guest: i appreciate your viewers. host: i would like to thank all our guests, callers, and social media viewers for another great "washington journal." continue to wash her hands and say thanks. have a great sunday. we will see you tomorrow morning. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2023] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

next. host: good morning and welcome to washington journal. the presidential election is coming up soon and political cabinet are crisscrossing the country, looking for vote. while most people are watching the republican and democratic candidates for president, there are others seeking the office. they have changed the trajectory of presidential races before and could in the future, including in 2024.

our question for you this morning is, are you considering a third party presidential candidate in 2024? we'll open up our regular lines this morning. democrats, your line is (202) 748-8000. independent can call in at (202) 748-8002. republicans can call in at (202) 748-8001. you can text us at (202) 748-8003. our conversation this morning is about whether you would consider a third party or independent candidate for president in 2024. more and more people are considering thinking about third party. i will start today by showing a recent poll that shows that it

is up to almost 63%. many u.s. adults currently agree that republican and democratic parties have done such a poor job of representing the american people that a third major party is needed. this represents a 7% entry from a year ago and the highest since gallup first asked the question in 2003. however, the current measure is not fully different from the prior high of 61% in 2017 and 62% in 2021. that was shortly after the daily 6, 20 21 capital right it's. a graph will show you how those numbers have gone up and down

right now in september 2023. it was at 63% of americans saying that there should be a major third political party. now, in the past, there have been major third party candidates that have made a significant impact on presidential elections. i want to bring you some of the information. here are some major third party candidates who have shown up in the ential election. since 1900, only five third-party candidates -- theodore roosevelt, thurman in 1948, george wallace in 1960 and

john hoppes rated have -- have been a to capture one electoral. other candidates like ralph nader made an impact in the elections without winning and elect 12 the by siphoning voters away from mainstream candidates. there are third-party candidates out there but the concern is whether they will siphon from the major parties. should that be a concern? one of those candidates who will be running in 2024 is robert f. kennedy, jr.. he said he was dropping his democratic nomination to pursue an independent bid for the white house. i will bring you his announcement. here it is. [video clip]

>> i'm here to join you. [applause] we declare independence from the corporation that has hijacked our government. and we declare independence from wall street, big tech, big pharma, from the dilatory contractors -- military contractors. and we declare independence from the mercenary media that is here to fortify all the orthodoxies from their advertisers. as we declare independence and

amplify our divisions. finally, we declare independence from the two political parties. the interest that dominate them and the entire system, corruption and lies that have turn government officials into service for their corporate bosses. host: our question for you this morning, are you considering voting for a third party presidential candidate in 2024? who are you considering and why are you considering that? let's go to melvin calling from richmond, virginia on the democratic party line.

are you there? caller: i am here. can you hear me? host: i can hear you. caller: thank you for taking my call. i am calling in on the democratic line and i will be voting for joe biden the next president of this united states to win a second term. i'm not really concerned at all about the third-party candidate because people say one thing to posters -- pollsters, but they do the opposite when they get in the tent to vote. i believe that america understands the seriousness of this coming election. maybe they are not thrilled about the candidates, but in the end, democracy is not any

particularly -- any particular candidate. i think america realizes that and that they will come through and make joe biden had a second term. host: you are calling on the democrat line, so i'm assuming you are democratic. have you voted for any other party for president? or have you always voted straight democrat? caller: straight democrat, jesse. i understand the importance of my the. my forefathers died to get the right to vote i understand the importance of it. it is clear that the democratic party is the only party that has done anything at all for black

people. i always vote blue. host: talk to jim on the . -- the next line. caller: the trump situation -- the biden situation is pretty bad. it is almost as bad. i am going to vote, i just hate to be forced into voting for either republican or democrat. i wish that could change, but it probably will not. host: who out there are use considering voting for? are there independent

candidates? are you looking at the green or dependent party? are there any non-democrat or republican candidates out there who have caught your eye? caller: are you calling kennedy a democratic candidate? host: he is running independent. caller: i would like him as a choice and i would like cheney as his vice president. this country, we do not begins on appreciate what we have available to us. they are going to be real problems, unafraid. i'm not going to start them, but i see a lot of things around me that i worry about. i am 74 years old and i have voted republican and i have voted democrat, and i have voted independent. most of all, most of my life, i

have voted republican. i would certainly not vote for trump and i do not want to vote for biden either. host: what would you say to other voters who say, if you are voting for an independent candidate, you are taking a vote away from president biden or a vote away from whoever the republican candidate will be? you are really not affecting the election other than to make the candidates for the major parties chances worse. caller: that is probably true. i would hope that people will cross over in the primaries and bill, to try to use that as some type of tool to make a choice or make a decision. host: let's talk to richard, calling from san francisco on the democratic line. good morning. caller: good morning.

actually, in this scenario, independent voting made a difference in 2000 election when ralph maynard had enough votes to make it close in florida. we found out what happened there. 20 years in iraq and economic collapse. your vote does count, but you have to be smart about what you are doing. i do not understand people who want to vote for joe biden. maybe they have not done research or understand demand. he has had more experience than anyone else who could run for president. the first two years -- he knows

every foreign leader. whether he has a mild-mannered, whether they think he is too old , i cannot think of anyone else. trump is dangerous. he is a sociopath who tried to incite an insurrection. do they understand that? host: richard, have you always voted democrat? have you ever considered third-party or another candidate? there are democrats who are saying that they would prefer somebody else then joe biden.

have you considered anybody other than the democratic candidate president? caller: that has not been really any third-party candidate in recent history, since i have been voting, that i thought would be better than democratic candidate. at one point -- each one of those presidents have had a long-term effect on society where democrats come in and try to clean up the mess. from fbi, all the way through. i do not understand people.

republicans are not for the average person. they are not for the working class person, not for civil rights, women's rights, or any rights. host: let's go to chicago, on the republican line. caller: thank you for allowing me to participate. it was the republicans who passed the civil rights vote. southern democrats opposed the civil rights act, so let's not forget our history. host: what do ever consider a third party presidential candidate? caller: i would, if there versus him since is where they could win. cornell west is a wonderful speaker and a great man, but his chances of winning are close to zero.

the ability to win is zero. the speaker of the house is going to trial in april 2024. we have a current financial chairman going on trial. we have joe biden who has been a government employee for 50 years. how can he represent the common man who has spent -- when he has been at the government table for 50 years? we have to make -- democrats are going to,

regardless of poor performance, regardless of the crime that is rampant. people have two choices, a republican and a democratic choice. look at the last three years and decide, what is their best interest? caller: i think we have a clear choice. i think that the early primaries that are coming up in new hampshire are going to show the strength of those candidates. i will vote for any republican candidate in the primary.

if that choice is donald trump, i will vote for donald trump, not because i think he is a great man, but he is the opinion of citizenship in the u.s. host: asking americans in november about the candidate kartik side. -- 60% said that they were satisfied. 29% said they would like to see other candidates. democrats running, president joe

biden. only 27% said they were satisfied 58% said they would like to see other candidates enter the race. on the independent side. 72% said they would like to see other candidate inter-. registered voters would like to see other candidates enter the presidential race. 52% of registered voters that they would like to someone else enter. would you vote for one when they show up?

let's talk to jim on the independent line. caller: the caller from illinois struck a chord in me. i think you might be a bit deceitful. he is trying to say that people like cornell west, we should go for republican. republicans are the party of business. i do not favor the democrats too much. we need to consider our options this time. trump could be very bad. i'm also not in favor of the cap process -- capitalist system.

i think the economic downturn, you always lame it on the party in power -- blame it on the party in power. host: have you decided whether you will vote for a major party or are you looking at a third-party or independent candidate? caller: cornell west would be, but i might have to vote for biden, democrat, just a block trump. 75% of americans do not want either biden or trump. thank you for letting me on and i hope people take this seriously and come up with a good interpretation of the facts. host: let's go to jonathan, calling from capital, florida the republican line. caller: good morning.

how are you? we can vote republican or democrat. the choices are very clear. the public does not want that. since i was born in 1980, the whole system has really erupted and is going further and further into debt since reagan. we are 29th in the world, and world power. we are losing our heat. we are losing our game.

people need to go to the library because -- it gives bigger clarity. this whole game of thrones gamble, i do not want an 82-year-old man getting back into office. host: are you considering voting for a third party presidential candidate, or are you going to vote republican, for the republican candidate for joe biden? caller: i'm not going to vote for any of them. i'm going to vote for a better choice.

host: let's go to fill on the independent line. caller: thank you, c-span for allowing us this forum to express our opinions. i am 75 years old and for the last 40 years, the republicans and democrats have progressively become less functional and more disruptive. i think all that is doing is feeding the same system that we have had for the last few decades it is not producing a leadership. i will be voting for a third-party candidate. host: what you say to other voters who will inevitably say, if you are not voting for

president joe biden, than any other vote is basically for the republicans? or the republicans will say, if you not voting for the republican candidate, it is basically a vote for joe biden? what do you say to arguments like that? caller: at some point, we have to break the chain of the worst of to be a evils. if my the takes moves away from the major candidate, so be it. i will have to live with that. i cannot allow myself to continue voting for the same corrupt system that we have. host: former representatives yes this morning and was asked about a possible third party when next year. she would run as a third-party candidate for president.

what her role would possibly be in the upcoming presidential election. here is what liz cheney had to say. [video clip] >> you have said that you will do whatever it takes that donald trump will not get into office again. time is running out for you to get on the ballot. some say if you go as a third-party candidate that it will just help him. >> i would not do anything to help him. i will do whatever it takes. we need to look at our politics in a different way. if he does come all of us across party lines have to come together to defeat him next december -- next november. there are some things about nonpartisanship, about not voting for whatever political

party people may be a part of. host: let's see what social media followers are saying about whether they are considering a third-party president in 2024. a third party would siphon votes from president biden. here is anotherost saying, i voted for a third party, so i basically voted for bill clinton. this is wh trd-party voting does. when you vote for a d o r, you are voting for a controlled individual and not someone intereed in helping us. another says, no matter h y try to justify in your mind, there are only two choices. any other vote helps one of the other candidates.

