c-span as a public service along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. announcer: coming up on "washington journal", the news of the day and your phone calls. and we will talk about u.s. immigration policy in the current asylum process with krish vignarajah, president and ceo of refugee services. and elbridge colby about further assistance on national security concerns. "washington journal" starts now. ♪ host: good morning. it is friday, december 8. we are 38 days until the

iowa caucus. polls are showing many voters are not enthusiastic about a biden/trump rematch. this morning we are asking if you are satisfied with the current choices for president in 2024. have you decided how you are going to vote? have you switched your choice? do you wish someone else was running? republicans (202)-748-8001, democrats (202)-748-8000, an independents (202)-748-8002. you can send texts to (202)-748-8003, include your first name and city/state. and we are on social media at facebook.com/c-span and x @ cspanwj. welcome to "washington journal". we start with this poll from axios. this is the headline,

republicans happier with 2024 candidates then democrats. it asked two questions. satisfied with the current candidates? republicans 67% said they were and 29% said they would like to see other candidates. among democrats that number is 39% satisfied and 58% wanting other candidates to enter. independents, the biggest difference, only 20% satisfied and 72% said they would like to see other candidates enter the race. here is the associated press with this headline, many voters are weary about a biden/trump rematch. third parties hope they can fill the gap. the article says the 2024 presidential election is drawing an unusually robust field of independent, third-party, and

longshot candidates hoping to capitalize on americans' frustration. those looking to blaze a new path to the white house range from members of congress to a prominent academic and a psion of one of the most prominent political families. their odds are exceedingly long. george washington was the only one to win without party affiliation and an incumbent has not lost his party's presidential nomination since franklin pierce in 1856. abraham lincoln's election marked the last time someone from a new party, in his case, the republican party, won the white house. but with the united states deeply divided and anxious about the prospect of another biden/trump campaign third-party candidates insist voters are restless enough to defy history.

i wonder what you think about that. on wednesday night at the gop primary debate the gop candidates were asked about foreign policy and it led to this exchange among nikki haley, vivek ramaswamy, and chris christie. >> there is no one happier right now than putin because all the attention america had on ukraine went to israel and that is what they were hoping was going to happen. we need to make sure we have full clarity that there is a reason that taiwanese want to help ukrainians. they know if ukraine wins, china will not invade. there is a reason they want to help israelis. if iran wins, russia wins. but what wins all of that is a strong america and that is what joe biden has not given us. [applause] >> foreign policy experience is not the same as foreign policy wisdom.

i want everybody at home to know i was the first to say we need a reasonable peace deal in ukraine. now they are coming along to that position with the exception of nikki haley and joe biden who still support, what i believe, is pointless war in ukraine. i believe those with foreign policy experience -- something that nikki haley and joe biden have in common -- is they could not state three provinces in eastern ukraine they want to send our troops to fight for. these people -- she has no idea what the hell the names of those provinces are but she wants to send our sons and daughters and military equipment. reject the myth they have been selling you that she has real foreign policy experience. look at the blank expression. [booing] [crosstalk] >> let me say something.

his reasonable peace deal -- he made it clear. give them the land they have already stolen, promised putin you will never put ukraine in russia, and then trust putin not to have a relationship with china. >> that is not my deal. >> it is exactly what you said. >> i will describe my deal. >> do not interrupt me. i did not interrupt you. >> you want to send our kids to die, ok. >> you go out and say something and all of us eat on video, we confront you on the debate stage, you say you did not say it. >> i will say it. >> i am not done yet. [cheering] this is the fourth debate you would be voted in the first 20 minutes as the most obnoxious blowhard in america. [cheering]

host: that was from the debate on wednesday. we are taking your calls this our about the 2024 election. marion is up first in new york, republican. caller: can you hear me? host: yes, go ahead. caller: i am definitely for trump. he has a record of getting this country together again. we had a good three or four years ago. we did not have all these immigrants coming over that we do not know what they are going to do, especially with the thing that happened in israel. it is terrible. i believe trump is the only person, if the democrats do not screw things up and do something stupid like they did the last time -- and they have thrown everything at trump so he does not run, because they know he is going to close the border and start drilling. that is what our country needs

right now. biden has ruined our country. he has ruined it. and he is so afraid of the mob that he cannot speak up. he is weak and if trump was president, this never would have happened. we would never have had two wars. we would not have had open borders with people coming over that we do not know what they are going to do. we heard the fbi -- i forgot his name -- but he has never seen so many red lights for terrorism in this country as he does right now. it is only a matter of time and the only one we can blame is biden. he refuses to go back on his policies. i hope these republicans that were just on stand up and don't

go back on what they are saying. don't sign another bill or send any more money to these other countries until we close our own borders and we secure our own country. host: got it. let's go to sterling, virginia. democrat andy, good morning. caller: i want to say to that previous caller, have you lost your mind? half of this country is bat crap crazy. to think they would get a putin clown to be president again -- he has to be the most corrupt, the most immoral man we have had in the white house. as far as president biden is concerned, president biden is a godsend. he basically has saved this country from falling into a trump dictatorship. he rescued nato.

he is helping the people of ukraine fight against trump's favorite buddy, putin. if we do not re-elect president biden as our president, we will become an autocracy. we will become a dictatorship and the united states of america will cease to exist. i cannot believe the cowards in the republican party. i cannot believe that half this country has such a perverted sense of patriotism that they would re-elect a man who said he did not want any amputees, any soldiers seriously injured, to be at any of his military celebrations because he did not like the site of that. to think he would support this man is incredible. he is a joke. he is dangerous to democracy. i hope he never sees the inside

of the white house. host: i want to ask you about what marion said about the borders. she said under trump the borders were closed, now they are wide open. how do you respond? caller: the republicans do not want to pursue any legislation that makes the borders more secure. they want to use that as a political tool in this year's election. just like they want to use this unfounded impeachment inquiry into president biden. they have no evidence to go after president biden. no ties to hunter biden's business dealings, but once again, they are only good for shutting down the government and giving big cash cuts to the rich and corporations. that is all they are good for. that is basically it. thank you. host: michael in ottawa, kansas, independent. caller: voting 20 years and

generally vote democrat on the ticket. i called the dnc this year and let them know i would likely have to sit these out. pretty sure there is nobody on either side that deserves a vote. host: you are not going to vote this year? is that what you decided? caller: more than likely against biden but i will have to wait and see. host: all right. let's talk to charlie next, republican in massachusetts. good morning. caller: good morning, mimi. nice to talk to you again. host: nice to talk to you charlie. caller: i like your nail polish better this week. you started with vivek ramaswamy

video from the debate the other night. to beat up on him, i believe, even though you are the fairest person on the show. i am losing my thought. he is the only guy that tells the truth. when he confronted nikki, she was dumbfounded when he talked about the three regions in the ukraine. the most important reason i am calling is because trump is going to be the nominee and biden is going to be the nominee if he makes it.

host: are you happy with that? are you happy with trump becoming the nominee or would rather see some of the out? caller: i would like vivek to be the nominee. host: tell him why you like him better than trump. caller: because he tells the truth. he is trump 2.0. he is a businessman. he is not a corrupt politician. he tells it like it is. he wants to help the country. why the hell does he need to do this? he might be a billionaire. why would he want to do this? he is an immigrant from india and he knows how the world is so terrible. he knows the only other place -- the only place you can do and

live free is america. host: all right, charlie. earlier this week at a fox news town hall in iowa former president trump was asked by sean hannity if he would use power as retribution against his political opponents. [video clip] >> you are promising america tonight you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody. >> except day one. >> meeting? >> i want to close the border and i want to drill, drill, drill. >> that is not retribution. [cheering] >> he says, you are not going to be a dictator? no, no, no, other than day one. we are closing the border and after that we are drilling, drilling, drilling. host: that was the former president. here is ruth in illinois,

democrat. caller: good morning. how are you today? host: i am doing good. caller: thank you for taking my call. i totally believe in president biden. i believe that he should run. he should be re-elected. as for the republicans, the only person i feel is telling the truth -- and i am old enough and lived on the east coast in massachusetts for many years -- is chris christie. i he voted republican in the past but i am a registered democrat. i feel that chris does also tell the truth. the other three that were there -- and i did watch the debat -- uld not say they f was unfit. i do not even like to say his name. i get very upset with the media

when they refer to him as president. he is not the president. he thinks he is, but he isn't. he is definitely unfit. i know they hated him in new york state. i am old enough -- i have voted -- i can remember back to my first election when johnson was re-elected. i remember kennedy. i also feel the republicans do not have anyone that could even remotely get my vote. i cannot understand closing the border because, in my opinion, yes, there does need to be more done. however, do they all forget back in 2017 when the dingbat --

excuse me, 45 -- put these people in a concentration camp, separated all those children, and it took them years to find their parents? they say he did great with our economy. i hate to say this but i was on my husband's's and my social security. i got no relief. i got no help. but i did last year. i received a raise. we will receive a raise this year on social security. i just cannot believe these people that believe the lies that 45 keeps saying. or the people that are also running. that is my opinion. host: appreciate your opinions. ed in ocean city, new jersey, independent. caller: ima third-party candidate for president and we

thank c-span for putting on the lesser known candidates in new hampshire. two years they put the whole three hours on 23 times. but a lot of these third-party candidates are some of the most sincere people you will meet. they play an important role because we discuss issues being ignored. host: like what? caller: one of my issues that gets too little attention is reducing stress in the workplace, especially for the blue-collar worker. making the workplace a clean, neat, friendly place. another one is mental health courses in high schools, which my charity does. third-party candidates play an important role in helping people. these political parties need to be put out of business. they are insincere. host: how was your campaign going? are you raising money? i am assuming this is a write-in campaign?

caller: i have run for 38 years -- that is a record -- and i get decent publicity. i am getting the message out. i know i am helping a lot of people. host: ryan is next, republican in north carolina. good morning. caller: hello. i would like to know something. what are the democrats -- what is their plan for immigration? i would like to know that. i do not think they have a plan for immigration. i want to notice comprehensive immigration reform. what are the details? i am voting for trump. i would rather vote for ramaswamy or desantis but if it is between trump and biden, i have to go trump again.

what is their plan? host: ok. joe is in tulsa, oklahoma. caller: how are you? host: good. go ahead. caller: i have always voted for the person but i am registered democrat and have been since i started to vote. but this year i have pretty much made up my mind that i will vote for anybody other than donald trump. host: why is that, jo? caller: i worked at school the first time he was elected and i was working in a room that there were second graders. five little second graders from different parts of the school because it was a classroom -- it was the computer class. it was kind of an elective

thing. they came from five different classrooms. five little children came up to my desk at one time, in unison, and they said, oh, miss jo, donald trump hates us. i can see with his manners why children would think our president hates me. i said, children, don't worry about donald trump. we love you. from then on i decided i would never vote for donald trump. he has no manners. he has no respect for anything other than himself, if he has respect for himself. host: all right. earlier this week president biden was asked if any democrat other than him could beat donald trump. [video clip] >> do you think there are any democrats that could beat donald

trump other than you? pres. biden: i am not the only one but i will defeat him. host: also, some news for you that we became aware of yesterday evening about the president's's son. here is the new york times. hunter biden faces indictment on tax charges, nine counts of evasion, and republicans on the cost of biden impeachment inquiry vote. we are taking your calls this morning on the 202 election4. are you satisfied with your choice of candidates? do you wish someone else would run? have you already made up your nd? later this morning we will be getting the jobs numbers from the department of labor and we will share those as soon as we get them. don a republican in st. joseph, missouri.

