in session last september. ♪

brian: daryl davis, what impact did chuck berry have on your life? mr. davis: chuck berry had a very profound impact on me. the man was a genius. you know, many people can say that they wrote a song, maybe they can say that they played a song, but few people can claim that they invented a genre of music. chuck berry certainly did that. we would not have rock and roll without chuck berry and when i first heard chuck berry, i fell in love with that music and when i saw him, i changed my whole career trajectory that i was on as a kid. i was going to be a computer programmer. back then, computers were of course as big as -- twice as big as this room -- or an espionage agent. and each one was pulling at me with equal force, so i was immobilized. i couldn't move either way and i kept trying to figure out you know, how can i do both? and back then of course, it was no way. today, you can through cyber

espionage, but i saw chuck berry somewhere along that pathway, as a kid and i said, “that's what i want to do.” and what it was, was that chuck berry, and another fellow, elvis presley, i had seen him too, had made millions upon millions of people all over the world happy with their music. they had touched them without even knowing them and that fascinated me. i said, “you know what, that's what i want to do. i want to be able to bring joy to people whether i ever meet them or not.” brian: what was the story about your first meeting with chuck berry? mr. davis: well, chuck berry was coming to cole field house at the university of maryland, the sports arena there. it was going to be chuck berry and jerry lee lewis and of course, i got down there super early hoping i would, you know, be able to sneak in and maybe meet him during sound check or rehearsal and because i knew that the promoter had to supply a backing band for him. so the concert would not begin until like about 8:00 p.m. that

evening and i was a kid, i got a ride down there and around noon time, you know, like eight hours before show time, and the hanger doors were open. people were like bringing in equipment and speakers and lights and things like that. i just walked on in. nobody stopped me, so i said, you know, there was no security there at that particular time and so, i just hung out back there out of everybody's way. the band came and i moved over near the stage where the band was figuring that when chuck comes for the sound check, you know, i'll get to see my idol and meet him or whatever. and the band was very nervous. they'd never worked with chuck berry before. they were down from new jersey to play for him and their sound check was at 2:00, so they assumed that he would be there around 2:00. well, 2:00 rolled around and no chuck berry and they even got more nervous and so they were there on stage, they did their sound check, they ran through some chuck berry songs and they

sounded fantastic. and you know, the hours ticked by and still no chuck berry, and so they went on at the beginning of the show, you know, did a short set and then, jerry lee lewis came and i got to meet him and he came on and did his thing, still no chuck berry. and about -- about 15 minutes or so before jerry lee finished, in walked chuck berry through the backstage door. he came in just by himself. no guitar, nothing. and he walked right by me and i froze. i was like, “oh,” because you know, it was chuck, total shock. he went right by me and there was somebody standing down the hallway and he stopped and spoke with that person. i don't know what he said, but in retrospect, i do. that person pointed further down the hallway to a door and chuck, you know, went down and went inside that door and a few minutes later, he came back out, went right back by me again, back outside the backstage door and then he returned with his

guitar. and so in retrospect, what happened was, he went down to the promoter's office to get payed upfront and then he went and got his guitar. he doesn't bring his guitar in until he has money. so, brought his guitar in and then you know, i was standing over there near where the band was. he came over and the band leader walked up to him, he was like taking his guitar out of the case and said, “hi,” you know, “my name is bruce springsteen, we're your backup band. we thought you were going to be here this afternoon.” he just said, “no.” you know, just totally oblivious. and he said, “we ran through some of your songs. i think everything should be ok. do you know which ones, you know, you are going to play tonight?” and chuck says something to the effect of, “i think i'll play some chuck berry.” and he went on stage. the band went on right after him and he was just like -- he went right into it. no key, no count off, nothing. and the band was right there with him and that just kind of

just like blew my mind. brian: and you slipped in the word -- the name bruce springsteen. mr. davis: right. at that time -- brian: what year was this? mr. davis: this was like 1972, 1973. somewhere around there. april of 1972 or 1973. brian: you were what? 15? mr. davis: yes. i was born in 1958. brian: anybody ever heard of bruce springsteen? mr. davis: at the time, no one had ever heard of bruce springsteen outside of asbury park, new jersey. you know, and so the name didn't mean anything to me and then like, i don't know, years -- so later, he was on the cover of time magazine, you know, and so it was like, “wow.” you know, that's that same guy. brian: i want to show some video then. that was like in the early 1970's. this is in 1997. if people look closely, they'll see you at the piano, so let's watch this clip. mr. davis: ok. [video starts] ♪

mr. berry: ♪ well, in the evening when the sun is sinking low. all day i been waiting for the whistle to blow. sitting in a tee pee built right on the tracks. rolling them bones until the foreman comes back. ♪ ♪ [video ends] brian: how did you end up on that stage? mr. davis: that's the really funny story. it was "late night with david letterman" and i knew chuck was going to be on there and i called him and i said, “hey,” you know, “i'm now coming up to new york and hang out with you”" and he said, “all right.” so i took the train or the bus up to new york and i went to the studio where that thing is taped and he had my name on the guest list, you know, at the backstage where security was, and he wasn't there yet. so they let me in and they said, “mr. berry is not here yet, but you're welcome to either go to his dressing room or go in the green room.” so i stopped by the green room, tony randall was in there and roseanne barr and a couple of other people, who were going to be on the show.

