of congress carla hayden pulitzer prize-winning goodwin and more. the library of congress national book festival live a saturday beginning at 9:00 a.m. eastern on c-span2. ♪ if you are enjoying book tv senate for a newsletter is the qr code on the screen to receive a schedule of upcoming programs, author discussions, book festivals and more. book tv every sunday on c-span2 or anytime online apple tv.org. television for serious readers. if you've ever witnessed any of c-span's coverage you can find it anytime online@c-span.org. videos of key hearings, debates and other events which are markers that guide you to interesting and newsworthy highlights.

these points of interest markers appear on the right-hand side of your screen when you play on select videos. timeline tool makes it easy get and it was debated and decided in washington for its growth through spend a few minutes on c-span's points of interest. >> a look at ways to improve retirement for americans during a hearing on senate house, education, labor and pension committee according to committee chair bernie sanders almost 45% of americans between the ages of 55 and 64 have no retirement savings. [background noises]

[background noises] >> on the committee on health education labor and pension will come to order. and the purpose of this hearing is the issue being discussed is of enormous consequence. but unfortunately i don't think it is getting the attention that it deserves. i want to thank all of the witnesses for being here and i look forward to a good and serious discussion. what me start off by saying as a nation we have more income, wealth inequality today than we have had in the history of america. while the billionaire class becomesur a wealthier, our socil safety net for the most vulnerable and our country remains far behind the wellfleet

nations, it is a disaster and if we do not get our act together it is only going to get worse. we had the highest rate of childhood poverty of almost any major nation. our child care system is now dysfunctional. more than 600,000 fellow americans are homeless. over 85 million are uninsured or underinsured. but let's be clear. it is not to see children and poor who are in the richest country on earth are hurting. our nation senior citizens are struggling asio well. the truth is we now have a retirement crisis in america that demands our immediate attention. which brings us to the subject of today's hearing. in the united states today almost 45% of older americans between the ages of 55 and 64 have no savings at all.

and no idea how they will retire with any shred of dignity or respect. 45% of workers between 55 and 64, zero retirement savings. and as frightening as the crisis is it's even a bigger concern of senior citizens were no longer able to work but exhausted all of their savings and will have no pensions at all. incredibly and this is quite incredible, one out of every four senior citizens in america are trying to live on an income of less than $15000 a year. think about that. over half the nation senior's are trying to survive on income of less than 30,000 dollars a year. but your self in the place ofso that person. how do you pay the rent? how do you pay for healthcare and prescription drugs?

how do you put food on the table on just 15000 or even 30,000 dollars a year? the truth of the matter is, that many cannot. that should not be happening in our country. the organization for economic development we have a dubious distinction of not only having the highest rates of trout the dust reward for our children we have the highest rate of senior poverty compared to other wealthy nations as well. and in denmark only 3% of seniors live in poverty in france 4.4 the united kingdom 15.5. over in america over 23% of seniors are living in poverty. i would hope we would agree that simply unacceptable and it's got is gottachange. fifty years ago for corporations of red workers with defined-benefit pension plan that guaranteed monthly income

and retirement. back then many corporations made a promise to their workers they work at the same company for a reasonable time they would be rewarded with a monthly check that would t enable for them to live comfortably not a radical idea that's what it was then. the longer you work at the same company thehe bigger your retirement check would be. the employer would bear in those days all of the responsibility of the pensions of their workforce. tragically those days are mostly behind us as a result of a relentless 40 year war on the working class waged by corporate america traditional pension plans have become an endangered specie on the way to extinction. the result for workers has been tragic. in 1980 3:30 1% of american workers are at risk of not being able to maintain their candidate of living in old age.

in 2020 that number rose to 51%. in other words we aren't moving we are moving inexactly the wro. all right that is the problem. what do we do to address that crisis? first, at a time in far too many seniors are living in poverty in many of nothing on the bank for retirement,e we must expand to social s security. not cut social security as many of my colleagues in congress would have us do. we must make social security solvent for the next 75 years so that it will be there for our kids and our grandchildren. legislation i've introduced along with nine cosponsors accomplishes those goals. according to social security administration legislation i've introduced would make social security solvent for 75 years and increasedec benefits by $240

a year for seniors who need them. how do you do that? my goodness. how do you do that? at a time of massive income wealth inequality with a radical ideaad that maybe the people on top should start paying their fair share of taxes. today a billionaire paid the same amount of money into social security somebody makes one or $68000 a year as a result of the cap on social security parol tax got that? make a billion dollars a year you pay the same amount for anybody in americayo think that makes sense? i don't. legislation we have proposed would lift the cap on social security starting at $200,000. who do that, taxable income social security is solvent for the next 75omy years increased benefits by $2400 per person. but that is not all that we have

to do. in my view every corporation in america should be required to provide american plan for theirr workers corporations choose to not offer retirement plan to a federal pension plan similar to members of congress, good for congress, good for the american people. federal employees and members of congress have a certain percentage of their salaries from their paychecks and put into the program that provides pension based on salary in years of service. and bottom line if it is good for members of congress our staff is good for the american people. so that is where we are. we have a crisis we have common sense solutions look forward to work with members of this committee asked thank you little odd the folks today prescribing

anan agenda frankly that is outdated and a little bit connectors. connected. 1974 congressnn passed the employment retirement income security act in response to tens of thousands of americans losing their retirement security because employers defined-benefit systems failed. exemplified by the collapse of studebaker automobile company and by 1800 pension plans terminating over a four-year period, imagine impact upon those hundreds of thousands of workers who are employed by them. the defined system has been largely replaced which has flourished. as of 2021 collectively own nine $.4 trillion is workers own their own retirement system. no matter what happens to the

workers current or previous employer their retirement funds are secure. very few people retire after 50 years at a company and get a golden watch. most were moved between employers this allows them to do so while maintaining the retirement that are important congress passed secure act 2.0 on a bipartisan basis making improvements to our nation's retirement system. we have the option to take a one such as a chairs advocating for them on a bipartisan basis chose not too. instead they say solution base n primarily on the success of the defined contribution system secure 2.0 was so popular it passed out of all four committees of jurisdiction with unanimous f votes and on the hoe floorgi by a vote of 414 -- fiv. the chairs speaks of needing to find af solution to a crisis but we have that solution. by the way this provisions of secure act 2.0 are yet to be implemented including those helping low income individuals. for example the enhanced match

