he doesn't like the situation. he's against our ancestors and he's for russia. he has russian pimp ensconced. i'm republican but i'm sick and tired. i got out of the republican party. we have people to put trump on the site and this congress on the side of shame of this congress accepting that netanyahu criminal. this is a criminal organization. how that stupid congress they are so deep? except this guy? >> host: that's a last call for this segment. welcome back were joined by stephanie, author of how the heartland went red. also an assistant professor of government at harvard university. welcome to "washington journal." >> thanks a traveling. i'm excited to be here.

>> your research and your recent book focuses on how place -- i did in behavior. what prompted you to study that aspect of it? >> i really didn't set out to study place per se. i was really interested in trying to better w understand ad explain white working-class politics. as you know i'm sure white working-class is really important part of the electorat electorate, partly because there a fairly big portion but also because their geographic distribution. a couple of key swingng states. i felt like oftentimes we talk about this group which we do a lot come election season, we can to talk about them as if they were a monolith, the white working class. and so i had this intuition that actually there was a lot of heterogeneity there and that by trying to understand and explain

that we could better understand sort of where we've come from in american politics and where we're going. so to do that in my book i found these very similar white postindustrial cities middle class all of which have democratic coalition but how about different one to turn to the right in the 1970s. another has has been sort of swing city that turned to write in 2016 and i and another still voting democratic today. and then in a few months leading up 2020 president election i spent several months living in those communities and collected hundreds of hours of interviews with community leaders and residents to try to understand what we shaping their politics. i talked to folks working-class voters, middle-class voters with or without college degrees. what i found is its place that was helping to explain why

similar people in different communities were think about politics differently and also helps explain why within each community different kinds of people were thinking the same way. and that sort of conformed another intuition i going into the research which is that the narratives people tell about the lives of really important for the politics that actually politicians and social scientists are kind about it guessing what those narratives will be. so oftentimes we think people are sort of voting the wrong way, not voting in their self interest. i think there's a lot of the kind of risks in that approach to understanding voters and so i hoped that by spending time in those committees and listen to people i couldld better understd what are the forces that are shaping those narratives. what i found is the local organizations that structure to delight i really important for healthy as kind of tell the stories in excess of what our

problems are, who we are his people and where we fit into party politics. >> host: those towns that you visited were in minnesota, indiana and wisconsin. can you tell us a little bit more about them and those forces, committee forces in particular that shape their political direction? >> guest: absolutely. i focus a a lot in the book on both churches and unions in part because these are the organizations that have been central, specific and political life across the industrial heartland. this was true in all three of the t humanities that i study. that's changed a lot. we have known for time churches in unions are in decline in the u.s. the starting point of my book is that the client has been an even acrossbe geography. for that reason i argued these local contacts are important for understanding politics in the heartland because different committees have different organizational resources, different community leaders and

that reallyy matters. to make that more concrete if we take, for example, the community i studied in indiana it's a place where they are still an active well resourced churches and the coordinate with each other and local nonprofits and even local government to try to address social problems as they come up, particularly things like hunger andci homelessness. the residence i spoke to really feel like they live in a christian community that takes care of itself and you don't need more intervention from the federal government nor did he wanted. for them the republican party makes sense. whereas in a wisconsin town i studied it's a bit of an outlier. it still voting democratic and it still has these really politically engaged unions, which is pretty rareag in the 21st century america. those unions are still in backing folks to office who try to pass policies the support organized labor. a lot of the residence i

interviewed think of themselves as part of the community that's been disadvantaged by sort of big structural economic forces. they believe more federal government redistribution will help them in their community. so for them the democratic party makes sense. like i said this community is a real outlier partly because it still voting very democratic in an era when a lot of other largely white postindustrial cities have turned to the right and partly because organized labor movement. i think that community tells us something about both the power and precarity of the labor movement in shaping contemporary politics. strong enough to keep that one town in the democratic fold but it's over one decline probably explains a good part of the reason why a lot of industrial heartland has turned to the right. that was clear and the third and final community i stayed in minnesota where both unions and

