♪ host: good morning, it is monday, december 18, 2023.

the senate is back in session as talks continue on border security and immigration bill that could unlock billions of dollars in aid to ukraine. we will focus on the issue of immigration in this first hour. if you are an immigrant to this country whether through legal or undocumented channels, we want to hear your story. phone line split differently today. if you are a legal immigrant in less than a year, it is 202-748-8000. if you are a legal immigrant in for one to 10 years, 202-748-8001. if you've been in the country over 10 years, 202-748-8002. if you are in undocumented immigrant, 202-748-8003. that's also the number where you can send us a text. if you do, tell us your name and where you come from. you can also find us on

facebook. a good monday morning to you. start calling and now, giving you a sense of the universe of people we are looking to hear from. it's about 47 million people who live in this country but were born in a different country. that's about 14.1 percent of u.s. population, 38.5 million of them are legal immigrants. about 10.5 million are unauthorized illegal immigrants to this country. we want to hear your immigration story. giving you a chance to tell that story in the first hour of the washington journal. the former first lady, melania trump was at a naturalization ceremony of the national park are had pulled -- told her immigration story. [video clip] >> with the goal of securing a

work visa i began visiting consulates and embassies and compiling the required records of my work experience. quickly my life turned into a labyrinth of organizing paperwork. back then, of technology didn't really exist to the extent it does today. patience and perseverance became my constant companions. i navigated through this intricate web which i'm sure you can all relate to. my dream of becoming a citizen pushed me to meticulously gather every piece of information required insuring that no detail was overlooked.

my personal experience of traversing the challenges of the immigration process opened my eyes to the harsh reality people face, including you who tried to become u.s. citizens. and then of course, there are nuances of understanding the united states immigration law and the complex legal language contained therein. i was very devoted, but i was certainly not an attorney and eventually it became critical for me to retain counsel. i was fortunate to do so is ultimately my journey was streamlined and brought me over the finish line as a naturalized citizen. challenges were numerous.

the rewards were well worth the effort. host: that was on friday standing before the founding documents of this country and the great hall of the national park telling her immigration story. we want you to tell your immigration story. about 47 million people live in this country that were born in a different country and we want to hear your immigration story whether it was a legal story or an undocumented illegal story. if you've been in the country for less than a year, 202-748-8000. if you've been in this country one to 10 years, 202-748-8001. if you've been in this country for more than 10 years, 202-748-8002. that special line for undocumented immigrants, 202-748-8003. you can also send us a text as well at 202-748-8003. having this conversation as negotiations continue over a

border and immigration field that could unlock new spending for ukraine. this is the story in the wall street journal. senate negotiators failed to reach a deal on a framework for border security measures that republicans have demanded as a condition for passing funding for ukraine. further slimming a chance of a vote before christmas. underscoring the difficulty in those talks even after the biden administration signaled it was prepared to make significant concessions on immigration policy. the lead paragraph in the stories, it was a topic of conversation yesterday on the sunday shows. this is lindsey graham on this. [video clip] >> what's the latest? do you think there will be a deal before the new year? >> i think this will go into

next year. i've been talking to people at the table. the white house got engaged five days ago. they sent over a supplemental with border security provisions that did nothing to change policy. we've been talking to them since september. they finally set the table. the bottom line is we feel like we are being jammed, we are not anywhere close to a deal. let me tell you why it is important to get a good security deal. with congressman castro said was pretty offensive. according to the fbi director last week he's never seen more threats to the homeland than he does today. wherever he looks he sees blinking lights, of the border has been obliterated since january 21 until now. we've had 6 million people, today. there are more scheduled this year alone. the policy choices of the biden administration has made the

border a dangerous place to come to. america is under threat according to the fbi director since october 7. jihadist groups want to attack us because we are helping israel. i've never been more worried about a 911 then i have now and our border has been obliterated and we won't give in on some band-aid fix. host: we will show you more about this ongoing debate about border security, immigration package that the white house and republicans are working on. the expectation is it won't come together for the christmas break. in this first hour we simply want to hear from immigrants to this country legal or otherwise. we want to hear your story. 202-748-8001 if you've been in this country -- we will let you look at them on the screen. we hear from martha out of frederick, maryland.

has been in this country for 10 plus years. what country did you come from. caller: i came from bangladesh. host: what was that process like, how long did it take? caller: my parents came here through the visa that was available to them, we were selected and came here about 20 years ago. the process was much smoother back then. but recently i got married in bangladesh and to bring my wife here it is taking a painful amount of time, almost two years now and they are saying it could take another year or so. host: why is it taking so long? caller: the processing time, very hard to get any relations even if you reach out to your senator or congressman, it's

very difficult to get any reasonable explanation. caller: what is your expectation of when this will finally happen? caller: it is very unpredictable. it could take five years or so. it could take upwards of two to three years. so it's very unpredictable and that gets us more frustrated through these years. >> where is your partner during this time? caller: she is in bangladesh. host: and it's just a matter of waiting? caller: exactly. waiting to get the paperwork. we submit the paperwork on time but that's the frustrating part. i could just brought her over here but going through the legal

process, it is just so time-consuming and very painful. host: the illegal route, would you know where to start if that was something you wanted to do? caller: yes. i would have to ask people who would've gone through that. that's all unreliable. not everyone can make it through. host: but you know people who have come over illegally. caller: i personally do not. i have folks living in new york who also see people coming to the border and eventually coming to new york looking for jobs themselves. you can reach out to those people and try to get them on how that process works. host: thank you for sharing your story, appreciate the call. let's go to new york, this is

michelle. . caller: good morning. the reason i am calling is i hear people talking a lot about immigrants coming into the country. what i don't understand, many people don't understand the reason people want to come here is because of what happens in central america during the cold war and after the cold war. the u.s. government supported a bunch who were stealing money, killing people who didn't do anything for those countries. they didn't know anything because they were supporting the u.s.. after the cold war, the u.s. did

not do anything for central america. this is what happened. people don't come here because they won't leave their countries. because of what happened during the cold war and after the cold war, now there is nothing in central america, this is why people are coming here. because of what the united states did to central america during the cold war and after the cold war. host: before you go did you happen to hear the former president donald trump, his comments on immigrants? i think we lost him. this was saturday, the former president donald trump talking about the border and immigrants to the country. [video clip] >> we have a lot of work to do. i think the real number is 15, 16 one million people, when they

do that, we have a lot of work to do. they are poisoning the blood of our country. that's what they've done. mental institutions and prisons all over the world, not just in south america or three or four countries we think about but all over the world they are coming into our country from africa, from asia and all over the world , nobody is even looking at them. they just come in. the crime is going to be tremendous. terrorism is going to be and we built a tremendous piece of the wall and we will build more. the election was rigged and we didn't do it. it was all built and ready to be hoisted up, they exact wall the border patrol were incredible. brandon, jud, that is exactly what they designed, they have the anti-bars, everything. do you know what they did? they sold it for five cents on

the dollar. all of that stuff is a very sad thing. host: former president trump over the weekend on the campaign trail. we want to hear from immigrants only, whether you are in this country legally or undocumented. we want to hear your immigration story. how long did it take, when did you come? if you've been in this country less than a year, 202-748-8000. if you've been in this country one to 10 years, 202-748-8001. if you've been in this country over 10 years, 202-748-8002. if you are undocumented, a special line for you, 202-748-8003. having this conversation as immigration and border security is one of the top issues on voters minds right now heading into the 2024 election. a fox news poll earlier this month, a five percent of

registered u.s. voters say the economy is the most important issue. immigration and border security, 19% of americans, that's the most important issue. 10% saying gun rights, 8% saying voting rights and election integrity. 7% saying climate change. you can see it there, that is from jennifer harpers column. hearing your immigration stories. been in this country 10 plus years, good morning. caller: good morning c-span. i came to this country when i was 23.5 as part of a cultural exchange program and now i am 65. when i first came here, ronald reagan was president. three years after my arrival

here i became a lawyer. host: what country did you come from? caller: i came from a country called tunisia. so i came here, i went to law school, i finished law school when i was 29. english is my third language. so i've been a lawyer for 30 years. i just hit 34 years this past october. so i've been a lawyer, unfortunately, the hospital, i just had surgery. the reason i want to call, i wanted to share this story with

people, i want to let them know it's very important they follow the rule of law. very important to be honest. don't say you can get away with things, you don't. follow, be honest and respect others. my second thought would be for people like former president trump who apparently think anybody who's coming from a foreign country that's not european poses a problem for this country. i eventually worked and finished law school. and were used by law school students. right now i practice -- and estate planning.

in any event, i study immigration now. host: do you think the immigration process is working, do you think it is too easy, too hard to get in? caller: if you follow the rules, immigration process by its nature is painful. it's very hard. you give up your family. my parents, my siblings, cousins were left behind. adjuster status and roll back. i see your mouth moving but i can hear you. host: go ahead and finish your thought. caller: the process just takes a long.

i tell people that's how it is. there's millions of people in line. it's ok. operate within the framework of the law. just follow the law. don't break the law. don't go and get married and try to commit marriage fraud. give it your best shot. you have the opportunity. nobody wants people who come here and lie and try to play games. host: thanks for the call from louisiana. this is mohammed in annandale, virginia. where did you come from? caller: from sierra leone. host: what was the process like for you, how long have you been here? caller: i've been here for 20

years now. the time i got here there was a war in my country and we moved to guinea and i was there for five years before moving to the united states. through that time in 99 i went through an immigration interview through ins. and i went through the interview, when through the process, so during that time i was supposed to get to the country in 2000 but there was someone in my family that was sick so that gave us some -- to get us into the country and we got in 2005 to chicago. i was in chicago since 2012.