caller: good morning, everyone. donald trump is a natural. he has been president. he was a good president and he has got all the right answers coming out of his mouth. people that are for biden, they are brainwashed, only listen to one news source, msnbc and cnn, and they do not click around on the cable channels. i got cable -- i am going into fiber -- but the only listen to the old cnn, abc. they are brainwashed. if they listen to president trump for five minutes they

would say, man, this guy is with it. ramaswamy is a little bit naive still but he is right about mcdaniel. i was wanting to hear from perry johnson. i was wanting to hear from pastor binkley, but no, they cut them out. i don't know who makes those decisions but it is ridiculous. only had four people on their this last time -- there this last time. everything that comes out of president trump's mouth is down the line good. anybody who wants to see that ridiculous old, crusty guy joe

biden in there, isil sorry for their mental condition. host: liz cheney gave some interviews to some media outlets. the washington post says, liz cheney weighs third-party nomination. she is determined to stop other trump critics and things third-party candidacy could help him. here is a quote from what she said. "several years agold n have contemplated a third-party i happen to think democracy is isk home. viously, as a result of donald trump's contin grip on the republican party, and i think democracy is at risk internationally as we face threats that could existential to the united states and we n candidate who is going to be able to deal with an address and confront all those challenges.

that will be a part of my calculation as we go into the early months of 2024." that was former representative liz cheney. ray is next, rockwood, tennessee, independent. caller: hello. i am 84-years-old and i never thought i would live to see the day where the tv, radio, printing press, no one would let a man named rodrick kennedy junior be on the campaign trail to be president. what has happened to everything? nobody knows he is running. nobody hears him give a speech unless you go to youtube. why didn't i hear about december 7, 1941 yesterday? not one person on tv and nobody i know said anything.

why was that? host: pearl harbor day. that is actually on the front page of the wall street journal this morning. you can take a look at that article. survivors remember pearl harbor. also about rfk junior, he was on c-span. go to c-span.org and you can watch that entire interview and take a look at other appearances he might have had. it will be in our video library. joseph is up next in virginia, republican. caller: good morning. how you doing? host: good. caller: how many people took donald trump's refund he released to everybody and the democratic people probably took some too. donald trump has done a lot for

this country. best president i have ever seen. i know they are trying to get him out of the voting part so he does not re-run, but what happens to his votes if he is found guilty of these charges? host: good question. but regardless if he is found guilty or if he is convicted, you would still vote for the former president? caller: yes, i would. host: let's talk to lisa next, democrat in new york. caller: good morning and happy holidays. i am a biden supporter. i really do not understand how people can vote for trump.

i don't understand. if you are christian, he is talking retribution and revenge on his first day. as a veteran, he tells you that she serves you like a dummy. he does not respect them. as a black person, he thinks the ku klux klan are nice people. [laughs] as a constitutionalist, he wants to get rid of the constitution. i am just sad the way this country is now where it seems we dwell on sensationalism and things that are not really nice. that's it. thank you for hearing me out and have a wonderful day.

host: you too, lisa. let's look at the biden/harris campaign that released an ad last week. [video clip] >> my name is jody. i have been a pediatric nurse 18 years. i love what i do but we need more support. the last administration's policies were so troubling and our health care system has become a business and people are becoming billionaires off the backs of sick people. i have seen the heartbreak when parents are trying to figure out how they are going to pay for medicine to keep their kid healthy. we are seeing lots of positive changes and thanks to president biden and vice president harris families can afford medication now. the biden administration lower the cost of prescription drugs and passed laws to make health care more affordable. the idea we could go back to policies that help the rich get richer and left so many people

behind, i don't want to go back. we cannot go back. >> i am joe biden and i approve this message. host: that was the biden/harris campaign ad. we are taking your calls on whether or not you are happy with your choices for the presidential election. ray is in henderson, new york, independent. caller: good morning. it is so nice for an old man like myself to be talking to such a beautiful young lady this morning. all my life i have been listening to people say this is the best we can do, this is the best we can do. there has never been satisfaction with the candidates. it is nothing new. i remember eisenhower being called a doddering old man and he goes on and on. i am an independent but i will

tell you that in my lifetime no president got more accomplished in four years than donald trump. i will vote for him. it is sad -- i am not republican -- but it is sad one party wants to talk about the issues and the other party -- and this is all my life -- just wants to engage in character assassination. host: when he said he has accomplished a lot in the four years, what are some of the things you feel he has accomplished? caller: in my lifetime, and i am an old man, there was never a stronger, better economy than the one we had during the trump administration. there was no wars. there is plenty of wars now and say what you want about his personality, he is extremely effective.

he got on a plane and went to north korea. you can say what you want about it but our state department and 10,000 people being overpaid never got anything accomplished. whether you like it or not the world is full of dangerous people. you either find of way to get along with them -- a way to get along with them or we go from war to war to war, and i don't want my grandsons going to war. we are in trouble right now everywhere. joe biden is a flat out criminal. he is a crook. the information is coming out. you can choose as a democrat not to look at it, but his son is a drug addicted, influence peddling -- he has taken bribes and it is coming out. millions of dollars. you cannot hide it. the bank records are there.

it is disappointing the mainstream media not be honest about it. if they were as aggressive toward the bidens as they are toward the trumps, he would not be president right now. host: he a text we got from john in texas whoays, i am satisfied overall with the candidates running for president . in the primary iou choose marion williamson. what i am not ok with ishe dnc not holding debates. it is time we get out of the trump/biden mess. we had marion williamson on and you can check that out at c-span.org. 2025 when democrats retake the house and trp convicted and reelected anyway. get ready for his next impeacent. pamela said, i am extremely disappointed that we now are a country that lifts up men like

trump. the mere suggestioof a dictatorship, the criminal allegatis,he sexual assault, the university fraud, is this the best the gop has to offer? i wonder what you think about that. we will hear from kristi next in fairfax, virginia. caller: good morning. i would like to start off this thing in lamentations 5:2. our inheritance would be taken over by strangers. is that not what is happening? 98% of people are coming -- males are coming from other countries. i look at the state of chicago, illinois, california, arizona,

new york, and colorado. do people know the history that happened in those states with the south and central americans that are now coming back to these states? they are not coming back to play hopscotch. they are trying to claim their land back. let's be honest about things. i just want to give big ups to sarah huckabee sanders and kristi noems. these women are not afraid to take the fight to the enemy. i wish what a lot of the lawmakers would follow what these women are doing and take the fight to where it needs to be. donald trump has superseded his

duties as president for the american people. donald trump in 2024, hands down. god bless america. host: george is a democrat in virginia. hi, george. caller: how you doing? host: good. caller: i cannot listen to anymore of this. these cult people following trump is unreal. somebody was spot on when they were talking about dictatorship. and chris christie, i would vote for him because he is telling the truth. he is the only one up there not following everything trump is doing. it is ridiculous. i don't know what has happened to this country. host: here is the headline from

politico that says, trump's dictator remark puts 2024 campaign where biden wants it. the president's team used the remarks to showcase wide biden views trump as a threat to democracy. let's take a look at a campaign ad. this is nikki haley's first of the primary season. [video clip] >> a president must have moral clarity and know the difference between good and evil. today, china russia and iran are advancing. there is chaos in our streets and college campuses. our security is threatened at home and abroad. it is time for a new generation of leadership. we have to leave behind the chaos of the past and strengthen our country, our pride, and our hearts. i am nikki haley and i approve this message. host: we are taking your calls. going back now to virginia, independent. caller: hi.

that last ad, what you think she means by the drama in the past? she is talking about the insurrection and all that stuff and all of trump's misgivings. that is what she means by that. i wanted to say about the two candidates. these are the worst two candidates that could be nominated. i am 30-years-old and i voted democrat most of my life. under no circumstance will i be voting for genocide joe or the other democratic people going. i would like to see marion williamson. not trump. but the thing that really gets me upset the most is i voted early rather than waiting for election day when i did not know most of the democrats would be supporting israel and their genocide. if i would have known that, i would not have voted for them either. i wish we had actual people that

cared about the working people rather than the most popular people that can get the votes. that is all i have to say. host: eric in buffalo, new york, democrat. caller: how are you doing? host: good. caller: i am going to refer to this as the beast that follows donald trump. i am a supporter of joe biden. if it was a physical race -- not to mention he is killing him on the mental side --trump walked into a good obama economy. he gave all the rich tax breaks. instead of managing covid-19 he says he is not wearing a mask and it is going to disappear soon. and go drink bleach. it is a shame you want to focus on joe biden's son but forget about his son-in-law.

donald trump is a criminal. if republicans are law and order, you start and finish with donald trump. you hijack everything. y'all hijack christianity. y'all hijack law and order. there is no truth to anything republicans do. they vote against everything, everything to help the poor. you hijack the bible. why don't you open it up and read the bible? the bible explains who is more important. it is not rich. it is definitely the poor. when it comes to republican and democrat, if you ever want to get my attention, change your ways. i know it is not happening. donald trump is the antichrist. did not believe it 20 years ago but now i can see from the

zombies how revelation is true to every word. host: let's go to the republican line next. north carolina, barbara, good morning. caller: good morning. are you there? host: yes. go ahead. caller: people talk about trump this and that. i know he is not god but people like him because he is for the united states. i was born here and reared here. if you do not like living here, i suggest you move to another country. but trump's religious. he is for us and he is good for us. host: when you say trump is religious, how did you come to that conclusion?

caller: he might not even be christian but he knows who made this world. he gave us our last breath, jesus christ. people have forgotten where we came from and who put us here. host: let's talk to david next in the iveta, independent. -- in nevada, independent. caller: good morning. this is my first time being on a program like this. host: welcome. caller: thank you. religious freedom was why people moved over here. we all should have religious freedom. trump is the biggest joke i have ever seen. i laid on the couch sick as a dog listening to him for years and years with my mom. i do not believe a word he said

and now that he said he wants to be a dictator for one day, no. he wants to be the dictator of america. that is about all i have to say. host: lee is in charleston, south carolina, democrat. caller: good morning. the lady from north carolina -- [indiscernible] host: sorry, we were having trouble hearing you. let's go to cory in south carolina, republican. caller: i am a black man. i have noticed since biden has been in office money has been tight, groceries are unaffordable, he is a pedophile.

we are paying taxes and sending money to ukraine. there are people here in america that are homeless. i am for anybody that is for america first and let's help everybody else secondary. this government we are under right now, we are in big trouble. we got a war going on. we did not have a war under president trump. even though everybody thought of him as a big bully, he was not a bully. we were respected overseas. as of now, we are cowards. we are giving away money. we have a war going on, on three different sides, and it needs to change. president biden needs to get out and i know there are black people out there that under trump, financially, they were a

little able to have more and lives better. thank you. host: let's take a look at former representatives liz cheney. she appeared on cbs this morning and was asked about a possible third-party run. [video clip] >> we have all heard you say you will do whatever it takes to make your donald trump does not get into office again. what does that mean exactly? it seems you are floating you may run for presidency. time is running out for you to get on the ballot. some people say if you do as the third-party candidate that will really help him. >> i will not do anything that will help him. what i say i will do whatever it takes, we have to look at our politics in a different way. hopefully he will not win the nomination but he may well. if he does, all of us across party lines have to come together to defeat him next november. and there are a range of things we need to do about voting

for the constitution and not what political party people are part of. host: back to the phones. robert in maryland, independent. caller: good morning and merry christmas. it amazes me the amount of people that we hear call that they call the united states a democracy. we are not a democracy. we are a representative republic. please educate yourself. anybody who says democracy is being threatened, no, we are not a democracy. anybody who has a problem with israel, study history. in 1948 the united nations put forward a resolution, resolution 181, and they were the ones that came up with the two-state solution. they put that in place. your buddies, the great united nations, are the ones that did

that. if you have a problem with things that exist in israel and palestine, go to the united nations. google it. the reason i called this morning, i want to point out the failure of the republican party. you want to talk about rhonda mcdaniel? she is there to undermine president trump and the republican party. last week the republicans surrendered two house seats on purpose. and they will do more. the republican party must not impeach joe biden. do not give the democrats the opportunity to get rid of joe biden. if you vote to impeach joe biden and send that to the senate, the democrats will vote to get rid of joe biden. joe biden has allowed an invasion of this country and the mexican government and the cartels have paid joe biden to let this invasion take place.

