>> coming up on washington journal combination might cause and comments. author brian kill me tossed about his new book. and chris lehman discusses campaign 2024 and other news of the day. washington journal is next. host: good morning and welcome

to washington journal. the key to democracy is the separation of church and state, but the new house speaker says many americans misunderstand the phrase. he believes that the founders wanted principles of faith to influence, not to create a wall between house and state. who is right? that is our question to you, this morning. you agree with house speaker johnson says that the separation of church and state is misunderstood? we are opening up our regular lines this morning. democrats can call in at (202) 748-8000. republicans, your line is (202) 748-8001. independent can call (202) 748-8002. you can always text us at (202) 748-8003.

and we are always meeting on social media, facebook and on x. once again, the new house speaker spoke out last week and said that many people misunderstand what the founders wanted when they talked about church and state. there is an article that talked a little bit more about what mike johnson said. he pushed back on the belief that there should be a separation of church and state in the u.s., arguing that the founding fathers wanted states to be a big part of government. people misunderstand, johnson, when asked about him praying on the house for. -- flory.

but he was explaining is that he did not want the government to encroach upon the church, not that they did want principles of faith to have an influence on our public life. that is the opposite, the seeker added. i want you to see mike johnson and what he said on cnbc, and his own words. here is what speaker mike johnson said about church and state on cnbc's squawk box. >> you have talked about, quite openly, faith in your life. i think it was the first day that you are sworn in. it appears that you are praying on the floor with another congressman. the question of separation of church and state, we all talk about whether religion should

play a role, whether people should be allowed to pray inside a company. there is a great importance in that. how do you think about the public perception of that? >> faith is a big part of what it means to be an american. they wanted a vibrant expression. a general moral consensus was necessary to maintain the self-governance. we do not have a king in charge or a middleman. we have keep morality amongst us. the separation of church and state is a misnomer. it comes from a phrase that was in a letter and what he was explaining is that they do not want the government to encroach upon the church, not that they did not want principles of faith to have influence on our life.

religion and rally are indispensable's point. they knew that it would be important to maintain our system. that is why i think we need more of that. we need it because it is such an important part of who we are as a nation. host: let's see what the first amendment to the constitution actually said is and see whether you agree. core shall make no law respecting an establishment of on or living the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the people to peaceably assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

some lawmakers agree and some lawmakers disagree. representative jared huffman, a representative from california spoke about speerohnson and religion. here is what he e arall kinds of universal values that we should be working on. you can develop a pretty good list. we are in this culture war that becomes a religiouwafor many. any ti you start trying to impor low religion on others, that is just a red line, and there is no compromise on that. what do you think about the new speaker, the separation of church and state is misunderstood. let's start with jeffrey. jeffrey, good morning.

caller: thank you for taking my call. i think it is a divided expression. it is controlled and they are not being decisive with the law that they set out, due to the fact that it is so divided in america. there should be no compromise despite someone else disapproving of your faith. you are expressing a belief and spirit to humble yourself. politics is wrapped up with a lot of finger-pointing of someone's origin or religious

backgrounds. if they choose to involve themselves in the political dynamics that exist with the members of congress of multiple people in government. it is very much a life changing difference. a lot of you educators, in this format that you bring awareness about it, obviously, we need to have a discussion and we appreciate what you bring. i hope some resolutions can come out of it. host: jeffrey, do you agree with house speaker mike johnson? do think that they should not be allowed to use their religious beliefs as part of their

government jobs? caller: i do not agree with how it came on the announcement of it. i feel your political viewpoint or standpoint, politics lies, you are going off of someone's identity with what the identity shows you, not a christian or -- that has nothing to do with it. you are crosschecking that as maybe an opinion while they voted against that other thing. no, you cannot have it both ways.

your faith is your faith, at the end of the day. the father is going to be the decisive judgment of mankind. undoubtedly, against his faith, love. host: let's go to anaheim, california on the republican line. caller: good morning, sir. i like what the last speaker said. i just want to have peace. i think everybody in this country should relax a little bit, take a deep breath and relax. allow other people to express their opinion, as long as it is peaceful. host: does that mean you agree

with speaker johnson or do you disagree with him? d think people should be allowed to have their religion affect their political jobs? caller: i'm ok with that. host: you're ok with that happening for christians, catholics, for all religions? caller: all religions. all people should be allowed to speak peacefully and express their opinion. host: no one is saying that people cannot talk about their religion but should their religion be leading them in their political job, where they are supposed to represent their constituents? caller: that is a good question. i do not think anybody's

religion should be allowed to dictate how anything operates. host: so you disagree with speaker johnson. caller: i'm going back to agreeing with speaker johnson, sorry. host: let's go to donald on the independent line. good morning. caller: thank you for c-span. the declaration of independence says god created all men equal but he did not define a biblical god in the declaration. they did not define any god other than nature's god, which is an indication that mr. johnson is very wrong on the interpretation. it is not that the constitution is an artificial construct to

implement the beliefs of the declaration of independence. what they were trying to do in the declaration for one thing is the concept of the divine right of kings, which meant that kings spoke to god and consequently, he could tell everybody else what to do. the declaration was to try to en d that. we have always tried to achieve -- to bring any kind of god into the discourse of government is a ms. service to the conduct of our government. host: there will be some people

who will argue that if they cannot use their religion and their political duties, that is an infringement upon their religion which the government is also not supposed to do. what would be your argument then? caller: i would say, again, they have their beliefs, and they have the moral compasses from their religion, but they cannot approach it, to some degree, what that moral compass is, but they can impose that moral compass. they are all equal and have a voice in this government. none should outweigh any other. it should go back to the belief that if there is no guide that we should rule the country --

the country should be ruled by -- in my opinion, we do what we feel is right. host: let's go to james calling from florida on the democrat line. good morning. caller: good morning. it is a really touchy situation here. we have over 60 different religions and i believe in the separation of church and state. strongly because you can use your faith that your home, but if you work for the government, you need to keep your faith at home and use your good judgment at work.

i do not work for the government, but it is common sense to separate a with the republican party spearheading their religion, i am a christian, but i do not leave they should be involved in the government. host: there are plenty of places we can find in the american government where he was the bible and christianity, and god we trust. they swear on a bible. is that a contradiction to the separation of church and state? caller: that is a good argument. that is true. every system here begins with a prayer and the pledge of

allegiance. really, it should be separate, but it is not. you are right about that as well. host: we not believe in the separation of church and state even though we keep quoting that there should be a wall between the two? caller: exactly, sir. i enjoy talking to you about this because it is contradicting what we say with the government and all, that they say that religion has no business in our government, yet they promote it as well. so, where are we standing, in the middle? host: let's go to beth calling from new jersey on the republican line.

caller: i agree with speaker johnson. i found a delightful and refreshing to see that he went into a prayer when he was elected speaker. let's face it, this country is on a downward spiral right now and we need prayer more than ever. no, references to god should not be take of -- taken off of our money or from the pledge of allegiance. the country was founded on religion and it should remain so. host: would you be ok with people who are not christians, people who are jewish, muslim, people who are other religions bringing their religion into american government and into public life as well? caller: probably ok with that.

prayer is important and we need prayer more than ever. host: ok. let's go to henry on the independent line. in morning. caller: good morning. i believe that true christianity has been hijacked in america by white nationalism. it was only a few years ago that evangelical christians could go to church, go to sunday school, hear a sermon preached, and then an hour later be out on the square, hanging a black man while their children a popcorn and lick candy apples. and if that were not enough, they would castrate them. these christians like mike johnson are the ones that

perpetrated a big lie that almost brought this country to its knees in january 2020, mike johnson was one of the main ones who stood behind donald trump and i cannot understand how they can stand up, pray, and -- jesus and many will call my name, but only if he will answer. they can set up and pray and everything. he knew a tree by the fruit it bears. look at all of this. you stand up and pray -- host: when you advocate for eliminating all villages references from american government? caller: that is a heavy and deep

question. i cannot go that far, but i know a person's actions are dictated by their faith, so i cannot -- it is in god we trust on our money. we like to say the god of judaism, but look at our actions when we came out here and wiped out complete people who believed in a god like we did, but we wiped them out. we have to pinpoint who is the god that we are talking about when we say i pledge of allegiance to the flag? host: how do we judge someone's religion and whether they are following it or not? caller: i will say this, not to be long-winded, but the bible says, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you

free. it is a lot of false religions out there. not to be judgmental, but just knowing the tree by the fruit it bears. evangelical based individuals, look at what is happening to the country. i would go as far as to say this. the so-called church will be the downfall of america, by backing this person with antichrist. . thank you for listening. host: -- antichrist spirit. thank you for listening. host: i want to read to you a little bit from this poll and let you look at some of the numbers. according to research, 45% of u.s. adults, including about six in0 christians say that they

think that this country should be a christian nation. about one third said the u.s. is right now a christian nation. 77% said churches and houses of worship should not endorse political candidates when it comes to elections. 70% said they should not be endorsing clinical candidates and others said all religious institutions should keep out of political matters. that is from a poll from last year where they found out that 45% of u.s. adults, including 10 insects christians think that this country should be a christian nation. our question for uas, do you think house speaker mike johnson is correct and that the

separation of church and state is misunderstood and that public officials should be able to use their faith in their public decisions? let's go to the democrat line. henry, good morning. caller: hello. i wonder how many christians, how many republicans come how many republican christians and mike johnson himself realize that the kinds of christians who are comprised of the founding father were not the kind of christians that mike johnson and today's republicans are. we were largely utilitarian, which is a very liberal denomination. i can tell you that they are overwhelmingly democratic. i wonder how many democrats and republican christians know that thomas jefferson's -- he created

the jefferson bible. jefferson bought several copies of the bible, one in greek, another in-line, a couple in english, and he took his scissors to it and cut out the portions of the bible where the superstition and salting the earth of your photos, all that stuff. it is called the jefferson bible and it was handed out to new members of congress in the knee -- on the day that they were inaugurated for a number of election cycles and openings of congress during the middle decades. it is just amazing how warped it has become. i really do suggest that people

