hello everyone. welcome to bookmarks tonight. i' buss, the program director and. it is my pleasure to welcome you bookmarks. anybody's first time here. e. you may not know bookmarks is a literary arts nonprofit and our miss community by bringing of all ages together with books and authors who educate, inspire

challenge and entertain. we're sot. and it's my pleasure to tonight's event over to laura schober, bookmarks administrator who's going tot and introduce our featured author. pretty good everybody hear me okay? okay. wonderful author here this evening, kathleenofessor of history at the university of north carolina at chapel, where she teaches early american and american indian history. her previous work includes independence lost, which was a finalist forn prize and native ground indians andent. she is coauthor of give me liberty and voices from colonial america. youtonight. i am very excited to moderatethis event, a brilliant book. in because you're here to hear from kathleen and not question answer at the end of our conversation. so, kathleen, if you summarize just to begin the scope of the book and share us your goals for

writin natve. right. thank you, larry. it's such a pleasure. be here. i think the main reason i wanted to write this book is sort of think that a nominate americans. see native americans in all kinds of places thesevs and in big supreme court the north carolina museum of art right now. i it can be hard for a lot of people who aren't native american themselves to realization that a lot is going on with native americans we may have been taught about native history, native american history. i think the way a lot was in the past you know, far in the were native americans here in 1492. but maybe pretty quickly decline for various reasons because of their with europeans, maybe we sort of hear abouthem again in classes when we get to indian removal and then maybe not that ter that. and so what i really wanted do is for readers kind of bridge

native americans are still here today and nations. there are almost 1600 native nations today in the united states, and that's ju counting federally recognized nations in co canada not counting state recognized tribes. there the survival of native nations is a long and important history that i think that i think and so the u.s. but the scope of the book where is really tell a millennium of native american history kind of all between two covers starting in the in about the year 1000. so quite a while before any europeans people from other continents came. the ways that native americans lived in north america before then through the cenr 1492. i think one of the things that we tend to do move too quickly from the arrival of europeans to the united states spreading across thewhich really doesn't happen till after the civil war many centuries

so book goes i think, at a pace that i think is more reasonable for that sort ofericans were the majority of then and the continent of north america and held most of the land and thepower on the continent really into well, the 19th century and the book also it goes sort times for native americans, the hardest times for rcentury, 20th century, and to and so today istory and sort of the renaissance that's going on in native a this is how i sort of close the book and then to build on that in each chapter, you're focusing on a specific nation. so how did you make those choices and what did you yeah, what i what i when i realized i wanted write a millennium of history, i thought inations to highlight and everybody. so i have so, you know most of the chapters introduce one native nation in one particular place and time. and so the book goes chronologically forward time but introduces native nations along the way and and then as we get

toward the end into the late sort of braids them together, them in part, i wanted there's been a huge amount of scholarship by ianative nations and so i wanted that that about that i can sort of compare to each other. there was a rich body of that and i wanted i chose s for particular times when they were had a lot region. so for example, i talk about the mohawk set ine trading with the dutch and having huge influences on other native nations as and then the sort of sort of used for choosing did iay of that nation do i know scholars within those tribes who who are you know in alean and learn and maybe had or in some cases had already from, but who could introduce me to people, introdo sources i might not know otherwise. and and also read those chapters and make sure i wasn making any big mistakes and misrepresenting their history and that leads to my next

question. in the foreword you states, i tried to live up to the call of shawnee tribe chief benjamin jay barnes for scholars to work with and not on so what steps did you take in the researchort of building on what you're saying? yeah, this is know been a real a real turn in in sort of the wic scholars have have written about have worked native nations and i think you sort of you know that has happened in some other disciplines. and so it to, to, to not follow that sort of old model of just looking at documents, just, just thinking i coul nations without knowing how they see their own history. what i did with, with all of the other nations i focus on is is that i really tried to see and sometimes that was to talking to tribal scholars seeing wha and every chapter i talk about the present as well an still around has survived all centuries and and also just many

of them have have centers, have theihave a sort of full picture of how they understand the they about their history. and so i try to inc well. thank you. there are many parts of this book that i feel are very important and so you all have question and answer periods. you ask other things, but i my following question is going to sort of pull out the things i thought through the book were emphasizing his or her points madet to begin with this idea of theocity and could you discussreciprocity? this value shaped their lives? well, one of the reasons i start a millennium ago, i don't know was there were there were cities. there were across north america in, you know, in the around a thousand years ago, cahokia and ssissippian societies large,est, based on a huge k about in the early chapters of the book is, is first, those cities those urban civilizations and then the fall those that

