we're very delighted to have

with us this evening. talmage boston, who's here from the great state of, texas, to talk about his new book, how the best did it leadership lessons from from our top presidents. talmage is a very accomplished commercial litigator who's handled a wide variety of complex cases over his four and a half decades as a lawyer. he's also a writer of op ed pieces and book, and over the

past 20 years, books. his first to works were on a favorite interest of his baseball. his third was about the law, and the fourth, i looked back at american through interviews with experts on the presidency in and how the best did it talmage focuses again on past presidents and engages in what refers to as applied meaning. he examines the lives of eight of america's greatest presidents and distills certain leadership traits that could help the rest us today the eight are washington, jefferson lincoln, the two roosevelts, eisenhower and reagan. these aren't just talmage. his idea of the best president, you know, his is surveyed by c-span in recent years have come

up with almost the the same list with the exception of including truman in the top eight bumping reagan down to to ninth. but talmage tweaked his list just a bit in the interest, think he would say of political balance anyway his top eight presidents of course had different strengths and weaknesses and lived in very different. but the premise of talmage is instructive book is is that the experience of each of these leaders can provide lessons that remain quite relevant and useful whether it's in washington case how to move up a career ladder or in jefferson's, how to build consensus, or in lincoln's case, how to take the high road when dealing with adversaries, or in kennedy's case, how to stay calm in a crisis.

this is talmage presents it sort a history. you can use and after reading the book, likely be left wondering even why it seems they don't make leaders like they used to in conversation with talmage will be evan thomas, who himself has written biographies of a couple of presidents, one pretty great eisenhower, one not so great. nixon, along with nine other books by evan. that's in addition to distinguished career as a journalist, which included a decade with time magazine, followed by more than 20 years reporting and editing for for newsweek magazine. he also has taught writing and journalism, harvard and princeton. and these days, as you may have noticed, he keeps showing up here to moderating events for us for which we are grateful. so please join in welcoming

talmage boston and evan thomas evan thomas. thank you. brad is a politics and prose the greatest bookstore there is? yes. a dream come true. it's been on my bucket list to come to this store. well, here we are. so you're a big lawyer. why? you become an historian. what happened? i grew up in a history family and from the time i was six and seven years old, which happened to coincide with the centennial of the civil war. there were a lot of documentaries on television, children's books about the civil war. abraham lincoln, who became a hero early on and is still my number one hero. and through the years, i kept reading, as brad mentioned. my first two books were about baseball history. and then after finish the second one, i realized i'd written about everything in baseball that truly interested me. i was ready to move on, so the

next book was on legal talking about abraham lincoln, the lawyer atticus, who was really harper lee's father, james baker, leon jaworski. people like that. but increasingly it's been more and more the focus has been on presidential. and that again started i was like almost seven years old. i grew up in houston and i collected baseball cards like all six and seven year olds, memorized everything that was on the cards, have incredible memories when you're young, like, and my mother got very concerned. she thought she had a smart boy on her hands. but the only thing in his brain were baseball statistics. so before my seventh birthday, she went to a store like this and somehow located a collection of presidential trading cards that on the front had a great picture on the back when they were born when they died, when their president. what were the high points you gave those of me from seventh birthday and memorized them

instantly and could recite all the presidents order in the first grade? and everybody thought i was smart kid in the world. and so i maintain that interest in presidential history all these years. but i just continue as we as we go through every four years, these presidential elections, a yearning, as brad mentioned, why don't we have great people running for like we used to? and what we learn from these great presidents might have application to to the candidates today. so it's a fascination that to me just gets stronger every year and. i do want to mention one thing in our audience is my friend david stewart, to whom i dedicated the book. david wrote a fabulous biography of george washington and that came out about three years ago and. in it, he explained how washington did it, and i was so intrigued by the way, he presented i said, i think we need to do this on all the presidents. so david, a great lawyer and then a great historian and above a great friend. so, david, i'm honored to have

you here today. so this is a i second that this is in ways a self-help book. i mean, it very much is a self-help book. and for for anybody who wants to be president or a leader or anything but before get into the individuals and we will i did do the president's from each other. do they study each other? oh, big time. almost every president. who has any sense? and there are presidents who don't have any sense as we all know. but every president has a sense. lincoln at the top of the mountain and has read all the lincoln biographies and is very aware of every aspect of his life story. i think also particularly in the case of kennedy and reagan, they were both strongly influenced by franklin roosevelt and his eloquence. and of course, franklin roosevelt was inspired by his cousin, theodore roosevelt lincoln's hero is thomas jefferson. every pitch he made on slavery was tied. the declaration of independence and not really to the

constitution. so, yeah, presidents, at least most of them until the recent read history closely and wanted to emulate the great presidents. i think we all wish they still did that today. okay. washington one thing that struck me reading your book was i have sort of two images of of washington. one is an incredibly good looking sort of studly guy in a uniform on a big white horse who's the man and yet incredibly humble i mean, just sort of eerily humble. can you reconcile this and talk to us about why that was? well, one of the great traits that george washington had was that he was self-aware. he knew his strengths were he knew his weaknesses were he knew that he was not a great public in large part because he had trouble talking. he had a grasp the breathy voice that from a childhood respiratory illness. and famously he very few teeth.