-- until 2012. host: what is an immigration interview like? what are they looking to ask you? caller: very -- they were looking at the reason why left sierra leone. i explained to them it's because of the war, they check our background to know if we are giving the right -- working with the ins, some from liberia. so they can identify the actual people that came from sierra leone. host: there's a lot of countries closer to sierra leone. why america? caller: during that time it was not not only america.

my family was just fortunate to come to america but there are countries taking refugees like australia, sweden, canada. but my family was fortunate to get a sponsorship from the united states. host: who sponsored you? caller: it was an episcopal church. host: thank you for the call. eric in maryland, good morning. what country did you come from? caller: good morning. i came from cameroon. i came to study here and complete a phd. host: how long did it take you to become a citizen of this

country? caller: it took me approximately five years to become a citizen. there's a lot of debate on immigration and i have a quick point i want to make. i understand both sides, republican and democrat. what is a little bit sad is i think both sides of gone too far because you have those who believe you just have to open the border and let everybody come in and you have those on the right saying poisoning the blood of america. when i see construction it's all the hispanic doing construction. the ones working hard, all of them are immigrants.

this country is what it is because of immigration. for the europeans immigrated here a long time ago, they have to be humble and understand that the native americans were here before everybody got here. i think if both sides are ready to be reasonable, we can just -- we can just let anybody in but at the same time we can also find a solution. host: what is a reasonable solution? caller: so for me a reasonable solution, i already agree with the democrats when they say a wall cannot help. i go to the white house, they have a wall. they've made the barrier higher. you don't allow anybody to come

to your own house, you want to know who's coming to your home. right now america we have a lot of enemies. i am a proud american. we have people who want to destroy us. if i'm a terrorist country and i know i can go through mexico and get in i won't do it? my fear right now is i think we already have some bad people so some reasonable way to secure the border, but also with the same token we cannot completely disengage from our international agreement. asylum is a right, people have the right to ask for asylum. we have to compromise and go from there. host: what do you do and why do you often visit the white house? caller: i'm actually law

enforcement so i work in downtown washington dc so i am there all the time. it is where i have my house. >> are you mpd or security? caller: no i am actually in the federal government. i won't say the agency i work for but i work for the federal government. host: kurt is next out of oklahoma. what country did you emigrate from? caller: jamaica. good morning. my wife lived here and i was living here 2008, i got removed in 2015 and i was granted permission over a year.

a year and some months now. host: when you say you were removed. you were removed from america? caller: yes i was deported. i came here legal. there were some issues and they took away my green card and then i spent six years back in jamaica and filed for grand permission and they gave me permission. host: why did they take away your green card and how were you able to get permission to come back? caller: some technicalities. i missed an interview and they terminate because i missed that interview so i was fighting deportation and i was in custody for like three years. .

it breaks my heart when people don't understand the whole process. dates not easy. the fact that on both sides, congress really have the authority to make it better but it has become a political football so no issues really solving. people complaining the border is wide open and they are mistaken and that. for example, when it comes down to deportation i'll give you the example, december here you have two flights going to jamaica with people deported. and it happened to every country.

dominica, haiti, all over the caribbean and all over the world. when i was in texas, there were like 3000 people facing deportation, the different detention center was like 2000 was female. it's horrible. this thing has to be sorted out. thank god i am back, it is a nice country. have a lot of opportunity. i came back and within five days

, i came back may 5 and the 10th of may i have a job as an engineer. for all the people who said there's no jobs and all of that. and i'm black. i work in a nice job, a good pay. host: people don't understand how hard the process is. what's one thing that would help people understand how hard this process is. host: if they just read -- caller: if they just read and stop listening to the talking points from their favorite abundance on the news and just read. the national immigration act, they will learn a lot. people think that for example the president has so much weight over immigration and that's not true. we operate in the immigration

service operates under a few laws. they are still using from 1962 immigration act to deport people . the president can help you, take a place like oklahoma and texas, the president could be in your pocket if i send immigration judge want to remove you, there is nothing that can stop them. the court, that's it. how much people get deported out of oklahoma or the southern region of the united states, they would be amazed. the president has no way.

it's ice and immigration court. have a good day. host: thank you for sharing your story from oklahoma. more on the debate happening now in these negotiations between senate republicans on the white house causing concern among some immigrant advocacy groups including congressional hispanic caucus saying the concessions the white house is making when it comes to ongoing negotiations against ukraine funding bill with concessions on immigration and border security have gone too far. [video clip] >> we are here to call on president biden and majority leader chuck schumer to reject the immigration and border proposal at the hands of republicans in the ongoing negotiations around the supplemental aid package.

republicans continue to hold funding for america's allies hostage at the expense of migrants and to pass trump era border policies. republicans are pitting vulnerable groups against each other to strong arm policies that will exacerbate chaos at the center border. we are urging the biden administration to say no. do not take the bait. we are calling on our colleagues to hold the line, to hold the line, truthfully the white house and i said this, should not put border policy together with foreign aid and that the two should be separated out. i think this will set a dangerous precedent, which is why we are standing here today and this is exactly what republicans want. they want to be able to get this

marrow is it any time we vote on foreign aid, they will ask for more and more. the concern about the report, the most recent reports we are hearing now of these trump era immigration policies possibly becoming permanent laws. in exchange for temporary funding. negotiations are taking place without a single latino senator at the table, without a single consultation or engagement with our lawmakers and that is -- unacceptable. host: the congresswoman last wednesday. we are asking viewers for your

immigration story. whether you came here legally or as an undocumented immigrant. we want to hear stories of that process. phone lines if you've been in the country less than a year, any specialized cash a special line if you are undocumented this is glenn out of apex, north carolina. what country did you come from? caller: i came from the ivory coast and i've been in this country since 1986. host: what was the process like? caller: i came in as a student and i worked my way and got married and stayed in the country. now i am an i.t. program manager. a few points i want to raise in here is what i think trump over the weekend was saying the

foreigner trying to poison the blood of american. i think what was missing there from the press as always taking overboard was he was saying it's not acceptable to have folks walking straight crossing the border to be in the country. no other country can sustain this kind of invasion. i think that trump is just speaking his mind. no other country can come in, across the river and you are in the u.s.. it's all right. that's what i wanted to bring up. you come to the u.s., you go through the normal process and do the right thing. i don't think any country can

sustain the type of invasion that's happening. it's terrible. and disgusting. i watch the news and i look at people coming from 180 countries and just walking through. baby, women, men, just coming to the country like there's nothing to ask, going to new york, going to chicago. it is unbelievable and very disturbing. host: why do you use that term invasion? caller: it's an invasion because when you have no border people walk in, it's an invasion. because the government does not do anything. those folks over there, texas they are trying their best, doing their best to control it. but folks coming and just cross the border.

so it is an invasion. host: are you an immigrant who is a donald trump supporter? caller: mi what? host: are you a donald trump supporter, will you vote for him and 2024 if he gets the nomination? caller: i support him and i think he's doing good for the country and i think the press and people who understand american politics is for the american people. the press hate him because he tells the truth. nobody right now can do that compared to what is happening 3000 years ago and what happened now. you have the war in europe. the economy, they say it's

working but i don't think it is working. host: did you vote for donald trump in 2020 2016? caller: i voted for him. i will vote for him and 2024. i think he is the best candidate and all the investigation and stuff is just a way of keeping them off the ballot. he's been the greatest president in my lifetime. host: this is paul out of florida, good morning. what country did you come from. caller: it's been about 28 years since i've been in this country. i came through migration. i had a parent that migrated to this country and he sent for me and i've been here ever since. host: what country did he come from?

