affairs clifford young discusses public opinion, polling, and campaign 2024. a senior economist with the tax foundation, erica york, talks about tax policy this year and what to expect in 2024. "washington journal" ♪ ♪ is next. ♪ host: good morning. it is tuesday, december 19. the senate is back in session at 11:00 a.m. eastern.

we are with you for the next three hours. donald trump and his comments on immigrants and what he will do on day one if he returns to the white house. those comments have raised concern among his critics about authoritarianism and the potential for citing biden -- violence -- for inciting violence. we will hear what you think. we will hear from you on phone lines split by political party. republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. you can also send us a text at (202) 748-8003. if you do, please include your name and where you are from. otherwise, catch up with us on our social media. on x, it is @cspanwj.

former president donald trump's rhetoric on the campaign trail is our topic of conversation. it was saturday in a speech the president gave on the topic of immigration that was the latest comments that caught the eyes of critics of the president. here is some of what the president had to say. [video clip] >> we have a lot of work to do. i think the real number is 15, 16 million people into our country. when they do that, we have a lot of work to do. they are poisoning the blood of our country. that is what they have done. mental institutions and prisons all over the world, not just in south america. not just three or four countries we think about but all over the world they are coming into our country, from africa, from asia. they are pouring into our country. nobody is even looking at them. the crime is going to be tremendous. the terrorism is going to be. we built a tremendous piece of the wall and we were going to

build more. the election was rigged and we did not do it, but it was all built. it was ready to be wasted up. the exact wall that the border patrol, that is exactly what they designed. they had the anti-climb bars. they did not wanted to go up. they sold it for five cents on the dollar. all of that stuff. it is a very sad thing. host: former president trump in new hampshire saturday. here's the headline from rolling stone. republicans are excusing trump's poison the blood rhetoric. his rhetoric also earning other headlines is welcome including this one from the daily beast. trump's recent rhetoric is just as scary as it seems. republican voters know trump is not voting just joking with his

dictator remarks. that is why they love him. the dictator remarks harkening back to last month's fox news town hall events and his comments there. it was former president trump talking with sean hannity. we will show you that as we hear from you. we will show you that now. [video clip] >> under no circumstances -- you are promising america you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody. >> except on day one. i want to close the border and drill. >> that is not retribution. >> i am going to be -- he says, you are not went to be a dictator, are you? i said, no, other than day one. we are closing the border and drilling. after that, i am not a dictator. host: former president trump last month on fox news.

here is a headline from usa today on this topic. trump supporters reject the dictator concern. the rhetoric alarms authoritarian experts. it was senator lindsey graham of south carolina who asked about former president trump's comments on immigration when he was on meet the press on sunday. this is what he had to say. [video clip] >> the biden campaign has accused former president trump of parroting adolf hitler. what is your reaction? are his comments representative of how you and other republicans feel? >> 76% of the american people believe the border is broken. they are worried about fentanyl coming over. >> what about that language, poisoning the blood? >> i'm worried about an outcome. he had the border secured, the lowest in 40 years in december of 20. you are talking about donald

trump's language as you sit on the sidelines and allow the country to be invaded, 172 people on the terrorist watchlist have come under watch. >> just on the language. you have endorsed former president donald trump. are you comfortable with him using words like that? >> we are talking about language? i could care less what language people use as long as we get it right. i have no animosity toward people trying to come to our country. i have animosity against terrorists and drug dealers but i understand what people want to come to america. we have chaos and we need to create order. if you think you are going to win the debate on illegal immigration by picking a line out of the trump speech, most americans understand the game has to change, that we are under threat, that we are going to get attacked, that our border has been obliterated.

if you are talking what the language trump uses, that is a losing strategy for the biden administration. >> do you think he would appeal to more people if you chose different words on that argument? >> i think the president has a way of talking sometimes i disagree with, but he actually delivered on the border. host: republican senator lindsey graham on meet the press. we are talking about former president trump's rhetoric and asking your view on statement that garnered a lot of attention . if you are a democrat, (202) 748-8000 is the number. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002. starting on our republican line, terry in north carolina, good morning. caller: good morning, c-span. i don't make nothing of it considering the democrats deemed

that i am a deplorable, racist, white supremacist, nazi. are you going to hang up on me? host: you are still on. caller: the rhetoric that comes from joe biden against us people -- evil maga people, which means make america great, i have one question for all the democrats out there. seeing how you do not believe in america first, which country do you believe comes first? c-span, you guys need to quit this. what you are doing is gas lighting the country overlies because -- over lies because of your hate for people on the others. you guys can go to hell. host: this is barney in florida, line for democrats. caller: that guy just admitted how he thinks.