in fact, by the time he was president, i think he only had one tooth in his head. so he had these unwieldy dentures in his mouth, made it very to speak. so at no, was he a great public speaker? but he had everything else and the main thing in that regard was he had command presence. he was the tallest guy in the room. he was six foot three. he had ramrod straight posture. he dressed immaculate as lee. he had steely eye contact. gilbert stuart, the portrait artist, said he had the eyes the most ferocious warrior in the jungle. and so he was a great listener he liked people. he liked to socialize. he understood the importance of building relationships, which is essential, being an effective politician. so he had all these talents, but all he knew where he wasn't particularly strong. so, for example, when it's time, when we desperately need a new constitution and he knew he hadn't studied the history of

government and could create out of whole cloth brand new government which needed to be done. and so he deferred to james madison had done all that research and all that studying, all that thought, let him create virginia plan, which became the bones the of the new constitution when it came time to figure out the countries economic problems during his his first term, he knew that wasn't his forte. but here was alexander hamilton, who was great at that stuff, so he knew how to delegate, but he was always in charge. he always was the final decision maker. and particularly during his presidency, there be controversial where there were strong differences of opinion. he'd have both sides submit written so that he could review them carefully and think through, you know, the pros and the cons and and ultimately consistently, he made very good decisions. he worked a dog at self-restraint. i mean, he just was that was like the biggest value of his was to master himself.

we don't see much of that today. but how much how important was that his well, as a young he did have a ferocious temper as did eisenhower as have others. but watching tense and eisenhower both very notable and yet they through self discipline iron steel will manage to for the most part get it under control be periodic outbursts. they became less and less frequent and so that was just a decision that this isn't the way great leaders behave by losing control of themselves in bursts of and both washington and eisenhower that jefferson's a very different guy i guess he's a badass they share that they're both bad speakers which i think when you think about our two great presidents neither was a great speaker, but jefferson i would i, i got the sense from your book it was government by dinner party talk about that well this is one of the most

interesting facts in my research. thomas jefferson was president, as says, for eight years. during those eight years, he gave two speeches. his two inaugural addresses, because he knew he wasn't a good speaker. his first inaugural address, though, was very important in that his predecessor obviously was john john adams during his presidency when the federalists controlled congress enacted the sedition act, which made it a crime punishable by incarceration for anyone criticize john adams or federalist policy. fortunately, that act expired by its own terms at the end of adams, but jefferson became president in a world where people had been thrown in jail for having conflicting opinions, he knew that this country wasn't going to last long. if we were operating on that basis. and so in his first inaugural address, among his opening words were, look, folks, we are all we are all republicans we are all americans, and we better start acting that way or this isn't

going to last. but to your knowing, he wasn't a great, but he was a dazzling in small groups and he knew it. and so his presidency, two and three times a week, every he would have dinner parties where he would have federalists would have republicans, and they be arguing about the hottest political issues the day they'd be building relationships, they'd be talking about literature, history, music, philosophy, and of course, eating wonderful food, drinking strong wine. there were wonderful such that by the end of the evening, if nothing, they actually started liking each other. and so there's two adages about politics. i mentioned politics is relationship. if you don't if you don't have good relationships, you're not going to be a successful politician. we see that today. the second is that if you like somebody, you're going to give them the benefit of the doubt. and if you don't.

you won't. and so he made this a priority to just keep building week by week, month number, year by year, strong interpersonal and it made people want to cooperate with him and i think that this is a special talent that unfortunately is no longer in play today because as we all know, you all live here in washington d.c. you know, people particularly in congress who work in the federal government might three and a half days a week and that other and a half days a week. they're home fundraising. so their wives aren't here. their kids aren't here. they're not running each other. and pta ballgames or anything else. you don't have the same level of relationships that you did 40 years ago and all the way back to thomas jefferson's day. okay, let's take another loss quality. i'm not sure i'm going to pronounce word right. magnanimity. and lincoln, this just comes through. and again with lincoln, talk to us about that. well, magnanimity means you're taking the high road that no matter how insulting people may be you can overlook them. you don't get bogged down in