on d-day in 1945, 150,000 troops landed on the beach in normandy. host: are you voting for trump or who are you voting for in 2024? caller: come on, mimi. i am not voting for these communists. this whole government behind you is communists. biden has taken money from the mexican cartels to allow this invasion to take place. host: we are going to be talking about immigration in about 10 minutes at 8:00. be sure to stay with us for that. mary is in crestview, florida, republican. caller: good morning. how are you? host: good. caller: good. i was listening to the different

inputs from different people, etc., but i do here a lot from people that do not know what is going on. i am 76-years-old and the people in power now some of them are from the chicago seven and other places. we do not have much of a choice these days for president. it is just like everybody says. anybody who wants to run for president can do it. why is it that the people who want to run for president cannot do it unless the democrats and the reporters -- they are not really reporters -- say they do?

all they do is talk about negative things. they never talk about anything positive. host: go ahead. caller: my big deal with this whole situation is the summer of love and these blm and nt for burning and walking up to people and shooting them in the head. host: i wanted to ask since you are a republican in florida on governor desantis and with you would support him for president? caller: yes, i would support him for president, but i don't think he has a chance. if it gets stronger. i am educated and i did pay for my education. i did something that was productive. host: let's look at governor

desantis' campaign. he launched a second tv ad in iowa. [video clip] >> we need somebody who puts this country first and not himself. ron desantis is the person that we need leading. he is probably the most effective leader that i know. i am so proud to give him my full support and endorsement. [cheering] >> i will fight for you. i will win for you. and i will lead america's revival. i am ron desantis and i approve this message. host: montgomery, alabama, democrat. good morning. caller: good morning. the guy that said he was a black man, that was not a black man. i keep hearing people talk about trump and his economy.

trump rode off his first two years of the obama economy. obama brought it back from the stuff bush did. trump did not anything. he added $8 trillion to the deficit or 25% of the 200-year deficit. then came the pandemic and when trump left office there were 2.9 million less jobs. the unemployment rate was the highest in history. the stock market was in the tank. but i keep hearing about this fantastic economy that trump had. trump did not know how to handle the pandemic because he never had to do anything other than ride off obama. i watched the republican debate.

about the only one on their that tells the truth about everything is chris christie. i am not voting for any of the republicans but if i had to, it would be him. if i did not have anybody on the others and i voted republican -- and i have in the past -- i would vote for chris christie. i would not vote for any of those other people. that is all i wanted to say. host: let's go to the independent line. joe, good morning. caller: good morning. remember trump is under indictment for the january 6 insurrection. that is traitor behavior. a judge in colorado determined he incited an insurrection. we need to watch those who supported and knew about the plan to overturn the election, let jim jordan of ohio, mike johnson of tennessee, our new speaker, scott perry of

pennsylvania, ron johnson of wisconsin, matt gaetz of florida, jim comber of kentucky, chuck grassley of iowa, ginni thomas, wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas. the colorado case to keep trump off the ballot may come up against the court and he should recuse from that case. look at election deniers still in office and who deny. we have got to get rid of those people because they are wrecking our country. trump divided this country? that is when this country went downhill as when trump came into the picture. fox news is a propaganda channel, not a true news channel. people need to pay attention. quit going down rabbit holes and get the facts. thank god for joe biden. please vote for him. he needs to beat the devil, the one that put the maggots in the

brains of many republicans in office and in this country. please vote for joe biden. it is critical. just like liz cheney says. i am so frightened for our country because of what trump has done to it. please. please. host: let's go to new jersey. dan, good morning. caller: my mental state is going into the toilet because i am laying here -- host: dan? caller: hello? hi. host: go ahead. caller: my name is dan. i am a conservative. i voted for trump twice. not because i think he is a great leader or great person but he was better than hillary.

that is what it boiled down to. host: and you thought he was better than biden as well? caller: sorry? host: did you think he was better than joe biden as well? caller: absolutely. biden is a mixed bag and none of it is good. i see what is happening with biden. how can you tell when you're running for president -- how can you tell people that come into the country and then they come into the country illegally, you have no idea who they are, what their medical history is, and now they are arriving in these democratically run cities and being overwhelmed. look at mayor adams in new york. host: which of the republican candidates would you favor? argue in the trump camp or is there one of the other ones? caller: desantis. i realize he is a dark horse. host: why do you like desantis?

caller: i thought he had some good ideas and he served in the military which means a lot. anytime you are in the military you have a better perspective on what is going on as far as giving life, taking life. it is my own opinion. my dad was in the military and he experienced world war ii. i felt like anybody who is in the military has a little better perspective on what is really going on. host: got it. caller: to be honest, if tulsa gabbert was running -- which she is not -- i would vote for her in a heartbeat. she is a democrat but she looked at things equally. she did not really care what party you were from. if you had a good idea, she would say so. that is why her democratic colleagues could not stand her. host: all right. sorry, dan.

let's talk to dorothy in pennsylvania, democrat. caller: hi. i am glad you are able to get to me. i want to say something about that satan trump. how dare those people who call themselves republicans say he was the best president we had. that man is satan in disguise and anyone, anyone that votes for him, i put them in the same category. he is a disgrace to the united states. how dare they. and those black people that, on saying they are for trump, they they ought to be a shame themselves. he does not give a dam about like people or anyone of their ilk. the whole republican party a disgrace. and they need to be voted out of office forever. that is all i have to say. i am furious. host: that is the last word for the segment.

thank you for all of those who calledn and participated. we will talk about two issues at the center of the funding battle this week. first, immigration and borr security. krish o'mara vinarajah of the lutheran immigration and refugee service joints to talk about the senate proposal to modify asylum policies in the u.s.. and what that process currently looks like. later we will focus on the issue of military assistance to ukraine. elbridge colby of the marathon initiative joins us for that discussion. we will be right back. ♪ >> friday nights, watch the 2024 campaign trail, a weekly round of campaign coverage covering a one-stop shop to discover where the candidates are traveling and what they are saying to voters. this along with first-hand accounts, updated poll numbers, and campaign ads.

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just look like this, it looks like this, where americans can see democracy at work and where citizens are truly informed, a republic thrives. get informed straight from the source on c-span. unfiltered, unbiased, word firmware -- word for word. from the nation's capital to wherever you are. because the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like, c-span powered by cable. >> washington journal continues. host: welcome back. we are talking about u.s. immigration and asylum policy with our guest krish o'mara vinarajah. she has the president and ceo of the lutheran immigration and refugee service. welcome. tell us about your work at the lutheran immigration refugee service and as it relates to asylum services. guest: lutheran immigration and

refugee service is the largest national nonprofit dedicated exclusively to serving refugees, asylum-seekers and other vulnerable immigrants who have come to the u.s.. we have operated for nearly 85 years in this work of service. we have welcomed 750,000 refugees and immigrants who live here in the united states. in terms of our work with asylum-seekers. these are people who are exercising the legal right to seek asylum fleeing war, persecution and violence. we help them in the immediate term in terms of room and board and helping them get to their final destination, trying to provide legal referrals so they have access and better understanding of how the system works. host: as far as funding goes you take funding from private donations from the public. what else? guest: our funding is a

public-private partnership. as a national settlement agency we partner with the federal government so we work from -- we work with the department of state and health and human services. we also rely on donations from a variety of private service. philanthropic foundations, major corporations and the generosity of everyday americans. host: talking about the negotiations in the senate. both republicans and democrats agree about tightening asylum standards. can you tell us first what they are currently? how does the asylum system work right now and what thresholds do seekers need to meet? guest: the debate right now centers around the standard for credible fear. so, this has been a discussion that originated really decades ago as congress essentially

created the expedited removal proceedings process. that would allow people to be deported without a hearing before a judge. but to mitigate against the risk that people who have a legal right to come to the u.s. would be deported without any possibility of seeking that legal rights, congress created the credible fear interview to aid in a proper adjudication. so this is a luminary screening for people before they would be placed in removal proceedings. during a credible fear interview, and asylum officer interviews the person to determine if there is a significant possibility that they could kind of establish and asylum claim. congress intended the legal standard to be lower they are and what is required for the final grant of asylum, because

the credible fear interview is just a preliminary stage. and so what is being debated is to really throw that system out the door and what was behind congressional intent initially. because it would raise the legal standard to a more likely than not standard. in that way it would contradict the intent in creating the credible fear interview standard back in 1996. host: is there anything the asylum-seekers would need to prove. are they required to show documentation? and then do they have for instance a lower -- a lawyer with them and how does that work? guest: essentially what they need to prove is that there is a credible fear that they have experienced, persecution as a result of their connections to one of five different

categories, so it might be that they were politically persecuted or persecuted because of their religion. it could be that they were persecuted because of their social organizing. so they need to, and that interview, explain why it was that they were specifically targeted as individuals, and if they were returned, they would face a series of threats. and then after they meet the credible fear threshold, they need to submit paperwork which will ultimately, if they do meet credible fear and they are allowed to move forward they will then go before an immigration judge and have additional paperwork to validate things. host: how long does that process usually takes? guest: on average, four years. host: in that four years, i am assuming they are allowed to just stay in the united states. guest: yes.