google jefferson bible and it will be a real eye-opener. i would like to add something else about god. i think god is present in the form of god's creation and the environment. republicans do not care about whether we ruin the climate. the people are making a lot of money off of that. there is no religion or spirituality there. host: let me interrupt you really quick. you think religion has anyplace in government? for example, the federal government takes off christmas. should the federal government be doing that? should we be acknowledging it at all in our public life? caller: at least our morals and

spiritual nature, sure. we are creatures of what the universe is. we are all walking miracles, living beings on a living planet, which is still the only living planet that we know exists in this galaxy, and we are ruining it. we had the hottest year. host: let's go to john calling from santa paula, california on the republican line. good morning. caller: those last two to be a collars were pretty excited. they had a lot of coffee but i would like to say that mike johnson is a really smart guy and i think he made a good point. the constitution, if it is improved perpetrated by moral people has a chance of not being

interpreted correctly. it is better to have moral people interpret the constitution. i have no problem with him loving god and expressing his love for god and i wish more and more of our people would do that. host: who decides who is moral and who is not under that system? caller: it is individual. whoever professes, you can take it or leave it. host: i want to make sure that you understand my question. the decision should be interpreted by moral people, but who decides who is moral and gets to make that interpretation? caller: the voters. right now we have a government creating a religion that is

encompassing a lot of people. it is forming their views, and the government is totally behind it. the government is against the constitution. that climate change is unfounded fine -- science. the climate change the guy before me talked about is not exist. it is god's will that we are the only planet with humans on it. the planet is going to survive long after the humans go. the whole thing about climate change is a religion. it is made to capture people's minds. it is made to offset logical thinking. the sun is getting bigger. there is no cure for that. so the people on this climate change thing and actually using it to manipulate people, actually using it to make it

harder. if we really are dying as a species, if we are really going extinct, why don't they make it easier for us? why are they raising gas prices? we have all this technology. if we actually are going extinct , we should be making life easier for the planet, not harder. i think the government, especially the democrats have created this religion of climate change, and it is a false religion. host: you're saying you agree with mike johnson, that religion should play a bigger part in government and political decisions, or are you saying that you disagree with mike johnson and that religion should play less or no part in political life? caller: he said that the constitution should be interpreted by moral people.

it could be any decision, but it has to be a moral decision. what is immoral is because people are going and making money off of it and making bad decisions about the climate. so, no, the thing about climate change, that is a religion. you need to look at it as a religion that you need to reject. the democrats have bought into it, but they have no solution. host: let's go to david from georgia on the independent line. good morning. caller: let me get my thoughts back together. yes. i'm going to say something that your listeners never hear. i believe in what thomas jefferson said about all the

dogma in the bible. it says we the people, not the we the blessed people. that is the inference to it all. we are being led around by people reading a book that was weaponized by a king to create a protestant religion to have a reformation and hold an inquisition of anybody that would not bend the knee. that is very are at. mr. in his references offended me greatly by saying that the bible should be our guide. the bible is the biggest lie that they are playing off of. you can go back through its history and see how it was proposed and how it was written.

you can see where they have banned the books. the books we have now are interpreted to mean what the king of england wanted or the pope wanted. it is not what the people wanted. we are tired of people thinking we can do anything by holding up this book. like i said, i'm an educated heathen and legend, to me, it has been messed up. but we are doing today started in 1845 with the southern baptist convention. it was the portal for all the propaganda, that the south rose up and got one million people killed, to cause a reformation. this is all the southern baptist

convention is interested in is a reformation so that the haters can go out and kill, and do all the things that they were talking about. this is who they are, america, you have to remember that the reason mike johnson said these things is because religion had fallen below 50% in the u.s., and not just will not do for them because they are losing followers. that is the whole thing. they have been using that convention, the 40,000 that gets them propaganda. propaganda is a religious word. they are using that propaganda put out by the convention at those 47,000 churches to indoctrinate the mind of the young. they will follow it. it is the mob that turned its

back on jesus christ. host: speaking of mike johnson, after his speech, mike johnson came to the house of representatives and talked about religion and god in his life and how it affects him. here is what he had to say about religion in his first speech as speaker. >> i think all of our parents are proud of what we are called here to do. great pride in this institution, but right now it is in jeopardy. we have a challenge to rebuild and restore that trust. this is a beautiful country, it is the beauty of america that allows a fire fighters kid like me to come to the chamber where great men and women have served to build and preserve what lincoln did refer to as the last

best hope. the world is in turmoil, but a strong america is good for the entire world. [applause] we are the beacon of freedom and we must preserve. we do not know how long this will last, but we know that the founders told us to take care. i want to tell my colleagues when i titled the republicans in that room last night. i do not believe that there are any coincidences in something like this. i think the bible is very clear that god is the one that raises up those in authority. i believe god has ordained and

brought every one of us to this moment, in this time. i believe each one of us has a huge responsibility today to use the gift god has given us to serve the people of this great country. and to ensure that our public remains standing as a great beacon of light and freedom in a world that desperately needs it host:. let's see what some of our social media followers are saying about speaker mike johnson, who thought that the separation of church and state is misunderstood. here is a tweet that says, there is a misunderstanding here. here is another post that says, i am free to practice religion. i am free to not practice religion.

another post says, the people who fled england were running away from the heavy hand of relion from the government. trying to use religion to retain power goes against god and government. another tweet says, i'm pretty sure that speaker johnson has a great many things on misunderstood. when churches start demonizing ledges parties or receive -- reality is the opposite of what the founder -- wh t speaker claimed. the party supports false narratives, and that is not a good thing. we want to know what you think about the new house speaker who

said that the separation of church and state is misunderstood. let's go to ray calling from arizona on the democrat line. caller: good morning. speaker johnson is kind of scary coming to tell you the truth. it is ok if he wants to use the bible to establish his moral compass, but do not try to bring that to his job, he thinks he is ordained. if he is such a moral person, what is he doing supporting donald trump? a lot of the problems are all kind of religious. they arise from the fact that democrats are the party of the new testament and republicans

are the party of the old. host: salt lake city, utah on the republican line. good morning. caller: hey. the speaker is 100% right. everybody has this wrong. jefferson wrote that the separation from church and state is how it is written and everybody turns it around. it is hard to listen in to some of those sheeple calling in. they are trying to destroy us. biden and obama, they are all helping advanta destroying america, and it is not right. we did not start the fire. the world has been burning since the world has been turning. out of reach, out of touch, how

did you learn to hate so much? when you are a person who tears a pollster down from a palestinian who has been kidnapped, what kind of person have you become to tear that pollster down? it is backwards and we are in lala land? what was it that seinfeld said, where it was vice versa and we are all losing our touch if we do not stand up and start fighting for america. when it is gone, it is over, sheeple. host: a call from the democratic line. good morning. caller: absolutely not. mike johnson is just reaching for votes because he knows he can be ousted from speakership soon because of the people who do not like what he did, reaching over to the democratic party.

religion should never be put in state. it can never be fair. look at what happened with roe v. wade. they decided to use their religious faith -- faith. where was religion during post and pre-jim crow? everybody has a different way to interpret the bible and right now i have a feeling that evil is trying to strike right now. but in the end, good prevailed. it is just slower right now. i'm going to get a t-shirt and where that. i will call mike johnson and let him know how i feel about his vote reaching attitude. that speech he gave is just a speech for votes. he does not care about anything other than keeping his speakership. that is how the congress is right now. they do not care about us. i'm glad that there is no money

-- we have a really bad media. that is all i got. thank you. host: let's talk to dan calling from arizona. dan on the independent line. good morning. caller: hello. i'm calling about the freedom of religion. it is very short. all i have to say is that religion is a private matter between an individual and his beliefs should never be involved in a government like our democracy, at all. that is all i have to say. god bless america and may you have your own belief or no belief. that is the government way. that is the way it should be in a democracy like ours. host: let's go to mike calling

from huntington, california on the republican line. caller: good morning, how are you doing? host: i am fine. how are you? caller: i appreciate what you are doing and i agree with a few people who say that religion should be to yourself and your maker. when you look in the mirror, you know the honest truth. it should be kept that way. government, political processes, jobs, that is different. i'm just saying keep it to yourself, that way you do not force it upon other people, and you do not force your religion

on other countries. that is what causes war. that is what causes turmoil. host: let's go to maxwell, calling from culpeper, virginia. maxwell, good morning. caller: good morning. i am one of those heathens from the south, as the other guy called them. mike johnson reminds me of those southern christians that used to go to church on sunday and sell tickets, and watch slaves cook fried chicken, make potato salad, and then watch those people get lynched. those are the types of christian that mike johnson is and those are the types of people do not need running our government. this guy is a fraud.

he is that type of christian. he is one of those racist type christians. host: all right. let's go to jimmy calling from massachusetts on the independent line. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i believe this country was founded upon religion. better life, mayor -- better morals -- but things are really turned around right now. the democrats, especially. they have ceased our oil and used it as a weapon. they are causing a huge increase in energy. furthermore, they are using it to finance russia. they are giving russia all this money. they are killing ukrainians.

the middle east is alive with action now. you know what? if we had a good leader, they would take the oil, make the whole country green, solve all problems. it would be able to get the price down so that americans could afford to live. corporations have seized this country and we can see it. the one who is a workingman is forced to pay triple for everything because big names and big money has taken control of this. there is lot on their hands for killing all these people and it is awful. we need god back in our lives. many nations have fallen because of perverted and crazy things that they do.

america needs guide, desperately. i feel bad. people know it and they need to be angry about this energy thing. you can change the whole country and we could eventually cut down on production but instead, someone is paying off someone and is forcing us to buy oil from countries that want to destroy america. host: calling from alaska on the republican line. caller: good morning. life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. and nowhere does it say, in jesus we trust, or in we trust, karen we trust -- is in god, we trust. i believe mike is correct.

originally, separating church and state was the idea that the king where the government can come down on you and censure you for believing in what you want to believe or say what you want to say, so life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. when that line is crossed, that is when there is a problem. it is not in my god we trust or your god, it is in god we trust. there is nothing wrong with that, people. host: there was a poll that came out and spoke to american voters asking, how important is religion and who you vote for in the ballot box?