donald trump, you might as well put vladimir putin on tv every time you interview or show anything with donald trump. the man parrots the same thing. the only reason trump is running for president is to stay out of jail. the republican party, that guy just said out loud who they are. they say hits dog will holler. you see how loud you holler? that is them. it is a disgrace. pathetic. >> good morning. first, i like to say god bless

wall street journal. they say you lean this way and that way. i do not care if you spin in circles because it is the only place you can run your mouth and give your opinion. the first guy had a lot to say. i believe what he says is a little bit extreme. what scares me is what you say on the show and other liberal media outlets, on the fifth of december you had kellyanne conway's wife on there. you let him go for 45 minutes. you let him go. it does not seem fair. what has happened trump -- to trump is so wrong it ain't funny. how many people does it take to beat up trump? everybody. you cannot let it go.

trump would be almost through with his second term and you could have all your professional lawyers out there that normally run the government. everybody but trump is a professional crook. host: you're talking about george conway being on the program earlier this month. if you had called and, what would you have asked him? caller: how does he get away with this? does he pay you guys? host: no. caller: how many viewers do you have? host: we do not do ratings here on "washington journal," so we do not do numbers of viewers. we know we are in 100 million households around the country and people watch online and listen to podcasts. i do not have a daily fewer number for you. caller: i tried to call in.

when i hear the unfair and unbalanced, one-sided, all day long on every channel, the amount of hate is inordinate. it is unjustifiable. and the media is dividing this country. this is a shame that one says trump is a nazi and he is going to put us in cams or kill us or whatever, execute people. i just don't get it. how are you going to let this go on? host: to joe in missouri, republican, good morning. caller: god bless lindsey graham. even if he is gay, i like him. i'm convinced your producer is a democrat. i do not care what trump says. ok? i do not care what he says.

host: that is joe in missouri -- battle creek, michigan is next. caller: i have -- these are quotes from hitler versus trump. i have four here. the hitler quote is i will get rid of the communist vermin and the trump quote is i will get rid of the communist -- is identical, i will get rid of the communist vermin. then hitler, i will take care of the enemy within. trump's is i will take care of the threat from within. here is a third quote. hitler says jews and migrants are poisoning arion blood -- aryan blood. trump's is migrants are poisoning the blood of our country. a fourth one is one people, one

realm, one leader. that is hitler. trump is one leader, one family, one glorious nation. are you getting that? ? host: make your point. caller: what you need is a fascist germany historian. maybe you could have two historians on and compare the language. as i recall, the first speech that trump gave when he announced his candidacy in 2015, he talked about the mexicans coming across the border, bringing crime, drugs, some of them are rapists and murderers. he went on a whole rip about how awful the mexicans were. the crime rate among immigrants and mexicans is lower than the overall crime rate for everyone. host: you started off talking

about adolf hitler. that was a reference the spokesperson for the biden campaign made in their statement after former president donald trump's latest statement on saturday about immigrants. the spokesperson for the biden campaign saying, he channeled his role models as he parroted adolf hitler's, quoted vladimir putin while running for president. he promised to rule as a dictator and threatened american democracy. a statement from the biden campaign after that latest comment from former president trump. we are asking your view on the former president's rhetoric on the campaign trail. what do you think of it? it is causing a lot of headlines. we figured we would give you the chance to talk about it on the washington journal. this is dan in maryland, democrat.