so some number are not going to meet the credible fear threshold. and they will be put in expedited removal proceedings. and they will be deported. for those who have met the test, they will be allowed to remain in the u.s.. there is a decision that officers make of whether they will go into immigration detention until the hearing or they will be released. knowing that we are talking about parents who are for their lives and to protect their children. who do not pose any sort of national security risk and there is no reason to believe that we would fear their entry into u.s. communities. so most people are allowed to enter communities. for a very small subset, and frankly because this immigration detention has been set up, it is important that a some number of people that will go into

immigration detention. but what we have shown is that there are better ways to manage immigrants and allow them to proceed legally but it is actually far cheaper and still meets the immigration proceedings demands. host: i am going to show a short portion of oklahoma senator james lankford, the lead republican negotiator in the senate border talks. he was talking about this issue of asylum-seekers being let into the country. [video clip] >> those individuals are asking for "asylum" which means i have fear in my home country and there is nowhere i can go to get safety. those people are hearing -- are saying the same thing, i'm coming for opportunity, a job so my family will have a better life. that is not asylum and they do not qualify. the biden administration is not saying you have to apply legally, you cannot cross where we have no criminal background

check, no information about their background or history. many of them do not have documents. they just say what country they are from and their name and they take on a brand-new identity in the united states. everyone sees that as a national security risk other than chuck schumer. in the last two years this white house has had 70,000 people they designated as special interest aliens, individuals from iran, iraq, pakistan and areas of known terrorism that have been released in the country unscreened except other names listed -- are their names listed on a terrorist watch list. 70,000 on the last two years. we had almost 300 people picked up that were on the terror watch list, so the threat is very real on this and we should take it seriously. [end video clip] host: your reaction to that. guest: i think it is important to understand that there is

agreement that if you are seeking asylum you ought to meet the threshold and the requirements for that. economic migrants ought to come in through visa processes. candidly, there is bipartisan agreement that we need more visas for economic reasons and frankly we are undermining ourselves. we have about 9 million jobs that are not filled and only 6 million unemployed americans. there is a real opportunity for us to bring to fruition the win-win that immigration can be economically. that said it is important to understand for the people who are seeking asylum, sometimes people question why they are coming to the southern border for that reason. they are only allowed to exercise their right to asylum if they are on american soil. that is why they are coming to the southern border. i know senator lankford alludes

to the suggestion that migrants are dangerous to our communities. to date -- the reality is that data does not prove that out. whether you are talking about the southern border where you find that by many metric those safer, those 21 counties are to the u.s. border than in the interior. the idea that immigrants are coming to perpetrate crimes could not be further from the truth. the final point is as an immigration advocate i firmly believe that as a sovereign nation we need to know who is coming across the border. we need to have checks and balances to ensure that there is monitoring. that requires us to recognize that for three decades we have had a dysfunctional system. why are the indians and chinese coming through the southern border, wade -- whited 20,000 ukrainians come through the southern border. it was because other pathways

have been precluded because they are backlogged and do not work. we do not need grants, we need leaders to step up and say here is how we fix the problem because if we do not we are undermining our own self-interest. host: we will open the phone shortly so you can start calling in. republicans, 202-748-8001. democrats, 202-748-8000. independents, 202-748-8002. republicans want to do away with humanitarian parole. can you explain what that is and how it works and what the recommendation is? guest: humanitarian parole is a power that every administration has had for decades. it is essentially an authority that allows for an administration to grant temporary status for humanitarian reasons, or when it is in the interest of the public. and so when you kind of talk

about congressional negotiations, it is a real satire any that we are debating -- real sad irony debating a supplemental using ukraine to defend its people and would limit the legal mechanism that many ukrainians used to find safety in the u.s.. the debate right now is some members of congress feel like the administration has misused that system. but i think it is important to understand that this is a temporary pathway. these are not people granted permanent legal status. it is used in crisis situations whether we are talking about ukrainians after putin's invasion or venezuela in recognition of the fact that there is massive instability as a result of an authoritarian regime. host: what is the difference between an asylum seeker and refugee? guest: great question.

a refugee is somebody who has crossed an international border. they have applied through the u.n. or directly through the u.s. government in order to be resettled in a host nation. the u.s. and other western nations participate in the system. they will wait years in a refugee camp or some other country and it is there that the legal process takes place. if they are one of the lucky few , about 1% or less are actually resettled outside of where they are camping out. very few actually get refugee relief. but when they enter a country like the united states the legal process in the uncertainty is over. they will then be allowed to apply for a green card and become citizens. it is a system that has bipartisan support and we have

resettled more refugees under republican and democratic administrations. it is a system that has been created and honed over four decades. an asylum seeker is different because when they arrive at the country they are seeking asylum and that initiates and allows them to begin the process. that is kind of the primary difference. but what is similar is that they may be fleeing for the very same reasons, meaning political or religious persecution. host: we have a question here from jimbo in bakersfield, california. can your guest expla m immigrants fleeing violence in guatal would not seek asylum in mexico as opposed to the united states. would mexico be the first nation to seek asylum? guest: that is a great question. and i think the reality is that when you think about what is happening in mexico it is a safe country.

there been debates about policies if you'd transit through a safe country that would prohibit you from applying for asylum. the sad reality is that when you are coming from guatemala you are going to a country like mexico where on a daily basis you see headlines about gang violence, about the drug cartels, about sexual assaults and murders. so as a result we know from our clients who were even in mexico on a transit basis that they have experienced extreme violence and hardship. and so that is why mexico in many respects -- respects is not a safe country. host: let us bring in the callers. elizabeth up first in las vegas. the democrats. good morning.

caller: how are you? host: good. caller: i just want to say why have we been so lenient? i am pro-immigration and i know that there are a lot of young people who do not want to work. i do not know why, but they are lost. i cannot figure that part out and i'm sure it has to do with drugs. and some commit crimes and some do not. i just do not understand with all of the groups and why we have been so lenient at a time when churches are threatened. synagogues are threatened. yes, those are not those people doing it. most of it are homegrown. but there are some coming in. and why don't we stop this? this is insane. why? politicians use it to get elected and fight with each other at our expense. i voted for trump the first time because i was scared of radical

islam. but, i did and i have to admit it and i am a kennedyite and gay. and if anybody comes to take my civil rights away they are going to be really sorry, and that goes for you ron desantis. host: let us get a sponsor on the immigration asylum part. guest: as a mother of two daughters, i care deeply about the security of our children and ourselves. the reality though is that the numbers do not air out that we allow immigrants in the country we make our country less safe. obviously i mentioned what is happening at the border. when you are talking about refugees, there was a large -- longitudinal study of the top 10 cities with the highest number of refugees per chat -- per capita. it showed that nine out of the 10 were far safer when it came

to commercial crimes and violent crime and petty crime. the one exception was west springfield, massachusetts because it was going through an opioid epidemic so it was difficult to control for that variable. you said it. when we talk about terrorist threats, we are talking about a homegrown fear. when we talk about mass shootings, we are talking about a homegrown fear. if you want to undertake an attack on american soil you do not go through a system like refugee resettlement or a system like asylum because the chances of you coming in through one of the systems is really about the same of you -- as you winning powerball. i think that is where we have to look at the data because these are critical issues like national security and we need to protect our people. the way to do it is not to shut down humanitarian immigration systems because that is not the real source of the problem. host: lance. norfolk, virginia.

independent line. caller: i just want to know one question. when an immigrant's over here and he or she is waiting for their court states, how exactly are they surviving? are they allowed to work? for income? host: yes, go ahead. guest: great question because it is a real hurdle. for those who are seeking asylum they are only allowed to apply once they have been in the country for six months. and then the whole -- the hope is that the work authorization will be expedited so they can get it within a few months after that. but imagine the fact that for so many they are coming with just the clothes on their backs. they have to support themselves for nine months. we as a nonprofit do whatever we can through private resources. we are not funded by the federal

government in order to help asylum-seekers at the moment. this is where we look to churches and community-based organizations and foundations to support them. but that is where we have an opportunity. when we talk to our clients they do not want handouts and they want to work. of course the immigration law precludes that. the only exception is with the humanitarian parolees. these are people allowed to work sooner than that. and so it is a glimmer of hope. but when you see immigrants coming into cities and they are sleeping in very temporary conditions. the hope is that we have a system that works for them and for us because we could use the immigrant labor to fill the jobs going unfilled. host: during those months when they are not allowed to work, or they are able to get food aid or any government assistance? guest: they are not. host: and what their kids be

able to be enrolled in public schools? guest: they would be. there was a supreme court decision that allowed any child regardless of legal status to enroll because they are kids. and when you see the comparison of what happens abroad it is really heartbreaking. you see these kids who are camped out in refugee camps sometimes for nearly a decade and it is essentially a lost generation with no access to education and the ability to create a livelihood for themselves. host: new haven, michigan. kevin. republican line. good morning. caller: how are you? host: good. caller: i just have a comment. i lived in arizona for about 10 years. so i am very familiar with the immigration issue at the southern border. i am also here in michigan in

the northern -- at the northern border. and if you want to talk about a polarizing issue. once again they do have to fix the process somehow, of course there are a million different reasons to come here. but more judges and stuff like that to get these people in here and working. i think that is the main thing. keep them working and whatnot. that is basically all i have. host: any comment. guest: i mean, this is where we have the lowest birth rate since the census has been tracking the issue. our demographics have slowly and will continue to become an -- an

inverted pyramid. if we want to have social security and a vibrant economy it does require us to have immigrants who are authorized to work. and i think there is a real opportunity. host: ralph in augusta, georgia. democrat. good morning. caller: i was calling about the border one thing i would like to say is the civilians in the middle east, they prepared the soldiers to fight. they told me they had to be working and after four months they had to get a job. but what i was saying about the border, i lived in el paso for 32 years. the people that come over here that are looking for jobs and a better life, they are not going to get that in mexico. i am trying to find out asylum.

i thought asylum that -- was once you've gotten to the united states and quickly, are these people that have it, these people you send them to you new york and other places, are they tested before they are shipped out to those states as asylum-seekers? thank you. guest: they are. customs and border protection processes them. they will note their name, they will do screenings and then they are released so long as they meet the legal threshold of a credible fear. and then, obviously we have seen the governors in florida and texas send them by bus to other locales. that are initially entering the u.s. through customs and border

protection. host: i want to ask you about the house version of e cure the border act. i have put it on the scre t remind our guests of what it is. one is to resrthe construction of the border wl, whose personnel and technology at the border. impose asylum distractions and reinstate family detention and require employers to check legal status through e-verify. the one thing i wanted to ask you about is reinstating family detention. what does that mean and what are they proposing? guest: family detention is complicated because there are legal cases that adjudicate standards when it involves a child who has not committed a crime or if his or her parents have not committed a crime, the idea of them being detained. so this has been a past practice that has been ended. there is really no reason or

strong argument for reinstituting it. it is a waste of taxpayer dollars. it essentially requires the children and parents to be detained in government-funded facilities, and many of these have had serious problems. during the pandemic it was troubling to think about having individuals and families in close quarters. this is where it is important for the audience to understand their all -- there are alternatives to detention. our point is that you can meet immigration enforcement needs in terms of making sure that the families show up for their ice bank meeting and you can make sure that we treat them humanely and that we treat children as children, as you would want to do if your child was in an awful circumstances of having to plead for their life and seek relief.

and we can do it at a fraction of the cost of what goes to for-profit private prisons who are taking your taxpayer dollars and earning profits on revenue that is over $1 billion. it does not make sense and it is troubling when you see private prison making donations to members of congress who are trying to encourage this as a new profit model. host: speaking of children and minors coming across, i want to talk about unaccompanied minors and their release into the united states. do you think the biden administration is doing an adequate job of tracking them so they are not abused or trafficked or any other horrible thing happening? guest: it is an important and timely question because in the last several months we have the news articles about child labor and human trafficking is always

an ongoing great concern. we work closely with the department of health and human services to take care of unaccompanied children. one of the things that is important to understand that these are children who the vast majority of them do have a parent or guardian in the united states which is why they are coming. they are not coming without any u.s. ties. this is a matter of family reunification. what we do as we work with children to provide them a safe and family centric home while we work with the sponsors to make sure that the sponsor has the family connection to the child that they say they have and they are not a human trafficker. that we are putting them into a safe family life setting. but, it is important to understand that we cannot just stop our care once they are released because obviously this -- these children could be in a precarious environment. that is why we have advocated

for basically a check-in to make sure that the child is all right. we do think that this would help prevent child labor. you cannot have children working with corrosive chemicals in overnight shifts when they are not actually of the age when they can work. that is what we are seeing meaning that we are turning back time to decades where we had cronyism practices. that is why we have to make sure that every child that is released to a parent or guardian that they are connected to make sure that they are ok. host: brian in albuquerque. independent. good morning. caller: good morning, i would like to throw some cold facts on the table. since we close down ellis island 100 years ago, 6 billion people have been added to the planet. what concerns me when i listen to the activists in the language they use in the ward -- in the

wording, they are implying that everyone on the planet has the right to immigrate to the united states, which is insane. the real underlying issue, and this is a worldwide problem is people migrating from the poor south to the north is overpopulation, but we never talk about overpopulation. we just talk about expanding this and that and letting them all in. i would like to address that the effect of -- on immigration on our labor market and housing market. if you look at the facts since we expanded immigration and change a lot of things in the 60's, wages for average working people in the united states have been flat. i think it is because we have been flooding our markets with labor. i worked construction my whole life and i dealt with this firsthand my entire life. employers are always a bellyaching about they cannot find workers but they cannot find dirt cheap workers.

