♪ host: monday, november 20. we begin this week reflecting on the life of former first lady rosalynn carter who died sunday at the age of 96. she was married to former president jimmy carter for 77 years. we encourage you to call us now

to talk about her life, her legacy and your memories of rosalynn carter, who revolutionized the role of the u.s. president's spouse. if you are in the easter or -- eastern or central time zones, we want you to call us at (202)-748-8000. in the mountain or pacific time zones, call us at (202)-748-8001 . you can also send us a text message at (202)-748-8003. please include your name and where you live. you can find us on facebook. and on x and instagram. let's start this morning hearing former first lady rosalynn carter in her own words. this is her, speaking in 2013, an interview on her time at the white house. [video clip]

>> was it possible to have a private life in the white house and did the white house feel like home? >> it felt like home to us almost immediately because we've all been campaigning. were together.aigning and we we had meals together. we had to make a rule that if you would not be there for a meal, you had to check off a little thing so we would know who would be there. i spent almost every day, most of the time i was there. i took my kids to violin classes. as i said earlier, jim and i

would jog. if it was raining, we would go to the bowling alley. we had a fairly good family life. i think it was precious to us, because we had been traveling for two years. >> does the white house affect a marriage? >> i think it could. it didn't affect ours. we have been partners working together for so long. but i could see, if the first lady was not particularly interested in the different issues, it would be very difficult. jimmy could talk to me about all of them. it happened that way more and

more because some of the earlier first ladies were very active but then there were others who were not. >> when you look back at previous first ladies before you serve, who did you admire, who did you emulate? who did you learn from? >> the closest person i had, the only first lady i had knowledge of was lady bird. when she and johnson came to helping with the highway beautification project. the main thing she told me, if i would ask her something, she would say enjoy it because it is not going to last long. you won't be there forever. she did help a lot. and i think everyone looks back and it was quite wonderful. one person that had a big impact on my life was margaret mead.

when i decided i was going to work on mental health issues, she came to georgia to see me. we developed this wonderful relationship, and she would give me advice. i went to canada for a mental health meeting. she was just -- to meet her -- i would have liked to have met eleanor roosevelt. >> your husband in 2010 published his white house diaries. did you keep a diary or journal during your white house years? >> i kept them at different times. i didn't do much in the beginning then i started having my secretary put spaces between events and i had a desk in my bedroom and i left it there and i would talk about what was happening and who was going to be there and i would start writing notes about what happened in that event and i did that pretty regularly.

i had a really good diary about camp david. i kept those all the time. >> are those public? >> no. host: that was former first lady rosalynn carter, speaking in a 2013 interview. she died on sunday at the age of 96. we want to hear from you today, your memories of rosalynn carter , or your thoughts about the role of the first lady. your thoughts about some of the issues she championed such as mental health, immunizations for children, equal rights for women , and her work in the carter center. i'll remind you of the phone lines. in the eastern or central regions, (202)-748-8000. if you're in the mountain or pacific time zones, you can call us at (202)-748-8001.

you can also send us a text message at (202)-748-8003. we are going to go to some of the news coverage about rosalynn carter's passing. i will start with the atlanta journal constitution. i want to read a little bit of an excerpt from the obituary. i'm going to scroll down a little bit. it says rosalynn carter, 96, died sunday. she will be buried in front of the modest ranch house in plains. they built it in 1961 and always returned to it, and never really left say for their stents in what jimmy carter termed quote, government housing. it was the first home they ever owned after jimmy's military career had taken them all over the country.

again, rosalynn carter died on sunday. i will read now, this is the statement that president joe biden and first lady jill biden released sunday night. it reads,st ly rosalynn carter walked her own path, inspiring the nation and the d alg the way. throughout her incredible life as first l georgia and the first lady of the united states, rosalynn did so to address many of society's st needs. she was a champion for equal rights and oniti for women and girls, a netiquette fortal alth and wellness for every person and a supporter of the often unseen a uncompensated care giv our children, agingoved ones and people with disabilities. above all, the deep love shared between jimmy and rosalynn carter is the definition of partnership and their humble

lead is e definition of patriotism. she lived her life by her faith. time and time again during the mo than four decades of friendship, through rigorous mpaigns, the darkness of deep and profound loss, we always felt the hope, warmth an optimism of rosalynn carter. she will always be in our hearts . of behalf of ateful nation, we send our love to president carter, the entire carter family and the countless people across our nation in the world whose lives are bett, brighter because of the life and legacy of rosalynn carter. may god bless our dear friend. may god bless a great american. let's go to the phone lines. we will start with tom in bennington, vermont. go ahead. caller: thank you for taking my call. i am 80 years old. in the 1960's, i saw her speak

in stony brook, new york and she was just fantastic. what a wonderful presidential couple they were. jimmy was fabulous when he got zinged by ronald reagan on that election, when he beat when o'regan and bush senior held back -- jimmy also said recently, a couple years ago, that the best communication in the country, the safest is the post office. now look what happened to the post office. thank you for c-span. host: thanks tom. let's hear from mac in california. what are your thoughts? caller: good morning c-span. love the program. i've been listening since 1979.

i'm 70 years old. as our nation mourns mrs. carter , and we know jimmy won't be far behind. two lovely american farmers. i'm a long way from them in northern california but i followed their careers in the previous gentleman was right. they got a bad hand when superstar reagan showed up on the political scene, but jimmy and rosalynn carter, their years of monitoring elections all over the world, their habitat for humanity work, to help people get homes. i have given money to the carter institute, where they raise money to help people. they are the salt of the earth and those young americans that

don't know the history of the carter's, please look it up. these are some of the best post-presidential, most highly respected united states american citizens. i grieve for the family and our nation is stronger because they served it. thank you. host: appreciate your call this morning. before we get to a few more calls, i want to show you, this is this morning's wall street journal. they have a picture, this is rosalynn carter with her husband, jimmy carter. at the time, he was a georgia state senator. this picture was from 1966. jimmy and rosalynn carter. i also want to bring up, there is more social media posts. let's start with donald and melania trump. the former president, donald

trump, he and his wife millennia did mourn the loss of rosalynn carter. he posted on his tthocial account,t ys in part, millennia and i jn all americans in mourning the loss of rosalynn carter. she was a devoted first lady, a great humanitaria ahampion for mental health and a beloved wife to her husband for 77 years. posterboy on x, a good mother, wife a wan. rest in peace. -- says she was an incredible won, married to an incredible man. their ngity was a blessing to humanity. they deserve our praise and none of the critici.

iss former president barack obama, a portion -- he says our thgh and prayers to jimmy and the entire carter family during this difficult time. let's go back to the phone lines now. as a reminder, eastern and central time zones, dial (202)-748-8000. mountain and pacific, (202)-748-8001. we are reflecting on the life of rosalynn carter this morning and welcome your thoughts and comments. next up we will go to newport, rhode island. mary is on the line. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i'm a little nervous, but i just

wanted to call in and say how much i admire the carter's and twice, i went down to plains georgia, to hear president carter and meet rosalynn carter. they are beautiful people, very welcoming, loving, friendly. it was an amazing moment. i admire her for her programs on mental health. she was such an advocate for people getting help, at a time when people were talking about it. just a lovely couple. someone who i will always appreciate. thank you for letting me call in and express my feelings. it was around this time of year, i went to plains, georgia.

it was in december, and they turned on the lights in the little town of plains, the christmas lights and it was so american and so beautiful. thank you to the carter's and rest in peace, rosalynn. host: thank you for your call. let's go to jeanette in charlotte, north carolina. go ahead and share with us. caller: yes. i did not vote for cotter -- carter in the two elections but i had always been open to watching both conventions and it was a few years after he had been in office and i found a library book on sale called first ladies. it was one of the most well-written books i have ever

read. i think not since eleanor roosevelt had a presidential wife been involved in the policies of that administration. what was great about the book was it went into the details behind the major situations and operations of the white house at the time, starting with her involvement and the whole families involvement in campaigning the first time. it was so interesting, when they had the middle east negotiations going on, to find support, and you got the background of the fights that went on behind the scenes and the victory between the east and west negotiations. i began to admire everything the

carter's were doing after the presidency. i think she has the right place in history that she should have, along with eleanor roosevelt. as being as invested in that presidential life and administrative life as well as eleanor roosevelt with her husband, fdr. host: thank you for your call this morning. jeanette mentioned rosalynn carter was credited with changing the role of the first lady in the white house, and that was met with some criticism at the time. i want to read an excerpt from the atlanta journal-constitution obituary. it says in 1978, times magazine proclaimed the once painfully shy girl, the second most powerful person in the country.

not everyone approved. critics attacked her for quote, telling jimmy what to do at a time in the country was still debating the need for the equal rights amendment. they bashed her for regularly attending cabinet meetings and national security council briefings. things no other first lady had ever done. and serving as an official u.s. envoy on a trip to latin america. even the new first couple's decision on inauguration day to disembark from their limousine and walked part of the way to the white house in below freezing temperatures wasn't universally hailed. what many americans found charming and a small town southern way, others, particularly washington elites, slammed as unsophisticated. it was a perception that would play the carter's throughout their four years in washington when everything from their alcohol policies, no liquor was served at the white house, only

wine, to their decision to send nine-year-old amy to public school, was run through the meter. that was from the atlantic chronicle constitution obituary for rosalynn carter who died on sunday at the age of 96. her husband, former president jimmy carter is still with us at age 99. the two were married for 77 years. we will go back to the phone lines. chris is calling from grass valley, california. go ahead. caller: thank you for taking my call. i was just a little boy when jimmy carter became president of the united states. i was a paperboy. his familiarity with me was through front page and going out of office in the iran hostage

crisis. but rosalynn, i remember seeing her on tv shows, being interviewed with her husband. i don't member who the hosts were of the talk shows but looking back on all of these years, there is the carter foundation and i came across it recently, they put forward democracy as a means to establishing peace. i just kind of looked back and it is the end of an era, and it strikes me that the carter's seem to have a place in a subtle manner in american history that is somewhat along the line from my generation, what pope john to and what his reign was like. another they had a rain like that but their influence and their role, and so much of what is being left behind for

american culture is, i think a significant -- as significant as what pope john two's brain has been for my generation and that was just the comment that i had in listening to what everyone was saying. and q for taking my call and have a nice day. -- thank you for taking my call and have a nice day. host: our next caller is calling from huntersville, north carolina. caller: good morning. i just think it is so sad that jimmy carter was so demonized by the republicans, ever since he left the presidency. he has just been a demonized president, at least amongst the republicans, like so many democratic leaders are. it just demonized and and try to drag their names down.