>> good morning. anybody listening to these people screaming and yelling, my heart is pounding listening to this stuff. thank you for really talking about this because it is dangerous. let's not forget that words matter and hitler was elected after all the speeches he was giving about hate and vermin and all of that stuff. i am quite terrified that half this country does not understand the problem. this is not about america first. this is about the constitution and that we are all equal. all this hate and violence and anger -- republicans, you have to calm down. are you seriously going to elect this man to be president of the world essentially? read a little bit about ward --

world war ii. talk to some jewish people and if there are any left. host: out to idaho, frank, good morning. >> caller: going crazy over nothing. trump is the greatest present we've ever had. anybody who supports the invasion of america by the wetbacks is a traitor to the american people. host: diane in connecticut, good morning. caller: there were several comments that i did not like that he said. one was we will fight america like never before. so he is planning on another insurrection. he is arousing the people to fight america again. while he is campaigning. he should not be allowed to do that. another when i do not like you said, live free or die. what does he mean by that? that if you do not vote for him

you are going to die? and you will not live free? he is the worst president i have ever seen to run for america. host: it is the new york times today that takes a look at trump's speech, focusing on the speech he gave in reno, nevada sunday but quoting this speech and these lines that often get the biggest rounds of applause from his supporters at the event. every time the radical left democrat's, marxists indict me, i considered a badge of honor because i am being indicted for you. it goes on to say, they want to take away my freedom because i will never let them take away your freedom. the new york times in their analysis of that portion of the speech saying, mr. trump can systole portrays himself as the last bulwark defending american

democracy from the political left. with this sentence in his speech, about i will never let them take away your freedom, he turns his legal woes into a collective problem. he often adds, in the end, they are not after me. they are after you. i just happen to be standing in their way. a breakdown of the trump speeches. caller: thank you for taking my call. if he is on the ballot this election, i cannot wait to see which d the american people will vote for, democracy or dictatorship. host: jim, you are next. caller: can you hear me? host: yes. caller: first, look at the middle american people to vote for him across flyover country.

i grew up in pennsylvania where that last guy was from. i voted for trump when i was registered back there. i did not vote for him in 2020. i do not think he should run again because he is getting older too. i think we should have other people besides biden and trump, but that being said i believe that i voted for him out of my knowledge of mexicans, which were competing with them, working with them as they came into our area and began to float up into the area and all the trades that white guys and black guys worked in, there was desperation for years before him. i'm just trying to explain why we were so excited about him. the loss of wages and jobs being outbid by contractors with illegal alien workers. i dealt with that for almost 30 years of my life. you see the stuff in new york city and what happened in

martha's vineyard. people on the democrat side are beginning to get upset now. i was living in these small towns outside meatpacking plants, so the mexicans -- we were having run in starting about 30 years ago. i fled west out of necessity to get a better way of life, so there are a lot of people like that. with trump -- host: do you think the busing of migrants from texas to other states has done what it was intended to do by leaders in texas to show other parts of the country this issue that they have been dealing with? caller: it certainly has. it has with martha's vineyard, where they gay people some potato chips and hugs and took them tune army base. i could not do that with the meatpacking plant where we had no say. nobody cared about what we said. i was talking about the stuff 20 years ago.

host: we were just seeing a graphic in the washington times on busing of migrants from texas, showing some 80,000 have been shipped to various cities around the country, democrat lead cities, including 29,000 to new york, 10,000 to denver. the graphic there showing -- calling it the magic bus, as they refer to it. caller: yes. that is my favorite song by them, magic bus. i do not hate mexicans. neither does anybody who voted for trump. i worked with them. i worked with guatemalans. i worked with nigerians, buddhists, and black guys. i wanted to say the donald trump gave us some good trade deals p he got rid of nafta he talked to our enemies. he tried to secure the border. he did not -- i want to say something about liz cheney.

liz cheney is going around with this like profiles encourage person and acting like trump is a dictator. i agree with the democrat party about her father. has she forgotten her father? he was the most hated man before donald trump. he gave us the surveillance state. he gave us a million people dead in iraq. he gave us the worst economy, the meltdown of 2008. her own father was a threat to democracy. donald trump is not -- democrats talk about what he is going to do. seven years ago, they were saying he would be hitler and mussolini. we were not involved in two proxy wars under trump. we were not friends with this invasion. he did not put people in camps and never will. why would he? host: you mentioned liz cheney.