churches are still present butll struggling to provide the role of community leadership i saw in indiana and wisconsin. so folks there really feel like their community is dying and really under threat of extinction. as republicans particularly under president trump articulated this narrative of immigrationar and socialism and ten as a threat to that sort of small-town way of life that folks value, that narrative has resonated with some of those folks. >> host: i want to follow up about labor unions because you wrote in "time" magazine that the strength of labor activism directly correlates with support for the democratic party and that has some implications for democrats efforts to make inroads with the white working-class voters. can you explain more about that? >> guest: sure. i think there's a real power to

the organized labor movement side but it is precarious because of organized labor is decline. the powerbo comes from this historically and politically contingent c link between unions and the democratic party that was born during the new deal era. it's contingent. unions have not always been a progressive force in american politics. in the 19 century when they first began they worth n of white men and often viewed women as immigrants and people of caller as like a threat, cheaper labor. i think that's probably not the most effective form of working-class political organization. if you think about the 99% versus the 1% that kind of organization starts dividing the 99% into women and people of caller and white people and gets smaller and smaller and less powerful. what's more important for contemporary politics is if the

labor movement were to take on that exclusionary vision to own your white working-class, then i don't think it would have home in the contemporary democratic party which has a a much more diverse constituency. similarly, democrats haven't always been a friend to organized labor. that begin in the making 30s with fdr and his response to the great depression and a lot of folks have argued that they have failed to lose up to the promise of supportingey organized laborn the decades that followed. those links between the democrats and organized labor have historically been veryin strong, but foror them to proces it requires both an inclusionary vision of working-class mobilization a and a version of the democratic party that is willing to support organized labor in that mobilization and for what it's worth i think the democrats under president biden

have happily made that a priority. >> host: the republicansre are also making maintaining this a priority with especially with former president trump picky as his vice presidential nominee j d. vance. senator vance made a direct appeal for these so-called working-class voters in his acceptance speech at the republican national convention. here's a portion of that. >> president trump's vision is so simple and yet so powerful. we are done, ladies and gentlemen, tailoring to wall street. we will commit to the working man. we are done importing foreign labor. we are going to fight for american citizens and their d jobs and their good wages. we are done by energy from

countries that hate us. we are going to get it right here from american workersrs in pennsylvania and ohio and across the country. we are done sacrificing supply chains to unlimited global trade and we will stand more and more products with a beautiful label, made in the usa. >> host: stephany, was this done and messaging effective, do you think? >> guest: i'll say it was probably effective for certain people in certain places. here's why. i'll take you back to that minnesota town i described where they like you said experienced this widespread civic decline. that's because the event this particularly acute industrial crisis. they lost their largest employer.

the population has declined 20% since the 1980s. that's devastating, chair fine and it makes people like us if you like their commute is dying. i showed up at the ymca to swim one morning and an older man asked whatt he doing here? i've never seen you before. i said inn stating this ten. he said why? you want to know what it's like to live in a dying town? that kind of sense was omnipresent. this idea that there's a party out there that's listening to that feeling of threats and trying to articulate a narrative that appeal to that sort of fear i think is really effective. in a lot of ways senator vance is good at conveying and articulate that narrative because he lived it. the county grew up in experienced that kind of crisis, that kind of decline and so we can really articulate that narrative quite authentically. the only challenge with senator

vance as a running mate is that that wasn't always been heard that he told about his own life. if you read his book has this argument that something like a culture of poverty is going on in these host international community is making people lazy, a lot of it an ambitious, making them make bad decisions and that is one of the big reasons for the challenges in those communities. he has now switched to articulating this other narrative about immigration and socialism and china as threats to those communities, and that seems to be more effective. however, that's not what he was always saying. in a lot of ways he learned more than i learned during my research which is an diss peope tell about their own lives are what matters. so we changed to articulate this new narrative and in that way he is actually an effective and savvy politician.