taxx credit going right into low income americans retirement accounts which goes into effect in 2027. the chair reference to just explain to retirementce crisis manynt of these are from 2021 which predate the passing of secure 2.0 for the improvement that is made on the improvements that will make. especially those of targeting lower income americans. now, by the way there's a place for defined-benefit systems. with the forms that can be successful 2006 we pass these reforms which resulted in some funds being overfunded. even weather and 2009 financial crisis. however these reforms have not beenen implemented in the largey unionized utilized union utilize multiemployer defined-benefitut space. many of the multiemployer defined-benefit plans have for years one and 2021

i told congress they needed to bail out. many plants were badly mismanaged. democratss passed 90 billion-dollar bailout of multiemployer defined-benefit system on a party line vote without strings on the tax dollars to prevent strings that would say you have to make these reforms to prevent future failures. as a lack of reform system. large labor unions lobby to make sure without meaningful reforms protecting workers and preventing future failure. simple reforms requiring certain funding levels, disclosures for defined-benefit plans. requiring unions beneficiaries with a clear report of defined benefit program financial state. no wishing the results of the failure to enact these provisions. hundred $27 million overpayment

in their bailout to include thousands of deceased participants of their bailout application. let's give credit where credit is due. central state pension fund tells thee committee will be impossibe to repay theos money they were improperly paid. should be alarmed by the financial state of the retirement plan infuriating only a few years after tens of billions of dollars to r bail im so happy very successful individual employers space

staunch union opposition to reform the defined benefit or divide contribution. wish to continue to offer and expand their programs. if it is working don't fix it. into the defined contribution including many innovative lifetime income products. lifetime income is desired by many americans and makes it easier for defined contributions to include them. things we can do in a bipartisan basis which is why it was disappointing brother working together told a bipartisan hearing on bipartisan basin on scope or legislative focus. somethingom bipartisan to pass with 60 votes we can do it to

bipartisan bills helping young american save retirement act makes it easier for younger workers between the ages of 18 and 22 save for retirement by removing barriers currently make it harder to join employer's retirement plan. auto enroll act of 2023 assist workers w previously declined to participate or contributed little to the pension plan many make less money and of the money in their paycheck to pay for bills as opposed to contributing to retirement wagers grow oft back into start contributing to their retirement. this legislation allowsll a business the periodically auto enroll employees back into their plans with the option to opt out. that way they do not accidentally miss on crucial years preparing for retirement. hope the chair will indulge us with the markup of these bipartisan pieces of legislation. in closing, on the effectiveness

of these provisions and discover any other creative ideas. the system we have. thank you in a yield. let's think it senator cassidy. five excellent knowledgeable witnesses we will begin with sarah is a fourth generation ford autoworker prone as many uaw members for 17 years. she spent her first six years as a full-time temporary employee id ford subsidiary in plymouth, michigan print 2012 to permit status and support her family she was forced to move from michigan to louisville assembly plant in kentucky. she networks it affords transmission plant and michigan as a member of that uaw local 182. thank you for being with us.

>> thank you and good morning. i senator sanders said my name is sara schambers. i found my great-grandfathers in my grandfathers and my parents footsteps but to build cards for living i'm proud of what i've done for the difference in my generation of past generations is they had a pension. i do not. i do not have healthcare when i retire i do not have retirement security. i've been out of work over 17 years, six of those years i worked at ford as a full-time temporary employee until 2012. that was a big moment for me because for generations getting a job at board met stability and security. being able to plan for yourself and your children. that being able to buy a house and see a future for yourself. but for those of us are hired and after the financial crisis but is not been our truth. instead been fighting to get back the american dream andac ty

to turn these jobs back into careers.rs an american auto industry. two of my grandparents who retired from the big three had very different paths. my grandfather three decades of ford motor company and in return cutters are at age 55 with the pension and healthcare. he was afforded the dignity to have a life after ford motor company. they will have life at this kids, grandchildren and great-grandchildren.t to be part of the community and not just work until he died. my grandmother had a different path she was hit with lou gehrig's disease she had to retire early for her own illness. she did not have to choose between doctors, rent, or food. she knew she had healthcare and have pension to relent and she retired and struggled to her health. for me, in sickness or and help i do not know what our family

holds. zaidi and are working people thatkn do not know how long they're going to feel to last at a job. it makes people to save maybe i won't buy that house but maybe they won't put down roots in the community or maybe it won't fit this company. i did not become a fourth generation autoworker-g becausei love building cars. i did not become a fourth-generation autoworker because i love the low starting paybe or the lack of a retiremet security that we nowem know. i come from a family of autoworkers because for years it was a career. one you c would put work in and get something out of it. in a lot of ways for generation ford was the american dream. it meant if i pitched income if i worked hard i would be able to have a life after ford motor company. but p without a pension, without healthcare, the people leaving the company's after 30 years with nothing more than have a nice day and i hope the stock

market does not crash. that is unacceptable for america. as you note uaw went major victories in a six-week strike. i am proud of the accomplishments that we have made after 15 years of falling behind after the financial crisis. but, it was still fell short of what generations of autoworkers had pretty simple short what the american dream should be. the companies are adamant they could not afford to add to our pension liability. they said that wall street would look down on them. and giving back ourur pensions could c affect their stock prics and possibly lead to lower credit ratings. nowadays the stock price is more important than what her 50000 autoworkers. that is a shame. our next big three contracts expire in 2028. we are ready to fight for retirement security, for pensions and healthcare when i

retire. there is an old saying, we will strike if provoked. while i think wall street calling the shots and sowing the big three the autoworkers cannot have retirement security is what i call being provoked. there is another old saying, which side are you on? so i want to close by asking you, u.s. senators who represent us, which side are you on? the american workers? who elect to put or corporate greed and wall street is say a dignified retirement is too much for the american people to ask for. thank you for your time. >> thank you very much. our next witness will be teresa ghilarducci professorof of economics at the new school in new york city. she is frequently published academic journals and has worked at several books on how we can ensure retirement security for