she was on abc's this week earlier this month, asked about the dictator on day one comment by the former president. >> i want to ask you about trump's recent comment that he would be a dictator on day one in office. typical republican reaction to that came from senator kevin cramer, who said he was just being funny. most have said nothing about it. do you think that is serious? >> we have to take everything donald trump says literally and seriously. we saw what he was willing to do already after the 2020 election in the lead up to january 6. people need to remember when he woke up on the morning of january 6 he thought he would remain as president. we saw the extent to which she was willing to attempt to seize power when he lost an election

and the wishful thinking that we see from some any people now suggesting he will certainly now abide by the rulings of the court or be stopped by the guardrails of our democracy, simply that, wishful thinking. host: liz cheney on december 10. one more on the topic of liz cheney and adam kinzinger, her fellow republican who joined her on the house january 6 select committee. it was former speaker paul ryan in a virtual conversation, asked about how history would judge liz cheney and adam kinzinger for their efforts to call out donald trump. this is the former speaker of the house. [video clip] >> i think they basically called him out for that. he is a populist, authoritarian narcissist. historically speaking, all of his tendencies, whatever makes them popular makes them feel good at any given moment. he does not think in classical

liberal-conservative terms. he thinks in an authoritarian way and has been able to get a big chunk of the republican base to follow him because he is the culture warrior. i think adam and liz stepped out of the flow and called out. and paid for it. paid for it with their careers, but i think, back to my earlier point, i do not think you can be good at these jobs unless you're willing to lose these jobs. there has to be some principal that is so important to you that you are not going to cross. so when you're looking at yourself in the mirror you like who you see. i think adam and liz are liking what they see. i think a lot of these members of congress, like on the second impeachment, they thought trump was dead and that he would not have a comeback. they figured i will not take this heat and vote against this impeachment because he is gone anyway.

but what has happened is he has been resurrected. there is lots of reasons for that, but he has been. i think there are a lot of people who already regret not getting him out of the way when they could have, like an impeachment. i think history will be kind to those people who saw what was happening and called it out even though it was at the expense of their personal well-being. host: former speaker of the house paul ryan in an interview late last month. it is coming up at 7 -- on 7:30 on the east coast. we are setting aside this time to get your view of former president donald trump's rhetoric on the campaign trail. (202) 748-8000 for democrats to call in. (202) 748-8001 for republicans. independents, it is (202) 748-8002. we will look for your texts and social media posts. this is george in ohio, independent. caller: hi, john.

you are my favorite host. the word rhetoric should not be used in this question. who do you think russia, china and iran prefer as president? they do not want trump. you would not have this mess going on today. i would not be surprised if they react militarily in taiwan and even here next year. if trump gets in, he is going to change the whole status of those countries. they will not fool around with the u.s.. why are the democrats and the liberal left so against trump? he has all the dirty secrets of our federal government right at his hand. why do you think they went for the classified information that was not even classified because as president he had the right to declassify it? why do you think they go after giuliani?

the constant pressure they put on him? host: donald trump's words on the campaign trail have seemed to trigger a lot of intense response. that is what we are asking about. caller: when joe biden mentions the dog thing or the six ways to get even that schumer said, was that rhetoric? come on let's be fair. you have to be fair with us. that is all i am saying. you have to be fair. host: what is a better way to ask this? >> his comments, not rhetoric. your view on trump's comments. if you look at the things going on in this country, as a senior citizen i get a 3% social security increase. do you think it is going to cover biden could care less about seemed -- senior citizens. what have democrats done with social security? they have not raise the salary

cap. they have not done anything. democrats like to use that as a talking point because if they fix it they cannot use it anymore. let's be civilized about all this. host: this is bubba in memphis, tennessee, republican. caller: good morning. donald trump knows exactly what he says and does exactly what he wants to. he gets you all talking about him. he is the best president we have ever had. our country was safe. we are not safe right now the country is not safe. we need trump back in office to get this thing straightened out. you have not talked about biden at all. he cannot even get off a stage. wouldn't you hate to be an interpreter of sign language trying to sign what biden is saying?