that with the coming of the little ice age around 1200s, those societies those sort of very centralized societies fell in north america. and often that's been told as a sort of a story ofhat. there was a great know this golden era came later. and but really oral histories of of the descendants nations of those old urban civilizations talk about it as as as an improvement. and so i trace some those changes that came about. and one of those was the really reciprocity becomes a value a in but also in economics politics. an so the many,histories and that sort of archeology this up and when i know and the way that polities native polities have ever really talk about this this extreme rejch powerful religious political in some societies at the time, urbanization and the values, reciprocity and so

it's sort of c one of the reasons that this comes about is is sort of in a time when when winters were colder and and growing seasons were shorter it was harder to depend on agriculture trading much more impo path certainly been trade in the path but but but of food important in this new era and s paucity in economics meant that if they were to trading of each to sort of take care of the other. and so if one trading partners, you know crops had not done well in a certain it was the responsibility through reciprocity of the to to feed them that year and if you were the one feeding being se then you were sort of building up credit. so reciprocity is for hard times. and so you really see take and that that value of the center of native economies and and politics and sort social system something thatative people today many them still still talk about as a exasperate all right we don't always live up to our is that native nations just return to talking

about what they want to do. the recipropposed to be something that they that they strive for. i mean goi tquestion, i think reciprocity something that i hope that in sort of some of my relationships with with triba scholars or bringing them some, you know, documents from archives that i've collected and learning in return all the things they now. nice i love you native nations long efforts to take their resources for the colonists own gain and re well aware of that sort of narrative and i is that you really talk about their diplomatic skills to community for a large, like you before. yeah yeah. would you mind if i read a little bit? no, i do not. yeah, i think i might read a little bit from my mohawk illustrates what what you're asking and you find it. see if i can hold the microphone a distance. i can actually lighten the

enemy came ashore and the mohawk warriors came out of the barricade. the mohawks, an impressive sight. nearly 200 of them pnt for war with wooden armor and helmets to protect themses. arrows and wearing their distinct haudenosaunee short feathered headdresses whinspired terror in their enemies. the approaching at algonquin and any let out a cry and then did someth when. they were about 30 steps away from the mohawks they parted into two groups,n the middle. one man covered in metal from hiises as the mohawks pulled back their bows preparing to shoot their first arrows, they heard an enormous cracking boom as if thunder and the sowaterfall had combined and struck for just a moment right in front of one of the mohawk standing near the front down, dead shot right wooden armor, the enemy force shouted in delight. another bang. anothe never yet seen. and it was astonishing to see arrow. if we rushed too fast through the 17th century, we might interpret. the arritipped arrows as the start of native dependance and europedominance. but we would be wrong. local rivalry, customs and to the

most important factors in native decisions and opportunities and limits for europeans. there been new weapons here before andof defending against them. when your gained some advantage, you adapted. and that is what the mohawks and then i won't read this part but they go on and they they developawks, develop this fur trade with the dutch. the dutch are completely t a are right, right, right right. they make cakesout of white. they make white bread. they make these things that it turns out the mohawks really like because everybody likes cake. right? and so the mohawks have so much economic power through the fur ary power to that they stag made out of white flour from and the reason i know about this, that there colonies writing to the netherlands company can only afford very heavy bread. right, because the mohawks buy all the white flour and buy all the cakes. so it's one examplehings down a little

bit, not to not to deny but if you slow things down, remember, there are therehave more power than europeans th there other stories too. that is so really glad you talk about that because if we have time i that. loved you know so learning is very importantoved is that you really address some inaccuracies in whatt was presented in textbooks or the narratives thativen and that we've been taught. so just wanted to see if you would discuss a little bit about the choice to adopt horses into the cultures, how that changed the lives of the plains nations, right? i examined closely are the kiowa is in the 19th century, previously, so there are no horses on the plains before come. there's a very small horse that's extinct by then. but not not the horst the horse that you ride. right. so yeah, there's yeah. if there's any stereotype of

native americans, it isthey ride horses, right? and yet that's something happens after the coming ofe spanish who bring horses to north it's you know colonists indians actually plains ans that the spanish didn't really want them to getto have a monopoly on horses and keep native americans from having horsesericans started taking horses stealing h themselves and creating an culture, the sort of the plains indian culture that it's a a creation of. yeah. as say as of choice of people who decided tonow, another stereotype of native americans is that they're nomadic. these are people who were not nomadic. they lived on river, you know, iniver. and they farmed and they went on hunts, you know, only part of the year on foot. but with the coming of the them chose to actually tents, right. they're not they'reheir housing. you can move around and are an culture that that is horse bound and then there are others in the same