>> host: we want to take your questions for stephanie ternullo about working-class voters. our numbers fores democrats, 202-748-8000. republicans at 202-748-8001. independents at 202-748-8003. let'sar start with mark in las vegas, nevada, on our line for democrats. good morning, mark. >> caller: hello, professor. i have two questions in particular. one is on demographics. these small towns you're talking about with a shrinking population, then i imagine they tend to skew older. i would like to know with their claim that they don't want nor need federal money. how many of them are on social security and medicare and how much of the roads are supported by the federal government, impact how much of the regulations protecting the water

and all come from the federal government. and how do we break through to them that this idea of self-sufficient -- [inaudible] and the s other is how much they are sucked into the propaganda for like right-wing radio and fox news and sources that, like j. d. vance are feeding them a story that really doesn't, that doesn't accordot with reality, okay? thank you. >> caller: thank you for that question. okay, so two things here. one of the things that i tried to do in my research is take people where they're at. when you talk about the fact the federal government is supporting allng of us in our lives every single day whether that's through roads or social security or medicare, sure, that's absolutely true. when elizabeth one was a candidate she made this clear

claim that the school that taught us, the roads that took us to where we are all kind of been fitting from and participate in and getting back into the big civic and federal government kind of tied together policy? unique people in everyday lives and a lot of scholars have made this argument, when you meet people in their everyday lives those forces often arere not visible to the what's visible particularly industry i studied in indiana is those churches and the nonprofits, and often people are participating in that local sort of civic society and policy in ways that makes them feel they are doing everything possible to take care of each other, and they can see that and they can't see the bigger version of society and politics that's just must less visible to people. we have to take seriously that those things matter, and it's not useful to point the blame at

how can we convince people to think differently? every single week like going to church, volunteering sunday afternoons and wednesday evenings, , that's a big part of their lives. we are not going to convince people to think differently about this lived experience. the second thing you asked was about sort of propaganda on the right. i guess what i will say is i think we are all susceptible regardless of our partisanship to listening to the news, listening to our friends who already agree with us. that does have a polarizing effect on american politics because it makes us even lean further to the right or to the left and that's true of everyone on the right and on the left. i don't think particularly is true for folks in his committees

are republicans in general but also think, this is what i say what is talk about narratives, those messages resonate the most when there akin gump on something that we already believe and have experience in her own lies. lives. the stories where araceli ourselves. that's why i think senator vance message can be affected because it will resonate with people who are worried about a notch is worried about what kind of terrified by this massive loss they have seen all around them. >> host: let's hear from just the nebraska on online for republicans. good morning. >> caller: i grew up in a small town not too far from middletown, ohio. and in the '60s and early '70s middletown was booming. it didn't take but about two or three years and the politicians sold the steel industrial where

armco steel was. and it turned into a ghost town overnight. many, o many people went from prosperous to nothing. it left a large community and that's with the trouble began. it wasn't the people got lazy. that's not what he said. it didn't just turned away because i don't people sometimes do bad things. as far as that goes, that's not what he was saying at all. that's just something you are absurd because you are probably on the other side. i have noy idea, but whatever. >> guest: sure. no, and i think that in "hillbilly elegy" senator vance does of course talk about the decline of armco as central to

happened in middletown and of the community like it and the broader declined of the steel industry. but he does also in several occasions talk about how he observed that of the families were not kind of teaching their kids toei be ambitious, that the were teaching the kids to be lazy. he talks about welfare cheats that he sees all around him. he talks about people making bad decisions in their lives. he credits his grandmother with giving him a kind of ambition and safety to behave differently on his own. all i want to say is i think that of course i do and has agency and we can make our own decisions but when communities have experienced loss on the level of a lot of communities have experienced those losses in the '60s and '70s and '80s like what you described it can

be hard to make quote-unquote good decisions. this is sort of work senator vance arrived into politics and all that iar totally agree with you. he has arrived that we have to provide the kind of economy and communityof in which folks can make the decisions and it's easy to make decisions and they can teach the kids working hard and going to school and building community isid worthwhile. >> host: we received a a question for you on x. i live in indiana. what city did you study? >> guest: that's a great question. so i have, and i get this question all the time. i anonymize the communities in my book and that was largely to prevent the identities of the folks that i spoke to from being revealed so that theyve would fl comfortable talking to me. >> host: let's go to liz in new jersey on our line for