it comes from the harris poll that was in the news. it found that 61% of republicans said that religion was very were somewhat important and who they voted for. it was very similar for democrats. 57% of democrats said religion was important or somewhat important or somewhat important in who they voted for. independent said religion was very were somewhat important for who they voted for. this is a poll that was taken in september 2023, of more than 1000 registered voters nationwide. apparently, many americans, more

than half of democrats and republicans say that religion is important, when they decide who to vote for. a little less than half of independents say that religion was important in who they voted for. our question for you is, what do you think of the new house speaker mike johnson saying that the separation of church and state is misunderstood in america? let's talk to elizabeth calling on the line. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for having me. i think there is a common misperception that there is some sort of morality. i did study different decisions. truthfully, morals are not a part of law. the law is created -- this does

not include morality. the law changed, back-and-forth, based on the ideas at the time. it can be looked at as a moral standpoint but these are laws that do not have morality involved at all, so we as people actually create the laws to mimic the norms. there is really no religion. host: let's go to donna calling on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. i believe what the speaker was

saying, abstractly it is true, but in practice, humans have trouble with that. i think in god we trust is fine but it does not name a particular guide. in practice, humans have a tendency to associate with people of their own beliefs, and we are all biased in our beliefs, based on our experiences. i think in god we trust -- i think all religions trying to get to morality but in practice, there are a lot of hypocrites, and religion can be used to manipulate, and oppress. it is difficult because i think there should be a separation of church and state. it should not be governed by a religion because religions are

used by people who are very biased. we should shoot for the golden rule, spiritual elevation. we want to be right and have other people be wrong. host: let's go to john calling from texas on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. this is a very interesting discussion. there is no separation of church and state. the first book published in the congress came together was the bible. it was used at schools to teach kids how to read. it was based on the bible. i want to go back to the lady from florida.

she is 100% wrong. the laws we have are based off the 10 commandments and the reasons the democrats and progressives are so anxious to get that out of our lives is because there are 40 sources of authority. there is your god and government. communist nations outlawed religion because they want to be the final source of authority. what it is about is replacing god with government. so the government can tell you what is right and wrong and not what you know is right and wrong. host: let's go to the next collar on the democrat line. caller: good morning. just from the bible, when we read about jesus when he walked

the earth, i think they knew there was a government. there is a separation there. running away from kings who were trying to kill the new baby -- there was government there. we live in a world like that. people have to understand that. host: all right. let's go to nick, calling from louisiana on the independent line. caller: yes. i want everybody to know this. when you get judged with the second coming of the crane's -- of christ, it is not going to be a group. you will be judged. you have to stand in front of god and know what you are doing.

there is no such thing -- that goes to say that church and state does not belong together. it has nothing to do with god we trust. it has nothing to do with that. but a person standing -- [indiscernible] the government is nothing but wills and regulations. we are just trying to live a righteous life, but you cannot bring church and state together because the decisions that we make our different. you have to confess out of your mouth and confess in your heart

that god is our savior. on that cross, he gave his blood for us. the only thing he did for us is gave us choice. the devil is out there and he will infiltrate us. that is why, you do not bring church and state together. host: let's go to john, calling from ohio, on the above --the republican line. caller: tibia points. point number one, i reviewed the video and what the speaker said is that morality and virtue is necessary in a system of government. we have to think about it in a democrat -- anybody can rise up, in theory and become involved in

government and achieve political power. in a situation like that where even a tv star like donald trump or anybody else can rise up to get political power, it is necessary in this experiment for that person to have a foundation of her -- morality and virtue. that is point number one. number two is that we will always have a pension -- a tension between church and state. that is because in our constitution, our rights in the bill of rights, where do they come from? they comethey come from natural. -- they come from natural rights. where do natural rights come from? from the four officers of the time. host: let's go to kevin who is calling on the democrat line.

caller: hi, how are you doing today? host: just fine. caller: great. i wanted to call in and give my opinion on separation of church and state. it's clear that the morality of the church has had to catch up to the morality of the people when it comes to issues of slavery. i could go on and on. i think it is time to finally put a bookend to this, separate church and state. let people have their religious holidays and worship privately. of course. but we can't be making laws and policy based on that. host: all right. let's go to luck, calling from montana. caller: i believe we should have a separation of church and state. that's why we went to the middle east, because theocracy was

going on in afghanistan, iran and israel has a theocracy. i don't think we should have a theocracy in america. i think we should have separation of church and state. sure, we can have a day off. everyone deserves a day off. people can take days off if they want to take days off or give them the day off just because. they should be able to spend time with their friends and family during the holidays or during time off. but no, we should have a separation of church and state. we shouldn't have in god we trust anywhere in our markings or society like that because everyone has a different religion or no religion. people are scared of no religion because of propaganda in the 1950's and propaganda the church created to keep things well-maintained and governed so we went by what they wanted. we need church and state separated. people who want to worship can worship privately. we don't need it in the state. thank you. host: we like to thank all of our callers who called in for

our first segment. coming up next on "washington journal" brian kilmeade will be here to discuss his new book, penny and booker t. -- teddy and booker t. and later, we will talk to chris lehmann to talk about campaign 2020 four and the news of the day. stick with us. we will be right back. ♪ >> monday, watch the conclusion of the c-span series in partnership with the library of congress, books that shaped america. it will feature the words of cesar chavez, published in 2002, it's a collection of speeches and writings by the labor leader and civil rights activist. it recounts the history of the farm labor movement and explains how he used nonviolent methods like marches and fasting to deliver his message for better pay and working conditions for

migrant farmworkers. miriam powell, journalist and author of the biography titled the crusades of cesar chavez will join us on the program to discuss the book. watch books that shaped america, featuring the words of cesar chavez, monday, live at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. c-span now, our free mobile app or online at c-span.org. be sure to scan the qr code to listen to our companion podcasts where you can learn more about the authors of the books featured. ♪ >> c-span studentcam documentary competition is back, celebrating 20 years. this year's theme, looking forward while considering the past. we are asking middle and high school students to create a 5-6 minute video addressing one of these questions. in the next 20 years, what is the most important change you would like to see in america? or, over the past 20 years,

what's the most important change in america? as we do each year, we are giving away $100,000 in total prizes with a grand prize of $5,000 and every teacher who has students participate in this year's competition has the opportunity to share a portion of an additional $50,000. the competition deain is friday, january 19th, 2024 read for more information, visit our website at studentcam.org. >> a healthy democracy doesn't just look like this. it looks like this. where americans can see democracy at work. a republic thrives. get informed, straight from the source, on c-span. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. from the nation's capital to wherever you are. it's the opinion -- because the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like.

c-span, powered by cable. >> monday, a three-judge panel from the u.s. court of appeals from a d.c. circuit considers whether to ate a gag order against former president donald in the federal election erence case. live coverages at 9:30 a.m. eastern on c-span two, c-span now and online at c-span.org. >> washington journal continues. host: we are back and we are joined this morning by fox news host and author brian kilmeade, who is here this morning to talk about his new book, teddy and booker t, how two american icons blazed a path for racial equality. brian, good morning. guest: good morning. thanks for having me on. host: i want to say, i spent time reading your book over the weekend and i want to start by asking you why did you decide to write this book? guest: number one, i read up on slavery, abraham lincoln,

frederick douglass, i read up on slavery first and then i read frederick douglass's autobiography and thought let me do that in biological order and go back to booker t. when you read about booker t. washington, he refers to teddy roosevelt often. teddy roosevelt wrote the forward to one of his last books. i wanted to see is it just me that sees this important relationship and they said no. we will help you out. i went to tuskegee, they were fantastic. i was able to look at all of the writings booker t put out there. whatever people think that about him, it's even better. i am in awe of what this man accomplished, how selfless he was and how determined he was. for anybody who needs inspiration because they don't have parents, bad parents, bad

schools, economic challenges, if you read booker t. washington, he ins up being one of the most inspirational people in american history. there is nothing you can't accomplish. host: before we talk about teddy roosevelt booker t. washington, your book is dedicated to jim brown. talk to me about why you wanted that dedication in your book. guest: i've always looked up to him and heard about him as a mythical figure. my dad owned a bar. they were roughly the same age and they used to talk about what a legend he was in basque ball, lacrosse and what an impact he had. -- basketball, lacrosse and what impact he had. and then in the 1960's with kareem abdul-jabbar and bill russell. it turned out, i ended up posting a show with him and we had a friendship that lasted over 20 years. no matter what i did, where i was, i always would keep in

touch. the worst case scenario, i would be at the super bowl and we would talk and i watched his family surround my family and monique and i have become very friendly. he was talking about where he was from and his perspective that i could never have gotten. he was open to it. you couldn't ask him a question that would be considered racially insensitive. i would say what about growing up here? and having your mom living in the second floor of the house and never knowing your dad and everything he accomplished. and going to his house and seeing recently released prisoners, trying to teach them life skills in los angeles, overlooking this beautiful house. everyone has been incarcerated for a long time and they were walking around in his house, freely. and i thought here is a guy who could hang out with the biggest stars in hollywood but wanted to change the lives of people did not make it and did not have the athletic ability or the

education. and i thought i have to learn from this guy. he got to know my family and the insight he gave me on racial issues in america was phenomenal. i thought that gave me the groundwork to approach this project and the previous one. host: let's make sure all of our viewers are on the same page when we talk about teddy roosevelt and booker t. washington. tell us a little bit about president teddy roosevelt in the times in which he knew booker t. washington. most people probably know teddy roosevelt from carry a big stick and the charge of san juan hill. tell us a little bit about president roosevelt. and am i pronouncing that correctly? sometimes i hear roosevelt versus roosevelt, which one is the correct pronunciation? guest: i've heard it pronounced both ways by the family. you can't go wrong. how can you compare the two?

