this question are postponed. pursuant to clause 12-a, the chair declares the house cable.

>> "washington journal" continues. host: i am joined by jacob ware, a research fellow at the council of foreign relations. he will talk about threats facing the u.s. homeland. guest: thank you for having me. host: set the stage for us. what was the threat environment like before the war in the middle east and now. guest: a lot of people were taken off guard. not just in the intelligence communities but those of us analyzing the issue. we have seen small scale violence and israel perpetrated

by jihadist groups. we did not foresee that this group was capable of a coordinated land, sea, and air attack like this. it has been a devastating shock. host: it seemed that islamic terrorism had gone dormant for a while. was that a perception or read -- or a reality? guest: a reality here in the united states. we have seen a rise in far right terrorism. it manifested in places like pittsburgh, el paso, jacksonville. we had not seen those attacks so much here in the u.s.. israel deals with this on a daily basis. i just don't think we foresaw that this group at this moment had the capability where the will to conduct this kind of operation.

it has been a surprise. host: nally threat environment has got -- now the threat environment has gotten more dangerous in the united states. guest: i would say so. we are seeing rising levels of antisemitism and islamophobia. this should not be surprising. this is an american tradition that when issues happen in the world, americans unfortunately find a way to target communities here in the united states. it happened during world war ii, 9/11 11, during covid, and in this crisis that jews and muslims and people perceived to be jews and muslims are facing a rise in hate crimes. host: christopher wray was before the senate homeland security committee earlier.

this is what he said about the threat environment. [video clip] dir. wray: the terrorism threat has been elevated throughout 2023 but the war in the middle east has raised the threat of attack on americans in the u.s. to another level. since the horrific terrorist attacks committed by hamas against innocent people in israel, we have in working to support our partners there and to protect americans at home. we assess the actions of hamas and its allies will serve as an inspiration the likes of which we have not seen since isis launched its so-called caliphate years ago. in the past few weeks, multiple foreign terrorist organizations have called for attacks against americans and the west. al qaeda issued its most specific call to attack the u.s. in the last five years.

isis urged its followers to target the jewish communities in the u.s. and europe. hezbollah has publicly expressed its support for hamas and credited to attack u.s. interests in the middle east. we have seen an increase of attacks on u.s. military bases overseas carried out by militia groups backed by iran. here in the u.s., our most immediate concern is that violent extremists, individuals or small groups, will draw inspiration from the events in the middle east to carry out attacks against americans going about their daily lives. that includes not just homegrown extremists inspired by a foreign terrorist organization, but also domestic violence extremists targeting jewish or muslim communities. host: he said a lot in there. let's unpack it.

he mentioned hamas, hezbollah, and isis. can you give us the similar keys or differences among those groups with how they might impact u.s. security. guest: hezbollah and hamas are iranian proxy groups. hezbollah is a shia and has a political presence in lebanon. these are groups supported and encouraged by iran, as opposed to al qaeda which are terrorist organizations. they don't have a relationship with iran. they typically have a contentious relationship with iran. it is inaccurate to put them in the same bucket and say the same kind of individuals would be inspired by the same call to action. we typically see high levels of jihadist violence here in the u.s. when these groups are

active abroad. for example, what christopher wray's book about was the alum asked a--receiver ray spoke about was the islamic state was rising people to violence when the caliphate was at its height. i think we are seeing similar signs of a heightened threat environment because of excesses abroad. host: when he talked about lone actors being inspired, how does that work and what is the likelihood of that? guest: the likelihood is higher than a coordinated international attack. there has been a lot of debate in certain quarters, this other border, for example, and a terrorism threat through immigration at the southern border. it is a deliberate strategy that jihadist groups have put in place to actually inspire individuals in the west rather than conduct attacks through

foreign plots. it is more difficult to infiltrate stream missed or militants across the border, whether through legal means or illegal means then to inspire a believer in the home and. when he talks about lone actors and extremist, he talks about inspiring attacks, he is talking about instances like orlando, san bernardino, new york city in the last decade where individuals who are here were inspired to act alone as opposed to being smuggled across the border were flown into the country to conduct attacks. it is a far greater threat that someone here would conduct any attack. host: let's talk about the mexico-u.s. border. there was an exchange between ron johnson and director wray on threats from migrants. [video clip]

sen. johnson: what are you doing to invest these people and stop this threat? dir. wray: there are task forces to try to identify -- sen. johnson: how many agents do you have tasked to investigate potential terror threats coming into this country, particularly god always. how many are investigating? dir. wray: i don't know if i can give you an exact number. sen. johnson: is it 100, a couple hundred? dir. wray: we have several hundred agents tackling the threat that come from the border from the national security side, counterterrorism side, and organized crime side. sen. johnson: how does that

compare to the number of agents investigating the january 6 protesters? at the height of that investigation, how many agents were assigned to that? dir. wray: i don't have exact numbers. rep. johnson: -- sen. johnson: ballpark. dir. wray: i am confident the number of agents working on threats that should be billed to the border far exceeds the people working on the january 6 investigation. host: what do you think of that as far as the resources dedicated to people coming across the border? guest: the big point that wray makes is this is only partly a counterterrorism problem. the border is much bigger, organized prime -- organized crime and security threats. i focus on terrorism. a report from the cato institute noted that in their database

they only have nine illegal immigrants who conducted terrorism attacks in the u.s. they killed or injured zero people. that is not a serious threat. when we talk about the southern border antiterrorism -- and the terrorism nexus, border patrol reported 151 migrants that were positive terrorism watch list matches. that is lower than the northern border. just because somebody on the terrorism database, it does not mean they are a suspected terrorist. it could be a false positive, if you remember -- a family member or a relative. many of those are not from the groups that have ms -- not all of them or let into the u.s..

when you take all those individuals, it makes up 0.01% of illegal migrants. the data does not support the argument that terrorism through the southern border is a major issue. that does not mean you should ignore it. last week there was an individual who was apprehended because he was wanted in senegal. by enforcement and the fbi is working hard on this issue -- law enforcement and the fbi is working hard on this issue and i believe is representative of the threat. host: if you would like to call in and ask a question of our guest, you can do so on our lines. democrats, 202-748-8000. republicans, 202-748-8001. independents, 202-748-8002. you wrote a book called "god, guns, and sedition."

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