region who don't make that choice. right. who s ry of them become more because they noin food feed. you know, agricultural projecproducts to sell to these bison hunters who live all year on theains. thank you for that throughout book you emphasize how native never surrender their. i think you talked a little bit thatnguages or religious beliefs practices can you their nation survival the of the present as well right right yeah yeah i'm glad you asked that i mean it's almost miraculous. so it really shows the determination of of ancesttoday's nations just that to not to stop being native american, but also not to particular or that chickasaw or choctaws, yo or they were. now, not to say that no native nations sort of combined or, you know, hadinly did. and many of them did lose their languages and but the sort of determination

um, to remain their own people their own peoples is really striking all the, the pressures to change that and states in the late 19th century and the early 20th century, when the outlawed a practicingtuu know culpublicly outlawed native religions,tive languages, took children their homes from their cultures, put them on trains too far away to try to make them not to be part of theirnymore. the fact that, you know, some of those and learned those lessons from their grandparents and their +÷ continue, you know, that their grandparent and continue you to be kiowa or whatever they you know they were is just is just amazing things i try to talk about in every chapter is the importance of women in inwhy utah maintaining even through adaptation, but but just maybe quietly speaking the language at home, telling kids over and over who re, you know who you are, we know who you are.

even if if it's school or whatever, you you don't talk about it. i think that's just that's maybe the biggest key to how they how survived as and book european and colonial colonial colo land are central to the relation nations. what were those views and how did they transition over thecenturies to the increased detriment of native americans? so, um, you colonization has at its root the idea that you could take other peo it's sort of the opposite of reciprocity and european an idea thatght to what theyalways able to do that. there are plenty of times when whend the power to keep them from doing under current of sort of nations don't quite own the land. doesn't. for them to still stick around. um, there's, there's very sort of religious tone to early on

colonization of, of the americas and then continues in various forms over th centuries through indian removal know, say maybe a native nation does have a e, but the u.s. government can say where that land can bemeland anymore. if if there are u.s. citizens who want through allotment in the in the late 19th century and early 20th century, when carved up once again in, an attempt to make their not to, make their not be communal lands anymore, to make their uh, native people only be individual take land and to um, yeah i thi book it's very stark, when you see the maps right that you how sort of gets to the ends, of, of the reservation lands and sort of the very small areas. afterword you write white settlers who took land wrote a

native nationhood and powerse seem inevitable and justified. history? um, yeah. so i t my, to answer that question, right, that native nati were a long time ago. they're, they survivenialism here today and they'll be here in the i think is theand you know, i think one of the things that many native americans keep saying today is we're still here. and that is just response to that sort of settler colonial to take land and to to break up we've been talking about. but then to paper it all over as if it were sort of here, but they never rea land. and, yeah i think i would just say exact ve been here the whole and many have l rights land and we were talking in the back sovereignty especially with the cherokee about both the use of the lands also to

reclaim them today and i there's some work to do that right right right. so so one of the things i think a lot of people is, is is how tribal sovereignty today that that was federally tribes have have under the under the federal government have umts of sovereignty that some of that iswas true versus which was the first case to use theic dependent nations. i at the time the cherokees and thoswere domestic to the united states all they were their own nations. but it's a very powerful tool forward of, uh, of sovereignty within the united that, uh, tribalal nations, at least are not under the states. states, under the federal government. they have treaty that uh they can enforce and they know people have been paying attention they've won a couple of really important u.s. cases before the court recently, including, u case, which, uh, which is about, about sort of exercising vereignty over criminal cases among many of the tribes in um, and so a lot of this is still just being worked out exactly what sovereignty will look like going forward.

but just a, just a couple of examples the, the infrastructure bill lief acts, you can see those that aid dollars were fund or were flowing governments. that and tribal governments is at the important reminder that um these are functioning governments that have a huge amou of presence in the lives of their tribal if yto is just go to a tribe's website and many trknow, has a lot about history and a lot about culture, but is mostly about social services and the kinds of things that governments do. and it's a really good you know they're governing entities, um, and that they' be for that for, you know, well, the future. andlina very as the couple of years. so you could speak to the native nations that are here north carolina. um, to those who also may not i'm really glad you ask that. i've sort of had to say, except for state rescued from that. so the eastern band of cheroetribe that's based in north carolina. the others are state recognized

tribes. and so one of the chapters, one of the actually the first chapter i have in here that has europeans are in the whole chapter i the brief founding of roanoke on th so ancestors of many of north car' are in that chapter, um sort of in this very,ef interaction with the english who tried to found a, uh, aony at roanoke and failed, obviously. and so then i do talk in the book about north carolina state recognized tribes over the um over their centuries of history en. and, um the very difference between what it meant to english very early right on thevirginia, new england versus peoples like the cherokees the kiowa is the chinese who little more time and who could do had at of thing i was reading about the the mohawks know carolina virginia new england they are hit very large large, large numbers of english