we need trump back in there. his rhetoric or whatever you want to call it is great. you are talking about him every day and he will be the next president. host: do you agree with an attendee at a trump rally in new hampshire, interviewed by usa today for their story on former president donald trump's comments, saying he is like a guy with a laser pointer and the left is a cat follow it around? caller: you all do. you pick up on one word and hang on that. like one guy said it while back, the people that support trump have been called all kinds of names by you guys on the left. you called is everything under the sun. trump is going to be the next president. i cannot wait. the last election, these businesses boarded up buildings and it was not because if trump

becomes -- if biden becomes president -- it was because if trump becomes president you people on the left was going to tear up everybody's business, so we have to look forward to that too when he gets elected. have a good day. go, trump. we are going to have him in 2024. host: trump supporters reject the dictator concern. however, rhetoric alarms authoritarian experts. one of those experts interviewed for that story is a sociology professor at cornell university who studied nationalist and populist local movements. she says, trump often says what he means and often says it in the form of a joke. the second part is i do not think we should discount him. it is one of those classic trump things which have two meanings. there is a grain of truth and

also a joke. some of his most outrageous statement are worth paying attention to, she said in that story. this is ronald in north carolina come outline for democrats. caller: can you hear me? my, was -- my comment was the democrat party, i'm ashamed of that party, how mean they are and how wicked they are and what they have done to trump, lack mailing him and working in their house and chuck schumer said they are god in the house. that is what i heard him say. he said we are god in the house. he is trying to play god. nancy pelosi tearing up the speech behind trump's back, that was a shame to the nation right there. i think trump is going to get back in. thank you. host: this is bill adams writing

on facebook to this question. there are many shoot from the hip statements but it is his personality. more important are his accomplishments in american industry and energy independence and military strength. border security and respect for this country. this is dave saying he does not praise great leadership, he praises dictators and authoritarians. that is more than rhetoric and his supporters are shrugging it off. this is jean in illinois, independent. good morning. caller: it is amazing how these republicans get on there and no matter what trump can't do no wrong. let's just state the facts here, people. trump flew covid -- blew covid.

he let it ravage over the states. he stood there with putin. would not even let us into know what they were talking about. do you think it has anything to do with maybe ukraine? sit back now. you know we own you. turned around, left office. now where is all these russians? classified information that our government has piled together against russia and it just comes up missing. nobody's talking about the trump and mark meadows took classified information. they cannot find it. nobody has been charged yet. it is ridiculous. host: this is robert come

outline for democrats. -- robert, line for democrats. caller: -- for one reason. tyrant -- don't become president. like donald trump -- on the electoral college vote. because of anybody watched that january 6 raid on that capitol building, that capitol building is like the campus police. donald trump had the military waiting outside for 2.5 hours. on top of that, the fbi and cia

need to make a profile on donald trump's mental capacity. host: this is peter, new york, republican. caller: thanks for letting me on. his rhetoric, he takes bad choices of words. when everybody is missing is his policies, his border policies. he has spent more money on black colleges than anybody else. it is sad that we have republicans and democrats fighting each other. let's face it, they both do the same thing. people are missing it. trump says stupid things come up with a do not look at his policies. i disagree with his abortion policy. but if they look at this, if we had somebody who could do his policies and not say stupid things we would have a held of a president. host: louisville, kentucky,

independent. caller: i was listening to a program about trump. i am just an independent, but i see people, and it is just not trump. all the candidates. the news is supposed to report just the news. newspapers also. behind the newspapers and the programs, they tend to put their own spin on things. that really should not be, but it does happen. i watched trump the other night when he was speaking about where he had the dictatorship for one day. what that was pertaining to was the border wall and something else. it came across as a joke. he meant those things he was want to do regardless, but it came across -- it was light.