one has seven generations of wealth and the other was born a slave. i'm not saying that they are equal. but if you think teddy roosevelt is just a rich kid who had a great education and went to harvard and became president, you are missing 99% of his story. no matter how rich you are, if you don't have your health, you don't have anything. his family was watching him lose his breath and wondering if he would breathe again. he had intestinal cholera and no one knew exactly what it was. even though his family was wealthy, they understood that if you don't have tomorrow and you are told your kid might not survive, you live everyday like it is your last. he didn't go to a regular school

until he got to harvard. he began to find himself in politics. he would eventually become assistant secretary of the navy, doing a great job with no name positions in washington. after that, he quit when the spanish war started and he just goes into the military. and he becomes a colonel and a war hero in cuba as he fights for freedom over there. and comes back. officials meet him and say you have to run for governor and he does. and he wins and he starts turning over the tables and wrecking all of the power base and all of the corruption. because he was not interested, he did not need them to get into office. he did not want them to stay in office and they wanted to get rid of him. they had a perfect idea. they make him vice president and

he runs with william mckinley and it is a do-nothing job. he is hiking in the mountains when he hears the president was shot, he will be fine. the president dies and he becomes president. he was one of the most successful and impactful presidents in our history. he read up on slavery when he was vice president and he said i have to meet booker t. washington. they met in 1901 in manhattan and they wondered how can we help each other? he said let me go see tuskegee, fantastic. mckinley dies and he becomes president and we found the later -- letter of him saying dear mr. washington, i have my hands full. they set up a time to meet and booker t. washington, this nine-year-old born a slave, ends up being one of the key advisors to teddy roosevelt throughout

his 7.5 years as president. their friendship lasted beyond that and he became a member of the tuskegee board. host: i want you to tell our viewers more about booker t. washington. before we get there, i want to remind our viewers they can take part in this conversation. we will open up regional lines. that means if you are in the eastern or central time zones, you can call (202) 748-8000. if you are in the mountain or pacific time zones, your number is going to be (202) 748-8001. once again, eastern and central, it is (202) 748-8000. mountain and pacific, it is (202) 748-8001. keep in mind, you can always text us at (202) 748-8003. and we are always on social media on at c-span wj -- on x

at c-span wj and on facebook at facebook.com/c-span. for some people who might not know who booker t. washington is, can you tell us more about him before we get into their relationship? you mention he came up from slavery and he was a slave from nine years old. tell our audience more about booker t. washington. guest: booker t. washington was born a slave, never knew his dad. he never remembers playing any games or being able to get a full education but always remembered wanting one. he was thirsty for education. even though he would play with the white kids, when it came to school, he was permitted to go. one day, his mom would have to speak. sometimes they did not have enough food for her. we know about the brutality of slavery. he remembers going to the

central house of the plantation. there was a union soldier and he made the announcement that you are all free. he read the emancipation proclamation verbatim. he remembers his mom crying and he said she's not set, she's -- sad, she's happy. what does this mean? we can do whatever we want. oh my goodness, we want and we have nothing. she ends up having a relationship with ferguson washington and they hop on a wagon and they go to west virginia. the minute they get there, they have to go to work. they go to work, the 10-year-old now, and his brother go into the minds and he is -- mines and he is claustrophobic. he says one of the numbers?

and what is one and eight? that is the salt. he convinced his mom, i need a book. and he gets a dictionary. and he starts memorizing words and letters. you talk about the power of positive thinking, this is everything. he manifested this. he overhears two people talking about how bad this woman is and she is impossible to work with. she's impossible. he says what job is this? and you have to up keep her house. he goes to his mom and she says you can tries this -- try this. it turns out she's a great woman who just wants things done right. the basics of hygiene, and in return, she starts teaching him the alphabet and teaching him to

read. he ended up living with her and at 16, he became such a great student, he hears other men talk and he says i'm going to hampton college. the family pulled together to get $12 and then he goes to hampton college. he ran out of money, they had no food. when he arrives, he's a mess. when he gets to the vestibule, they said we can't accept you, we don't know where you are from, what's your background? what is going on? he comes back and the third time, they said what do you want? he said what i'd like to do is be a student. they said let me see how good you are, how hard you are willing to work. he cleans the classroom. they said let me watch you clean

another classroom and he does it. that guy ended up being the best student in school and ended up becoming a teacher there, giving a commencement address to the graduate students and general armstrong said i want you to come back and run the night school. he gets a letter, we are going to start this school in alabama called tuskegee. we need somebody to run it. they said ok, i have the perfect guy. booker t. washington. is he white? no, he's black. we want a white guy. well, you are getting a black eye. booker t takes the job and shows up. he has nothing but a broken down schoolhouse. he has to get students in 10 days, a curriculum and teachers. he does it. most of the students are older than him. he knocks door-to-door in this community of tuskegee of all black african americans and he brings them in. starts with early five and then builds. and then he gets acres a short

way away. other people see it and they give him more. he begins to expand the school. you don't just learn books, you learn a trade. he said at this point, white people aren't going to look to hire you. you have to be indispensable. you have to have a skill and you have to understand the books. he takes the basics of attrition, the hygiene, how to look people in the eye, the interaction. a lot of times the things you get from parents and extended family, he is teaching them. everything he does is recruit, money, finances, donations for tuskegee. he never takes a day off for the next 15 years. in a short time, he is graduating 1500 a year, more than harvard and yale. that is this one man tornado. whatever superlatives you have for him, i don't think it is enough. the controversy is people think

he was too a cotta mating -- accommodating in the separated jim crow south and i think he was practical. this is the time in which i am born, let's make it better. host: you've set up our audience with historical information about theodore roosevelt and historical information about booker t. you said they first met in manhattan. what was race relations like during that time where teddy and booker t. washington are together? and where they able to change anything guest: i think they changed a lot that they did not do it through dramatic marches and protests and sit ins. they did it with action. you grew up and you look at a figure in the deep south and you grew up your whole life, whites are better than blacks. you can sit there and say they are totally wrong and be 100% right. or, i can just show you.

i can tell you with an education i'm everything you can be and if you level the playing field, we are all equal. i can tell you that or i can bring you to tuskegee and show you hampton college and you can look at those graduates and see the injustices and i can hire a black man or woman and i can see the productivity. that changes minds and that makes people realize we got it wrong. jim crow south, everything you read about the brutality is correct. the poll taxes to vote, the intimidation, correct. the unjustified, they never were, lynchings. that's what, as ugly as that was and it doesn't mean everybody, if you are watching in the south, i'm not indicting any families, i'm talking

holistically, i'm not soft pedaling. i'm not saying jim crow had good sites. no. it was a big setback in 1877, the compromise that said union soldiers out of the south, the south can do their own thing. they were not ready, they went backwards in generations paid the price. i believe if lincoln had survived the 1860's, we would not have needed the civil rights revolution of the 1960's. it might be simplistic but post-civil war america was taken out by a lunatic actor. john wilkes booth did more to hurt america than any single human being, including bin laden and hit let. this would have been a fine, shining example of when to let everyone grow to make america an equal place for all. when i think is so admirable about booker t., he did it in

the south. he could have gone north. he did it in the south. and he said this is what i'm surrounded by. i'm going to change people by what they see. we are going -- just leave them in the town for a put them in tuskegee. we will learn to make our own bricks. we are going to donate to tuskegee. whatever the perception was in my life, there was slavery and i'm looking at these students and professors and the adjustment of this new workforce and i love it. you know who was impressed? andrew carnegie, j.p. morgan, julian rozenmore. i can't say enough good things. i know w.e.b. dubois was a protagonist. he was more malcolm x. i look at booker t as more like

martin luther king. i'm not saying anybody was bad or w.e.b. dubois wasn't brilliant but one was a riot and an activist and one was a massive educator that changed the world. one of the professors at tuskegee i talked to was from africa. and he said we use this curriculum in our schools and my goal was to be professor -- a professor at tuskegee and here i am. i think his legacy is still being felt. host: once again, teddy becomes president. did he ever invite booker t to the white house? booker t becomes leader of tuskegee, did he ever get teddy roosevelt to come down to alabama? guest: yes. teddy roosevelt became a member of the board and gave a commencement address. a lot of times, i try to wipe out perceptions and opinion on all of this.

he was overwhelmed from what he saw. he had a mom whose brother was part of the confederacy. he had that element in his life, in his house in new york. new york city, in long island. his mom probably had some views that showed blind spots because of how he was brought in. it changed the perception of what he knew when he grew up. he went there for dinner. teddy roosevelt found out. they showed up and had dinner at the white house, the whole family and booker t. and they talked until 11:00 at night and he went home and some reporter said wait a second, a black man ate dinner at the white house with a white

president? that's going to be a scandal. it's some of the most horrific coverage you will read about that horrible dinner, and i'm being sarcastic, between two successful men who are working to make the country better and i'm embarrassed by it. it was referenced by john mccain to talk about how far the country has come after he lost to barack obama for the presidency. he said at one point when booker t. washington was invited to the white house, it was considered a national scandal. and now, we have a black president who will be hosting that dinner. that just shows how far our country has come. host: let me remind our viewers, they can take part in the conversation. we are opening up regional lines. if you are in the eastern or central time zone, you are at (202) 748-8000. if you are in the mountain or pacific time zones, your number is (202) 748-8001. you can always text us at (202) 748-8003. let's go straight to our phone

lines and let's start with justin, who is calling from lincoln, nebraska. justin, good morning. caller: hey, good morning. i'll try to be brief. i'd love to say i've been watching a little too much fox and friends. i have two full questions. the second half is easier. i'd like you to answer it second. my second question being do you feel this is something america has walked or is walking still? the first question, i was going to ask how you squared this book subject matter and the need for it, the need for this kind of history, against your years on tv, villain icing urban individuals and calling protests riots and misconstruing mlk's

words, since you just mentioned him, is this book a continuation of that progress? guest: let me take the first part. the first part, yes. we are always trying to get better. i think one of the great things about our country is we are always trying to get better. there is always ways to make it better. as you look back 15 years, 20 years, what was on television, the way we viewed things, we are always trying to be better. the main thing i want to point out is how hard people work in our country to make it better along the way and say hey, i love this country. i want to make it better that i'm not going to run it down. we are all on the same team. you might be upset with the coach or the offensive coordinator in football but we all want to win, right? and we are all happy to be here, correct? the answer is always yes. what worries me now about the country is i wonder why people seem to be arrogant as if the country is not good enough for

them, instead of realizing this country, like every country, is never perfect. does not have a perfect past and maybe won't have a perfect future but everybody wants to be here for a reason. for the potential for opportunity to live the life you want to live, while being selfless and making the country better. what worries me of late is people don't have respect for how great it is. i guess the second half of the question was how it squares on fox, it goes perfect with fox. we are about self-reliance. very patriotic -- it's a very patriotic place. we get up in the morning and we are one of the few networks who doesn't think to themselves, what has america done wrong today? i think people appreciate it.