conflicts. you're forgiving and. even if anybody ever needed to be during his presidency, it abraham lincoln. first of all, famously, he had his team of rivals, cabinet, three of the members of his cabinet had run against him and some of them at least going in, thought they were a whole lot smarter than lincoln. they were certainly a lot more than lincoln. and yet it didn't take long, with the exception of salmon chase, to. no, he really is the smartest guy the room even though he had less than one year of formal schooling. his wisdom the projected instantly his storytelling ability which was so endearing. but anyway he had a come to grips with what could have been a very tense experience his cabinet then of course you know about the union generals particularly at the beginning the war and especially george mcclellan who'd come out of west point, top of his class, thought he was world's greatest military leader. we learned it didn't take long.

he really didn't like to fight. he thought he was a great general, but he didn't like to fight. and so the union kept losing battle. battle, but he was very insulting to lincoln, very rude to lincoln. and yet lincoln didn't take any of it personally. and in time, of course, he fired mcclellan ultimately found the general who could win the war. and ulysses grant. but but he didn't get bogged in all the the insults that his way from the generals also were union soldiers who like so many soldiers in wartime, decided, i don't like this war anymore. i want to go home. they deserted. lincoln stayed above the fray and was incredibly generous in his pardons as the war was coming to a he had a magnum almost attitude toward the confederacy he wanted them to come back to the union. he wanted people to lock again as they had been long before. the slavery crisis arose and so had a very magnanimous attitude toward the confederacy. and last but not least, he had a very magnanimous toward his wife, mary. mary was, just a shrew.

she was smart. she ambitious, and thus fueled lincoln's rise. so they shared that in common. he recognized at the very outset, in fact, when they start that inch here's this tall, ugly guy and she's talking about, i think this guy can be president, is everybody. what? but but sure enough, she knew what she was talking about. but but she was always creating personal problems. she had more enemies and friends. none of the women liked her. and lincoln refused to get bogged down on all of her inter interpersonal discord that could have easily bogged down somebody else. but he just stayed above it. he wasn't going to get into the ditch with her or with mcclellan or with the cabinet or with the soldiers or with the confederates and anybody can consistently stay the fray and take the high road. you're your particularly in a situation where over seven or

50,000 people have died in the civil war. he's lost his beloved 11 year old son. the grief that came him, nonetheless, he stayed it all no matter what happened. it was true of washington, too. did they do it? they wanted to be great. lincoln famously, at age 23, said, i want to be a esteemed by my fellow man, and washington could have said the same thing. they knew they wanted to be special in this country at critical times, they felt a calling. they they didn't want to just be middle of the pack. they they wanted to be leaders they had different ways of getting into leadership positions and staying there. but, of course, they both had unbelievable integrity. therefore, they both had unbelievable credibility, which unfortunately don't have in the modern era. you know, george washington cannot tell a lie chopped down the cherry, which was a fable,

but it was true. he couldn't tell a lie. and abe lincoln, honest. abe, he was honest he couldn't tell a lie. and so when you up credibility year after year in every conversation, every relationship it pays dividends for some reason we've lost that today how important faith to those two washington you don't read much about washington faith but obviously he was one nation under god in the and in the constitution and and so forth. but lincoln's journey is one that's the most fascinating, because as a young man, he an infidel, he'd read thomas paine and and acted like he didn't believe god at all. but as he grew and battled through some depression that helped his faith journey, then he lost his his child, eddie in springfield and the minister james smith in springfield nurtured him and was an intellectual so he could appeal

to lincoln's intellect. and then, of course, win the war. he had a great minister there in washington dc, phineas gurney, who was bringing him along throughout. so said anybody who would come into lincoln solitude during the war invariably would find him reading his bible or on his knees. and by the time you get to the second inaugural address, ronald white, our friend who's on the back of the desk jacket along with evan, said he calls his second inaugural address. lincoln's sermon on the mount. in it, he quoted different scriptures no other president had ever quoted a scripture in an inaugural address except john quincy adams. it quoted one lincoln quoted four scriptures. he appealed to prayer about ten times, so he was consumed with his faith by the end of the war and throughout this horrible civil war going on, all these people dying amputations, everything. he's trying to figure out what is our loving god thinking how can allow this to happen and. he finally figured out the answer, and that was he said in