democrats didn't protect jimmy carter, they didn't pick up for him. i thought that was wrong. these people, these people ran on a platform of christianity back in the 1970's and he and his wife, so much better, lived the true christian values than these fake republicans, with their religion talk and their religion this and that. he was so much better, living up to those true values and there are a lot of people despite their demonizing efforts, that love and respect jimmy carter and rosalynn carter. and i am one of those. i feel like the passing of them

is the end of an era, but they were good people and god bless them. thank you for letting me speak. host: i want to bring up, this is the associated press. a lot more of the outpouring of tributes and memorials to former first lady rosalynn carter. i'm going to scroll down. let's start with former president george w. bush. he called carter a woman of dignity and strength quote, there was no better advocate of president carter and their partnerships at a wonderful example of loyalty and fidelity. she leaves behind an important legacy and her work to destigmatize mental health. we join our soup -- our fellow citizens in sending our condolences to president carter and their families. bush said in a statement with

former first lady laura bush, here is another one from u.s. senator jon ossoff of georgia who said carter will be remembered for her compassionate nature and passion for women's rights, human rights and mental health reform. quote, the state of georgia and the united states are better places because of rosalynn carter. i join all georgians and americans in morning her loss. may rosalynn carter's memory be a blessing. i will do one more for now, from vice president kamala harris. she said rosalynn carter redefined the role of first lady and lived a life of service -based compassion and moral leadership. quote, as a humanitarian, a public service -- in public service and a global leader, mrs. carter improve the lives of millions and inspired countless others to continue her legacy which will be a generate beacon

for generations -- which will be a beacon for generations to come. let's go to video from yesterday. this is president joe biden as he was going to meet air force one. he stopped to talk to reporters and react to the news of the passing of rosalynn carter. [video clip] >> i was on the phone with the family, i was there with my grandson and it was really an incredible family. it is one thing if you want to be present -- president. they did the same thing after they were president, not for money, but to help.

i talked to the families today. i was told that all the family is with jimmy carter. we would always joke -- he had integrity, he still does, and she did too. they were a happy family because they were together. host: that was president joe biden speaking as he went to embark on air force one. it was a little bit hard to hear, but a couple things he said in those comments to the media, number one, he said that

as rosalpa away, the entire family including the children and grandchildren were there with president carter to provide comfort. he also said that he often joked that president carter was the first person to endorse him when he ran senate. he talked about that partnership again, represented by 77 years of marriage between former president jimmy carter, first lady rosalynn carter died on sunday. let's go back to the phones now. nikki is in sync cloud, minnesota. what thought -- st. cloud, minnesota. what thoughts would you like to share? caller: good morning. it is a real tragedy to lose a first lady. it is a sad day of remembrance.

a moment of silence for her and for those who didn't make it to this time, because i'm so sad that she died because they were pro-lgbt and they were active in the community and they are such good people. compared to trump, he was a saint. thank you and have a good day. host: as we reach the half-hour point, we are going to go ahead and open up our phone lines for open forum. you can continue to call in with your remembrances or thoughts about former first lady rosalynn carter, but you can also call in for any topic, any political topic or news of the day.

we are now in open forum. democrats, your line is (202)-748-8000. republicans, (202)-748-8001. independents, (202)-748-8002. you can also send us a text message at (202)-748-8003. remember to include your name and where you live. we are on facebook and x and instagram. it is time for open forum. your thoughts on any political topics or news of the day, but of course you can continue to speak about rosalynn carter. stanley in massachusetts, what are your thoughts this morning? caller: my thoughts are with jimmy carter, who was the president who put us on the right track, that we have to take care of the world.

it was said that he caused problems but it was debunked. he was ahead of his time. and today, we have the orange sky in the morning and orange sky at night. a dangerous guy. that's sulfur dioxide. both acidic properties. taking down the oceans. oxygen levels are falling. the only thing that treats all of that back is to use sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide. host: we appreciate your call this morning. as we shift into open forums, i want to bring up, this is today's usa today front page.

of course on the front page, there is an article about former first lady rosalynn carter and her advocacy, particular when it comes to health. there is an article about food banks and how inflation is affecting food banks and nonprofits, but i want to talk about an article, a third article that is on today's new york times front page, and the headline says black voters more in play in 2024. it is a look at what issues, particularly our important -- particularly are important to black voters in the upcoming 2024 election. i will read an excerpt from this article. it says, a core part of the democratic coalition, black americans appears to be more in play than ever after recent polls show former president donald trump pulling support

from a shocking 22% of black voters in six key battleground states. the president joe biden won 92% of black support in 2020, a september yahoo! news poll found that only 66% of black voters would choose him if the 2024 election were held that month. the november 7 election results showed that black voters are still performing for democratic candidates and issues. black voters laid an important role in enshrining abortion rights in the ohio state constitution and in flipping the virginia house to democratic control while rejecting a black republican candidate for governor in kentucky earlier this month, demonstrate and their enduring electoral strength, even as questions emerge over the ski group's -- over this key group's support for biden. that is usa today, an interesting article about the

role of black voters as we look ahead to 2024. we are in open forum. we want to hear your thoughts about politics or the news of the day. let's go to san francisco, california. marylin, what are your thoughts? caller: i wanted to comment on rosalynn carter. like your other caller you had i think from grass valley, i am too young to remember the carter administration, but i would like to hear more about how she advocated for mental health, because i don't know if there was a reason, that she had it in her family or what you did specific we to advocate for it, but i do remember the reagan administration growing up and i know how he decimated mental health care by closing all of the facilities and when i was

growing up, that was the first time i ever started to see on house people on the streets, when reagan decided to close all of the mental care facilities. i would like to know what she did prior to his destruction of that system and i would just like to say one of the thing about first lady's in general. i want to say that we really should honor their service to our country. they are the unsung heroes. a lot of times, i don't care what their cause is, whether they are republican, they really do set aside their lives to be in the spotlight for four to eight years or whatever it is, and serve our country's needs, and i don't think that is mentioned enough, even with betty ford and what she did, post white house, starting the recovery movement. i think it needs to be talked about more. thank you. host: thank you.

let's go to goddess, calling from new haven, connecticut on the democrat line. caller: yes, excuse my voice, i have a bad cold, but i am so sorry for their loss. both of them were very good people and no one has mentioned the housing projects that they did, for people who couldn't afford a house. that is all i have to say. we need more people like the carter's. . i am sorry for their loss. that is all i have to say. host: our previous caller said she wanted to hear a little bit more about rosalynn carter's legacy when it came to advocating for mental health. i want to start by bringing up the carter center.

this is the nonprofit that the former first lady and former president started after they left the white house and of course there are a lot of tributes here. a lot of discussion about the different things they did. npr in their obituary about rosalynn carter, specifically addressed her work on mental health and i will read a portion of that. it says in the white house, carter's top priority was mental health. it was a passion she developed years earlier when she was campaigning across georgia and heard from people who had family members struggling with mental health. there were a few community-based mental health services in georgia at the time, especially for children and carter became concerned by the deficiencies in state resources which included hospitals and institutions that

were known for mistreating patients. as first lady of georgia, carter encouraged her husband to establish a governor's commission on mental health which outlined an influential plan to shift treatment from large institutions to community centers. there is a quote from a person who said she really began the effort in this country to modernize mental health care and the mental health care system that we have today in many ways reflects her 50 years of advocacy. carter was also an early advocate for reducing the stigma around mental illness and in speeches, often framed mental health care as a quote, basic human right. in 1980, president carter signed the mental health systems act which provided grants for community mental health clinics, one of many achievements credited at least in part to his wife's advocacy in the u.s. and

globally. that's a little bit more from npr about former first lady carter and her advocacy on mental health. we aren't open forum. you can talk about rosalynn carter or any other news of the day or political topic on your mind. democrats, (202)-748-8000. republicans, (202)-748-8001. independents, (202)-748-8002. let's hear from david in upstate, new york. independent line. what are your thoughts? caller: i was going to say, the polling don't mean nothing. joe biden is going to win. pay attention to the 13 keys of the presidency. that's all i've got to say. host: thanks david. selena is next in rochester, new york, democrat line. go ahead. caller: good morning.

i would like to have a few words about rosalynn carter. i respect her so much for being a woman and a lady. she seemed to have been married to a man who respected her rights as a woman and she was not hampered in any kind of way as long as she was thinking for the people. i'm not feeling sad that she has passed away because she really lived a wonderful life of service and being a leader. thank you. host: thank you. the previous caller mentioned the polls and said that democrats shouldn't worry about the polls. this is an article from politico. it was published just last night and it says five ways democrats are coping with bidens terrible polls.

i want to read the beginning of the article. it says, poll after poll has brought bad news for joe biden, what of the incumbent president is trailing his likely 2024 republican challenger, hitting a new low in approval or seeing the majority of democrats raise concerns about his age. the numbers should be disconcerting for the biting camp. despite the grim data, so far democrats are sticking with their man. rather than confronting just how bleak things look at the moment, any democrats are finding solace in a cycle of self soothing spin that explains away difficult political reality and says here are some of the rationalizations. the first one, biden was underestimated in 2022 -- 2020 too. many people like to point back

to the 2020 election as proof that biden can beat the odds. people doubted biden then and they turned out to be wrong. i will read a quote. the campaign can either build a campaign that is knee-jerk responsive to the same washington sources that were wrong in 2020 or they can put in the historic time and money they are right now, to mobilize their coalition to win a year from now. personally, i think acer certainty centered on voters, not washington is the right one, one pro biden source told politico playbook. that is some of the analysis. we know the polls have not been great for president biden but we also know there are a lot of democrats who say they are going to stick beside him. we are in open forum, we want to hear from you about the news of the day, to bring up some of those topics. let's take a look at this morning's new york times front

page. i like to go through all of the front pages. it is interesting to see how different media kind of breaks down what they think is important on the day. the new york times front page has a lot of ground. i will start with at the very top of the -- they get into both the war in ukraine as well as the war between israel and hamas that right now is in gaza and in gaza, over the weekend, 31 infants were evacuated from a hospital in gaza. i will read a little bit from the new york times. the latest on the war in gaza between israel and hamas. it says four days after -- but is really troops, the gaza's largest hospital has become a

quote, death zone. 31 premature babies in extremely precarious health were evacuated on sunday. emergency medical workers from the palestine red crescent society and the who, united nations agency transported the babies by ambulance from the hospital to the neonatal intensive care unit of a hospital in the city of -- about 25 miles away in southern gaza. that is the latest from the war in gaza. the new york times also does have a tribute to first lady rosalynn carter. but they also talk about the election in argentina, and why that is of news, because the new leader of argentina is considered a far right personality, somewhat similar to

former president trump. i will read just a little bit of that as well. it says argentina elect -- in three for far right. argentines chose how your melina -- javier melia, a far right leader who has drawn strong comparisons to donald trump, a large -- 53, an economist and former television personality, has burst onto the traditionally closed argentine political scene with a embrace of conspiracy theories and extreme proposals he says are needed to upend a broken economy and government. that is the latest on argentina

elections. that is the news of the day, that we are covering right now. we are in open forums. it is your chance to weigh in on any political topic that is on your mind. give us a call. democrats, (202)-748-8000. (202)-748-8001 republicans. independents, (202)-748-8002. you can also send us a text message, (202)-748-8003. or hit us up on our social media. facebook, twitter and instagram. we would love to hear your thoughts this monday morning, but we are also mourning the loss of former first lady rosalynn carter. here is her speaking during an event in 2010. [video clip] >> he ran for governor the first time and lost.

