weekends on cspan2 are an intellectual feast. every saturday american history tb documents america's story book tv brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors. funding for cspan2 comes in these television companies and more including charter communications. quickstart is proud to be recognized one of the best internet providers and we are just getting started. building 100,000 miles of new infrastructure to reach those who need it most. >> charter communications along with these television companies support cspan2 as a public service. >> authorop jeff you opened your most recent book waco with this quote from rick proceed the

historian. aiv fog of crosscutting motives and narratives the complexity the device storybooks that is usually the way history happens. >> the quote is the most i've ever heard. he does a tremendous job himself and it is true. no happens in the vacuum it's tied to many other things and that is the fascination in research and writing on the narrative nonfiction history. >> and want to read a quote from you as well. this is from 2021 cleburne times review. a lot of people no longer want to buy nonfiction to learn things they want nonfiction books to reflect what they already believe. they want books to reinforce their opinions. they want books that tell them everything they believe is absolutely right and that the

other side is even worse than they thought. >> if you take a look at the bestseller list for nonfiction for the last several years, there are three categories are generally represented. the first, books by political commentators. who are associated in the public mind with one side or the other. talking about how the nation is in danger from the opposition. here is what we've got to do to save the country starting with you watching my network and buying my books. the second category is religious in nature. howod i came to understand god's plan for my life. what god wants us to learn from reading the bible and the third category is what i call the magic button.

ten ways you can make your fortune. nine ways to ensuring and a happy marriage. there are fewer and fewer titles represented on the bestseller list that filled objectives looks at certain aspects of american history. there are still people want to read those is still important to get the history down. that is what i tried to do. >> tell us then, what do bonnie and clyde, wyatt earp, jim jones, david karesh, charles manson have in common people you have written about is there a similar threat to that? >> oddly enough there is. my goal has always been to write books that capture the sweep of american history from the final settling of the west to the present date. and each of these subjects are

iconic. we remember them. people tend to remember them in different ways. a lot of the time they want myth rather than fact i've always thought the facts are far more interesting that anything can be made up. when i pick a subject, let's use it manson as an example let's write about the late 1960s in america. which is in terms of a chaotic time mixed to date look peaceful when we are all living in unison. something that will make readers want toen pick up the book and open it. for better or worse charlie manson represented a lot about the late 1960s the culture at the time for the things people wanted to talk about. write abo book about vincent but the late 1960s. everyone you name is representative a certain era in

america people doing, believing and thinking at the time. now, regardless of your topics and tell me if i'm wrong about this. i find in your writing you treat your subjects and topics with respect. that is what struck me. >> thank you for saying that. i think the worst thing you can do if you want to write a book about some aspect of history go into it thinking you already know everything you need to know about it. you've earned it formed opinions about everyone you're going to write about that are unshakable. people who take that approach are really only telling readers what happened. some dates, some names, and why they happened and what things w earlier might have precipitated the events that bring about bonnie and clyde short to your

state of crime. if you've do that you may not agree with the people who are the subject of the book. you can at least demonstrate an understanding of what they then become what they were. i only get a better sense of them but a better sense of the time they lived in. if you can do that i think the book has succeeded. >> outcomes of bonnie and clyde i almost felt sorry fort bonnie because most of that two years she was in pain o for being shot in a writing round and a ford through undeveloped america. quickset is what i mean about mythology per there is a wonderfuler movie 1967 , 68 abot bonnie and clyde it was fascinating. you watched it, you are gripped by it at least 5% of it was historically accurate. it was a fine movie but it was

entertainment. bonnie parker is a poor girl coming from a dreadful slum. her dream is to be famous to be aa world famous actress. people did not come from actresses were bonnie lived. she was tiny. she was the brightest pupil throughout her school years. but girls in those days did not matter how smart they were. she wanted fame, she wanted attention. and for a poor kid when she got together with clyde in the newspapers needed something to write about besides the depression and farm foreclosures, here's the romeo and juliet of crime. pulling off their daring robberies and high-speed escapes. and they were bumbling criminals. they did not rob banks much because they were not sophisticated enough to do it.

we look at the aspects of poor kids had no other option in life does not forgive the crimes they committed. people died that's horrible. but at least it let's us understand why to them it was the obvious and the only way out of thean poverty stricken lives there going to be living otherwise. >> and these same lights, how did a movie and the mythology develop around the okay corral? was it that big of a deal? >> it was a big deal in the ways it's remembered. let's first state the obvious. it was not a shoot out it was a police stop to take a couple weapons that went bad. and it did not happen in the okay corral.

but, when western history became a thing in america around the turn of the 20th century , hundreds, that masterson who we remember seeing on tv with a bowler hat and a cane and was actually a gambler, and a buffalo hunter turned journalist made his living writing these wonderful tales of authentic western heroes that still walk among us. when he picked was wyatt earp who it had a checkered past at the shooter at the okay corral put the guns drawn around all the horses and everything else. bodies ofn aligned with the oky corral really meant was this was a time when the survivors the brothers and doc holliday were brought to trial for people dying at their hands using guns.

while they were acquitted the case got great coverage and it really sent a message out to the front tier. before you couldse the excuse if you pulled your gut and killed somebody i thought is goingo kill me so i went first. this meant law had come to the tier were going to be there to stay. that's what was important about the subsequent trial okay corral was popular mythology that happed that masterson sell his stories to a lot of newspapers, form the basis of a bunch of movies that people still like watching to this day. but it was not really what happened. >> how is it wyatt earp came felt known over a virgil who was the sheriff? >> wyatt earp his law

enforcement days was never, as would like to s say in texas, te head honcho parties where the deputies who had to do all the work the sheriff didn't want too. but why it was working for the town of wichita and law enforcement his job was scraping dead animals up off the street and thead sidewalk. but, why it was friends with the notorious doc holliday pretty can give doc credit he was notorious even in his own time. when he looked right this tall l striking handsome man who was greatly ambitious. he wanted to be r rich. he f wanted to be famous, he wanted to be well-known. in his later years after his name had becomers familiar to readers across the country through the newspaper articles, he worked to try toom get his memoir out to take advantage of that. and so the marketing of wyatt

earp is greatly responsible for this shows we remember today. the truth is so much more interesting than multidimensional man who, like all of us had had his good points and bad points. but determined to make something of herself. the only regret at the end of his life was he was about too really get famous but he did not make any money out of it. >> sitting here in tucson we are 45 minutes, and our from tombstone, arizona? the founding of tombstone how to become of town? >> tombstone was one of those towns across the frontiers of america in thatra there were great mineral deposits discovered in tombstone's case, silver. the pesky apaches had been moved out or at least partially moved out. and so the minors came in.

they found the place and settled in and began producing large quantities of valuable minerals against silver and tombstone mostly. this is when they all came rolling in. you needed a restaurants, and you needed bars where they could drink.k. you needed ladies of the evening so they could have a little companionship. and they would die out within a few years when the mineral deposits were all used up. tombstone lasted a little longer than that. for a lot of people it's their chance to go to where the old west still really exist. the >> shootout at the okay corral people love going to tombstone.

wast it like a tourist attraction? what to say this for respect for the people in the town who have managed to survive and even thrive by making use of the things that happened there. for a wild west history buffs it's the equivalent of disneyland. you can go there, you can meet larger-than-life characters you can have a couple thrill ride so to speak and you can feel like you are back and they are just like it was. except there's nobody's going to shoot you in the back. theree is no drunken minors is staggering around and there's no dead animals in the street. >> one of the things about the last gunfight that struck me as every western town you charted and researched had gun laws. at that pointn there were no handguns allowed in the city limits.--