his second inaugural address that because we have tolerated slavery for as long as we have, this is god's punishment. we don't know when it will end, but we deserve it. we've got to accept it. and sooner or later we are going to be finished with we are going to put slavery behind us. but but what we've done for long as we've done deserves some serious. and that's what the civil war is. that is the essence of his second inaugural address, somebody who had a harder time being humble was teddy roosevelt, one of the good things that you do in your book, actually, is that with each president to stop and say, okay, what are their flaws? so talk to us a bit about tears. flaws? well, t.r. has flaws to me are the most fascinating and i'm sure this loving audience you've read edmund morris is trilogy on theodore roosevelt and the third was called colonel roosevelt which is what he liked to be called after he was president during the last decade of his life, he became the youngest

president when mckinley was assassinated. he then filled that term, which is over three and a half years, then he said he would only do one more term because it was close enough to two years and he thought washington had set this precedent and. then he left the white house when he was 50 years old. he's 50 and he's finished. so then he just starts to twist off and it doesn't take long for him. realize i'm a horrible stake. i really want to be president. he starts the third party movement, the bull moose. he takes these ridiculous trips down the amazon and unbelievable theodore roosevelt, the kind of guy, if you invited him to a two hour dinner party, he would talk for an hour and 58 minutes. the only time you could ever get a word in was when he had in his mouth. he was a he was brilliant he's probably our highest iq person, wrote more books. any president read more books, any president. he remembered everything wrote. he was an incredible mediator the coal strike of 1902.

the rousseau's japanese war for which he won the peace prize, as well as the moroccan conflict that he mediated successfully in the hague convention conflict that immediate successfully so this incredible strength of personal and energy and brilliance. but after he was it just kind of spiraled out of control in the last decade of his life really a sad time see nothing good really happening here. he was 58 years old and enter world war one. and he's begging woodrow wilson to be a soldier in world war one at age 58. i mean, he'd lost his mind, but he pushed of his sons in the war, one of whom got killed, and the other one got badly wounded. of course, he grieved over that. what have i done? why did i do this? and then at age 64, you go to sagamore hill is home. my wife is here and he notices on the medal and sagamore hill

over the mantle. the axle of the airplane that his son quenton was flying when he was shot down. it's like a when i when i took tour of the home, the fact that stood for me was the person who gave me the tour said. every morning he would drink a gallon of coffee and half was a dozen and he would eat a dozen eggs. and he died at 58. and no, he died at 66. but but but he did obviously get fatter and fatter and fatter. but i mean, you know, you think of how juiced up you'd be if you drank a gallon coffee every morning fdr talked to us a little bit about polio the impact of polio on him. well i believe that the way fdr ultimately overcame may be the greatest story in american of any one person overcoming adversity and going on to do amazing things. keep in mind he polio when he was 39 years old.

most people thought you just got it when i was a kid. but but he he not as a child. he'd been an only he hadn't been around many children. he didn't get all the illnesses that kids get, that develop antibodies. and so, lo and behold, he gets polio. he's 39 years old. he'd been very physically active for and played golf, loved to dance, loved to work the crowd, politics, all of a sudden that was gone and it took seven years for him to work way back. and it was very painful. he tried and tried and tried and thought one day he'd be able to walk by himself. that happened basically from the waist. he was useless. his legs useless, but. but he maintained optimism. he he maintained that sparkle. he maintained that that eloquence, that joy for living that is a sign of most great leaders. pessimists rarely are very successful at doing anything but to see how he came back over

those seven years to where he could stand it. he would stand at the podium, hold it tight for fear that if he didn't. he might tip over and fall but he had that face. he wasn't using gestures with his speech, but he had that face. he had that sparkle. he had those eyes. he had that voice and. the other thing about him was he was gifted as order, not only with the oratory. the first inaugural address, we have nothing fear but fear itself. and right after pearl harbor yesterday, december seven, 1941, a day will live in infamy. so he had that. but he also had that conversational tone in his fireside chats that would put people at ease. he'd been president of united states eight days and the day before he shut all the banks because there a national panic on the banks, he shut all and he goes on the radio next day eight days and often says here's what's going on. here's what we've done about it. here's what's going to happen in the days ahead.

no problem. we got under control. no need to panic. all going to be fine. they open the banks the next day. the panic gone. so an amazing capacity to speak calmly, to speak with, but particularly and we saw this in his last. six or seven years as hitler was taking over europe and know becoming more and more aggressive and. most americans want an isolationist they didn't want to fight another war halfway around the world. done that 20 years before foreign world one. they didn't want to do that again. but franklin roosevelt realized no hitler serious. you let hitler have his way. he's to take over europe, asia, africa, australia, the high seas. of course, churchill's blowing in here. this is where it's headed. if you don't enter, who knows where hitler's going to go. and when he takes over everything else, he'll surely come after the united states. so here was where roosevelt