we got in late, the leading democratic candidate dropped out. this was 1966, a long time ago. so no one -- we can't just let him have it, so we got in, we didn't have long to campaign, but i got in the car and drove from one town to the next and passed out brochures and went on to the next town, a very disorganized campaign. 1963, the health center -- was passed and they were beginning to move people out of our central state hospital's, big institution, overcrowded, terrible conditions, into the community but there were no community mental health centers yet. i had so many people ask me, what will your husband do if he

is elected governor? they kept saying that and one day i was standing at the gate of a factory in atlanta, georgia for the shift change. that is a great place to be because a whole bunch of people coming in and a lot going out, passing out brochures and this woman came out and she was really small, elderly, and i said -- you could tell how tired she was from working all night. i said i hope when you get home, you can get some sleep and she said, i hope so too because -- but we have a mentally ill daughter and we struggle to pay for her care and my husband stays with her at night while i work and i stay with her in the daytime while he works. that haunted me. what was she going to find when she got home? worrying all day about if their

child was awake when she got home. i was thinking about whether she got any sleep. that time, i came to town, jimmy was going to be in that night and i told you it was a disorganized campaign. so i stayed, he didn't know i was there. it was a big rally close to the election. i got in the back of the room and he was shaking hands and i don't know whether you stand and receiving lines but it is a part of my life and he was talking to someone like this and reach for the next hand and he had my hand and i got in front of him and he said what are you doing here? i said i want to know what you are going to do when you're governor for people with mental illness. he said we are going to have the best program in the country i'm going to put you in charge of it. [laughter] he didn't put me in charge of it

because i didn't know anything about it, but when he was elected governor, i think it was only about a month before they established the governor's commission to improve service to mentally and emotionally handicapped and i worked on that for 40 years and we actually put community mental health centers in 123 communities but they were not comprehensive. some of them were offices in the center of town where people could go to find out where to get help. i was really proud of it. host: we are back.

"washington journal" again. that was former first lady rosalynn carter, speaking at an event in 2010. she died on sunday at the age of 96. you can call us now to either reflect on rosalynn carter's life or you can weigh in on any political topic or news of the day that is on your mind. we are in open forum. joyce is calling on the democrat line from silver spring, maryland. go ahead. caller: good morning and thank you so much for taking my call. this is my first call to c-span. i live in silver spring but i am a nurse by training and i had worked at the children's hospital in washington, d.c.. i came to washington, d.c. in 1978 when president carter and misses carter were in the white house. i recalled so many visits that they had made to the children's

hospital. at that time we were just learning about and beginning to treat and intervene for abused and neglected children, particularly children who were victims of child sexual abuse and it was pioneering work at that time and it caught the interest of mrs. carter. in her efforts toward advocating for children with mental health needs, it was a tremendous help and pioneer work, not only here in d.c. but throughout the country. it was several occasions when they visited the hospital and interacted with the staff. all of the children who had various physical injuries as well. they encouraged all of us as staff, young physicians and

nurses, and made our work so much more manageable in the area where we were developing protocol, ways of interviewing and talking with children, and from that point, to this day, i have spent my entire career focusing as an advocate on children with needs and children's issues. we had a department in the hospital for child health advocacy and so they spearheaded the visits and we were fortunate because we were in washington, d.c., to get the involvement of many individuals who were certainly -- but carter sticks out. she was quiet and a very thoughtful person and as she asked questions about the kinds of problems that we were seeing,

the kinds of developmental issues that the children had and how did we go about trying to gather information and providing support, not only to the children but to the parents as well, i would always speak very highly of her. host: we appreciate you calling in, being a first-time washington journal caller. you did great this morning, sharing your thoughts about the former first lady. we are going to go next to hyattsville, maryland. on the independent line, what is your comment this morning? i think we lost them. let's try katie in michigan, republican line. katie? caller: yes. host: go ahead with your comment.

caller: first off, i want to say -- number two, winter the democrats going to wake up to what is going on in our country? i have been a democrat for many years. but i sure am a republican now. after what we went through in the last year. host: all right. let's go to philadelphia, pennsylvania -- pennsylvania. miller is calling on the democrat line. you are on. caller: how are you doing? host: doing well.

caller: calling to let you know that i sell lumber. host: turn down your tv and keep going. caller: i just wanted to let you know, the carter's were pretty good for building houses and habitats. i used to haul lumber for them and i wanted you to know that they were everyday people. they were not bougie. they wouldn't let him cut lumber so much but she would be there with him and they be working together. host: appreciate those reflections on the carter's this

morning. let's hear from janice now in louisiana, independent line. go ahead. caller: hello. rosalynn and jimmy carter are wonderful examples. look out for the south american dictators and mike johnson is dangerous. he speaks one way to one group and another way to another group. he wants to be president and will do anything to get there. joe biden is good, the world respects him and vice president kamala harris is a strong woman. immigrants can be handled. with respect and care. we and putin should get out of ukraine. china is trying to help. he is a socialist, not a

communist. thank you. goodbye. host: all right. we are going to take a quick break. next up on "washington journal," kirk bado, editor of national journal's hotline political newsletter will be discussing campaign 2024 and key congressional races. later this morning, the cato institute's william ruger and jason sorens discuss the new report, "freedom in the 50 states: an index of personal and economic freedom." ♪ >> tonight, what's the conclusion of c-span series in partnership with the library of congress, books that shaped america. we will feature the words of cesar chavez, published in 2002. it's a collection of speeches and other writings by the labor leader and civil rights activist. the book accounts the history of the farm labor movement and

explain how chavez used nonviolent methods like marches and fasting to deliver his message for better pay and working conditions for migrant farmworkers. miriam powell, journalist and author of biography titled the pursuit -- the crusades of cesar chavez will join us on the program to discuss the book. watch books that shaped america featuring the words of cesar chavez, tonight, live at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span, c-span now, or online at c-span.org. also be sure to scan the qr code to listen to our companion podcast where you can learn more about the authors of the books >> since 1979 in partnership with the cable industry, c-span has provided complete coverage of the halls of congress. from house and senate floors to congressional hearings. party briefings and committee

hearings. c-span gives you a front row seat to how issues are debated and decided with no commentary, no interruptions and unfiltered. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. >> a healthy democracy doesn't just look like this, it looks like this. where americans can see democracy at work, our republic thrives. get informed straight from the source on c-span. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word and the nation's capital to wherever you are. the opinion that matters most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span powered by cable. >> washington journal continues. >> we are back with the washington journal. joining us now is the editor of

national journal's hotline political newsletter. good morning kirk. >> good to be here today. host: let's start, remind us what the hotline is and the role you play in the information and news ecosystem. guest: we launched in 1987, we've gone through a lot of different iterations. we started just tracking the presidential election but now we track races all over the ballot. we look at presidential polls, senate races, house races, governors and states races. we do that every morning. we do two newsletters, one at 9:00 a.m. and another at 11:40. while a lot of news outlets are just starting to get rolling on

their campaign coverage or just now getting some last-minute analysis in of the 2023 results, hotline does nothing but campaign results. every candidate, every fundraising disclosure we get it out in the inbox bright and early. host: you recently launched hotline, what it takes 2024. explain what this new feature is? >> that was a series of stories are correspondence did talking to campaign strategist at all levels. we did two stories for each, one looking at the democrats and one looking at the republicans and walked through the challenges and opportunities each party had going into 2024. we wanted to look really big picture right now to see what will be the biggest range of each party going in now. as we've seen this past month's here the democrats are really going to be relying on abortion

access focused messaging, republicans will be talking about the status of the economy heavily. we looked at through the lens of the top campaign strategists how they are going to deliver those messages and what challenges will be in their way as we are going to be in this completely very partisan, divided election coming up. >> we are talking with kirk of the national journal hotline. want to go ahead and let our listeners know what numbers to call if you have a question for kirk about the 2024 election or if you have thoughts about some of the candidates or races at hand. go ahead and start calling in now. democrats, 202-748-8000. republicans, 202-748-8001. independents, 202-748-8002. we want to get to those calls in

just a moment. before we get to 2024, the off year elections were just a couple of weeks ago. what were your big takeaways from election night and what do you think it might tell us about what to expect next fall? guest: because these are the off year elections and are state specific it's hard to extrapolate the overarching lessons here. let me extrapolate some big overarching lessons. it's a good night for democrats, kentucky governor andy beshear were soundly winning reelection, the protest against the protege of mitch mcconnell. bashir gave red state democrats the blueprint to run. the election is an update on that playbook. he leaned into a lot of messaging that president biden wants to utilize in 2024. investing in infrastructure,

competent response to crisis. he had won the most effective ads in the off your cycle of talking about defending abortion access rights. he had a testimony from a rape victim talking about if the republicans had their way she wouldn't be able to get the treatment she needed. relatedly in ohio estate the trumpcare rate by two points, ohio voters in the state constitution for the first time in history. this is another data point in the trend we've seen whenever abortion access is on the ballot, voters overwhelmingly support expanding access. francis is based out of ohio, she's been following along with that effort closely the last few years to enshrine abortion access rights in the state constitution. that result was a shot in the arm for ohio democrats who

haven't had a lot to cheer about. it's giving them hope that they can replicate that infrastructure going into next year when they have a tough senate race for sharad brown. there is a lot of momentum on the democrat side. it's not -- let's not completely overlook the recent republicans. in new york, republicans flipped a county executive seat in long island for the first time in 20 years largely running on the same message that flipped a lot of house races for republicans last year. in virginia democrats might've denied republican governor -- republican governor glenn youngkin the trifecta by winning back control of the state legislature. they now control the entire general assembly but republicans performed really well in the legislative district that biden only won by nine points or less. things will get a little bit

difficult for democrats and 2024. take these with a little grain of salt but there are a lot of encouraging signs for democrats going into 2024. >> before we get to phone lines i want to ask you what worked for democrats and what worked for republicans in this off year election because you said there were some bright spots for both parties. what was there playbook that was successful? guest: let's talk about the -- he ran on a crime focused message and very much a we need to handle immigration crisis going on in our country right now. this is a very similar playbook to house republicans in new york in 2022 and a blue state. people forget democrats perform really well last year and house

races. the areas that have lost their majority were blue states like new york and that's a very hyper localized message about crime about kathy hochul and about this bail reform bill that the state legislature passed that was widely unpopular to voters. that message really resonates. localizing the crime issue not so much on the defund the police message we saw in 2020 but making it tangible to voters that proved really potent for republicans. there will be a preview of what they will do in 2024. for democrats, defending abortion access, it's making sure they are the champions of a woman's right to choose and a woman's right to have access to that procedure. because time and again from this past election, ohio is another example that results in deep red