>> one of the things i firmly believe is that history is cyclical until we make a final effort. during the time of the herbs and tombstone these were the great debates of the day. government, how much of it did we need? how much of our lives should government stay out of? immigration, we cannot have these people crossing american borders and taking jobs away from real americans. as gun control this is my gun. if i want to wear it in town who are you to say i can't? and yet the very people today who idolize the old west would think we could stroll around downtown with her six shooters strapped to both thighs with my trusty winchester shotgun across my shoulder. they had gun laws. you were not allowed to bring your gun into town. you had to check it because they

knew a combination of liquor, macho tendencies, people who wanted to prove how tough they are. if you havee guns, bad things ae going to happen. so they would not allow the guns. the nra would not last in our an old tombstone when virgil was in charge. i think the nra does not mention thatat in its popular literature yet it is a fact. these issues that were splitting america apart in the 1880s we have still got them. and the reason we g do is we dot look back at history, see wheree all of this began, that gives us to decide we now have to stop and get some common sense gun laws, lord laws regarding immigration and we have to have

some national assessment. some agreement how much should government is necessary in our lives. we really don't have these. we have people lashing out and screaming at each other. so, 100 years from now our grandchildren may very well be saying can you believe inn grandpas time in the 2020s they were talking about the same things were talking about now? immigration, gun laws, a permitted intervention. if we are going to stop we have to go back to genesis and say okay this is what we have to do otherwise were going to repeat this again. cork seen her next book manse in the life and times of charles manson, what was your goal with that book? so much as been written about him in this did not come out so 2013. >> charlie manson in his lifetime was always the wrong man in the right place at the right time. ip hadt committed the crimes he was originally jailed for a think he was the most

incompetent in the history of american prostitution. he was a smalltime car thief. if charlie had been jailed in nebraska let's say and he suddenly had reappeared in downtown omaha claiming to be a prophet andka handing out drugso kids who were looking for somebody to tell them what to do, locals would've stuck amount of pitchfork and put them out in the field as aul scarecrow. but just in the time in american life or california it was where everyone young in america was looking for inspiration. i was in college in austin, texas all i could think of was why can't i be in san francisco or los angeles where the culture is great, the music is wonderful the philosophy is there. manson gets out of prison and ends up in barkley, california hotbed of protests and then he goes across the bay to san

francisco. these were places where young kids flocked. they were looking for gurus like the beatles had. i found people who knew manson at this time they would describe how manson would go to golden gate park work every day there would be dozens of self-appointed gurus he wouldld preach to the kids gathered around them. all of. the kids hoping they wee going to hear some great wisdom. charlie would coal two or three things that seem to be very effective and then he'll go to the free clinic were sick kids were jammed in the lobby and he would preach to them they're getting his patter down then he would go back to golden gate and proclaim himself a prophet. it worked enough of some ragtag kidsth that they decided charlie was some great profit. maybe even a religious figure.

he made sure they had all the drugs they wanted. and he pursued his dream of musical superstardom which did not happen. i don't know if you've ever heard neat manson tapes he made at the time? i had a son who wanted to be a musician he and some other sixth-graders formed a garage band before our neighbors asked us toad close it down or move i. that was charlie manson's level of music sophistication. it was never going to happen. but only in that place and at that time could he have gained the followers he did and been able to talk them into committing a couple horrific crimes that just at that moment caught the attention of the country. there is a newspaper war in l.a. the papers were who could have the most lurid story about the murders today. that brings in the national media.

hence charlie manson mythology springs up this evil little hippy man with great powers hate was that he was a scrawny little thug. but we remember him differently and remember himim differently because of the times he lives and that is why i wrote the book. >> is an image stuck in my head from 1969 -- 1970 of charlie manson and susan atkins, leslie, patricia van houtman, three women who were part of his gang. it is stuck there in time. >> of course it has it's very dramatic. i spent a lot of time with leslie van houston and patricia researching thet book through corona, california women's prison for life. they will never get out because a note california governor wants to be the one to let any of the manson family out on the world. but, they remember the whole

trial. vince of course is the prosecutor and he writes the fabulous true crime book helter-skelter which sold over 9 million copies in the years since. for charlie, it's what he dreamed up he is the center of international attention. and every day before the trialed trialopen and the media came in, charlie, his lawyers and the three women who were on trial with him convene for strategy sessions. and charlie would say i'm going to do this outrageous thing today and when i do it i want you three women to jump up and say this. he orchestrated every step of it. if he had gone into selling vacuum cleaners instead of crime, he might have been a multimillionaire. but, he had an image and he told them. he told these women that he was going to play crazy charlie.

the knot case. at -- the nut case until it became so obvious that he was too crazy to be incarcerated for the crimes. but, they did not see the crazy charging just charlie. they saw the calculating charlie. having them gives us a whole different insight. again, why write books about history that don't bring something new that gives us a greater understanding. i didn't knew much about manson and when i finished i didn't admire him but you had to shake your head at some to have talents thiss man had. >> what was it like sitting across the table from leslie and patricia knowing what they had done? >> you're not allowed in that prison if you're visiting them

to bring pad and pen or recording device so i would spend a day interviewing one or the other. they are not friends at this point anymore and weren't going to sit at the same table and talk to me at the same time. >> and they are hold ladies, basically? >> that's one of the shocks, we remember them frozen in time in a wayr: they still are, leslie, popular pretty girl in high school you've got to rememberhe's 20 when all of this happens and she still has the little girl gestures. when she's talking to you she plays with her hair, she giggles and reaches out to pat your hand like pretty flirtatious girl in high school. patricia, old woman now who spends her days in prison training rescue dogs to be guide dogs for the blind, she will not

remind you as you see her of anybody dangerous. and she's telling me about stabbing abigail on the lawn of the house at cielo on the night of the first murders and she's remembering how it doesn't hurt your hand unless you hit bone and then your hand really hurts and i went back to motel and i was trying to transcribe as best i could, it's about 3 in the morning when i finished, i tried to go to sleep and i couldn't and for months afterwards my wife would wake me up in the middle of the night because i was screaming, i was having a nightmare about women with knives coming toward me. it's not easy hearing what people say but you have to listen what they're saying, if

they're honest enough to really come out and tell you these things then you better not go, i don't want to hear, you have to hear it and write it in such a way that the reader is sitting right there with you, hearing someone tell you this thing. >> it was difficult, they think if they admit what they did it would have late with the parole. it took a little while. i spent five weekends doing interviews but once people feel like they are having a conversation that somebody is

listening, then they tell their stories a little differently. the trick is not to say to someone, tell me about this god awful crime you committed. i mean, does it keep you awake nights? people don't want confrontational questions, can you help me understand how this happened, what brought you to this point, everyone wants to explain and there again is the challenge of the historian, make people comfortable enough to try to help you understand their viewpoint. now, that doesn't mean readers, read the manson book o, my god, patricia, i hope they parole and they are my murdered and doesn't forget horrific crime. that's when the story really

matters. i've never been categorized of a of certain time of history and i never wanted to be known as cult writer because i don't think there's a generic type of cult and for manson and thee manson people, the people's temps, david karesh there's similarities and great differences but having written about the late 1960's i wanted to learnrn more because, again, i'm 18, 19, 20, growing up now, how do we segue from the chaos of the late 60's into let's go with' ronnie reagan and conservatisms, sweeping the country in the 70's, what has

to happen? two scene that is would resonate with readers, one was watergate. i knew there was nothing to bring to watergate, whatever to bring about that was there and the other is peoples temple and what happened in jones town supposedly the prime example of when i some charlatan and don't drink the kool-aid is part of our lexicon. i thought, well, could there be something in that and i started poking around and i learned two things, first of all, it wasn't kool-aid, it was a cheap knockoff called flavor aid and as many of thehe third of the people who died in jones town didn't voluntarily drink it. they were forcibly inject sod that it was mass murder and the second thing was if jim jones

had been hit by a car and killed he would be considered one of the civil leaders. some people say i wouldn't be alive without jim jones and peoples temples, how could he change into what he began, how could he have attracted attention at this time in america and why would he driven overseas by bad press decide on final end, story, way of demonstrating disdain so i didn't think to myself writing cult, book about someone who unexpectedly that i'm like manson that accomplished a great deal. how does that sit together?