calmly but surely talked people out of their isolationism so on one radio chat he said this is not a conversation about it's a conversation about national. let's talk about the need national security another one he's saying we see what hitler's doing. we see it. we know the power warfare in this war. we see he's headed toward getting a foothold that would allow him attack the united states. if we don't him now and people you know he's right. you know he's right. this is this is a a type of that we cannot ignore. we be isolationist and this kind of problem. and so by the time pearl harbor hit, of course, everybody was ready to jump on board and let's go get them. and he started up war machine and thereby wiped out depression finally. and so for him to anyone for presidential elections and in all he had over 80% of the

electoral vote. i mean, every election was a landslide. so he appealed the middle way. he knew not to focus on the extreme themes and of course, to move public sentiment. you got to know public sentiment. he wasn't of press conferences. he had them all the time. he wasn't afraid to talk to the leaders of both political parties. he took train trips. he took car trips. you want to know what was going on in america and his wife was on the road all the time and she'd come home and him everything she knew. so he had this gift of knowing what the public sentiment. and you got to know that before you can move it again. that's tied to a he said that that's the key if you don't know what the people are thinking can you begin to think you're going to know to move them in the direction you want him to go? so i had the great crusading general eisenhower supreme allied commander. this sounds kind of boring, but one thing that just struck me is he how to run a meeting. he only knew how to run a meeting. he knew how to run an

organization and he had done that as a supreme commander and of course, orchestrated the d-day invasion. but the eisenhower white house and getting back to your opening remarks, my book, the intended, is anybody who is or aspires be a leader in any type of organization, whether it's a company, law firm, a hospital, a nonprofit, whatever it may be. and anybody who wants to see how to set up an organization that actually is going to work and fire on all cylinders, study the eisenhower presidency because he revitalized the cabinet they had weekly meetings. attendance was mandatory. one of the people said i would just hit throughout subjects one rule was you couldn't talk any specific thing in your department he wanted all these smart people be talking about the big issues and he did it week after week and eisenhower knew how to inspire debate without stifling debate. but he was the ultimate decision maker.

and like lincoln it didn't take long for people to realize he the smartest guy in the room and to me the most fascinating thing that eisenhower was when he left the presidency. in january 1961, they did it was presidential tracking polls. and out of the 34 presidents, the history prints of that era ranked eisenhower 22. today, he's ranked number five. now, you say, how could that be? well, the answer was of course, kennedy succeeded and kennedy bashed him and said, oh, just plays golf and he's too old. and let's other people run the government and and, you know, sputnik and the missile gap and all this stuff and, you know, just just dumped on eisenhower and the historians thought that he was just an man who was just kind of going through the motions well, when his papers were finally released out to the scholars and they studied all these activities, the cabinet, the national council, his, his congressional liaison office and they said they said no, he was a

decision maker. he really was the person responsible. eight years of peace and prosperity. and it took people while they said, you know, eight years of peace and prosperity. that's pretty good. there aren't many presidents ever done that. in fact, there are no presidents who've really ever done that, as well as eisenhower. and going back to brad's introduction note, truman is not in my top eight, even though the. rank him sixth. i think he's overrated i think he he obviously got his start in korea had no way to end it eisenhower ended it quickly mccarthyism over the country during truman's final years he had no way to known how to deal with it. eisenhower found it a great plan behind the scenes moving discreetly to bring an end to mccarthyism. and per evan's book you know, truman gets all this credit for dropping the bomb and winning the war. my goodness with the manhattan project and with the prospect of our soldiers invading japan and losing millions of lives he had

no choice. he had to drop the bomb. so anyway i think he's underrated think reagan i mean i think he's over rated i think reagan is is underrated. i think in 2024 more people are interested in reading reagan than they are in truman. but i also think in the modern era, again, to build a little consensus here, i've got two democrats, fdr and and i've got two republicans, eisenhower and reagan. and so you can see that presidents from both parties were great at their in their leadership traits are knowing and and passing to the next generation. so some say the wobbly as choice here actually is there are only 4000 thousand days and had a rocky personal life, to put it mildly. tell to talk about war. but but but you make the point that he learned on the job. walk us through a couple of to start with. let's do his his civil rights speech which was it wasn't even finished when he began in 69. no response in 63, right after

birmingham. but he really he came into office he'd been a playboy in congress in the in the senate. he'd never pursued a serious bill. he wasn't respected at all. he was viewed as a playboy, handsome, charismatic, wealthy pulitzer prize winning historian. profiles in courage which, of course, was written by ted sorenson. and he got it because his father manipulated the pulitzer panel that that as it may he didn't know anything about economic policy or fiscal policy but he knew, my god, i'm president now better learn this stuff. so he surrounded himself. the top economic thinkers study hard, learned it and could come up with a good policy in a short period of time. same with foreign policy. he'd been i mean, he fought in world war famous 109. but he learned early on with the bay of pigs he didn't know much about foreign policy at all. originally he deferred to the military brass and that was