kansas. they have passed last year the defendant abortion access. kentucky saw similar results when they tried to restrict abortion access. it's the same playbook every time, making more so positioning yourself and the champion of abortion access right is an effective method for democrats. not just filling out their base, they might have more problems during the presidential year but also those independent voters or softer republicans to vote democrat. we might see that repeated a lot. >> let's get to the phone lines now. democrats, 202-748-8000. republicans 202-748-8001. independentd, -- independents, 202-748-8002. dean is calling from gilbert

seville new york, what's your question or comment dean. >> i have two comments i would like to make. first of all the presidential election, nikki haley if she would now release the vice presidential candidate that she would like to run with, named the democratic divorced tulsi gabbard. secondly i would like to throw out there that we should reinstitute the draft for every young person ages 18 or high school graduate should devote two years of government service to their government. not necessarily military, but i think we are the only country in the free world, one of the few

countries in the free world that does not have a mandatory government service. thanks for calling. >> thank you for the question. i don't have a ton of thoughts but i do think there should be more tradition of service in this country not just in the military but the government. i don't know if that's necessarily the solution but for nikki haley for vice president, i don't think it's necessarily on the table for her. she is playing to win now. right now anyone in the republican presidential field would want to be -- would want to be nikki haley. nikki haley has all the makings of being this trump challenger in chief and now we are seeing that play out right now. she's rising in the polls, desantis is going down. she's consolidating a lot of

support from the supporters of the candidates who have dropped out. tim scott started to give a little bit more attention and as we get closer and closer to the iowa caucus, it could maybe be a three-person race between trump, desantis, and nikki haley. if she has a strong performance in iowa and carries that into new hampshire where anybody can vote in that primary. that's the type of coalition nikki haley is going to need at that point. host: the caller mentioned tulsa gabbard as possibly a running mate for nikki haley. do you think tulsa gabbard could help any of these republicans solidify their support or reach independence or maybe off the democrats. >> i think tulsa gabbard is not necessarily -- there is not a

whole lot of democratic band with tulsa gabbard and i don't think that's the ticket of -- and i don't think that ticket will be moving a whole lot of voters right now. i think it might be early to speculate on her vp pick but i would not necessarily consider -- if i was doing a draft order a vice presidential picks for nikki haley i don't think tulsi gabbard would be on the draft board. >> matt in boulder, colorado. go ahead. >> regarding the 2020 2022 elections republicans continue to accuse democrats of having violated numerous election laws during the campaigns and voting while the democrats accuse republican of the same scale of election lawbreaking. both sides also see their opponents will repeatedly violate the law in order to win in 2024. the nonpartisan organization i work with has a solution to this

challenging situation. nationwide passage and enactment at all levels of government of what we call refuse or protection laws. it's like a sister to whistleblower protection laws. such would protect from firing another retributive punishment and contracted workers who refuse to follow superiors unlawful orders. at our facebook page describes, there's precedent for such laws, we've attracted attention from legislators and government staffers around the nation including most recently jamie raskin who exclaimed when he read one of our editorials this is great. so to find out more about our project, visit us at facebook.com. sworn to recuse -- refuse.

if the guest has any comment on this i would be interested to hear it. guest: i think what we saw in 2022 and 2020 was a real test of the infrastructure of our democracy from former president trump and his allies refusal to recognize the results to their efforts to undermine through any sort of political pressure on the appointees or the elected officials we saw the results for anybody in the republican party seemed to go -- choosing to go against president -- former president trump. any efforts to safeguard those institutions in the process and certifying the vote, they thought it worthwhile that needs to be taken serious. even outside of trump election

workers, people who are on the front lines are under so much pressure from not only the election deniers but also those trying to rebound from trying to do election under duress in the pandemic of 2020. a near impossible task where they were taking the train tracks trying to keep ahead of disaster and make sure our elections were on time. there is still a hangover effect from that, with a lot of experience poll workers, election workers and the people behind the scenes retiring or stepping away because of the pressure. their supply chain issues. you saw in mississippi this election earlier this month where they had to keep the polls open an extra hour because of delays and certain -- at certain polling locations.

this isn't a problem that's going away anytime soon even if trump for some reason is into the nominee or goes away, are election infrastructure suffered and is not going away anytime soon. we need to find a way to give them support. >> let's hear from aaron now in richmond, virginia calling on the democratic line. caller: good morning. i wanted to ask if he has any perspective on how the more progressive democratic candidates have seemed to performed better generally across-the-board and if there is any factor where in the democratic party within new york state and florida, if their focus on more conservative democrat races and establishment

democrats had any part to play in the general losses that were suffered there. guest: that's a great question about what makes a candidate elected in a competitive race because traditionally in some of the more swing states talking about florida and new york. it's more -- it's more conservative democrats or people friendly to the establishment they've looked to establish grade in florida and new york there might be more opportunity for progressive candidates. a blue or safe receipt doesn't necessarily mean more progressive. progressive democrats tend to do better in those races than florida which is a little bit more swinging if not leaning a little bit republican braided i'm interested in watching in this next election not just in state and local races but at the congressional level as well is

how some of these more progressive democrats even the ones in elected office now we've seen over the last few weeks a lot of pushback to the members of the progressive squad over comments over israel and the war in the middle east. they might get challenged a little bit from more centrist democrats. i will be interested to see if the party infrastructure comes into help they allowed some of those members. if in an open seat race because we have a lot of open house races there is now 20 seven house members who are not running for reelection or running for a different office, 18 democrats, nine republicans. i'll be interested to see what candidates emerge from those primaries and whether those are more centrist or progressive. >> we are speaking this morning with kirk, the editor of the

national journal hotline political newsletter. we are talking about campaign 2024 and the race for control of congress. we welcome you to call in with your question or comment. democrats, 202-748-8000. republicans, 202-748-8001. independents, 202-748-8002. before we go back to the phone lines i want to ask you a question we received on ask. writing to you do you use resources lik open secret for yo campaign information. how do you gather your information on a daily basis. >> talking a process question. we use that to get an idea of more donors of how much money spent in the race. including which candidate. one of the things -- one of the best tools we have that we are doing is actually the fec

website. there's a redesign a few years ago. the sec is a great resource if you want to track the money raised in these campaigns. you can make a profile on the sec and click off what campaigns you want to look at. you might want to keep track of how much donald trump is spending more joe biden's campaign is spending or even if i wanted to start tracking the senate race in montana. you can actually check a box and get an email in your inbox every time they interact and make a filing. every time there's correspondence between them. it is an awesome tool. also in the day today we use a lot of lexis-nexis to keep track of the changes in election law. they've a great tool there that does a great map of the state-by-state guide to track

legislation as it works through the kind of very bureaucratic and busy process on the state level but also the federal level. a lot of resources they have some of my favorite stats and statistics on retirements, fundraising, ad campaigns, we use that every day to keep track of this massive amount of data we get every single morning. >> you mentioned the amount of retirements we are seeing. i will show on the screen this is the casualty list of retiring members of both parties both in the senate and the house compiled by the house press gallery and what i noticed is when you look there are more democrats who are either retiring or a lot are seeking other offices, they are running for the senate for example or running for office is back in their home state it looks like

there are more republicans who are retiring, not necessarily speaking -- seeking another office. i wanted to ask you how much will ongoing tension and instability particular with the republican party upset the number of members that may be retiring and how could that affect republicans ability to hold onto their narrow majority in 2024. >> that's a great question -- question and that something we are looking at. i've house correspondent he talked about the transition republicans are facing right now from the chaos of october with the speakership battle and the multiple nominees for speaker to campaigns. it's consistent across the board when we talk to the strategist at the high levels from richard hudson to thompson, the

president of the congressional leadership super pac. they acknowledge this is just not good for governance right now. these last few months, of last few weeks of this unfolding drama playing out every single day from the house floor and outside the speaker's office is not good for voters. it looks like you guys cannot control your conference, trying to do the basics right now and the bar is so low and you are still tripping over it, that is not a message you want to voters right now. i think you've seen some house or publican members get real fed up with that after they elected mike johnson as speaker you saw three or four house republicans: a career including a granger who is one of the powerful more experienced and senior members of congress right now. i think it reflects the frustrations people have with being in the house whether it

struggling to get the most basic things done and because they have such a narrow majority it's only five seats, it elevates the powers of voices of those members who might not be very interested in governing and a little bit more interested in getting their name out. thinking of someone like matt gaetz who triggered the whole dismissal kevin mccarthy there. already the math doesn't really work out and house republicans favor. house or publican sold 18 seats in districts that president biden carried. and that on the reverse side of that there are five democrats in seats that former president trump carried. strategists are already predicting this will be a very narrow house fight. but already having to defend in those seats already it will be tough when you want to try and defend your majority.

add in these seats and it will be a real headache for republicans. the one saving grace right now is there are more open competitive seats on the democrats sides then republicans. those 18 i believe house or public -- house democrats retiring, seven were labeled as some level of competitive. i believe four of them are either -- or likely democrat. one open seat for represented of george santos who announced last week he would not run for reelection following a pretty tough ethics report about his conduct. open seats are always mucking up the math but that will be or keeping an eye on. host: let's go back to the phones. democrats 202-748-8000. republicans, 202-748-8001.

independents 202-748-8002. we will go to bessemer city, north carolina. mike is following -- is calling on the republican line. caller: i have a couple of points if you would allow me. you talk about the so-called moderate democrats like joe manchin and sharad brown. all of them coming around saying something like the immigration thing and we need to drill for more oil for us but they only do that stuff when it is election time. joe manchin is not seeking reelection because they've seen his voting record on these left-wing judges that the biden administration has put forward. we are going to take the seats. kyrsten sinema stood up to chuck schumer and now she is the demon in arizona. hopefully she stays into that.

mr. trump will be the nominee. nikki haley and krispy kreme christie are not going anywhere. as a running mate for him, it still to me in my opinion a lot of republicans is kristi noem. she would be a good vice president, not nikki haley because she has been in politics for too long. you hear about that meeting in san francisco, you heard obra door telling biden he's doing a great job on the border. everybody that can hear and see knows that our border is a chaotic mass. and everybody, they said we have to do something about immigration but it's only on the democratic side they bring it up. but when they get reelected they go back saying they won't mess with and none of that.