>> jeff, the survivors, the people who left the peoples temple, do they still hold informal reunions in november? >> the surviving of peoples temple are your extended family, up until a few years ago every year they would all come together around labor day not just to comfort with other but know that were with other people that would understand theyth wee treated with such great disdain when they survived jones town. you're the kool-aid idiots, what's the matter, weren't you thirsty that day. what kind of fool are you that you can follow someone like jim jones? the people who joined and follow jim jones didn't materially benefit from anything. he was using his church and when

i say church i use quotation marks because it was really meant as an institution to bring about social change racial equality, gender equality. they came to give rather than get and they got sucked into something worse. they don't understand what happened. i will say this, i've written 25 books now, when i did the road to jones town, when i was done, i had about a dozen lifelong friends, formerer members of peoples temple, most intellectually culturally concerned people you could meet anywhere. they are wonderful.

>> welcome afternoon, welcome to monthly in-depth program, this month we are at the tucson festival of books in arizona and our guest is historian and investigative reporter jeff guinn, we want to make sure you're involved in this program as well. we will be taking your phone calls this afternoon along with text y messages a-- and any socl media comments that you'd like to make. if you want to send a text, (202)748-8903, we will also scroll through our social media

sites at book tv is our handle. jeff guinn, we will get to a couple of the other books but i want to go from jonestown to your most recent book waco, february 1993, what happened? >> david karesh live in a large sprawling housese that they call mount caramel on a hill outside of wacko texas, they pretty much keep to themselves, they literally believe in every word in the bible and they believe that david b karesh is the bookf revelation and he and his followers are about to bring the end of times from the book of revelation by battle thing forces of babylon and come to

the attention of atf, alcohol, tobacco part-timer for being in possession of semiatmatic weapons that had been convert today automatic weapons.s. there's nothing illegal about doing that in 1993 if you registered a weapon and paid a tax. , disgroundled former branch had made claims to atf that that were left were quite likely to take some of the automatic weapons, the ones they didn't sell at gun shows and descend to wacko or some other place and slaughter innocent people as the means of bringing in the government, bringing about the end times of the bible. atf thought it was not acting

but public safety, they thought it was the easiest operation, someone clearly to them was a fraud. they planned, did atf, the budget hearingsss were coming up in march and they wanted to film the whole thing and prove to senators and congressmen that theys weren't blood thirsty people trying to wipe out gun innocentnt owners. the branch knew they weree coming, they were waiting, horrible 3 hour fire fight six of the branch died, 16 more more wounded, almost a third of the agents making the raid, a long

siege, the fbi lost patience, on april 19th, they decided they would insert teargas supposedly gradually to smoke the branch over a couple of days instead they filled the corridors of mount caramel with great clouds of gas, a fire broke out, the all the branch in there died, horribly except for nine who escaped all adults, and that became genesis in all the controversies afterwards that clearly ledam to violence of innocence every since, it's not just the mount caramel story to tell but the consequences. the branch dividiends, the

adventist. >> were started in 1920's by by adventist who believe as all adventist that you had to live by the rules of the bible and sometime in the reasonable near future the end of days would come when christ would judge everyone and the only people who would survive that judgment and go onto live in the new great kingdom of god would be the ones who had strictly adhere today the scriptures. how to believe that 27th adventist had gotten too worldly when their leadership didn't agree, he and his followers split off and they moved to waco, texas because land was cheap there and they wanted room for all the souls that were going to be saved on the last days to be able to gather together. they kept to themselves when they tried to recruit new members it was mostly from

seventh adventist churches, they believed that only people who had gotten through that church, that faith wouldle be able to qualify if they strengthened up. a couple of different profits followed victor after his death, one was a middle-aged woman lola, she took as her disciple a young stammering bubbling young guy from houston named vernon wayne howe under her -- he had to take the name koresh, he was the lamb of the book of revelation. he was going lead his followers into the final epic fight with babylon, the end of days is

coming soon and it's coming now and we are the ones to do it. it was biblical literalist and whatever we talk about today this is what we must remember, they firmly believed and the survivors still today still believe that that the god they believed in had told them through his profit david karesh what they must do and they would do it even if secular said no because god's law is the only true law, whatever else we may think was all the things that happened, they sincerely devoutly believed they were doing the work of god. i really had to work to learn that and accept it before i could start writing about their perspective on things. and if you read the book, it down mean that they did what was

right but at least you'll know why they did things and how, the really critical elements of history. >> charles manson, jim jones, vernon wayne howe, aka david koresh not very good child? >> no, but it is also true that children with much worse childhoods don't grow up to proclaim themselves prophets and lead people to their deaths. manson didn't want my book to come out when he found out i traced sister and cousin and would be able to write about his somewhat pampered childhood. jim jones had an odd childhood but he was always loved, vernon wayne howell was foreign a 14-year-old girl and was raised with uncles and step dads, but he never wanted for food or

attention. >> how many children of david koresh survived and why so many? >> david koresh children, all told he fathered 23 children by just about a dozen women. he said that the bible quoted that the lamb shall spread his seed so the lamb of revelation can't be jesus because he didn't havela jesus so vernon, the lamb had to have children and obviously he couldn't have those with one wife and that these

his were really old souls being born again and when the end times came, they would be the magistrates of the book of revelation will help rule over the new kingdom of god. 3 of his children were out of mount caramel by the time the atf operation took place, their twoe mothers had become disenchanted taking the children with them. during the siege itself he sent out other children from mount caramel but never his children. he sent out the children of followers, but he fully expected his followers expected they're going to have to die here. the fbi, atf previously are doing what thee bible predicted so their children, the little children of the followers can be

sent out two or three at a time because they don't have any vital role coming but koresh's children have to stay and koresh's children burn to death on april 19, 1993 and this one of the big mistakes the fbi made. they never bothered to learn what the branch davidinas in and koresh what they believed, they called it bible babble, delusion and wouldn't talk to them about it because we are buying into their delusion if we do that. they did not know though child welfare workersrs in waco try today tell them that koresh isn't sending his own children out, he's letting the kids out, he'll send more, he's not sending his children out, that means he has some plan for a