david does like two separate tapings per night. and so then i went up to the green room, i mean, to chuck's dressing room and eventually he came and we were just sitting there and then this producer walks in and says, “hi, mr. berry. my name is whatever, and you know, i have you slated to do roll over beethoven with paul shaffer and his band,” and chuck said, “this is my piano player, daryl davis.” and she started flipping through pages of her clipboard looking for my name. she was, “oh, i didn't know your piano player was going to be here. we have paul shaffer slated here.” and he says, “this is my piano player, daryl davis. daryl, give your social security number so you can get paid.” i had not even planned on playing, you know, i just came to hang out. and i was like, “oh goodness.” you know, so i gave her my social because i am also, you

know, a member of sag and all of that, and musicians union, and so she was like all flustered. she said, “well, ok, i will talk to mr. shaffer and then you all are going to perform roll over beethoven,” and chuck said, “no. i think i'll do let it rock.” and she was like, “huh,” just totally, you know, lost and she says, “well, mr. shaffer has been rehearsing the group with roll over beethoven,” and chuck said, “like i said, i think i'll do let it rock. daryl, go on down there and rehearse the band.” so i went down there and there was paul shaffer and paul shaffer is not only one of the most talented musicians in this country. he is totally underrated. the guy is a genius, just a topnotch musician. not only is he one of the most talented musicians of this country, he is also one of the nicest and most humblest and he had no problem with it whatsoever and i rehearsed the band on let it rock and then he asked me, he said, “hey, you

know, would you like to stay up here through the commercials and stuff and play with us, you know, until chuck comes on and play with him when he comes on”" i said, “thank you for the invitation.” brian: about this time, our regular viewers are saying, what in the world are they talking about there? we don't normally talk music on this show and there's a lot more to this story than the music, but i want to go back to how did you develop a relationship with chuck berry and then what impact did he have on your thinking about the humanity and race relations and things like that in this country? mr. davis: well, you know, people like chuck berry, elvis presley, little richard, jerry lee lewis, fats domino, buddy holly, bo diddley -- you know, these people are the pioneers of rock and roll. back in the day, prior to rock and roll, music halls, concert venues were segregated if they allowed black people in at all. you know, there were ropes that went around the sitting sections

with signs hanging that would say, “seating for white patrons only,” or “colored sitting only.” and that jim crow law was still in place in the 1950's, so you know, if you and i, we're going to go see glenn miller or somebody, sinatra in the 1940's, we could not sit together. we had to sit in our designated seating sections according to the color of our skin, so even in the 1950's that law was in place. but two phenomenons happened. one, the invention of rock and roll by people like chuck berry, little richard, fats domino, bo diddley and the popularization of it by people like elvis presley, jerry lee lewis, carl perkins, buddy holly, bill haley and the comets. when white kids and black kids heard that new rhythm, that new beat, that boogie-woogie with a backbeat to it, they could not sit still. they bounced up out of their chairs, knocked the ropes over and the signs over and the next thing you know, they were boogying and dancing in the aisles together for the first

time in the history of this country. police would come in and shut down the show. so rock and roll had brought white youths and black youths together through music. the same thing that great civil rights activists like martin luther king, rosa parks and many other ones -- black and white -- were trying to achieve through their marches, through their demonstrations, their sit-ins, their boycotts in efforts to bring white and black adults together. chuck berry and elvis were achieving this through music and that attracted me as well. brian: how long have you been a musician? mr. davis: professionally? well, since i graduated college in 1980. brian: where did you graduate from? mr. davis: from howard university in washington, d.c. with my degree in jazz, but you know, i was playing slightly before that, during college, you know, during my formative learning years, i was kind of a late bloomer when it came to music. i started when i was 17 in high school, a junior.

brian: i want to jump way out of context. there is a new documentary about you on netflix and it's called “accidental courtesy.” you've gotten a lot of publicity over the years for the things that you've been involved in, but let's just run a brief clip of this and then i'll ask you to fill in the blanks. mr. davis: sure. [video starts] it's a robe of an imperial wizard, the top guy. this is a white cotton robe with blue adornments, blue stripes, blue sash, and blue cape. and of course you see the klan emblem, the mioak. the red blood drop in the center signifies that they will shed their blood to preserve the white race. and if you look along the white cross, look at that black line right there and then these two diagonal lines, they form a k, so you see four k's essentially and that stands for knights of the ku klux klan. people say to me, “daryl, how can you have this stuff?” you know, “why don't you burn it?” well no. as shameful as it is, this is a

part of american history. you don't burn our history regardless -- the good, the bad and the ugly. and the ku klux klan is as american as baseball, apple pie and chevrolet. [video ends] brian: what's the story behind the documentary? mr. davis: well, a book on me came out that i wrote in 1997 in hard back and paper back in 1998 called klan-destine -- spelled with a k -- relationships, klan-destine relationships in which i went around the country and interviewed klan leaders and klan members based on an experience i had as a child. when i was a kid, i had a racist incident while marching with the cub scouts. i had people throwing rocks and bottles at me, you know, white spectators and i did not understand why i was the target, and then when racism was explained to me, i could not accept it. i'd never heard of racism and i could not get my head around the idea that someone who had never spoken to me, someone who knew nothing about me or had ever

seen me before would want to hurt me for no other reason than the color of my skin. and i formed a question at the age of 10 in 1968, which was, “how can you hate me when you don't even know me?” and i've been seeking that answer now for the next, you know, 49 years. and i bought books on black supremacy, white supremacy, the nazis in germany, the neo nazis over here, the ku klux klan, looking for the answer in these books and i couldn't find it. so in my adult life, i figured, “well, who better to ask than someone who would join an organization that is reputed to believe that somebody else is inferior to whom that does not look like them or believe as they believe based on the color of their skin or their religious beliefs?” so i said, i would seek out klan members and ask them to answer the question and then i would get my answer. so the book came out. of course, a lot of publicity came behind that.