a post from facebook says, a great way to further scr and be sucked into the debacle that we are in right now. considered third-party in the past. the partisanship of t two-party system is one of the major issues with american politics today we need l parties or to do away with them altogether. no matter what the political peer pressure is, it is not a throwaway vote, if you vote for someone you believe will best lead the nation. our question for you this morning is, are you considering a third party presidential candidate in 2024? who are you considering?

why are you considering a third-party president? we want to talk to you about what you are doing this morning. rhode island on the democratic line. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. a candidate ran twice in the 1990's. ralph nader, i believe took the presidency away from al gore. to me, and independent vote is a waste. people are saying that joe biden

is too old. someone is making a movie right now at 93. ability -- people have ability at any age. i do not see president biden's age as being a detriment. i will be voting for him. host: ok. if we were not talking about the presidential election, would you agree with the idea that america needs more than two major political parties? that there should be more choices? or is this just about the presidential election? caller: no. i believe that if we had something what europe has come with multiple parties, that would be fine. but america is not going to vote for that. we are stuck in a two-party system.

it has been this way almost forever, and i do not see americans getting out of this. host: let's go to kevin on the republican line. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. the third-party opposition is something that needs to happen. i do not see it happening any time in the near future. tromping elected when he was, he was a because i third-party candidate. -- quasi third-party candidate.

he went republican because that was his best avenue for becoming president. at the time he chose to run. for those who are in the biting camp, i respect your political loyalty to your party. at the same time, i find it unfathomable that people can put their hearts, minds and futures into a man who has no mental capacity to perform. it is on tv, on audio, on video. we all know it. why are we doing that for the sake of the party? i find that highly offensive. i appreciate your time. host: have you made a decision

of which republican nominee people support for the 2024 election? are you going to support former president trump over the other surviving presidential republican candidates? caller: i like the field that the republicans have, but unfortunately -- i'm not a fan of trump's friend and al at or ethics, but at the same time, i think he knows how to get things done. at this point in our lives and for the sake of the future of this country, we need someone who will have a backbone to speak about what they believe in and get things done. that is why am going that route. ramaswamy is on this range. he is an up and comer and has great thoughts. desantis is a great manager. at the same time, i have to go with trump.

i believe that is what we need at this point in time. host: let's go to dayton, ohio on the democratic line. caller: longtime listener, first time caller. i registered democrat, but i have never been a straight line democrat. host: go ahead are you still there? caller: yes, i'm still am --i'm still here. host: would you consider a third-party candidate for president? caller: yes, i would. it would be someone like liz cheney. she understands the democracy. it is important to her. it would have to be a very strong independent candidate. host: does it matter to you

whether that candidate has a chance of winning or not? caller: yes, it does. host: turn your tv down, and go ahead. caller: they would have to be in a strong position with a really long track record. kennedy is not really known for his position on certain things. liz cheney, condoleezza rice -- it has to be a well-known individual with a track record laid out.

host: let's go to nashville, tennessee on the independent line. morning. caller: good morning. i do not runs. and i will tell you why. i have watched it all. it all boils down to one thing. kennedy is going to pull from biden, but i could help. trump is too far ahead in his party, so he will be the primary nominee. the thing is, the reason an independent will not work is because unless you get each state to get enough independents -- we have three branches and they all have to agree. if they cannot agree, it does

not matter. if kennedy were to win as independent, he would lean more 20 democrat because he is a democrat -- more towards the democrats because he is a democrat. independent means, i was a republican once or i was a democrat. i have voted for all parties, but as i become older, i become more conservative. people do not like trump's attitude or demeanor, but he does have a backbone. when the wolf comes knocking at your door, do you want a man or a mouse to answer the door? that is what it boils down to in this country. i will give you the answer that you want. thank god for you, jesse. i will be voting for trump. that is what a lot of your voters will not say because of his backbone, his business knowledge.

i have followed joe biden for 50 years and he has been a racist, a big it and everything he has done. how he got elected is beyond me. but donald trump promised america something and in four years, he delivered on it. that is what people are looking for. people are hurting and they will vote their conscience and their wallets. third-party will not win, no matter what you do. have a good day. host: president joe biden as the democratic candidate for president. earlier this year, dean phillips announced his candidacy for the 2024 presidential nomination, after filing to appear on the new hampshire primary ballot.

discussing his campaign and views on biden. [video clip] >> the tragedy that he underwent is something that no one would want to go through. i listened across the country they want a change. the problems we are facing are clearly ones that can only be addressed by my generation and younger generations. i want to be the first president to employ ai, to reduce costs for americans. i want to use it to produce better outcomes and deliver better service. we invented this.

we have people waiting to do so. we have people in positions of power who understand it. there are differences. not because he is not a good man but because i am part of a different generation that is looking ahead. i want to talk about people. people are struggling and they want to be heard. there are actionable ways to help the people. we are the only country who spends twice as much as any nation in the world. they charge us three to five times more for medicine or than anyone else in the world. why are corporations being afforded tax benefits that working americans are not? host: our question is, are you considering it third-party

presidential candidate in 2024? let's go to austin, texas on the republican line. caller: no, i'm not going to support it third-party candidate. i'm supporting trump. the reason liz cheney is so against him and because he took the football, never being in the political field, and he took that football and went all the way to the super bowl, and won a. i had a coworker, and he was all in for joe biden. at the time, joe biden had been in the world of politics for 47 years. i said, in the last 47 years, have you benefited from him being in office? he has been in politics for 47 years.

i gave him eight hours. the democrat party has gone totally demonic, by the way. transgender and everything else -- they have gone demonic. joe biden is not even there. host: all right. let's go to denise calling from glendale, arizona on the democratic line. good morning. caller: good morning. i'm calling -- let me say that i am a democrat. i support joe biden 100%. arizona is now blue. it is not purple, it is blue.

we have a few republicans left, but they will be gone soon. the independent kennedy, i love that he is running. the things he says are so from out of space. those are trumpeters that will say, i do not want to vote for trump. these scholars that think that robert kennedy is a democrat and will take over the votes from joe biden? they have no clue what is going on. jill stein is another one. she was sitting at a table with michael flynn. my memory is good. i remembered that was the case, when she ran, to mess things up for hillary clinton, and she did. until we get back to a supreme court that does not rule against

money being in politics, we will always have this issue with the two party system. it is all because of dark money. people should listen to senator sheldon about that. host: let's go to florida on the independent line. caller: just want to talk about the one issue. [indiscernible] we have tb of big parties -- two big parties. everything is divided between those two big parties. i'm watching this for almost 50

years. it is always between those two big parties. this party -- all my american friends, we have to focus on the economy, on health care. [indiscernible] another issue is the media. this is the big problem, the media. there is no independent media. it is for this party or that party. we cannot -- [indiscernible]

if you go to this party, we will tell you that the other party is wrong. it is the corporation. it is companies. the whole system -- [indiscernible] thank you. host: let's go to grove city, ohio on the republican line. caller: i am on the republican line. i always consider all the candidates. most elections, way back when, i felt like a matter who wins, we will have a good president. now we had two guys, who neither one of them should be on the

ticket. both of them will be on the ticket. i supported the effort years ago. i voted republican. it was hard to vote for trump. i voted for him. i will not vote for him this time. i will not vote for president biden. i think that means that i will not vote because i'm throwing my vote away if i vote for a third party candidate. until they come up with other candidates, which everyone thinks that we need, i will be none of the above is my vote. unless something changes. host: does that mean you will not show up at the polls at all in november? or does that mean that you just will not vote in the presidential election? caller: i'm not going to vote in

the presidential election for either one of these men. if one of the parties finds someone closer to the real world , i could support them regardless, though i am a republican. host: is anybody out there catching your eye so far? caller: last time around, i thought amy klobuchar would make a good president. i donated to her because. she is not on the ballot and will not be on the ballot. if i'm in this position election day, i will go out to vote for everything but i will skip the presidential line. host: last week, independent

candidate cornell last spoke to voters in omaha, nebraska when he talked about the importance of voting and using your voice to make significant changes in american society. here is what cornell west had to say. [video clip] >> take the golden rule seriously. what makes you think that you have to be the grand empire to dominate the world, why the ones sitting at home are dominating the working classes? no social experiment can survive with military overreach abroad, massive corruption among elites in both parties. the two-party system is -- if all we can do is come up with trump leading the second civil war and biotin leading us -- joe

biden leading us towards a third world war? you are in a world of trouble. out of all the human beings in this nation, creative and imaginative, those are the two that we end up with? oh my god. and then here comes rfk jr. you know i'm a christian. i'm trying to find exactly what you are up to. he is further to the right then joe biden. at least they are talking about, we should probably think about protecting civilians. you are raising the issue right now? come on. we were born at night, but not

last night. no presidential candidate has a monopoly on truth. where beauty -- or beauty, or goodness, or god. you have to look at the hilt of a candidate, the deed and word. every candidate is a vessel. just like every human being is a cracked vessel. that is what we used to say at our baptist church. we try to love our crooked neighbor with our crooked heart. host: let's see what social media followers are saying about whether they are considering a third party presidential idate in 2024. here is one post that says, i

want multiple parties so that i can vote for someone that i suort. instead of voting for leslie -- lesser evil against evil. another post from santos, i would consider -- from x says, i musthoose the person with the highest vote margin who acceptable. another post says, today's independents are disaffected republican odemocratic voters. one final post says, no matter w you try to justify, there are only two choices. any other vote for any other candidate helps trump. you're voting for trump anyways

by voting third party. our question is, are you considering a third party presidential candidate in 2024? let's talk to alvin on the democratic line. good morning. caller: i'm calling because i have been listening to year show for 30 to 40 years. i do believe that no independent voters are -- i do believe that independent voters are going to send us into in the next 100 years. people who say they are voting for trump saying he has backbone, courage -- he has been found guilty. all the people say that backbone is important. listen. all the people who know history know that hitler's had backbone.

but look what he did. i believe that anybody who is a strong republican should vote -- they have a lot of choices. democrats do not have as many choices, but i believe mr. biotin, -- mr. joe biden is going to do what is best. in that case, i would not vote for an independent in the coming election. host: let's talk to steve from columbus, ohio on the independent line. caller: there are so many things that i am listening to, as i am waiting to get through on the line. the one thing that i take out of all of this is that there seems to be a popcorn way that everybody tends to listen to.