grand finale but the fbi didn't listen, they just said kids are out, maybe it's working. think of how horrible that is, your followers of koresh, surrounded by tanks for god's sake, you expect any minute you're going to be blown to smithereens and you're pleased. this means david's prophecies are correct, we are going to be translated up to heaven and come back in the army of jesus. if the fbi knew that, you think maybe they wouldn't have finally decided after seven weeks, okay, we are just going to go and knock them down, they're not going to be able to stop us? everybody misunderstood everybody else and chaos inevitable followed. >> jeff guinn, did you have good

results talking to survivors, dissidents of the branch davidians. >> only nine adults escaped. i talked to five and had a phone conversation with another one who is living in england now who hated the questions i was asking, he decide that i was sent by d the devil. these people, the survivors, to this day believe that david koresh really was the lamb, that everything he said was true, that the things that happened to waco really are the beginning of the end times that'll happen any minute, that david is going to return just likee he promised. they do not regret what they believe strongly, they were living for god, they are still living for god. i talked to them, they were very

open, very helpful. i feel like we had pretty good relationships. then the book came out, in it, i print what they say, but i also print the fact that vernon wayne howell, david koresh stole and plagiarized from earlier koresh a hundred years ago word for word and these are people that 30 years sustained themselves by languaging onto this belief, this is what they built their lives t around and here comes this outsider who said, look, i respect you, but someone who wasn't what he said he was.. now it's not likely they are going say thank you, they haven't. identify got all the facts of the book and i invited please check for yourself, don't take my word for it, they're not doing that. they don't feel they have to because they know the truth and the truth is what david said, no

matter what i may think of you shall covered. >> we are talking with historian and investigative reporter jeff guinn on book tv. now it's your turn, we want to hear your voices as well. we will put the phone numbers up and we will hear from glen who is calling from freeland, michigan, glen, good afternoon to you. >> thanks, everyone. my question is about manson and narrative by narrative with the capital and, for example, the jesse smollet which was quite obvious ridiculous yet lots of people immediately uncritically accepted and promoted it including the current president and vice president of the united states and that was because it served a bigger narrative about racism and homophobia and blah,

blah, blah, in the case of manson and his abusive childhood, until you came along, jeff, pretty much the entire world uncritically accepted the story that he was a victim of his family and society at large and all that even john lennon of the beatles bought into it. why do you think that was? do you think -- what if any larger narrative do you think was being a served by this sortf blind faith and this fictionalized narrative of manson's -- >> glen, i think we got it. we appreciate that and that kind of goes back to where we started our conversation about the methodology of american events. >> you've got to remember that in 1968, in 1969 in america anything seen possible that would have seemed impossible just a few years before, you had

young people radically changing previously in america the kids were going grow up to be like their parents and all of a sudden you're finding young people thinking it's not only all right to be disrespectful, it's necessary because we need to h make things better. you've got music becoming the cultural touch stone instead of books, instead of tv. for thein first time you've got national news that's broadcast pretty much on a 247 basis but you can condition, a man that walks on the moon, richard nixon comes back from obscurity to become presidentar of the united states, there's riots in the streets, civil rights, there's everything going crazy and

people want something that they can blom on the and see in it what they want to see. charley manson provided that, he was a very protean sort of figure and nixon got into hot water because he said in a news conference that it's obvious the man is guilty and why is the news media glorifying that him and that, of course, gave manson say the president said this, we need ath mistrial, he didn't get that.. student rebels all thought that manson was great. bernadet te dorn, they had gesture. this was the times of the fork, if you wanted to believe manson was like ché guevara you could

believe that. if you wanted to believe that hippy was gusting dangerous, you could believe that. sex, drugs, rock and roll and entertainment, you could have that. manson fit so well into that time when every headline anyway was sensationalistic in some way that he served the nation's need for something to believe in and all different categories could see in him what they wanted. that's the fascination of the 1960's in charlie manson that we were at a time and place where someone like him could mean so many things to so many different people. >> corneli us from louisiana.

>> hello, jeff and peter, god bless both of y'all. now, jeff, i'm going bring up two issues, being african-american and you know the story -- >> i'm sorry, you broke up there. >> yeah, corneluis, keep your mouth close to your phone. >> okay, can you hear me now? >> yeah. go ahead. >> okay. do you know the story of the long ranger? >> yes, i do. i grew up to be tanto. >> that's great. look, there is a guy named bash reeves and he was asking american marshal in the oklahoma territories and stuff and that's what the real lone ranger was based upon. i saw a smithsonian museum show

and they had clayton moore's daughter or granddaughter talking about that, he had an indianan companion and he worked for the hanging judge in the oklahoma territories but he was an escaped slave and everything after the civil and he headed toward oklahoma and they said he was greater than masterson, so i would love you to do -- >> let's get a comment from jeff guinn, thanks, corniluis. >> studying history, researching writing about it is important andd to particularly minority americans have been so misrepresented throughout history there's a feeling right now h that if you're a white historian you can't properly understand andnd write about minority figures in history. i hope that changes just as i hope we will have more minority writers writing about white

subjects, we will all understand each other better. reese is an amazing character. look this man up, you will be fascinated by his life and times. >> and there is the connection to the lone ranger? >> very much so. >> let's move ontoo carl in chicago, carl, go ahead with your question or comment? >> yes, i want to comment and a question. i accidentally met the jones town boys some time after the incident because they were flying from new york city to dayton where i lived then, to return home i went to indiana. my question is why do humans have such a fascination with cults?

>> that's a fair question. i think the best way to answer it is that the word cults is misused. we tend now, we are in the habit, it really started with manson through jim jones, through the branch davidians, any time there's a group that sort of separates themselves and may have some religious belief that is not mainstreamed it's easy too say oh, they're cults, they're probably not very bright and they're following some fraud, that's not the case at all, but because mythology is so strong a lot of the media picks up on it and puts it out there and that just intensifies the feeling. the manson family had nothing in common with people's temple, had nothing in common with the branch davidinas. cults is widely misused and that'sed the reason people make assumptions about what a cult must be.

>> jim jones' son survived, correct? >> a couple of them, yes. >> did they talk to you? >> jim jones, jr. i'm proud to say is one of my best friends in this world. he calls himself the first black child adopted by a white family in indiana. jim jones and his wife want todayse develop a rainbow family that is their preaching equality of the races, let's adopt children of different. races so we can show everyone can live together in harmony and jim and stephen whod is the only blood child of jim and marceline jones is still alive. i'm certainly much closer to jimmy thanot stephen who is very reluctant to speak to outsiders. we arere talking about good intelligent people who have become the kind of american citizens we all aspire to be involvedas in their communities,

have loving families, they managed, they had rough times, they got through it. gun, with cults we always think anybody who is involved, what must they be, they must be morans absolutely not the case. you have highly intelligent people who have been looking for like-minded others that they can feel comfortable with. and jimmy and steven have very well adapted now to the world as it is but they were there when their father was faking miracle, healing cures, they saw him during his drug usage, they understood what a flawed person he was but they also saw the people's temple itself, the causesle were very just that thy were working towards. they say and it's true as jim jones deteriorated into drug addiction and paranoia people

stayed in people's temple not because they thought he was a god or great man because they thought the goals of the temple encountered, we will to this instead of his leadership. i would say to anybody who met them, you'd like them, you'd learn a lot from them, i've learned a great dealem from cult members and grown because of it. >> jeff ginn, is it a fluke that both jim jr. and steve are alive today? >> yes, jim and stephen were part of the jonestown basketball team that had been allowed to leave jonestown by which by the way is buried in the middle of the impenetrable jungle to get in there, they had to charter a plane, land in the middle of the jungle, a little mud landing

strip and use machete to cut a couple c of biles to find where this had happened. the guyanese government tolerated jones town but were noton necessarily enthralled wih jim jones himself. the idea that jonestown would have a basketball team that could go into georgetown, the guyanese capital and play against exhibition team maybe that'll help so jimmy and stephen and some of the other young men from jonestown were in georgetown when the big moment came, congressman and couple of members of the news media were killed, jim jones gathered everyone together to die as a political gesture and he called the sort of office they had in georgetown and jimmy was -- took the call.