i never thought we were perfect. i never thought we should hide our past. i never thought slavery was just something that happened. it's a problem, it's the original sin of america. our founding fathers wrestled with it. but i read what they said and how they dealt with it. we are trying to take down washington's statue, we boxed up teddy roosevelt's statue and columbus was the worst person to ever walk the face of the earth. andrew jackson has to be taken down. some of our presidents had slaves. and there was no excuse for it but they were a person of their time. that was the culture they were born into. even among african, newly freed, had to take a last name. the most popular last name was washington. because they looked up to him in many circumstances. and we used to look at our past

and be proud of it. from the 1619 project down, people are going out of their way to say america is not that great. really? if you find a better country, stay. if you want to make this country better, let's have at it. let's find out a way to make it better. i think that's the philosophy that i try to go to. and when i'm on your radio station, i think it's klin every day for three hours, i'm fortunate to be there. you can hear me talk about that on a regular basis. host: let's go to fred, who is calling from saginaw, michigan. if i understand correctly, you are a descendant of booker t. washington, correct? caller: he's on my moms side of the family. we are related to him through his uncle, james burrell's, whose daughter is married into the simmons family. good morning, brian. guest: good morning.

thanks so much for calling. caller: not a problem. we did a lot of dna research and my grandmother used to call booker t uncle book. and i used to do some work in d.c. and i did some work at the carter g woodson foundation and i said he would have a fit if he found out that i was booker t. washington's cousin and i was helping them with their technology at howard university. i just wanted to ask about the tenor of the country and what appears to be a lack of integrity amongst our governmental leaders, when it comes to just the basic truth. and, where do you see that changing in the near future? guest: -- andrew jackson and the

miracle of new orleans, sam houston, the alamo avengers and what happened after the alamo and the president freedom fighter. and now i have teddy and booker t. the one thing that keeps popping up is we always seem to get the right person at the right time. the founding fathers were the founding fathers and we got them. what they did was extraordinary. andrew jackson, this orphan kid at 12 ended up being a fantastic leader. nobody bet on teddy roosevelt, despite his wealth, his dad's wealth. it was his health that destroyed him and people thought he was insane. they thought he was over the top and somebody they mocked behind his back. all he did was become this incredible scholar, this physical specimen and this inspirational leader.

and my hope is somebody is going to rise, man or woman, who will do things to move the country forward. who understood that we have to put honesty and integrity first. and also, we live in a practical world. looking back at times, you can have somebody with honor and integrity and was fantastic but they had to function within the government. they don't necessarily have to be president. or senators. they can be leaders in other ways. and whether it is activists or great thinkers like thomas soul or victor davis hanson, we need people who bring an intellectual component to our dialogue. a lot of times, it's almost like wrestling. your opponent is the worst ever and your person is the best ever.

when obviously, it is somewhere in between. i also think there is a benefit to pointing out these people in the past. when you start realizing, wow, that is an american. that's my country, that's this guy who was born a slave and this guy who came into everything. this president changed the personification of america and how it is viewed around the world. how did he do it? i think we will get an appreciation for our country. the other thing that is crazy, you are a relative of booker t. washington. they write. frederick douglass was updating his autobiography. he had a couple of newspapers. he wanted us to read what they said. you can get inspiration from that. host: i want to read a paragraph

from your book to you and ask you a question specifically about it. here is the paragraph that i tagged. if roosevelt bought empathy to thcircumstances of america's black citizens washington -- together, they could not reverse policy but they challenged thest assumptions of their fellow americans and got black men appointed to historically unpredted positions of power. although their joyous victories have beenimited, roosevelt's public recognition of washington, brief and compromised though it was, affirmed washington's status as the most essential spokesmen of their era for black america. you know in that paragraph that their joint victories were limited. what were some of their individual accomplishments in advocating racial equality and how does their shared victory

help with their individual work? guest: countless judges that were recommended by booker t. washington were brought forward. [indiscernible] he was having african-americans in the south tell the story. number two is the access booker t. washington had to the white house. a lot of times, they said lets me, let's talk, how do we deal with the country we are in? he was able to help teddy roosevelt go back. as you see with woodrow wilson, the relationship took a huge step back with the wrong person in the office. he said if i lose, this is going to change.

our country will be divided. got it, let's help you win first. he helped teddy roosevelt win the election by delivering votes to the south. i think the unsung part of their relationship is the example. if you see teddy roosevelt read what he wrote, how many kids were told when they were growing up that they were inferior? and see the money flow into tuskegee and the prestige and seeing black and white men together, especially two of the most powerful in the country, how money people looked around and go there's no reason why i can't study and be as successful as booker t. washington? don't tell me i'm limited.

look at booker t. washington. look at the graduates. look at george washington carver and others who came out of tuskegee. look what they've done in the military. we don't win one war without the contributions of african-americans. not one do we win, not one. booker t. washington was still coming to the white house. instead of having dinner and causing controversy, because of some people's twisted perceptions, hey, let's meet at 11:00. let's meet at 4:30. we don't necessarily have to have dinner. that's what he meant by limited. he didn't say we will have dinner five nights a week. i have no regrets about inviting him over for dinner. they pushed society faster than it was willing to go.

they could undo everything that they did. their first and foremost -- booker t. washington's first and foremost objective was tuskegee and the spreading of lack colleges. if anything impacted that negatively, he failed. if it would help tuskegee, he would have done it five days a week. but he thought i don't want the credit, the reactionaries to be taken out on my students and my college. so i will back off. but i will still use my influence the best way i can. the example of them, the way they lauded each other let people know man, i can do anything. i just think that, as the relative of booker t. washington and on the fox nation special i did, we went to places and had

tweed roosevelt contribute, the great-grandson, the advisor. and we had a great granddaughter, sarah rush, she also helped tell booker t. washington's side of the story. there could have been more influence out there but if america was not ready for it, it could have hurt their cause. the other thing was they did not agree on everything. they had controversy with the buffalo soldiers and teddy roosevelt took the side of the people and told court marshals, all the buffalo soldiers, -- booker t. washington said don't do it, these guys are in the right. he got rid of all of them. they saw eye to eye on many things. he asked booker t. washington for his endorsement when he

wanted to come back and take on taft and get the nomination to run against woodrow wilson. booker t. washington said we are friends but i can't endorse you. if you don't win, the people will block me out of the white house, whether it is taft or wilson. if you lose, it's not good for tuskegee. teddy roosevelt said ok, i get it. i know what you are about. there was a practical side to it. host: let's go back to the phone lines and talk to henry, who is calling from michigan. henry, good morning. caller: good morning. i have had to wrestle with the thought of how divided our country is and you know the reason behind that. and this morning's program has brought me full circle. i have heard about the misinformation that our people get in this country. we have been indoctrinated with the fact that thomas jefferson was a great man.

he was a slave owner who raped his slaves, had babies with them and sold them into slavery. we had johnson, who carried trump's lie about election fraud . and now we have brian kilmeade telling us about critical race theory. i mean, we've come full circle. brian kilmeade worked for fox for years. guest: i work for fox. caller: and he was on fox and friends that spread a lot of of disinformation. so much so that fox had to pay dominion's voting system $787 million. and now we are sitting here listening to him do a kumbaya moment like he is some kind of historical expert on booker t. washington and teddy roosevelt. this is just full circle.

guest: did you read the book? caller: i wouldn't read the book. i would never read anything you wrote. guest: so, all you want to do is divide people. that's all you want to do. you want to sit there, there is no perfect person that ever walked the face of the earth, ever. instead of looking at the best figure -- when people are looking at the best figure in 2023, they will say this is the best man or woman i've ever heard of. i remember barack obama in 2008 and george bush in 2004, marriage is between a man and a woman and they ran on that. if you go to george bush in 2023, he would say same-sex marriage is fine. barack obama in 2008, marriage is between a man and a woman, ok. got elected by a huge woman. -- huge margin. in 2012, he said same-sex marriage is ok and i will do everything i can put it through. was he a terrible person in 2008

and a great person in 2012? it's the best example ever of somebody in their times. and if you look back at the 2020 election, i went over and over again, i thought it was probably the worst moment in donald trump career, how he handled the loss of the election. and i said it over and over again. the one thing about fox that makes us number one is people have a diverse the of opinions. no one sits around and says this is what i think today. you study as much as you can. you work around-the-clock. you work with your sources as much as possible. in my case, i'm on for three hours in the morning. i'm proud to be part of the network that has the best, most diverse, interesting and entertaining people in television. i'm proud of that. if anyone -- fox is one of the

most successful networks in tv and broadcasting history and they came from nowhere to do it. there must be someone next to you who absolutely believes that joe biden is a genius and is a great president. barack obama was fantastic and his speeches, he never made a mistake, not even in libya. and then there is somebody who believes just the opposite. the thing about fox is you have it all. sean hannity is so much different from -- they do their own shows and they bring it to the viewer. it is such -- in such a savvy, professional way that we have been number one for over 20 years in a country that, as you said, could not be more divided. but why is it the one thing they agree on is that fox is number one? even the comedy shows, greg

beats jimmy fallon and jimmy kimmel live 11:00. his numbers are the same at 10:00 as they were at 11:00 i think they are higher. you can sit there and run down fox all you want. but it's like running down the new england patriots during their super bowl run. have at it. host: this actually is a pretty good segue to another part of your book that i want to read and have you respond to. this part of the book, you right nobody is perfect, nor is any friendship yet, boor d theodore were men of virtue, men who wke together in good faith to do good, to live up to lincoln's ambitions for a more perfect union. they were the right men for their moment, even if, at times, eiefforts misfired. the great make mistakes too. but booker t. and teddy had a vision, they had drive and their skins were tough enough that

they drove forward even in the face of often vicious criticism. we are a better nation because they chose to fight. they would not settle, recognizing that progress is always a battle. what did you mean by writing that? guest: that anybody who thinks that -- if i'm writing about two perfect people in a perfect relationship, i think it's unreal to say that. if you approach a project and you want to say ok, let me point out the good stuff and the successes, make sure it is accurate and let some buddy else look at the bad stuff where they didn't get along, i think you've only done a half service. i didn't say that teddy roosevelt didn't say some things that showed some blind spots of him as a person in his time. -- he should not have tolerated what he did in the south.