they always say the immigration system is broke. it is not. they need to just abide by the rules on the books, the asylum laws are a joke. 6 million, 7 million people. >> i'm get a let kirk respond to some of the points you made. guest: the border is a huge issue and huge liability for democrats now. you've seen the more vulnerable members on that message that there needs to be some sort of solution here, that the patchwork going on there immigrants and blue states. it is not a solution. the biden campaign as well and the white house acknowledged there needs to be more done on the border right now. i think this will be a continuing issue for democrats

as for trumps potential vice president pick i think kristi noem has been floated around a lot. the arizona senate candidate right now, the conference chair of the house republican conference chair. i think we are a little bit away caller: i don't think trump can

get secret clearance if he's elected, what you think about that? guest: in court and investigations, we found the election was not stolen from former president trump. the election was not stolen from president trump. as for top-tier security clearance, when you're president, you have a very wide lateral for the type of documents you're allowed to have access to. that's a right of the office pretty doesn't necessarily need to pass a background check from the fbi and the national security council. the campaign process usually serves as that type of vetting and background check. if the american people say they want donald trump back in the white house, he will be involved

in the whole kit and caboodle. host: let's go to the independent line, vicki from ohio. caller: hello? host: go ahead. caller: my problem is the government and biden. i believe we are all lied to. biden has no clue what he's doing. he shouldn't even be on tv. the government itself, all the problems, they are a bunch of little kids trying to get power and nothing ever gets done. this united states has been destroyed. trump should be back in. at least when he was in, he got things done and biden has totally screwed it up. then to hear he gave iran billions of dollars and then turns it to hamas. what kind of president do we have? what if you take care of the people here? stop giving our money away.

we are not the superpower everybody says we are and all the countries know it now. that's because of biden. he has totally screwed up everything. i can't even make my bills because of all the high prices and they say it's getting better and biden says inflation is better. it's all a lie. the american people need action. they don't need to be told everything is ok when it's not. it's got to stop. these are grown men. they act like idiots. that has to stop. you got to take care of your own people before you take care of anybody else and that's never been done with biden, ever and it's outrageous. host: we will let kirk respond. guest: she verbalized a lot of the frustration that voters have with president biden.

look at the latest nbc news poll this past weekend. biden had his lowest approval rating ever only 40% approve of his job now. 37% disapprove. his lowest marks were on foreign policy. it's frustrating for the biden administration because they look at the wars now in ukraine and israel ramping up operations against hamas and they have tried their best to keep american involvement to a minimum with no troops on the ground and they tried to set guidelines and goals. they are trying to meet those goals and it's a challenge for the biden to overcome the frustration and vicki's point about inflation, that's a nagging issue for biden and his team ever since he took office.

the bidenomics moniker is just not sticking or if it is, they associate bidenomics with higher prices on groceries and gas. it's not playing the same way that white house wanted to now and that will be the central problem of the biden campaign that they need to overcome into next year. host: let's hear from michael calling from pensacola, florida, democratic line. caller: i want to get a view of the special election for the central seat in new york for the judge. i want to look at that senate race in terms of ted, whatever his name is. the third thing is the district seven congressional seat in

virginia, spanberger will be running for governor so she's vacating betsy. what are some reactions to those things? host: the caller asked if there will be a special election for george'santos seat but not yet? guest: not yet and i appreciate the question. these are the hottest races we are following. right now, there is no special election for the santos seat. he has said he would not run for reelection. he has set a lot of things. he is not to be trusted at all. there is now a renowned push for a third time to expel him. the chairman of the house ethics committee has floated another motion to expel him and they will vote on that after the thanksgiving holiday. if he is expelled, there will be a special election there and i would assume a lot of the same candidates running in that

election will run for the special election. the former representative in the last cycle is the favorite in that race. district seven is a newly redrawn area that president biden carried by about seven points last cycle. it was used as a bellwether for the red wave we were potentially going to have last year. spanberger is a tough incumbent. she is made for that district and her retirement is an opportunity for republicans. right, eugene bitterman from the

first trump impeachment in that race, he has raised about $800,000 in his first week which is a hefty sum for a house race. speaking of expensive races, texas will be expensive now. so much money has been raised there. he has outraised ted cruz right now. a lot of money coming in from outside sources because ted cruz is one of those names republicans site that democratic small dollar donor. democrats are excited about this race and excited about colin allred. ted cruz will be a tough out in any year. in 2018, when they became within

two points of beating ted cruz, and the two cycles since then, if that seemed that was the high watermark for democrats in texas where it was a peak backlash against president trump. we will see if collin already can match that today. that's on our view of democrats who would love an extra seat right of joe manchin retired. host: i want to talk on the others. i pulled up your national journal map of the democratic senate seats. there are 23 and that includes three held by independents who caucus with democrats and that's the yellow on the map. with 23 seats, how pressing willoughby for democrats to hold onto their majority in the senate?

guest: it's going to be tough. cute as to our team for that map. democrats are at a disadvantage on this map. this is the best map they've seen in decades. gary peters who is the chairman of the democratic senate campaign is back again after helming the committee in 2022. joe manchin retiring, in essence ceding that c2 republicans, president trump carried west virginia biomes 40 points and democrats do not have a plan b there. democrats are starting the cycle at a 50-50 split. in order to keep the senate, they will need to defend every

single one of their incumbents and take the white house. in the front lines in the battle for the senate, there will be two states that former president trump carried twice, montana with senator jon tester and in ohio was sherrod brown. between those two races alone, they will be expensive and if republicans flipped one of those seats, they're probably going to take control of the senate. host: let's go back to the phone lines. republican line. caller: this is tom, chairman for organization in virginia called chasing freedom in virginia and we do a voters guide for all of the races in virginia we interview all the candidates and publish the results.

we do an endorsement free primary. we are a conservative organization. that's not the main reason i called. the main reason i called is you got a call or earlier that asked whether the election was stolen. that's the overly simplistic version of what really happened. what we've got to recognize for all the democrats out there, listen closely -- they lied to you. they did it on purpose. we now see what happened with the fbi influencing twitter and facebook. host: i want to stop you, who is they? caller: the fbi working with twitter and facebook, the press, free speech in order to cover up the hunter biden laptop which is now revealed to be true which we know would have probably flipped to the election if at it come out it was true and it was an

ongoing investigation into hunter biden. in addition, the democratic party also manipulated 51 career intelligence officers, just the reputations by convincing them to say it was likely russian disinformation. that was also why they knew it was a lie. all of this goes back to the fake dossier that was created by the clinton campaign to defame donald trump which got turned into a false counterintelligence investigation against the trump campaign that outed carter page who was a source for the cia against russian oligarchs. what i'm trying to say here is -- it's very important -- democrats out there need to realize that the democratic party did this to you. they did it to everyone. they lied from the very beginning because they knew that donald trump wasn't going to

play with all of the political sharks. he would try and work for the american people. he spent his entire administration being forced to defend righteousness essentially. not religiously but doing the right thing. what i'm begging people to realize is that you've got to look at the fact. you can't just listen to people talking points. host: we appreciate your call. i want to let kirk respond. guest: it's more of a, then a question. tom was dipping into a lot of conspiracy theories there. there are ongoing investigations into hunter biden and the biden family. i don't necessarily believe the election was stolen and the they come of the fbi or the deep state was behind this conspiracy

to put biden in the white house and stop trump. we have seen that play out time and time again. that's been proven time and time again through either local and state investigations that the big lie is no more than a big lie. host: we will get more -- one more caller in, lou in portland, oregon, democratic line. caller: good program. i want to mention something and asked two questions about congressional races in oregon. in oregon, i'm with the gray panthers with 70 candidates that come to talk to us. we have rank-choice voting and he goes into effect next year and there's no primaries. if you have time, on the oregon congressional races, you probably already know that

there's one open seat because earl blumenauer democrat is retiring and there's a consistency with three oregon women engineers who are running to take out a republican seat. traditionally it's a democratic seat. of the people we are keeping track of, jeremy cloud skinner, lynn peterson and jenelle bynum are running and for blumenauer's seat which has long been not a contested but a long democratic seat, there are candidates p likeaul who has a sister in washington and eddie mireles, a city counselor from gresham. if you have the information or comments on those races, that would be great. host: any response? guest: i think the oregon races get overlooked because of an

east coast bias we have a little bit. those are all really exciting races. the earl blumenauer seat will be a solid democratic seat. that will be done in the primary. i think the great choice voting is really interesting. we saw how that played out to scale in the alaskan at-large race last year which the the democrat flipped that seat after don young passed away. she was the second choice for a lot of republicans who either want to support sarah palin or nick begich on the ticket. with rank-choice voting, there is a push to play more toward the middle and be a consensus candidate. we see these more safe primary races where it is kind of boiled down to boil down to the

extremes of the party and excite the base. the oregon five seat races are a prime pickup opportunity for democrats. reamer beat a more progressive candidate less time around and that's a seat that biden carried by about nine points. it was one of those surprising wins for republicans in a blue seat that helped deliver the majority. we will be closely following it. we think it's probably going to be one of our top races to watch , in our top 20 races when we update our rankings. host: alrighty, editor of national journals hotline, thank you for joining us this morning. guest: thank you for having me, have a good day. host: we will take a break and a

little bit later on "washington journal," we will have the cato institute william ruger and jason thorin discussing the report on freedom in 50 states. start calling and now for open forum. democrats (202) 748-8000, (202) 748-8001 republicans, independents (202) 748-8002. we will get to them after the break. ♪ >> live sunday, december 3 on in-depth, the berkeley law professojoined just to take calls about the u.s. supreme court, is supported presidential powerthe trump administration and more. the book includes crisis in

command, defender in chief donald trump's fight for presidential power and the recently published politically incorrect guide of the supreme court. joining the conversation with your phone cal, facebook comments and texts. in depth live, sunday, december 3 noon eastern on c-span2. >> c-span studentcam documentary competition is back, celebrate 20 years with this year's theme, looking forward while considering the past. we are asking middle and high school students to create a 5-6 minute video addressing one of these questions -- in the next 20 years, what is the most important change you would like to see in america? or over the past 20 years, what has been the most important change in america? we are giving away 100,000 dollars in total prizes with a grand prize of $5,000 and every

teacher who has students participate in this year's competition as the opportunity to share a portion of an additional $50,000. the competition deadline is friday, generally 19024. visit our website at studentcam.org. >> c-span shop.org is our online store. browse through our latest collection of c-span products. there is something for every c-span fan and every purchase up support our nonprofit operation, shop now or anytime at c-span shop.org. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. we are in open form, your chance to weigh in on any political topic or news of the day.

democrat line is [indiscernible] [indiscernible] (202) 748-8000, republicans c-span.org (202) 748-8001,s independent (202) 748-8002. this is an article from npr. i will read a little bit from this npr morning edition article.

that's the article from npr about today's hearing. it will haen at 9:30 a.m. three-judge panel from the u.s. court of appeals. they will consider whether to reinstate a gag against former president donald trump and the federal election interference case. live coverage begin:30 a.m. eastern on c-span2, c-span now and online at c-span.org. we are in open forum now and we are going to the phone lines.

edwin from new bern, north carolina, democratic line. caller: good morning. i am glad to see some traction will happen on raising the tax cap on the social security trust fund. currently, the cap is $160,000. if they raise that cap to $200,000 or less, social security could be saved for 75 years. i make republican -- with the republican in my district come i wrote him a letter and he refuses to do that because he says it's attacks. all of my seniors out there, you need to get with your congressional leaders and talk about the bill raising the cap robert reisch is trying to push that and i'm trying to push that because right now, the social security trust fund will only be able to pay benefits 77% starting in 2032 because we in

this country pay out and so security helps 26 million americans and there's a lot of seniors that only rely on social security. i urge my aarp/senior people to contact their congressman about the bill raising the cap to save social security for 75 years or more because right now, the text cap is $160,000 and if they raise it to $200,000, they will be able to capture those funds. host: connie is next in illinois, republican line. caller: i'm in pekin. thank you for taking my call. i would have wanted to speak to that young man before.