even while they are president or running for president. hasn't donald trump been convicted of something? didn't he get convicted? or maybe someone does not understand the indictment process and conviction, the outcome, and how they go hand-in-hand, or how they do not go hand-in-hand. i listened to one caller who said, the problem i have is i have been voting democrat all my life. i would never vote republican because republicans have never done anything for african-americans. that was the exact words. if i remember correctly, wasn't abraham link in not a republican president? -- wasn't abraham lincoln a republican president? if you are of a certain age,

your grandparents or great-grandparents voted for kennedy. that started african-americans through voting democrat. a lot of people need to educate themselves and understand. it should not matter if someone is republican or democrat. what you need to vote for is what they plan to do for our country. the problem that our country is having is we are having a problem at the border. at the boarded that borders our country, not the border that people fly into. we are having a problem with the border that borders our country. other countries are taking advantage of our open borders. host: let's go to new york on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. i am very pleased with your

program. host: go ahead. caller: yes. good morning. i appreciate you taking my call. in terms of a third party, i think cornell west is an intelligent man and a very nice person, but honestly, he has no chance. there is no need for a third party here. who i am going to vote for, i will definitely be voting for trump because trump is not a politician. he is a worker. you understand? the borders? they are wide open. when he was president, there was no war with israel or ukraine.

he knows what to do. he has surrounded himself with good people. that is what a president needs. all you have to do is have good people surrounding you and the job will be done. host: on the democratic line. caller: good morning. first of all, when they call and, what policies did trump put in to help the american people? what in the world are they talking about? they are saying that trump was the best president that we ever had. he came in on a joe biden and obama agenda and took credit for it. a vietnam veteran, and i feel

like my mind is as good as anybody else who calls in on this show. what are these people talking about? my goodness! host: let's talk to deborah calling from st. petersburg, florida on the independent . good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i am a registered independent and i would welcome a third party. i believe that there are so many more people more qualified to be president, who have the ethics and leadership to take this country where it needs to go. these two parties are not, supporting trump and biden. if we go down this road again, we are so opposed. -- posed -- hosed.

i am a conservative. i love governor desantis for everything that he has done, but he has been trashed media. and chris christie. so anybody but trump on the republican side, and if trump ends up being the nominee, i will be a writ-in writing and another candidate because i cannot stand the ethics of the two nominees the parties are putting forward. it is just a joke. the electorate needs to triangulate their news, become educated, and we need more choices. thank you. host: we would like to thank all of our calls and social media followers for participating in our first segment this morning. coming up next, we will have a look at campaign 2024 in the political news of the day with catherine lucey and tom lobianco

. and later, former republican virginia governor jim gilmore, the former ambassador, will be here to discuss the debate on aid to ukraine. stick with us. we will be right back. ♪ >> this week on the c-span networks, congress returns. both chambers will work on 2024 defense programs and policy legislations which include extending pfizer surveillance authority which is set to expire at the end of this year. the hospital will vote to formally authorize an impeachment inquiry into president biden. tuesday, the senate homeland security subcommittee holds a hearing on coast guard reform following a report that the coast guard academy is plagued

by a toxic workplace environment and sexual harassment dating back to the 1960's. on wednesday, the federal reserve chair jerome powell holds his quarterly news conference following the december federal open market committee meeting. watch this week live on the c-span networks or on c-span now, our free mobile video app. also go to c-span at art for scheduling information or to stream video live or on-demand anytime. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. >> all this month, watch the best of c-span's q&a. tonight, davis, who for more than 30 years has befriended members of the kkk. he talks about his efforts to understand their hatred and convince them they are wrong. general davis tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span's q&a. you can listen to our podcast at our free c-span now app.

>> friday night's watch c-span's 2024 campaign trail, a weekly round of c-span's campaign coverage providing a one-stop shop to discover where the candidates are traveling across the country and what they are saying to voters along with first-hand accounts from political reporters, updated poll numbers, fundraising data, and campaign ads. watching c-span's 2024 campaign trail friday night at 7:00 eastern on c-span, c-span.org, or c-span now. c-span, your unfiltered view of politics. >> ugly over the holidays? make -- traveling over the holidays? to all of c-span's podcast of future nonfiction books in one place. it features multiple episodes with critically acclaimed authors discussing history,

current events, and culture from our signature program about books. afterwards, book notes plus and q&a. this into the bookshelf podcast this holiday season. you can find it at all of our podcasts on the c-span now free mobile video app or wherever you get your podcasts and on our website, c-span.org/podcasts. >> c-span2 studentcam documentary competition is back, celebrating 20 years come with this year's theme, looking forward while considering the past. we are asking middle and high school students to create a five to six minute video addressing one of these questions. in the next 20 years, what is the most important change would like to see in america, or over the past 20 years, what has been the most important change in america? as we do each year, we are giving away $100,000 in total prices with a grand prize

of $5,000. customer the opportunity to share the portion of an additional $5,000. for information, visit our website. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we are back, in our conversation is about campaign 2024, and i am joined with two ali zaidi blood to see in studio with me. we are joined by the wall street journal white house reporter catherine lucey and tom lobianco. and we are here to talk about what is going on in politics and campaign 2024. welcome both of you. catherine, where is the presidential election right now, and has anything changed? guest: you put it on two tracks.

what is the republican primary which continues with a bunch of candidates running but former president donald trump's miles and miles and miles ahead of the rest of the pack. that piece of the race, we are looking to see the race for second place, if anything happens there. but currently, trump is in the lead. and a lot of expectation that he will be the nominee. you pull that back and think about the bigger general election matchup. you have what looks like a rematch, trump beau biden re/max coming -- trump, biden rematch our way. president biden has been fumbling in the polls from labor day and beyond. estrogen about his handling of the economy, foreign policy. we have a new poll out showing trump ahead in a hypothetical matchup 47%-43%. president biden is heading into the election year with headwinds.

he needs to try to convince voters his economic plans are working. he also needs to reassure them he has the stamina and strength to take on another term. i think the other thing he will try to do is take down trump some. he is trying to make the case that trump's policies are dangerous, that a return of trump is dangerous for america, and you will see that argument from him as we move into the new year. host: tom, i see you nodding over here. do you agree? guest: very much so. speaking of "the wall street journal," nikki haley is still hanging on, and i see them putting out press releases, comments, etc., tweets that she is still best in the general. guest: the poll shows. i brought it with me.

if you put biden and nikki haley against each of the committee is leading 51%-30 4%. -- 34%. guest: you can see how jamie dimon ends up tossing money into her coffers. it is very dynamic right now. you have unencumbered president running for reelection with a semi-open primary. you got marianne williamson pulling five times better than she did the first time she ran. rfk junior was pulling at that number when he was a democrat. dean phillips is getting some kind of attention, and then you have trump, who is a semi incumbent. what is so fascinating about both sides here as i do both sidesism very early in the morning, trump and biden's inability to completely consolidate their party's support has been fascinating the cycle.

there is a large portion among primary voters looking for something else. neither one has a lock on their party completely. guest: but i would say trump -- one of the defining things is the durability of sticking with trump. it does not matter what is happening in court, but he is saying on the campaign trail. there are a lot of voters who are very loyal to him. host: let's get this question out of the way early. is joe biden the democratic nominee for president? will he be that on the ballot running in november 2024, or is there a possibility he may drop out? is there a possibility the democrats may want somebody else? guest: at this moment, yes. could a meteor riding a comment with a unicorn land at the house ? julie.

-- potentially. but at this moment, yes. host: august lee, no one can predict the future. everyone has health issues, but outside of something absolutely bonkers happening, do you see joe biden as the democratic president for 2024? guest: all indications are yes. that is not changing. when lbj got out, it was march of the election year so by that historic standard, those historic standards do not work as well as they used to, but he will have three months. there is still a three or four month window, but i think yes, absolutely. guest: he is raising money on the west coast this weekend and has a campaign apparatus. the democratic party has lined up behind him, so there is no indication he will not be the nominee, but i do think more broadly when you look at polling and talk to voters as i do,

there are a lot of democrats who are not happy with this choice, and actually, there is a lot of voters not happy with any of their choices. when you talk to voters but the prospect of a trump-biden rematch, there is a lot of people who say they would like to have other options. host: tom brought this up a couple seconds ago and i were both of you to dive into this a little bit. you talked about the inability of president biden to coalesce the democratic party around him while there seems to be a huge block of republicans who are behind president trump,, whether they love him or don't love him. they are behind him. does that show, does the fact that biden cannot call the democrats around him right now -- i know we are still a year out, but is not showing trump strength or biden weakness? guest: i think with biden, we are seeing a lot of frustration

in key pieces of the party. for him to win again, he needs to build the same kind of coalition he built in 2020, so that includes minority voters, young voters, suburban voters, and right now, we have all done a lot of stories looking at these, and there are a lot of people who are just not feeling him right now. i did a story recently about black voters and talked to people in milwaukee and philadelphia detroit, and there is a lot of frustration around the economy. he has a lot to do to bring those people back into what to bring them home. everyone around him will say there is time to do this, they are just starting, so that is kind of his central challenge, to get all of these folks back together. guest: what said about suburbs, especially the suburbs of philadelphia, when are things ramping up, it is when the twitter box from philly -- bots

from philly, especially women over the age of 60 who love the eagles start showing up in my time on. i have not had this happen in threads. don't remember it happening so much in 2016 but definitely in 2020. trump knows he has to soften his image to try to pivot forward to the general. you have kind of seen more of this recently. particularly with dissenters falling apart continually and nikki haley steadily growing in second place in the race. you see trump's team pivoting more towards the general election strategy. look at the messaging out of the trump campaign and advertising they are putting out there. very targeted on the economy. lord knows this is not what he

is writing on truth.com, but the formal message is the economy was so much better when trump was in, and these are the types of things we see resonating in the polls, focus groups among voters, and again, also, the suburban groups. will that work? the thing i am watching for here is, what does the dnc and start doing their remind about trump campaign? guest: they started that. you have seen that in recent weeks with the president saying in 2025, this is what things would look like under trump, and the other thing with trump to think about, he has a really strong lock on a lot of his party in the primary, but at one point, how does he grow in a general election audience? there are a lot of the electorate who will never vote for him. host: viewers can take part of

this fascinating conversation. we will open up our regular lines. republicans, you can call (202) 748-8001. democrats, your line is (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. keep in mind you could always text us your opinion at (202) 748-8003. and we are always reading on social media, on x and facebook, facebook.com/c-span. i will start with you with this question first. did former president trump hurt himself at all with the so-called dictator remarks on december 9? once again, there is a block of republican voters who say no matter what we are voting for donald trump. did that hurt former president trump at all? guest: probably going forward towards the general.