caller: barbados. i just have to comment the previous caller is what's wrong -- of the endemic wrong of what's going on in this country stating that a person like donald trump is a great president and the republican party as a whole is a great party. it seems every election cycle there is always some bogeyman or cultural war that's being waged against people of different ideologies and cultures and beliefs. it is so sad to see that. you have people who are immigrants, who come from countries -- donald trump has set himself that are countries

that he wouldn't dare have these people come to the country. it seems republicans are also feeding into that. host: you said if you can -- he said if you can just walk across the border it's an invasion. caller: listen to the rhetoric. at one point the border was part of mexico. it's a couple thousand miles long. how can it be an invasion. there -- they are desperate people seeking to make their lives better. i know plenty of people who are living in the shadows of being noncitizens in this country.

undocumented yes. and just the idea that most of these people are calling in and supporting the republicans in donald trump with the type of rhetoric that this country wasn't even built on. this country was built on at one point some kind of tolerance and now that's out the window. you can go back a couple of years and you saw when there was a large immigration migration to the european countries. it wasn't very popular obviously , but these are people who have assimilated into the culture and i assume in some areas are thriving. host: do you think immigrants do a good job of assimilating into culture today? caller: of course they do. i myself am an immigrant.

i think of assimilated into the culture quite nicely. i do think immigrants have a huge part to play in what is so great about this country. on former law enforcement. i've been here around 28 years now. i see the good, i do not see the bad. host: do you think immigrants did a better job of simulating -- of assimilating 28 years ago than today? caller: the backlash has really come within the last eight years. since we had the trump administration and the republicans wholeheartedly bow

down to the rhetoric of a person like donald trump. the party has really lost its footing. dave lost that northern star. yes, immigrants are a vital and integral part of this country. we are all immigrants from somewhere. we are all immigrants. host: that's the call from florida. 202-748-8000 if you are an immigrant to this country and have been in for less than one year. 202-748-8001 if you have been in this country from one to 10 years. 202-748-8002 if you are an immigrant to this country and have been here more than 10 years. 202-748-8003 holding that line aside for folks were undocumented and in this

country. just talking to immigrants in the first hour of washington journal, hearing your stories today. this is seated in upper marlboro, maryland. caller: good morning. i come from india and i came to this country legally and i also had the honor of serving in the united states military and government for over 20 years so i feel very strongly about the freedom that we enjoy in this country. it is like no other. but i also support the republicans this time around further negotiations going on on the border package. i do not support illegal immigration. and the reason i am saying that is because it is not fair for people who want to come here legally and do the right thing

versus letting these folks come across the border and turning our communities right at the border. i will not vote for donald trump, i do not vote for him. i will vote for president biden again because he has done a great job but i feel president biden should take a moderate approach, a middle ground in this border issue. nikki haley's family are immigrants and she's running for president of the united states. what a wonderful example that is. and the thing is these illegal immigrants have come across the border using up our resources, what i don't understand is why are the mayor of the city's using it to get the work done. give them food and a place to stay but use them, let them clean up the cities and the trash.

why isn't that happening like desantis did in florida. we are all immigrants but when immigrants came before the civil war they went to work. and another thing is they have these palestinian students who think they can come here and demonstrate and push anti-semitism, freedom of speech only applies to u.s. citizens. it does not apply to international students, it does not apply to people who can come here and disrupt the peace. that's my take, thank you. host: he mentioned nikki haley. it's on the recent death when she was asked about former president trump, comments on potential bands this is what she had to say. [video clip] >> i don't think you have a

straight up muslim ban as you look at the countries with terrorist activity want to hurt americans. you can ban those people from those countries. which countries are a threat to us. what worries me the most are those that came from iran, yemen, lebanon. those are areas where they say death to america, that's where you want to be careful. it's not about a religion, it's the fact certain countries are dangerous and threats to us. the president has one job, to keep americans safe. we have to make sure we have good national security in that process. where the terrorist threats are and how we will deal with it and the biggest threat and the biggest threat may we have right now is communist china but you have to look at what iran and russia are doing as well. that's why we have to focus on things like cyber, on artificial intelligence, not just the regular things we are focused on. [applause]

>> look what's happened in europe, you have more anti-semitism in germany than at any time since adolf hitler. why? because they imported mass numbers of people who reject their culture. europe is committing suicide with mass migration and it's illegal and legal, nikki haley the other day said there should be no limits on legal immigration and that corporate ceo -- >> that's not true. >> there need to be limits on immigration and we should not be importing people from cultures that are hostile. for example i said with gaza you had some of the squad wanting to import 300,000 people from the gaza strip. i said no. we are not taking them because of the anti-semitism and they reject american culture. we cannot let the united states be like europe. host: nikki haley and ron desantis from that republican primary debate.

we have been asking for your immigration stories, about 47 million people in this country who were born in a different country, about 36.5 million of them legal immigrants in this country. 10.5 million illegal immigrants. asking for your immigration stories. this is ursula. good morning. what country did you come from? caller: good morning, i came from germany during the eisenhower presidency. host: why did you come back then? caller: mine was military connected. i married a military fellow in berlin. we married and came to the states. and have been living here off and on through our military career and ended up here in

spring lake, north carolina. this country has been great, especially back in the late 50's and 60's. now i am watching all of this rhetoric from trump and it scares the hell out of me, i am sorry to say that. we don't want to go into the german history again so i'm sure the listeners know what it was, i don't like this anti-semitism and people -- i'm shocked to death to see the demonstrations from young people that do not know about the history and for trump to go out there and talk like he does, that brings back memories because i was born and raised during world war ii. it was horrible, i do not want

any conflict, especially right now overseas. the ukraine dilemma with russia. who wants to start this over? i'm sure there's many people out there that don't want to go through this in europe. like i said, i love this country. i feel like i am an american. i have been since 1963. it scares me. i am too old to listen to this garbage, especially from trump. i cannot believe that man. and people follow him, that is another thing i don't understand, they follow him. so bless us all and i hope we get through this and have the right mind to vote right.

bless his heart, biden. i don't know if he is the answer, but like i said, it is terrible what we are going through here. host: in the time you've been in this country, who do you think has been the best president that you've seen? caller: i like kennedy of course. eisenhower, he was the man. kennedy and reagan. that's the only ones i can think that were pretty decent. kennedy went through a lot with cuba and reagan, look what the russians -- people talk about the russians, they have played footsie with us for the last 80 years. it's all been taken in stride.

the berlin wall and cuba, what we went through over the years and we came out of it. this is not fun anymore. there's too much more involved than we know. they would be total destruction. host: the call from spring lake, north carolina. time for one or two more calls as we hear your immigration story. annette in maryland. what country did you come from? caller: jamaica. host: when did you, and what was that process like? caller: i came during the time of reagan. i got my papers through amnesty actually. host: what does that mean? caller: back in the days of reagan they had amnesty and people who were illegal got

their green cards. host: so you came in illegally originally? caller: from canada. i am a canadian citizen. host: where did you cross and what was that like? caller: i crossed legally the american and canadian border but came here and decided i liked america. it was a melting pot. it had so many different races and that is what makes america so great. it's a bunch of races that got together and we make it work. host: are we making it work well right now? caller: no we are not. unfortunately not. i am caribbean, we have africans, caribbean's and all that. i heard about donald trump's speech about different cultures, asian, african, soiling the blood of america. host: poisoning the blood i

believe was the quote. caller: poisoning the blood of america. that speech that he gave. host: what are your thoughts on that? caller: my thought is that is so outrageous and there was this guy from the ivory coast that called and he said he would vote for donald trump and has been voting for donald trump i guess two or three times in a row. my thinking is i don't understand how these people can say they will vote for donald trump when clearly donald trump is not for us. you may be republican in the daylight and they like you but after dark, the republicans, donald trump's party, whoever it is in donald trump's party when they catch you after dark, you are mincemeat, you are no good.

they don't look at you as he is republican, you are black, mexican, as far as they are concerned. host: one more call from stephen in florida. good morning. caller: a comment to make. i agree with donald trump 100%. he married two immigrants. now we have more trump's and that's the end of it. host: what country did you come from? are you still with us stephen? we lost stephen. stephen our last caller in this first segment of the washington journal. plenty more to talk about this morning. up next we will be joined and talk about a new report on the state of small business in this country and later we will be joined by the economic policy institute elise gould to discuss

their new report on paid sick leave. we will be right back. ♪ >> traveling over the holidays? make c-span bookshelf podcast feed part of your holidays. featuring nonfiction books in one place. c-span bookshelf features multiple episodes of critically acclaimed authors discussing history, biography, current events and culture from our signature programs about books. listen to c-span's bookshelf podcast feed this holiday season. you can find it on our free mobile video app or wherever you get your podcast and on our website, c-span.org/podcast. >> c-span's studentcam documentary competition is back celebrating 20 years with this