disastrous in the bay of pigs. and one lesson learned was, no, you can't just accept all these things, guy. all these things he's got to say is true. you've got to be more discerning. and of course, he proved that with his handling of the cuban missile crisis, which many people regard as the most moment in the last 200 or 300 years, we almost had world war three and nuclear holocausts. and so forth. but the civil rights he had been elected in 1960, he famously made a call to coretta king when martin luther king was in the penitentiary actually to get him out, and he gotten support from it probably was margin of victory. but then for years he did nothing because he was trying to he already looking to 64 and if he came on too strong on civil rights, he knew he'd lose the south. and so he did nothing. in the meantime, course in the south we got birmingham we've got montgomery, we've got freedom riders getting killed.

got all these things going on. but but it came to a head in birmingham or bull connor turns the fire on black children and vicious attack dogs on black adults and all on national television. and kennedy sees and he's so horrified that. he goes on tv and with a speech was half written that day by ted sorensen the rest was spontaneous. said this no longer a political issue. this is a moral issue. and it's up to all of us congress, state and local governments, every single person we've got to hit this head on. this is not who we are. this is not who we're going to be. and shortly thereafter, he submits a very strong civil rights bill, which a few months later, he gets killed before he can push it through. thank goodness lyndon johnson, the legislative genius pushes it through. by the summer of 1964. but that's part of his greatness in mind. here's a guy who was president less than three years and yet

he's ranked number eight. but besides his his being calm in a crisis, his his growth spurt, his eloquence was such a game changer. you think about it, his inaugural ask not what country can do for you. ask you can do for your country sets up the peace corps and and thousands tens of thousands of people say, i want to do that, of course, is civil rights speech changes the way of thinking the space race that speech at rice stadium. we want to go to the moon by the end of this decade not because it's easy but because it's hard. it's going to show how smart we are and how capable are and how strong we are. and we're going to win and we're going do it within the decade. and sure enough, provides the money and we end up with a man on the moon before the end of the decade. so when words turn into deeds, that's something.

and of course the speech that every time i see it on youtube, i get teared up is when he goes to berlin divided berlin. it's the focal point of the world and all these people are losing hope and they're scared and they don't know what kind of support they have around the world. and kennedy gets up there in front of 450,000 people and tells them, you are the most important statement of courage there is in the world. and for anybody who doubts that let them come to berlin and he close, saying it been ein berliner, i'm a berliner and i'm in. the crowd goes while world goes wild. berlin feels no, they're behind. we don't need to be fearful. he's serious. they're behind us. and so for anybody who can who can have that kind of impact with his with his speech and his inspiration, that's what causes him to be right. it is highly as he did, even though he didn't last one term, apparently. what said in german was, would you like to buy a loaf of bread? but he brought it up anyways.

okay, look, we need little optimism here before we go. we're going to open up one. but just one quick question about about reagan. so where did this optimism come from and how did he convey the optimism came from mother who was very devout christian woman. his father was a horrible alcoholic who bounced from job to job. and they bounced from house to house and was really a horrible upbringing. but his mother kept instilling these optimistic sayings in, his brain, and he would repeat them. and no matter how bad life was, he always thought it was okay and that was going to be better. and he had that perspective. his entire life, his movie career after world war two went down. he didn't lose his optimism. he goes into tv. he's on the verge of losing his star power on tv and he gives

the 1964 speech on behalf of barry goldwater on national tv and like dwight eisenhower said, oh my god, we picked the guy. this is a guy who can get behind us. barry goldwater never had that kind of power persuasion, inspiration, optimism. and of course reagan was like almost all the presidents, if not all of them, incredibly ambitious. i mean, in no at all. he's already thinking about becoming president now step one, he's got to do something. so he immediately for governor and gets elected and is a very popular governor of california makes the cover of time magazine of people saying now this guy's for real. you may think he kind of a grade b movie actor in a death valley days, guy on tv, but he's for real as, a politician. he blows people away with. this speech. and so it was it was it came from his mother but there wasn't one day of his life that he ever seemed to be down, with the possible exception, when jane wyman left him and and that