debbie be devoid founded the end -- w.e.b. dubois founded the naacp. -- gave me some great foundation with this project. i read w.e.b. dubois's last biography which was written when he was 72 years old. they said listen, there were lynchings down the street from tuskegee. these people are unjustly prosecuted, make a stand. and booker t. washington said if i become the activist antagonist, what will it do to my supporters? it will make it hard for them to support me, will it make it tough for my students when they leave the campus? a lot of the things booker t. washington did, providing attorneys for african-americans who were going on trial. providing money for shelter when they were on the run and being pushed on crimes.

that was a relationship that brought him credit. one of the most respected presidents we have of all time is ronald reagan. ok? ronald reagan, for a lot of his presidency, had a 40% approval rating. a lot of people think he just cut taxes. a lot of people think he was very tough in the middle east. it was true. but he also pulled our troops out of beirut. that didn't show strength rate i can say ronald reagan -- strength. i can say ronald reagan was a great president, yes. the navy did not have the scaredy that allowed the brutal suicide bombings that killed all of these americans. and maybe he left us susceptible to other areas in the middle east. am i telling ronald reagan's story as a great president? i think he's a great president. but if i left the other story out, i don't think we could have a good conversation about somebody.

i think there is a war on history right now. there is a war on american history. so, let's push back with facts and figures. in these figures, not perfect but great for teddy roosevelt and bookie to -- booker t. washington and that's what i meant by that. host: let's go back to the phone lines and go to susan from revere, massachusetts. caller: good morning mr. kilmeade. thank you for writing this book. i was a history major at a large jesuit university. i too, even though i am liberal and i am not a fox watcher, -- i shouldn't say several, i'm a centralist independent, it sounds like a wonderful book and i'm going to buy it. i had a couple of comments. one, i've long admired booker t. washington. i read a lot about him in high school, etc.

i grew up in the mid-atlantic and these black icons, post-civil war -- from post-civil war america are just well studied, even among white students. and later, i ended up in the biopharmaceutical industry. when i was in my early 20's, my colleague, and we became best friends at work, was a tuskegee grad and she -- she praised the curriculum which in many ways was remedial and basic, because they were dealing with a lot of kids coming out of struggling public schools. and they just weren't prepared. by the end of the four years of undergrad, these kids could compete with the best of them. and, then, you touched on it. but i always wondered about the

experience of institutions like tuskegee during, especially the jim crow period. and how they kept their campuses safe from students -- from vigilantes. it was such an act of and perseverance and poor whites were upset about that. finally, my dear friend, when she went home for homecoming, she brought me back a tuskegee sweatshirt. i will never forget it. it said once you go black, you never go back. and i thought that was hysterical. anyway, thank you for your book and thank you for cawley for his book on ulysses s grant. i agree with you. history, there is a hunger for

it and we have to embrace all of our historical figures, despite their warts, despite their flaws. despite their terrible contradictions, because history is not perfect and human beings are not perfect, either. guest: a couple of things. yeah, the book on grant, over 1000 pages. by the time i closed that book, i felt like i lost a family member. if you were to put your money on any figure who was going to rise in the future, coming from the past, put your money on grant. so many things he dealt with. he dealt with many of the things teddy roosevelt and booker t. did, in that he saw the rise of the kkk and sent the military in to take them out. but he also knew if i'm too tough before an election, i'm

not going to win. he had to pull back. the country was better off with him as president, especially when it came to race. when reelection was nearing, he would have to pull back a little bit about things he was seeing in order to win that race and stay in the white house and then go back and help out. people say why wasn't grant there? he had to be somewhat practical. in order to get that stay, i had to look the other way and then go back in after. with booker t. washington, as we mentioned, not perfect people but extraordinary people. and teddy roosevelt was somebody that sometimes are publicans like and sometimes they don't like him. he was an environmentalist in every way. kratz don't like the fact that -- democrats don't like the fact that he would go hunting all the

time and his bears were on his wall. some republicans go man, he broke up big business. i kind of liked it. but maybe republicans are upset by that. he was also somebody who was battling for the little guy a lot. he doesn't fit in your traditional republican-democratic mold. he did what he thought was best for the country and had an unbelievable mind, what seems to be a photographic memory and was the country's first major speed reader. host: let's go back to our lines and talk to sam, who is calling from atlanta, georgia. we are going to run out of time so can you make this a quick call, question or comment? caller: ok, i want to ask brian first of all, my first question is do you think ron desantis is going to ban your book in florida? guest: can you say that again? caller: i'm asking do you think

ron desantis is going to ban your book in florida? guest: no, i think this is the exact type of book that he wants. tell the whole story. but don't vilify our past from a perspective of the 1619 project. america was not built on slavery. that's not what america was about. it was an original sin, no question. it should be in every curriculum. but i want to point out figures that brought us through it. and ron desantis is cracking down -- when he talks about banning books, he is banning sexually explicit books that you wouldn't want your third or fourth grade kid to look at. he is not looking to ban historical figures. he's looking to have something that doesn't vilify america. i think he has done a great job

in florida. he's done this thing where he gives teachers a pay raise. they need more money to get more teachers because of a shortage. but because of school, he is also for school choice. so, that run down school in a rundown city is not going to run down the student. they are going to say send me to that school. get my $8,000 to $12,000, send that with me to get me an equal opportunity regardless of my background. host: brian, you have written several books. you've written about thomas jefferson, andrew jackson, george washington. now, you have written about teddy roosevelt. what are you writing about next? guest: i'm going to take a break. maybe have something -- add something to the paperback for this book. i'm always doing theories. what made america great, this is a special on fox nation. if you want to get a sense of the book and their relationship,

if anybody wants the book autographed personalize, go to my local bookstore and i will get it out to you for the holidays. host: are you going to do a tour around the country? guest: i will do it up to christmas and for a little bit after. today, i will be in montgomery. i hope to see everybody there at 2:00 p.m. local time. host: montgomery alabama -- montgomery, alabama? guest: montgomery, alabama. right now, i am in hartsville and i will be heading there today. i'll see people in st. louis, dallas, at the bush library. i look forward to taking everybody's questions and having a chance to talk to them. i don't love being away from my family but i love meeting new people. i hope to see you out there. host: we would like to thank brian kilmeade, author and fox news host who was on here this morning to talk about his new book, teddy and booker t, how

two american icons blazed america's past for racial economy. they keep. guest: thank you. i truly appreciate it. host: coming up next, we will talk to chris lehmann about campaign 2024 and the news of the day. stick with us. we will be right back. ♪ >> monday, a discussion on e state of the u.s. housing and finance system with federal housing and finance agency rector sandra thompson. watch the discussant live, hosted by the bipartisan policy center, starting at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span, c-span >> as part of our newest case,

we are asking you, what do you think shaped america? >> the book that i think shaped america was by william faulkner. >> to kill a mockingbird by harper lee. >> just go to our website, c-span.org. select record video. be sure to watch live every monday at 9:00 eastern on c-span. >> making it easy for you to listen to all of c-span's podcasts in one place that you can discover new authors and ideas. we are making it more convenient by discussing history, current events and culture.

listen to c-span's broadcast fee -- broadcast feed on the free c-span now mobile video app or wherever you get your podcast. >> if you never miss any of c-span's coverage, you can find it online. videos feature markers that guide you to interesting highlights. these point of interest markers appear on your screen. this timeline makes it easy to get an idea of what was debated in washington. school through. monday, a three-judge panel for

e d.c. circuit judge and so is whether to reinstaag order againser president donald trump. live coverage begins at 9:30 a.m. on c-span2, c-span now and online at c-span.org. >> washington journal continues. host: we are back and we are joined by chris. he will be talking to us about campaign 2024 and the political news of the day. thank you for being here. let's start off with the topic of washington, d.c. and the government shutdown. where do we stand right now on whether the government will shut down or not in the next few months? guest: mike johnson was able to

swing a deal, largely with the democratic majority or minority in congress to continue to delay an ultimate call on funding the government. it is a staggered approach, which is a novelty and a all-too-familiar conflict. there is another that expires in february and on the part of johnson and house gop, this will buy them enough time to institute the kind of steep cuts that they have continued to try to get approved during the past. at least two. the interesting thing about this shutdown deal is that it is remarkably similar to the one that mccarthy struck in october

or september and then last his speakership over it in october. i think normal people, america is wondering. you got rid of the last speaker for what exactly? you have potentially the same deal on the table with some more promises from a more conservative speaker who is more closely aligned with the hard right action. whether they are able to get deals done in february that will continue to fund the government, i think it will look exceptionally bad if the gop funds the plug with all kinds of distractions. there will be a lot of pressure to get a deal done, but the

political question becomes, what happens to mike johnson if he cuts another deal with democrats? that will not sit well with the people who got rid of kevin mccarthy a few months ago. host: so the way out would be passing these spending bills. do they really have a legitimate chance of passing spending bills that the house conservatives want through the democratic-controlled senate and the democratic-controlled white house? guest: they have not done it so far, have they? i think experience and the whole way government is structured is supposed to promote it. but the house wyndham clark is hates compromise. they do not pay a political price either.

again, a kind of normal political situation. if you are met great -- matt gaetz and you are pounding the table, demanding -- she did not support -- support mccarthy's ousting, but if you are taking a scorched earth policy and the government shuts down, you pay a price. we have these deeply ideological people on the right who do not pay a political price and what is in a nihilistic host: view. it has just been pushed back into 2024. does it make it harder or easier to make deals on the spending bills or on a government shutdown? guest: the short answer is yes. [laughter]

the pressure is greater to get a deal done because it will look bad for the non-freedom caucus republicans who are in purple districts to get reelected and to say, i'm trying to represent you so there is that level of pressure. there is the pressure of mike johnson keeping a very factious gop majority together. that is why even the is holding deals that we are seeing have largely been done to the benefit of the democrats. the democrats do not like being accused of shutting the government down, so they go along with deals that do not institute the cuts that they want. the real question comes in january and february when they

are going for deep cuts. how or whether mike johnson is able to navigate that. even if it does get to the house, you have a democratic senate and a white house that will not go for essential government services. flip a coin. host: speaking of campaign 2024, do we know if voters care on whether the government shuts down? if it is january or february, they do not vote until november. is this an issue for anyone? guest: i think we have experience. the republicans paid a heavy price at the ballot box. there have been shorter shutdowns.