you look at that, as politics reporters, we look at actions a lot, not words. to the axios report, the latest reporting on what a second potential trump administration might look like, look at the sensitivity from the campaigns. co-campaign managers immediately putting up a statement. again, this is the second time they put out a statement saying these groups do not speak for us even though those groups are staffed with many of trump's talk closest allies. i think a former football star johnny back into -- johnny who is with the heritage tradition. the sensitivity around it to me is a signal that, yes, they are concerned about this. i'm knows they have to solve -- trump knows they have to soften his image.

when he makes a joke about this, dictator on day one, it shores up trump's base, but if you are in the suburbs, you are thinking, i don't know. i don't know if he means it seriously or literally. that is the group that trump campaign has to worry about. host: does it hurt him at all? guest: i don't know if he pays a price with republican voters who him, but this is a gift to the biden campaign to seize on this, on what they see as a threat of a trump presidency in 2025. host: i will stick with you with this question. will former dissipate in a republican debate, and does he need to, or are the candidates on the republican stage campaigning for vice presidential and cabinet positions only? guest: i don't know that he needs to. certainly there is no evidence to suggest so far that it has

been a problem. if anything, him staying out of the debate has arguably helped him. much of the conversation has not been about him or his policies or statements. it has been the others fighting amongst themselves for second place. i never want to predict trump behavior. tom and i know that you never fully know when he steps on a stage. i don't want to predict, but i don't think him staying out so far hasn't anyway been a problem for him. guest: his numbers and hannity were 3.2 million, some thing like that, same number as news nation for the debates. when you think about this in context, these are not the same as 2016. 2016, you had 24 million people tuning into every debate, which is just starting to think of. but if you look at a single

candidate allowed on a regular primetime newscast getting those numbers, pretty strong. news nation, which draws down hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands, whatever it is, quadrupling their ratings overnight. trump will never. he keeps saying that. host: one of the things we know we have is there is a repeat of biden-trump, two older candidates finding out for the highest political office in the nation. i will last both of you this. do you think there will be a major party debate? well biden want to debate trump? well trump want to debate biden? if they are the last two stating, do they need to debate each other. everyone already knows them. guest: yes. host: why?

guest: the commission of presidential debates has scheduled two general ones between the presidential nominees and one vp for a. yes. for trump, remember back to the 2020 cycle. trump's campaign manager talked about this in retrospect get the two things they thought hurt him the most were the handling of covid and his first debate performance with biden, where he came off as too much of a bully. and this primary dynamic versus general election dynamic. what works smash mouth and primary, making fun of ron desantis's boots, that there, but when this guy will be up at 3:00 a.m. to answer a call and not be on x or truth or whatever

it is, that is a different dynamic especially his 2020 team. they did not like the way he performed in there. well trump nullified it up? he could skip it and say the heck with it. i don't know how you campaign a -- i am sure they will figure out a way. host: do you think there will be a biden-trump debate? guest: i certainly think there will be a lot of to make what happened. these are very important for the process. i think voters want to see them. i am sure there are people on trump who think there is value in showing the contrast. i also think trump will drop out of the will he or won't he as much as he can publicly. guest: writing that story for at least another 10 months. [laughter] host: let's let some of our viewers took part in this conversation.

we will start with john calling from pennsylvania on the democratic line. good morning. caller: yeah, good morning. if you are comparing both parties, just look at texas and what is going on down there with how they are treating women. if i were a woman, i sure as heck would not vote for a republican. that kind of example five's what is going on in the republican party. freedom. they believe in freedom and choice? i don't think so. anybody that has a brain can see that party is really repressive. trump getting in office, they want to get back at people who voted against them or whatever. the guy is like a barroom brawl or, comes in and start a fight and leaves while everyone else is fighting. the guy is a real jerk. i think biden will win by more than 7 million votes this time the next fascist who comes

walking through the door will be carrying a bible. we don't need a theocracy in this country, that is for sure. that is my comment for today. thank you. host: he actually brings up a point i want both of you to address correct how will abortion affect the 2020 election? what will abortion due to the presidential election? guest: we saw how motivating this issue is for democrats, particularly women. we saw these outcomes in michigan in the midterms, some of the state supreme court in wisconsin, other special elections, so democrats recognized this is a powerful issue at it continues to show up in polls as a powerful motivator. we will hear a lot about this in the campaign. the president has been leading

-- a leading voice on this and they will try to highlight this and use this to get folks out. guest: a number of my colleagues at the messenger have written about this. looking forward past the midterms, almost immediately, democrats they were talking with were saying they will look for referendums. do they keep this front and center with voters? there was a question coming out of 2022, was that just a fluke? was the voter turnout at the dobbs decision drove just a one off? it looks like coming out of the latest cycle of november 2023 that it was not a fluke and democrats really are going to hammer this one. now, looking at it at large from a 30,000 foot view, how does that compete with trump's

court cases? how does that compete? coming into the year, we were talking by the first land war in europe since world war ii. and who would have predicted the israel-hamas war? we don't know what else will be there as a consternation factor in this. host: all right, let's talk to ron, who was calling from syracuse, new york, in the independent line -- all the independent line. caller: good morning. i would like to set your table this morning by reminding everyone that both major parties are going to have their respective conventions three or four months before election day and that at any point in either convention or both, so could stand up, asked to have the rules suspended, and thereby throw the conventions open to

anyone to get the nomination in either party. it has happened before and could happen again. the second point i would like to make as far as people believe that some of these republican candidates are running for cabinet positions, let's not forget presidents only dominate four -- nominate four cabin positions. thank you for taking the call. host: the dreaded convention fight permitted political parties start celebrating when you talk about convention fight. is it possible for democrats or republicans? we will start with you. do you see a floor fight at either political convention? guest: convention chaos. [laughter] it is a possibility, absolutely. look at what happened, especially with trump.

i think about how much he and his current team have learned from eight years in politics now. certainly many of his team has been around much longer than that, but one of his top campaign operatives, brian jack, the last white house political director under him, was doing delegates for him back in 2016 when ted cruz in particular in john kasich to a much lesser extent had a real shot at getting the nomination from in the convention. this was the real thing. and you look forward, what happens in march? we have the january 6 court case, which could potentially start on super tuesday. what happens when they start handing out the delegates in the primaries? there is a lot of talk when i talk with republicans who are not trump republicans, i hear a lot about, can you have a

foothold going into the convention? can you have this option open? the caller mentioned we covered politics so long. when you are in a public legislature like a convention, the people who understand the rules become masters of time and space. [laughter] so, yeah. put that up there with the comet hitting the white house and gavin newsom as a nominee. guest: on the republican side, there is a lot of volatility in a lot of question marks around trump and his legal problems. i will say i think there is a branch of republicans we both know who are constantly looking for trump escape hatches, and so far, a lot of them have not worked. it is a possibility, but there is a lot of people trying to

figure out, are there ways to turn the ship? and so far it has not turned. host: just a reminder, the republican convention next you will be in bold walkie in july and the democratic convention will be in chicago in august. of course, everyone remembers the big chicago credit convention chaos that happened used to go. the started salivating when we talked about chaos. of quest, nobody supports violence. we love the political chaos. let's talk to mike, who is calling from north carolina on the republican line. mike, good morning. caller: good morning. first of all, i want to talk to the people of tennessee, prayers for them, very devastating. keep them in your hearts. i hear the points on cnn and all of them talking about trump

being a dictatorship. let's see who is doing the dictatorship right now under the biden administration. they are mandating everybody to buy these little electric barbie cars which don't work. you have 4300 car dealers sent a letter to the white house but he is circumventing the supreme court and the other courts with giving student loan money out, and the main thing is not abortion, it is the economy. when you mandate all of these electric vehicles and gas stoves and all of that stuff, that makes the poor people like me -- i am not rich. it makes the prices go up in your food prices go up, but the main thing is this open border situation. right at 8 million, 9 million people. american taxpayers don't understand that the liberal try hards don't understand who pays for them. your tax money does. they don't come up here and have

jobs and everything and places to live. they are taking people's -- poor americans's houses that need housing, a government is putting them in housing, kicking americans out of housing. it is ridiculous, and it will be 10 million before the end of the biden administration, and i am a trump republican and i am proud to say it. host: how big will the economy and the border be in the 2020 for elections? guest: the economy is always a central issue in every presidential election, and we are already seeing how concerned voters right now are about the economy. what we say the economy, the thing we are really hearing from people about this and prices because the biden team will point to a lot of good indicators around jobs and economic recovery, but voters really feel like prices have remained too high.