all american workers. thank you very much for being with us. [inaudible] [inaudible] sorry. because of inadequate pension system the united states are elder poverty rate e exceeds all of our peers. where the highest at 22% in contrast to poverty risk for dutch elders is a very low 3%. u.s. retirement system gets c's and bees on international benchmarks the dutch system gets an a. you might hear about the average retirement wealth being quite high and actually growing. but for the typical american that median retirement wealth has gone down for the bottom 90%. a because averages do not tell the story if elon musk walked on the

witness stand today we would be the richest on average witnesses of all time in the health committee. but the typical retirement wealth for us would not go up. for the typical american approaching retirement the older households and their typical retirement wealth social security wealth is the most important. the stream of social security benefits the defined-benefit system for those in the bottom half of the wealth distribution is worth about one and $88000. they have zero retirement wealth and zero home equity. for the typical household the next 40% the middle class there retirement wealth is only about $20000. they have, we have about one or $20000 in home equity. it is only the top 10% who, over

the past 30 years have had a rapid increase in the retirement health, their health as well in their home equity exceeds four times that of the middle class. this all adds up into a lack of retirement regiment. the lack of retirement readiness has materialized even though congress has given lots of tax breaks of retirement savings are prone there's lot of the pros saving policies like home owning incentives. they meant selling tax breaks for savings loss of substantial investments into financial advice and all sorts of retirement products. the u.s. retirement system has not flourished. it lacks three fundamental elements of a well designed a system. a well-designed pension system

only needs three things. and he's help all americans acutely enough money into the retirement account. please help all americans investa well into their retiremt account. i need to have a good way for americans to accumulate the retirement account and lifetime benefit. so what is to be done? senators here have tried to protect the defined benefit system but senators cassidy and kain would mandate let people into these plans earlier. at 18 out of 21-point the auto reenrollment act would help reinvigorate auto enrollment provisions to help more participation. you may hear about auto iras. these are automatic individual retirement accounts they are at the state level and atre the federal level. they are good baby steps for more access. but iras permit leakages and do not pull investments.

because people access their individual retirement accounts for emergency savings home ownership and other life events this difficult individual emergency savings accounts they are not retirement accounts of. we can extend wealth building opportunities to all americans. one bipartisan powerful proposal already exists sitter hickenlooper along with senator tillis republican, democrat ever democrat in that house in the he representative swayed in lloyd schmucker would expand retirement accounts all public who don't have one. they do not crowd out existing accounts. that follows the successful savings plan again the savings plan for the staff members of congress and for members of congress. itea would feature automatic enrollment features have good investment options and sensible the accumulation it meets the three prong test.

also a 5% match which help to mitigate the top heaviness of our current match. it's endorsed by experts all across the politicalp, spectrum. the aarp and the charles schwab. last week i was on a radio talk show in the 25-year-old npr host asked me why, professor, his isretirement in america becomina luxury? my students ask me every semester, why do so many people in america who are old marley for a widely have to work? i can graduate committee members from both parties for recognizing the urgency, the disaster in the crisis. and for your caring and your wisdom to solve it i heard you all say you need a bold bipartisan reform thank you. >> thank you very much. our next witness will beat

gentoo. with more than 20 years of experience working on retirement issues.. thank you for being with us. >> thank you. chairman sanders, ranking member cassidy at members of the senate health committee. i appreciate the opportunity to testify in the state of retirement in the united states. federall to retirement security. i'm the executive director and we are a nonpartisan, nonprofit think tank in washington d.c. we have a broad membership base, financial service companies, plan sponsors, labor unions and nonprofits including aarp. congress had made progress to address america's retirement crisis for the secure act secure act 2.0 are steps in the right direction but much work remains to ensure americans can be self sufficient in retirement for the key point that like to make

today americans to face it hurt an alarming shortfall. second the move away from pension is a major culprit on the nation's retirement crisis. a401k plan are important part of the retirement equation. they were just not designed to raise pensions. and third, today's pensions designs and management can be beneficial for employers, workers and the economy more broadly. pensionsoa are the most economically efficient way to deliver retirement income. an offer workforce advantages to employers pensions paid out more than $600 billion in 2020 support at $1.3 trillion in economic activity. pensions of course are user-friendly for workers and faced little leakage in the past the biggest challenge has been for employers the cost of been unstable. today there are more sophisticated tools and benefit designs that have addressed this

challenge for i believe companies give pensions ape freh look they will discover the win/win solutions are possible. diving little deeper into the gravity of the u.s. retirement problem the data clearly shows most americans will not have enough money for financially secure retirement and they're worried about it. our generation x research from the bottom half of gen x earners only had a few thousand dollars saved for retirement. the median household not individual but household has only 40000 retirement savings. also retirement savings for gen x are highly concentrated amongst the highest earners. more broadly national retirement riskre index half of u.s. households will not be able to maintain their standard of living when they retire. americans understand the scope of this crisis. 79% of americans agree there is a retirement crisis with 55% concern they cannot achieve

financial security in retirement. looking ahead and preparing for retirement increases as we live longer, face large risks without risk pooling and deal with rising costs but research shows the nation's individual savings base system is not well-suited for workers it is important 401(k) were never meant to replace a pensions they were meant to be a supplemental vehicle. conventional wisdom suggests that costt less. but what i hear when that is said that means we are putting less money into a less efficient system. and as costs rise hoping for the best. post retirement brings the biggest challenges and inefficiencies for the news research ask how much retirement income to $100,000 nestor germinate annually for some at age 65? the response were jarring only