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watch our encore presentation of books that shaped america weeknights at nine p.m. eastern on c-span or go to c-span.org/ books that shaped america to view the series and learn more about these book features -- books featured. >> "washington journal" continues. host: a conversation and small business in the united states. we have the vice president of small business policy the chamber of commerce. remind viewers with the definition of a small business is and how big can a company be and still be considered a small business? guest: a lot of times i think of it from a norman rockwell perspective. when you see one of those pictures of two or three people at a storefront, that's a traditional small business. we have government definitions of washington, d.c. and small business administration that sets the definitions. generally speaking, it's any

business under 500 employees. that's a definition we use at the u.s. chamber of commerce. host: how many small businesses are there in the united states now and how many were created in 2023 and we know how many went out of business? guest: great questions. there are over 33 million small businesses in the united states. the vast majority of them, over 83% are non-employers, they are self-employed. that makes up the greatest amount of small businesses and the rest are a wide variety of businesses. the good news is, in the last three years, we were at the gold, silver and bronze level of bronze business startups and struck rope has been pretty flat but since performance after the start of the pandemic, startups have shot up. we see roughly about half a million new businesses that

prior to the pandemic, could start up in any given year. host: what's your explanation for that? guest: there are two reasons for the uptick in entrepreneurship. one is that stimulus provided by the federal government. there is so many americans that want to be their own bosses. they want to give up a 40 hour week jazz workweek and work 60 or 70 or 80 hours. it sounds a little crazy but we will hear from small business owners in a little bit and this idea of having your own venture, working twice as hard and working twice as many hours but being your own boss is part of the american dream. that stimulus that provided americans with money allowed many people to make that leap. they went into entrepreneurship. what i like to talk about is that small businesses saw

profits. if you can't explain the problem you're solving, maybe you should rethink whether or not you should be a small business owner. in april of 2020, there were never as many problems that had to be solved very quickly at that point in time. that's the reason i like to talk about the uptick in entrepreneurship. the data bear that out. food delivery, package delivery, logistics, warehousing, all shut up because how many packages can fedex and ups delivered? it couldn't deliver everything that people needed when they were forced to stay at home. incomes the entrepreneurs filling the void of transportation logistics and warehousing. after that first year, the trend of transportation logistics and delivery started to level out. we see an increase in online

business activity and that's where a lot of those new entrepreneurs are prospering now. people who sell on at sea, yes. host: you mentioned small business owners to let me give the phone numbers. (202) 748-8002 for small business owners. a good time to ask your question to tom sullivan. if you have a small business, it's ok to call in and eastern or central time zones, (202) 748-8000 mountain or pacific time zones, (202) 748-8001, sullivan with us for the next 40 minutes or so. what to small business owners say is the biggest challenge they face in this economy now? guest: he gives me an opportunity to explain what i do every day. i work at the u.s. chamber of commerce. we have a large -- we are the largest small business advocacy

in the world. we have partnership with about 1600 state and local chambers of commerce and 500 trade associations. all of that membership constitutes who we advocate for before congress on the white house and ultimately if we are not successful, then we deal with small enterprise in the courts. most members are small businesses and how do we take the pulse of 3 million businesses. we actually survey them with their partners. when you ask our small business is doing now and what is the biggest challenge, we look to our quarterly index. the metlife in u.s. timber, small business impacts that index we just released last week for q4 actually says the business hurdle is still inflation. we are talking about eight consecutive quarters that inflation has been the top concern.

below that is workforce challenges. i'm not sure if you noticed but for every 100 jobs, their only 77 employees looking for jobs. we have a workforce crisis that is second to inflation which has been the top concern for two years. host: the biden administration will point to inflation coming down. in recent months, they will point to job creation every month for the past several months or longer. why is there a confidence issue among small businesses right now? guest: you see this disconnect sometimes between what we say in washington dc and what is happening out in the rest of the country which is one of the special things about your show here. we get to hear from all over the country. that disconnect is certainly evident in how folks are thinking about inflation. technically, inflation maybe going down but small business

owners still are not seeing that going down and the costs it takes for them to operate. although they are bullish about 2024 and optimistic about revenues, they are a little bit scared the revenues will not outpace inflation. that means less profits, less investment back into their business to grow their businesses and help their communities. that's why our index dipped down a little bit in q4 compared to q3. host: we will go through that index more but we have calls already. from ocean city, new jersey, good morning. caller: can you hear me? hello? host: yes. caller: i run three very small businesses but also run a charity that helps small businesses. i think the government at all levels should give more help to the small corner grocery store, the small store in the inner cities in the rural areas.

they are having a lot of trouble. we should help them. i think that should be the first priority. host: help how? caller: when my charity does we help them get customers. they will give me like 2000 menus and i will walk around philadelphia and passed them out to get them new customers. that's the first thing. help them get new customers, lower the fees they are paying, license fees but it's mainly new customers. host: how do you make money with your job? caller: that's what my charity does. i pass out literature for small businesses for free. guest: thank you. thank you for being an entrepreneur and the greatest part of my job really is lobbying for small businesses every day and is getting to people like you and you've got

three full-time gig going and i also have a charity. you're not alone. the vast majority of small business owners want to give back. just hearing how you are actually filling in where there is help that is needed makes my heart full. my heart is full nuts is because as the holiday season but because i hear from you that you are giving back in a way that makes a difference in your community and that's part of what makes american small businesses so special so thank you for calling in. host: andrew in virginia beach, you are next. caller: yeah, my question, i'm a small business owner and before covid hit, we are living paycheck to paycheck and now that there is idle money for everybody and now things are back to normal but we are still in the paycheck-to-paycheck but now we've got this big lump payment.

i think it's hard for the small businesses that are living paycheck-to-paycheck. host: what kind of small business do you have? caller: an indoor place for kids, family entertainment center. host: do you mind putting numbers to what you're talking about, approximate numbers? are we talking six-figure loans or more? caller: yeah, i've got a $700,000 loan and they just had a scale and you can slide what you need and nobody knew what they needed so it was tempting just to slide it on over and get the money. you use the money to fix the place up and do some things you probably would've never been able to afford to do in the first place. the next thing you know, the money is gone and that you've got to pay it back. everything goes back to normal except you've got to pay this big payment back which i know

that's the way life is but they shouldn't have made it so easy for us to get through two years of pandemic, it there should have been more grants. host: would you have gone out of business without that loan? caller: um, no because i think the landlords would have stopped being so hard on me. we started getting letters because the landlords realized that we were getting all this money and everybody thought we were getting this free money so the landlords tried to play hardball with us. guest: thank you for calling in. you were referring to small business administration's economic injury disaster loan. in washington, it has to have an acronym to be a legitimate program. the acronym is idle. there is bad news and good news

there. the good news is that sba was on the job and making cash available as john had asked you and that question that allowed many small businesses to survive. the bad news is that you've got to pay it back. this is a loan and it's sometimes hard to see past the survival into what's next. as it pans out with interest rates over 6%, the idea that you have a 30 year fixed 3% idle loan, that a bad. a lot of small businesses that i get to work with every day would kill for an under 3%, 30 year fixed loan for $60,000. host: is that with the going rate was? guest: sba works with treasury to set an interest rate and in 2020 and 2021, those idle loans

for the pandemic reset at 3% for 30 year fixed. in hindsight where interest rates are right now, it's a really good deal. that doesn't take the pain away from andrew and others having to repay it but thank goodness sba was on the job to allow many small businesses to survive past the pandemic. if there is another pandemic down the road, we are learning valuable lessons and i think andrew reminds us that the paycheck protection loans were a grant of free money upfront to make sure employees continue to receive paychecks and that was necessary and allowed millions of small businesses to survive.

the way we approach it was a little bit like the free money concept of ppp and in hindsight, maybe we shouldn't have done that. we shouldn't have characterized it as the same as ppp that this is a long and a continual reminder that these have to be paid back. when we are deferring the interest, we are deferring payment but interest is still going up so folks like andrew or face now with a big debt plus he's got 30 years to pay it off but in hindsight, if there is another pandemic in my think andrew is right, we should take a hard look at making it difficult to get the loan and make sure these are loans that businesses like andrew can pay back with hardship down the road. host: for the small business administration loans, about how

many did we give out, do we have a total amount of money and how it compares to the ppp? guest: the ppp outpaced the idle loans. it was $700 million but not at the level of ppp in the repayment, we are looking at 30 years down the road. a lot of work for sba to make sure that money is paid back to taxpayers so there is a lot of work ahead for sba. at the same time, they are doing a good job of looking back and saying how can we do it better if god for bid there is another type of pandemic down the road. keep in mind, these loans are not just for the pandemic. there's a hurricane, wildfire,. a disaster is declared in conjunction with the governor and washington, d.c. with sba, then that triggers the idle program to avail low interest loans for those small businesses.