and his father used code words, kill yourself. and jimmy and stephen, no, we are not doing that. do it. and there were some followers who were there in the building who really still believed in jim jones. one woman took a knife and killed herself and her children. jimmy and stephen thinking well, maybe before he has everybody die in jonestown he will do one of his four hour can he rememberons, went raise to go the american embassy to see, can we get a helicopter, can we get a small plane, if we can get there we can stop this, you know, we will go stand right next to him, no, you can't do this, the embassy was closed for the night and no one would talk to them because they thought peoples temple were weird

americans. >> government response to both johnstown and to waco did not save lives? >> no, it didn't. though there are different circumstances in both cases. jim jonesse had gone to gayana o jones town after his reputation in america had been literally destroyed by some investigative reporting that indicated a lot of negative things about his ministry people had not known before, bute he was still considered by the government to

be legitimate. there was going to be a congressional investigation because relatives of some of his followers and peoples temple complained family members were being held against their will. whether they were or not is questionable. but when that government pressure came, when a congressman simply chose to show up pretty much and say i'm coming in, i'm going to inspect, maybe two dozen of the people in jonestown really wanted to leave and if jones had said, fine, everybody is free to go, there still-- would have been over nie hundred people there but jones was a drug addict paranoid and he believed if we let one come in and take a couple of dozen people, another one will be here next week, he will take more people and soon everybody is going to be gone. that's why he decided, got to kill the congressman and we are

all going to die here as a gesture. >> and, of course, just to remind everybody, congressman jackie spier who just retired by congress was leo mccarthy's assistant was shot when she was down there in 1978. >> the branch davidians, one thing i have to remind people of is that there's three groups involved in what happened in waco really, we have the atf, the fbi and the branch davidians that ended horribly and it didn't have to end the way it did but for atf and the fbi, the best result would have been a clean operation not a shot fired, nobodyy dies, we come out looking great, only the branch davidians required people to die andnc that's a fact and we shouldn't forget it. >> mike, detroit, please go ahead with your question or comment for our guest jeff

guinn. >> yeah, jeff, great to hear you, you're a real historian. it's good to listen. and, you know, i wondered i lived in arizona and i lived in missouri and one thing that struck me about say the situation with tomb stone, civil war actually brought because the conflict there you had the former union soldiers, the texans, the cowboys who were texans and even the father -- the father was abolitionist and so it just seems like the war never ended from border states to 20 years later until that generation just kind of died out, you know. you know, that's a great observation. up until the civil war most of

the pioneers hitting out west are coming from the northeast because there's so little available land, they want to go and become landholders, have farms and ranches, after the civil war the majority of the people coming west to make their fortunes are former citizens of the confederacy who want to get away from the hated union so now suddenly in the southwest, in arizona particularly you have people moving in trying to get away from any government control. the government shouldn't tell us what to do. we came here to avoid that. then you get people like the urps, particularly morgan who identified with the unions, the law and order, we have to have laws about your cattle herds and where you can get your cattle and you can carry your guns and where you can't carry guns and taxes were a big issue too.

if i'm a former confederate soldier who lost an arm and i come to arizona to make a new life, i don't want some yankee fighting on the other side that day to be the sheriff and telling me that some of my cattle looked suspicious and i'm just going take your whole herd to make sure. so this tension, the civil war certainly exacerbated and brought the conflict into a different area of america where the tension is going to continue to rise, so great point, sectional rivalry is really important, regional rivalry, i'm really glad that you raised that subject. >> what is your favorite cinematic or tv adaptation of the wyatt story? >> i know that i should say something deep and thoughtful about this but, you know what i loved the most was the star trek

episode where kirk and spock and some of the crew end up back in tombtomb. i think there are a quite a future views that are great entertainment and may sacrificed historic fact and i'm hoping some day somebodyce will say les make a movie but let's make it realistic but in the meantime may the force be with you for asking the question, gary. >> comment called history touches our lives just by absolute chance i was having lunch at lbj ranch with lady bird johnson and a group from the wild flower center, i was magazine editor and we were doing a story and very quietly during that lunch a woman came in bent down over mrs. johnson

and i was sitting next to her and told her what had happened at waco. memory in my mind. she said, thank you very much, she went on with her obligation of what we had but i could see in he is fair and body language her distress and on the point, just another point, this happens to be the selma march anniversary and again how history can touch one's lives, my husband and i were married by the reverend james in washington, d.c. and the most wonderful man, so those are my comments and i'm enjoying this wonderful historian who we all need to love them to cherish them and to promote them in any way we can. thank you. >> nancy, you've dropped a couple of names and historical

events, can you tell us a little bit about yourself. >> yes, h i can. i was a magazine editor. i founded a magazine for the hearst corporation in 1987 but my background i have master degrees of american history and i've been observer and i was also an editor for american heritage for a short period of time and colleague of david mccullough. those are some things about me. >> are you associated today with iowa state university? >> my husband is still -- my husband is retired, however, he is still associated with the university because he has been involved with the foundation that maintains the beautiful -- but he had a 30-year career. we are both now retired.

and givingg our papering. >> thankr: you, ma'am. jeff ginn, any comment for nancy? >> it's wonderful that we have people who not only care about history but active part of it. good for her and thank you for sharing the story about lady byrd johnson f lady bird had been in charge of agencies in waco we never would have had the tragedy. >> i know that you live in fort worth and you and i were talking about the george w. bush library and you told a very fascinating little story that i think nancy and others might like to hear. >> well, people always ask when did you really get interested in history and one important moment when i was a sophomore at the university of texas at austin, they began building the lbj library on campus and linda johnson retired to ranch in the

hill country would come on campus by helicopter with his assistant, doris goodwin and some family or friends and when the museum opened he would take them on little tours around talking about different things. johnson wouldhe allow some of us college students,t maybe 3 or 4 at a time to join his group and over a dozen times i was able to follow lyndon a johnson around s museum and hear him talking about this event or that event, what he said to martin luther king at this moment, how he called george wallace at one point i know that you think yours, you refer to testicles but i got bowling balls and hearing these stories and seeing that there's some great historic

figure who's real makes me want to know more and that's what i dedicated a lot of my career. to thank you very much lyndon johnson, every time i see a bowling ball i l think of you, sir.. >> i hope the story goes viral, that was a great point. this was a text message from gf from colorado springs. jeff, i'm a sucker for horses and gun smoke, i like westerns, i'm puzzled by the fact that none of your books which i've read contain any footnotes, sources,ur documentations, can u help me understand that? >> if you'ree saying that you haven't read my chapter notes. i'm very careful to try to list everything. i would urge you to go back and look again, thank you. >> next call for jeff guinn is from rick in providence, kentucky. >> thank you very much for taking my call. my question is about waco.

