without further ado, we're very

excited to be welcoming laura meckler. she is a national writer for the washington post, where she covers education across country as well as national policy and politics. she previously reported on the house presidential politics, immigration, health care for the wall street journal, as well as health and social policy for the associated press. her honors include nieman fellowship and livingston for national reporting, and she was part of the team that won a george polk award for justice reporting, and she is a fellow at washington was wesley lowery she was due to be here today but

instead we've got jesse holland which is just as good a nationally renowned journalist, educator and author with a portfolio of stories that challenge perspectives, reshape narratives and inspire change. he's the author of the award winning nonfiction books, the invisibles, the untold story of african-american slaves inside the white and black men built the capital discover an african american history in and around washington, d.c. jesse is a weekend host of washington journal and c-span, and the associate director of the of media and public affairs at the george washington university. so join me in welcoming laura meckler jesse jesse holland. wow, this is quite the turnout. this great. this is great, isn't it? i very much so. i mean, not so great for the people who don't have seats, but, you know, really, really

great from this point of view. it's good for them. well, we'll keep engaging. look at it. engage again. it's interesting for them, you know, they'll be light on their feet. exactly. so, first of all, i have to say thank you to laura for inviting me to be here with her. i was lucky enough to see it early. copy of this book. and if you want to know what i think about it, just look on the back of my blurb is the last one on it. so so i'm so thank you so much for allowing me to see it early copy of it and for the work that you've done here. so we're going to have a quick conversation and we'll take a few minutes and we'll talk about the and the process of writing it. but we'll also ask for your questions. so we'll i'll i'll stop talking after a while. i'll turn it over to y'all because you probably better questions than i do. and i've already learned there are several people from shaker heights in the audience. and i know you all have questions for her.

so but i want to start this conversation off by asking you, laura, why did you decide to write this book? why was it a time to explore dream town now? well, it's interesting because i was never somebody who particularly wanted to write a book. it wasn't something i aspire to. i was perfectly happy being a newspaper reporter. journalist. in i when people talked about exactly what it took to write books, it sounded wholly unappealing. and i thought, it's not for me. but as i was a reporting a story started at the journal and ultimately ran in the washington post about shaker heights and its relationship with of race. i just started become just more and more attached to the subject. it's something i've been thinking about my whole life growing up there and, it started feeling like, you know, this really could be a book. this is a story that has never been told in a book, although it has been told in many other forms and documentaries and academic work, lots of

journalism and in and around shaker. and i just felt like this was a story that needed to be told. it both sort of has this incredible history that is very unusual about how this community embraced integration over and very different from how it was founded. into this integration pioneer and then it has a very modern story as well about sort of this for racial equity today especially the schools and seeing to, you know, whether kids are getting the same high quality education and same opportunities as white kids there. so what but what you the person to tell this book, what's your connection to? shaker heights. why are you the person to tell this story to the rest of the country. well, i'm from heights. i grew up in shaker heights. so that's the first the first answer. there are i am not the only journalist from shaker heights, though, not by not by a long shot. but so i was very grounded. the material and have been covering education for the last five years. so i've also very grounded sort

of the national issues around around and of the book is heavily, not exclusively but heavily about education. and it just something that i really found myself thinking deeply about and i thought that i had something to say so other people could, would probably also do a great job with this wonderful material. but, you know, they they can write the next book about explain to us how you landed on the title of dream town. what does that mean for you? what does that mean for the story that you're telling? so the title was initially inspired by a quote in an article written by cosmopolitan magazine in 1963. this article came about because at the time shaker heights, the wealthiest city in america, and wrote a story. the headline on the cover of the magazine was the good life in shaker heights. and it was this description of essentially and the suburban dream. and there's a line that says, this is the story of an american dream town come true. and i thought about that. and then at that same in 1963,

of course, dr. king spoke about a different kind of dream and. that's also a dream that shaker midnight was just in the beginning at the time. but it's also been trying for many to make come true. so for me, it was combination of those two ideas. could one place be both things at once? and and i'll just say one more note about the title, which is that for me, it's it's when i think about it, it's less about this is a dream town. this is a perfect place has come. everything has come true. you know, go here and all your dreams will fulfilled. it's not that simple. it never is that simple. but it is a it's to me, the word dream is almost more of a verb. it is a place that is dreaming it is a place that has these dreams and is constantly working on them. and i'm sure we'll get into that as we go before we get into the substance of the book, which, again, i was lucky enough to read and early copy of it. tell us about your reporting and writing, how many interviews that you do, how much time did you spend working on this book?