8% of workers provided an accurate response most wildly over estimateed the level of income they could count on it. third, many pensions have similar benefit designs and nothing could be further from the truth. few public pens write example are very transparent in their operations. wisconsin retirement system in south dakota retirement system written comments show remarkable cost stability of the systems throughout hard times the ground is shifting with respect to employers offering pensions we have heard about the interest uaw to return the pensions and we have all read the news about ibm moving back pensions. which produces substantial cash savings for ibm as well. finally my written testimony details policy issues that could help facilitate a pension renaissance key issues are enabling companies to fiscally

cautious funding strategies that reduce cost volatility over time without a major disincentive to error. in conclusion thank you for holding this important hearing on the opportunity to testify. i'll be happy to respond to questions or. >> thank you very much mr. dan doonan. >> mr. cassidy would like to address your witness? >> i like to introduce rachel greszler hose work to focus on retirement labor policies to rebut economic growth, individual freedom and well-being before joining heritage she was a senior economist. his congressional joint economic committee. show the bh economicsc universiy of mary washington as well as master's degree in public degree in georgetown. welcome rachel greszler we appreciate you being here and look for it your testimony. >> thank you for the opportunity to be here this morning. in my testimony i like to look at the current state of americans retirement security

and also discuss the failure of certain defined benefit pensions. older americans financial well-being is strong by historic standards. s shareholder americans with no retirement savings filter 12% in 2022. even after excessive inflation is eaten away the value of american savings retirees real income arere up over 30% over te past 35 years. importantly the lowest earners have the highest replacement rates in retirement. households in the bottom 20% average 123% of pre-retirement income whereas households at the top average 75%. older americans report greater financial well-being than any other age group. over the past 10 years the percentage of people over 65 who say they are just getting by our having a hard time getting by fell by half. retirement savings have shifted

from defying benefits to contribution plans assets have surged at 41.5 trillion americans inflation-adjusted retirement assets have increased 330% over the past 35 years. defined benefit and defined contribution plans can provide secure retirement. but when not managed properly defined benefit plans can end up like ponzi schemes. that is what has happened with social security multi employer or union pensions. past and future have failed to properly manage social security and failed to require sound rules for pet pensions. now, neither can come close to providing retirees but they are promised. social security will be insolvent in nine years. i will implement 23% across the board and benefit cuts. that's a 5300 per year cut for the average retiree. now, program is supposed to

prevent younger generations from having to bear the burden of older generations has instead amassed a $22.4 trillion unfunded obligation for that amounts to $172,000 for every household in america. simply maintaining current benefits would require the average household to pay at least $3000 more per year in taxes. that money would be far better off in a personal account. my analysis shows of the younger worker today wereer allowed to t the social security taxes into a personal account they would have three times as much in retirement after purchasing an annuity. policymakers must reform social security before it becomes an even worse a deal for younger workers. by shifting towards a universal benefit in making other commonsense changes policymakers can improve the program, increase economic growth and enable greater personal savingse private union pension plans are even worse than social security.

multiemployer pensionye funding hass $823 billion in unfunded obligations as of 2021 and 41 cents on the dollar and promiseh benefits. this underfunding is systemic. 96% of participants are in a plan that's less than 60%es funded. this happens because unions took advantage of preferential rules at 11 to increase benefits without requiring higher contributions to fund those benefits.it yet instead of fixing the system congress and passed the worst possible type of a bailout one that picks winners and looters, doesso aptly nothing to fix the root problems and encourages more recklessness. while at roughly 15% of union plans are now privy to taxpayer bailouts about 10 million workers arm plans that will not receive bailouts and will still becomeec insolvent.

to prevent union workers and retirees from receiving less than half of the promised benefits and to prevent taxpayers from having to pay another 70 or billion dollars in bailouts congressmen to shore up and apply the same funding rules to union pensions as it does to nonunion pensions. social security and union pensions are anything but secure the last thing america needs is for lawmakers to try to put more of their retirement savings into accountss they neither own nor control and which are managed by groups of people who repeatedly put their own personal incentives about workers and retirees well-being. to help improve the financial security of all americans including younger workers to face the greatest financial struggles today, policymakers should enact universal savings accounts so it is simpler and easier for americans to say for all types of expected and unexpected life events. you. >> thank you very much.

first rachel greszler you almosd elder five minutes, let me complement you. [laughter] cap a pleasure to introduce you to mr. eric stevenson. bring it more than 17 years of experience having joy nationwide in 2006 heels of bets or business administration financial university of oklahoma masters of business administration from northwestern university is responsible for overseeing nationwide's retirement plan operation and delivering workplace solutions for s plants parts looters and d participants. welcome back the u.s. senate and thank you for being here. >> good morning chairman sanders, ranking member cassidy members of the committee thank you for convening today's hearing to discuss the nation's retirement system how we can better meet the needs of america's workers and retirees. as mentioned my name is eric stevenson impreza nationwide i'e retirement solutions and nationwide insurance company for 200 company based in columbus, ohio.

we provide a full range of insurance and financial services in our products. nationwide administers 26000 retirement plans protecting nearly $200 billion in participant assets, helping to secure financial futures for over two and half million participants. top provider of government plan 7600 plans serving 1.84 million workers. we also focus on helping small business employers, employees the average plant size is 40 employees or less. for nearly 25401k plans in that space. nationwide begin retirement solution business back in 1973 is a very different landscape than we see today. employers offering pensions took on the risk and burden off managing that asset on behalf of their employees. most of them would work for that employer for their entire career before retiring with her benefits. by 1975 there were to define contributions everyone defined benefit plan of the market. the burden of managing

retirement assets began to shift onto the shoulders of the retirement saver and away from the employer of the plan sponsor. while neither these solutions own their own wordperfect traditional cap employees tied at their employer through vesting requirements and service -based benefit calculation for d.c. plans expect average employees to the knowledge and confidence to manage their own investment choices but little support. both systems had significant upside traditionalists offer the security of a predictable reliable income stream throughoutbs retirement. often including some survivor benefits. these plans were portable could be moved with the worker from job to jobm as they search for higher pay and new opportunities. now,. in 2024 we have the abiliy to take the best of both systems i move past a less desirable future. the successful passage of secure act o of 20192022 create

opportunities to innovateti and improve the plans and offerings that did not previously exist. today plans come with a host of education support and financial planning tools. their tax incentives to encourage smallre businesses to offer plans toe employees and make employer contributions to their savings. student loan helps young saver start early auto enroll features get more and more workers saving for retirement. most importantly plans can easily integrate protected retirement income into employer-sponsored plans. workers with access to these products can select and knowing what they are guaranteed income would be upon retirement. nationwide is dedicated significant resources to build out a conference a suite of products are platform to specifically meet these needs. encouraging s plan sponsors to offer at least one income solution in their plans will go a long way in making sure people haveve guaranteed income when ty retire.