survive even as native communities is even more amazing that they still today, that t through the centuries just kept telling their children ando we are. no matter what happensu know, and jim crow and all of turn them into either white people or black people people. um, they kept their, you knocombined, but they, they, they kept their native many separate native communities through tod they too i think are having a renaissance. and um, in various ways though still struggling about sort of purchased the book and walk away with readers to maybe take away yeah, yeah. i think it's just my m this a long history native nations. already. basically native nations were here long, long time ago. they're here today. they're going to be here in the future. and they're an important part of u.s.but on the flipside, u.s.

history is just you know, it's only 250 years old. um it's it's a bit of a we'll what the future holds. but, um, you know, i it's, it, it may end up that's a that's segment of the history of this continent in the even. thank you. opportunity to ask any have. and i'm sorry i, um there are there will be if you raise your hand, someone will bring microphone. and if you would just kind of speaking to about asi am, i should state that. thank you so as anow and talked about there being sort ofnation especially native americans being in the mid currently histor. various moments in native americantory right remove all that you know as eras removal and things like that. ' name this moment and what will historians call this m project. yeah, yeah. that that's that's a greathistorians

calling it the er revival of sovereignty, um, ndf er i moving even into sort of the next phase and uh, to name it, but i think maybe maybe self-determination is sort of 70 years or very late 20th century, beginning o something you know, people use the word renaissance a lot i think that a different historical era. but but i think maybe there there's going to some some word that gets at the sort more than self-determination, using that self-determination, that increa to, you know, so, so say, you know places that have casinos or have um, sort of ways of starting bring income in that before. many are pumping that money back into, you knlbusinesses, into small business loans for tribal and circle of investment that and then also ing money into cultural revival language. so i think it will be a word or a couple words that at that kind of moving even what you can do with, sovereignty, even, you know that that affects people's lives even more. thank you.

because it feels like it just sort of stops with the seventies and eightiight be how history sort of happens. like we're just renamed to naming a new thing. but it does feelike i teach native american literature when i teach i. and when you teach native america're teaching native american history because we don't get it so you don't get it. and so it is funny because still seems to stop in the seventies and eighties so anhe ancient to young university yeah. yeah, exactly. and yet you go into bookmarks and there's there's clearly a renaissance going on in native literature today. so maybe. that makes me now want to use the word renaissance. ju and students now, they've been using it in native american for long. oh, okay. good, ok good, good. yeah. so maybe you need a but. yeah thanks. but it's high. it takes me a lon've only just watching yellowstone. but i've been interested in the native. american storyline and i if in current culture what feelaccurate

of the curren native themes or reality yea do have a few favorites. i like reservati dogs, which is based on, on the creek reservation in the. in oklahoma. and uh, um, uh oh. what's the ed helms rutherford falls. it's about history. it's, it's this town where. two best friends, one who's whose ancestorrt of this new england guy. and and then and his best friend who runs the tribal cultural center and museum. and and she's she belongs to the 's sort of made up, but it's like, you know, the local and it also has lots of native actors and it's funny reservation dogs is funny too, uh, rougher. um, and um, uh, um. alien. further, right? but it's, it's about. so this, this who's actually an alien, but then he makes

friends indians and he know an alien. yeah. ry smart so. and also, you know, again, youe there are so many native writers and native actors, native showrunners who are involved in these, um, in these shows,s it's really, i think it's an exciting time and then if you really like mohawk giso. so, so you had mentioned um, sort reciprocity you were sharing with the tribes and then alsoing back with literature and other sources from different european nations. when you shared that information with t you like little vignettes where they kind made connections or maybe found something contradictory something shared based on that new interaction? yeah, that's a great so so most of that for me has been with the co-op has becad to do with co-op on osage history. and so that i got to know, um, the tribal historic preservation

officer and some of the peoplethere. and so the, these documents that i was18th century, the french and spanish. and so it's one of the things that they're wanting to do is, is just really have this long history of their that they're writing and telling to their own people. and so just having those as part of, uh, of their archive is really important and then the ds can go look at them themselves. and i thinkthe most interesting conversations have been about language because the french missionaries who would they wanted to learn cobol language in order to, for it to be part of t they would write down vocabulary words as were trying to learn for really documents to a tribe today. it gives them a into the language of their ancestors which has changed over time. some of been lost, but also some of it is just changeause languages change over the centuries. and so to sity those words out loud, because, you know, the french guy is because the french has a lot of extra letters. and so you if, you read french and thenlanguage hears it and it