my book is the first book by a black author on the ku klux klan with face to face, in person interviews. so that generated publicity and you know, different producers of documentaries and things like that began contacting me, you know, wanting to do a documentary on this work. and so, years later after sifting through a lot of them, we decided on these particular producers and thus was the product, “accident courtesy” of which you just showed a clip. brian: who was the first member of the ku klux klan that you met and how did you do it? mr. davis: well, the first one that i ever met, it was a pretty negative encounter. it ended up in violence, but the first one that i met to sit down and interview, he was the leader of the ku klux klan in the state of maryland. now a state leader is what's known as a grand dragon, which we would call a governor, oversees the entire state. and then the top guy, the national guy who oversees all of

the states which we would call a president, that person is known as the imperial wizard. so the grand dragon, his name was roger kelly and he went from grand dragon and eventually to imperial wizard. he was the first one that i met and sat down with and had a conversation. brian: how did you set it up? mr. davis: well, i had my secretary. my secretary was white and not that i care, but i mention it because it's very important to the story. i had acquired roger kelly's personal address and phone number and i gave it to her and the person who gave it to me warned me, “daryl, do not fool with mr. kelly. you know, you'd get yourself killed,” and i wanted to sit him down and talk to him. so that was not going to deter me, but i wanted to make it -- so i didn't jinx myself. i had my secretary call him and i figured you know, if i called him, he might pick up in my voice that i'm black, so i am not talking to you, click and then my whole project would have

ended before it ever got started. so i knew that if she called him that he would just automatically know from her voice, that you know, this is a white lady and he would not automatically assume that this white woman was working for a black man, especially a black man who is writing a book on the klan because they didn't exist at the time. so she called him and i had told her, “do not tell him that i am black unless he asks. if he asks, don't lie to him, but don't allude to it. don't give him reason to ask,” because if he agrees to do you know, he'll figure that out when he sees me and then he can make up his mind right then and there if he wants to talk to me or not. because you know, i figured, if i am going to meet him, i want to be spontaneous. i didn't want him to have -- if he agreed knowing that i was black, i didn't want him to have different answers for a white interviewer than he would have for a black interviewer. so she called and she spoke with him and he agreed to meet with

me and did not ask what color i was. brian: what was his reaction? mr. davis: well, we had it set up for a motel room and when he showed up, we were already in the room and i had a bucket of ice with cans of soda there so i could be hospitable and offer him a beverage. well, he showed up with his bodyguard, which is called a grand knight hawk. a grand knight hawk is a bodyguard to the grand dragon, like an imperial knight hawk would be the bodyguard for the imperial wizard. so this grand knight hawk walked into the room first and he was wearing military camouflage, fatigues with the mioak, the blood drop emblem right here and the initials kkk right here on his chest, embroidered across his beret on his head were knights of the ku klux klan, and on his hip, he had a semi-automatic handgun in the holster. he came in and he was followed right behind him by mr. kelly, the grand dragon in a dark blue suit and tie.

when the knight hawk entered the room and turned the corner and saw me, he just froze and mr. kelly bumped into his back because the guy stopped short and they stumbled and regained their balance looking all around the room and i knew what they were thinking. they were thinking, you know, either the desk clerk gave them the wrong room number or this was a setup, this is an ambush. so i went like this to display my hands. nothing in them, and i stood up and i approached him. i said, “hi, mr. kelly. my name is daryl davis. come on in.” both he and the knight hawk shook my hand. so far so good, and they both came in. brian: and then what? mr. davis: well, i asked him to have a seat. he sat down. he asked me for some identification and i gave that to him and then we proceeded with this interview. now, i had a bag beside me and in my bag, i had a copy of the bible because the ku klux klan claims to be a christian organization and they also claim

that the bible preaches racial separation. now, in my reading of the bible, i'd never seen that in there, so i wanted to be able to pull out my bible and say, “here, please show me chapter and verse where it says blacks and whites must be separate.” i also had blank cassettes in the bag because i had a cassette player sitting in the middle of the table to record my interview. well, we began talking back and forth. he let me know that i was inferior because i was black and you know -- brian: did he say why? mr. davis: yes, because black people have smaller brains and we are basically inclined to be lazy and uneducated and things like that. you know, all the stereotypes. brian: physical reaction to that having him sitting across from you? mr. davis: well, it's interesting because when he was sitting across from me, he was wearing a suit and tie and you know, i know who i am and i am confident in who i am, so that wasn't going to throw me.