with 2024 represents a 4.4 million americans are going to turn 65 the largest number in our history that's 12000 people turning 60 5a day. but that kind of trend i am especially energized to be here today with all of you seeking the same goal of a s secure retirement for america's workers i look forward to your questions as we look for ways to solve this crisis. >> thank you very much. we'll begin with the questioning. hearings like this, experts throw out a lot of numbers. and theyy look at the world a little bit differently than some of our economists in terms of what's happening to working families. but, at the end of the dave got millions and millions of people who have worked their whole are entering retirement and they are scared to death. but i think sara schambers you are testament is extremely moving you're not just speaking

by your own life not even about that uaw you're talking millions and millions of people. talk a little bit not only for your own experience from your friends, your family, what it is like to have worked in your case 17 years one of the major corporations in america. as i understand it right now you have no retirement program. note pension program. on an emotional basis on ais personal basis what is that like? yes we have a 401(k) we got a raise in the 401(k). that's great it's a good steppingstone it's a good fit for it. but when i retire my 401(k) is based off in the rest of america now that is in my generation based off of what the stock market o is doing. i have seen several times in my lifetime where the stock market went down and we have lost a lot of money in her 401(k). i am not at retirement age. when i look at my 401(k) and the

amount of money it was bleeding out of it with covid it makes me very uneasy. especially working at ford and had it goalpost when i hired in and it was your temporary employee full-time until further notice. so now. >> explained to members being a quote unquote temporary you are temperate temporary employee for six years that's a long temp what is that mean? >> i was considered full-time so i worked 40, 50, 60 hours a week. i was locked in at $14 an hour until 2013. i was expected to do everything a full-time employee did. but i did not get any of the benefits it. .when i hired in i question what part of the contract i fell under they said it depends on what we are talking about. so there is never any full

here's the book your rules and regulations is like no were not going to cover you under that. >> okay, thank you. thank you very much. miss ghilarducci we are one since the wealthiest country in the world right? a lot of billion hours south of denver very well. how does in your judgment the american retirement plan the status of older americans compared to people around other wealthy nations? the microphone. >> my data really looks at that question. so i compare what people were like when they are approaching retirement 30 years ago. and take the same snapshot of the generation that looks like them right now. and as i said it might written testimony today, 50% will not be able to read the retirement

standards and most of them will not be able to leave poverty standards. compare that to other countries with all different kinds of systems with scandinavia, the germans, the french, the italians. just look at our peers and weep wefall way behind. i was looking at the elderly poverty rate because astound us better thann us. >> i heard from some of the economist today for doing just great things are getting better. >> that was my little lesson on averages versus medians. because the rich have done so well they brought up the averages people who talk about average retirement wealth can point, too. it is gone. that's because the top 10% got the benefit of retirement tax cuts they got the benefit of the run up in the market. they did not take money out to buy their houses. >> last question, thank you very

much. dan doonan right now billionaire paid taxes on $160,000 but that's about it. massive amounts of un- taxed money there despite massive income, wealth, and inequality. does that make sense too you? microphone. >> thank you for the question. i would note one of the reason social security financing fell off track lisa captured 90% of total income. those expected to continue pro with rising inequality i think were down to 82 or 81. so when these projections were done in the early 80s, i feel like they did a pretty nice job we had 40 years of level costs. but there were areas where the projections had not come true. >> senator cassidy? >> i willl defer to senator

tuberville it. >> thank you, mr. chairman for thank you for having us. this is interesting. and we all know as mr. stevenson said a lot of us are retiring. i retired a few years ago and that my wife told me too get a job. soso here i am today. iver 40 years paid max into social security. the max. i'mai probably food close to a million dollars in social security. i think i get about 3000 a month, maybe. and it's also scary for those of you who don't know, this group appear 1983 voted to tax social security. in a few years later, tax it again. it is always scampered this is all a scam. we've got people getting ready to retire that are going to try to live up to her $3000 it is impossible. because what happens as it comes up your we spend it we have 35 trillion in debt we aren't

dead broke taxpayers of $2 trillion in credit card debt. we are in huge trouble. in this body we better start figuring that out because we are going have a run on the city here soon and there's going to about 150 million people coming up and saying where's our money? thene money that we paid in. i could've put my social security money for years in the market and become be worth eigh. the federal government wasted it.o i'll get off my horse but it's this.hat we have i get a little pension check from education. as part of a union. it is not going to help people people are going to have to continue to work longer and longer, in my righton can you sy something about social security and it being taxed for some reason we are taxing people for the second time in social security they put into an account? >> yes it is like to point out social security was first

founded those who established it started out as a 2% tax base of this will never take more than 6% of your income. today 612.4% depending if you go it needs to take between 15.8 and 17.5%. we are talking thousands of dollars more per year. i was actually only originally recommended that tax be up to $66000 equivalent in today's dollars of earnings. but over time and has expanded massively in the money has been spent every year so everyone thanks the money's been set aside know for the past 13 years every dollar that is gone out of workers a paycheck is gone immediate to pay promised benefits that is what happens when you have a system that enables those in charge of it to spend the money in the immediate term on the at the book to the next generation coming along. because social security is grown so much as to the detriment of lower income workers in particular who have to pay such a large share of their paycheck

to social security for them littlele left to save for retirement. and then lower income and african-american workers have the lowest life expectancies. they are the most likely to get nothing back in return for it one out of four african men will die between the age of theil 45 and 64 after having paid into the system for decades. tensns if not hundreds of thousands of dollars and they might get nothing back. >> what is the solution? quick tip to shift back to the uniform system. it does notia make sense or paying the biggest benefits of the highest income earners in. that middle and upper income earners actually increase them with a lower income earners but look at things like indexing, a life expectancy more accurate inflation and i think workers need an option to have their money and something earns a positive ratear of return and cannot immediately be spent by congress. >> 20 and 29-year-old two boys have got jobs working hard,

paying social security for that smell the a time we'll ever see any of that money? will i see it? >> i think they'll see some of itss exact same thing i hear whn i ask a group of younger workers. and none of them raise their hand. i think there will be something there. it is not going to be what has been promised. >> is receiving everything to add tong that? >> thank you, senator pay what i at addison talk about social security and t pensions, but two things we both have in common is guaranteed income you know you're going to get generally speaking. what a reference in terms of protective retirement we have developed solutions to get at both of those in a very efficient way. they also address the issue of market volatility live step ups and lock ins. it's a very efficient way to deliver that to millions of americans we have been talking it's all because of what you did they put us in a position to do that. that's why i am really encouraging us out it was one of