he was talking about the corruption and the conspiracy theories and everything. i wonder what he would've thought when he heard president obama's right-hand man the other day when he said that joe biden should not run again. he is planning on there being enough corruption to put them back in office. that's from president obama's right-hand man axelrod. that's not a republican statement. that was a democrat. host: all right, we appreciate your call. let's go to joy in louisiana, independent line. caller: yes, ma'am, i appreciate

you taking my call. i want to thank the man that was just on talking about social security. i will do what he says and also i want to say that i don't think they should stop donald trump from saying he whatever he wants. it was ok for nancy pelosi, chuck schumer and all of them to get out there and say things. they need to let donald trump alone. and if they don't want him to be president, then they need to leave malone but as far as trying to put that man in jail for what hillary clinton did? she should have been in jail. that's what makes me think the democrats want to go after him because they know they cannot

put him in their back pocket. that's all i have to say. host: all right, joy. next up, mapleton, georgia on the democratic line. caller: hi. thank you for taking my call. i just want to say about the men the call from virginia that was spouting that crazy conspiracy stuff about president biden. i am so tired of these people [indiscernible] they forget to listen to the other name, trump which is the main one of corruption. i am amazed at people that call in and support of a man that has done wrong. they claim to be religious and espouse all these religious

views about trump is a great president. does a president call up another president and ask him to spy on somebody in his own country? [indiscernible] come on, people. is that the greatest president we've ever had? i'm tired of hearing all this craziness on the line. thank you for taking my call. host: all right, marcy is up next in advance, north carolina, republican line. caller: good morning. yesterday, the washington journal chose a forum that was unfair concerning our faith and belief system. on sunday, the body of christ are preparing for their weekly worship service.

calling into washington journal is the last thing on their mind. they say all people have a belief system, it goes with them everywhere and it's in everything they do. the world takes their children to the marketplace and they expect christians to lay down their christian values so christians do not buy into that. the biggest problem that christians have is they look at the same secular news that the world uses. we have options, christians have got to look at the world through a christian perspective. we've got victor davis hanson, bob woodson, programs like faith nation, focus today. we have larry alex townsend, we

have got to look at the world through a church perspective. thank you for taking my call. host: all right, robin is up next, independent line in kentucky. caller: yes, i would like to caution everyone about what has been said so far about this country. we've seen far too many people who are comfortable in their own ignorance and bigotry in vanity. this is something we will have to look for through election and reassessment before we open our mouths. thank you. host: we are in open form right now. it's your chance to weigh in on any political topic or news of the day. democrats, the line is (202) 748-8000, republicans (202) 748-8001, independents (202) 748-8002. we are taking your calls this

morning on "washington journal." terry is next, salem, massachusetts, democratic line. caller: this country is really scaring me these days. we finally found out that a good percentage of our country does not care for democracy or the constitution. they want the authoritarian figure to hold them by the hand and lie to them and then project that the other side is the liars. there's two types of people in this country -- people who can see donald trump coming from a mile away and people that donald trump can see coming from a mile away. i am very sad to see how woefully and willfully ignorant most republicans are. it's very sad, thank you. host: let's go to south carolina , arlene on the independent line. caller: thank you for taking my call.

i think our government -- i'm an independent -- they are proving that if you buck the system there, they will go after you. host: ok. did you have more you wanted to say? caller: yes, it's a little scary not necessarily for me because i'm an older person but error young people coming up. we want a government of people jointly solving problems together and that's not happening. the government in there now will go after anybody that does not agree with them and that's not what america is about, thank you. host: ok, paul is next, democratic line, iowa. go ahead. caller: yes, i would like to clarify something.

we hear all this talk about the steel dossier and blaming democrats for it. wasn't the steel dossier formulated by the republicans as opposition research against donald trump years ago? that's my question. the democrats always get blamed for the steel dossier but i believe it was originally started by republicans. thank you. host: let's go to the independent line, greg from greenville, south carolina. caller: i just want to quickly respond to the woman who said david axelrod, that biden had to cheat to win. what he actually said was he might try to cheat nature, referring to his age. he did not say anything about

cheating the system or cheating voters or cheating the election. he said he may try to cheat nature and finish a second term. i don't know why the republicans are so ill-informed and believe every lie they are told but it is absurd. thank you so much. host: all right. let's hear from leon, flint, michigan, republican line. caller: i was never a voter. donald trump, i supported him from the sidelines. one year into his term after he won, i've seen the democrats do nothing but spend 1000% of their time disrupting a duly elected president. that is the most corrupt thing i've ever seen in my life. i was ready to vote the next time around.

it was sad that a loss but i've never seen a political party that spends 1000% of their time disrupting elected president and now they are going after him criminally? how come laws don't apply to the democrats? thank you. host: on the line from santa fe, new mexico, robin on the democratic line. caller: hi, there has been someone who was running for president from jail. his name was eugene debs and he ran for president i believe beginning in 1908 and this is from the 1920's when he was in prison and actually running and speaking from present. there is a precedent for this.

anyone who starts talking about you can't lock up trump is wrong. there is a precedent for this. also, how come no one has ever asked trump how many abortions he's paid for? don't tell me he hasn't. he talks about how women should be punished for having an abortion. what about the men? what about the men who get the women pregnant? what about the men who pay for abortions? they are supposed to get off scott free? yeah. i'm certain he paid for abortions in the 1970's and the 1980's. i'm certain, thanks. host: next caller is tonya in cincinnati, ohio, democratic line. caller: good morning. i just heard the woman not too long ago talk about the christian values. i've been listening to c-span

since it started. i am an old lady. i've been hearing these christians come on and quote these verses and talk about how they are in such supportive donald trump. i want to submit to them second thessalonians -- i will read a short thing and i will talk about the other if i could. chapter4 says he who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called god or that is worshiped so that he sits his god in the temple of god showing himself that he is god. then it says that the people who accept these laws knowing they are lies will also be punished

with the king of liars. these people who claim to be christians, i call them christian light. they don't act like christ, they don't do things like christ, they accept lies and liars and the word tells them that they will be punished greatly for this. in fact, they will be destroyed. i'm just trying to give them a word, listen to what the word says. you cannot pick and choose. you have to do it all. also i just want to say that i've been calling for years, talking about the liars and the lies that are happening in this country. as we can see, it's about to destroy this country. if people don't start thinking and understanding for them selves and looking at the facts, we are going to lose our democracy. you christian light people, you need to read and you need to

really understand what it is you are reading. thank you so much for taking my call. host: let's go to fort worth, texas, donna on the republican line. go ahead. caller: hi, thank you for taking my call. this is open forum, right? host: yes, go ahead. caller: i've been listening for weeks. trump this, biden that, all of it. it's just awful. it's messy. i have to tell you, i don't trust either one of them. i voted for trump twice. i will not vote for him again, not after he said he wanted to change our declaration of -- our constitution. i don't want anybody in there who's going to mess with the constitution because that's the first step toward a monarchy or

similar case. i'm not voting if those are the only two choices i have. kay granger, the one that said she was not going to run again, i called her office and told her that i was not going to vote for her again because the republicans needed to work together unanimously or they were going to lose the house. the next day, they all voted together. i don't know if it had anything to do with my phone call but i'm hoping it did. they need to wake up. the people that are calling the bible and saying i'm a christian and jesus is my savior, they need to be studying regulations. it's going on right now, right

now. i just pray for the world may pray for peace, but everything is going topsy-turvy. it's all messed up. i like nikki haley but even she said something that scared me. the only person you all had and you had them on the show and that was kennedy a democrat. i liked what he had to say and he hasn't scared me. i am not voting democrat this year but everybody needs to wake up. biden is wrong, trumps wrong and everybody's wrong. host: we got your point and appreciate your call. let's go to port st. lucie, florida, anthony on the independent line. caller: yes, how are you doing? i just wanted to say we

missesq. it's been a while and they had to have john john sanity. we thank you all and we miss you all. i am in support of you andesq and my john john or my pedro running for president. i would vote for you all. the country would be a better place. i love my c-span nation, god bless you. host: let's go to james in waynesboro, georgia, democratic line. caller: good morning, can you hear me? host: yes, go ahead. caller: i hadn't planned to call but i hear the republicans talking about the way they treat x president trump.

when president obama was elected, there were comments when they said they refused to work with him. the things these people called his wife and children, that was a man from south carolina close to where i live and called the president of the united states a liar on national tv. that's about the most disrespectful thing you could ever do. i am tired of all of this. how can you people say that? nobody treated donald trump nearly as bad as they treated obama. it's the outright disrespect they should for him as a man and a human being. you all have a blessed day. host: let's go to the republican line, perry in bellflower, california. caller: good morning to you. host: good morning. caller: two things real quick -- i think the problems we are facing today go all the way back to george h w bush.

unfortunately, he was the brainchild of this global mentality. the clintons, his son and the obamas were only too happy to follow up on it. i don't know how we ever let it happen but it did. the other thing is, i called a few months ago andmimi was at the desk and i had a theory that was proven correct. we cannot see someone like an obscure anchor on c-span because it is obviously true that cancel culture would rise up to get c-span. i understand you don't want that but once again, it proves 've been saying. host: already, we will stop there and we will take a quick break and come back with the cato institute's williamruger and jason thorin who will

discuss their new report, freedom and the 50 states. be right back. ♪ >> friday nights, watch c-span's 2020 fork campaign trail which is a roundup of our campaign coverage providing one-stop shop to discover where the candidates are traveling across the country what they say to voters. this along with firsthand accounts from reporters, updated poll numbers, fundraising data and campaign ads. watch c-span's 2024 campaign trail friday nights at 7 p.m. eastern on c-span, online at c-span.org or download the podcast on c-span now. c-span, your unfiltered view of politics.