at the end to have operation when, i guess, the final assault, i guess it would be called happened, did attorney general reno and president clinton both have to sign off on that or was that just a station clearly made from the local level? thank you very much. >> that's -- thanks for asking that question because an interesting story attaches to it. janet reno had only been sworn into office approved by the senate in the middle to have waco standoff, when the fbi had taken over. the fbi brought to her a written plan to end the siege. their idea was they would insert gas, teargas, gradually over two days do mount caramel and everyone inside their eyes would become irritated and finally get up with it they would come out.

reno approved this plan only after she was assured that the amounts of gas would not be dangerous particularly to the children still inside the compound. she called in the experts from the army to go over the plan before she finally said, yes, this is what you can do and she did take that plan to president clinton who also approved it. what is a fact is that she believed because the gas itself that is not dangerous or combustible except in great quantities but what happened on april 19th, started at 6:00 a.m. is almost immediately the fbi fired all of its gas canisters was supposed to last two days instead 3 to 4 hours and great

floatingt gases permeated and t was a coldic rainy sort of sprig in waco, for warmth the branch davidians had lanrns with oil and theuds themselves were almost bound to explode if the flame was initiated. to this day, the question of the fbi deliberately set the fire, was it accident when a lantern knocked over, did the branch davidians decided to commit group suicide, they would have called it translation to heaven. the fbi should not have done what it did with that gas, there's no question. after that t reno felt betrade d she said to congress and the media that she was lied to. the fact remains that that it

was done and so we can say reno and clinton approved the plan and they did but not that plan, so as you can see it's sort of a gray area. >> your 2019 book vagabonds however was true thatt thomas edison, henry ford, all went camping together? >> this is one of my favorite books i've ever written because it was so much fun. now, before the vega bonds as they called themselves their camping trip started and they would take their cars and a procession of trucks, hauling foods, tents and other comforts and simply go out on roads of america for weeks long trips. the purpose of it in some ways was recreatio but it was also anye marketing. when the first model t's were introduced to the country and

all of a sudden your family can afford a car, people generally thought of cars as transportation to and from work. ford wanted the nation to understand that a car was freedom, there was no reason not to go out on a family car trip and over about a 12-year period because they were the most famous men in america and the media covered every day of all their trips, we switched from sort of a horse and buggy or railroad culture to a car culture when. when theyy started their trips, there's about 800,000 cars in america. by the time they finished, there's millions of cars and well over half of them are model t's but edison and ford were great pals, they really love going out together and roughing it, of course their idea of roughing it the servants would

cook nice meal and wash clothing so they can have clean clothing the next day. they've actually got the tents and the cars that the vagabonds used. there's no blood and cuts involved. i really enjoyed the break from writing about tragedy. it's a wonderful story. i hope more people getou to lean about it. this was in the early 20's that the 3 men sold tires and built cars and built lightbulbs and went out and camped. how big was on entourage? >> they might have 8 o or 9 cars in their entourage. you have to remember there's no highways in america. this was a time in american history when you lived in little west virginia hamlet and road might hear the rumble of car engines and you'd run to the

roadside by and by god that's henry ford, that's thomas edison and they are going to your aunt edna's's cafe. ford and edison were the kardashians of their time, maybe we have kim standing right over here just outside the c-span booth and everybody would go, isn't it wonderful we are get to go see someone special. i tend to think ford and edison were more special but it just depends on your outlook. theth vagabonds i loved writing book i've the only ever written that i'm trying to relax actually just go back and look some of it to remember the road trips. >> well, you followed that book up with war on the border about pancho villa, gener jack and the hunt, how much of that hunt for pancho villa is a myth?

>> well, actually the greatest myth that made me drive -- made me write that book is i watched political campaigns, i'm historian but i'm also an american. i want to pick the right one and i heard a specific candidate in the run-up to the 2016 elections saying i'm'm going build a walln the border to keep all the mexicans we don't want from crossing and mexico is going to pay for it and it's going to be wonderful. and i i thought to myself, well, don't you think if the wall would have worked somebody might have thought of it before. maybe i ought to research border history and write a book about it and lo and behold there were plans to build an impenetrable wall across border between the united states and mexico in

1904, 1908, 1912, 1914, 1917. .. .. .. i guess he never studied the history pretty thought it would helpful to have the history. maybe the wall builders might like to see it and save themselves in along the way i got to learn about hisis pursuit, the raid io america by his bandits. i never really heard about any of the stuff. that's why i love researching

history. it will surprise you with the real stories are so much better than the myth. for gods sake up a little border histories understood in 1960 we would not have wasted all this time and money talk about building a wonderful wall. >> rex was poncho via the threat that to the u.s.. army moving down texas to combat? no matter what else may happen around the world our borders are secure. he would be out general by civilian name costanza something you could do is rise up version

could take so much of the territory even at one point for no particular good idea and held it for many months. invite attack and kill some americans the hop to come after me intoll mexico. and here come the yankees again. they're trying to take more of our country. and try to kill a bunch of american engineers in mexico. the northern states was owned by americans appeared intro into america across the border and show americans they can die and their country. theof cost to border into colums a little town.

doctor world war i stopped that mission? stop that mission but because of what happened in mexico america it was prepared into world war i. w persi goes chasi io mexico. whatever you do don't get into an fight with executions. but find themselves trapped by the mexican army in northeast northeastmexico for the thousanf troops with them. as a brilliant soldier, realizes the american army is not prepared to go into battle. not just against the mexicans but if we are ever brought into the wars overseas.

so uses us time to train troops to drill them. they've never had this kind of thing n before. when america enters world war ii purgingmo becomes a commander or there. his troops were on battle ready to we have a code immediately without purging. with a punitive expedition. who knows how history might have changed in. christie was arches air could we continue our conversation author and historian jeff guinn 748-8200 for those in eastern and central time zones. 748-8201 for those in the mountain and pacific. if you cannot get from the phones still want to make a comment you can try social media and you can text a question or comment 202-748-8903. though separate text messages only.

please include your first name and city if you would. let's hear from gary who was in sioux falls south dakota. hi gary. clark's hi. thank you for having historical facts i'm also a history major. i'm also a vietnam era veteran. i am just curious and 68% but the turmoil we know bobby kennedy and martin luther king jr. were all killed and malcolm x. what we doing in that time? i think we were about the same age.e >> yes, i'm about to turn 72. i was in college. 1968 presidential campaign surgeon it lent itself to the paranoia and anguish in america. i was a student in texas. i was following lyndon johnson

around in his library and felt guilty because i developed an admiration for eugene mccarthy. the giver told lbj-not been able to follow along in his library tours oliver wendell holmes said you need to in your time. i think a lot of us did that. i hadn't people who are the people are books were and i thank you very much irving interested. see when terry st. louis good afternoon to you. >> caller: are you there? statement terry we are listening please go ahead. seth abrutyn are you still there? >> tell you what will come back to calls and just a second period as we get them straightened out in d.c. we will come back to those calls in just a second period one of

the things we always do with our authors here a book tv on in-depthn- as we ask them what they are reading here is what jeff guinn told of his currently reading let's rip atkinson world war ii trilogy. an army of dawn, the day of battle the guns that last light. i sat in that sts well to talk in depth about his work. might be picked up that series? >> every time i write a book like a waco, the book that just came out. i s spend maybe three years of feeling scared. there are so many moving parts. there are so many people to include in the story. i'm always afraid restaurant right in the books i'm never going to be able to do it. and then i realize are so many gracious historians who have done them.