there is concern about housing prices and rent and those are waiting on people. the border is a problem for the president. there are negotiations right now around a supplement bill and aid. the president has made clear he is open to doing more restrictive policies on the border. this is something that there are concerns from voters about. host: the economy and the border, is it a bigger problem for the democrats then the republicans? can republicans take advantage of this and take the presidency away from democrats? guest: you look at campaign issues as wedges and uniter's and especially for immigration, it is a uniter on the right. that is a type of issue where you bring that up when you go to a tim scott event and donald

trump event. they are totally different in who and why they are supporting, but they unite around immigration. i think for the republicans in particular, the wedge is abortion. but the economy, i am not entirely sure how that one would cut. you know, it seems to hurt the biden white house the most when you have good numbers coming out, but you have sort of the pocketbook issues, the cost of milk still going up. so i am not sure exactly how that one cuts going into the general election just yet. guest: said earlier the thing the trump campaign lawyer's to do is remind people of the pre-covid economy during his presidency, and they think that is a powerful argument. host: let's talk to pat, who is

calling from west virginia on the democratic line. pat, good morning. caller: good morning to you all. i don't believe there will be any changes at the convention. the people that are in charge of those conventions are for both of these candidates unless either one of them has some kind of a health issue between now and then that affects their candidacy. i think we are stuck with the two candidates we've got good i don't see any change coming, but what i would like to do is you all have had a few laughs this morning and about two weeks ago, a lady called in and had a little jingle to sing for trump's candidacy. i would like to sing a little jingle here. host: i would suggest that you don't. let's go ahead to the caller from tennessee on the

independent line. wendy, good morning. caller: good morning. are you there? host: yes, go ahead. caller: the thing i keep hearing and i hear it even locally where i am, people don't have choices. what you need to realize is everything you choose for yourself, you have to be checking everybody's backgrounds. you cannot trust any newspaper, any news media, and social media. you have to do your own research. past behavior indicates future. they are telling us we have to get rid of gas and oil two thirds of the products on the market are made from petroleum. are you going to -- nobody gets the receipts from any idea somebody comes up with. what would you say if i told you four or five countries have already collapsed where they

have instituted the new green deal energy? if you don't have a choice of what you want to choose to put in your house, heat your home with, provide the electricity, they start taking away those choices and using your money to subsidize another company to put your other went out of business, you are not free, you are never going to be free. you will become a subjugate, a pond, and you will have nothing. the more choices you have, the more freedom you have, and you need to remember that when you are voting. who is giving you the most choices of things to provide for your family, your life, your livelihoods? who is making it the easiest for you to survive and be successful and build something in your life? who is telling you the truth? you need to figure it out because you will collapse us if you don't. host: one thing we have not heard much from from the

presidential candidates yet is about energy. how does energy play in the 2024 election? guest: one thing before hopping into that, you don't really like when folks tell you don't trust the news media, but there is a good lesson in there which as it turns out is a good news media lesson, journal of lesson. we always talk about coming up in industry if your mother says she loves you, check it out. i like the sentiment there to check things out. read us, the messenger, their journal, call in, watch c-span. as many good outlets as you can. energy could cut weird here. i don't know. energy is one of the things where it never really dominates in a cycle, but if you have a

fall off, look back at covid. we had these incredible gas prices because we were all in our homes. we were not driving. but opec could step in potentially. you have the guy who owns one of the biggest media companies in the world, elon musk, this with help of the u.s. government, this kickstart the electrics industry. i discovered energy policy years ago, and it was really hard for electric car makers or the electric car lobby and industry to get off the ground. they could not do that. elon musk did that. i don't know how much it moves things. i would watch for that more in a place like the rust belt, michigan. it is a strange thing indeed to see republicans show up to picket lines, but there they are.

have not seen that in four or five decades. i would look for that as an impact in places like michigan, ohio, places around there. guest: tom is right. i think certainly the trump thing, there is utility in this issue for him. he made his comments about his first day talking about domestic oil drilling, something he will keep talking about. president biden is invested and try to tomorrow green policies and made a lot of purposes and tried to enact those with his legislation so he will be talking about that. i think the comments also just be unthinking but energy each of the kind of voter anxiety we are hearing and the economic anxiety we are hearing from people. there is a lot of worry. you heard about the worry about a shift to electric vehicles and how that will affect me or how energy policy will affect me and my family. you hear that a lot whether

specifically about energy or the price of milk or the price of rent, so things are waiting on a lot of people. host: i want to bring this question to both of you because we spent our first hour talking about it on the show today. do you think there will be a major third-party candidate for president, and if there is a major third-party candidate for president, does it hurt president biden or whoever the republican nominee is going to be assuming it is donald trump? we heard announcements from cornell estimate dean phillips, robert kennedy, junior. possibly liz cheney coming up in the future. there may be someone else coming out in the future. will there be a major third-party candidate, and if there is a major third-party candidate, who does it hurt? i will start with you, tom. guest: oh boy, the question. [laughter]

polling moves so differently on this. we have a lot of big-name independent third-party candidates this go around. with all due credit to jill stein in 2016, this is not gel start of 2016. this is not even cornell west in 2016. i think he was a sanders guy back then. independents are getting a lot more attention than they have been in the past, so you get a ross perot situation in 1992? i think it probably hurts -- if you look at rfk, junior, i am not so sure about cornell west. certainly if you had a moderate or whatever amounts to a moderate republican these days like a liz cheney or larry hogan. that would seem to hurt biden and his coalition. rfk, junior, is a little more of a wildcard.

because he kind of hits the joe rogan crowd. that would more likely to eat into donald trump's base of support. we have not even got to no labels yet. i don't know what this does. convention chaos. [laughter] guest: well, our latest poll shows that when you put all of these names in with trump and biden, rfk, junior, is pulling 8%, cornell estimate 3%, so you have a number of people attracting boats. i think the important thing to think about when we think about third parties, as you guys know, it actually comes down to a small number of battleground states and who is on the ballot. one, does rfk get on the ballot in wisconsin and michigan and arizona and georgia, the key places for the race to be decided?

but if these candidates do, we have seen this before, the margins in some of those states, previously have been so narrow. 20,000 votes. it does not take a third-party candidate pulling that much support to change the outcome. host: all right, let's go back to the phone lines and talk to jeff, who is calling from north carolina on the republican line. good morning. caller: hello, everybody. you got me? host: we got you. go ahead. caller: first of all, this country was built on conservatism and capitalism, not liberalism or socialism. another thing, we do not have a democracy. we lost that in november of 2020 when joe biden and the democrats cheated the united states presidential election. look what you have now, a

traitor and a coward sitting in the white house. i am happy to report the state of north carolina will be voting for donald trump again and i will tell you why. because we do have brains, common sense, we know about basic economics, basic united states and world history than we have liberal idiots. thank you. host: all right. do you want to respond to him? strong feelings. guest: you know, go out there and you talk with folks. yeah. this dynamic in this cycle, i keep trying to look down the road to see what the effect will be. it is a mixture of calm alike, heightened malaise -- it is a mixture of, like, heightened

malaise. what does that do? jeff from north carolina just called in, does he show up and vote? does he vote mail-in ballot? this is something republicans worry about in particular because the flip side of donald trump saying do not trust mail-in voting was that people that listened to donald trump did not trust mail-in voting and did not show up as much. yeah, i hear this a lot. a lot of anger out there. it feels like a 2020 rematch. the electric in this country is still that the electorate in this country -- the electorate in this country is still dealing with that. i am not sure rfk swoops in and

handles it. adds more fire. guest: he said that donald trump said the election in 2020 was stolen from him and people continue listening to him. there are concerns on both sides of the aisle about democracy and the future of democracy. both trump and biden are trying to address that. this has been commentary from biden for a long time. he has made a number of big speeches about january 6, saying our democracy at risk, but you have seen trump also recently because he knows this is something that is motivating for his voters as well. guest: trump is really good and crisis communications, get out in front of the message. host: let's talk to sam, who is calling from arkansas on the

independent line. good morning. caller: good morning and merry christmas to all of you. i watched the debate the other night, and i think they have been good so far. the media and the republican party seems on putting up nikki haley. nikki haley is a disaster. vivek ramaswamy is being portrayed as a cloud by the media. i think he made some very important and valid points the other night during the debate to nikki haley. nikki haley basically brags about her foreign policy experience, and she has this ukrainian policy, but yet when she was asked by vivek ramaswamy of which providence she wanted to defend, she could not name anything. she looked like a deer in the

headlights. i feel like the commander-in-chief should be able to answer basic questions before they involve us in another war. whether it is sending billions of dollars order pulling -- for deploying troops, nikki haley does not talk about de-escalation. all she talks about is war with russia and getting putin out of ukraine. another point i felt like vivek ramaswamy made, she was worth $100,000 when coming out of the united nations but now worth $8.5 million. where is she getting the money? and again, she just looked at the cameras and said nothing and said she will not answer those questions. thank you. host: what to tackle that first? guest: about the media propping up nikki haley, there have been

coverage of nikki haley but it is a refection of her rights in the polls and that she is pulling more support from the republican donors so she has moved up a lot and she and dissenters are battling for second place. in some polling, she is close or ahead so she has moved up. i don't think that is just a reflection of the press. i think a big part of her appeal to a lot of voters is her background in foreign policy. i think she has had a series of very strong debate performances and a lot of republicans are giving her a look. she is also getting attention from the moderates and others sometimes vote democrat, sometimes republican. some of those voters we talked about earlier in the show. nikki haley could be very appealing to them. host: tom? guest: that consolidation we used to talk about earlier in the primary, it hasn't around

haley slowly and steadily. the caller sam brought up this interesting split in the modern republican party where you have sort of the more nationalist antiwar wade fighting against what you would consider to be more traditional conservative reagan style hawks like haley. we are 20 years after the launch of the iraq war and i hear more republican voters than democratic voters talking about him go to war, we don't want to be in war. that is remarkable. but that split is i think why you start to see people like the old establishment, older conservative style republicans like haley, they start to hit a ceiling in the party. i don't know that vivek ramaswamy is one to grab any of that now, but there could be a future for him if the

nationalist wing of the party keeps growing. host: before we run out of time, i want to finish up with callers, but i want to make sure i ask you the question about the ongoing legal effects on the presidential election. you have former president trump facing judges in several states. you now have hunter biden, the president's son, being indicted on tax charges and gun charges. all of these courtroom maneuverings affect former president trump or president biden as we get closer and closer to november? i will start with you. guest: former president trump is expected to be in court this week in one of these cases. his campaign is really shadowed by all of these court cases, and his time is literally being

consumed by it, so one issue for him it is, how do you stay on the campaign trail and do all the work you want to do as a candidate while still dealing with court appearances and all the demands of these cases? he is also at least with his base really trying to use these cases to rally supporters, are you is being persecuted, and really try to politicize them. that has been a popular message from him, so i think for trump, we will continue to see that play out but the big unknown is what happens if one of these cases comes to conclusion and if he is convicted of something. we have not seen this movie before i do not know how this will play out during a presidential campaign. guest: just all of it, looking past these debates and really after iowa where we are about a

month away from iowa now, it could go back to being just a race about these court cases, and trump in particular has tried to avoid a lot of the negative coverage that used 2 -- his people would let it out there, there are sources, get it out there. you don't have that happening as much anymore, so there is a lot of sensitivity around it. there is the distinct possibility that one month from now we are no longer talking about nikki haley, vivek ramaswamy, dean phillips, and instead we are focusing on legal maneuvering and legal mechanics. it feels like and a lot of ways we are covering trump and russia again where politics is all about i have to read dockets all the time as opposed to the quarterly financial reports. [laughter] host: let's talk about hunter biden, the president's son.