the lessons we've learned that andrew asked about, we are applying those two disasters that happen right now. host: this is leonard in suitland, maryland, good morning. caller: good morning. host: what's your question or comment? caller: i've been an owner/operator since 2021. before then, i was a driver for corporate business. what i've noticed being an owner operator is that it's a lot of scamming and robbery going on. i am a career and i work for a shipper but instead of working directly with the shipper, after work in between with rocher's and dispatchers and then we have a factory and all of these entities literally suck all the money out of us from the get go. the broker's profit from the job

and after we do the job, the company we did the job for won't pay us for 30-45 days. we have to literally face another four or 5% in order for us to cash out, we have to get them an additional $10 because the 45 or 35 days only drops to five days once we paid the 6%. after we pay that can we have to cash out for another $10 and the rates are already low in the principle is high. we can't get any loans because they're based off of our bank statement and for bank statement doesn't stay at a certain amount every month, you get denied the loans. we get no help at all and everybody seems to have the ability to rob us. host: thanks for sharing your story. guest: first of all, thank you

for being a small business owner yourself. it seems wicked decade ago but it was just last year were supply chains were giving us a bad taste entering into the holiday season. small businesses like yours really saved the day by getting packages from the west coast to the east coast and from the northern order to the southern border and vice versa. thank you for what you do. i could never put it as well as you did about how darned complicated it is. it's just hard. it's hard for leonard, it's hard for millions of other businesses. that's without government getting in the way. i think the good news long-term is that when leonard looks at these inefficiencies is a hassle. i call it the hassle factor.

technology is enabling us to minimize the hassle that you are going through. ultimately, it should get easier. a lot of what i do and what we do with the chamber of commerce as we make sure government does not come in and throw in a set of other rules and regulations that leonard has an easier time with the business he has to navigate. the last thing we want to do is have the government come in and make it more complicated. a lot of what we do is try to push back at work government tries to micromanage small businesses like leonards. leonard is a small business owner, a truck driver and has a cdl license. it's absolutely critical for the commerce that goes on in the united states. the department of labor will finalize rulemaking that will penalize independent contractors

and soul's proprietors like leonard and make leonard an employee of a larger business. host: why would they want to do that? guest: this started in california with the ballot initiative calledab5 and it's the idea that this concept that everyone doesn't want to be their own business, this concept which i disagree with is that people really want to be employees because they are taken care of better by the employer. i think that's absurd. you talk with small business owners who want to be their own boss. they want to be a consultant or a cdl driver for seven or eight different clients, they want to manage their own schedule and they don't want to be someone else's employee but that's how we think at the chamber of commerce. it's not how government thanks. in california, they said sole

proprietors, non-employers are deemed to be employees of their largest businesses and the department of labor is trying to do that. we think that will make it harder for leonard to be a successful small business owner. we will fight back with everything we have to make sure people who want to be their own boss have the freedom to do so. it's part of the fabric of free enterprise in this country. host: you said earlier that you are excited you can lobby for small business owners every day. do you think lobbies get a bad name? guest: absolutely, it's easy -- when folks are frustrated and they see things in washington make it harder for them instead of easier, i don't blame people for being frustrated and angry with that. lobbyist like me who's job is to provide information to lawmakers

to make the business environment better, if folks put their frustration on us, that's part of the job. i think it's unfortunate that lobbyist get a bad name and i think there is some miseducation that every part of american lives has an advocacy interest area whether it's hiking or boating, i went skiing this past weekend with my two teenage boys. the ski industry has their advocates. the water rights people basically make sure that water is replenished that makes the snow at timberline ski report in west virginia. they have advocates for cleaner one or any want to make sure we are not squandering nature's resources. they have lobbyists. i think if there's a better understanding that the information flow that comes into washington, d.c. always has at

least two sides. it's a little more complicated with 34 or five different sides on any given issue but every side, every perspective, every approach to lawmaking has an advocacy organization behind it. his particle makes our democracy work. host: how did you get into lobbying? guest: i entered in washington, d.c. while i was in law school. i interned at the environmental protection agency. i loved it and i loved rolling up my sleeves and working hard at trying to make a positive difference in people's lives. it is one of the most fulfilling professions in the united states, the idea you can work hard at your job advocating for something you believe in and hopefully make a positive difference in people's lives, it gets me out of bed in the morning. that and a lot of coffee. host: phone numbers of your

small business owner, (202) 748-8002. otherwise eastern time zone, (202) 748-8000, or other time zones, (202) 748-8001. david is in auburn, new york, good morning. caller: yes, good morning. nice to be on. you are right about the complexity. i've watched this happen for the last 50 or so years. i'm a small contractor like a lot of subcontracting people do in the rental business and homeowners. i was also on the others of this for 35 years because i worked in the new york state gerard chrissy as a prison guard and i sought from that side of the street. i want to give some positivity

to this conversation. we have a 60% workforce participation. we have not done a good job to incorporate people into the habit of work. everybody know want to be in the business of regulating work in the small business administration is another large bureaucracy along with all the other bureaucracies trying to make a living off of the fewer and fewer people who actually work. you can move the money around, you can shift the pieces around but until you get back to this and i'm going back now to the 1960's when i got my first part-time job after school, until now and i'm still working at 76 years old, i'm still working not out of a desire so much as that people keep calling me because there is a dearth of skilled labor in this country, that's another good question. let's say this -- you've got too much government, you've got not

enough workers and you are trying to have this and you can't support a bureaucracy does big. you need to cut the size of government and bureaucracy. it's on every level. the city zoning board i sit on and i see it here and i go to the city council meetings and i listen to the rhetoric there. it's a self interested bureaucracy that is run in this country. until you people wake up and address that working knowledge it, i will just leave it there. i know it's a huge subject. thanks very much. host: thanks for the call. guest: david, thank you for calling in. i couldn't agree with you more. it's hard for me to sit here and not jump off and start applauding when you call in with these types of comments. something that i think is important to acknowledge is that washington, d.c. works better when small business owners take

some time out of their business and come to washington, d.c. and speak the truth to lawmakers who want to help but sometimes that desire to help doesn't end up actually helping. the same is true for government agencies. government agencies want to do right but if they are not directly involved with small business owners, sometimes it doesn't work out that way. there is actually a law that requires federal agencies, whether it's a department of labor or whether it's the environmental protection agency or other agencies that require small business input before they finalize rules and regulations. i don't think that law works as well as it should. i think david's comments are right on point. we are working with senator ernst from iowa and it should be introduced in a bipartisan fashion in the house shortly, and amendment to this law that

actually better brings small business voices into government decision-making. host: how would they do that? guest: a lot of this has to do with transparency. we talked a little bit about the department of labor rule that would affect non-employers. i don't leave the department of labor truly received small business input the way they should. if department of labor finalizes the rule and ignores what small businesses have said, the current law just allows them to plow forward. it's without that check to say wait a minute, small businesses said this is not a good idea in california for instance where they had this law in place, they had to amend the law with over 20 exemptions because it just didn't work for small businesses. we are in washington, d.c. and

we are trying to connect small businesses like david with department of labor so the department of labor can make a better decision that incorporates david's comments into their final rule. i think that can work better. it's a law that has not been amended in over 20 years and it needs to be modernized and i commend senator ernst in particular for forwarding the legislation. i think it goes a long way to bringing transparency to rulemaking and bringing the voice and common sense of small businesses into how the government works. host: what rules are going into effect in 2024 that small business owners will have to know about and might impact their business? guest: we may need another hour or so to have that discussion. i make light of it but it's very serious. there is an expression that says

inflation might be going out but rate-flation is going up. the american action forum is measuring the number of regulations that president biden is putting in place and compares that by week to what president obama put in place. president biden is close to twice the amount of regulations at this point in his administration compared to what president obama put in place. getting it to some of the particulars -- one rule that we are trying to convince the department of treasury to postpone for a year is a rule for small businesses to report their ownership changes. it is a rule that is promulgated by what's called a thin set, the financial crimes enforcement network with -- within the department treasury. there is the corporate transparency act that wants to prevent money laundering and the

way that congress believes that can be done is for small businesses to register with thin set to say their ownership has changed. we don't believe it has set this program up well enough to actually educate small business owners and make it easy for them. we are pushing them to postpone it. there is another law that is pretty draconian in its approach. it's issued by the national labor relations board this is a rulemaking called the joint employer rule. it is quite an insult to a lot of small business franchisees who may have burger king or mcdonald's on their store but they themselves are small business owners. they are not joint corporate mcdonald's or giant corporate burger king's. they are a small business owner and they sometimes owned many of these franchises but the late --