i like to look at their work and be comforted by the fact it can be done. atkinson is one of thely amazing historians of our time. i do not flatter myself that my work is equal to his. but when i finish waco i wanted to refresh myself just by seeing how a real pro could do it. who could write about such complex issues, so many moving parts. and not only make it accurate but makeso you want to keep turning the pages. he does that. it's got such a wonderful voice and wonderful rhythm. i read his books to feel good about the possibilities of writing history. >> it is a 30th anniversary of the waco incident in april of 1993 your book just came out. this was about the most contemporary history you have ever written, is that right? work so far. >> host: why did you choose to

write about waco? >> there were some supreme court decisions five doctor for a vote during the pandemic. two maga churches one and los angeles one a new york sued the governments of those states who put out limit of 75 people and gatherings because of the pandemic it would not be safe according to the church this and violated freedom of religious expression but they wanted everyone together in the same room. the supreme courtrt found five - four in their favor for a know some people in the justice department. the reaction was a throw up their hands and say oh no. now, any religious group that wants to say this is what we believe in you have to let us do it because there's no legal precedent. and i thought to myself i would like to know more about this. where in american history have

we had conflict between someone who their religious beliefs superseded the law? waco seemed like a possibility. i read the different books about waco i didn't want to write a book that did what i wanted to do. there were some i thought were quite good but i also felt there were things that were never answered. there is no mention of the atf what would make the atf can involve there. in the branch davidian word they come from? how and why did they get there? i thought this is a story worth learning and worth telling. if you're going to spend two or three years of your life doing nothing about working on this.

24/7 i'm researching and writing a book, that is what i do. so that is what got me curious could the branch davidians today as they are put on trial after all the events at waco say our religious belief was attacked by the babylonian agents and we would have to fight them to the death and a we are sincere in that. could they cite a five -- four supreme court decision in the matter of the church's thing churches thingreligious freedoms public safety? there is a legal precedent now. and you know they could find a lawyer who would argue it. something to think about. one of might next books may take this a little further. >> host: joined to say some more about that next book? >> i want to write books that bring the reader's right up to the president for if after i am gone people to start reading my book the last gunfight the final settling to follow how america

changed all the way to the present day. the legacy of rage in the subtitle examines how waco's events have been used as impetus by militia and violent anti- government protesters. to this day for the actions they took. i am thinking it's time to take a look at some of those and how they have turned out to be what they are, prove themselves to be january 6, 2021. or maybe someone in the immediate let's say alex jones who was made quite the career of encouraging conspiracy theory argument. maybe these folks deserve a look at them and themselves. we will have to see but i was thinking about it for. >> and michael broward county florida please go ahead with your question or comment. >> yes, i wonder if you thought ofts the murder set here in

florida it kind of ties and a lot of that were talking about with religious freedoms and things i want to add with public safety in florida there is no vaccination requirements. if you want to get up any vaccination you sign a form. it really does affect things the msp situation in particular a lot of people are not aware and you like to dig into things but it gets into issues of how guilty is a community at large versus say the person? the community was outraged he was not put to death. because of his childhood you mentioned childhood have you heard of something called adverse childhood experiences? we now know from this larger study that was done with large groups of people our brains are like plastic what happens in her childhood completely changes them. and it's not just experience it

success also an almost identical ways weirdly enough we are all familiar ptsd. >> will tell you what a lot there a lot there will stop you there for her to go to see if jeff guinn to them? >> you think you are right about the florida situation being interesting. my big frustration as i am not going to live long enough to write all the books i want to write. and again would encourage people if you love history, if you are interested in its there is no trick to trying to write books. you just have to tell a story that will interest people and engaging way. maybe i'll get into florida. i don't know that i ever will but if i don't i hope someone else goes in there. >> rita green bay, wisconsin. fun and fascinating discussion, thank you. my question is regarding the manson women.

did either of the two women you spoke with leslie or patricia display any regret or acknowledgment of the horror that they perpetuated? >> i found both of the women to be very interesting. i spent enough time with them that i felt we were getting past sort of the general comments they were making hoping the parole board will see you then. they both say they take personal responsibility for what they did. that they hate that they did it. leslie believes she has seen a mass murderers who did far worse things get paroled and out of prisonar while she stays there d she makes the argument that she never killed anybody like the others she desecrated a corpse.

she feels for this reason the no others she deserves to be pardon the parole board or at least the californian governors have not agreed to this point she said she's sorry and i think she is. she sees herself as a victim. there's injustice placed on her. patricia has told me in tears that she did awful things. her excuse is that she was scared of manson and knew he was capable of doing terrible things to any follower who did it do what she told them to do. she then added i know that is no excuse. i believe she does not see herself as a victim but as somebody who has been punished deservedly for something. i hope that helps answer your question. >> i apologize for the fascination about this. what was the first letter you

wrote to those two women? why did they allow you personally? >> one of the advantages of having written a lot of books is when i am contacting someone thing i want to talk to him interested in facts not mythology. whatever you tell me is what i'm going to write in the book but may not say it's true, they may not agree with it. your perspective is you can see the kind of a writer i am. that can make a difference. certified send a letter particularly with the manson there were people involved were s trying to keep e fact that anything to do with himm secret. and here's a letter from me saying i know who you are you're trying to avoid everything all of these years but now tell me the truth. i explained i would like to send them some books and if after

reading them they are willing to consider talking to me can we please have a conversation? that is what i always do. and usually it does work. i'm pretty good at tracking peoplees down. a couple cases people have not wanted to talk they spent their lives trying not too. and i have to respect that. they have no legal obligation to talk to me. in particular some of the younger manson women now have children and grandchildren who have no idea they are part of the manson family and they are trying to hide it. what am i going to do, ruin that for them? no i can tell the big story anyway and so i did. >> is your book manson allowed in the prison where they are? >> is not even allowed to send each of them a copy of the book so they could read it. i wish they could read i don't think they'd like everything in

itit but i believe they would think a fuller story has finally been told a quick text message hello my name is doctor renita mitchell in new brunswick, new jersey. thank you for your awesome body of work. my question is when and what compelled to to become a historian? to become a historian? a couple of things. i think i really started down the path when i was 13 and read a book called travels with charlie by john steinbeck. i am reading the book and think this guy how i only know because teachers maybe read the parole and the red pony get in the car and drive all over the country. talk to interesting people. write about it and he got paid for it. i want a piece of that when i grow up. and then when i was in college following lyndon johnson on his tours around the library

listening to the way he told the stories i thought it was so much superior to the biographies written about him in the autobiography he had written. they were stiff and formal. but there better ways to tell us that became a journalist i was investigative b journalist. i learned how to dig, how to look for things. and i got very lucky i was one of the very few fortunate enough what i wrote books about history that fascinated me enough copies sold i could give up the day job and just doy it. big shout out to john steinbeck, lyndon johnson and charlie the poodle wherever they may be. you were my inspiration for it we also asked the authors who appear on in depth what their favorite books are. according travels with charlie by giant steinbeck is one of his favorites. along with catherine bowen yankee from olympus and the once

and future king, could you speak to those two books as well? >> certainly. yankee from olympus oliver wendell holmes. i did not interbreed the book when i was in high school because it was boring. for the high school i attended with oliver wendell holmes high school in san antonio we all had to read the book. i was mesmerized and in that book i realize writing history did not have to be boring it was not just facts and names. she created such context started the story with his grandfather a minister and his father. everything he learned fit into his time and place. how the decisions he help her render on the supreme court that

changed america forever were not just based on law but personal experience. if you can write a book like that and not make it dry i thought it must be possible to write history that is factual. that tells important stories people don't't know. but people can enjoy reading it. and that is an inspiration i go back to that book a lot when i'm writing the once and future king i think anyone who's read it knows that's the legend presented by a great historian and storyteller. he could take this tour we all think we know about the sword and the stone and everything else and he could make it seem to apply to modern times. he wrote during the outbreak of world war ii. he was very much a pacifist and wanted to write a book that made people think about certain philosophies. particularly.