there was one in 2018. that election did not go well. republicans are very mindful of the fact that going into an election cycle, when the traditional move of the incumbent is to say, look at all these great things i have done for you. what you are saying is, i stopped the fda from licensing drugs. that is not going to play well, especially in general elections. there is a narrowing group of swing voters that are in the center but they want to hear that government is doing stuff and not throwing tantrums in congress. there is a political price and a general election for people who are not in these districts. host: most of the conversation

around the government shutting down revolves around the house. obviously they have a role, but we do not hear much talk of this coming out of the senate. guest: they are in charge of the purse strings, so that is why every time we get a reset, it goes back to the house and it feels like groundhog day. they are trying the same stunts over and over again and that is why it is always the house at the center of the controversy, when it starts, but a deal does have to go through the senate. joe biden is up for reelection as well and he is not going to go to the general voter anxiety, i caved into the republicans. that is not how democrats run or win elections. host: mitch mcconnell has been

saying this. he said he does not want to shut the government down. do you agree with him? guest: whatever else he is saying, mitch mcconnell is laser focused on winning elections and keeping the republican majority. that is a very clear sign that republicans know, especially him. money is, statewide elections. they cannot leave with the message of, we are not -- they are doing nothing for you. host: we are going to open up our normal lines for this. republic -- democrats can call in at (202) 748-8000. republicans can call (202) 748-8001. independent line is (202) 748-8002.

you can always text us at (202) 748-8003. and we are always reading on social media. now, in the deal to keep the government open last time, there was no money for ukraine and there was no money -- do receipt is becoming an election issue? do you see this as the american government not giving any extra money to israel or to ukraine? is it becoming an election issue? guest: i think there is internal pressure to get those deals moved forward. joe biden had an op-ed in the washington post making the case for ukraine and israel in the

gaza war and what is interesting is, it is not entirely clear how it will play out. right now the democratic party is very divided because of the intensity with which israel is conducting campaigns. on the republican side, there is a lot of dissension over the group in the party that is kind of ok with vladimir putin doing what he wants. host: do you think this issue will come up again in january and february? or in the conversation around keeping the government open? guest: i think it will come up.

the february deadline is the one that concerns these packages, these military packages. it will definitely be a debate watch. military interests loom very large, so there will be a lot of lobbying and i think there will be a big push to get those packages through. host: let's start with colleen calling from minnesota on the republican line. good morning. caller: hello. i am not from minnesota, but that's ok. what is the problem with america today? they are not impressing their funders. they remain tucked away. a civilization is an advanced society but we are not there. people exist with ready-made

friends, family, networks, bank accounts. that is our social security. people are supposed to exist with national security. yet we continue to waste away with the sting of poverty and foreign interests. the total picture with poor planning and underdevelopment. the country will be enabled. the switching ideology will enable us to make possible financial reasoning and action that is necessary and so desperately needed. we need a new planet. we are a big building code violation in every way. host: do you have a question for

our guest? caller: yes. i'm coming to it. host: you have to be real quick or we have to move on. caller: ok. so, we are a big code violation and every way, including economy, economics and health care, environmental care, etc. do you think that we need a better solution, a solution that they are not wanting to answer us with? i guess the question is, why are they not giving us what we need, when we are so clear and simple? my community group came up with the answer of social security wealth funds and the mass production of social security public works legislation. for every man, woman, child,

deceased person, employer entity and federated and on federated spaces everywhere. that is so easy to understand. host: your answer? guest: this is a good question as to why the government is not prioritizing essential needs of our citizens and what they could be doing better and more extensively. to hark back to what i said earlier about gaza and ukraine issue, there is a lot of money in our politics and it represents a lot of interests that run counter to general welfare. we have seen the climate change emergency, we continue to see it

in failures to keep student debt relief going and threats to social security and basic income support. i think structurally, the challenge is to restrain the influence of money in politics. that is where you have to begin. you have to go to the basic root of the problem and i think in my perfect world, we are going to challenge and meet the power of money with the power of votes and organized grassroots. it is a very broad question, but

thank you. host: rx caller from silver spring, maryland on the independent line. caller: thank you for your work. it is critical in these times. my question is, there are more hispanics and blacks gravitating towards the republican party, specifically trump because the party itself is a mess. he really do not know what they stand for. but the gravitational pull seems to be trump. can you answer? thank you. have a good day. guest: thank you. and i am also from silver spring. there was a striking upset of

black and hispanic support for trump in the 2020 election. it suggests that kind of holding in some ways. it is a bit hard -- it is hard in general to explain the trump phenomenon. i think, in part, it is due to a failure of democrats to deliver on key issues such as things like student debt relief, immigration reform and across the board, i think trump appeals to people frustrated with the status quo. there are things to be frustrated with and as i was saying earlier, the -- until the left populist movement figures

out, it is a serious cause for concern. the other thing i want to mention is the trump movement and the evangelical movement are ever more closely aligned. the evangelical supplied about three quarters -- the evangelical vote went for trump in the 2020 cycle. they are within the communities with spiritual leaders behind trump. host: before we start talking about the republican side of campaign 2024, democratic joe biden had a post of -- one of the things he did is a two state

solution for israel and the palestinians. talk about that op-ed. why do you think president biden felt the need to come out in a written op-ed, and what other news did he make? guest: well, the need, as the white house perceives it goes back to but we were saying earlier about funding for ukraine and the war in gaza. they are very eager to get both of these eight packages through congress and public opinion, particularly in the gaza war want -- particularly in the gaza border, they want a cease-fire. others do not. he is trying to galvanize public opinion behind at least one

popular that is subject to a lot of scrutiny. the two state solution is something that i do not think most israelis and palestinians feel is an option anymore. i think biden is arguing for a reset, and i think it is vanishingly small at the moment. palestinians would demand participation in a single state and israelis are loathe to give up power to palestinians. biden sort of made a renewed pitch for the framework of the abraham accords that he inherited and advanced from the trump administration, which is a

manifest failure. but the abraham accords were essentially an effort for a trade block to ignore the occupation in the conflict and we are now seeing what has come of that strategy. that, the paradox of the argument as i read it in the op-ed is that he is kind of wishing for it to be the 1990's again. that is not going to happen. host: is president biden facing a split in the party on how the u.s. deals with israel and palestine? guest: well, first question, yes.

there is a great deal of american supporting a cease-fire, but many democratic voters support a cease-fire. that has made a significant rift in the party. your goal is to unite the party. that is why you saw this very long op-ed in the washington post today. as for the c's ability -- i'm sorry, i forgot the second question. technically, he is facing challenges. and you know, robert canadian junior so i think it has been an

ongoing debate about the president's age and how voters perceive how he would perform in a second term. i think the gaza war compounds that. i think it will be a lot of continued discussions. political parties are kind of like corporations and they are not going -- there is going to be a lot of intrigue in the upper echelon. host: we saw that approach at the dnc headquarters this week. it apparently did not go well for anyone. do you see this split in the democratic party affecting the

election chances when it comes to both the president and senate house races? guest: absolutely, especially in national races. a lot of people -- it has been glib, but they have raised the analogy between biden and lyndon johnson in 1968. you have a president where the economy is doing well under him and on paper, it looks like it should be good conditions for his reelection, but he has gone all in on an unpopular war. it happened in 1968 was that there were protests and mccarthy did well in the new hampshire primary. it prompted lbj to announce he would not be running for reelection.

history does not repeat itself, but it often rhymes. it is something that again, party strategists and leaders will be watching very closely. there is apparently a humanitarian pause that was reported by the washington post last night and then it was walked back. but there is a deal in the works to get some of the hostages released and to have a short-term cause. host: the news is ongoing. let's talk to jerry from new jersey on the democratic line. good morning. caller: good morning.

i have several concerns. i am a registered democrat and the concerns i have is that one, i think the media is making some big mistakes. they are trying desperately to take israel down. you can see it. it is obvious. they want to take down israel. thank god that israel is not chomping at the bit and taking that threat. they are moving forward and doing what they need to do to defend their people. the democrats -- biden is trying to walk a fine line but it is failing. the other thing i have to say is , they are talking about a democracy. we are supposed to be a democracy and biden has people running against him. kennedy is running against him. instead of debating -- you may

talk about the republicans and how bad they are doing, but at least they had their debates. biden is basically -- i think you will be out of the election, but he thinks he is walking right into the election but i think he will eventually be pulled out. i think that is why the other guys are going to be moving up a bit. but the other thing i will say is, it is obvious and we are seeing it, that the judicial system, the people going after trump -- this is not good. it is obvious. i -- my question to you, how did he get the document, as a senator? can somebody answer that question?

a senator cannot pull money -- cannot pull documents out. the question -- guest: good question. i'm not sure what documents the caller is referring to. there have been complaints about vice presidential papers that biden had in his possession. it is my understanding that those papers have been submitted and subject for review. i'm sorry. i am not up to speed on whatever these papers might be. host: let's talk to paul calling from lafayette, louisiana on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning, chris. earlier, you said that certain members of the republican party will let vladimir putin do

whatever he wants to do. please share with the viewers what you based that statement on, please? as a member of the republican party, all i want to see is accountability that the money is well spent and not the european community pays their fair share in funding the war. guest: absolutely. one thing on my mind was ramaswamy, a presidential candidate in the last debate who aggressively called president zelenskyy of ukraine a nazi and said that he was fed up with -- human nikki haley and ron desantis.