depressed him for a little. but then along came nancy and she she, of course, just fed him every single day about it. you're greatest guy in the whole world. and and he kind of liked that. so the moral of the story is have a good wife. okay, let's take some questions. thank you. looking forward to reading the book, it seems like a lot of these presidents had time to reflect, time to contemplate and think about what they to say, think about policy. but now we're in 24 hour news cycle. we're in the age of social media where you're constantly responding to your opposition, responding to the news of the day. how do you think that has impacted the quality of president's ability to serve and to and to lead well with each generation, you've got come up with a new strategy for dealing with and you accurately described today and the impact of social media. but in george washington is john adams day thomas jefferson's day, there are hundreds and hundreds of competing newspapers

back in the days when people read and they were and they were libelous and, they were constant. and yet they stayed above the fray. and, of course, bore his share of criticism of reagan. certainly people were scared to death, you know, my gosh, if reagan becomes we're going to have world war three, he's going to be dropping bombs all over the place. so there's always been a high measure of criticism. you're right. never quite been 24 seven 365 the way it is. but the story of these presidents and of great leaders in history is they always find a way to evaluate the what is and find a way to work with it and ultimately triumph over it. so i think that just because we are living in an era where communication and media is different than ever before, that doesn't mean it's insoluble. it just means you've got to have character. i mean, for example look at who

we have now and, who we've had the last few years. we talking about men who are 1,000% honest, who have a thousand percent credibility. no and so every time either of them biden, trump, give a speech, they have to track, you know, what percentage was inaccurate, what percentage of this fault for both of them. you didn't have to do that with abraham lincoln. you didn't have to do that with eisenhower. you have to do that with washington. you didn't have to do that with theodore roosevelt or franklin. so the of men described in this book is very different from the caliber of men that we have today in last two presidents and we're stuck in 2024. i'm not looking forward and i suspect no one's really looking forward to what going to have the next four years. and all we can do is hope that four years from now we still have a country and a new generation of leaders can come forward who will be more like these guys, the people who we've

had. for the last eight years. thank you. that was fascinating and makes a lot of sense, except ronald reagan, who took the country in precise possibly the wrong direction, backward but besides that, you're in the minority. but that's okay. i understand politics and pro you do realize that when he for his second term he got 49 out of 50 states. i know that's part of the tragedy it but i think you really need to read my reagan chapter rethink things i don't think i could get through it. okay it's always good. have an open mind. i lived through all this. thank you all. we all do. what? no, no, no. but i went all the way back to the new deal. so but the question is, somebody said, well, you know, we just don't make them like that anymore. and the question in my is, are we choosing them the right way?

short answer no. and reason we're not is because the primaries system, which awards candidates who are on the extreme. if you're a republican, you want to win a primary, have to be far the most far right for most places. democrat have to be the most far left. eisenhower and every other president lincoln. no, the way to govern is the middle way and right now we've got 70% of the country in every poll says we don't want biden or trump. and so can either of these guys appeal the independents and the middle way? i have my doubts, but that's why it doesn't work anymore, because the primaries are in or electing people who are on the extremes and not in the middle and people who are in the middle, who are moderates and thoughtful, are called rinos or whatever. democratic moderates. and they're bad people because they're not liberal enough. they're not conservative enough. and that's what that's why

politics today is in the shape it's in. well, that's a thought but i have one thought. thank you all right. okay. i hope that's the last. all right. how the fact that now you have to good on television and that's it that's it that's a special that's how got elected and that's how kennedy got elected and you always have to be good on television for that show has had begun radio and for that you always had to be good newspapers you have to be eloquent you have to be you have to be wise. and no matter what the media is, if you've all those traits, you'll do just fine. go ahead. does your address the influence of government making the any future election, this election, any future elections a mockery you just have like puppets my book really doesn't world government today it stops with reagan and so my book is entirely about the eight presidents and their leadership

and how they can be applied by leaders today. it's not about world politics. yes, opinion. and i changed quite a bit with a book called the hidden hand presidency. yeah that's the whole deal. that's what i was talking about. okay. would you talk a bit more about his treatment of mccarthy? i mean, he he had the idea that if you just let mccarthy hang himself right. you gave him enough rope to hang himself. in fact, he this is one of my favorite lines is oh, my favorite eisenhower would not even say mccarthy's name in public. he wasn't going to get down on his level. he didn't anybody to think he was on his level. he didn't want to. no, it's head to head. me and mccarthy so he orchestrated this behind the scenes plan and was always doing things under undermine mccarthy and ultimately with the army mccarthy hearings, he let do the dirty work and course he did the dirty work. he brought mccarthy down successfully and and that was the end of mccarthy. but truman had tried to go head to head and thought, that's the

