and that's unhealthy for ciety, my opinion. and so to hear the how some of thesey older donors, more experienced donors would coach the younger donors and say, you can't treatve like observer and you. and they found s w together. sometimes that turned out not, sometimes there was mentoring happening and so i

think because of my journalism backgrou to ino your your question, i was able to pushçspart of the story and trying hear these perspective then i hope i did justice representing in the. bit. yeah there was one in the back end went up front and here have come across any bias from the medical community during this process. mmabsolutely. i have an entire chapter which is called dr. patronizing. i, i had a doctor who was so insulting to me. i ended up switching i ended up switching fertility clinics, but, you know, he's snapped at me. i had my first egg retrieval and

th hoping tothey only got three. and the way i found out was woke up from■8 a and i had a post-it note with number three on it and it was it made me think of when the guy broke up with carrie in sex and the city on a post-it note, i was like, this is how you communicate this to me when i finally got to talk to him, i said, why didn't you set my expectations? you were telling me, youre expex eggs. and he's like, this is exactly what i expected. it's not my fault your eggs are old. and then turned and walked away and the same doctor every time i had a question, his answer was, i have 34 years of experience. that's not the answer to my question. i think that i'm just so tired of being talked down to as a woman. i am fortunate. i've covered a lot of health care. i know how to advocate myself, i know how to work the system. but i'ust come unit kate with me like i'm an intelligent adult and like i

am here for my life to have my dream mother come true. this is a this is as it gets. so anyway, so obviously it started as very personal journey for you, but at what point along there did you decide? was there a specific moment? you're like, there's a story s an me. or like, what? what was the impetus for the book specifically, not just for your very on as soon as i came across the world, freelance -- donation. ■u■ me, i was going through these facebook pages. i kind of stalked them a little bi in. but just seeing the conversations that were stopped now, but initiall i would see like a very attractive woman poste looking a -- donor, i live in you tulsa and da da■+ da da. and the donors would say, did was as if had no agency in

deciding who her -- donor was. little back and forth tiffs about, i was's like, this is not your decision, sir. nuts. just felt like there was still enough there that made me think this is a route i want to choose because i love to have a donor that to. but i just it was such a ld thi. i got to see where this takes nk you good question. and speaking of wild west, a few of the stories that you'as just about going to retrieveing intod mean, how how did you do muwthat? i mean, you talked about getting on the metro, going 30 minutes out to meet a you know and you said was it didn't matter if it was alida it

was sunny. but he would consistently meet you go into the men's restroom, come out, give t --, and you would go into the women's restroom and. then you had thi into city. that is it. i mean have you like that's a process and. you documented it in the book. so i'm just curious like what did that feel like? i'm going to get this freelance -- i'm meeting up almost like in a back alley, although it was in a back a.but i'm meeting you k'e i'm going into the women's room. i'm inside myself. and then i'm getting back on the train like. coffee like, yeah, it wasn't easy. i to go through the clinic and and i went to that doctor patronizing thing and said, will you let me use this donor? c dall e testing here. and he said, no, you can' you have to spend like 60 $500 and wait six months to have his --ntined, which again goes

back to the legal element of how do weefine a sexually intimate partner. it's like if i've had this person's -- insi're good, you kt as clinical. you know, this is knows is ntransaction. this islica getting an intrauterine insemination, b w'r look back on it. and it's amazing to me that i did it can see how it's but but it was it was only way i doing was still giving my kid tccs i nted to to know where they came from. process. so you also talk about how

is and seti, of co testing. is that something that you found it as a different hurdle of the freelance option of this something that, you know, you would dothroughout if you're going through -- the testing is done for you, which is great, but one thing we haven't touched on today is the huge problems and the test that doesn't get done in -- banks, which, you know, theoretically they psychological testing. but you know there's a very famous case from the where for years they let adonat. he produced, i believe, 33, 36 children that they know of and. it turned out he this mu actually a convicted criminal.

had had some psychological he had he had a schizoaffective disorder. and a lot of the children produced this kid via a -- bank, which is supposed be safe, had rious mental health problems as a result. so i banks, i just i didn't feel a whole lot m that and that's just one instance. banks, they have lots they have lobbied actively against any regulation to limit how children and how many how families can be donated to and how many children produced. now, in the world of freelance --, you got high volume donors who areducing lot of kids, i was able to find a guy has helped ten families. he's where, the different women who have been can join and they want to have their and other half siblings. that's to me.

know this person i feel like there some emenof trust but i'm sorry did i answer your qutiink what your what's sharing is the difference gog bank. the question was around the genetic testing. e but i think what you took us through just you're not necessarily any more is that any more secure going a bank than doing t freelance way particularly with the last example at donor. who has who's helped faes contru have access to the other women,u and inter bank say this donor can only donate up to two or three families or whatever their regulations are. and th the big takeaway for me, which is that is probably a better option thanoi because ofa

because of and, because of the the judgment. i mean,patronizing the way thatl officials just kind of treat throughout this process you know do know it's better i think it was better for me i don't condone it andn it i think every prospective parent needs to make own decision about what's right for them. nk safer and in some the -- ways are for me it was if i have a prospectivd i say i need you to take a new sti test, and they say, no, that's a lot women out there think he't those blue eyes. i'm goi to let this one slide and. i paid for my genetic testing and, did go through the clinic that. ultimately. had the first thing you to do is get your own

done. if you're a carrier for hat very real that can't risk it. i'm a carrier forn my family had that. but it can be a devastating disease. a lot of kids are born and die within the first couple of years and so there was no question i was going to i was not going to work with a donor who wasn't willing to do the genetic testing. but you in banksnd the freelance world that find ways to hide things. so there's no guarantee. the, you know, heteronormative normative, you know, tradition get genetic testing done all of them, you know, a lot of them know what they're getting into. so at a certain point, you've to find the balance that's right for you. got it. got it. and i know have maybe like five more minutes. we have to wrap. so ifhere there's do we have okay.

i'm getting the signal that we ' valerie, want to just say i want c out y appreciate you for taking the time to not only share this, the minister that you've shared also your own personal journey and. reading this book inspiring and thank you for sharing it at■a large with everyone here and folks that are watching this. i'm a little bit later but thank so much for writing best next month. thank you sof you.

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