like it right when a frenchman wrote it down. most exciting conversations. so i hope those kinds of things will con yeah, ihow were you ableorate mythologies or religious or sp know, themes, stories into the work that you did? i, i do some of that and i try to be careful with there's i don't understand. and so religion, something i careful with than other things. but, um, and to try to keep it on a pe of the things that um, i think is really importanty is these inclusive ascetic religions that, you know, at least in theory, islam, judaism those are all exclusivist. you, you are or you aren't, right? and you become christian. you're supposed to stop being the non-christian you were and become. now, you know, it's a little more complicated that in actual life religion to generalize + are inclusive ascetic in tha you and your people you know it's not wil learn

about a belief a religious belief or a religioseem that seems valuable. you can pull it p religion having to get rid of anything else. make sense, then you don't have to. right. but, um, and i think that's, that's a really way of understanding ending interactions or religious between eupeople. there were plenty of times when christian missionaries thought made converts and they thought that meant they'd got of their old religion and then found actually, no, that they're had used their own methods of of inclusive, ascetic religion and had, uh, had added christianity to that of parts of christianity to what they already believed prac i think that's one of the ways in which native religions been able to and adapt because they're supposed to adapt or they're supposed to things. but without, uh, you know, up. how did you gete you part native american? no, but yeah. so i'm no it because i went toto i wanted to study, um,

colonial history interactions in early america various europeans and various native americans. i, um,i took on a class in, in college that got me interested thatho more a little bit more about europeans and the native americans would just bbut um, i ended writing my first book, my dissertation and my first book on, on arkansas, which is where i'm from. and i knew there and i thought, well, i can read those documents in french and and we were talking about and bu where the fa in both case the fa edgof of the french or the spanish empire, arkansas was not where you wanted to be sent. worry i officer in the french or spanish empire and so this official unofficial th maybe ten soldiers. right because these are are very spread out surrounded by thousands thousands dozens of of oh and then many, many more osage weretribe anybody who crossed them and so their doments the letters the reports that these men had to

write back are just they're just full of that the osage did. and it and as i read those andwrote dissertation, i thought, well, this is this is a pla charge and and europeans are just therethey're, um, plenty of other places. in place, it sort of taught me that there were places of placross continent where native americans had a lot of power. and that just got meinterested that, um, and then i, for several decades now. i got to know just lots of native scholars both within tribes and in the academy and um, just start the present is with the past. um and sort of, that s this, this book and then i think a much richer understanding of natiamerican history than i had, uh, when i wrote my first book, maybe time for one or two more questions. last two to, do i'm the sort of person who likesracy through fiction, wonder a historian, just as a reader whether you enjoy nliteratures, if

so, whose work yeah, really do. yeah. though i think we should throw it write. yeah so i'm excited to read tommy orange his new book. i we were just talking about about susan inve american history class, which is a sort of freshman and sophomore level class y read her grass dancer. and i think that's, things that she's written, but i really like that. just so many these days, right i would have to sort of sit down and write a, write a big list and, but, uh, yeah. and then and then yeah. so there's little i quote some fiction authors in the book and a lot of harjo and, um and natalie um. thank you. no sir. yeah and i will say that, um maybe last year or the year before they had an author here whong for a blanket down. and that was, that was really yeah, was really good. um wondering, i feel education native americans w what really happened, kind of sica thanksgiving

great we all shared food and it was fun but it wasn't to a college that when i history classes that li gosh is fascinating and horrible all at the same tildren who are now college age learn similar even though they did incorporate a native american maybe it was that class that my daughter took in high school. however, i'm wondering if you know if changing what children are learning in elementary scho about native history. yeah i'm i you know my teenagers i was really interested in thisi, i don't know. i think likeindividual teacher and some are doing a terrific or just because i think one of the most lik important things for non-native kid to learn is iand really okay yeah you really are here today and, and uh, and then i think in others they aren't, i m teach elementary school kids, for sure. it's horrible righ adult content only rightut, but i don't know. we're we're certainly trying the

coll to,o provide, um, yeah. i don't know, i don't it's hard. i mean teachers to do so much trying fit really in depth native history into awhen you're going at breakneck speed anyway. um, yeah right anything you like to leave with no. this has been just such a pleasure. i'm sotoe come to bookmarks where i haven't been before. it's it's such an exciting space to b it's great wonderful to have have your questions later. this has been just a del we really appreciate you coming sharing your book with and so i'd like to thank you. and if we do a round ofthank you so

much i'm so excited to talk about this book.

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