so i had done a lot of work on it already for. the article that ran in the post, the article ran a lot of journalists in the room. it was a 6000 word article which is long for a newspaper article. by far the longest one i had ever published. i had interviewed than 100 people at that point. i thought, well, you know, i'm halfway there. well, it turned out i was not quite halfway there. i was little bit on the way there. i did count them up. i ended up interviewing more than 250 people. some of them were main characters in the story who i talked to repeatedly, many, many interviews. some of them were kids sitting in a cafeteria. i went around, went around the table and heard from, you know, five people at once. but a lot of different perspectives. it was also heavily documented. there have have be reliance on documents, especially well, not just for the early history for some of the mid history as well. there's a lot of wonderful resources in the cleveland area where the groups parent groups and community associations, the

housing office, all of these different have those records have all been preserved and available and were just found many fascinating in there. i looked at according to my evernote program, a well over a thousand documents. wow. now, just for the audience, it's knowledge. i used to teach nonfiction book writing and go to college for years. so i've talked to many, many authors. and i always ask them this question for future authors. tell us about your writing process when. did you find time to write? when's that spot in the day where words flowed for you? after my kids went to bed. that's basically what it was for me. i am a night person, so every night at around. 9:00 and rather than, you know, settling in for another episode, shark tank, i was at my computer writing and, you know, it was one of these things. and i think a lot of us have probably had this experience just regular journalism as well. where i started out with, i knew

how many words i had to have sort of divided that by the number of chapters, think, okay, can i get to this point? and then there came a point where it was, oh, this is this is too long. i better start, i'd better start cutting. so it was mostly at night and, you know, of course, weekends and wherever i could find time, write. i took a couple of short book leaves, but a lot of it was done on my own time, honestly, that that's the way it is for most writers. when people ask me, when do i write? is usually between 11 p.m. and 2 a.m. yeah, that's the only quiet time in the house. yeah, because i'm also a father. so luckily my kids a little younger, so they went to bed all before. otherwise i would have been completely in trouble. so let's talk. let's delve into the book. you start out with the founding of shaker heights. tell us a little bit that story, how it sets what we saw the for the narrative of the book. sure. so shaker heights was developed by the oddest pair of brothers i have ever read about their names were mj and o.p. van swearingen. they were raised in poverty

themselves, went on but very ambitious, went on to become essentially real estate developers and creating this community that was meant to be as elite as they came the sort of the best of the best with exacting architectural standards. it was garden suburb that was modeled over. the idea that you were not just living near a park but in a park, there were expansive lawns in front of the homes, all the houses. just so there were rules about what materials you could use, what the garage had to look like, what color scheme you could have. there was no industry. there was. just a few little commercial areas, land set aside for schools, for a country. the idea was that this was going to be for the the the the cream of the crop in the city of cleveland and it's the inner ring suburb joins the city of cleveland at the time was the sticks but they were as families were moving out wealthy families were moving out of cleveland into this area. that's that's what was creating.

and these brothers were just very odd. they had like an eight bedroom mansion, but they shared a bedroom with each their own single twin bed. they were basically had no social life. they were just basically about work all the time and just never wanted any press. didn't show up to their own events. they're just very odd people, but they they create they had this vision and they saw it through. and it was also, we should say, the given the subject of the book, a overtly racist place as well, that you could not it was meant for white people, black people not get in. they were drummed out if they tried to get in early on. there were covenants on the deeds the covenants did not specifically say who wasn't allowed. you had to get permission from the band square and company if you wanted to sell and they made sure who that who was allowed in and who was not that seems to be an unlikely origin for a town that becomes known for trying to reach a racial equality. how do we get from a for wealthy white elites to the shaker

heights we're talking about. yeah that's why and that is in fact why it's so important to understand that history to appreciate what happened next so the early black families who moved in were drummed out. they did not were not able to stay. but then in the mid fifties, there were a few black families who managed through various ways, various very creative ways to buy property in was actually the city of cleveland. but the shaker heights school system, which was a swath of the city of cleveland that's in the shaker school district and the the initial reaction was just like it had been years earlier when a black family arrived, a meeting, an urgent meeting at the elementary school. what are we going to do about the so-called undesirables as the lovely term that was used? i think thought they were being clever by not actually saying people so undesirable. so it was just not we're not against black people, we're just against people anyway. but there's something different happen there and in fact, i

should also say soon after of the houses of one of the black families that was under construction was firebombed and the garage was destroyed and the response to this was very different than what had happened. 30 years earlier. there were white people living there who were horrified by this, who did not want this to be what their community was. they want they they wanted a different path. and they decided to do something that is actually both very ordinary and perhaps somewhat extraordinary, which was to get to know each other. they just started out with clubs where they would get together for barbecues, and then this evolved into a community association. this neighborhood is known as la, though, and there actually are a couple level kids here. i know at least, and this evolved into a community that decided to work actively work against the forces of systemic racism that were keeping this, this and all white neighborhoods, white, which i'm sorry, i misspoke what they

decided to work against, they initially tried to keep it all white, but once black people arrived, then the real estate agents and the banks did everything could to essentially help that neighborhood flip block bus scare white people into leaving in the beginning. if you are a black, you couldn't get a loan to move into white neighborhood. once the neighborhood started changing. if you were a white family, you couldn't get a loan to move into that neighborhood. it was a bad investment. it was risky, quote unquote. and this group of of families, these these pioneers and both white, black, decided that they were going to fight back against this. so they essentially created their own housing service. they recruited they advertise, and they brought they celebrate their wins. they manifested success. think it's fair to say before they even had it and slowly the numbers started to change and white families started moving in and that eventually ethos just sort of spread to rest of the city and eventually changed the

very identity of the city well. i grew up in the south in 1970s and the first half of that story sounds very familiar, but the second half is the part where everyone's working together is a bit different from my experience in the south. what was so different about this neighborhood? what made that happen? who made that happen? well, i think it was a combination of the the fear that initial group of love, though, i think is the was the most important people. they now in mind. you know, this is as the civil rights movement is really gaining force, they saw themselves as kin. there were a lot of jewish families there who also there were a lot -- who were active in the civil rights movement, national and the families who were living there felt that that was part of their calling. well, they they just there was something about also putting aside their sort of moral interest in it. there was also sort of a shared

class interest it as well in that they didn't want to move. they didn't want to leave and they wanted saw a kinship with these families, these were these these black families who moved in? were incredibly accomplished people. they were had a lot and they had a lot in common as well. and they were able to see that and that, i think, was the basis of of the work that they did together. one of the things that impressed me when i read the early copy of the book, and i think i might have actually told you this, is that many of these stories are always told from the white perspective, and people are always interviewing the white families about what happened. you actually talk to some of the black families as well. how did you ensure that their voices were authentic in what were writing? how did you ensure that their stories are actually being included in this and they're being represented fairly in this story? well, that's something, of course, that as journalists, that is our job in, general, to

do to interview people who are both, that we have things in with and also who we have differences as well. but i was particularly sensitive to the fact that i was a white reporter, white journalist writing about these issues of race. and so i was very careful to spend a lot of time with and not just this is true with white people as well who i talked to, but to make sure that i was representing them the way especially their families stories, the way that felt that accurate and authentic to them. so reviewing with them exactly what i was planning to say, you know, and spending a lot of time, these were not just like one off interviews for the deep family that were told these were many conversations over a long period of time. but let's move away from the town and talk about the school. so is all of this affecting the school system and shaker heights? what are the parents and the children doing? are they seeing in the school system as the town is going through all of these changes?

right. so you know, integration, the arrival of black families is sort of spreading across other neighborhoods. and in fact, one particular there was one neighborhood in shaker that did experience rapid white flight. it's called moreland. there were the school became over whelming lee black, one of nine elementary schools, and that was just sort of the way it was until the arrival of a superintendent named lawson, who was a very forward looking person. and he saw this. now this, of course, he arrives in the mid sixties so brown versus board of education is a decade old now. not that people are necessarily adhering that order, but it is on the books and part of our national conversation and. he sees what's happening at maryland and says, well, we really need to do something. and he puts forth a voluntary bussing plan was never subject to a court order or any at this point in time, any external pressure as far as i know, or is able to find they he puts

forward a plan and his plan was to bus the kids who were in maryland out to and essentially disperse them among the majority white elementary schools. so this was a very forward looking plan, although, you know, one of the themes of this book is that there really are not sort of heroes and villains. these are just like, for the most part, people, good people with good intentions, trying to do the right thing with blind spots as well. mistakes, even as they're making progress. and in this case, the the families in maryland actually did not want, in one way, bussing plan, not surprisingly, sort of the idea. well, we're going to just close your neighborhood school, though. of course, the white schools were just as segregated as theirs was, if not more so, and they wanted it to go both ways. which lesson? pretty much ignored, but then something again, that i think is quite extraordinary happened, which was white families living in shaker decided that it wasn't fair for it to be a one way bussing plan, either. they spoke up and formed a

committee for voluntary two way bussing, volunteered send their own kids to maryland and. that's ultimately once that happened that's when the plan changed. right. and they sort of allied with those the families living in maryland. and it became a two way voluntary bussing plan, voluntary in both directions. right. and that really, i think that combined with this housing work that had happened in the decade prior, really started to solidify shakers reputation, a place that was really tackling integration. right. and this is all great and it sounds wonderful, but when you look at the schools, what was the problem that you were seeing there to have been growing a bit of an achieving it gap? talk about that. yes, there was is a profound racial achievement gap in shaker schools as there is in across the country. i mean, this is note by no means unique, but and that was expressed in many test scores,

grades. one of the ways that most disturbing ways that it was expressed was disproportionate placement in upper level courses. so you had the enriched classes, the honors classes, advanced classes, whatever were called at the time, top level classes really dominated by white students and the regular and lower level classes disproportionately filled with black students and the, you know, the district over the years had sort of a split screen to this. on one hand, they did a lot to try to address some of these things. there were a variety of that were instituted over the years. we could probably spend the whole hour talking about all the things that they did. at the same time, they also sort of it you would hear things from them like, well, a lot of the black kids started their education in the city of cleveland, so they weren't really prepared. but that was sort of an assumption that was made just because a kid starts in cleveland doesn't mean they're not prepared. you know, maybe some. but but not all by by, by means.

but everybody got sort of painted with that brush and there was there were a lot of sort of justification options made. and there were complaints about this level system. it's called for years for decades, these complaints. and i was actually i knew that they had been around. for a while, but i was surprised how far back they went. i'll i'll just tell one story, probably the single most surprising moment i had in this reporting was i was looking i was in the basement of, the high school, looking through some boxes of various types of things. and at the very back of one of the boxes that was about something completely different. i find this academic paper that was written by a graduate of shaker heights high school who is now at harvard. and he this paper for a sociology class. and it was just a wholesale takedown of the level system. he was white. the wholesale takedown of the level system as essentially evolving into something racist and quoting an assistant principal saying, this is our biggest problem now that in of

itself is not that surprising. what was surprising is that this when this paper was written, it was was written. 1969, 1969, which is before the first busing plan know when there was still minority of black students in the system. it was shocking to me that it went that far. and also frankly, very sobering and sad to see. well, one example that you point out, a book that's really sticks out in my mind is one of the african-america students in a history class. and finding out that the teacher has to explain to the students a table of contents is, well, she's yeah. so this is emily hooper and one of the people i write about. she was in her u.s. history class when the teacher says on the first date, you know, boys and girls, check out your books and. this is the table of contents. and she says out loud, you know, if we've gotten this far knowing what a table of contents says, we're all in trouble. and the teacher basically sends her to the office and the counselor says to her, well, you know your only other option is

advance placement. the us history and only other option. that's her, only other choice. and her parents did even know that was an option, so. fine, i'll take that, you know, and this this is somebody who is an extraordinarily bright person. she ends going to yale and graduating with honors and so and yet we have. what was she doing in the regular history class to start? we start i mean, that's the question. and the and those kinds of stories i just heard and over again. so shake her heights is getting everything when it comes to integration of the town how is it going so wrong now in the schools? you know it's it's a complicated and there are a lot of different pieces some of it is these factors of implicit bias and systemic racism that course through all of our institutions and you know it's about making assumptions about what kids do or what they can't do. and i'll tell another story of a girl who i met in a she in

honors english class 11th grade. and she says that she was i was listening to her in class. she was so bright. she just had so many wonderful observations and things to say. and afterwards, i sort followed her out and talked to her and said, you know, you ever think about taking ap english instead of the honors? english there's nothing wrong with honors. english it's terrific. but she was really it was like, this is a who could probably do well in ap. and she said, oh yeah, i was in that for a day. i looked around and there really very many black students and i thought, do i really belong here? and so she went to talk to her counselor, and her counselor said, well, you can down to honors if you want. and she said, i'll do that. and so that story to me illustrates both the fact that there is this loneliness for a lot of that. a lot of people feel in these classes and that it's discourage just people. and then there's also the system itself. why did that counselor that to

her, why didn't the counselor say to her, you know what, i think can do this and we're going to get you support you need and we're going to introduce you to another kid who's going to be your buddy in this class. and you're going to do this together. you know that, why didn't any of that happen? and this was just a few ago. this isn't this is we're not going to call the eighties here right now. so i think some of it is these these pieces of implicit bias that are are over the place. some of it is economic ex the the black population in shaker is a lot less wealthy than the white population. and we know from all sorts research all over the country that kids come from families with fewer resources. this just show up at school with, less capacity to do challenging work because you know, you're spending the summer, you know, with a summer job rather a science camp. well, maybe you're not as prepared for science that when fall comes around, that's just a one small example. you know, if you have parents who have the time and the

effort, the chutzpah to go to the school and complain on your behalf and do all sorts of things that privileged parents do, you know, that puts you in a different position. somebody whose parents may be working multiple jobs and figuring a lot of what a lot of times of your says that, you know, it's a great school district like the schools it from here when in fact you know i think a lot of us who are parents have realized you know, you can't you can never do that you have to be on top of all of these things. so there's there are multiple reasons. these complicated questions talk a little bit about the school administration, the teachers, and how were involved in the tension between parents, between integration, between the students. there was one confrontation in between a teacher and a student. that sort of symbol, ieds, all of these problems. yeah. so this was a very uncomfortable, upsetting situation that happened in 2018. and this was actually the centerpiece of the article i wrote for the post. there was a it was an ap class,

11th grade english class, and there was a black girl who was in the class and she had been struggling a little bit early on. came into class this morning, didn't have the assignment. right. the teacher sort of to her kind of harshly about it in a way that other kids could hear in a way that was very upsetting to the student and, you know, sort of asking her tough questions. what else are you taking? how did do last year? who was your teacher questions like that? and this was an exchange that depending how you look at it and many people looked at it very different ways. it was a teacher trying to help a kid get on track or it was a teacher, you know, with this sort of, you know, you it's so hard to get black kids to sign up for these ap classes knowing that they'll feel so lonely in those rooms and here is somebody is there and and, you know, she's made to feel and singled out what ended up happening after that was that the her mom the girl's mom submitted a

formal complaint charging that the teacher was guilty of bullying and implying that she was guilty of racial discrimination. it led to it the teacher was put on leave that led to an investigation, a lengthy investigate action and all this blew up at a big community meeting where, you know, a lot of teachers were feeling like, hey, can i not talk to a student about improving their performance without being called a bully? and then then at some point, the conversation shifted to parents saying, wait a second, what are we doing here? you know what? what are our values? in fact, near the end of this meeting, the girl, her name is olivia. she just up and got onto the stage herself and outed herself as the person who was in the middle of all of this and asked the question, you know, why? why haven't we addressed this problems? you know, before now? so it was all very it just brought up, you know, like if there's like, you know, some

little scabs, all over the place, just like check them out, ripped them all off and just, like very, very painful, right. but what was different about all of this when i read this book and other communities i've dealt, it seemed like people in shaker heights were willing to talk about it and not instead just pushing it down and hiding it and waiting for the volcano explosion shaker heights is nothing if not willing to talk about these issues. they are they are very engaged. there's a very engaged community talking about race is not taboo by any means. it something that people engage in. there's a student group called the student group on race relations that's been around for 40 years now. and this is what they do. they go into classrooms of elementary schools talking to kids about what does it mean, what does discrimination mean? what is what is racism? what does it mean to be a bystander? what does it mean to be an upstander having conversations and getting to know each other and that? and they also sometimes lead conversations among adults as

well as they did in the aftermath of incident. so, yes, this is a community that talks about these things with all of the heavy stuff. we're talking about here. you injure a book with a on an optimistic note why yeah. yeah i mean it's a fair question. i asked i have asked myself, are there some other people have read the book and, you know, declared this whole thing is is a failure. and i did sometimes wonder as i was reporting this and writing this, like what my ultimate conclusion would be, is this a story of a place that tried and failed and well, too bad or is it something more hopeful? and the truth is, i something more hopeful doing this because, you know, we live in a country where most most people most communities are not talking about any of these issues. in fact, in most parts, most of america, wealthy people are in school districts with other wealthy people, poor usually students of color are in school districts with other poor people. and there's no there's there's

no cross subsidization. there's everyone's in their own boats. and is it a surprise when you have a community full of families who are struggling that there's low test scores? i mean, that's not a surprise. that's that's poorly predictable, nothing to do with what kind of teaching is happening inside that building. and so is a place that is both racially diverse, economically diverse more than ever. and it is still everybody is still in the boat and they're still talking about this and they haven't figured it out. and, you know, this is not a book that's like, here's your five point plan to to to racial equity and, you know, just follow this. you know, 30 day juice cleanse and we'll all be skinny it's it doesn't it doesn't work that way. you know, and this may never these issues may never be fully solved. and in chicago or anywhere else. but i do think the fact that they are still trying and still committed to it is meaningful and again, it's not about it's not about individual heroes and villains it's about people of goodwill and.

so, you know, is that pollyanna ish? i guess maybe some people might think is they may look at these same facts and decide that, you know, it hasn't worked. but i'm i'm more hopeful. what can before i ask this question we're i'm going to have like two more questions. but it's now time for y'all's questions there's a microphone right here. so if you have a question for lower, please line, up at the microphone here and make sure you tell us your name and then if you're from shaker heights, we want to know that as well and then ask your questions. so if you have questions, a microphone right here, what can areas of the country learn from what shaker heights has gone through, what shaker heights has tried do, and even what shaker heights has it right? well, i think one thing they can learn and this is a little more academic, but, you know, there's a lot of conversation this country about what it what it looks like when schools pursue racial equity. and a lot of this is very people

who are very critical. it, you know, view this as overly woke who view this as essentially offensive. i think there would be people who would say this is straight up offensive and there's that's that conversation happens in a very caricatured way. and i think one thing you can learn as well, okay, this is what it is. this is what it looks like when you try now. some people will look at that and say, i don't want that. and that's that's what makes the world go round. but just know what it what, what we're talking about here. you know, i think that that's that's number number two is, you know, there are all sorts of kimmie and this is not the only one. they're working on these issues. they're all over the country, places that diverse communities. and there are all sorts of little nuggets in here about different things that people do. and the big nugget and we don't really know yet whether this is successful or not is and there's this is a chapter. the end is in 2020, in the middle of the pandemic they embarked upon a deep what's called deep tracking, which is combining kids of different

abilities in the same classes, basically from fifth through more or less ninth grade. so there are still these advanced placement and baccalaureate classes offered, but for most of the classes underneath that, kids are being, and the hope is to set more kids up for success, teach everybody at this at a high level and this idea that basically everything that they had tried, you know, up to then, you know, what had worked in fact, i had a very unsettling moment. i was one nice thing about the age we live in is i could watch like all the school board meetings online, you know, from the comfort of my house, you know, half a mile from here. and at one point there was a conversation about the tracking and the curriculum director starts off his remarks and says, i was sitting there being interviewed by laura meckler from the washington post. i'm like by myself in my office. and he says and, she just looks at me and says, but it's not working. i was like, and she was right. and i was like, well, i didn't tell you to do it in the middle of a pandemic.

but anyway, i said that to myself. he didn't hear me over the over the over the over the computer. but anyway, i think you learned something about that. about what? that looks like both good and bad, about what it looks like when you try that. and that is a strategy that other places are going at as well. and that's a perfect segue way to my final question. one of the hardest things for any writer or author to do is to write about your own town. now that this is out, can you go back home at. yes, i was back home last week the entire week, and we had a multiple events that were overflowing with people. i'm not sure it was this overflowing with people. it's by the way, i'm just thank you all so much for coming out. i really it but there was a lot of warmth and and like i this is a place that's used to being engaged in these questions. i mean, there's definitely you know, there are some people who don't like everything that i had to say here, no question about it. but but i wasn't there was no

there was no bodily injury. so no no one no one through anything at me, no eggs, no shoes, no anything like that? not yet. not. okay. so i'm going to turn over the conversation to the audience here. first. so once again, if you have a question for laura, please line up at at the microphone down here. of course, as you can see, i have like two more pages of questions i can through, but i think it's much more interesting, y'all, especially some of you who are from shaker heights, can come up and ask a question. so the one thing i will ask is that you tell us who you and then ask your question. okay, so we'll start. we'll start right now, please, sir, your question. my name is david and can you talk about relations, -- and catholic with communities of color. i don't know a lot about the relationship between the

community, which is not huge in shaker heights and communities of color, the relationship. but there is a substantial jewish population in shaker and there has been some very positive things that have happened, like what i was talking about in the ludlow early ludlow experience. but i don't know that it's certainly wasn't exclusively jewish people by any means. so i'm not sure if you have specific was there discrimination or religious? yes. so the original covenants were meant and it's often actually said that they were meant to keep out blacks, -- and catholics all in one. they were all the undesirable place. however, i think it should be said, at least i don't i'm not certain about catholics, but there were jewish families who did get in early. i mean, they did there. i ran into several families whose who people whose families dated back to shaker, you know, into the teens and so i think that's, you know, says a lot about how these things were

enforced that, though, yes, it was hard for -- to get in. it was not impossible. but that's different. it was much different for for black buyers. so i don't think that they were parallel at all. hmm. thank you. i actually have to say, i learned a lot about real estate reading, reading about the early, early origins of shaker heights and that that story just repeated all over the south. a lot of places in the north as well. our next question. hi, my name is kate. i'm born and raised in shaker, graduated from the shaker school system. so thank you. i'm excited to read the book. i'm curious from your national if you've seen any school districts who have succeeded, who have stories similar at different demographics, who are doing the right things and have succeeded where shaker hasn't. i mean, i don't know of any places like the code, you know. i mean, i know there are other places who are engaged in this work, but you know, everybody is struggling with similar issues. i things. hi, my name is nina.

we have family in shaker. my question is the washington post. that original article was a huge article. and i'm wondering why, why did the washington post particular give much so so space to a story about shaker? well, let me just say i'm glad weren't there when that conversation. you clearly. i'm not sure the wall street journal have given me 6000 words. you know, i'll give self-serving answer, which is i'd like to say it earned that space, you know, by it being a compelling story. and but it was also part of a series i actually built a series that year around questions of school integration. so this was one of five stories that was part of that. so it sort of a run of coverage that we were doing.

i mean, the miracles they also then ran ran an excerpt of the book, not at 6000 words, but like 3000 something. just like two weeks ago, i was like, well, i may be testing the washington post's degree of interest in shaker heights, but yeah, i can't say why, but i'm just happy that they did. well, i'll just add and quickly here, as a journalism professor, now you find that the better stories are written by reporters who care about that issue. and we can tell that she cares about shaker heights. so when she pitched it, her editors probably saw her enthusiasm for the story and just bit their tongues and said, go for it. it was probably longer than that. we negotiated down right. hi, i'm lauren. i'm from shaker heights, but i am a journalism student, the george washington university. he's my professor. excellent. and my question is, especially with the education part of this, how did you balance the interviews and opinions of students, parents and teachers, especially if there's bias

against one another? well, i think that that's part of our in general as journalists is to take multiple opinions and come from different points of view of the where we see and kind of put them all together and in a way and the biggest place i actually that balancing act happening was the way the book is organized out of zoo. you're getting it. but the way the book is organized is each chapter is anchored by a different person and who sort of is important at that time in the chronology who sort of moves the story forward. and i was very conscious of having a diversity of people those are as those anchors, both a racial diversity, but also men and women and people from different points of view students, parents, administrators, teachers. so so hopefully my my hope was that by the time you finished reading the book, you kind of have a sense of the perspectives multiple times, maybe not every page giving you every point of view that you get a well-rounded

sense of where people are coming from. so someone has earned their bonus. all right. next. my my name is fred. i'm not from shaker heights, but i am from lorain. and i'm not i'm not from toni morrison's depiction because what you describe early in your book is toni morrison's era. i came ten years later, so when i your title reminded me of what i thought about lorain at the time because we had the four plant we had gm, we had steel mills it was an embarrassment to file for unemployment. when i was coming up. and so i never been a shaker heights i'm going home this week and for the holidays i plan on going to shaker heights. okay. just to get a feel when i get to

the book i experience a lot of racism at all. when i was coming up, i was pampered, no, but just fortunate. and i'm the gentleman assisting you tonight. i'm kind of juxtaposing his comments about south and what happened with your experience at that school. and i'm a firm believer in ohio being a very hospitable state. okay. we just way we are. okay. and. i'm wondering that because it was in the in the north, the surrounding areas of shaker heights played an important role to the integration versus if it was in the south. you went you was a you didn't have a support system that he alluded to. and. while you were speaking, i was

thinking about when i was coming up, i would always hear these riots in cleveland because of carl stokes was being the first mayor at that time. and it was very combustible things on in the city. so i'm just wondering or could you address those dynamics that were going on at the time, which shaker heights you alluded to, the civil rights movement, but that's too vast for me. i wanted know about carl stokes, what was going in the city at the time. but the racial issues and how it affected the city. right. well, that's a huge question that probably can't fully answer here. but i'll just give a little a couple of thoughts. i mean, one at the same time as shaker was working on this voluntary integration, the school's voluntary bussing plan, the city of cleveland right next door, was fighting a court order that to desegregate their schools, suburbs, adjoined shaker heights, warrensville heights and east cleveland, rapid white flight.

so there is nothing that about northeast ohio or, the east side of cleveland or anything like that. the guarantee is that it's going to come out this way. it is that which is why i think this is it's such an interesting story to tell in part. okay. i'm looking at the line and i'm hoping we're going to be able to get everyone's questions, but understand that we have a stop at 8 p.m. so you can keep your it's a hard stop at 8 p.m. so if you can't keep your questions succinct, we'll get as many as possible. okay, quick name is george. as you both know, cleveland, a very divided city, east. west. so somebody had to be here to represent the west but growing up on west side, i was very aware of the racism there and and we were aware that shaker was, you know, more of a leader on that. and then later at the plain dealer, i covered cleveland schools and and the problems there. i was just back in cleveland

last week, and i was struck by far the west has come on race. do you think that since you were just back there that the shaker heights still has that kind of leadership or is the gap narrowed in terms of race in particular? yeah, i do think it still does, to be honest. i think that especially as sprawl has taken, you know, a lot of people further out, you know, those communities, you know, pretty white you know, i definitely don't put myself up as an expert on the west side of cleveland because, you know, i i'm not allowed go to the west side and i. by the way, george, his father was also a very prominent journalist in cleveland whose work i relied on in this book. so. hi, my name is dwayne. i grew up in the ludlow neighborhood and my family moved there in the early sixties. i went first grade all the way

through, graduated in the 12th grade and. i during my junior year, i was one of those only black students in the ap classes who felt that sense of, you know, not having a group of people that i could connect with in there yet. it did not. it did not disturb me in terms of being able to do what i needed to do. but my my junior year, i approached the school board about why aren't more blacks being encouraged to be aware of these classes and encouraged be engaged them. and of course there were blacks, students who i knew who were probably as bright, not brighter than i were was, but why are you taking those? you know, ap classes, you know, could be acing everything in another level. and at the same time, there was no one really there that was encouraging students are letting

parents know about those things. my ended up spending my last year as a page on capitol hill i had the opportunity to do that i had gotten most of my you know all my necessary things out of the way. ap credits and i spent my last here on capitol hill, but i always wondered what happened in your book was very helpful there were some painful parts to it because i felt like my voice was being spoken in there. but i always wondered what about what was the what was the key to those who black students who were successful in navigating it. the very few, though they may be navigating the the racial divide out there. and and i didn't much about that in the book and what was it about them now i know what it was and ludlow and there's some other ludlow people here we had a, we had family units that were

a huge part and models within our community that regardless of what the, the, you know, barriers were we were going to make it and a physician in this area now and i'm lists and am a facial plastic reconstructive surgeon and ear nose and throat. first african-american head the largest organization of the anti doctors in the country during covid. and i have black students from montgomery county come in my office who are in ap classes have the same problems going on why is that okay. well, thank you for sharing. i, i would i think that one of the reasons why the people have succeeded and the black kids who in those advanced classes is i mean, not a lot of them have very accomplished who have very high expectations for education, you know, and going to that's where their kids are going to. and, you know, i don't know if

that was the case with your parents, but certainly the case with a lot the the that those first wave ludlow families the black families who moved in were incredibly accomplished. you know, doctors and dentists and lawyers. and they were just there was no it was the first one of the first suburbs that was available to them. and it's like everybody who with means and aspirations, it seems like there. so it was an incredibly accomplished group of people so you know so i think that that explains why and that's still true today, too. of course, there's, you know, lots of still in chicago, lots of very black families and a lot of their kids are in those advanced classes. so it is it's not about nobody being there. it's just about the numbers are not where they should be. and and just because you come from a family with means, does that mean that none of those kids can make it in those classes? you know, obviously they can, but it just it takes more work. so maybe another to be told. always another story to be told. at least 6000 more words. i just come.

i just have to say really quickly, one of the biggest compliment you can give any author is to tell them, i heard my voice in that story. thank you for a second. i have to say, sweet red raiders hat. all right. hey, laura, check your grad. this didn't give it away. matt lehman. and i was actually one of those kids who was reverse to moreland. and then parent of a 20 and a 21 grad from the high school as well. and one of the things, did you you talk a little bit about the economic disparity. and as someone who grew up there, you know, went through the schools in the seventies and then had kids, went through the and the twins, obviously it seemed a lot more disparate than when i was there. the best indicator we had when my kids were in school was a number of folks were on free or reduced, and that did ten proportionately towards the black students in the school. did you have any data from on? did you see a trend that changed? because i felt it but i wasn't sure if you saw that from a data standpoint the data absolutely

bears that the first year that the census gives data both race and income cross together was 1989. and that which obviously i was 1989. and what that showed was at that time, the median black income was about 65% of the median white income in shaker. so was a disparity. but then by 2020, white income had up, black income had fallen, median black income had fallen. it was 35% of white income. and part of that was because wealthy. black families had other options and took them. and part of it was because there were parts of shaker, partly due to the housing crisis that where the that opened up to lower income people housing vouchers started to be accepted there were some of these properties foreclosed upon out-of-town landlords them they were willing to accept housing vouchers where people hadn't before. so lower income people were arrive so yes. so the those economic disparities did not just imagine

they have grown larger and that and that in a way is actually it's big challenge. but at the same time, it's also like a big opportunity, like here's here's a district that's educating both kids who qualify for poverty programs and very, very wealthy kids. and that's, you know, that's not a bad thing. thank you for telling the story. thank you. yeah. 5 minutes left. so i'm going to ask those who are left. we're going to get into our flash session. so ask quick questions. we'll see if we can get quick answers. okay hi, my name is tricia. i'm also a proud shaker schools grad, so thank you for writing this book. looking around this, we do see that the majority turn here is white and growing up in shaker. notice that a lot of the community about race whether that through the school board or even score was dominated by white people. i'm wondering whether you came across that in your research and what you make of it's a it's a huge problem and i think it's both and that there's there's blame to go around for

everybody. you know part of it's the system in the sense of like do people those spaces places where people feel comfortable, you know, are the peatos rooms that people feel welcome. they walk in. if you're a black mom, you walk in or dad and all you see as a bunch of white moms who all know each other and are clicking clacking away together, like maybe you don't feel like this is a place for you, but there's responsibility. and then and again, we we talked about how, as a rule, i don't like to make these generalizations because it does not apply to everybody. but there are a lot of lower income, black living there who have a lot on their plate. i mean, i told the story of one woman who, you know, when she got to shaker originally she had three jobs and you know she's like she said i was so out of the loop i didn't where the loop was. i shouldn't know. there was a loop. you know, it's just too busy. just kind of getting through day to day. so they're not engaging. and so and some of the is on me to somehow find the way to engage and be part of those conversations so it goes both ways think there's but that is

definitely as frustrated school leaders because they're out there trying to engage with the current administration trying to engage with alchemy entities and it's harder it's harder with the lower income community. chica definitely. thank you. thanks. yes. i don't have a question. i just wanted to make a statement actually. i came just to have my signed because i am beverly mason sister and for those of you who have read the book or even perused the book, beverly and ted are a subject of the third chapter. and they were one of the first black families to move in the first the first the first right black family to in to shaker beverly coming a very segregated town in, southern west virginia. ted coming, a very southern segregated town in southern ohio. they met at western reserve. so very highly educated people. ted was dentist.

beverly had her master's in social allergy social work and the next door neighbor was a baptist minister who immediately put his house on the market and beverly and ted worked very hard with first with the ludlow association and then beverly with the busing program. she ran the bus program, ran the fencing program. and so my family was very proud of what the two of them did. absolutely and thank you for writing the book and for including your. your you truly have a remarkable there. i wish i had it would have had a chance to know your sister and had to. and this is going to have to be our last question. okay. hi, laura. i'm shelly stokes and i'm very happy to meet you on the book.

and with me is kathy day. both of us grew up shake hands. i'm also a washington post as well as a shaker alumna. and we just i just to say that the two of us grew up in shaker. our fathers are both civil rights attorneys who, fought on multiple cases that to the supreme court to help desegregate schools across just in cleveland but across the country. but my grandmother was also a domestic worker there for many years. so i to just share those things and we're really curious as to how many people are here. cathy, you put the call all right. we wanted to know, could people from shaker we're curious we keep meeting raise your hands raise your hand. wow sally i were thinking and we do thank you for writing the book. and i know i spoke to you before, so we were thinking of trying to have a shaker club that's so see what you say.

they'll be collecting names also we say that sally's father was in my class. can i just say that shelly, shelly's father, was not just a civil rights or he was louis stokes, who was a very distinguished congressman for many years, representing cleveland shaker. and he said and, niece of carl and jackie stokes. and carl stokes is our uncle, who was the first african-american mayor of a major city, major american city. this is not just any family here. so i want to just on what you say, but it has to be like say, okay, i would i literally my grandmother when i was at shaker, my grandmother was the domestic of a kid that was in my class. yeah. wow, yeah, wow, yeah yeah. well, they have actually a lot of the people that are. i just want to end with, but just i want to end with a quick story about your dad, which is when i was in high school, he came to speak at the school and i actually asked him about the disproportion number of white kids in the advanced classes.

and i actually don't remember what his answer was. i don't that he had an answer. anyone more than any of the rest of us did. and then when i the reporter for the associated, when i got here, lots of applause here to i i him for a story i was doing about health care disparities. and i reminded him of this and and he gave me one of the best compliments ever. he said, well, you were asking hard questions even then. so that's like the best thing can say to a reporter. he's it is a great congratulations, everyone, in giving you a great round of applause for laura hello, everybody. welcome to the washington times for this special episode of history. as it happens, i'm martin di caro. november