that is who they want. they want dirt cheap naive immigrants and then the other big problem in this country we have a housing shortage. the average working people cannot afford a place to live and it gets worse and worse. and all i hear the activists say we have to let everyone in. let them in. host: let us get a response. labor market and housing market. guest: i just want to clarify because i do not know if the audio did not work, i never said nor would i ever say that the u.s. needs to let in every single immigrant who comes to the border. i believe we are sovereign nation who needs border control but we need to understand what other countries have done compared to the u.s.. europe took in over 7 million ukrainian refugees.

last year and the year before the u.s. took in 11,000 refugees and 25,000 refugees and it is a small fraction. countries like jordan and turkey with far fewer resources than the united states which is supposed to be and is the superpower of the world. so when you want to think about how we protect our stature -- stature in the world's understanding that if we do not step up other countries will. when you look at the job market and countries we compete against like china there is a reason where china has gone to a one child policy to advocating for two to three children. it is because we cannot sustain our economic superpower status and less we have immigrants. and that is not just to fill the lower skilled jobs but to innovate. roughly half of the fortune 500

companies that are a key part of the u.s.'s economy and the economic engine were created by immigrants or their children. as for the affordable housing issue, you could take every single immigrant out of our cities and other communities and we would still have an affordable housing challenge. that is a reality of a problem that we have, and to blame it on immigrants is to ignore the reality of what america is facing right now. host: curtis in pembroke, georgia. republican. you are next. caller: i am glad you had the guest on this morning. i was in combat in iraq 2005 to 2006. the biggest point that i want to make this morning is the fact that we got all of these people coming in at the border. three years ago whether you like the last administration or not, they had it down to a trickle.

they were on their way to putting this stuff on hold. and we know that anything that the government, our government does is full of bureaucracy and -- our government does not do things well. and this problem is a snowball problem. it just keeps getting bigger and bigger. but i just want to make the point that our people in our congress, senates, the president and his administration, they took an oath to protect and defend this country. we know that people have gotten through our border. it only takes one. i do not want to hear all of the stuff about asylum and anything else. first of all, it has to stop. this stuff has to stop because we only takes one and we are

right back to september 11. i thank you for letting me vent this morning. host: go ahead. guest: first and foremost, thank you for your service, truly grateful. again, i want to stress that when it comes to national security it is certainly a priority of the administration based on my conversations with them. and it is certainly a priority for the head of an immigration organization like myself because the reality is if we are undermining our security and we are undermining our immigration system. the question is how do we have a system that works in terms of making sure that we vet those who come across the border or through other immigration pathways. and that is where we have opportunities to improve. it is important to acknowledge what we do which is where you take the refugee resettlement system. these are individuals who go

through biometric checks, vetting done by the fbi and the department of homeland security, more broadly. these are some of the most extremely vetted individuals that come into the u.s.. when you talk about for example our afghan allies who came in the last few years, these are people who served alongside our u.s. military troops. they put their lives on the line in order to protect ours. and we made a pledge to them which was if you served alongside us and took those risks, and put your family in harms way, for example the taliban retribution, that we would take care of them. absolutely our first and foremost priority is national security, but it is also important to understand that national security requires a working immigration system. for every 21st century war that we have or will wage we will

require local interpreters and drivers and our troops need those people. host: i want to show you a headline from "the washington examiner" saying that the arizona border crossing closes in response to a surge of thousands of illegal immigrants. what is in your view, what needs to happen to alleviate that pressure on the border? guest: i was on a panel last year with the former governor of arizona and we had a robust and positive discussion. i think it is important to acknowledge that border security is not entirely a localized issue. there is agreement across-the-board between what some of your viewers have alluded to and our policies that we are advocating for witches we should not have economic peace applicants trying to come -- back -- economic visa applicants

trying to come through the asylum system or those trying to reunite coming across the southern border. the problem that we see when the southern border seems to be the only system operating, it creates this incentive for a movement through that pathway. and so that is where the system across the border needs to be improved. they did a study that for every economic visa authorized you reduce irregular illegal immigration by two. our point is that we need a humanitarian system that works for refugees. we need to have the economic visas that support our economy and we had a family reunification system that works so parents and children are not separated for two decades as we see. and the southern border, we really do -- we should only be allowing for those limited

asylum claims that are appropriate. and that is a system where you would not see those types of surges. host: bernard in buoy, maryland. democrat. caller: hello. i have been working with immigrants all of my life. and most of the people who are claiming asylum, you cannot have 85% of the people saying that they all fear for their life. they are not just five guys walking around the country just killing people. this is ridiculous. people are getting paid for starting nonprofits and help in getting these people in. if there was no money involved i do not believe you guys would be doing this.

i have seen people leave the job site, go pick up information for different paperwork to start working again because the office called and said you cannot work your papers ran out. you work with people and you look at them and you know that they are 18 and 19 years old but if you look at their paperwork they are saying 40 and 50. host: any response? guest: i am not sure what the question was, but may be to rephrase it a little bit? host: we will move on to mike in houston, texas. republican. good morning. caller: good morning. i think there is a reason that the immigrants are fleeing their homelands, and doing so at risk that we know the girls and women are getting raped on the way up, many of them, and that is not

discussed at all. they are fleeing socialism and that economies and just states of abject poverty. most of them a three to four dollars a day. so we can keep letting them in but that is treating symptoms. you mentioned our economy and the united states doing so much. the reason we can do so much as we have a largely free-market economy where private property rights exist. when you have prosperity like that, that is where people can take risks. they cannot do that in these third world countries. and the vetting process. i am sorry, but i am not accepting that these people are vetted properly. the notion that they will come here and become nasa astronauts in 10 years. i am sure the kids have a chance

to do that because they are from the united states. we cannot afford to have all these people come in. the united states is a nation around the world we are the global enforcer of trade routes around the world, so what are we doing as a nation? we are making sure that piracy is not a routine thing happening around the world of cargo ships and so forth. the safety around the world is secured by our military. so we are doing a lot already around the world to help people and trade. there are a lot of things we do that under the radar that we just take for granted. we are very lucky to live here. but we cannot accept everybody. there is no way we can absorb this in the school system, for example. our institutions, emergency rooms. look at the small hospitals in arizona and texas and find out that the emergency rooms are full and wide. host: what do you think of that? guest: great point on raising

the emergency rooms because the emergency rooms are not just full of immigrants on our side. they are full of immigrants in the doctors, nurses and aides. during the pandemic we lost one in five health care workers. when you look at the demographics of the health care sector, you have an extreme overrepresentation of immigrants in that arena. and that is where it is important to understand where immigrants play a role. it is not just construction or creating jobs. it is taking care of our parents and taking care of our children. and that is what i think, of course we play an outsized role low believe, but it is important to understand just as i described with health care and how it is contingent on having an immigrant workforce national security concerns of us waging

wars and defending our interest also is contingent on the support of local people like the afghans and iraqi allies who sometimes come to the u.s. under special immigrant visas. i think it is important to understand the reality that plays in and how immigrants are an essential part of protecting the world and prosperity that americans are lucky enough to have. host: krish o'mara vinarajah is president and ceo of the lutheran immigrant and refugee service on the web at lirs.org. thank you for joining us. guest: thank you for having me. host: and that is me -- that is it for this section. coming upheld ridge cold ridge -- elbridge colby talks about the war in ukraine and what

further assistance to kyiv will mean. but first it is open forum. you can start calling you now, the numbers are on your screen. ♪ >> c-span's studentcam documentary competition is back celebrating 20 years with the theme looking forward while considering the past. we are asking middle and high school students to create a five to six minute video addressing one of these questions. in the next 20 years what is the most important change he would like to see in america. or over the past 20 years what is been the most port change in america. as we do each year we are giving away $100,000 in total prizes with a grand prize of $5,000.

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explore the american story, watch american history tv on c-span2 and find a full schedule on your programuide or watch online anytime at c-span.org/history. all this month watch the best of c-span's q&a. on sunday, daryl davis who has been offended -- befriended members of the ku klux klan. use issue and and author sunday night at 8:00 eastern on q and a. you can listen to that and all of our podcasts on our free c-span now app. >> c-span's campaign 2020 four coverage continues with the presidential primaries and caucuses. watch live on the c-span networks as the first votes are

cast in the presidential election along with canada speeches and results beginning with the iowa caucuses and the new hampshire primary on january 23. campaign 2024 on c-span, your unfiltered view of politics. >> a healthy democracy does not just look like this, it looks like this where americans can see democracy at work and where citizens are truly informed a republic thrives. get informed straight from the source on c-span, unfiltered, unbiased, word for word from the nation's capital to wherever you are. because the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span, powered by cable. >> washington journal continues. host: welcome back. it is open forum.

you can set the agenda and we will talk about anything you want public policy wise, politics and things happening in washington. i am going to start with the jobs numbers that have just come out this morning from the labor department. here is ", the new york times" the november jobs report, it continues to be robust with employment growing at a healthy pace in november, a sign that the labor market remains solid. the economy added 199,000 jobs last month." and you can see the historical trend there from a year ago, november 20 22nd of jobs added. and nancy is first from houston, texas. independent. caller: yes, i wanted to talk to the lady you had on before but that is ok. she reminds me so much of those

who say that the border is closed and it is not closed and it has not been closed one day since biden and his administration took office. kamala harris was supposed to be on the border and she has not done that. they are doing this on purpose to change our country. our tax dollars -- we are supporting these people. they are coming in from china and all over t country. there is no other country that has a bord like ours. and they are doing it on purpe. they c sit there with their straig faces and give all of the oldrop talk -- bull crap talk and it will not change the fact that it is being done on purpose. host: barry in cincinnati, ohio. i'm actually an independent -- caller: i am actually an

independent. but i think this is about population control. it is the vaccinations and it is about the survival of the fittest. we are the only major country that has retired -- the draft. we should want to serve. there are too many people that are congressmen, senators and presidents who have never served. we need to raise the bar. unless you have served in the military you should not be allowed to run for those offices. thank you. host: susan in wyoming. republican. good morning. caller: i also wanted to ask a few questions of your previous guests. number one, is she lutheran? number two, what is her salary? number three, how much are the taxpayers of this country supporting noncitizens in this country?

and how much better our their lives than our veterans who are homeless on the streets? our veterans who are being kicked out of assisted living facilities to make room for illegal immigrants? the homeless, do they get places in high end hotels in new york city? we are destroying our country with this border. it is an open border, and they do not assimilate. it is taking a toll on everything, honor hospitals, schools, families, on crime, on the poverty levels. this is insane, and she is insane. thank you. host: john in alamo, california. caller: hello.