then the next day on the news and stuff, here came that twist from different news organizations and newspapers, so it is not only trump. i am an independent. biden says things and fox twists this and that and other news agencies too. all i can do is go on what past president's history is. i like trump. when he says make america great again, i think america sticks their noses into many other peoples business. it gets us in trouble. throwing money left and right out the window to other countries. we cannot even feed our own. what we need to make america great again is military strength. we are perceived to be week. host: are you in a dependent that is going to vote for donald trump if he wins the republican

nomination? caller: i am. i have never voted for him before. i voted for biden, but i changed my mind. the current situation -- biden is getting old. age, you cannot stop it. unfortunately, along with aging, other things begin to deteriorate. he is 80. he actually has lived over the lifespan of a man from of a male -- a man, of a male. it is just part of life. i do not see any future at the moment with democratic party for that reason. i am going to try something different. i do believe in the border wall. i believe in that. i think people are coming across right now looking for a better life. i understand that, but come

across legally. it is not their fault that we have opened up the borders. it has become -- it is more than chaotic. it has become a major problem. host: the senate set to meet at 11:00 a.m. today and discussions continuing on a possible border security-immigration deal that might unlock additional aid for ukraine. negotiations continuing among senators and white house staff this week on that front. the senate also taking care of several nominations this week, the week before the christmas holiday break. yesterday, if you were watching this program, we ended early because of the funeral services and lying in repose of former justice sandra day o'connor, the first woman to serve on the

supreme court. it was her casket being carried into the supreme court. the public allowed to pay their respects yesterday. today, those services continue, the actual funeral service itself will take place at washington national cathedral. there is a live picture of washington national cathedral. the services are set to begin at 11:00 a.m. eastern and we will bring you live coverage on c-span, c-span.org, and the free c-span video app. president biden and chief justice john roberts among those scheduled to speak at the funeral service. 11:00 a.m. eastern is one that starts on c-span -- when that starts on c-span. this is rita and pennsylvania come outline for democrats. what are your thoughts on donald trump's words on the campaign trail? caller: i cannot believe that

people are that desperate, that they would want to have a man who has done all kinds of things be president again. turning everybody against each other. then you have him talking about immigrants. the first word out of his mouth was africans coming here. i see these black people in the background cheering him on. if he had his way, he will put them on a boat and send them back to africa. it is ridiculous. how pathetic can people be, that they want this meant to be the president question mark that is all i have to say. host: sheila, republican. caller: thank you for taking my call. i'm sitting here and seething at the lies these democrats come across with. you just had a caller on that says trump did all these bad things. why don't you ever ask what those bad things were? i would like you to ask were democrat callers, what good has biden done for this country?

there is not a place in this cash price in this country that has not escalated and there is not anything in this country that is better than it was when trump was president. they keep talking about his rhetoric. these people do not understand english. they do not have any sense of humor. this business about him saying they have soiled the blood of america. he is talking about our cultural background. the things these people are bring into this country and they are not assimilating. they want things changed. democrats have done nothing but ruin this country. we have over 10 million people that have come into this country that are sucking off of our tax money. they are -- can't speak the language and they want to change the way we live. and it is wrong. one day, just ask, what has biden done good for this country?

hundreds of attacks over in the middle east on our military bases. we are involved in wars. these people say donald trump will be a dictator? i do not remember donald trump telling us what kind of toilets we have to use or lightbulbs we have to use or that we cannot use gasoline leaf blowers or things like that. these people better wake up. we are in big trouble with biden. thank you. host: that is sheila. about 15 minutes left in this first segment of the washington journal, talking about donald trump's words on the campaign trail. here is more of the former president on the campaign trail sunday. [video clip] >> we need common sense. we are the party of common sense the republican party. you want to strong borders. you do not want people coming in from prisons and mental institutions. i will shift massive portions of federal law enforcement to

immigration enforcement, including parts of dhs. i will make clear that we must use any and all resources needed to stop the invasion of our country, including moving thousands of troops currently stationed overseas in countries that do not like us here and they laugh at our current president. they think he is a fool and we should not be there. host: former president donald trump from sunday. this is steve. good morning. caller: i liked what you just played. i did hear the dictator thing. he wants to shut down the border and drill. that is it. those were his comments. i did watch other stations and they did not play his comments. they basically gave their comment on what he said. host: the other ones were the

poisoning the blood of america on the issue of immigration. what are your thoughts on that one? caller: i did not see that one. i get with the last caller said about the people coming here. we understand they want a better life. if you are not going to assimilate and try to be -- i think that is where he is going. if you are going to come here, come here illegally and work hard and don't basically take advantage of the system. that is with the last caller was getting around to appear in there's nothing wrong with what he said. you do not let -- let a bunch of strangers you do not know kicked down the door and say come on in. host: kathleen is in new york, democrat. good morning. caller: good morning. i am getting sick to my stomach listening to people who truly believe that trump is america