national labor relations board wants to take every problem that happens an individual restaurant like an individual mcdonald's and suddenly make the entire lorch just large corporation responsible for that one problem the one entrepreneur wants to solve as their own business owner. that is a big one coming up. there has already been lawsuits. the chamber of commerce filed it and successfully convinced the court to push this rulemaking off because of its severe consequences for small businesses. host: donna in far rockaway, new york, good morning. caller: good, c-span. i'm following these great questions from these business owners. i have something very rudimentary to say. living in new york, you see every mayor talk about how they want to improve small businesses and how they want to help small businesses. i would like to use queens

boulevard as an example. there is no parking. you could circle around the block three times if you want to go somewhere to a takeout place or a boutique or whatever and you will circle the block three times and then you say forget it, there is no parking. i think they should relax the parking in those areas related to small businesses. that's my comment and i thank you for c-span. guest: thank you so much for calling in. donna's observation is part of what makes my job at the u.s. chamber of commerce so worthwhile. we get to work with multiple chambers of commerce around the united states that exist to solve the problems of donna. and millions of others around the united states. i'm not sure what her local

chambers doing but i can almost guarantee you that they are on the parking issue. i know i'm a little bit biased coming from the u.s. chamber of commerce but these local chambers who operate sometimes with one person or sometimes they have 20 staff, they bring communities together to solve problems like parking, like where the traffic goes. one of the positive consequences of covid was the relaxation of many local ordinances. if you walked down the streets of many cities, many towns, you will see outdoor dining. prior to covid, they wouldn't have been allowed. because of fear of transmitting covid, they are allowed outdoor

dining which was safer because you are in an outdoor environment. all of a sudden, the light bulbs went on above the heads of mayors around the country saying this community loves having outdoor dining and these merchants along main street are benefiting. let's make this permanent, let's relax the ordinance that prohibited sidewalk dining and let's benefit from the economic developments and the community growth that comes with it. donna's comments are right on point. i commend those local chambers of commerce executives for taking these issues on. host: you mentioned the local chambers of commerce and some have different size staff so who pays for the local chamber of commerce? is it dues paid by a business in the community? guest: we are coming up on the time of season where we go home

for christmas dinner and most of my family still thinks i work for the u.s. government and that's not the case. every chamber of commerce is a member, dues paying organization. i represent the 3 million businesses, most of whom are small who belong to either a local, state or us of the u.s. chamber of commerce. they pay dues to belong. they pay dues to have folks who live next to donna and are involved in a local parking issue. they pay dues to the u.s. chamber of commerce when we are working before congress on the white house to make the economic environment. host: some go to the local chamber and some go to the national chamber? guest: yes, not only do we have a quarterly index survey from metlife, i also have a group of 50 oars -- small business owners to pay dues to the u.s. chamber

of commerce and serve as their small business council. they do retail sales, online sales, construction and so forth but the people i rely on every week are the small business owners tell me what's going on in their hometown. host: a few minutes left and we will take a couple of more calls. sarasota, florida on the line for small business owners, good morning. caller: good morning. it's disheartening, your opinions of your guests about government and the reason for the government interventions and requiring laws is to protect people, not just workers but also from big business. the fella earlier who called in about being a truck driver and all these private businesses

that were taking his money and giving him a challenge about being able to handle the cost of living and being able to get loans in your guests response was how bad the biden government is and went off on a tangent. this is about protecting the people, protecting the workers, protecting small businesses for a level playing field because there are so many large organizations. that's what the government does. i'm very supportive of the small business owner in helping to protect people like myself whether it is from the ira collecting taxes from people or establishing a level playing field. everything can't be that government is bad as your guest is coming across. it's not, we need to protect the small people, small business owners and the people working there as well. there is nothing wrong with that

and it don't feel he's very fair. he's very biased. guest: thank you for calling in. also thank you for the reminder of partnership with the federal government. first of all, the sba saved millions of small businesses through ppp. sometimes i forget that and i shouldn't so i think your comments are well received. i want to make sure that my comment about bringing small business voices into decision-making, it may be clarified a little bit. the way government works best is in partnership with small business owners. bringing small business owners voices into government decision-making works. i was honored to serve six years as a chief counsel for advocacy at the small business administration under president george w. bush.

the role of that office is to bring small is and is voices into government decision-making process. the process doesn't work without our partners in government whose job it is as hunter said to make sure that there are protections in place. one thing i disagree with a little bit is whether or not a lot of small businesses actually want the federal government to protect them. generally speaking, i hear from small business owners who say just leave me alone. we can protect ourselves when it comes to helping our employees and growing our community. i think hunter's comments about the partnership that has to exist between small businesses and our friends in government is what is necessary to actually make our economic environment work. host: a question from folks watching at home --

guest: i appreciate the comment. the weight small businesses and large businesses and we represent both at the u.s. chamber of commerce. the best thing to happen is when there is a recognition of codependency. small businesses rely on large businesses primarily to bring innovation to market. large businesses depend on small business to actually innovate from within. larger businesses are not that great at innovating. small businesses are. there was a study by sba several years ago that showed pratt -- patent propensity. that means small businesses are issuing more patents per employee at roughly 18 times the rate of their larger business counterparts. it's that type of innovation that benefit the overall economy.

at the u.s. chamber of commerce, we try to focus on areas where there is that mutual working together for the betterment of the american economy. i'm proud of recent initiative called the prompt pay pledge. this is an initiative that asks large businesses to simply pay their vendors and suppliers after, very simple we've already had an amazing uptick in membership in this initiative. first out-of-the-box was j.p. morgan chase and a large business called into it. --intuit. it just makes sense and is not something that needs government support although we did have the chair and ranking member of the senate small business community endorsed the prompt pay pledge. this is something we will lean into throughout 2024 but it's that type of helping each other, large and small businesses, that i think is the path forward.

host: for more of the chambers work with small businesses, it's u.s. chamber.com/sb and tom sullivan is the vice president there. thank you for your time, come back again. up next, we will talk with the economic policy institute new report from that group on paid sick leave in the united states. stick around for that discussion. we will be right back. ♪ >> americans can see democracy at work and citizens are truly informed and the public thrives. get informed straight from the source on c-span, unfiltered, unbiased, word for word from the nation's capital to where ever you are, because the opinion

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c-span, your unfiltered view of politics. >> if you ever miss any of c-span's coverage coming can find it anytime online at c-span.org. videos of key hearings, debates and other events feature markers that guide you to interesting and newsworthy highlights, these points of interest markers appear on the right-hand side of your screen when you hit play on select videos. the timeline makes it easy to see what was decided and debated in washington. spend a few minutes on the points of interest. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we turn out to the topic of paid sick leave in the united states and their guest is elyse gould of the economic policy institute. remind viewers with the mission is and how you go about it? guest: we use the tools of economics to try to push policy and do research around low and

moderate income families and workers. host: paid sick leaves is one of those policies? guest: absolutely, we look at family economic security. it's very important for workers and their families. host: set the table for where we are in this country having to do with sickly. a report on that topic came out about how many people have access to paid sick leave. where don't people have access? guest: about three quarters of people in the u.s., the workers have access to paid sick days so that means they can earn them from their jobs. for every weekday work, they can use it when they care for themselves. host: where are we seeing states expanding paid sick leave and where are they? guest: over the last 10 or 15 years, we have seen about 15

states and the district of columbia increase access to paid sick days. that means those states have a mandate that players have to allow their workers to earn paid sick days. in parts of the country where there have been more legislation and more access to paid sick days, we see that on the pacific side and new england, you see the highest incidence of paid sick days across the country. host: we were talking about small businesses in our last segment. two people in small businesses have more or less access? guest: generally, they may have less but the mandate would require all employers to provide that access and it's good for businesses. workers are less likely to come -- to call in sick and they are less likely to get their colleague sick and they're less likely if their kid is sick and less likely to get their classmates sick, they're less likely to get their customers sick so it could be better for the committee as well. host: why paid sick leave?