i was also tied to the earlier person. i guess my question had to do with talking about immigration and also homeless people. we never put those two issues together. but it has to do with who is willing to work for a super low-wage and the profitability of people. now when i go over to home depot or whatever there is a group about 30 or 40 people waiting to be picked up to do some kind of job. so when she talked about people are not allowed to work, trust me you go there there is a cash and carry relationship. it is an economic thing. i would like to see the government, with a subsidized minimum-wage for someone who is a permanent resident or u.s. citizen, and also on the border, if you are going to come in, you

have to have documentation justifying that you might qualify. there should be a triage before you get into the country. let us say you are 20 or 30 years old and it will take four years to get to court. you could produce one or two children in that process if you are a young couple. so then when you show up in court let's say you have no evidence to allow you to come in, but then again you claim i represent two u.s. citizens who were born in the country, how can you kick us out? it is crazy the way we have it set up. we need to look at the minimum wage and what do undocumented aliens work for? i am sure it is minimum-wage or below. thank you. host: greg in texas. democrat. morning. caller: i want to say when the illegals, when their parents

came over here and the lawyers in texas in this country are going along with these mexicans and getting them this money to find a mis-located kid, i know my time is going be cut, those mexicans do not care about that, especially people of color they see you of the construction site they want to bully you. they will take your job for you. host: let us go to vince in mount joy, pennsylvania. republican. caller: good morning. my point swings a little way from everybody else. i have not heard anyone talk about the importance of the constitution and the history of the country. i blame all of our politicians. they all swore an oath and yet we have an open border.

i swear by the first amendment, new york just had a second judge pass a law that they are allowed to film in the lobbies of police stations. . i have not heard one drop of news about it anywhere. but our constitution and the history of this country is important. and i am surprised at the americans that do not know the constitutional rights and are putting people of authority over americans like in florida with the cubans that work in government buildings in the post office and etc. and taxpayers are paying -- paying out millions of dollars in lawsuits. host: good morning. caller: these people are complaining about immigration. i would like to go before 1948, israel and arab countries or whatever, a lot of people don't

realize the history. it started off with the rothschilds. they controlled all the banking and the u.k. then you get to the 1916 agreement, where they kind of split the ottoman empire, which was started in the 1400s, so, actually, it was like 90% or 80% arab in the country when jews started moving in. and then they split that with great britain, and then you gotta get to the declaration in 1917, and they had belford and they had an agreement that started in israel country or whatever in palestine, which was an 80%, but they were already

starting living there, and then you have to go to remember lawrence of arabia, they went in and got him to help. he was actually a british soldier, and they got the turks in the ottoman empire, and then you have to get to 1923 -- host: bringing us to today, what are your thoughts on today? caller: like to immigration, that is what it is all about you have to go back to the immigration on this. the jews actually started to move into their, and they actually moved arabs out, and the british government, the actually came out of the white paper, trying to eliminate the immigration because they were moving in so much, and they already promised the arabs that they could stay out of the ordeal, but that never came about. they kept turning on that. anyway, they kept moving them

in, and then pretty soon, the british government tried to stop it. then you have the jewish prime minister of israel, he turned into a terrorist and was bombing ships, hotels, and anything else. you can check into it. and then they actually turned it over to the un because he could not control it, they had the arabs fighting the jews, and then their revolt and the big war 1938. host: there was a lot of history there. we cannot go through all of it. victor in pennsylvania, independent. good morning. caller: really enjoy your show. i tuned in about two months ago, and, you know, just wanted to make a comment on your last guest from immigration. basically, there are a lot of things i want to say but not a lot of time, so if you will give me a few minutes to express a few things. number one, i want everyone to think about all the money in the united states pay out to these

countries, south america, etc. i would really like someone to take a deep breath and do some research and see whether or not where all the money is going to these countries that we are paying money out to for infrastructure and their education and jobs, housing, adequate, etc. it is very important, because we are giving this money, and i gratian is coming here, and they say there -- and migration is coming here, and they say they are fleeing for their lives, which is a total lie, but what they need to do is build up their own countries. we keep giving them money, and they are not building up their countries, and they are not -- and we are not being a watchdog. that is like if you give your child money to go shopping, you want to see what she brings back from shopping. you want to monitor that. we have the people in this

country there living on the streets that can take the places of migrants. i am 67 years old, i live in philadelphia, and when i was young, there used to be people who would come in our neighborhood and go pick cherries, grapes, stuff like that. i never went, but there were people who would come in the neighborhoods, go to the labor, and bring it back. we have all that we need. i am for immigration, but legally. but it is very irresponsible for a parent to cross over to another place like our country and so forth, and put their children's lives in danger. host: unless, victor, they feel that their children would be worse off if they stayed. i mean, i think any parent would make that kind of calculation.

john in ventura, california, good mng. caller: good morning, mimi. i was going to call lynn about discussing politics at anksgiving dinner and christmas dinner. after that last guest, i uld like to make one comment that nobody brought up, andhat is that the immigrants send money back to their untry of origin. i live in a farmingommunity in ventura, and the farmers here, the pickers and stuff here, they send about $50 a week to their country of origin, if you multiply that by 10 million, that is $26 billion a year sent back to countries of origins by people here illegally, and what it does to the merchants in the inner cities is devastating. it takes money right out of our

economy where they needed most in the middle and low income areas of our communities. they need the money, but it is not being spent there. it is being spent south of the border, so it is a big problem. really, i wanted to call in about thanksgiving dinner, mine was wonderful. we had about 22 people. it was all family members, all different persuasions, and we decided to discuss politics. it was wonderful because what we did was we passed a wooden spoon, and whoever got it, got to speak for a short time. got to go over all the issues. we went over immigration, the economy, national debt, and we really got an interesting point of view from everybody there, and then we said, what is best for our family? what is best for who is -- you know, what is best for us as a family altogether?

and we all agreed, republicans and democrats, we all agreed we should vote for donald trump. the guy has really helped the economy. he is a straight shooter. he has press conferences. he is transparent. even after all this discussion and division in the media, we were able to give everybody a say and come out with a solution, and when you have a choice between donald trump and joe biden, there is no choice. donald trump is the guy. i really appreciate you being here, and i really appreciate c-span. host: we appreciate you, too. joseph in silver spring, maryland. democrat. caller: hello. i would like to call and comment on previous callers. one, it is u.s. employers who are employing the aliens. i am not going to say illegal, but i will cite undocumented.

those aliens, immigrants, are doing jobs americans will not do, like farm workers, landscapers, construction workers, and, yes, many are sending money back to central and south america, but, of course, what would you want? these people prefer day would come here with their families, and more immigrants come to the united states, with children that tax the school system. also, this began, and i don't know why it is never mentioned, this began in the 1980's when ronald reagan was conducting secret wars, illegal wars against nicaragua, using our funding groups to fight what he said to be communism or socialism in central america and south america, but that turned

out to be discovered, and the funding was cut off by the congress and those groups went independent and started their own cartels. it revolved into cartels today that run the countries or governments. of course, there are "governments" down there, but the cartels run what is going on in the streets, and, of course, people are terrified that if you don't work for us, we will cut off your head in front of your family. so if you want to play something, play ronald reagan and his decision to conduct secret wars specifically against nicaragua, but also to fund those groups that ran el

salvador at the time. host: victoria in rockwall, texas, republican. caller: good morning. i had a comment for the last guest talking about immigration. i am a disabled veteran and a former educator, and i am fed up. everything is geared toward migrants, migrants, migrants. there are 18 million veterans in the u.s. that fought for this country and sacrificed for this country. i am a disabled veteran, having problems with tricare, getting enrollment to where i can get adequate medical care. the other issue is that a couple of weeks ago, there was a comment about is the american dream still alive? the american dream is still alive, but it is not a life for americans. many foreigners that come to this country -- let we start by saying, i am not is committing against any immigrants.

anyone comes illegally should be allowed to stay, but when you violate the law, there are consequences. as an educator on the other side, i can see that those who are prospering are foreigners. they are taking advantage on the student loan forgiveness, and they are also being given special treatment with the media, talking about immigrants. what about veterans? we have homeless veterans in this country on the educational side and students who do not want to attend school because most of them in charter schools are immigrants, and they are working for $17 an hour, where as you have retired teachers with masters degrees, doctoral degrees, and they want us to work for 25,000 hours. how fair is that you have a high school student, uneducated, cannot read or write, and most

companies advertise $17 an hour for students. host: richard in augusta, maine, good morning. independent. caller: i i'm calling to say as far as the open border goes, there is treason at the border by the biden administration. that is the biggest threat to national security in this country. even the fbi director says that now. he did not say it back when it first started, but now he is saying that. all they do is cover up her joe biden. the first investigation in a 9/11 was in the state of maine because there were people from pakistan, and the local and state police do not know about it.

that was in 1999 and cornered off in 2001. right now, we have millions of people in this country who will probably think about doing the same thing, and it is all on joe biden. another fact is, the u.s. has 4% of world population, yet, we have 16% to 17% of their deaths. a lot of that can be tribute it to joe biden's open border, where he was pressing people all over the country, which was the biggest covid spreader in this country. host: moving on to john in brooklyn, new york. democrat. good morning. caller: [no audio] host: john, you there? caller: yes, hello? host: go right ahead. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call.

i appreciate it. i was just calling concerning haiti and the united states policy. the policy on haiti does not seem to be working very well for the people from haiti, and i was wondering if there were any experts from haiti with united nations to discuss the people of haiti, and talk about their national elections, or maybe the military in haiti, [indiscernible] since the assassination of their leader in 2021.

i am hoping that patients can come together to help the people. host: thank you for the suggestion. mark in south carolina, republican. caller: good morning. i am talking on that i was an immigrant, and back in the early 1960's, they did have laws that even my parents and myself, we had to go see doctors to be vaccinated and to be up-to-date with american vaccinations. also, my father had to be sponsored by my aunt who was already living here, that they would pay the wages if he could not find work, so he had to actually have work when he came here, and he found work right away and was working, and it should still be the way but they

change the laws in the mid-60's under the democrat party, where they get away with some of these laws where no vaccinations are required now, you just come in, and i am glad that my parents made the move from ireland to the united states. i am now retired here. i left new york because of the state of new york has gone to the pits. i lived in a nice red state -- i live in a nice red state of south carolina, where people work hard. the thing is, you need to go back to where they have to have sponsors so that our economy from new schools, new hospitals can be built. everyone has got to pay. i see people that -- i have seen people to have lexus suv's, and then they go to church and collect free clothing. this is not fair to the

americans. that is my comment. host: let's talk to chris in illinois, democrat. good morning. chris? are you there? caller: yes, yes, i am here, good morning. thank you for taking my call. i just wanted to take this from another perspective. i think that what the politicians and what other folks are doing is a problem on the wrong end, like trying to build a wall and all of these things, not really of some of this immigration problem, and i would suggest that c-span look at maybe sponsoring a discussion either on "washington journal" or somewhere else where they can talk about some of the problems like resource problem of all the resources from some of these countries are being moved to countries like the west, so

people are just moving with the flow of resources. the other thing is that the governments in these countries have very bad policies, which are forcing their people out, so if the u.s. can try to push those governments to do better, it may help some of their people to stay home and not decide to make the move, and i don't hear a lot of people talking about trying to work from that and to solve the problem. -- that end to solve the problem, so maybe there is a lot of work to be done there. host: donna in louisiana, republican. caller: good morning. i just happen to come across a video that was put on twitter, and it says, cannot make this stuff up, here's biden it nearly a decade ago, sitting next to none other than mayorkas talking about the grand right-wing myth known as the great replacement

theory. turns out it is not a conspiracy theory. it is the basic immigration policy to democrats. and they have c-span in the right-hand corner, so you probably can put that video on if you had them on before. another thing i wanted to mention, my brother-in-law came into this country from honduras back in the early 1960's. when he came in, they told him that you either join the military or go back to your country. and he was on the front lines as a non-citizen seeing terrible things in vietnam. that is another thing, when these young men are coming into the country, you ought to hand them -- they would hand them a card and say you were going to the military. that is another idea about this immigration stuff. hopefully something can be done about it. host: and that is all the time we have got for open forum.