first. i am so sick of it. anyway, i want everybody to listen because this is not my words. it is trump's. one night out slipping the station and i am like, it was one of his rallies. this was a while ago. still. before he got to the podium, i could hear him talking. when i got this gig, people said to me, i have to have compassion for people. i have to feel for people. then his face got bright orange and red and he had this crazy smirk on his face and then he walks in front of the podium. he put his right hand out and puts it out to the audience across back and forth and he could not even say that he cared about them. about the border and the wall, he had four years to build that

wall but he kept going down. he wanted to look nice. hello, people. he cares about himself. he does not have the capability to care for others. he cares about power and money. that is what he cares about. those were his words that i spoke. his words. he does not have the capability to feel for people. he is about power and money. host: this is jack in washington, pennsylvania come line for republicans. caller: the question is being framed wrong. it should be what do you think about the stupid reaction of liberals to the statements that trump made about being a dictator on day one. what he said he wanted to do was to start drilling and close the border. if i remember correctly, back on joe biden's first day, he

decided he was want to stop drilling and open the border. why is he not considered a dictator for doing those things? i am disappointed in c-span for portraying the question this way. it is always portrayed about trump and what he says and not about the reaction when it is taken out of context. a lot of people, mostly the liberals, who do not have the facts here and they just want to take it out of context and make statements. it is disappointing to me that c-span would portray it this way. that is my comment. host: robert is in greenville, north carolina, independent. caller: all these people that are just losing their mind about donald trump, you have to remember when he had the house, the senate, and the president he could have done anything he wanted. the wall did not go up.

mexico did not pay for it. he was never going to play any golf because he would not have time. he would be too busy working for the united states of america. he play more golf, cost us over $100 million for his golf trips. every weekend, he played golf. he played more golf than any president in united states. even his wife plagiarized michelle obama's speech. they are nothing but grifters. they have been grifters all their lives. they ruined people's lives that they have done business with because they are crooks. it is hard to believe that you people cannot see this. he should be in jail. he should not even be out on bail. if any of us had said or done the things he has done, we would be in jail waiting to go to

trial. there would not be bond on us because he is a menace to society. it is disgraceful. these baby boomers, they have all lost their mind. these are not children out there complaining. these are baby boomers. this is it. this is our last shot to do the right thing. so let's get our heads together and do the right thing for our children and grandchildren and our country. thank you and donald trump needs to be in jail, where he is going to wind up eventually. but he should be now. host: this is out of pittsburgh, line for democrats. caller: i would like to comment on donald trump. he is not an intellectual, but he is very smart. his father taught him how to

play america. donald trump front like the lady just said, his goal is money and power. he knows how to play americans because racism is an ingredient in america. he plays it. he is not necessarily a racist, but he plays racism and knows how to make white people feel comfortable in their racism. he really -- host: finish your comments. we are listening. caller: ok. he knows how to play america and his best caller is green. americans have been set up. many politicians have played the race card to get the vote. that is all they are concerned about commend themselves. i'm not a donald trump hater but

i observe how he plays the game. there has never been anything to anyone, any reason to get as much attention in the media is donald trump because he knows how to play america. that is all i have to say. host: five minutes left in this segment. time for a few more calls asking you about donald trump's words on the campaign trail that have generated a lot of attention recently, giving you a chance to comment on them. is the media overreacting? larry, republican, what do you think? caller: i just want to throw out i am 70 years old. i have never worried about world war iii until joe biden became president. i want to point out something about rhetoric. people always say stuff and then regret it. it just seems there are a lot of people that say stuff -- they know what they are saying and they wait for the pull back on

it and then they have to say what they were supposed to say but let me point out something. chuck schumer sat on the steps of the supreme court and threatened supreme court justices and two days later a guy showed up wanting to kill a supreme court justice. what is that? that a serious rhetoric, don't you think? thanks for taking my call. guest: palm beach florida, democrat, you are next. , -- caller: i am a 92-year-old man. i remember when trump's father talked to me. he was a fan of hitler's. he even said that dictatorship is not as bad as people thing. he said, one man rules.