do the indictments of hunter biden affect his father's chance at reelection to the white house, tom? guest: yes, absolutely. in 2020, it was a more tainted story because it had been wrapped into the first impeachment of trump. you had not really have this fleshed out in public yet. now it is a developed story, established story, and it looks bad for the president and his family. now, is it bad, worse than any given trump case? these are things that are quite literally being adjudicated at the moment. something interesting about trump, politically looking at this in terms of perception here , the ability to have so many

story lines at once that it is hard to pick out one. which former court case that which court case of a former u.s. president go after more? here we are with one with multiple ones at multiple levels versus hunter biden, where it is a single-story, one single-story. it starts to become like hillary clinton emails. perception was, that tends to hurt biden more the same way the clinton emails and their handling of that in 2016 hurt them. hard to say at this point, but it is established here. it is absolutely established. host: does it matter that the story is about the president's son and not the president himself at least yet?

nobody in this case the same we are going after joe biden. we are going after the president's son. does that matter to the election? guest: the president's son is different from the president and voters have the ability to recognize the difference in the president has always been very clear he is supportive of his son. i think it hunter biden -- if there is a trial, that is potentially embarrassing for the president and his family. it is a distraction from the campaign, which is not helpful obviously as he is trying to drive a message. it also brings up a lot of things about hunter biden's spending habits, has personal problems, which the family does not want to be aired again, and some of the things on spending come in contract with the president's working-class brand, which is not a good thing for him. host: let's see if we can get more calls and before we run out of time. we will start with larry, who was calling from alabama of the democratic line. larry, good morning.

caller: it is amazing that the orange man dodged showing his taxes for a to know how many years if he had ever done it, but dragging this all out detail by detail with everything hunter biden did about his taxes. the elephant in the room is that this guy would have been taken care of. neither one of them would be running if mitch mcconnell would have done his duty and had a just and fair impeachment. we would have found out. neither one of them would be in there. since they are, i am riding with president joe biden because that other guy is deplorable and despicable. he is already telling us in project 2025 what he is going to. host: all right, anybody want to jump in on that? guest:. what i said earlier, the trump taxes are out there. new york times reported that.

they are now at the center of this current civil on trial in new york. perception-wise, larry from alabama is paying attention to this. it is not your average run-of-the-mill person who knows about project 2025. he is dialed in on all of the stuff, and still there is a fog around trump. he has been running that tactic for at least eight years now and it works. host: you want to add to that? guest: no, i think tom is right. there is frustration among some democrats that feel like hunter biden would not have been targeted this week if he was larry from alabama's son, but some democrats think he is being pursued because he is the president's son. host: let's talk to david, who was coming from indiana on the republican line. david, good morning. caller: yes, good morning. you were discussing earlier about the presidential debates.

i see biden is going to just do another covid in the basement type campaign and let the others go out and do the speaking. not necessarily debate obviously, but trump not joining in at least in the final one-on-one republican debate gives the biden an excuse not to debate him at all, and i don't think biden first of all could handle it cognitively for an hour and a half to two hours. that is when to be there excuse. trump did not debate, so we are not going to debate. you mentioned the legal troubles of hunter biden. he forgot to mention the upcoming impeachment hearing and perhaps on the president. you carefully left that one out. i think the recent charges to

hunter is going to open up the impeachment hearing more and he is going to have that on his back during the election. thank you for your time. your panel has been very fair and i enjoyed watching today. merry christmas. host: the impeachment inquiry coming up next week in the house. tom, what do we expect? guest: a lot happening here. i would urge everybody to follow my colleague at the messenger. he is doing great work on this. for me, generally in the campaigns here, is this a story that will penetrate? will it establish itself? the latest hunter biden development seems to indicate yes. house republicans have struggled with this in the past with

bringing -- you hear the house oversight chairman talk about this, lack of a smoking gun here. it starts to feel like where democrats were during the trump-russia investigation, having trouble finding a singular piece -- a lot of smoke but not actual fire. hard to tell, but it seems to have heightened import now. host: hauch impeachment? -- house impeachment? >> guest: so far, they have obtained some testimony that he occasionally met associates of his son's but have not found any proof that the president promised them anything. we will see this continue to play out in the house. i think we will have to see how -- i think the next step this week is a -- is if they agree to an impeachment inquiry. that does not mean they are voting on and impeachment.

that is a different thing. so several steps to go in this process. host: final question for both of you. what are you watching this week and what should we be watching when it comes to campaign 2024? guest: if trump testifies, that is a big one. we will see what he has to say. the big headline going into the beginning of the week. host: what are you watching this week? ? guest: i am watching this republican reconsolidation around trump. very interesting interview, bob costa with kevin mccarthy, endorsing trump and suggesting he might want a job in the administration if he gets back in office. so that is another indication that the republican primary

seems to be heading toward a close. the biggest caveat is there are not many votes cast yet, so things could change. guest: we are looking and watching to see if there could be agreement on a supplemental bill and aid to ukraine, which remains unclear. there is a fight about whether they can agree on border measures as part of the effort but that is one key thing to watch this week as well. host: that is a perfect segue for our final segment. we want to thank tom lobianco, national political reporter for the messenger, and catherine lucy, white house reporter for the wall street journal, for being without us. thank you for being here. coming up next, former republican virginia governor jim gilmore, former u.s. ambassador

to the organization for security and cooperation in europe, will be here to discuss the debate on age to ukraine. next, more calls on our open forum segment. talk about the most important political topic of the day. we are waiting for your calls. we are right back. ♪ >> weekends bring you book tv, featuring leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books. a seattle-based talk radio host takes a critical look at democrat run cities across america. a wall street journal technology reporter and author inside facebook and the fight to expose secrets. he talks about facebook growth and the challenges its platforms have faced. he is interviewed by a bloomberg news reporter.

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facebook at facebook.com/cspan. let's go straight to our calls. from farmington, missouri on the independent line, danny, good morning. caller: thank you. it is a privilege to be with you today. i was blown away. that can buck statement the other day -- ken buck statement the other day caught me offguard. the only information i retained was the statement about the election. now the kevin mccarthy thing. i wonder -- he is supposed to be a famous fundraiser. i wonder if there is any chance of him fundraising for gabbard and cheney ticket. that would be my ideal pick. host: rich is calling from new

york on the republican line. caller: i love your show. that one before are uninformed. this is all about being blind and not seeing -- i do not know what james comer has to do to prove that the biden crime family is corrupt and right now the democratic party is definitely a communist party. that is all i have to say. host: let's talk to andrew on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. i think that any third party that comes into this up-and-coming election will be a factor. based upon the inability of most

voters to rationalize and differentiate issues. for instance, biden, the son and father. the father has nothing to do with what the son did. yet, because the inability of most individuals to differentiate, they will use those emotional factors to combine the two and then neglect to vote for mr. biden. on the other hand, because the family of donald trump had immediate -- had the connections , direct connection with what the father did, because of the emotional factor and the inability to rationalize and dealing with the emotions of individuals, they will vote for

donald trump unless he is convicted. unless he is convicted. if he is convicted, that will be a major factor in changing their votes and going to a third party. thank you very much. host: let's talk to homer from louisiana on the democratic line. morning. caller: i am a vietnam era veteran. i don't understand why everybody is so high on trump. not everybody, but some people are so high on trump. just no comparison. i don't -- i would like to see somebody other than that. i would like to see them two ladies, like harris and cheney. a cross ticket.

get some of the mess out of things. that is my opinion. host: clarence is calling from ohio on the independent line. caller: will be really interesting, if instead -- see how that shakes out. there is no real republican party. thank you. merry christmas to you. host: let's talk to johnny from cincinnati, ohio. good morning. are you there? caller: nobody really listens. all you have to do is just say it. all his followers will push it on. that is what he is doing. my question to the republican

people and republican party, this man has been convicted of some type of rape. if this man can run for president, i think that question on every application to get a job should be gone. that is the thing about whether you have a felony charge or not. that should be eliminated. if you can get that job, any crook anywhere should be able to get a job. thank you and have a merry christmas. host: let's talk to robin from dallas on the republican line. good morning. caller: thank you. i believe the thing about hunter's charges is all about biden because the thing is, where did hunter get his million dollars? to party with? it is all about joe biden.

he is selling him top-secret documents that hunter sold to ukraine and russia and especially china. our president is bought by china. china owns biden. that is all i got to say. host: let's talk to jorge from albuquerque on the independent line. are you there? all right. let's go to -- are you there? caller: hello? can you hear me? host: go ahead. caller: thank you. i was wondering if you had natural lighting in your new studio. it seemed like the old one did. i pray they pay you guys enough. i wanted to talk about citizens united and one of the arguments is that it is unlimited money in politics this is not true. money is not infinite. speech is not to be limited, so

money is finite, especially for the poor. if money is speech, than the poor have no voice. thank you. host: let's go to wesley from spartanburg, south carolina on the democrats line. good morning. caller: good morning. about hunter biden, there is a line in "apocalypse now." it says charging the colonel with murder is like handing out tickets to the indianapolis 500. it is the same with hunter biden. this will industry appear in washington says -- his own family pays for it. all is kin to somebody. the lady that is married to the speaker of the house, i read in

the paper that somehow the supreme court -- his wife is getting paid $10 million for consulting. this whole thing is a crook. i don't know what side. host: let's go to mike from connecticut on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning, jesse. i was calling about the case where she is one of the founders of moms for liberty and she was found out to have a long-term relationship with another woman and she is very anti-gay, anti-lgbtq. her husband has been accused of raping her partner.

and in sarasota, florida, he has an excellent attorney, so my opinion is he will be found innocent but expect to hear more of these kind of cases from sarasota, florida. it is a very corrupt place. under the leadership, it has become a safe haven for hate groups and sex traffickers. thank you and merry christmas to you. host: let's talk to andrew from albuquerque on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. i hope and pray i can keep this together because it is hard to ask questions with all the other callers. there are a couple things that bug me. one is the democrats come down on trump. i am not a trump supporter. they say he is threatening this

person and that person and the government and they do not -- they give some kind of legal excuse that we have to give him due process and everything but he does not want to give anyone else to process so i do not understand their logic. they basically allow a domestic terrorist to run around and run for office. i read the other day trump spent $900,000 on a witness, to pay expert witness fees in his court case in new york. there was none hundred thousand dollars. i am not a rich man. the government has made me go broke with legal problems and everything. here donald trump spends $900,000 just on witness fees for one case for one issue.