i love the book for its storytelling and i love the book for the way he could bring fresh light on something with that we already knew from a to z. those were the people who inspired me and still inspire me i read this books again and again it's always like the first time and i learned something new for.th >> only 15 minutes left with our guest jeff guinn donald is in ohio. please go ahead we are o listening. >> we are in norwalk i am in a nursing home called the toilet gardens i'm about 90 years old. i was still in my beautiful wife in the waco went to spend the entire summer enclosure down there i can't remember who was in charge of it. it was an elderly couple. we were seven adventists and

we'd been to high schools and colleges. we were going around the country with her private ministry setting all we could about offshoots s of the church the seventh avenue in church we went down to waco and spent a summer there and did some reading for a number of things they did including keeping passover and the tabernacle and all of that stuff we didn't believe in observing all of those old testament feast days. the only thing that carried over into the new testament's keeping the seventh day sabbath which we tried to do. anyway we went down there and, spend a summer with these guys and we found out there was corruption. the secondary man down there wasn't married and have an affair with the 16-year-old girl with all kinds of stuff we did not like so we got out of there but we were there for three months we knew it was not the place for us. it was after us david course

came and my daughter had gone to the academy to grade school with david carrasco school and dallas dialysis she knew who he was. we had all of this in background and we had the history started by went into the people we were with. that's after we were there. >> thank you sir thank you for sharing your story. let's hear from jeff gwen. >> i'm curious whether his daughter knew he did not become karesh until after he left school. on the on savory but again i will point out the branch davidians believe they were done with the bible said was allowed they chose secular law in the outsiders my thought is disgusting. >> it sounded like donald was referring to.

[inaudible] tell us little bit about them. >> they were seventh day adventists who left and he believed him and called by god to succeed victor. he said to god's message was they needed to s follow the jewh ceremonies and celebrations rather than the christian ceremonies which were pagan that is why they celebrated passover and other things not christmas or easter. after her husband died gained the ascendancy by saying an angel had come to her and revealed the holy ghost was mail and female. meaning god thanks women are every bit as good as men. for that she was acknowledged as leader. so long before david karesh stole inadvertently or otherwise. had quite the effects of what

happened to waco. >> the branch davidians were somewhat interactive with the town of waco is that a fair statement? >> allowed the branch davidians had day jobs in town. karesh had one legal wife, rachel she was a checkered karesh himself like to take his guitar and go to chelsea street pub at night and sing his songs which for some reason note record producer in l.a. ever wanted to acquire. when the media came in and immediately fell in the events of february 28 the atf operation, they wanted stories every t day the more lurid the better they would fan out until waco to try to find people do you know any of the branch davidians? have you seen them do disgusting things? all they were ever told us they are kind of strange but they keep to themselves, they are okay for they could not find people to complain about the branch davidians for these many

yearss. later there quite a few people who say i was so the whole time i always suspected they were terrible. butt nobody was saying that at the time. >> chuck lake arrowhead, california go ahead with your question or comment for author jeff. >> thek, writing you do have you ever thought about the christian scientists and what they have done to americans? >> i have to say that's not a subject i've ever thought about getting into. maybe another writer. see what led to from john and billings, montana. john please go ahead we are listening. >> hello. have you ever thought about writing anything about the zodiac killer? they have been saying for years and years they wanted to find him when he's actually doing a

life sentence in montana. >> and others a lot of unanswered questions about that. i do not feel the zodiac killer has historic impact across her culture. i don't think i'm going to be doing that one. we went to two hours and only a few minutes left one of these subtitles of the last gunfight book is how it changed the american west, the okay corral what exactly do you mean when you say that? >> the event itself is not really a gunfight it was a police stop to take a couple weapons up following town long gone wrong it never happened in thekay corral. messed up arrest was not as catchy a title. it a in of itself the event is negligible. it's a built up in mythology.

but in real history this was i think the time laws were very elastic in the frontier. you got in a shootout and killed them but you canon usually get f by saying i thought he was going to shoot me so i shot him first. when doc holliday were brought to h trial for the killings that took place in tombstone that day, that was the signal that in the west court room law was going to be the operating and decisive factor. it was not going to be law of the streets anymore. that is why we really need to look at it and understand it because it is a turning point in american history. the other stuff is entertaining but it is also mythology. peter:f guinn consider him a myth buster? does he seek myths developing

today that will be busted 50 years from now? jeff: an awful lot of belief in history is based more on convenience than actual fact. i do not want to call myself a myth buster. so many people take comfort from myths. but i think of myself as a factfinder. i do not believe in alternative facts. if i write a book, i will let you know in in chapter knows where i got every information. i am not going because of thatto information. i just want you to know it and then you can make your own decision. >> steve in topeka kansas, go ahead. we are listening. >> i'm fascinated by your talk.

a question and then matter-of-fact they made a movie on tombstone i would be interested in your comments [inaudible] some of the characters look at the names, there we go. >> my grandfather quit school graduated and i think he was about 16-years-old when he headed westut from ohio and then he went through kansas and

in the fall went to work on the railroad. they just turned 18 and then he ends up going to france -- >> we are going to drop it there. we started in tombstone and ended on france. >> like a lot of americans, his family has been part of history for so long. it's wonderful that he knows about that and it makes it more

fun to learn about how these different things evolved from point a and point b, c and d that has had a share of adventures. >> what he reminded me of were two things, the texas cattle drives and the term texas rangers which didn't have the same connotation along with cowboys that it does today. >> in the history of different organizations, the fact that they may sometimes enter horrific periods when they do things that are unconscionable doesn't mean they don't have others where they are everything they believe they are. those that i've written about so far are worse than the desperados.

i have to tell the truth and sometimes that is uncomfortable and bothers people. as far as cowboys are concerned, a great dallas cowboys fan but the original term was meant to bem an insult. if you called somebody a cowboy in the early frontier, you're sayingou he is so disgusting outside of normal society. it was only after they built up history. one minute left, please go ahead. that's it. we are going to end it did there. we couldn't hear from doug. you and i were talking about book festivals at the beginning and you were mentioning tucson

where we are now added the mississippi book festival that is held every august. >> when you do a lot of different festivals, it's inevitable that you will develop some favorites. i can't think of an offer who love being invited to the festival. it's wonderful the crowds are so friendly it isth the best organized i could be here all week and still look forward to it every day. the mississippi book festival is in a band coming festival that shows every sign of becoming one of the great ones. it's well organized and takes place in the state capital on thes grounds of the state capital, it's a beautiful settingl and i hope everybody that loves to read gets a chance tove go there. >> for the past two hours we've been talking with author, investigative reporter jeff graham. here is his most recent book called "waco the branch

davidians and a legacy of rage." we appreciate your time over the past two hours. >> thank you for the great questions. >> host: and thank you, audience, as well.

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cable. welcome, everyone. nice to see some friendly faces, somee new faces. i'm the chairwoman of th