why not all these days lumped together and whether you can take vacation or sick days? why are they separate? guest: for other forms of lead, you can't necessarily take on a moments notice. host: you need to take it if you are sick immediately. that's a janita four. host: is there federal legislation moving forward on sick days? guest: there has been federal legislation that has been proposed. it hasn't forcefully not been passed yet. we did see during the pandemic that policymakers knew how important it was with covid spreading for people to have paid sick days. there is legislation that hasn't forcefully expired now so there has been the will to do but we need to have that will again. host: the phone numbers in this segment, we want to hear your stories and how it affects your

job so here are the phone lines -- if you make $150,000 per year, (202) 748-8000 is the number to call and if you make 50,000-200,000 dollars per year, (202) 748-8001, over $100,000 per year, (202) 748-8002 and business owners, (202) 748-8003. talk about paid sick leave in this country, the subject in the news with the covid resurgence in this country. the report that came out this fall, 15 states and the district of columbia expanded paid sick leave. what state has the most generous paid sick leave policy? guest: some of those in the pacific we see more generous policies. california was one of the early adopters but they expanded more. we think about what's more generous, it could be who is eligible to manger all workers no matter their tenure at the job, they become to eligible

from day one. you think about how many days you get so there are different parameters of how it could be different. what's important is about unpaid leaves of maybe having unpaid leave is enough. you have sums or of job security but it's not enough. many low-wage workers don't have the kind of economic security to take the unpaid leave. what can happen is if you have to take five days off because you are sick or your kid is sick and you have an infectious disease and you don't want to go to work or your spouse doesn't wanted to go to work, it could be as much as your whole grocery budget for your family for the month. it can be very expensive not only for your help but your financial well-being. host: what's the state with the least generous paid sickly policy? guest: there are many states. some states don't have any paid sickly policies on the books. some cities have it in their states but for the most part, there are many states that don't

have it which is why we need federal legislation to make sure everyone has that opportunity to earn paid sickly. host: elyse gould is with the economic institute. this is andrew in new york on the line for small business owners, good morning. caller: good morning. i'm listening about the paid sickly. i just returned after 77 years of a successful business. it's funny right now as we speak that i have someone in my family who sick with covid. they are in another part of the house right now. i don't know how i could've done what i do but the point, what i

was calling of bout was the town that i live in, we have a new administration and one of the things i will be joined with their new administration is reaching out to businesses in our towns, small businesses, not the large, the big name brands we are all familiar with. not the amazons of the world. this is what my contribution will be. i'd there has never been anything from anyone to listen to what our family had to go through them we did it on her own, fortunately. host: you said it was a lighting business? guest: yes, it was. host: how many employees did you have? guest: at one time, there were three and i was down to one which is myself. host: did you have paid sickly

that your business? guest: no. host: all the leave was lumped together? guest: let me tell you something, the amount of time i was out of work in the business i could count on one hand, maybe seven days and 46 years. i was very blessed with phenomenal health but if i don't work i didn't eat. i'm perfectly fine now financially. it's a real crapshoot that goes on and that's what want to reach out to small businesses in my community with the blessings of our new administration who is very much into this. i thought i would be a good person to reach out to someone who has done this. host: thanks for sharing your

story. guest: i think he made some great points about what happens when you are sick and you said it right. when you don't work, you don't eat. if you don't have paid sick time coming are not able to feed yourself or your family because you have to take off days. host: marilyn, beverly on the folks just on the line for folks to make $150,000 or more? caller: thank you for taking my call. my comment deals with housing. i live five minutes from washington, d.c. and i've lived all over the washington area. the cost of living here is outrageous. for a lot of earners, it doesn't match. people are working paycheck-to-paycheck like my folks working multiple jobs. i feel like government interference at the state and local level should happen

because i worked for -- i work for the government now. prior to doing that, i took care of seniors. i was a covid tester. i'm fully vaccinated and fully boosted and i caught it and was out of work for weeks. i lost where i lived. i just wanted to talk about the correlation with low wages but with no paid sick leave and how it can cause people to be homeless. it's a serious issue that i think needs to be revamped. thank you for taking my call. guest: i think you make a great point. what we know in this century is there a lot of inequality not only in wages but also access to these kinds of workplace benefits. if you are in the bottom 10% come only have 39% of those

workers have access to any paid sick leave. the top 10%, they are the highest wage workers that have 96% have access. that inequality means low-wage workers are far less likely to have sick days and are less likely to be working paycheck-to-paycheck. the low-wage workers don't have the economic security to stay home and not work. host: maryland for the line for those who make up to 100 $50,000 per year. caller: i wanted to comment on the policy my company has. all full-time employees are eligible for three days of sick leave upon coming on board and they use at the beginning of each calendar year. i think it's a great policy and all of our employees can take advantage of it which is used in conjunction with personal time off which employees also have the opportunity to earn.

i think they do a great job doing that. it's a federal contractor. you never heard employee complained about the leave policies for everyone. i think we should do something like this across the board for anyone that works in america. it seems like an obvious benefit to me. guest: i couldn't agree more. host:host: api.org is where vies can go to check out this report unpaid sick leave. 15 states and washington,.c. require employers to allow workers earn paid sick leave. 70% of private sector workers currently have access, up from 63% in 2010. the share of the lowest wage workers with access double from 20% to 39%.

what else from that report did you find interesting? guest: those are the highlights. when you think about who does not have access, these are the most vulnerable. they cannot take time off. there is more community transmission in places where they do not have paid sick leave. it matters for the workers, families, and communities they live in. host: a headline for over the summer. folks may remember this story. most unionized u.s. rail workers will now have access to new paid sick leave. guest: one of the important things we talked about is paid time off in general or sick leave, what is important about sick leave is your ability to take it when you need it. that is one of the issues that fight is about. host: this is tim from michigan. you are next.

caller: good morning. i was listening. i worked for walmart for eight years. i accrued a lot of sick time. i did get compensated when i left the company. for that. but i made so least amount of money working for walmart that i thought i would have to get to work just to make a living. a lot people out here it seems in the country are in that type of situation. i did go to a union job later on. i worked for a union job, knocked my pay up to decent wage. still kind of rough to live on. i mean, it was not nothing

fantastic. i do not know why the federal government has to step in and say you have to have sick leave. i am not following that aspect of things because it means they are sticking their nose in. if i want to make a living, then i need to go and get a job or if i want to stay where i am at and i am ok with that, i have to live that way. it does not make sense for the government sticking their nose into all of those stuff that they are doing right now. guest: i think one of the roles of the federal government is to provide basic living standards, basic labor standards for workers, so that is a minimum standard. that is making sure workers have the ability to earn paid sick time.

it is similar to other legislation, as you mentioned a unionized job that paid better. there are many workers across the country who want to organize and form a union and are not able to do that and we know that if you are in a union you have higher wages on average and you are more likely to have paid sick days than nonunionized workers. some of those are very important for the federal government. host: one of the biggest employers in this country, the federal government. what is the sickly policy for federal employees? guest: i do not know exactly. federal employees are able to earn paid sick time as they work and they can carry it from one year to the next. that is important. you never know. we heard from the caller earlier who did not have to take any paid sick time in the 47 years he worked in that company, but many people do. some people get sick more than other people. it is important for those people to get sick to be able to take that time and have it paid so

they are not showing up to work sick. host: the difference between specific sick leave time and emergency leave funds that you can add hours into, is that something if a company does not have specific sick leave? guest: it is important to have specific sick leave. workers know what it is therefore. they are using it when they need to use it. sometimes you can have emergency funds where other people can donate sick leave so if you are out and maybe a colleague can say i'm not going to need my now. if you get really sick, you will be able to use it. that sort of community sharing is a benefit. host: how would you build the program? does it roll over year-to-year? should you be paid out if you do not use it at the end of your time with the company?

guest: there should be flexibility built in. i would have people able to accrue it and i would not have any loopholes so part-time workers could get it. you could get it immediately when you start. and you will be able to roll that over. i do not have a specific stance on whether you get paid out later because i want you to have incentive for people to use it when they need it. you do not want them to be thinking about getting it later. you want them to use it when they need it so they are not coming to work sick and not sending their kids to school sick. host: what is a fair number of hours a year? guest: what has been proposed as seven days a year. something like that is a good starting plan. host: just a few minutes left if you want to talk paid sick leave with elise gould. the phone number is (202) 748-8000 if you make under $50,000 a year. if you make $50,000 to $100,000 a year, (202) 748-8001.

if you make over $100,000 a year, (202) 748-8002. then business owners, (202) 748-8003. michael, texas, good morning. are you with us? i am fairly certain michael is there, but we will see if we can get him. there you go. caller: hello? thank you. i want to compare or make a comparison between the types of industries. we have typically in smaller cities, local governments, they do not make as much but the benefits are better because they try to compensate employees based on the type of work they do, so private employees typically make more money but their benefits are not as great. public employees typically have

better benefits, but the pay is not great. you should define or designate the difference between the two when you talk about sick leave. and local governments, you might get more pto or sick time. in the private world, you might not get as much because they are trying to make money and pay employees for only work performed. i have had employees who have earned a lot of sick time but they also use it a lot. there is some abuse in that. the employees are not sick. i have seen them. i have seen them at parties and events while they are calling off sick during the day. so there is reasons why you have to have restrictions or stipulations on having sick time because if you do not there is going to be a lot of abuse. i think the split between sick time and pto should be split, so

if you have vacation time you should be able to use that and schedule it. you're supposed to work on a schedule and do what you have to do. then you use your sick time separately so the majority of employees i have had issues with and problems with in terms of poor performance are want to have zero sick time and better performing employees typically have available time when they really need it. just want to point those comments out. guest: you make a great point, that it is important to have different leave. i think it is great your employees were able to have vacation time or sick time. that is important, to separate those out and provide those. the data across the country is that many people who have paid sick time do not actually use it all in a given year. there's a lot of variation for people who get sick. they will use it more. for many people, they may only use two days a year, so they are

not actually using all of the leave that is given. they want to save it for when they might really need it. host: this is david, that line for folks who make under $50,000 a year. caller: i want to get $1062 a month from the government -- i was in the army. i'm 83 years old. they expect me to live off of that. host: are you talking social security? caller: -- i'm 83 years old. host: we are focusing on paid sick leave right now, not social security. guest: i have colleagues, it is not my area of expertise, but i have colleagues who work on

social security. certainly it is an important lifeline. there are policies we would want to pass to make it -- to secure it more so people have better financial security in retirement. host: epi.org is where viewers can go to look at the work of the economic policy institute. including a new report on paid sick leave. appreciate your time this morning. coming up next this morning, former supreme court justice sandra day o'connor will lie in repose at the supreme court today as part of a ceremony honoring the riesling to seized justice -- recently deceased justice. go ahead and start calling in pure the numbers are on your screen and we will get your calls after the break.