they have $100 million allocated . let me summarize it like this. the average man, this court case of donald trump exposes the improper, illegal type of unconstitutional system we have in the united states because nobody that is a regular person can afford as a prosecutor or defendant to do what they are doing. i object to the entire legal system based on that. host: let's talk to michael: from pittsburgh, pennsylvania on the republican line. -- michael, calling from pittsburgh, pennsylvania on the republican line. caller: my concern is this indictment they have against hunter biden is a political indictment. from california headed by governor newsom is allowing this to go forward because it will prevent him from testifying and

he will not be subpoenaed in the republican house's case. impeachment case. i think that has nothing to do with -- it is not touching on the most important issues that hunter biden has done, including the money taken from china and ukraine. with his father's cooperation. that is the number one thing. it would benefit governor newsom if he is indicted and then perhaps biden would have to step down and governor newsom would become the front runner in the democratic party for the presidential nomination. host: we would like to thank all our callers in social media

contributors -- and social media contributors. jim gilmore will be here to discuss the debate on aid to ukraine. stick with us. we will be right back. >> book tv every sunday on c-span two features leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books. a seattle-based talk radio host takes a critical look at democrat runities across america. at 10:00 p.m., a wall street journal technology reporter and author of "broken code" talks about facebook's growth as a company and challenges its platform has faced, interviewed by a bloomberg news reporter.

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gilmore, also a former u.s. ambassador to the organization for security and cooperation. in europe he is joining to discuss the debate on aid to ukraine. guest: thanks for the chance to talk to your listeners. host: can you describe what you did as the u.s. ambassador to the organization for security and cooperation in europe? guest: it is a long mouthful, but think of it like the united nations except centered in europe. it is headquartered in vienna, austria. there are 57 countries in it, virtually everybody in the northern hemisphere through eastern and western europe to scandinavian countries and baltic countries. russia and ukraine are both in it. the united states and canada. every week, these ambassadors appointed by their chief executives and in america's case confirmed by the senate, we go

to the palace and states the positions of our country. it is an important diplomatic tool. it alerts our allies and adversaries exactly what the american position is and i think it has geopolitical consequences. that is what the old sec really is, but it is quite active, quite a long program, including previously putting special monitors into eastern ukraine prior to the russian aggression. since that time, it has been very disruptive. we have to be careful not tonight a general intimidation and compromise of europe, which is essential to united states national security. host: how did your experience as ambassador and form your current position on what is going on in ukraine? guest: it is essential. i had an opportunity to interact

with all the ambassadors, including the russians and ukrainians. ukrainians are an independent country. they sit in the organization there. the russians are in it and stated their position, but i interacted carefully with our best allies, the french, germans, british, and americans, providing that kind of leadership. everybody is in it. if the russians are able to conquer by force and aggression, they change the way we do business across the world. at that point, it is a new order and it will be the use of force an atrocity in conflicts to conduct you politics. -- geopolitics. that is not the world united states once. -- wants. if they are able to do that, that will compromise the politics of europe.

if europe is compromised, it is no longer the staunch supporter of the united states the way they are today because of internal politics because of ukraine pressure and intimidation -- russian pressure and intimidation. europe will be compromised as an american ally. s time goes on, we might see an igniting of what is going on in the pacific because of american withdrawal because a russian success and at that point the actual safety and existence of the united states is called into question. the ukraine war is about america's interests as well as ukraine's. that is what is at stake. europe is at stake and is essential to the security of the united states. host: i want you to reiterate it. why should americans care about and fund a war in europe? there are so many other things americans could tell you we could use our money for domestically.

why should we be spending our money on a war in europe? guest: the united states is a great power. it has finances to do what is necessary. we can address the border issue and america's national security. what is going on in europe now deals with american national security. not some the radical thing -- theoretical thing. this affects the safety and security of america. if we abandon american leadership, at that point our allies and friends in europe will have to make the best deal they can with the russian aggression or gas -- aggressor. they have already said moldova is in their target sites, not to mention the baltic countries. russia is trying to reassemble their empire. i want to emphasize political

consequences for the rest of europe are significant and the example we would be giving in the pacific. right now, the chinese are being cautious but the u.s. basically announces we are withdrawing and going back to policy of isolationism, then you could end up with a war in the pacific, which means triggering a world war. read the history of what happened before world war two. america was an isolationist power. we were keeping america until they almost won in europe. they were putting britain under a great deal of pressure at the time. the parallels are identical and we need to learn from history and understand we can be involved with this and avert the worst problems. we do not want a third world war. my policy is on behalf of

america, not to create a war or involve america in a war. we are not sending troops. we are sending a relatively modest amount of money by geopolitical standards and we can avert a war. michael is to avert war and one is coming we do not do the right thing now. host: there is argument over the funding in congress. i want to read you a couple paragraphs from the latest story about what is going on with funding. here is, according to abc news, what happened this week. joe biden called on congress to approve a stalled package of aid to ukraine. republicans blocked a key senate procedural vote over demands for new restrictions to bolster u.s. border security. biden called it stunning that congress has taken as long as it has to pass the request for 61 billion dollars in additional funding for ukraine. laying out a stark warning of

what could happen if more funds are not approved and saying republicans will give russian president vladimir putin the greatest gift you could hope for if the u.s. and its global leadership now. do you think congress, the senate, the house, should approve the president's request for additional funding? for ukraine immediately? guest: i do. by delaying and doing different kinds of things in congress, we are already doing damage by sending a message to the world that we are so confused in the united states we cannot understand our own national safety and interests. it is more complicated than that. president biden cannot give a politics statement without -- so he is really making things worse. this is not a president people want to enter into a worldwide conflict with. he is not a person republicans are willing to rally to because he drives them away with every

speech. there were at least six errors that president biden made at the beginning of his administration to send a message, a diplomatic and political message to vladimir putin that he could get away with a. so he did. he launched a war that he wasn't prepared to launch because president biden was sending bad messages. the point is this is not a president that republicans are poured -- prepared to rally to because of the behavior of the president. i understand what is going on in congress. republicans see this as an opportunity to leverage the international situation to do reform on the southern border. the people of the united states have made up their minds that the southern border is an issue and should be addressed. why will the democrats not simply enter into a reasonable negotiation and compromise with republicans on the border issues , pass ukraine support, and move

on? let's move on up the road. this political fight going on now in congress showing a lack of leadership by both parties in the congress and the president. host: should border security funding be attached to ukraine funding? we heard a conversation this year, should aid for israel be attached to ukraine funding? should all of these be separate issues or should they be attached and pushed through? the same time? ? guest: they should be separate. the fact is republicans have decided they can only address the border issues through the democratic parties in the congress and this democratic president by leveraging this. again, there is a cost to its because we are sending a message into the rest of the world that ukraine funding may be in doubt and that diplomatic message is a bad message.

i know what is going on. democrats have this in their power. they can negotiate a reasonable compromise on the border and get this moving. the solution is there. i want to repeat your viewers the support for ukraine is in america's national interest. this is not some distant thing. this is a serious challenge to the safety of the united states. if this goes haywire in europe and we end up compromising europe, you will see more money being spent. you will see more economy being put in place, a lot of changes of the road that we do not want to have now. right now, the iranians -- ukrainians are doing the fighting for us. all they really need are the tools.

certainly congress is not being a help on this now. host: let me remind our viewers they can take part in this conversation. we will open our regular lines. republicans, you can call in at (202) 748-8001. democrats, your line, (202) 748-8000. independents, you can call (202) 748-8002. if you want text your opinion, we have a line for you, which is (202) 748-8003. we are always reading on social media on x @cspanwj and facebook.com/cspan on facebook at facebook.com/cspan. -- and on facebook at facebook.com/cspan. we have a question from one of our soto -- social mea followers. how do otheruropean countries view our politics?

they added an additional question. what is your opinion on what republican senator tommy tuberville did in the senate when he held up the military promotions? can you answer either of those questions? >> first, how other countries you us, i think they see america as being a vigorous democracy and there is a lot of fighting that goes on here. it is more intense than i have ever seen it. they view us and watch us every day to see how serious are political controversies are in this country. we need national unity to confront authoritarians worldwide. i'm talking about the russians, iranians, chinese, north koreans, and others. they are determined to change the order of things in the world today and not in the best interest of democracy. our allies are willing to

cooperate with us. they are willing to follow our leadership if we are decisive, to be supportive of us. they have put in more money in ukraine than we do. some of my colleagues in the republican party tend to exaggerate how much money we are giving to try to make people hysterical. our allies and adversaries watch what we do every day. they watch is in our news media and congress and at the united nations. they have to watch their policies and decisions based upon what united states is doing. where are we? when i was ambassador, i was taking a very decisive position on behalf of this country. pushing back on the russians, who at that time had not invaded although they were in large measure occupying part of

eastern ukraine. they had not done this major invasion we saw in february. i was pushing back on that on behalf of the united states together with our allies. that is where we are. no matter what the politics for the united states at that time, they looked at the ambassadors to get some clue of where we really were. i was telling them -- translated. host: the tommy tuberville blockade of military promotions in the senate. guest: i understand senator tuberville is representing his state and their views cut with respect to the pro-life issue. i understand that and there is a balance of that kind of politics going on. but the real question members of the senate have to ask themselves is on the holding up of the national leaders. is that compromising america's safety and security?