those solutions of the american workers can choose if they want to know if they're going to get a retirement, we can deliver that for them too. >> young people of all ages ask me why can't we put our money and her own 401(k) instead of putting in social security? is theren an answer to that? >> what i love is there asking the right question. savings in any way is a good thing. i think there's a place for social security there's a place for pension there's certainly a place for were doing in 401(k) plans. >> senator? >> thank you very much mr. chair and thanks you in the ranking member for having this hearing pray thank you 12 are witnesses for being here today. mr. stevens that i'm going to talk with a question for you. we can increase americans retirement savings by supporting small businesses that offer retirement plans to their employees. that is why my colic on this committee senator bud and i are working to develop a bipartisan bill to improve the existing retirement plans startup tax credit. thisns bill would ensure the smallest businesses received tax

cuts that fully cover the cost of starting a retirement plan. mr. stevenson how can expanding retirement related tax incentives for small businesses help increase access to retirement security for their workers? how can congress continue to support small businesses in their efforts to provide retirement plans? >> the credits for small businesses are really important for everything we can do to encourage a small business is a hugely successful. what i would add is as a former small business owner myself one thing when w you start a small business you're struggling with their so mayay things are wrestling with her and sometimes getting to that making it easy, making it really automatic for people set up a 401(k) is super important as well. >> thank you another question for you mr. stevenson. since 2019 congress has twice passed into law bipartisan legislation to increase access to retirement savings options.

critically for military options part-time workers and student loan borrowers. however 57 million americans do not have access to a workplace retirement plan. how can congress continue to build on the bipartisan momentum to increase access retirement options? >> again secure act 1.0 and 2.0 are huge in terms of momentum to createmo more access. i think we're on the right track but what we need to do and hold us accountable as we have got to make sure people take advantage of those. they are utilizing those. there is a lot out there. two.zero just past. you are on the right track. we got to keep pushing down that path. >> will be helpful for us to understand 2.0 is getting implemented what challenges we are seeing and what other challenges to make j it easier d easier for americans to save

earlier and earlier in their careers.u i want to thank you for your testimonyur is very meaningful it's very important. i also wanted to talk specifically about the impact that motherhood has on working women and on their capacity to save for retirement. according to a recent department of labor report mothers lose an average of nearly $240,000 in income over their lifetime. this lost income reduces mothers retirement saving by nearly $60000. we all would step to do more to help moms and caregivers so that they can retire with dignity. as i understand it ms. schambers you have two children how is your experience to both care for your kids and save for retirement? >> thank you for the question.

it's really important with having children to be able to say i know what i can leave my career and i know i can still provide. when the cost of living goes up, so it is a babysitting, so does daycare, so does everything else in this world. and until this recent strike our wages were way behind. and on top of that when school's outer daycare is out you have to take him off work to o stay home with their children. any of the 401(k) that i am putting into, whether i'm off for a day or six weeks with my children. i am not putting into my 401(k) lay. it smacks the 40 hours. if i work 60 hours i'm only putting -- i'm only allowed too or the company only matches up to 40 hours of what i work. if i don't work that 40 hours i'm already behind.

thank you very much but again your you very much for testimony. thank youti mr. chair. thank you all for being here. we share concern how do we improve retirement not for elon musk but for the folks below him. and so ms. ghilarducci, circa circuitbasket in don'ts it's coe restart and let me defer to him? okay nevermind. but really the two of you ms. greszler and ms. ghilarducci are assigned to different things but you made the point the lowest portion that's have the hardest time. but you mentioned that your statistic, i wrote it down, 50% of those just getting by has decreased by one half 1%. that income was 123% of pre-retirement income. so, can you respond and i'll ask you to respond. >> yes i would love to we heard

some widely different statistics here. the difference is looking at survey basic data which address asks-b individuals whether incoe is versus administrative data suchda as irs tax records of people have actually reported on their taxes. economists will tie the irs data is the most accurate for multiple reasons first of all you are less accurate to lie on your taxes about the way the survey did is ask things like a fine contribution plan you might not take a regular amount out every month will not show up. there've been studies done shown that median female and retirement looks like she is 45% less income than she actually does based on the survey did it when you compare the actual irs tax records you will see in page three of my testimony here there isis a study that's using irs panel data 123% replacement at that median 93% replacement. so most people on their tax records appeared to have

significant income in retirement. >> can you briefly respond to that? [inaudible] >> of that study is old. c.p.s. has been corrected for that. i use a much more companies of study from the university of michigan that looks at what happens of people live their lives after they filed all their taxes but went to their life cores and right on the verge of retirement, how much they have. that is been double checked with irs date it with administrative records. and i stand by my written testimony the bottom half has barely anything. the middle 200,000, the top half almost a million. >> and ms. greszler in the last word quickly question. >> the date is a viable internet. look them up at federal reserve.com. >> great to talk your group yesterday thinknk if your hospitality. you mention the benefit going back to what you mention ibm. ibm has a relatively stable employment. when i look here it says the

average number of jobs someone holds in the six year period from 18 -- 24 is 5.7. an average of four-point live from 25 until 34. and 2.9 from 35 to 44. it does seemed like our current job market people move a lot thedefined contribution allows u to take that with you as opposed to weight, at the vesta for five years before i qualify which is what we do in the federal government. if youle are not here for five years you do not vest. there doesn't seem to be a major advantage of a defined contribution as opposed to a defined benefit. >> thank you. i think younger workers have always been more prone to move around and switched jobs. >> this shows if you will even in the 30s workers are moving around. >> yes there is a bit of a chicken and egg thing. private employers moved away from incentivizing careers we

see less people having longer careers. in contrast the public sector has maintained a stable workforce incentivizing careers is not uncommon to walk into a school and see a teacher has put in 20 years in that school. to the extent there actually are changes because i think there's always been turnover. the incentives have changed dramatically. >> on your mind if we had defined benefit people will be more likely to stay with their jobs? >> we know that. >> i will say whenever i read aa large number of meta is laying off a bunch of people is often not i the workers choice it is e employer's choice. just to point that out. i think ms. chambers has pointed out to the anxiety of an investor who is dependent upon her retirement the stock market moving up and down. it's one thing if you have a question but it is another in your experience is another of oh