next, elbridge colby of the marathon initiative discusses the senate efforts this week to approve additional funding for ukraine and the invocations of further assistance on other u.s. national security priorities. we will be right back. ♪ >> book tv every sunday on c-span2 features leading authors discussing tir latest nonfiction books. at 8:00 p.m. eastern, a seattle-based talk radio host and author of "what is killing

america" looks at democrat run cities across america. 10:00 p.m. on afterwards, a wall street journal technology reporter a author of "broken code: inside facebook in the fight to expose its harmful secrets," talking about the challenges the platform faces. he is interviewed by sarah fryer from bloomberg. watch book tv every sunday on c-span2 and find a full schedule on your program guide or watch online anytime that book tv.org -- at booktv.org. ♪ >> friday night, watching c-span's 2024 campaign trail, a roundup of c-span's campaign coverage, providing a one-stop shop to discover where the candidates are traveling across the country and what they say to voters. this, along with firsthand accounts from political reporters updating fundraising data and campaign ads. watch c-span's 2024 campaign

trail, friday night at 7:00 eastern on c-span, online at c-span.org, or download the podcast on c-span now, our free mobile app, or wherever you catch your podcasts. c-span, your unfiltered view of politics. ♪ >> c-span now is a free noble app featuring your unfiltered view of what is happening in washington, live and on-demand. keep up with today's biggest events with live streams of floor proceedings and hearings from u.s. congress. campaigns, and more from the world of politics, all at your fingertips. you can also stay current with the latest episodes of washington journal and find scheduling information for c-span tv networks and radio, plus, a variety of compelling podcasts. c-span now is available at the google play in the apple store.

c-span now, your front row seat to washington, anytime, anywhere. >> healthy democracy does not just look like this, it looks like this, where americans can see democracy at work, where citizens are truly informed, a republic thrives. get informed straight from the sources on c-span, unfiltered, unbiased, word for word, from the nation's capital to wherever you are because the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span, powered by cable. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back to "washington journal." we are joined by elbridge colby, of the marathon initiative, and assistant secretary in the trump administration. host:host: welcome to the

program. you cofounded the initiative in 2019. tell us about the mission and how you are funded. guest: it is a 501(c) small think tank founded by my partner and myself, and its mission is to prepare the nation for an era of sustained power competition by focusing on developing strategies and keep rigorous work and if people are interested, people can go to themarathon initiative.org. host: why than a marathon? guest: it refers to the battle of marathon which happened in 490 bc, the persians invaded the city of athens, but the athenians recognized they would be better off beating them at the beach rather than waiting for them to get to the city. it is an example of a well formulated and planned strategy.

host: talking about ukraine now, and the discussions about more aid to ukraine, what is your position on that? guest: i think the invasion of ukraine is an evil act by the russians and i morally support ukrainian defense, but the u.s. needs to face the fact that we cannot do everything in the world and we are way behind on the primary issue based on a geopolitical perspective, which is trying to dominate asia, and we are not gaining in asia by spending in ukraine, as many claimed, and we would have been better served with a lot more of that money to use in the pacific. i think there are things that we can continue to provide to the ukrainians, like tanks, but particularly the europeans should step up. i am also supportive of securing our border, meaningfully, which i know is the issue of the day. realistically at this point, i think the war is not going very well, and we are heading towards

stalemate at best. the key here is for the europeans to step up and have more realistic policy than the liberalism that the administration and some republicans have advocated for the last two years. host: let's talk about china. the threat to the u.s. from a rising china? guest: it is very concrete and american formed policy for a long time is something that sounds remote but it is concrete, which is that potentially hostile state could dominate huge part of the global economy. this is why we got into world war ii, the cold war, did not want him to take over europe, and china i think is building a military that i believe is an aspiration to dominate asia, which will be upwards of 50% of gdp in the future. if china is able to do that and they have strong reasons to want to do that to secure a

geoeconomics fear to secure its further growth, especially in economic headwinds it is confronting, americans will be core because the chinese will gate keep over 50% of gdp, and the latin americans and europeans will fall in line, and they will use their leverage to take the best jobs, companies, educational institutions, the world's currency, etc., and make them in china but not the u.s. it does not mean we have to turn china into a full stream democracy, but we need a balance of power. we don't need to dominate them, but we need to hold the line militarily. host: when you mentioned the amount of aid going to ukraine and that europe needs to step up, i would like to show from the council and foreign relations the couple of charts. this first is a u.s. aid to ukraine in real dollars, and you

can see the first one here is institutions, the second, the u.s., and then all the rest, but then there is this one, and that is by share of gdp. it says norway and eastern european countries are giving the most to ukraine as far as gdp, so you can see here norway tops the list, then lithuania, and all the way down here is the u.s. much farther down on the list of gdp. what do you make of that? guest: it is not a contest. wars are not won by gdp but scale. it is great that norway has the top of the list, but the way to look at this is that the most important european countries need to do more for ukraine and themselves, and the thing that those things do not compare is that we are way behind on defense, which the administration has said is a

priority, which is china, and the facing scenario with taiwan, and they have assessed we are on a trajectory to losing the war with taiwan. president biden is out there saying that vladimir putin is going to run russia, which is a dramatic exaggeration. they are having faculty defeating the ukrainian army alone in eastern ukraine, and the notion they will arch to the english channel is ridiculous. china, on the other hand, has 200 times shipbuilding capacity of the u.s. it has some things with supersonic's that are scientists do not know was possible, 10 times gdp of russia, a different magnitude. it was about status, it might be different thing. americans expand the percent, over 3% of our income. check what they spend in norway and denmark. in germany, they spend 1.4% and what they get is low, despite the german government's claim of a so-called movement, they

cannot put a single brigade in the field. in 1998, when their own extra on the line, they had both active divisions. they can do better. this is not about the nazi history but willpower. since the simple mental has slowed down and congress, the europeans have stepped up. because they are rational adults and see what is going on. they know that this is in their neighborhood and they need to take the lead on it. host: we will start taking your calls, so you can start calling in now. the lines are open, republicans, (202)-748-8001. democrats, (202)-748-8000 .independent s, (202)-748-8002. talk about the divisions within the republican party on ukraine. you have some that are in favor of continuing aid to ukraine and some that are against it. guest: sure. there is a common trope that there is a division between internationalists and isolationists. i think this is false and not helpful, useful or insightful to refrain it. i think the european council on

formations put out a nice article laying out the spring vote. it is private since, george bush type problem -- george w. bush type policy, and this group things that we need to be dominant, we need to dominate asia. we cannot make choices and we need to double defense spending. this group is significant in the senate and among house committee leadership because those people tend to have been elected 20, 30, 40 years ago. on the other extreme, you have what are called restrainers, like senator rand paul, who say that every outside intervention is a mistake and we cannot do that. where i think republican party is moving and the future of the administration woodland is prioritizers. we cannot let china run russia

and overall in asia, and the restrainers are right that we should not have invaded iraq or had grandiose nationbuilding programs, and we should have been a lot more careful, and we should have been more careful about using american people support up and spending a tremendous amount of money on weapons in the context of ukraine. so you focus on china, you argue for a higher defense budget, you recognize that there is not a lot of appetite for it. both leading presidential candidates took social security off the table. republican house does not look like it will increase defense spending. if anything, it could be in the other direction. so that is the reality we are living with, and a lot aree traditional republicans who say, don't listen to these more skeptical voices. i don't think that did the europeans or ukrainians any favors because this was clearly going to happen. no republican administration, even if governor haley were elected, i don't think she could actually pursue

the agenda she is talking about because the american people are not going to support doubling the defense budget because it is in such bad shape that it will take years to fix, so we have to make hard choices and focus on what is more important, and everybody does that. if you run a business big or small, take the priority. the administration and republicans say the priority is china. host: the administration said the pacing threat is china. they said the acute threat is russia, so let's go through the scenario here, if ukraine were to lose the war and president zelenskyy said if the u.s. is not support us, we will lose this war, geopolitically, what does a victorious putin do? guest: china is an acute threat. i have had this conversation with numbers of congress. china is the most significant threat. it is a long-term threat if you

survived the near term. people in the pentagon said it was a long-term threat, but they could invade in the near term. there are generals who have said that it could happen two years from now, and 5, 7 years, look how long it will take to replace things, so it is cute, like the analogy i use is an heart disease. you may not have had that heart attack at, but if you are not prepared, you are dead. i don't think the russians are a joke. i think they are serious, etc., but they are 1/10 the gdp of china. host: so what happens? guest: i don't know. right now you have seen on the whole that it is very difficult for either side to conduct a concise offensive military operation when both sides are generated, and the russians have taken significant losses and already regenerated their

military forces, so i think they will be a threat. i think the most possible outcome is there would be some kind of a stalemate or korea style situation somewhere in eastern ukraine, which we may not recognize, but what would be the consequence of that? i think it would be tolerable for the u.s., not great, i prefer ukrainians to win, but a lot of people talk about the victory and not living in reality, even if we had given the ukrainians f-16s, i don't think it would have made a transformational difference because that is what we are seeing. host: last question before calls, wet message with the u.s. not supporting ukraine are ending their support for ukraine give to the chinese as far as, well, i can take taiwan, i just have to survive for 1.5 years, maybe two years? host: a, it depends how we act. in addition to securing the border, should amp up our

readiness of ourselves and our allies like taiwan in the pacific, so that will be a critical point.what matters with the chinese is how strong and focused we are. in vietnam, we won, and we decided to get focused, and if we don't do as much as necessary in asia, that will be a disaster. the fate of taiwan is going to be determined in ukraine. you know how we know that is not true? who cares about taiwan the most of the world other than one? the people's republic of china. if they thought what you are suggesting that the fate of taiwan would fall into ukraine, they would directly intervene in the ukrainian war, but, no, the situation for china is even better than a decisive russian victory because it has eroded american money, willpower, and they have a dependent russia, so this is a talking point that is

not real. it is a factor that they are looking up at the main factors are military readiness, which is inaccurate -- inadequate, and three senior administration officials told politico around the time of the meeting with xi jinping that the purpose was to stabilize the relationship because they said we are to consume -- they literally said this, by ukraine, the middle east, and the reelection campaign, so, obviously, the way to solve the taiwan problem is to get ready for taiwan, not ukraine. host: a lot of people want to talk to you. john, los angeles, democrat. caller: good morning. i have an issue. we do spend a lot of money demonizing china, and demonizing our own people, as well, hunter

biden, fentanyl, things that we could be spending money on. i think we need to rein in our spending on war and think about spending money on things like diplomacy. host: what do you think? guest: thanks, john. i would say that fentanyl strikes me as pretty did not make. i don't demonize china. have a lot of respect for china and have family connection to china for many years. in fact, i respect them so much that i take them so seriously. if you genuinely want peace, you would follow my policy because if you pursue a more pacifist view, the chinese are building up at an historic level and the democratic administration says weakness is going to invite a war, and we are going to be worse off. host: in michigan, independent. caller: yes. your discussion of ukraine, a

country that is actually doing the fighting for itself for a change is kind of surprising to me. compared to the $7 trillion we spent and the amount of bodies and lives lost in the middle east for absolutely no reason, but we are sending to the people of ukraine, to me, to stop the russians cold, is a drop in the bucket, and your logic just seems absurd to me, sir. guest: well, bob, i agree about the middle east, they were the major mistake in the initial mission against al qaeda and osama bin laden and the taliban. i think we would be over $150 billion is a drop in the bucket, with all due respect, that is tremendous money that could have gone to a bigger threat. i also admire with the ukrainians are doing, but the chinese are much bigger threat