the military is well organized. i do not think it was stopping what they were doing because of the super bowl position. -- tibor bill position. --tuberville position. host: the u.s. house plans to leave town in a couple weeks to begin their christmas vacation. should congress leave without passing new aid to ukraine? what happens if it does? where is ukraine in the fight against russia? how badly do they need funding? . i think the funding is essential and not the only thing. the only country giving support. u.s. support is essential. if we are not sending support, it has not -- it has an effect on that -- the battlefield and the assertions that it is all being stolen and we should be

sending money to the border, this is all -- a may be legitimate positions by people in good faith, but it is also serving the russian interest to say those things. congress should not go home without passing ukraine funding and is really funding. they should not until they do what is necessary to protect this country. i also want to say one more time that the republicans are doing this because they believe national security on the southern border is important. plenty able to deal with more than one issue at once. this is a great power and great country. we can deal with the southern border and the international crisis. you can do that and we ought to. no matter what, congress should not go home without passing ukraine funding. guest: let's let our viewers take part. we will talk with sidney from --

from louisiana on the end up in a line. caller: i wanted to ask about three points. first, you are talking longer and longer and keeping us on hold and running up my phone bill. then when john mccain overthrew the ukraine in 2014 and was a brutal overthrow and then you talked about the -- when you overthrew them in 1953 and brutalized them for 25 years and then blamed everything on everybody else. host: go ahead and respond. guest: i appreciate the call. i was -- i missed ukraine in may of 2022. i talked to all the cabinet

members there and they were proud of the revolution they had done against the pro-russian people who were trying to move ukraine back into the russian orbit. they were proud of the fact that they had done a revolution. they have had elections. zelenskyy was elected. this is now a working democracy in ukraine. that is in the national interest not only of the united states but all western civilization. that is why they must survive. the point is that this idea that somehow john mccain or somebody was overthrowing ukraine is not true. people will say that kind of thing and there are americans who will accept it, but it is not true. the people there are in charge of their own future. they should be and we should not allow -- we have responsibility with the russian government and the russian people who have decided the way of the future is

conquest, violence, atrocity, rape, murder, kidnapping of children. is that the standard the world will be living in now? those are the issues that are really up-to-date right now. the rest of it, you cannot absolve russians from their responsibility. my hope is that we stand strong and provide american leadership like we did not do before world war two, but we learn from the cold war that american leadership can make the world a better place. host: let's talk to carol from texas on the independent line. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. merry christmas. i wanted to talk about the money

and compare the money we spent in afghanistan for 20 years. we spent the low end estimate, $2 trillion. if you can buy $2 trillion in about the months we were in afghanistan, it works out a $.3 billion a month. if we spent $8.3 billion for two years in ukraine, it would be $200 billion. so we definitely have money to do what needs to be done in ukraine. i wanted to point that out so people do not sit there and say we are spending too much money because we can afford to spend the money. we have done it before. the thing i wanted to ask was three questions direct to mr. gilmore. if donald trump wins the election in 2024, will he pull out of nato? how long do you think the ukrainians will last?

i believe he is going to abandon the ukrainians. then how long will it be before he forces the israelis to capitulate because of his support through russia of syria? thank you. have a great day. host: thanks for -- guest: thanks for the call and merry christmas to you. we do not know what president trump will do in foreign policy. when i was the united states abbasid or in vienna, nobody pushed back on me and will need to for the. they told me to be strong and send a strong american message in europe, which i did. i would continue to if i were ambassador. our investor there now is doing that. we do not know really -- presence trump is pretty cagey about this. he said he could end the war in

a day. probably not. the implication is that the u.s. would surrender and give up on ukraine and nato and all those kinds of things. he did not do that while he was president. he did not do any of that will he was president. i was not directed to do anything to fold or surrender, so we do not really know. he is a little ambiguous about what he is going to do. he thinks he might be able to finish it. you cannot finish it overnight unless either we surrender or putin agrees to withdraw. at the end of the day, putin got -- cannot be permitted to conquer by force. if he gets away with the conquest, he is off to the races. he is already threatened moldova. he has threatened the baltic countries, which are members of nato. i do not believe the united states will pull out of nato. we should continue to lead nato. i do not believe he will abandon ukraine.

i do not believe that is the policy of the republican party. i know and this emerging defeatism and isolationism i see in my party is counterproductive. i do not think it is republican at all, but i think we will find out exactly what president trump will do if he wins. but i do not support the idea of united states surrendering on nato, ukraine, or israel. what we have seen is the same thing. there are a couple things. the losses have killed over 1000 innocent israelis brutally. no matter how you feel about the palestinians, you cannot certify that. you cannot go along with that. they surrendered the ability to be supported by committing atrocities against the jewish people. that is a fact. that is why we have to stand with israel on this.

i noticed the attack in israel has blown ukraine away from the airwaves. no one is talking about it, but it is ukraine that is the key strategic point in the world today. if ukraine succeeds, the russians are not going to you what they need to do to compromise europe and the chinese probably do not do something naughty in taiwan. ukraine is the hinge of history, yet we are not talking about it at all. is a wonderful diversionary tactic, to get us talking about nothing but the middle east war when the real key strategic point is ukraine. host: let's talk to kim from kennesaw, georgia. on the republican line. . caller: thank you for taking my call. master gilmore i tend to disagree on the fact that russia is a national security threat

with the border in ukraine. our bigger national security threat is our southern border and china's activity in the western hemisphere. that is a much greater threat to americans. money is a finite resource. my opinion differs from the gentleman caller before. money is a finite resource, and ukraine appears to be a huge money laundering operation. americans cannot afford this. they are paying for it in our health care system. we are paying for it in our education system and in a poor infrastructure. we are paying for that in all these ways. i am not sure that america's national security interests would be better focused on new world issues and leave the old world problems to europe and the old world -- our focus needs to

be hundred percent in the western hemisphere in my opinion. perhaps a return to the munro doctrine -- monroe doctrine would be appropriate. guest: thank you. i am respectful of the call. that is a great thing about c-span. we can talk directly about these issues. i do not think there is any fact that supports the idea that the money we are sending for military support, much of it goes for our contractors to be able to provide that support, that fax our sibling out there. that this is an international money laundering operation, although people will say something like that. the defense department, state department, american people have inspected -- inspector generals and accountants watching us closely because they know that people out there are saying that somehow is a money laundering

operation and they are doing what they can to be careful about that kind of thing. ukrainians understood they had an old soviet russian history and background and they knew the correction had to be fought. they are at least moving things in the right direction. but the fact is that there is no evidence that somehow american money is being stolen by corrupt people. the fact is that american policy should not be governed by that kind of thing. i am a big supporter of american sovereignty and the monroe doctrine. i think it has been compromised because of weak leadership at the national level for a long time. i am a supporter of all of that. china is a long-term problem.

but they are not triggering a war yet. the russians have triggered a war in order to compromise safety and security of europe. i want to repeat for the second time, the safety and security and liberty an alliance of europe with united states is essential to the existence of united states of america. just like in the 1930's, you can take an isolationist point of view. you can do that. in world war ii, he got into that late -- we got into that late. europe was allowed to almost collapse before america finally ended up getting in it. that is the kind of policy being promoted today. people are listening to it. they are entitled to their opinion, but i disagree with that.

american leadership is essential to secure our safety and the liberties and values we stand for us americans. we have a lot of cash because of the success of the people of the united states. i am not in favor of it. i ran for governor on a tax cut program, so i am respectful of american money. the fact is that it costs a lot of money for the safety and security of the united states of america. always hands. building those aircraft carriers into cheap. supporting our air force is expensive. if you are going to protect the people of united states, one of america's first obligations, it costs a lot of money. we have to be prepared to do that. host: let's talk to richard from missouri on the democratic line. caller: good morning. i wonder how long it is before

russia gets tired of being killed in ukraine. that will probably stop the war quicker than anything else, when they find out their kids and husbands are dying over there. mussolini and that guy we got, they are dictators. some guys going to be a dictator for a day, he will find a spider somewhere. guest: the caller raises a good question, what i mast all the time -- i am asked all the time. what is the indie game in ukraine? americans want things quickly. we lose interest. we get frustrated. i international politics. president putin understands that. he runs an authoritarian country

. he can last a long time as well -- as long as the russian people are willing to get all their husbands and sons killed come out which i think is a responsibility of the russian people, not just the dictator. the fact is -- what is the end game? it is that ukraine has to stay the course as long as they are willing to in order to protect themselves. if the russians take over ukraine, the independent people there will be murdered. they know that. they are fighting for their own liberty and independence. we are supporting that. what is the end game? we have to outlast the russians. that is the game plan that putin has put in place. we have to outlast the russians. is that possible? it is possible. we already saw their mercenaries rebel against them. we have seen mothers and wives in russia began to protest, which is unusual.

we are seeing stress and strain their money and inflation. they are not completely immune from pressures that they are imposing on their own people. we are just going to have to outlast them. putin's strategy is to win the war here in united states of america. his strategy is to stay the course until america quits. that is why i disagree with the defeatist and isolationists in my own party. if there are any in the democratic party, i disagree with them too. we have to stay the course as long as ukrainians are willing to stand up for their own life, liberty, and sovereignty. i think it is in our interest to support it. the british and french and other countries i interacted with are in it. a couple things viewers ought

understand is should not exaggerate american support. we are the biggest dollar supporter by percentage of gdp we are down the line. there is major support from europe because they understand what is going on. they lived the soviet conquest. they lived under a regime where the knock on the door happened in the middle of the night. they know what that is all about. and they are not going back. that is what they told me and i was ambassador in europe. host: what do we see coming up next week when it comes to ukraine funding? do we see any chance of congress coming to a decision or is it already not support for it? guest: that is the politics on the united states congress. it would appear they are

planning to go without a compromise, which means there will not be funding for israel or ukraine. this is not good. it is not good for the safety and security of the united states of america. if this goes haywire in europe, they will be looking for who is for it. many members of congress will be held accountable for this kind of mismanagement going on today. by both parties. i think the democrats get over here and do something on our southern border, which we agree is an issue. the enemies may be coming in. it needs to be addressed. democrats have time now to do that. they are leveraging and want to leverage ukraine support to make republicans follow on the southern border and vice versa. republicans are using ukraine supports to get the democrats to make some compromise on the southern border. we understand that.

support for ukraine and israel but especially ukraine is vital now and should be passed right now. there are ways to do that with appropriate congressional leadership. host: we would like to thank former u.s. ambassador to the organization for security and cooperation in europe, former virginia governor jim gilmore, for being with us this morning and talking is three to to ukraine. thank you for your time. guest: i appreciate your viewers. host: i would like to thank all our guests, callers, and social media viewers for another great "washington journal." continue to wash her hands and say thanks. have a great sunday. we will see you tomorrow morning. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2023] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]