my gosh i am 10 years away. the term you mentioned step up and lock in. now i'm guessing from what i am hearing is that as a way to deal with the anxiety of the small investor can you elaborate? >> absolutely got it exactly right. and again is taking the best at what the w pension world has to offer and bringing that into the defined contribution plan we have developed that a number of my peers have developed solutions that address that issue oney 100%. what i love about these as we still know 60% of americans did not have an advisor that probably goes without saying paper what we are describing is making these available inside of the 457 plan for 0k but you get that it meant institutional leveling at the oversight that comes from major corporation or small corporation because you got to wrap up i think you've made your point. >> mr. gerry could ask unanimous consent to enter an inch of the statements the american benefits council the industry can meet the american council of insurers

the insured retirement institute ira the american retirement association. >> without objection. quick senator casey? >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you for the hearing. i want to thank in particular are witnesses for your testimony and the expertise you bring to the hearing. i don't think there's anyone in this room that does not understand the scope of this problem but especially after thd testimony of how important it is to have enough savings for all of life's needs. no matter where a person lives. no matter the circumstances that of course includes retirement. we know secure reliable pensions have been phased out by major corporations over time. that it might judgment are increasingly cutting costs on the backs of workers. this has contributed to some devastating data with regard to retirement savings in the gaps there in. professor i wanted to start with you about the findings you cite

in your testimony i want to make sure i get this right. half of americans their retirement age is 51 -- 64 have no wealth in retirement accounts. and also that same group meeting age is 61 -- 64 have no home equity. >> that is true too. that is because our debt creating institutions have w overwhelmed our wealth creating institutions for most american workers. student loans, note down payments for your house. credit card debt. babysitting money. the ability to take money out of your retirement account rate that is the count of first resort. it should a be the account of no resort until he retired. so, our wealth institutions have not worked for most americans. >> i wanted to talk to about a

bill i introduced to confront part of the problem is called 401 kids savings act to help at least begin to reverse these trends. this bill automatically create savings account for all children. all children in the country. with federal support for low and moderate income families. glenside when theld child reachs the age 18 funds can be used for higher education but can be used to start small business first home retirement. starting to save at birth means families can put the market to work for them lead to compound savings and greater assets later in life. to illustrate this and at one particular example the aspen institute found starting savings at birth rather than age 32 in the typical family start saving for retirement result in an additional foreign and $73000

for retirement. that is what our 401 kids plan can achieve. aunt asked mr. stevenson or others the importance of savings. >> i can quote einstein that say the power of compound interest is onerf of the most powerful forces on earth. it works the other way. i have i debt you start compound the other way. it's a really good plan. start with wealth and accumulate it. >> center what i would add we encourage savings at any rate at any level. what i would add it we auto enroll everyone at age 21 when they graduate from college who would not have a crisis either. we make a future progress just getting people start at 21 versus 31 captures a vast

majority of the number that you quoted. mr. doonan i know i'm getting close to running out of time but go into what is your sense in terms of the importance of starting savings at birth?th none water. >> i think when you look at retirement system is to comment to started age 40 pretty have a short timeframe. you doo not have the opportunity for investment returns to support the cause for retirement so starting earlier makes the math work better. m it could help with and equity issues. possibly relieve some financial pressure distress, that sort of thing to pick. >> pay. >> thank you verynk much. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you. >> i want to ask ms. greszler this question. did it ever it makes sense to borrow money to consume, to spend?

start over. >> yes sure there is good debt. i am saying to spend it to consume it as opposed to investing it. you know there's a big difference of the back to the question does it ever make sense to borrow money to spend it in the present for something other than an investment? >> rarely. what about you? >> only if it is going to produce return over time. you just flip the two investment. i would like to propose this piece ofwh information. when we came out of world war ii we had thehe highest debt in the history of our country. but that was the greatest generation they grew up in the depression. they fought world war ii. we somehow ended up paying off all of that p debt building the interstate highway system, begs the question how much of what

ails us today when we even display it through our own federall government that we area society that wants to live in the present to where you are not investing for the future. and here i will point out in the institution that wants to be the backstop for some of this stuff we are talking about it would be wonderful if we could do it. five years ago when i got here we are borrowing a trillion a year. now it's a trillion dollars mentionx months not to i think you did earlier social security goes broke and nine years. medicare in four or five. we do not fix even that. aren't we missing the make main issue that may be as a country, as a society we lost sight of what builds for good future? my point would be you need to

become savers and investors inherently rather than consumers and spenders which we become as a society through government. ms. ghilarducci could you comment on that? and then ms. greszler. >> you've got it right there really good investors. >> the government is a good investment question. >> absolutely free just told me the highway bill because as a tangible project. they've got an asset and i would agree with their with infrastructure projects human capitol big investor in education. that has a rate of return so i am with you. >> but have we gone too far out a variety of subjects to be credible as a place to come in and try to fix the same thing we are talking about that we are abusingbu here? >> i do not buy in on the abuse but we are together on the barbecue do as a government should be investment absolutely. >> i would disagree the

government is a good investor. do not think it is it will be wonderful to talk about having children beg able retiring a day when we have the exact opposite issue pointed out that is the reverse of compound interest. so we have children being born already there immediately birding with $100,000 or more and debt they are going have to pay off in the future and so the best thing the policymakers can do to create a brighter future for every generation is to not burden them with that debt. >> i agree one 100%. it is kind of sanctimonious to be talking about it from here when we would be the greatest example of kind of abuse the whole equation of not trying too borrow money to live in the present it's always a bad business plan. ms. greszler it got a situation back in indiana there's an act called susan monthly act which was an example back when government did step in it picked

winners and losers. and again this had to do with an automotive industry to wear werecertain folks got bailed ou. some didn't. i've begs the question of when we do step in can we be in the business of picking winners and losers? that even iff we do want to do that are wheat financially in a position to pick any winner or loser in her current shape? >> no. this is the perfect example of how will we do have these systems are broken and the government steps in and bails out some and not others that's absolutely unfair. the situation with the delphi workers those got bailed out we got when a billion dollars as a package of what was at least 17 billion-dollar bailout for the uaw and the big three without which older worker pensions would not be there today. and nowow we have a situation yu nice you got a billion dollars. same company nonunionized and they have got nothing.

90% the workforce is not unionized. >> i will part with the statement. never borrow money to consume it. get good at investing. your future will be better off u would not count on this place fixing it until we get our own house in order. >> senator kaine. >> think it mr. chairman thank you to the witnesses. we do things all the time that benefit some people and not others. the notion doing good for some people is not a good thing to do because you didn't do it good for everybody. every program that we work on usually has some target audience and then it may not benefit other people we figure other programs to benefit them. so the notion we helped people preserve pensions but it was a bad idea because we did not help everyone preserve a pension the american rescue plan we acted as part of that it passed by one senate.the one vote and protected the pensions of 2 million workers. that followed up w and earlier

vote we do to protect the pension of united mine workers and that number was smaller but it's a good thing. by protecting those of pensions we actually protect other pensions as well because it i is less likely those failure of those pension plans would drive down the funding levels of pbgc and others who have pensions that were not necessary protected are p going to end up more protected as well. so mr. chair and know you probably felt the same way. there can be a lot of frustrating days around here. there were three times when i have been her and something's happened by one vote saving the affordable care act happened by one about the american rescue plan 2 million workers pensions happened by oners vote. inflation reduction act cutting prescription drug costs and advancing clean energy economy happened by one vote.ne there are some days you wonder why you are here right on the day something happens by one vote you think wow i'm really glad i decided to seek office and be in this place.

sometimes it is about one person standing up for a couple items i want to emphasize and these are some items and work with senator cassidy. first is auto enrollment, auto reenrollment. we have and re- enroll bill that periodically sweet people in have them enroll in their company's plans and give them the ability to opt a out. it is similar to what would with healthla insurance we are every year at drago knew about health insurance and making you think you have the right planner you want to switch. if we could do that more often on the retirement options with employers it would be ald great thing and it is a bipartisan proposal i would like us to do. the second one i want to focus on his young workers paid the statistics kind of surprised me. 2.7 million americans between the ages of 18 and 20 work full-time hours 2.7 million americans. for 40% of workplace retirement

plans have a minimum age threshold of 21 to be able to participate in retirementt plan. we ought to change at 218. we ought to have workplace retirement plans pick up 18 , 20 year old that are working and include them in retirement as well. the helping young american save for retirement active something senator cassidy and i are also working on. again it's noncontroversial andv bipartisan. and the last thing i will say and i'm one of these people trying to do for hearing today so i'm going to defer some time back. esop you want to talk about retirement security, 10 million americans that work have some powerful retirement security. some powerful retirement security. esop predominately in the usual industries for some reasons the construction and contracting intercedes them. increasingly you see it in retail. increasingly you see it in some hospitality industries.

and if we can continue to promote esop through our tax code or through othere strategis that is an element retirement security that can be really, really helpful for american workers and that mr. chair i iyield back. >> thank you. >> thank you chairman. congress has provided explicit instructions to the department of labor on numerous occasions how to encourage americans to save for their retirement. however the current fiduciary rule proposal directly contradicts these directives. if implemented will furtherpe restrict access, increase cost to consumers, limit personalize financial advice only allow consideration of very basic investment products. so this approach towards retirement investors is incompatibleib with the current system or individual retirement savers are able to make decisions for themselves. mr. stevenson do you believe the

counterproductive to the great bipartisan work in the secure act and secure act 2.0? >> it is a great question. one of the things we talked around today's financial editor more education were tradingni financial literacy does not work we have all done tons of programs auto enroll, auto escalate those things are so powerful as it relates it is such a broad and sweeping piece of legislation or proposal will take our eyeye off the ball fora long time our ability to implement all the way you've done. it will stop a lot of the things we are working on that are so positive and bipartisan it is a major distraction and it is a major expense in those expenses will flow to places we won't like.. >> sounds like a bad idea. mr. stevenson would you agree the sentiment that simon folks are living longer inflation is rampant and there is a need toin start saving more and saving earlier for retirement that this

rule would leave people worse off? >> it certainly has the potential there are some challenging parts to it. and again i would stick to the point there is so much power created and expanding access, making it easier for small businesses do the things that we want them to do. young savers, student loan match if we implement those things we are going to make a huge huge debt and the challenges we talked about today and that will really put that at risk for a few years. close talk for a minute mr. stevenson about issues that will help my constituents and ff folks across the country with retirement instead of hurting them. as this isre likely to secure 20 had several incentives to help small businesses cover startup costs associated with employment retirement plans. while these bipartisan measures were importuned a simple miscalculation means tax credit does not work for t the smallest

businesses out there. i am working to introduce the senate companion to the bipartisan rise act. with this bill doesss is address the miscalculation to help offset the smallestfs businesses allows them to offer retirement plans to the employees. do you have a positive outlook whether tax credits like these will actually help boost retirement savings are people? is the absolute will. quick could you explain that? so many americans work in small companies everything we could do to remove the barrier from business owner to launching their own 401(k) plan and isr going to be helpful we have proven that time and time again. especially the other features are on auto enroll, auto escalate that is the pattern make it easy for the business to set it up make it easy for the employee to participate. he emplo >> are

versations]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

>> sunday and q&a with chili will honor him official historian bernard author of breaking barriers chili about the history.

>> april 4, 1960 no, no asked to remain open. [inaudible] socialized and listen, new york, chicago, d.c. had the chili bowl. >> chili bow owner bernard damme

check sunday night on c-span q&a. you can listen to q&a and all of our podcast on every c-span now app. c-span is a mobile app featured and featured you of what's happening in washington live and on-demand keep up with today's biggest events with live streams of floor proceedings and hearings of the u.s. congress, white house events, the court, campaign and more from the world of politics all at your fingertips, you can also stay current with the latest episodes of "washington journal" and scheduling information for c-span tv networks and c-span radio plus a variety of compelling podcast with the google play, scan the qr code to download for free today or visit our website c-span.org/c-span now. c-span now your friend reseda