>> this year, but tv marks 25 years of shining the spotlight on reading nonfiction authors and their books with talk for more than 22 authors, nearly 900 cities and festivals visited in 16,000 events. book tv has provided viewers with 72,000 hours of programming on the latest literary discussions on history, politics and biographies. you can watch book tv every sunday on c-span2 or online at book tv.org. book tv, 25 years of levision for serious readers. >> if you miss any of c-span's coverage, you can find it anytime online at c-span.org. videos of key hearings, debates and other events featured markers that guy jatin new and

interesting highlights. these points of interest markers appear on the right-hand side of your screen when you hit play and select videos. the timeline makes it easy to quickly get an idea of what was debated and decided in washington. scroll through and spend a few minutes on c-span's points of interest. >> listening to programs on c-span through c-span radio just got easier. tell your smart speaker, play c-span radio app and listen to "washington journal" daily at 7:00 a.m. every morning and congressional hearings. catch washington today for a fast-paced report on the stories of the day. listen to c-span any time. just tell your smart speaker, play c-span radio app. c-span, powered by cable. >> a healthy democracy doesn't just look like this. it looks like this where

americans can see democracy at work and where citizens are truly informed in the republic thrives. get informed straight from the source on c-span, unfiltered, unbiased word for word. from the nation's capital to wherever you are, you get the opinion that matters the most which is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span, powered by cable. >> "washington journal" host: host: continues. "washington journal welcome back to." we are with william ruger and jason thorin. they've written a book -- a report for the cato institute. it is titled " freedom in the 50 states." william and jason, welcome to "washington journal." good morning and thank you for joining me this morning.

i will start with william, tell us about this report. it it's -- it is in its seventh edition. what does it tell us? guest: one of the things we tried to do with this book is started conversation about freedom. it's an important value that people hold particular in our country, one dedicated to livery -- to liberty. we wanted to look at which states were more or less free in the spirit and the fact of what we consider freedom and because we are social scientists we wanted to measure this like people measure democracy or you think about some of the corruption across the united states or the world. we wanted to measure this because we are inherently curious and we care about this. we looked at these states and measured them based on their fiscal number regulatory and personal freedom. we looked at 230 different variables. 230 policies and we said how does it turn out?

how did they do in terms of the categories and individually? we think it's a robust measure. we are now in her seventh edition. host: what year's does this seventh edition cover? guest: we've been covering this since 2000. this particular index looks at the state of freedom as the beginning of this year. it's the end of 2022. we've covered just about everything that's happened across the states and the things that happened this year, we cover in the state profiles to get a flavor of what's been happening. there have been policy changes after rare data cut off. host: i want to let our viewers know about the phone lines. we want you to call in with your questions for william or jason or your thoughts about the various freedoms we will be discussing during this segment. democrats, (202) 748-8000,

republicans (202) 748-8001, independents (202) 748-8002. you can also send us a text message at (202) 748-8003. we will get to your calls and text in a moment. jason, the various types of freedoms overall, economic and personal, is there a ranking guest: at the ends? guest:that's right, we look at economic and personal freedom when we add them up, that's our overall freedom index. new hampshire is very high on both economic and personal freedom and that allows them to take the number one spot in new york is number 50. host: you mentioned new hampshire is your overall number one state. number two is florida, number three is south dakota, number four is nevada and number five is arizona.

is there a through line that you found with those top states? what do they have in common, if anything? guest: it's quite a mix and what they all have in common is that they are all at least pretty good on economic and personal freedom. new hampshire is a state that really stands out for a low tax burden and high economic freedom. you can say the same about florida and south dakota and nevada is our number one state on personal freedom. it scores highly for that. it's also pretty good on economic freedom in arizona is one of our most improved states over the left few years. host: you said arizona was most improved. what policy changes have happened in arizona recently that has put them in the top five? guest: in the last 10-15 years, arizona, florida, wisconsin are the most improved states.

arizona has done a lot with school choice and educational freedom. they've done a lot with property rights and protecting regulatory law and occupational licensing reform. arizona has been a nationwide leader. host: william, you can address the bottom five. i will show them to our audience. 46 is oregon, 47 is new jersey, 48 is california, 49 is hawaii and new york is ranked number 50. there seems to be a more obvious through line with these bottom five witches they are considered liberal states. what do the bottom five as far as personal and economic freedom have in common? guest: one of the biggest problems with states like new york is the crushing tax burden. a state like new hampshire for example, its entire tax burden for citizens is basically half

of what it is for new york. new york scores badly when it comes to state and local tax burdens but also -- i'm sorry, local tax burdens but also state burdens. it's a very different set of ideological or philosophical commitment you see in terms of the policy ideology or the political culture of these states. these are states that see greater paternalism when it comes to personal freedom in many cases and also greater state control when it comes to the economy, particularly in regulatory policy. things like rent control in new york or eminent domain where it hasn't been reformed in many states where it was reformed in other states. new york has not had that. when it comes to the burdens on the economy, that's one of the things that differentiates these and speaks to another issue which is the relationship between economic freedom and

growth. one of the three lines is that states that are more economically free where fiscal policy is reasonable and regulatory policy are light, these are states where we see economic growth. citizens are enjoying the benefits. even if you don't care about freedom per se, most americans think about how this affects my wallet. in states that are more free, there is more money and that wallet and states less free, the government controls more of that money. host: before we get to the phone calls, did you want to make a comment? guest: i wouldn't say the blue states are not improving. i would say that blue states on average seem to have less economic freedom than red states.on personal freedom, there is no relationship. that's one of the reasons why an overall freedom, there is that relationship. guest: it's much messier on

personal freedom and that's what you would expect. some states are good when it comes to educational freedom which is part of personal freedom. they are better on things like gun rights but other states might be better when it comes to crime ingested -- crime adjusted incarceration rates which has a big issue over the last 20 years. states like texas have done badly and that and tried to improve but fall short of other states. you think of maine which has a low incarceration rate. host: we are getting some calls in. let's go to the phone lines. anne is calling from new york state, democratic line. caller: good morning, this is an interesting discussion. how one defines freedom can be subject to interpretation. i would like to stand up for new york state where i live by choice. i moved here from the deep south deckard ago and never looked

back. economic freedom, i live in an area where housing is relatively affordable. i also had a long career as a member of a union so i have a very comfortable salary and a great pension. in terms of personal freedom, give me reproductive rights and autonomy over my own body. in terms of personal safety, i like gun control. i think freedom can be defined in a variety of ways, thank you so much. host: william? guest: you can define freedom anyway you want but we take a very traditional american approach to it. we are social scientists that we want to define our terms and instruct our index consistent with that. we define freedom has the ability to dispose of your life, liberty and property as you see fit consistent with the equal rights of others. you may prefer lots of other values in your life but we are trying to measure freedom itself.

it's not things like the amenities, where you live or the extent to which you have stability because of a pension. that's a different type of value. across the board, new york is a lot less free. if you want to pursue it site -- a certain type of occupation without government controlling that, you want more money at the end of the year, there is less of that relative to other states. when it comes to an issue like the second amendment, it's been part of our constitution since the beginning. this is a right the supreme court has recognized as an individual one. you may disagree with the ability to enjoy your second amendment rights but it is part of freedom in america. guest: we all value freedom in one way or another. some think that freedom is the most essential requirement of a political system and others think you can trade freedom off

against other issues. i think we would all agree that if you can provide the same public services and lower tax burden or you can get the same crime rate at a lower incarceration rate and fewer gun laws and things like that that put people in jail, than that's better. what we disagree about is how to trade off against other values. this research is still valuable to understand what you might be giving back to the phone lines. democrats (202) 748-8000, republicans (202) 748-8001, independents (202) 748-8002. our next collar is anthony in chicago. caller: i was flipping through the country rankings in your latest report and i wanted to get a better understanding of

just how right in the top half the apartheid state of israel is ranked in the top half of all countries and that rating went up since whatever previous data point you had. between the 10 brain cells you share can you explain that for me. >> do you rank -- host: do you rank other countries? guest: look at the american states. there are others that look at values or states across the international system. that is not ours. host: mart in fort lauderdale, florida. democratic line. caller: that was quick. thank you for having me on. this is not really my subject.

you mentioned what these guys report is and i looked it up and i can tell you at least the state i am familiar with where they have florida ranked at the top in a lot of places, they do not at what they are doing. they started from a coke brothers starting point and then proceeded to fill things out the way they wanted them to go. florida is not a free state. florida -- no income tax. meanwhile everything everybody that has to go in business has to pay a fee, they have to pay the state for licensing. we are in the process of making it illegally to say things about certain groups in our state. you cannot talk about groups that ron desantis doesn't like. our governor started a war with walt disney over them talking about his policies.

you have a state legislature over from desantis when he wanted to run for president. they change the law. host: i think we got your point. caller: but you have is so completely wrong. host: jason, i will start with you. can you tell us why florida did so well? guest: florida is not perfect. no state is. florida does really want to on economic freedom, very low tax burden. we do include occupational licensees so the fees you would need to go into business. florida does relatively well on these measures. on labor market freedom. there is a reason why 70 people are moving to florida. there is a reason why it has been so economically dynamic. it is an attractive place to do

business compared to other places. we include the personal freedoms from the left and the personal freedoms from the right. we try to be comprehensive in terms of the number of freedom we cover. we do not have an objective on one side of the political spectrum or the other, it is just the way numbers shake out. guest: you can see that in things like marijuana policy, criminal justice policies, incarceration rates are also part of the index. we are just trying to be umpires and calling balls and strikes. we are applying our definition of freedom and doing it without regards to partisan affiliation. parties have changed over the time. host: we are talking to jason sorens and william rugens, authors of a new book by the

cato institute called freedom in the 50 states. we are taking your calls and your questions for them and your comments about personal and economic freedom. democrats call us at (202) 748-8000, republicans (202) 748-8001, independents (202) 748-8002 up we have plenty of time for your questions and comments. next up is steve in cincinnati. independent line. caller: i wanted to make a comment about yesterday's topic about separation of church and state. so much of people's viewpoint on politics and religion depends on what they consider important. you remember the saying one man's trash is another man's treasure? so much of it depends on people's personal viewpoint. there was a lot of talk about morality in politics. nobody gave a definition for how

you decide what is moral or immoral. a good working definition that i found was when something good is presented as if it is people that is immoral, or if something evil is presented as if it is good, that is immoral. that is a good way of viewing political parties and what they do and trying to decide whether they are being moral or immoral. host: du in your economic and personal freedom, do you get into -- i see marriage freedom on here. does it sit on some of these religiously pinned topics, for example same-sex marriage. caller: yes. -- guest: yes. we have that in states. we also have states that allow couples to adopt a marriage that

prohibits no-fault divorce. that is another option that is a positive for couples. we also include religious freedom restoration act. we have all sorts of were alabi policies, whether prostitution -- all sorts of morality policies, whether prostitution is illegal, for example. host: i wanted to ask, because you both come from the american institute for economic research and this cato institute research seems to be pretty libertarian standpoint. with that being accurate way to explain the political center of your point of view? guest: one framework you can attach to this would be classical liberalism. we are a very traditional liberal values institution in

terms of our priors. if you want to say that is libertarian, that is not a word necessarily. that conveys a lot more because of the party issue. we are nonpartisan. we tend to focus on things like monetary economics. we look at economic freedom. how do we use the tools of economics, price theory, choice theory, how do we use those to analyze our political economy, then looking at issues like trade policy, esg, the issue of collectivism, we are classical liberals but we are social scientists trying to understand things in terms of causation and efax. -- and effects. host: the caller from new york did mention abortion rights and that is a big freedom we are hearing about politically.