so, donald trump also has a long history of friendliness towards vladimir putin. he said, had he been in power, he would have brokered some sort of deal but i am skeptical about that. i'm pretty sure it would have gone in his favor. i do think most republican leaders are supportive of ukraine aid package but there are governments within the party not disturbed by the overreach. host: speaking on the republican side, former president trump has

not yet joined a republican debate and it does not seem to be affecting the republican polls at all right now. do you think former president trump will ever join these other people running for the republican nomination for debate? and if he does not, will it matter? guest: that was another thing i was going to say to the caller earlier. encounters with his opponents, there is a missing percent -- person, and that is the runaway front-runner, donald trump. he is 30 points ahead of his nearest challenger, which at this point is nikki haley. he does not seem to be paying any price, politically, for that

decision. as long as the trend holds, i do not think you will take part in any of the republican debates. he would have what kind of happened on the democratic side at one point, all of the outlined candidates allowed. nikki haley is the front runner and will continue to gain in the polls. she might be even with trump at one point. but that is a long shot scenario, from where i sit. host: does a debate even matter to voters anymore? guest: that is a good question. we have this mythology about presidential debates, going back to the kennedy and send debate

with people in the media, people like you and me made the call. i do not think -- by the time it happened, a lot of others had already made up their mind. swing voters are increasingly rare. we live in an age of negative partisanship. even people who called themselves independent. i think in order for debates to be more decisive, there has to be a bigger spaying in the electorate. it is not a straight yes or no answer. i think debates could be really important. right now, it is easy to

envision a scenario where they are both nominated again. in that scenario, we can make the case that bates would be really important. host: i also have a question. do endorsements matter to american motors? i believe the iowa governor endorsed ron desantis. did any of these endorsements matter? guest: i think desantis is hoping it will mean a lot. no longer on the democratic side. so, what the desantis campaign is making is that it will

somehow create a lot of momentum where even if he finishes and strong second, he will be able to build. nikki haley has overtaken desantis and virtually all of the polls. i think they are a kind of currency from a different political age. you do not have -- because of the conditions, you do not have the broad consensus of clinical leaders. they are all kind of demonized as ruthless liberals or blackhead republicans. they will speak to the people who will elect them but not to swing voters. host: let's talk to sidney,

calling from texas on the independent . caller: i remember trump saying he has done more for black americans than anyone else. i do not know how he comes to that because when obama created 8 million more jobs than trump did and then trump is saying ukraine would not have been attacked, israel would not have been attacked if he was in office. i remember in 2018, in syria, our soldiers were attacked by russian soldiers. two weeks later, trump was on the phone with vladimir putin and they asked him, did he ever ask if vladimir putin had

boundaries and why did he attack our soldiers in syria? he said he never asked him. i cannot understand why a president would never ask vladimir putin if he attacked our soldiers. guest: that is an interesting point. to your other point, the claim about having done so much for the african-american community and the israel gaza war and the ukraine invasion. the thing that a lot of people, including the media misunderstand about donald trump is that these are untruths. i assume he is lying for some sort of strategic political

gain, but donald trump is a former parishioner who wrote the power of positive thinking and he is an ardent -- it is probably his most firmly held spiritual believe is the power of positive thinking. you just continue to repeat mantras of success to yourself into -- until you achieve great news. they are untruths, but they are things that donald trump leaves about himself. a lot of his appeal to the american electorate is rooted in that same sort of gospel of success. in my view, it is very dangerous but it is definitely integral to how he views the world. host: rick is calling from new york.

caller: it is named for the stream. thank you for having me on and thank you for c-span. it is wonderful to hear both sides of people's opinions. it is the only program that i can find that does such a thing. it is wonderful. i am not into conspiracy theories. i do not believe 99% of things i hear on the web, but having said that, looking at who the two people who are really benefiting from the israeli war most, one of them is vladimir putin and the other is benjamin netanyahu. i cannot believe that they have no intelligence that this was going to happen. it took a lot of planning, a lot of movement, a lot of moving people. benjamin netanyahu was at war

with his own people before that but now he will be in power for 10 to 20 years because of this word. he keeps saying, this will be a long war. he keeps stressing that and that is a benefit to him. i would love to give your -- i would love to get your comments on that. that is all i have to say. guest: that is an interesting point. i do not subscribe to a lot of conspiracy theories, but benjamin netanyahu does understand that waging this war is something that he benefits from. there were corruption charges and he was indicted in court previously. there was a generous overhaul of the system and parts.

it went very badly. right now, his full support in israel is incredibly low. i do not think it is improper to raise the genuine concern that this war is how he is insuring his political survival. that is something to keep in mind. once there is a long-term cease-fire -- he will face political reckoning. it is a grim talk, but you are right to raise it. host: let's shift to more political news. one of the things that happened we was the supreme court adopted a conduct code, a former ethics code.

i wanted to actually read -- actually read about the new code of ethics and get you to respond to it. they have the equivalent of rules derived, including statutory provisions, ethics advisory, committee of ces of conduct. it has led to the misunderstanding that the justices of this court, like all other regard themselves as uncted by any ethics. we are issuing this with principles that we have long regarded as governing our conduct. why did the court feel like they needed to make a public

statement saying that they are adopting a code of ethics? does this code of ethics do any good? who enforces it? guest: i would like to answer your second russian first. nobody enforces it. it is an honor system. it is noteworthy that in the actual code, which was largely adopted from rules of conduct, the term has been changed to should about 53 times. you are diluting something that is a firm directive. it is as it should. i think the question as to why, the two word answer is harlan crow, the donor who bought

properties for clarence thomas and fun -- -- funded lavish getaways. that is the tip of the iceberg in terms of corruption in the supreme court. the ideological recruiting arm of the supreme court and also funded by a mega billionaire whose identity was kept secret until recently. it is also worth noting that they were issuing subpoenas. that is the other intended audience is dick durbin. but they have not done anything. my colleague at bristol went

through the code and spelled it out that this is utterly nonbinding. it is a set of glowing generalizations. they carefully craft everything with an eye towards the president. i mentioned the citizens united earlier and we were talking about politics. a concurring opinion in that decision flat out says, it is just not possible that money and interests would be controlling our politics. the world in which harlan operate is the one that has been created. for him to come forward and say,

we are going to be well-behaved now, do not bother to look too closely at what we are doing -- it is laughable under these conditions. host: he actually came out to the floor to talk about the supreme court code of conduct. here is a portion of what he said on the senate floor on monday. >> at a glance, it is similar to the standards that apply to all other lower court federal judges. the code of conduct for several important cannons, including avoiding impropriety and the appearance of impropriety. all of these are important steps. they fall short of what we could and should expect. they issue a supreme court code of conduct.

for the most part, these rules and principles are not rule -- are not new. they were plainly inadequate. it does not appear to contain any -- it also leads a wide range of decisions up to the discretion of individual justices coming putting decisions sitting on cases. i am reviewing the code of conduct. it marks a step in the right direction. it may fall short of the ethical standard others are held to. if it falls short, the american people will have the last word and the integrity of the court is an issue.

this released today is long overdue and begins a dialogue to restore the integrity of the court. host: it does not sound like he is in dues about the code of ethics from the supreme court. do you think there will be subpoenas coming? guest: i do not know. he has already stepped back in the face of republican resistance. it was a bit surprising that durbin took this step. i am not going to hold my breath for him being subpoenaed, but that is a dictionary definition. it is a step in the right direction, but it is nowhere

near added. i would even dispute it. i think it is a meaningless, symbolic gesture. host: let's talk to zach calling from baltimore, maryland on the independent . caller: good morning. i think this whole supreme court code of ethics thing is kind of nonsense. a great mechanism would be to be accountable to voters. the whole institution, among many other reasons used by democrats to say, sorry we could not do anything for you, but you have to keep voting for us where the republicans will put more justices on the court. i think it would be really great if the democrats could keep

going with white dick durbin is saying and say come this is an illegitimate institution. guest: i think there was talk after trump appointed amy barrett at the end of his term about having -- he tried and failed, i should note, but he ultimately got the composition of the court that he wanted. i think it is a good idea to rein in jurisdiction. i think the judicial review has turned it into super legislature that is noted. i thought it was strange when he said it in his remarks that the american people will ultimately

have the last word and i was like, how? this is the most undemocratic petition in our government. we are seeing now but it would take for someone to be compelled to resign. there is a lot of room for reform. i think it should be towards creating a more democratic model of justice across the board. host: calling from chicago on the democratic line. caller: good morning. host: go ahead, edna. caller: ok. i have one that i would put on all of your viewers. please, trump's book will

explain what is happening. it was so good that i read it twice because this man is a holy terror to this country. do not vote for a man who wants to turn this country into russia. we have been free all our lives. vote for somebody who will keep this country free. good morning, america. please, listen. guest: thank you. and i'm sure that mary trump thanks you. i do think that mainstream political media does have this reflex to normalize what trump is doing. he announced at a campaign rally that his political enemies

deserve to be eliminated and has also furthered a really draconian immigration crackdown that is basically terms for internment camps. dramatically reshaping federal workforce and his ideological image. it is more than just trump. but he does represent an ongoing threat. as the press critic says, we should be focusing on the state of the election. host: richard, good morning. caller: good morning, gentlemen.

this is what i would like to say with all of the code of ethics. i read the act. if i'm not mistaken, it allows for different agencies to make their own rules and regulations. if that is accurate, i think that needs to be removed. it leads to corruption. it leads to what we are seeing now. what are your thoughts on that? guest: i'm not familiar with that statute, but i think that principle is quite sound. there is a conflict of interest. we have seen it throughout.

i mentioned citizens united and others came up in the reagan justice department. it has written opinions and creating acute conditions throughout the country. that is a real issue for our democracy and it not get reported adequately. i do think that is another form of corruption on the codes of conduct. unless they have some serious consequences, they are purely symbolic.

host: what -- where should we be watching? what are you looking for? what should we be looking for? guest: i looking for the thanksgiving holiday. host: what should we be looking at? guest: i think we should be looking at ongoing nations in the house pointing towards some resolution that will be coming back from the holidays from the mainline of action. as i said earlier, i think we should be watching closely how the israel gaza war plays out, particularly on the democratic side of our politics. we should always be alert to donald trump.

he is a force for acute chaos. he is a genuine hazard to our democratic way of life. host: thank you, chris, for coming on with us this morning and talking us through camping 2024 and the political news of the day. thank you so much. we would like to thank all of our viewers, all of our social media viewers for another great washington journal. continue to stay safe out there and continue to wash her hands. everyone have a great sunday. have a great sunday, everyone.