than the russians because of the scale of their economy, sophistication, etc., and we have used up munitions, ground weapons, that we assume the chinese would get sure if there is an attack on taiwan, and one of the elite economic commentator of wall street journal commented on how our problems will not be solved with more money. we are in a situation of what they called scar city, and we need to follow through on the most important threat, which is acute, just china. host: the president has said that the weapons and munitions we are sending to ukraine is all old stuff and we are getting new stuff, so that would indicate that we are in fact modernizing, which is what we need to do against china. guest: it is sleight-of-hand. the president is not the only one. we have sent rings that would be useful, but also a lot of air

defenses, and a lot of money behind it itself, and a critical part of this is not just the finished weapon relevant, but it is turbo fans or missiles, these kinds of things. and as it was rightly pointed out, the defense industrial base is like a boa constrictor with a big rabbit. it is slow to digest, so we are behind. they were supposed to receive weapons earlier in this decade, and they will not receive it until 2024. unfortunately, we have to anticipate, so the notion that we are spending a lot of money and fixing our problems is not accurate. if you are going to solve the problem, solve the problem you're trying to solve, the taiwan defense problem, which we are way behind on. host: ana maria is next. in florida, republican caller: good day. thank you for taking my call. i agree with much of mr. colby,

and i disagree with some of it. unfortunately, we did not step up when we needed to for ukraine. i know is this people who lived here in this community, and they are, how do you say? split. they are there for their country, and they also need the support to make it stop. it is not going to go away by not giving any support. it is not going to help the situation, but accountability needs to be done. all the taxpayers money needs to know where it is going. all i can say is god help us. guest: my position is not to cut them off, but we have priorities as a nation and we have to make sure we get them with the amount of money the american people are willing to spend. i would put the taiwan defense and securing the border above ukraine. we can -- as i write my article over the summer, capabilities

that manifest not necessarily for a taiwan fight, let's give them to the ukrainians, that's fine because there is no possible need for them and no replacement. for instance, it is supplemental. to your point about we are getting better, $61 billion for ukraine, $2 billion which was called a joke on supplemental, $2 billion for taiwan and other countries, and $3 billion for submarines. submarines are essential for taiwan, and we are supposed to give a few to the australians, and you are telling me this is a prioritization? let's be serious. host: john in virginia says, what should i read that articulates mr. colby's ideology, or does he have a book or article he wrote? guest: thank you. i have a book, "the strategy of denial," from yale university press that came out in 2021.

i think it is more relevant now, so i hope you will take a look. host: jared in texas, democrat. caller: good morning. i am not a professional but i do follow politics. your organization is kind of an answer to the problem that was created by the republicans. i will try to get historical points. one obama was in office in around 2014, they started a plan to modernize or start training the ukrainians because they knew the russians were going to invade. money well spent. and then while he was in office, he had the small asian companies come up with an agreement, so

there was a plan in place to deal with china by the cooperation of all these other small countries in asia that was decimated. also, prior to the health issue we just had with covid, there was also a department put in place to deal with covid type issues. host: that is a little off our topic. guest: i would just say that the obama administration had its right idea with its pivot to asia early, but the biggest problem was it was not implemented, and it was insufficiently focused on the military, so if you look at the end of the administration, defense officials said we were falling behind on the china military challenge, so one of the things the trump administration focused on early was to identify china as a primary challenge and take the upper line, which the biden administration has pursued

because a lot of people served in the obama administration and the biden administration came, and that is one of the areas of biggest continuity across these administrations. if anything, they were inclined to go in the other direction. they saw the intelligence and said, whoa, and china has 200 times ship building capacity, team to build spaces, so we have to deal with this problem. host: bill in denver, colorado, independent. caller: good morning. fan of your work. i think the best counterargument i have heard on taiwan argue that even if the u.s. were to prevail against china in the conflict over taiwan, implementing the strategy of denial, what would it be to stop china from stepping back and saying, ok, we are going to go to 10% of our gdp on defense,

and we are going to try again in 5, 10 years? i understand from your perspective, it is not going to deter the conflicts before it gets to that stage, but just if it is possible and they know that we know that, doesn't that also make deterrence more difficult? guest: excellent question. i actually go into this a bit in my book, if you are interested. i would say in that context, we would have seen that china manifesting was a power that was willing to attack, etc., so and then if the chinese tried -- essentially soviet ties and the military, we would know that we need the clear evidence to be prepared. why i am so focused on taiwan's it is very difficult to mount

and sustain a large-scale amphibious invasion, so we have that going in our favor and the historical analogy i use, but we need to do is with the british did in 1940 and sway the germans from invading. the chinese might decide to do that, or they might decide to do that for a time, but that will be stressful for their economy over time, and we can hopefully persuade them that the balance of their incentives needs to go in a different direction. host: tom in maryland, republican. caller: yes, thank you. i would like to ask mr. colby to address with some degree of clarity the threat of the new weaponry coming out of china to our ability to deploy and sustain if we were to enter a conflict militarily with the chinese. guest: thank you. it is very serious. a report came out from my think

tank america initiative on the growing pla threat and threats to the homeland. according to the biden pentagon, they are developing conventionally armed intercontinental ballistic missiles. the balloon shows that capability, so sustaining the fight is a huge part of this. back in world war ii, we had a combat that atrophied our base, and this is a very serious challenge in something the chinese have been working on to make it hard for us to project and sustain power, and then they are increasingly building what they called the power projection military, the kind of military that we have to go around and beat people up we don't fall in line. host: and you mentioned hypersonic weapons. guest: absolutely. host: christina is next, illinois, democrat.

caller: good morning. the question i have, it is more of a comment. we worry about china having so much money, but we americans keep buying their products, which, of course, increases their money, terrorists -- tariffs do not work because you would think that they are supposed to raise the prices because the importers have to pay more, but people will still pay whatever to get those items. i do not understand why sanctions cannot be used on them on exporting goods from china. i will take your comment on that. thank you. guest: unfortunately, my general view is that sanctions don't really work, certainly not against an authoritarian society. i would say that the sanctions policy against russia right now is a total failure.

i don't think that is an exaggeration, if the purpose of sanctions is to shift the kremlin's decision-making in a meaningful way, it has had essentially no impact. we could argue on if it is having an impact on russia's military industrial complex, but they are increasing the production and getting help from countries like north korea, china and iran. if china invades taiwan, are saying that we are not going to buy something from china is not going to stop them. this is the country xi jinping himself thinks that a lot of chinese people are too soft, and he is actively preparing them for sanctions and their economy for sanctions. unless we have a military capability, there is no way we can reverse the defeat over taiwan. host: we do not talk about the war in the middle east, where are you on american support for israel? guest: i am a strong supporter of israel and its ability to go in and not only punish hamas, but for some reasonable degree eliminate hamas as a threat.

i think the most important thing we can have his continued political support. pieces like the administration for the first couple of days said, yes, we were are with israel, and now it is soft pedaling away when the going gets tough. i do support military aid. i think our primary purpose in our military forces and our own military aid spr own fundamental interest, which are shares in the taiwan defense, but if there are ways that we can mitigate those as in the case of ukraine, there are capabilities that we can give to the israelis that are not relevant to a taiwan defense, then, great, we should do that. but i think the main thing here is we need to stick by israel. obviously, we hope and should encourage them to pursue in a civilized way as possible, but they are dealing with an uncivilized group that uses humans as shields and so forth, so i think it is important we

stand strong with israel in the long haul because this was not be an easy or short thing. host: dave from michigan, independent. caller: yes. i would like to know your take on it is a broad, broad problem we have got, but how is international base connected to the u.n. and stuff? when they sit down at the table, a lot of them have mixed results and interventions with each other and involvement, so how are you going to convince all these different people? they're just going to come up with some kind of conclusion that it does not matter. i want to see how all this plays out. guest: on the u.n., the bad thing is that the um is not

really very functional, and for us, not that important in the sense that the russians have a permanent veto, so we probably will go back to a situation like the cold war where vito is on anything meaningful -- were eight vito is on anything -- a veto is on anything meaningful. it is not part of where you put your energy. host: w a question on text fr nson in florida, who says, c you comment on the stus of the russian people's attitude regarding the war, particularly the current response of young russian males subject to be drafted? guest: we have to take this with a grain of salt because there is not a libel information coming out of russia. it is a mixed system, but the preferences that there seems to be more than sufficient russian support or tolerance or indifference to continue the war. we don't see significant protests. in terms of mobilization, i

think we can increase the size of the russian army by 170,000 men. i have seen this from friends of mine on twitter and so forth, that they are paying bonuses to people in impoverished areas of russia, minority communities, etc. they have increased the proportion dedicated to military spending, but the russian economy i believe has grown this year. they are selling oil above the price cap. unfortunately, they are in a manageable situation. host: and they are selling that oil to china. guest: to get back to taiwan and china, china is in a perfect position and now has this gas station and natural resource hub that is dependent on it, and the chinese are doing the most important thinker russia, supporting the russian economy, which is a huge industry, so the fact that they are providing aid to the russians does not really matter because they can have cut

outs xi jinping and vladimir putin spent two hours alone a couple of weeks ago talking to each other, probably not about golf. host: lewis in florida, republican. caller: yes. i think that the fate is going to be whether we can capitalize because of the situation with fertilizer, phosphate production is going to be critical, and if we shift away from high use props and fertilizer and shift and people are not thinking about this, but there are

fertilizers and herbicides, and we should use our mills of the south to be converted into production facilities for manufacturing fabrics. that would be one way, and we would not be using as much fertilizer, and fertilizer is going to be a problem, and it is going to be a problem for china, too, because food is the major factor. their population is four times what ours is. guest: on the issue of food, the chinese appeared to be aware that. apparently, they have been stockpiling wheat. it is hard to know how libel that information is, but i think they are aware of their deficits and they are trying to envision eyes a lot of their food production. that further shows that they are anticipating the potential for sanctions or cut off of vital

resources, which suggests they think something could happen. host: janine in illinois, democrat. i think we lost her. hello, good morning. i am inclined to agree with you about china being a threat to the world. i think they want their chance to be an empire and i wanted to ask you, what do you think about the industrialized world creating this monster? that's a great point. i go to india and i say we need to stay strong on china and they say don't lecture us, you created this china. opening our economy to the chinese without holding them to account, there were changes that

were supposed to be made they were never held a count on. unfortunately now we have to deal with the situation we should learn from it. host: thank you so much for joining us. guest: thank you. host: a few programming notes, a conversation on the ongoing war between israel and hamas with the delegation of islamic panelist and you can watch that live on c-span or c-span now or online at c-span.org. also a discussion on free speech instability on college campuses with the president from james madison university after they

have been asked to respond to recent acts of anti-semitism. that's live from the arab islamic formic -- we will be back here tomorrow and have a great friday. ♪ a conversation on the ongoing war between israel and hamas and its implications on peace in the region with islamic foreign ministers. you can watch that live at 12:30

and then a discussion on free speech instability on college campuses with the presidents of james madison and depaul universities. many presidents are being asked to respond to antisemitic attacks after the hamas on israel. american history tv saturdays on c-span2 exploring the people and events that tell the american story. at 8:00 p.m. on lectures in history the life and legacy of world war i general with the treece donaldson history professor from texas a&m. a virtual discussion looking at julian gardner