way you deal with somebody like. and he had no success at all. maybe maybe another lesson for the future. yeah. all right. you have a question, sir. this is about eisenhower. you really you got to eisenhower experts even wrote a fabulous book, ike's bluff. you haven't read it. three preceding his political. it's what were the traits and characteristics that were recognized by the military that that seemed to be bringing him up quite steadily. well everybody in the military who was superior to eisenhower wanted him to be their assistant because realize he outworked everybody he brilliant he knew how to handle people. and, you know macarthur wanted him. marshall wanted him. everybody wanted him because made everything better. not in any kind of puffed up, arrogant, beat on your chest. i'm a great guy, but through it, through hard work and diligence and wisdom and fundamental

intelligence and fundamental likability. i like ike. people liked ike. he was he was appealing. he he didn't go through life making enemies the way so many politicians do. now, how does that relate to his standing before graduating from west point? well, he was he was an athlete in westport played football and baseball. of course, athletes sometimes act up and and he was something of a rebel and so he graduated top of his class that wasn't a priority. but he obviously learned what he needed to learn because when the time came to go to war, he knew how to be the supreme allied commander. on the day he graduated, he was in new york back steak money to the doormen at the astoria hotels saved money for gambling on poker. he had to come back and, walk a few disciplinary laps. it was a great west point. either they graduated the bottom of the top. he was actually graduating middle, but he was it was not a you know, but grant was in the

middle or the bottom. and, you know, grant was it was the best general for the north in the civil war. all these guys who got fired ahead of them were always at the top of their class. yeah. thank you both for being here. excited to read the book so teddy roosevelt said when from different sections, races or religions start seeing each other as the other rather than as common american, that's when democracy will break. are we there right now and are you generally optimistic, pessimistic about the future of democracy? hard to be optimistic if you see this huge presidential leadership void, which now have and we have a congress that is concerned with gridlock, consumed with people on, the extremes, one one of my heroes is former secretary of state james baker, the man who made washington work. i'm sure you had peter baker and susan glasser here, who was able work across the aisle, make government work. and we don't have people like that much anymore, which is

obviously a shame. so until something i'm not optimistic about our federal government and let's not say i'm not optimistic about the american people because i'm an optimist. i'm a happy person. i'm blessed many ways. but right now i don't feel great about our federal government or our last two presidents. thank you, anybody else. here? we got a man man. which one of these eight guys would have the best chance of getting today? well, because lincoln, my mind stands head and shoulders above of them. if you had to pick a frontrunner in my mind, it would have be lincoln. because he was totally eloquent. he was a very shrewd political. and he was he was principled. he could recognize what the moral issues were compared to

what the political issues were and and and in fact, my book presidents an average of three leadership traits for president a total 24 leadership traits in the book. they're all different no and when i got through i realized i could have put all 24 in a lincoln chapter and can't say that about any of the others. so because he had the biggest toolkit of of all the presidents, that's why i think if anybody could succeed in today's politics out of these eight it would be lincoln. but been a one term congressman. you know he well i mean that shows what a politically shrewd person he was at the 1860 republican convention. he knew he wasn't the frontrunner, but he to be in second place. he knew that there wouldn't be enough to elevate william seward to win. and so when people realized who are going to wasn't going to win, that lincoln there ready to

step up and and as i said before, you didn't have to be around lincoln long to. no, he really is the smartest guy in the room. he's the most appealing guy in room. and and he's the most eloquent guy in the room. so it was strange that he didn't have more of time in washington before he became president. but on the other hand, he had all that time in illinois close to the people, the fabulous lawyer, all kinds of cases. he knew what problem solving was about he knew how to achieve resolution of disputes was all about and so all of the he learned about public speaking he learned writing strong briefs argue over 400 cases to the illinois supreme. so the skills you need to be a great, great speaker, great writer, great thinker, great strategist, a great, emotionally intelligent human being to work with all kinds of people. lincoln had all those traits. so like you tell maturity, like a good lawyer, we should run.

you. okay? well, thank you everybody. appreciate it. oh, well, i like. excuse me. if you didn't have lincoln to choose from then out of the remaining. i think number two would have to be washington. washington as we talked about, was not a great speaker and particularly in this era where, if you're not a good speaker and you're not on television or you're not on radio or you're not on social media and you're you're not out as a as a strong communicator, you're going to be challenged. but in terms of the other collection of important traits. washington's in second place and my friend david souter would say, no, he's in first place. so thank you, talmage and evan of talmage. his books are available at the checkout desk. he'll be up here signing. please form a line to the right of the table and help our staff bygood evening, everyone i'm jay

barth. i'm the director of the clinton presidential library. and on behalf of the clinton school of public service, the clinton foundation and the clinton presidential library, we welcome you to another offering of the clinton presidential center presents series. i want