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you can find about books on our free mobile app or wherever you get your podcasts. >> "washington journal" continues. host: the supreme court is set up a tribute to the late sandra day o'connor. justice o'connor dated -- died on the -- at the age of 93. that ceremony is set to begin at the supreme court and just about 20 minutes, around 9:30 a.m. eastern time. until then, we are asking you to call in with your thoughts on the nation's first female justice, sandra day o'connor. (202) 748-8000 if you are in the eastern or central time zones. (202) 748-8001 if you are in the mountain or pacific time zone. go ahead and start calling in. let me go over the schedule of what is set to happen.

the casket is set to arrive at the supreme court. there will be a private ceremony in the great hall of the supreme court. the public is invited to pay their respects from 10:30 a.m. eastern until 8:00 p.m. eastern and we will show you live coverage on c-span and c-span.orgndhe free c-span now app. that will take place in washington, d.c. president biden will be eulogizing the former supreme court justice. her son and biographer will also offer tributes during the private ceremony at national cathedral tomorrow, december 19.

justice o'connor died in phoenix, age 93, due to complications related to advanced dementia and respiratory illness. we are asking you to call in with your thoughts about the nation's first female justice. (202) 748-8000 if you're in the eastern or central time zone. (202) 748-8001 if you are in the mountain or pacific time zones. this is from usa today, the obituary after justice o'connor died. justice o'connor died at age 93. o'connor was known as a powerful, pragmatic figure on the bench, casting decisive swing votes in landmark cases involving abortion, affirmative action, environmental protection , religious freedom. she died from complications related to dementia and respiratory illness. she was born in texas and raised in arizona, a cattle ranch.

she called herself the first cowgirl to serve on the u.s. supreme court. former president ronald reagan appointed o'connor in 1981. she was his first supreme court appointee, delivering on ronald reagan's campaign promise to nominate the first woman to the nation's highest court. the thought of a woman on the u.s. supreme court seemed almost unfathomable before ronald reagan's nomination of sandra day o'connor. that was from the executive director of the center for women in law in a statement after justice o'connor died. she said that justice o'connor defy the odds and broke down barriers. she was sworn in in september of that year and served under three chief justices over the course of 25 years. we mostly want to hear from you as we wait for the casket that will bear the body of the late

justice. you can see flags at half mast there. that ceremony set to begin around 9:30. (202) 748-8000 if you live in the eastern or central time zones. (202) 748-8001 if you live in the mountain or pacific time zones and just a few comments from social media on justice sandra day o'connor, from viewers watching this morning. it was mary lou who wrote, justice o'connor would be ashamed of maga republican racism today. rest in peace. and sonja tweeted, i remember she had a biting wit and asking for an example of her biting wit .

we can look at the c-span archives for that, plenty of archive material featuring justice o'connor at c-span.org and featuring the work of all supreme court justices. the latest gallup poll on the supreme court, here is some of what they found. that is close to the record low of 40% over the years that gallup has been pulling on that question. it is 49% that say they have trust and confidence in the supreme court, near the historical low as well. 47% with the historic low. 39% say the high court is too conservative. 42% say it is outright. 47% say the supreme court is too liberal.

if you want to talk justice o'connor or the supreme court as we wait here for the next 10 minutes for the arrival of justice o'connor's casket at the supreme court, (202) 748-8000 if you are in the eastern or central time zones. (202) 748-8001 if you are in the mountain or pacific time zones. it is going to be this morning that the supreme court will pay tribute to the late justice o'connor. live coverage beginning at 9:30 eastern. her body will lie in repose in the great hall othsupreme court for e public to pay their respects. tuesday, her feral service will be held at national cathedral in washington, d.c.. you can also watch online at c-span.org or the free c-span now app. jeremy is up first.

good morning. what do you think of justice o'connor, the first female supreme court justice? caller: i do not think much of her. i don't think she was a very good justice, especially with the bush decision. host: who do you think is a good supreme court justice? caller: no one. they are all bad. host: has there ever been a justice you like? caller: sure, there have been several of them. i cannot think of any right now, but there have been several in the past. right now, they are just horrible, especially clarence thomas. he is the worst. host: that is jeremy this

morning. this is carly out of philadelphia. go ahead. are you with us this morning? we are talking about the supreme court this morning in our last 10 minutes of the washington journal today, asking you to call in with your thoughts on the court and the late justice sandra day o'connor. (202) 748-8000 is the number if you're in the eastern or central time zone. (202) 748-8001 if you are in the mountain or pacific time zones. one of you are tweeting, i see the flag in the foreground is that half mast and the two behind it are not, wondering why. that is bill in ohio. that is the main plaza at the supreme court, across from the united states capital. that is the main flag on the plaza. you can see it is at half-staff this morning, awaiting the

arrival of the casket bearing the late justice. this was justice o'connor from the c-span archives several years ago, but some of what you can find there, this is justice o'connor. >> you right in the book the first time you experienced in oral argument was as a new sitting justice. do you have strong memories of that day? >> my first day on the court? it was such a remarkable feeling, to have been sworn in as a justice of the court, a position i never anticipated holding. i never aspired to that.

i did not think it was a realistic aspiration and i never spent time thinking about it. all of a sudden, out of the blue, here it came, inquiries about my availability to talk about a position on the court. that was a shock. i did not believe it would occur because in the first place already serving on the court was one of my classmates from law school, william rehnquist. he had been a good friend. he lived in arizona. i knew his wife as an undergraduate at stanford. they were personal friends of my husband and mine and it just was inconceivable to me that we will be asked to serve on the court at the same time. there are many states that to this day have never had anyone -- any woman serve on this court, so -- anyone serve on

this court. for the small state of arizona to have two the same time was unimaginable to me. when i was interviewed by the cabinet members in the reagan administration, i did not believe for a minute i would be asked to serve. i went back to arizona after those interviews and said to my husband how interesting it was to visit washington, d.c. and to me to the people around the president and the president himself and talk to him but i said, thank goodness i do not have to go do that job. i did not want it. i was not sure i could do the job well enough to justify trying. i have often said it is wonderful to be the first to do something, but i did not want to be the last. if i did not do a good job, it might have been the last.

when i retired, i was not replaced then by a woman, which gives one pause to think, what did i do wrong that led to this? host: from the c-span archives, the first woman supreme court associate justice. you can watch the full interview at c-span.org. we will continue with live shots of the plaza. the arrival ceremony set to begin in a few minutes here. the casket bearing the body of the late supreme court justice will arrive in a few minutes and then it will be brought up for a private ceremony in the supreme court. public viewing begins later this morning. you can watch here on c-span. this is eddie in illinois.

your thoughts on the late supreme court justice sandra day o'connor? caller: -- supreme. about the supreme court -- don't have to follow the jurisdiction as far as -- host: we are losing you a little. you are talking about ethics issues? caller: yes, about ethics. because we are three branches of government. if we are allowed to put in play whatever benefits them, our

government is in trouble. the supreme court is supposed to be the highest court in the land. to them and how they -- here cases, we are in trouble. that is what i wanted to say about the supreme court. i have not followed each one individually. i know there is a lot of information out there about each one, but i am looking at the overall ethics. host: this is one of our viewers in kentucky, saying she will be missed and was very kind and a loving person. may god bless her and her family at this time. god love justice o'connor. you can see the arrival ceremony of the casket, just about set to get underway on the front plaza

of the supreme court. the flag is at half-staff and all there to note the life and career of sandra day o'connor, playing a role in several important, key supreme court decisions, including planned parenthood v casey, the decision that protected abortion access and that was first established decades to roe v. wade. justice o'connor wrote the majority opinion there. the casket arriving now this morning, in front of the supreme court. we will take you there for live coverage on c-span.