and i was expecting stuff like that because you know, i'd read all of these books on the klan already, so i knew the mentality. but i wanted to draw everything out of him to find out you know, how can he hate me when he doesn't even know me and hasn't even given me a chance to express myself and see if he still has those feelings. brian: what happened to that relationship? mr. davis: we became, you know the best of friends eventually. brian: the best of friends. mr. davis: the best of friends eventually. brian: what does that mean? mr. davis: it means we would hang out. we would go out to dinner. you know, not on the next day or the next week, but over time. you know, there was an incident that happened in the room that was a teaching moment. i won't say it was a learning moment. you know, that will come later. but every time i would reach down to pull out a fresh cassette or pull out the bible because he made some biblical reference, whenever i reached down, the knight hawk would reach up to his gun because he

didn't know what was in that bag, and you know, understandably. so, eventually, he realized there was no threat in the bag and he relaxed and i went in and out of the bag, no problem. a little later on in the interview, there was kind of a strange noise in the room and we all jumped and i just knew that mr. kelly had made the noise because i didn't make it and because i could not discern what the noise was, i proceeded to be ominous and threatening and plus, i was hearing that voice in my head, “daryl, don't fool with roger kelly. he'll kill you,” kind of thing. and i was ready to attack. you know, my eyes had locked with his eyes because i am looking at him like, “what did you just do?” i didn't say that, but my eyes were speaking to him. his eyes had locked with mine and i could read the expression in his eyes, which were saying to me, “what did you just do?” and the knight hawk had his hand on his gun looking back and forth between the two of us,

like, what did either one of you all just do? well, my secretary was over to my left sitting on top of the dresser because there were no more chairs there and she realized what had happened. the ice in the bucket had melted and the cans of soda shifted and that's what made the noise and then we all began laughing at how ignorant we all had been. but the teaching moment was this, all because some foreign and underscore, highlight the word foreign entity of which we were ignorant, that being the bucket of ice and cans of soda, entered into our little comfort zone via the noise that it made, we became fearful and accusatory of one another. so the lesson learned is, ignorance breeds fear. if you don't keep that fear in check that fear will breed hatred because we hate those things that frighten us. if you don't keep that hatred in check, that hatred will breed destruction. brian: from the documentary, “accidental courtesy,” can you buy this too if you don't have netflix?

mr. davis: yes. you can buy it. you can order it from the company or itunes, netflix. brian: here's somebody that kicked back at you, somebody of your own race. let's watch this and then tell us all about it. mr. davis: sure. [video starts] mr. rose: stop wasting your time going into people's houses that don't love you, a house where they want to pull you under the basement. mr. davis: so you believe that nobody can change? mr. rose: no, i believe you believe the wrong people can change. mr. davis: what do you mean the wrong people can change? mr. rose: the white supremacists can't change. mr. davis: you don't believe they can change? mr. rose: no, white supremacists can't change, but i can change your mind because you look like me. you ain't doing nothing but collecting something that's going to build your own credibility. you are nothing but a pimp in a pulpit. mr. davis: and you're nothing but ignorant. [video ends] brian: who was that? where was that done? mr. davis: that was done in baltimore and that guy is my friend now. his name is kwame rose. he is an activist with black lives matter and that was done roughly, a little -- about a year and a couple of months ago

and kwame rose and another gentleman who was also there, you didn't see in the clip, we had dinner together about a month ago and all of those differences have been resolved. he was not fully aware of what i do and how i do it. he had received bad information. prior to that scene right there, i had met him outside the bar where that scene took place and the first thing he said to me was upon our very first meeting of seeing each other was, “i understand you're the first black member of the kkk.” so that right there, you know, was his mindset and of course, you know, if there were black members of the kkk, there wouldn't be a kkk. so he had bad information and he was acting upon that without getting the back story and now that he and i have gotten together and talked, we are friends and we have agreed to work together to fight this

disease called racism. brian: what kind of a family did you grow up in? mr. davis: my parents were u.s. foreign service, so i spent a lot of time you know, overseas in various countries around the world, you know, i was an american embassy brat. and today, as a professional musician, i travel all over this country and around the world. if you combine my travels as a child with now, my travels as an adult, i'd been in 53 different countries on six continents. brian: what difference do you think it made for you that you saw other worlds? mr. davis: you know, it made a world -- i mean, not to use a pun here, but it made a world of difference because i was exposed early on to many, many different cultures, ethnicities, nationalities, traditions, colors, religions, et cetera and all of that helped shape who i have become and i saw people

from all over the world getting along with each other. when i was in grade school overseas, and i'd be there for two years and come back home, be here for a few months or a year and then go back to another country. when i was a kid in the 1960's and in the elementary school, my classes were filled with other kids from nigeria, italy, japan, russia, france, germany -- anybody who had an embassy in those countries, all of their kids, we all went to the same school and that's how i grew up. if you were to peep your head into my classroom door, you would say that looks like a united nations of little kids. that scenario was not here, back here in my own country in the u.s. when i would return, i would either be newly integrated or still segregated schools, i had not quite gotten there yet, so i was either surrounded by all black people or black and white people. today, when you walk into a school classroom, you see what i saw, but back then, i was living

12 to 15 years ahead of my time. brian: more from “accidental courtesy.” this is another discussion you're having about a man named robert white. it's about 35 seconds. [video starts] mr. davis: robert white got busted for assault and attempted murder, two black men with a shotgun. he went on to become a very good friend of mine. will you come to my wedding? >> sure, i'll be at your wedding if you want me there -- >> why would you go to his wedding if you don't believe in the mixing of races? >> i would attend his wedding if he wants me there, just because it's daryl. mr. davis: as a result of our friendship, he left the klan. this is his klan robe, his grand dragon robe. his day job was this. this is his jacket. baltimore city police officer. [video ends] brian: where is he today? mr. davis: robert white has since passed. brian: how long ago? mr. davis: in 2007.

brian: how did he become your friend? mr. davis: well, he was in prison when i first contacted him. i went to interview him for my book and we had a correspondence back and forth not knowing that i was black. he was vehemently racist and anti-semitic. a very, very vicious and violent man. and shortly before he got out of prison, he found out that i was black. he had some of his klan people on the outside come check me out and report back to him and he was all upset that i had not informed him of the color of my skin and i said, “what difference does that make? you know, you said, you would tell me truth when you get out and we get together. did the truth differ when you talk to a white person than to a black person? so he said, “no, he agreed.” and so we got together and as i said, he was, you know very angry, very violent, very hateful, but we kept getting together time and time and time again and he began to see me as a human being and over time, he began to shed that ideology.

but just to address another point you know, of my growing up and traveling to different places and being exposed to these things. one of my very favorite quotes of all time is by mark twain, it's called the travel quote and mark twain says, “travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. broad wholesome charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” brian: who was the fellow sitting at the table with you in that video? mr. davis: that gentleman was a former baltimore city police officer and you know, the baltimore city police department has been saturated with racist police officers and ku klux klan members such as bob white and the other ones that he's told me about himself. brian: how big is the ku klux klan in the united states today? mr. davis: you know, no one really knows for sure.

you know, the mentality is certainly very large. in terms of just the klan itself, the klan members as opposed to you know, every white supremacist in different organizations, i think the adl and the southern poverty law center estimate between 5000 to 8000 members. brian: if you go back to the early 1920's, the numbers are four million? mr. davis: yes, three million alone in indiana. brian: it goes right down the list over the years -- less and less of the ku klux klan, why has it lessened in membership? mr. davis: it has lessened in membership because people evolve and you know they begin to appreciate one another when they come in contact with one another. but it has its ebbs and flows. you know, it rises, it falls, it rises, it falls. and a lot of people while they want to be -- they don't want to

be associated with let's say with blacks and jews, they don't also want to be associated with the violence that the klan brings either for moral reasons or for legal reasons. so you know, they'll drop out and join some other racist group like the white citizens council, you know, which is more political. they put people in positions of leadership in order to institutionalize those racist beliefs. brian: did you ask anybody to let you go to a meeting of the kkk? mr. davis: absolutely, and i was invited to meetings. in fact, i would go to meetings and klan rallies and see these things and document them for my book. in fact, about just over a month ago, the tennessee and kentucky chapters of the klan invited me down there to come to one of their meetings and speak to them. brian: did you? mr. davis: i absolutely did, yes, absolutely. brian: what did you tell them? mr. davis: i told them a lot. i told them about you know, what i felt about what happened recently in charlottesville and

some of the other things you know that i felt their perspectives were skewed and they sat and listened and then i did a q&a at the end and some asked me questions and then we all went out and had lunch together. brian: you mentioned earlier that your first meeting with a member of the kkk was violent. mr. davis: yes. brian: can you tell us that story? mr. davis: well, i just finished a gig -- a musical performance -- and i was going across this parking lot to get something to eat at this all night restaurant, your greasy spoon or whatever you want to call it. and as i pulled into my parking space, i saw a man straddled across a woman on the sidewalk. he was sitting on her and he was banging her head into the sidewalk and hitting her in the face. and you know, i was shocked and i pulled in my space and i was going to go over there and pull him off and when i got out of the car -- he was oblivious to me. he was just going at it and i just pulled in you know, two spaces away from him and when i got out of the car and closed my

door, he like jumped up and looked at me and he said, “what are you looking at, nigger?” and to me that was open invitation. i said, “i'm looking at you.” and he got up off of her and he came and he attacked me and i had to put him down. i had to hurt him and put him down. and now people were standing around watching this and doing nothing about it, nothing. they did not call the police. now, these were white people watching this white man beat up this white woman. they did not call the police until this black man beat up the white guy. then they called the police. well, these two officers came and something was very strange. they would not arrest the guy. i wanted him arrested for assault and they would not arrest him. they told him however to leave the premises and if he were to set foot back on this property

within 24 hours, he would be arrested for trespassing. and i said, “well, i want him arrested now,” well, he left and they said, “well, you'll have to go fill out a warrant,” or whatever else at the police station. i said, “okay.” so i went inside. i got some ice for this lady. i applied it to the back of her head and helped her and i asked her, i said, “you know, i want to have him arrested, not only for assaulting me but for what he did to you et cetera,” you know, “i'm happy to come to court if you want to press charges against him, would you be willing to testify on my behalf?” and she said, yes. she gave me her phone number and her address and stuff. so i helped her fix up her head. i went down to the police station and the commissioner gave me this thing to fill out and i'm filling out my complaint and i asked him, i said -- now, these are county cops who came to respond. i asked him, i said, “how long will it take before this guy is served?” because i made the police give me his information, which they did.

so the commissioner said, “well, it goes from here to the sheriff's and they dispatch a deputy maybe three days.” i said, “okay,” and so i am filling it out and in walks the guy, the guy that i beat up. in he walks into the police station with two state police officers on either side of him and he's in handcuffs. i said, “well, that's him right there. that's him right there.” and the commissioner said, “well, sign it and i will serve him right now.” so i signed it, the commissioner took it, rolled it up, took off a copy, rolled it up and walked out there and stuck it in between the guy's arms because he was handcuffed like this. and so i found out later on what happened was this. when the two original cops -- the county cops left because he left first because they told him to leave. he came back looking for me to finish the fight. i wasn't there. i'm down at the police station. he goes inside the restaurant

and picks a fight with some other black guy and so, this time, the state police responded and you know, they were having none of that and they had locked him up. brian: what happened to him eventually? mr. davis: well, what i've come to find out is, from this woman, she was his ex-fiancee. she had left him because he was seeing somebody else who he had gotten pregnant and he was like, “well, if i can't have you, nobody will,” bam-bam-bam. so she tells me that he is a high ranking official on the county fire department and he's a member of the ku klux klan, so i beat up a klansman. he's a fireman which explained to me why the two county police officers did not arrest him. they knew each other. brian: should i assume that you did not become friends with this klansman? mr. davis: yes, you can assume that, yes. brian: back to your relationship with a man named frank ancona? mr. davis: that's frank ancona, yes. brian: yes, ancona. let's watch this. [video starts] mr. ancona: the klan and our constitution, you know says we

want to maintain white supremacy in america. you all see, the crow and the eagle don't fly together. they're both birds, but they don't mix together. i mean that's one of the reasons we should have all of our own nations. when it comes to race, you know, everybody thinks that the klan is a hate organization, i mean, but you have churches that only cater to blacks, though? >> yes, because we couldn't get into the white churches. mr. ancona: you got me. klans men, forward march. klans men, halt. right face. for my god. for my god. for my country. for my country. for my klan. for my klan. [video ends] brian: how much do they really believe in that kind of a ceremony? mr. davis: a lot of them do believe that very heavily. you know, they are inundated and initiated with a ceremony and it makes them feel like they belong

to something. it's a fraternity. you know, it's not a fraternity that you or i would join, but it's a fraternity where each one has each other's back and they strongly believe in that. brian: you brought some of your possessions with you. mr. davis: i did. brian: hold that up if you would please so we can see what it is and you did explain that earlier, but how did you get a hold of the -- mr. davis: this is a grand dragon's robe, which means state leader. and you have your choice of a white cotton robe with -- green is the color for the grand level with green stripes, a green cape and a green sash. again, this is the blood drop emblem or the mioak that all klan members use. here, you have the dragon patch signifying his rank. under the cape, you see another dragon patch.

you also could have a green -- full green satin robe. again, that's personal choice. cotton or satin? if it's a cotton, it would be white with different color of adornments. if it's satin, the whole thing would be that color. brian: did you have to buy those by the way? mr. davis: did i buy them? no. they were given to me. brian: by klan's men? mr. davis: they were given to me by active klan members who left the organization. brian: what's the next one? mr. davis: this is the robe of an imperial wizard. ok, this is the top guy and blue or purple, your choice. it designates the imperial level. again, this is a white cotton robe with blue adornments. brian: can you buy those online? mr. davis: that i don't know. i doubt it, unless somebody is you know, selling one who has one. brian: what's the last one there? the green one? is that the one you were just talking about? mr. davis: yes, here, this green one here is another grand dragon's robe. this one belonged to bob white. the gentleman that we were talking about in the “accidental courtesy” foot that you showed,

the baltimore city police officer. and he was imprisoned for four years for conspiring to bomb a synagogue in baltimore. brian: as a police officer? mr. davis: as a police officer, all right, then he got put off -- well, he was forced to resign from the police department because he was bringing embarrassment to them. they knew who he was and they knew what he was doing, but as long as he did not bring, you know, any repercussions to them, they turned a blind eye to it and there were others on that force. ok, so here is his robe and he preferred the satin, so a full green satin robe, but there's no difference between that one and the cotton one. here is his baltimore city police uniform. brian: how long ago was he a baltimore policeman? mr. davis: this was back in the 1970's. brian: where is he now? mr. davis: he is deceased now. brian: i want to go back to frank ancona. mr. davis: yes.

brian: i want to show you some video from cbs news this year in february and then talk about this gentleman after they see this. mr. davis: sure. [video starts] >> in missouri, a ku klux klan leader is shot and killed in his bedroom and officials say his own family was behind the murder. frank ancona's body was found saturday about 20 miles from his home. he had been shot in the head. >> prosecutors say his klan membership was not a factor in the killing but rather that the motive was more personal. they say ancona told his wife he wanted a divorce. malissa ancona and her son paul jinkerson are charged with first degree murder, tampering with evidence, and abandonment of a corpse. investigators say jinkerson was the one who pulled the trigger and that malissa helped clean up the scene. both are being held without bail. [video ends] brian: how good a friend had he become of yours? mr. davis: frank ancona had become a very, very good friend. i'd been in his home several times. i knew his wife, malissa. brian: what happened to her

after all of this? any word? mr. davis: well, she's in jail right now and she is blaming the son and the son is blaming her. and in fact, frank ancona and i were such good friends, all right, you know, i would say if he was still alive, within a year's time, he would have been out of the klan and he would have given me his robe. ok, today, i do own his robe, but i'll get to that in a second. i knew what had happened to my friend, frank ancona, before the police did. brian: why? mr. davis: believe it or not, all right. i was sitting at a friend of mine's house going through some video and he's at the little video editor and i got a call just after midnight and it was from a klansman and he said, “daryl, i believe frank has gone missing.” and i said, “what do you mean?” and he went on to say that frank had not gone to work. he was not home and he thought there was something odd going on.

and because, you know, frank and malissa were kind of at odds. now, frank loved his wife, i can tell you that. he genuinely loved his wife. he was a courier. he would drive across state delivering different things and oftentimes, he would call me on the phone while he was in his car by himself just to you know, check on me or for me to keep him company while he was driving. and i knew he loved her, but he was talking about the issues with her because she was an opioid addict and a methamphetamine addict, so he was considering leaving her. and anyway, this guy tells me that he thinks malissa had something to do with it. and i said, “oh you know, maybe he just went somewhere just to cool down or whatever.” he goes, “i don't think so, daryl.” so then he said he was going to dig a little further because he said he had talked to malissa and her story wasn't quite adding up. she kept being ambiguous. so he said, he would talk to her

some more. he called me back around 4:00 in the morning and told me, “frank is dead.” and he had talked to the wife and she told him what happened and what had gone on. she confessed to him. he told me, and this is before -- it wasn't until about maybe three days later that the police found out what happened. brian: you know, just listening to your talk here in the last 45 minutes or so, you get the impression that every time you come in contact with a klan's member, you become friends. mr. davis: not every time. you know -- brian: tell me what happens when you don't become friends. mr. davis: you don't become friends. brian: no, but i mean what is the dialogue back and forth and how do you know that you're not getting through? mr. davis: because you know, well, you have people who are ignorant and you have people who are stupid and, you know, we all are ignorant to a certain degree because we don't know everything, but an ignorant person is someone who can learn.

you give me the facts, you give me the proper information, you have alleviated my ignorance and i can apply that to make the right decision or a good choice, but if i am stupid, i have the facts but i still make the wrong choice. so i am well aware that there are people who will go to their graves being hateful, violent, and racist. there is no changing them whatsoever. and i have met some of those people and they are very dangerous people and they are unchangeable. most of them are dangerous, i won't say all of them are, but you know, they are just so skewed, no amount of facts or anything is going to change their belief. brian: do you have a family? mr. davis: i have a wife, yes. brian: you have children? mr. davis: not of my own. i have stepchildren, but they are grown. brian: where do you live now? mr. davis: i live in silver spring, maryland. brian: how much of your time is spent on this versus your jazz, piano work? mr. davis: oh, rock and roll, jazz, blues, country -- i would say between 50/50, 60/40. brian: what's happened with all the publicity you've gotten?

what impact has that had on you? mr. davis: it's interesting because i'd been doing this for 30 years and when i first started doing this, people thought, you know, “you're crazy,” and you know, i was called a kook and this, that, and the other, and i am going to get myself killed and even some people began shunning me. today -- brian: black folks or white folks? mr. davis: both. both. you know, because i've gone off my rock or something. today, some of these same people are calling me up saying, “daryl, what do we do? you know these people, what do we do?” because you know racism has become so emboldened today. now, people are beginning to take notice of it whereby before, either they were in denial or living in their little bubble, you know, it was not affecting them. but now, it's out there in your face and now, they don't know what to do.

so they go to somebody who has been you know, embedded with it for a while. brian: president trump calls you up and says, “come to oval office,” you get an hour with him, what would you start telling him about this issue and what would you like just to tell him from what you've seen over the last couple of years in the political world? mr. davis: i would absolutely go and i would be very happy to sit down with president trump and go over this and i would ask him to give me a position, paid or unpaid, to help resolve many of the racial issues in this country. and personally, you know, i believe president trump -- this is my belief -- is one of the best things that has happened to this country because all of the good stuff is now coming up to the surface. i am not saying that was his plan or his design, but as a result of his presidency, all of this stuff is coming up where before, there was a taboo on talking about racism.

“oh, we are not going to talk about that. you know put it under the carpet. it's not politically correct.” now, we are having to address it. it's in our face. but i have always seen it, so you know, it was never hidden from me. but people are going about it the wrong way to resolve it. people are talking about each other or they're talking at each other. i sit down and talk with each other and that's what results in my getting these kinds of things. and i never set out to convert anybody. i set out to listen to them explaining their points of view, what they fear, what they think and then i am able to share mine, and that is impetus for them to think and oftentimes, they reconsider that ideology which is how i get these. brian: how much racism do you see in your professional life when you're out there playing that piano? mr. davis: i see it from time to time. brian: how? what do you see? mr. davis: there have been times, well, for example, the moose lodge. the moose lodge was a very racist organization in this

country. their bylaws forbid black people to be in the moose lodge, so i was performing with a band one time and i wasn't allowed to come in. they told the band that they had to bring a white piano player and the band leader said, “no, where we go, daryl goes.” and so, the moose lodge rented an outside facility just to have this band so i could play, ok? now, today, of course the moose lodge is integrated. a black person was brought by a white member to be a guest and they refused entrance, so the black person sued the moose lodge in federal court and the federal judge said, “if you don't change that law, i will shut down every moose lodge in the country.” so that changed it. brian: let me ask you this though, if you are a black person and the moose lodge doesn't -- you know, they had the rules that no black people are allowed. why would you even want to go there? why would you want to change it? why would you want to be involved with people that would accept that kind of thing in their bylaws? mr. davis: i'm not -- you know, the moose lodge doesn't make me

or break me. i am there to play music and i know a lot of moose -- brian: i don't mean you, i am talking about the fellow that sued them. why would he even care about being a part of the moose lodge being a member? mr. davis: because this is our country, you know, and we all should be treated equally. that's the whole thing with the flag and the pledge of allegiance, you know, “one nation indivisible under god with liberty and justice for all.” no, it's not liberty and justice for all. so you know, our society is going to be one of two things. it's going to be what we make it or it's going to be what we let it become and i'd rather make it equitable for everybody. brian: you had a conversation from “accidental courtesy” with a guy named, i don't know how to pronounce it, jeff schoep. mr. davis: schoep. brian: schoep. mr. davis: i'm sorry, schoep. he pronounces it as scoop. brian: scoop, yes. a nationalist socialist movement commander, i just want to go back to the way we started on music and listen to this -- a

little bit of the conversation. [video starts] mr. schoep: you, men and women that are here today, if we are going to take back this nation, we have to stand in solidarity. white power. >> white power. mr. davis: what kind of music do you like, jeff? mr. schoep: all kinds of music. mr. davis: yeah. mr. schoep: rock, hardcore, oi, rac, rock against communism -- mr. davis: and do you realize that rock was invented by black musicians? mr. schoep: oh we're not going to go there -- mr. davis: oh yes, we are. yes, we are. yes, my brother, we are going there. well, who invented rock then? mr. schoep: elvis presley. mr. davis: you know you're not being serious, right? [video ends] brian: what was that conversation like? mr. davis: very cordial, very good. you know, we exchanged cell numbers and you know, jeff is a hardcore racist and supremacist. brian: still? mr. davis: yes. brian: why does he think that the rock and roll music started with elvis presley? did you ever through to that? mr. davis: he knows where rock started but he cannot bring

himself to admit that he likes something that was invented by black people, but however, if -- had you continued that clip, because i pointed out to him that chuck berry invented rock and roll and elvis presley popularized it, all right, and then -- and i came down on him for not accepting black inventions, and then he said that he likes peanut butter and black people invented peanut butter, and i said, who was it? and then he named george washington carver. brian: you have a lot of those paraphernalia. how many of these robes do you have at home? mr. davis: i don't keep them all at home. i only keep a couple at home. i keep a lot of them locked up offsite, but i would guess, you know, i got three recently and i would guess maybe i have between 42 or 44. brian: and how do you get them? i mean, is that -- is a decision made that you're going to like each other and the guys says, “i'm getting out of the klan and

i'll give it to you.” mr. davis: no, actually, the first time i got one, the guy was going to get rid of it. he put it in a trash bag and was going to throw it in a dumpster or something and i said, “no, no, no. let me have it.” he goes, “why would want it?” i said, “you know, i just want it.” i didn't know why i wanted it, but i wanted it. and so i got it that way and then, others, when they decided to leave, i said, “you know, what are going to do with your stuff?” and they're like, you know, “i don't know. i'll just get rid of it.” and i said, well, you know, “could i have it?” and they would give it to me. and now, i got people who know you know, klan people who have heard about me or you know, whatever, they read articles, seen me on tv and they know i have these robes and then when they decide to leave or they've met me, they say, you know, “would you like my robe?” brian: do you get invited to speak? mr. davis: i have. i have -- i mean, at a klan meeting or rally. brian: i'm talking about to the general public? mr. davis: oh, yes. i do a lot of speaking all over the country and abroad. brian: what's been the impact of this documentary on netflix, “accidental courtesy?”

mr. davis: what's been the impact on the country or netflix? brian: on you. mr. davis: well, i think it has increased speaking opportunities because, you know, people now are very concerned and need to address this issue that they're confronted with in our country especially since, you know, charlottesville. brian: so if somebody wants to hear you play the piano, how do they find out where to go? mr. davis: well, they go to my website, daryldavis.com -- daryldavis.com -- and there, they can find my schedule, my performance schedule as well as my speaking schedule or appearances on media. brian: you're going to write another book? mr. davis: i am updating the old book, klan-destine relationships, because like i said, the book came out in the late 1990's, and many things have happened since then. we've had a black president, we've had an increase in immigration both legal and illegal, and all of that has fueled, you know, the white

right of that mentality, so i want to update the book, talk about people who were in there, some have passed, some are still around, update people on that as well as tell new stories. brian: of all the publicity you've had over the years, which one got you the most visibility and the most reaction? mr. davis: you know, that's really hard to say because i've had a lot of great ones and there are some that are still in the can. for example, there's a natgeo thing that is going to be showing pretty soon with morgan freeman who interviewed me, and that's sure to generate a lot of publicity. some more on cnn and i am sure c-span with brian lamb would generate a lot of publicity. brian: i doubt it. anyway, daryl davis, we're out of time, but we're going to leave this -- just by showing 30 seconds of you playing the 88's. mr. davis: ok. ♪ [captions copyright national

cable satellite corp. 2023] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] announcer: all q&a programs are available on our website or as a podcast at c-span.org.