democrats. good morning, liz. >> caller: good morning. i read his book and i also have family ties dating back to right after the american revolution in northwestern pennsylvania is, still a part of appalachia, outsourcing of jobs in such in the last 40 years. what i've seen is the republican party captured the votes of these folks by a combination of culture wars, claiming they are going to work for the middle class but at the same time they are outsourcing the high pay possibly union jobs in this

area, and those that have pension it's a 401(k) and they don't earn enough because they are desperate for jobs to be able to contribute to their 401(k). the churches, they would call themselves evangelical, but they are not regular churches. this is more like a label than a reality, supporting communities through the church. i think this got sort of put on steroids with reaganomics, and that's why we're seeing fraud can't dispirited and is leaking out from the areas that expanded in the '80s. >> host: liz, you're making a lot of interesting points. i want to let staff to respond to some ofre his ideas you brout up. >> guest: yeah, sure.

what you're talking about is a lot of the challenges those communities are facing you are suggesting that maybe some of those challengesre were caused y the republican party. and yet they seem to be voting for the republican party today. other folks might say some of those challenges caused by democrats and yet some of those communities are still voting for democrats today. you are also putting your finger on a really key piece of the challenges some of those committees are facing across the board, which is a decline of organized labor. i've talked a lot about unions as a political force, really relevant to creating working-class politics and the united states. but they're also an economic force and i think we have good evidence they are one of the best tools we have two combat the worst ills of capitalism, to mitigate economic inequality and provide things like good

pensions like what you talking about. i think investing in unions, it's good policy regardless of the politics there. and so i think that could help a lot of these kinds of communities. >> host: let's hear from larry in texas. >> caller: thank you. i have read your book but i've been listening to c-span a lot and we had this lady here speaking about how the republicans take over the rural areas, blah, blah, blah. i would likeer her to do a study on a big the government is, how behemoth that is, how they have their finger in every piece of the pie. and this is what the country was founded on. it was founded on a small national government and the states would do their own thing. versus the guy this talk about

social security. the u.s. government formed the social security. if they miss management, and to make people into it to get extra benefits, and i'm not talking about, i'm talk about wives they get benefits- now. that degrades the amount of money to put everything in the pot called welfare so we know exactly how much welfare we have spent in every department of the government. let's talk about how big the government is. of course joe biden is a big government guy, big spender. let's let the states start doing stuff. thank you. >> guest: thanks for sharing that. i heard a lot of the point of you when i see my research and associate aar lot. i think you are kind of putting your finger on something that really is failure. we were a country founded on

minimizing the control of the central government but then we have also made choices over time, particularly during the great depression and the great societyth eras to shift sr to the federal government. it sounds like that's not a distribution of power that you prefer, that the federal government has grown beginning with the great depression much, much larger but those are choices as a country we have slowly come to make building of those choices over time. it's something that can be debated and we can talk about though sources of power and spending. but i think anytime you do that there's going to be policy trade-offs. if we allow local governments and state governments to administer social security, for example, or a because the social programs, we might then worry states with fewer resources

would not be able to provide the same level of social programs as state resources that i live in massachusetts. it's one of the highest income ice pdb state in the country and so if we shifted sort of the onus of income tax to stay level and away from the federal level and states within administering these programs and worry people in my state would get great benefits by people in alabama with get as good a benefits. that's a word i have but you are raising important questions and their questions i think we can do and forget when we hold elections in we vote for candidates that you are dealt one more federal government control. >> host: we have a question via text from shared in minnesota who says, does the gas that plans to maybe do more study in the same states but with a different cities? i lived in rural minnesota for 40 years. i see towns dying but their politics are republican.