is that reflected in your report? guest: it is not in the main index and there is a good reason for that. we do have not only one abortion index or two, we have three of them in our appendix. we look at three different types of abortion policy regimes. one that would be called pro-life, one that would be called moderate pro-choice, and more extreme pro-choice. we look at those and rank the states if you consider abortion to be a critical freedom or protecting the life of innocent fetuses as an important value. we have those three different blanket -- we have those three different rankings in the appendix. we leave abortion out because given our view of freedom, it will depend on something that is outside classical liberalism or our definition of freedom. it will be when you believe life

begins. that is why we provide three different indices so if you have a different view you can look at how your state ranks. host: let's go back to the phone lines. sarah in kentucky. independent line. caller: good morning. thanks for taking my call. i was wondering if you would be able to tell me which states our best economically for retired military personnel. my understanding is some states will tax retirement income while others will not. that is my question. if you could talk about that i appreciate it. guest: i would look first at the states that do not have an income tax. that will be new hampshire, tennessee, texas, florida. wyoming. alaska.

i would look first at those states. you might also want to look at states with lower property and sales taxes because you'll be buying things, owning a home. i would look at the overall tax burden. there you find alaska is our number one state for overall tax burden. they pay you to live there. maybe they have to because not many people would otherwise live in alaska. guest: at the veteran myself i would say i notice a lot of veterans moved to florida in texas. a lot of that is because of taxation, but it is also because there are a lot of military bases and veterans like to be near those. your choice of where to move will be dependent on a lot of things. one thing we should highlight is there is a correlation between freedom and outmigration or in

migration. when you control why people move like cost-of-living or amenities or things like mountains or oceans, freedom is something that matters. we are saying that states like new york are losing citizens and states like florida are gaining them and even states in certain neighborhoods -- states like new hampshire are gaining citizens relative to other states in the region that have the same climate. people are moving for freedom. they are moving away from state control. host: i guess this is a good time to plug the website if people are curious. it is freedominthe50states.org. i want to show the map, since we were just talking about taxation, the state taxation

map. i find it interesting because you mentioned states like florida, texas, new hampshire, alaska, wyoming. they are your top three on state taxation. three of the top five in state taxation are in your overall top five, which is new hampshire, florida and south dakota is number six, so up there as well. there seems to be correlation when we were looking at the state taxation map. you can see all of the different maps, plus the overall rankings on your website. let's go back to the phone lines. francis in vermont. democratic line. caller: good morning. host: good morning. caller: i grew up in vermont and

then i moved to texas for 20 years and it is night and day. they say there is no estate tax in texas. however they have county taxes. in new hampshire there are billboards. in vermont we do not have billboards. we are also tight about trash and pickups. new hampshire house billboards also. you do not need to have car insurance. that is a big problem here. a lot of people just drive the pickup truck. in florida we have people that come up that live in florida and then they come up here, sometimes for more months than they should. they had been here originally and they moved down for tax season. host: she just mentioned

taxation. i went from the state taxation map, texas is right number four, florida is ranked number five. then i clicked on the local taxation map, texas went from number four to number 48, and florida not as bad but went from five to 22. local taxation very different in some of the states. can you explain the difference in how that impacts the rankings. guest: that is right. texas is fairly fiscally decentralized. the state legislature in texas has noticed this and is trying to cap property taxes, local property taxes in texas. they have to be careful about how they go about doing that because fiscal decentralization on its own is a positive. more of that tax burden is local

and most of your funding for schools comes out of local taxes rather than state taxes. that is a positive because it we -- it means when choosing where to live you can choose the place based on what kind of public service it offers. texas has high local taxes. that is still better than high state taxes. they probably need to find a way to get a handle on how high property taxes are. host: we are seeing a couple of comments on social media. a text message i want to mention. first of all on x,ha constitution -wh constitutes freedom for this guy seems to be your ability to pay taxes -- wondering if these were included in your calculations? guest: taxes are a big part of

this. that is when the government is essentially taking funds from you that you worked to get. it is not the majority of the study. the study is broken down into one third, one third, and one third. it is a little bit more than a third in terms of personal freedom. what that means is taxation is one part of one third of the study. i would recommend people look at the whole thing. we can talk about the fact like things like eminent domain are part of our study. as jason mentioned, prostitution. things that matter when it comes to our children like educational freedom. that has been a huge issue as more states have tried to provide backpack funding so individual children are funded as opposed to school systems. that gives parents and other types of caregivers more opportunity to do so as they wish and that is a part of freedom.

it is not anti-public schools, let's say let's give money to parents and caregivers so they can go where best fits their needs. we do not want to focus too much on taxation. that is a hot topic and an important one. in april when we pay our taxes, we care about it. guest: we do include fees like driver's license fees. we do not include user fees like university tuition. it is not a negative if you get a lot of students paying university tuition. host: we will go back to the phone lines. democrats (202) 748-8000, republicans (202) 748-8001, independents (202) 748-8002. our next caller is in michigan on the independent line. i hear you are a rare gen z

caller falling into washington journal. caller: absolutely. i appreciate you having me on and the speakers. it seems that taxes seem to be central to your argument and it seems that is what drives a lot of your research. when you look at countries like haiti that cannot collect taxes or talks -- or countries that had struggles collecting taxes, those are not typically free countries, or when i think of haiti i do not think of the most free country. to have taxes so central to your argument seems like a fickle thing when there are other material realities that can truly affect people's freedom. host: how old are you? caller: i am 25. host: thank you for your call. guest: what i would say is it is misleading to use taxes as an indication of freedom when

you're going across countries and across levels of development. in poorer countries the governments often use other methods of exaction or ways of getting resources from citizens other than taxes such as selling licenses to importers. those are more inefficient ways of getting revenue. you have to control for your level of development, your level of state capacity. where our government is relying on taxes, only then is it important to look at the level of taxation as an indicator for you. not the only indicator, note most of our measure of freedom by any stretch, about 20% of our index, but it is a part of freedom. imagine the tax burden were 100%. under those circumstances it is clear you would have no freedom

because the government would own anything and you would be subject to whatever they choose to give you. taxation is not everything but tax burden does matter. guest: i would add we are not in artists. we do not believe in no government. that is often a red herring against the classical liberal viewpoint. we believe government should exist to protect personal and property rights. it should keep a safety. there are also public goods, national defense is an example. states do not vary a lot when it comes to some of these public goods provisions or even some regulatory policy. the only variables where there is differences across the states. we do not code whether doctors have to be licensed because every state licenses doctors. we are trying to look at state policies where the states differ.

if they say it is weird you are coding this, there are states that allow this to be free, or there are 49 states where they do not. i think we are pretty happy with how we do this. this is our seventh edition and we have taken the feedback. we changed how we waited this. when we started we based it more on an informed opinion about which policies were most important to americans and then we moved to a system where we looked at public policies discussions. and looked at what costs were imposed on people based on how much they cared about their issue in terms of the actual loss to them of those freedoms. that is one of the reasons we moved something like gambling freedom up because to jason and i we do not think that was important and then we looked at

how many people were interested in gambling and that rose in terms of the waiting we give. it also shows this is not a red or blue view. we wait things like gambling, tobacco, prostitution. those might be things more liberal people care about. we also have things more conservative people do and we are calling balls and strikes. host: rake is next. republican line. caller: generally i would like you to do a comparison between oklahoma and texas. which would feel freer? one other comment is before you do the comparison, there is a book that had a triangle of liberty at the top and to the left moral people and to the right faith organizations. what he was saying is if the

faith organizations are effective people will act more moral in that area so there'll be less need for the police to have stricter laws or write a bunch of moral laws. they will have to have more stoplight laws and more government involvement. you might add that as a layer as dow free the people feel the government is not encroaching at every angle when they drive out of their parking lot. the other thing is the comparison of taxes. i do not know if you put that in there about areas where there are all kinds of laws. you cannot spit on the sidewalk. you have to wait three seconds at a stop sign. real strict. host: let's let jason respond. guest: i think both of us would

agree that a more personally responsible, virtuous, and charitable society is one where freedom works better. i would not say that is aspect of freedom, but something that would be complementary to freedom. in terms of the comparison between oklahoma and texas i would say texas tends to be better off on economic freedom. oklahoma has improved a lot on personal freedom and is better than texas. overall oklahoma has been improving faster than texas. that is interesting to see. guest: and texas is terrible on personal freedom. it is number 50. it pains me to say that as someone who used to live in texas and has navy buddies who give me grief for ranking texas solo. guest: i grew up in houston. guest: we get a lot of grief from our friends. host: let's hear from amy in

georgia. democratic line. i am calling because they are focusing on taxes without explaining that taxes exist to provide for services that the private sector would not provide because it does not make enough profit. i also had a question. some of the states he ranked at the bottom have higher cost of living and their wages are higher than some of the other states. how did you account for that in your analysis? guest: i would say some of us believe that the lower the tax burden the better. others believe taxes need to be there to pay for public services. clearly, for a given level of public services a lower tax rate is better. some of these comparisons, you

have to wonder. new york's tax burden is more than twice new hampshire's. our public services twice as good in new york as new hampshire? i lived in buffalo new york and after we started doing this study i moved to new hampshire. i would say you are not getting that much more for that much higher tax burden. that is my view. others may disagree. guest: another comparison if you are not convinced of new hampshire might be a state like florida. florida has a really low tax burden overall. it has big cities like tampa and miami and tallahassee and jacksonville. it is able to provide a certain level of social services at much better costs and it may be they are providing fewer social services. if you care about freedom you might argue that could be a positive.

most of what happens in the social services fear should be -- in the social services sphere should be done better and more justly by nonprofit organizations. there is something called social power and not just political power. the more political power grows social power declines. you had a robust set of charitable organizations before we saw the rise of the federal government in these areas and those took care of people. i'm not saying that is the only way to provide public services but we have to be careful when we squelch or erode the kind of social power that leads to these things being solved at the local level by charitable organizations. guest: we have not talked about land use, which is an important part of our index. that we find to be the strongest driver of differences in cost of

living across metro areas and across states. the more you restrict homebuilding, that has a knock on effect and not just increases the cost of housing but increases the cost of everything because you have to pay workers more to get them to live there and pay their higher housing costs. host: one more caller. derek, st. petersburg, florida. independent line. caller: i retired about three years ago in california and moved back to florida. the differences are huge. high crime and high taxes in california. low taxes and low crime in florida. the governor has done things like get rid of the law where you cannot perform child mutilation in the surgery. also the police officers are supported here. i could go on and on.

i just wanted to say that those differences have been stark and also things like the don't say gay bill does not have the word gay in it. they use that to smear the governor. it is about pornography for children they are trying to stop. putting pornography in grade school. host: we got the point. we are running towards the end of the show. we will quickly have parting words. guest: we did not really follow social issues in our index. what we looked at is what the research shows americans value in looking at that freedom and we find that freedom matters. guest: go to the website and play with it. freedominthe50states.org. let's have a conversation about freedom and not just issues like equity or justice. host: