washington journal continues.

host: joining us again is james jacoby with pbs frontline, director of many documentaries. his latest, crisis on campus taking a look at the last ra serves as a director of many documentaries and his latest one is crisis on campus for taking a look at several months on college campuses. thank you for rejoining us again. >> thank you for having me. >> what this on and prompted you to take a look at this? >> we were working with partners with a nonprofit news organization based out of new york and we decided right after october 7th where we saw immediately that there were student statements and reactions to student statements on the campuses and thought that this was going to be an interesting story to follow, so we started shooting this in the wake of the october 7th hamas attack. as the war developed

and certainly as the protests and protest movement has developed on campus and we had no idea that it would culminate as it has at the end of the school year and clashes with police and schools and presidents having to justify with congress. it has been quite a wild story to follow here. >> have to take a look at it in retrospect, where is the increase coming from, what is the main driver of things increasing. >> there are a number of factors. one is generational. i think this generation of students is activated about this war for a lot of different reasons. i think social media plays a big role in that. i would say that one of the main fact is that we focus on in the film is about the convergence of outside forces that are looking to set the narrative here, whether it be pro-israel are

pro-palestinian forces or political forces or political activists with different agendas. in our reporting and following the story, we found that everyone is looking to set the narrative and was from the get- go. that has created this tempest that we have seen in the past seven or eight months. >> who are the outside forces? who would they recognize outside of the scenes of the students themselves? >> first of all, we start the film right on the evening of october 7 and we set the film initially at harvard university where you have student groups. roughly 30 or so student groups . essentially, they held the israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence. the statement did not mention hamas and we talked to students who build it in this documentary, but you

immediately saw an reaction to that. both jewish students, professors and other notable people on campus. immediately on the outside, it was donor pressure and donor incensed about this and wanted to see the school react. you also saw politicians of course on both sides of the aisle come out and make statements. you saw political activists, like christopher come out and say that this type of statement that the students made was indicative of a larger problem on universities with diversity, equity and inclusion programs and what he sees to be the moral rot that has happened on campuses, especially the elite universities. those forces converged almost within the 24 hours. of course, intensified over the months. >> if you want to ask any questions about his documentary, here the lines that you call different today

but if you are a supporter of the protests and want to ask about what he saw, 202-748-8000 . if you oppose them, to a 2748 8001. if you are a college student or college administrator or work on a college and want to give your perspective, 202-748-8000. starting the documentary and taking a look at a point where they overtake the building. i want to show the folks at home a little bit of that and talk to you about it. >> college protests reaching a boiling point after days of encampment on campus. >> april 30th, protesters containing the bore -- war had barricaded themselves at columbia university. they demanded the school severed ties with israel. >> the protesters say on social media that if columbia tries to

remove them by force, the school will quote, have blood on its hands. >> reporter: less than 24 hours later, columbia university called in the police. >> it looks like a military grade vehicle that is coming down amsterdam right now with protesters on each side. >> we see an officer approaching the window right now. >> wow. >> the first officer has entered the window and people are screaming in response. >> i am now seeing the nypd going in. >> the clashes at colt night with the culmination of months of chaos sweeping across american college campuses. >> that is the high point, why >> the clashes at columbia that night were the culmination of th months of chaos sweeping across american college campuses. >> jacoby, take it from there.

that is the high point. why start there? >> as you can see, there is body camera footage from the nypd. when we saw that and of course when we watched this unfold at columbia and various universities around the country, whether it is ucla or others, how did it get to this point? that is the question we are trying to answer in the documentary. obviously, the point of the most visual attention that we have seen in years at universities and trying to understand in a very calm and sober way. how did we get to this point where we are having clashes between the police and protesters and our elite universities? >> the talk about the clashes and different points if you ever get a sense of talking to the students or people that you

interviewed? did you understand where each other was coming from? >> that was the surprising thing about reporting the story. in the students that we spoke to, there is a tremendous amount of division. there are people who have dug in their heels when it comes to the conflict. there seems to be a great deal of pressure on students to pick a side and stick to it. there is certainly a lot of nuance missing in that or a gray area. of course, it's not just extremes. in the environment that we live in due to social media, extremes are always accentuated. of course, there are pro- palestinian students who have nuanced views of the conflict and certainly jewish students and others who are more moderate. i think what happens is that

the extremes seem to take hold and get the most attention. >> when you talk to students or people that you interviewed, to what sense did you get that they understood the nuances of history going on in the region and the lead up going on in the region? to what sense did you get that? >> it's a great question. it is mixed, of course. there are plenty of students studying this conflict on campuses and seeking out professors and literature to teach them, but then surprisingly when i found surprising is that you talk to students and ask them where they are getting information, whether it is news information or how they are learning about the conflict or avail themselves at some universities with great scholars who have studied this history and the history of the conflict. often, i get answers of, we don't trust the media and we

don't trust our professors. ques, (202) 748-8000. if you support the protests, (202) 748-8001. >> again, if you want to ask questions about the documentary that appears tonight. if you support the protest. for college students and administrators. you can send us a tax. mr. jacoby, in producing this documentary, tell us about the team involved, the deciding factors for who you interviewed and can you elaborate about your involvement. >> absolutely. i worked with two producers, they are at retro report. they did the bulk of the work in terms of going out to schools and finding people to

speak to who can be really articulate about what it is that they are doing from the pro-palestinian movement and also among jewish students, professors that are weighed in on this. and of course the chancellor at uc burke the who is anchoring the film. as a female president of a major university kind of weighs in at points along the story about her views having been an educator and administrator for so long. she makes the point in this film that you asked about. that in her time she will be stepping down as chancellor and retiring. during her time in that position, she is concerned about the level of division and echo chambers that exist on these campuses. whereas universities were

always meant to be places with diverging viewpoints could hash it out and learn from one another. >> let's hear from michael in florida, a supporter of these protests from james jacoby. michael, good morning. >> good morning. i think these kids are the most educated people to go to. they are scholars and they know the truth. the u.n. condemned us and they have seen the movie red dawn. what it would be like for their grandparents. we cannot change the textbooks. that way not only the kids know the truth. this is where the root causes come from. and the problems we have from each other. we missed each and all of our biology textbooks the truth

about survival of the fittest. that is not what evolution says. it is about cooperation. it is not optimized. our entire economic system is based on falsehood. >> what do you want our guest to answer specifically? >> does he understand that textbooks in biology. here's the question. >> i will leave it there. for the sources of education and the building blocks of what students are getting has led to what you are seeing? >> i think that is an important factor here. i think that postcolonial studies and the idea of intersectionality, which is something that the right makes a big deal out of in terms of what is being taught on campuses. how big a deal it is is difficult to assess in reality. it does exist where there are these frameworks. binaries to some extent of

people looking at the world and having a worldview of oppressor and oppressed. if you apply that to the israel palestine conflict or race relations here in the united states or applying that worldview, that is a part of what is happening here. it can sometimes flatten how you view conflicts. again, i would caution without generalizing that this is a pervasive worldview on these campuses. it is there, it is something to be looked at critically if we can apply this intersectional idea to conflicts. >> a viewer from seattle washington. this is scott. scott, good morning. >> good morning.

we had some pretty bad protest here at the university of washington. i was surprised by how many people got the idea that they should be supporting hamas as much as they were. i draw the line there. i'm old enough to remember that they had a hard time controlling this. there are reasons that they do not want them in egypt, they are causing problems in other neighboring arabic countries. i would just think that whatever happens, when this thing ends, i would not trust them with a tablespoon of cement. going out in dressing up in women's clothing and feeding into the crowd and they cannot put a uniform on and fight. if they would do something like

that. or even just negotiate. >> okay. scott, from washington. >> i think what scott just said there is obviously a controversial statement about projecting all of these protesters as pro-hamas. it is a portrayal that is in some cases may be correct. it is not a generalization i would make about the protest movement. there is, of course, the question of if they are condemning hamas and if they feel that hamas is a legitimate resistance to is really occupation or the situation in gaza pre-october 7th. which is a big question that we grapple with in the film.

again, what we challenge with making a film like this, on all sides, there is a lot of painting as different constituencies with broad brushes. that is what we tried not to do in this film. >> one of the players in what we saw play out over the last few weeks, the members of congress themselves. >> we saw members of congress emerge immediately weighing in on this. across the political spectrum, most notably where the hearings in congress that have taken place. the first hearing being december 5th of 2023 when the house education committee run by virginia brox called before the committee the presidents of harvard, university of pennsylvania and m.i.t. to testify.

at that hearing, famous exchange which can be called a famous exchange between a harvard graduate and these three presidents where she posed a hypothetical question to each of these presidents and the answers of which went viral. because of their inability to answer it in a clear fashion. they were trying to navigate some tricky legal concepts and did not answer it very clearly. >> one of the fallouts that we saw after was claudine of harvard. >> that is correct. within weeks of that hearing the president of the university of pennsylvania resigned. and then we saw christopher russo, who is a conservative activist who is leading this

campaign against diversity, equity, and inclusion on college campuses and elsewhere. he published a series of articles about allegations of plagiarism that claudine gay had plagiarized parts of her dissertation. >> pamela is next up from miami. pamela. >> hi, good morning. just a reminder to everybody, october 7th, the murders were quibbling to 50,000 americans. the israelis were murdered by palestinian terrorists. right after that, harvard and other universities exploded with pro-hamas students. this was before any idf

response. university presidents cannot condemn students screaming death to jews. using violence to prevent jewish students from going to classes. i think that this is about the students for justice for palestine organizations that are supported by anti-israel forces. that would organize this with money that expanded the protest. these college campaigns were successful. within months, biden turned against israel. to this day, you can still see in this administration and effort to stop israel from defeating or damaging hamas. >> that is pamela in miami.

any info on funding the groups that you mentioned? >> reporting is yet to be done on these funding groups on the pro-israeli side. that is not really what we get into very deeply in this reporting. we more touch upon what pamela brought up about the student statements, what they actually said, what their motivations were. using the pro-hamas label can be problematic in some cases. we delve into that in this film. i would just say that, yeah, in terms of biden's foreign policy, if this movement has really affected the u.s. stance in any way is difficult to draw that link. there was a moment in the lead up to the invasion and whether

or not the holding back of certain types of u.s. missiles or bombs rather and armaments was related to the protest movement. people have been drawing that has some sort of link. i'm not sure that there is evidence to support that. i do think that pamela raises an interesting point about the politics of all of this. of course, we are in an election year and a lot of people are drawing parallels between now and 1968 in terms of what this might mean for domestic politics. there is a constituency of young people in the pro- palestinian movement that will be a factor, potentially, certainly for democrats. >> james jacoby, director of the documentary, crisis on campus which unveils today. where can people find it? >> we will air tonight on pbs. check your local listings. and of course, it will stream

on the frontline and pbs sites and apps. and you too. >> let's hear from john. john in illinois. john, go ahead. >> good morning. i just want to say that life does not throw is an easy test. we should understand why protesters are protesting against genocide. the new should report the students. with the continuation of the oppression of the palestinian people. against the protesters. there are two sides to a genocide. two thirds of women and children. and four hostages. there is no symmetry here. this is the easiest question ever. if you are for genocide, you support israel and if you are

against genocide, you need to support protesters. >> mr. jacoby, you can answer that. part of the acceleration says how administration people reacted initially and how that kept accelerating the process. can you elaborate on that as well. >> of course. to your question, i think these university presidents are in an impossible position. they are answering to so many different constituencies. here comes this very complex problem. maybe the most complicated problem in history, in some ways with this conflict in the middle east coming onto their campuses. with all this passion and trauma attached to it. they have to navigate that on top of constituencies on and

off campus. this is sort of like quicksand. an administrator would make one move and then sink further there. this was very difficult to navigate for them. in response to the caller's question. not all of the protesters would agree that this is a black-and- white moral question about the war in gaza. and what we are seeing every day in terms of the assault there. that is motivating a lot of the protest movement. i think what struck me about this, you have to ask, what are the demands of this movement? a lot of the protesters are demanding an end from these university campuses, in and to

the divestment from israel. cutting ties and severing ties with israel. questioning u.s. support for israel as a state. that is where things get trickier. what are the larger more pragmatic solutions. i don't think anyone is sitting back and happy to see what is happening in gaza right now. it is a question of what are the demands and how realistic are they? >> let's hear from nick in florida. good morning. nick, hello? >> hello, good morning. i am opposed to israel occupying gaza the way that they have.

any chance they have to protest, they get mowed down and shot down. people that are in our country in america have family over there. in other parts of the world. complaining about family members dying. new bargain, you plead and the issue is that israel has bought our country. every member in congress has to answer to israel in america. >> mr. jacoby, if i understand it correctly, you started this project on the tail end of a project looking into benjamin

netanyahu. can you relate to that? >> frontline has been reporting on benjamin netanyahu for many years. i picked on that report and for many years. we released a film last year about the war in gaza. and it was really a look back and understanding how netanyahu rose to power and where his views were coming from. in some ways coming into his own as an opponent to the peace process and bill clinton's process to bring people to the table. and then on the other side you have hamas going into the floor at that point with suicide bombings and terror attacks trying to spoil the peace process on their side.

that trace this whole thing through. in the course of reporting that, we spoke to dennis ross who is a chief envoy in one of the negotiators. and he was there trying to get these two sides together. he said something that stuck with me and i have been thinking about as we have been making this film. he basically said that getting two sworn enemies to shake hands, what happened was that they turned what was an existential crisis into a political problem. his point was that existential crisis have no solution. political problems have solutions. when i was talking to dennis ross a number of months ago before we started on reporting on the campus crisis.

he said that he looks at the protest on what is going on i'm looking at israel's actions and everything that has happened and he worried that we had gone back to a pre-oslo world. that we are all the sudden hearing protesters about we want 48. let's go back to what that region looked like before israel was created in 1948. whenever you make of israel's actions, that is saying that we are back to the existential crisis where people are questioning does israel have a right to exist? going back to the original creation of the state of israel. i don't want to speak for him but what he was essentially saying is that it's a dangerous place to be back in an

existential crisis. if you make this a political problem you can solve it if it is a two state solution, whatever it may be. he was worried that the generation that is protesting on both sides, you can talk about netanyahu's government and the party that he represents is for a greater israel from the river to the sea. here we are, back to the existential crisis. and that is unfortunate. that wipes out some idea that we can solve this problem and there might be a solution. >> let's hear from david from arizona on the oppose line. >> good morning. i have sympathy for the innocent noncombatants in gaza. and they are experiencing all

of this trouble in the war. as far as the protests are concerned in the united states, right after october the seventh the people in gaza were celebrating in the street over what happened. that is just plain wrong. i understand free speech and such. they need to have the facts straight. i oppose the protest against what israel has been doing to try and squash hamas and rescue hostages, there will be casualties. the celebration really bothered me. celebrating a massacre. that is just wrong. the protest in israel against the current government are valid. the government is not listening to the people of israel. the ruling party needs to

listen to their own people. the people in gaza need to stop celebrating death and destruction by the hands of terrorists. >> david in arizona. >> i think that we should caution against painting anything with a broad brush. some celebrated the attack. i think a lot of these protests are people feeling as though israel's attack on gaza has been unconscionable. this is so complicated and loaded on all sides of it. i would again caution. of course, there is ignorance on all sides. there is extremism on all sides of this. i think we will look back on

these protests, in some ways as righteous and in some ways as problematic. that is just the reality of things. you cannot label it all as pro- hamas. certainly not. a lot of these student statements were construed to be celebratory. was that accurate, in some cases yes and some no. >> you talked a little bit about college presidents. also appearing before congress was the university president. still surviving in a sense despite the tough criticism. what did he do differently than others dating? >> having seen that previous testimony with the residents of harvard and m.i.t. and did not want to repeat that type of hearing. she was invited to that first

hearing but she was out of the country at the time. they called her in later. her approach was very different. she was asked that same question about if calling for the genocide of jews was a violation of the code of conduct. she said absolutely. so she had clearly learned from that first hearing. it was controversial. she looked to be under pressure from other constituents on her campus to crack down and some faculty members had told us in the film that she threw the school under the bus so to speak and she did not stand up to the line of questioning and did not question if there is

truly an anti-semitism crisis at her campus. questioning some of the assumptions being made by the committee members and she was quick to say that these are not my words, these are the words of the folks that we spoke to at columbia university that thought that she was quick to capitulate to the pressures as opposed to not standing up to them. not standing up, in that testimony. saying that they are coming down hard on protesters. they are not tolerating certain types of speech. looking into various professors and taking them off of post if they said something that is controversial. professors and students at columbia felt betrayed by her in that hearing. the interesting thing about that hearing is that a number of those people on the committee still called for her resignation even though her answers were different than the

other presidents had given in december. >> mike is next in virginia. hello. >> hello, good morning. that is not exactly what they are doing. they are trying to stop the genocide. they want peace. they are not pro-hamas. let's not forget. netanyahu worked with hamas to divide and conquer and he allowed funneling of money to hamas. it stopped all of the bombings and suicide bombings inside of israel. they were a piece for a long time. they are frustrated that the two state solution is expanding all the time. occupation had been going on for 80 years. many israeli leaders want to

have them removed from palestine. that is what is happening over there. the media here, i can remember in ukraine, one reporter gets injured, they only cover it for half an hour. how many reporters were killed in gaza? they hardly had any coverage. i used to watch msnbc 24/7. i thought that they were for democracy and against violence. covering this stuff with what is going on. >> we got your point. thank you. >> as a point of professional promotion here. watch more frontline. the film that we made includes what he has discussed about his

approach to hamas over the years. it gives information about that. frontline has reported on what is happening in the west bank since october 7th. we are a very reliable source of information about this conflict. i would say, of course, a lot of the protest movement is about calling for cease-fire. and there are obviously two parties here in terms of hamas having israeli hostages. there have been a myriad of efforts to try and come to an agreement to figure out how to solve this. there is a lot of reporting yet to be done on that. i understand the caller. a lot of these protesters are looking at this situation and

saying that a cease-fire needs to happen. that is a fair characterization of a lot of the protesters. >> mr. good chobe what is your opinion once college resumes? >> i think of course, it depends on what happens in the region. if there is a cease-fire or if there is some kind of resolution for what happens here. not that it solves any long- term problems or short-term problems. with the humanitarian crisis in gaza. yeah. i think that will dictate events. these students are extremely motivated and the movement beyond this campus has motivated them to keep this on the radar. i think that this will become an election issue. certainly on

the left. i would imagine that some groups are really going to push forward with this protest movement in order to try and sway the election. the website is pbs.org/frontline. mr. jacoby, thank you for your time. >> thank you for having me. brad smith testifies on recentcyr security failures before the house homeland security committee. an incident last year when chinese hackers breached email accounts as several federal agencies including the commerce and state departments. live coverage starts at 1:15 p.m. eastern. and you can watch online at c- span.org . c-span has been providing

unfiltered congressional coverage for five years. here's a highlight of a key moment. >> the distinguished gentleman from california. >> my colleague is yielding. today my firstborn is to be married at 5:00. and again i find myself standing in the chamber hoping that this is not one more time when i miss one more event of young children that i love and love me. to get married in 1990 as an act of love, faith, inactive idealism. the veto is an act of cynicism. cut off this debate, we know how we are going to vote, let's override this veto and let me love my son. >> c-span, powered by