>> guest: sure. i don't have any further plans to study more postindustrial politics. that's what i've been calling it. it. i'm actually working on a book about suburban politics, so think about that as the same but the opposite. still interested in place but focus on suburbs rather than small midwestern cities. i think you are completely right, and in the sense a lot of these communities that have struggled so much but one of the other questions talked about was that massive economic decline in those communities. a lot of those communities, probably most of them, , i voted republican and that is like i said the starting point of my book is that most of those communities are voting republican but that i trying to understand which communities are not but a republican, the places

that a buck that trend like the one that id, studied in wisconsn we can figure out why some places vote democratic and why most place are voting republicans. a lot of it has to do with organized labor helped to keep that one outlier community in the democratic fold and in the absence of organized labor enabling inroads for the republican party in these other host international communities. >> host: let's hear from kathryn in ohio on a line from democrats. good morning. >> caller: thank you for taking my call. i'm 75. my dad was born and raised in jackson city in contacting the same place that j. d. vance was born. for his heritage was from. my stupid dad went to war in world war ii, and he, after he got out of the war that foolish man came to cincinnati and got a job because this is where the jobs were.

and he raised five children. we are now successful. we are not stupid. our children have college educations. and for you to say that j. d. vance is the only person who's ever done this, you are so wrong. a lot of us came from very poor backgrounds, but we have made it. not because of the vans are not because of the government. government didn't buy the a college education. but it did by him one. and i would say this before you hang up on me. i receive a union pension every month, me. this stupid woman that had ancestorss in jackson kentucky. i get a pension. thank god because now i can still stay in the middle class. i don't leave anything to say because you have not talked to people in jackson, kentucky.

if you had you would find out that he is not the exception. what he has done -- >> host: i'm going to let stephanie responded because what you're saying doesn't seem to line up with what i think stephanie was mentioned earlier. i'll let you respond, stephanie. >> guest: i'm so sorry if what you've taken from what i've said is that i think j. d. vance is the exception. i have onlyec the most respect r you and your family for people get union pension. i think more people should be getting union pensions. that's the argument i'm making. i'm making exactly i think the argument you're making, which is sometimes in his book he makes it seem like he sort of to th the exception to the rule with his family was able to succeed in these dire circumstances. what i'm trying to say is that

there's actually a lot of challenges in these communities. a lot of people are thriving and making ends meet. more than making ends meet, like you're saying. but we should consider having politics the ties to support people in all sorts of different communities, including places where they have experienced the kind of losses like middletown has. >> host: dawn is in california underline for independents. overhead. >> caller: stephanie, i wanted to also touch base that we don't hear about the military which is interesting. they show vance having been in the military. i grew up in detroit, and grew up very poor, i would say, compared to, maybe not to men but i've seen a lot of drug addiction. i have seen people in the

vietnam era, didn't want to go to the draft ended up wanting to go and run to canada, and things of that nature. i have a problem with people that told the american flag and talk about those things when i respect the military i believe that this whole campaign between them has evolved to just the american people. as far as working class, but, and thus gotten off this whole military aspect of, i know my family -- >> host: were running short of time butti want to let stephanie responded to the idea of the role of military life and military salaries and maybe how those contribute to these communities. >> guest: sure. i think that the military is

obviously a a big part of our government, a big part of our society and ourd politics. one thing you are getting at here is that people take up the mantle of patriotism for a bunch of different really political causes, partisan causes.fe i gritted with you that can be harmful and as research showing when we're forced to think of ourselves as americans, we tend to be less vitriolic towards the other party. i think it is really important we remember that patriotism is about us sharing in this project in this country and trying to make it better. that can evolve criticism, they can involve vigorous policy disputes like the ones we've been hearing here today, but it should alwaysde be under the umbrella of we are americans and we're all in this together trying to make the country the

best version of itself that it can be. >> host: will have to end it there with stephanie ternullo who is the author of "how the heartland went red." thank you so very much for your time this morning. >> guest: thank you for having me. >> c-span now is a free mobile app featuring your unfiltered view of what's happening in washington live and on-demand. keep up with today's biggest events with live streams of four proceeding in hearings from thee u.s. congress, white house events, the courts, and paints and more from the world of politics all at your fingertips. you can also stay current with the latest episodes of "washington journal" and find schedule information for c-span's tv networks and c-span radio app plus a variety of compelling podcast. c-span now is available at the apple store in google play. scan the qr code to download it for free today or visit our website c-span.org/c-span now. c-span now your front row seat to washington anytime anywhere.

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