instead of too many people trying to bring their opinion up. that is the same thing his son did. he believes dictatorship is the best thing for this country. sooner or later, when he becomes president, he will become a dictator. america, be aware. host: deerfield beach, florida, chris, independent. caller: thanks for taking my call. isn't donald trump a convicted sex offender? the united states as a country of immigrants. unless you have ancestors who were born in the united states, this was originally a dark and brown indigenous area and they were murdered off by the white people mostly from europe. donald trump is a hypocrite. wasn't his first wife from yugoslavia? he is an awful businessman. how any times did he file bankruptcy?

he has no knowledge on how to budget money. host: get to the controversy surrounding these recent statements. caller: it is disgusting what he said. dictator? if he loses the election again, he will claim it is rigged. didn't his mom have an accent? he hired a lot of immigrants to build his buildings. he is a dictator minus the tator . host: good morning. caller: regarding the controversy about the most recent statements, totally predictable that the washington media, followed by outlets like c-span, completely mistake his remarks and taken out of context. if you look two or three sentences before, it was clear

the they was referring to the democrats and the administration in charge and the term bloodstream, the idea that that is automatically a racial term is absurd and is just the paradigm that the press wants to throw out there because everything is about whipping up racial division in the country and painting trump as a racist. when i think of the bloodstream of this country, i think of things like respect for the law. i think of things like individual rights and an educated populace that understands the basis of our constitutional republic. all those things are being undermined when you have people that have no understanding of our system of government, are in no way that it, do not speak the language, are in no way prepared to participate. that is what is poisoning the bloodstream of our country with a complete lack of respect for our laws and the mob crossing the border to demand benefits.

host: time for one more call from linda in texas. are you with us? caller: yes. i think trump's rhetoric appeals to the last vestige of the angry white man who feels powerless in the world and is looking for somebody else to blame for his problems. that is one thing. another thing is that everybody forgets and keeps saying he was so good on the border. well, the fact remains that he had title 42 behind him that biden no longer has to be able to use in his tool bucket. title 42 blocked a lot of people from been able to come into this country. without trump's help. host: do you think there should

be a title 42 ask -- title 42-esque law that should give those powers back to people on the border? that is one of the options. caller: they have to have the same or similar reasons and they do not. host: we will talk more about the status of those negotiations later in the washington journal. that will do it for our first segment of our show this morning. next, we will talk about year end pulling on campaign 2024, president biden, and other issues facing the united states. we will be joined by cliff young and later erica york, a senior economist for the tax foundation, will join us to talk about tax revisions set to expire at the end of this year. stick around. we will be right back. ♪

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>> tell your smart speaker play c-span radio and listen to washington journal daily at 7 a.m. eastern. important congressional hearings and other public affairs throughout the day and weekdays at 5 p.m. and 9 p.m. eastern, catch washington today for a fast-paced report of the stories of the day. listen to c-span any time, tell your smart speaker play c-span radio. c-span, powered by radio -- by cable. >> "washington journal" continues. host: now a year end review, cliff young is back with us. he is taking the temperature of american on a variety of topics. let's start with america's views on president biden. there is a big story yesterday about president biden being increasingly frustrated about his dismal polling numbers. what do you know about bidens

approval ratings? guest: they are not good. they been hovering in the high 30's and low 40's. what we know based upon extreme polling is that a sitting president at a 40% approval rating has better than a 50-50 chance of winning the next election but that's the tipping point. his numbers have been recently below that. they are not good obviously and there's a reason to be concerned. host: his job approval over time provided by ipsos showing their polling since the beginning of the biden presidency. a moment back in september of 2021 alling view with withdrawal from afghanistan is the moment president biden was underwater in his job approval. how hard is it to come back up above water?

guest: it's always difficult and i would add that inflation had a huge impact on his numbers, something like 10 points or more. you can improve and presidents to improve but it's difficult. you never improve more than you decline. never expecting to be at the level he was 2.5 years ago in the mid to high 40's. you expect if the situation improves, his numbers would improve in part. host: what about the demographic breakdown? what can we find out about where president biden is doing well and where he needs to improve? guest: there are certain demographics that have been affected. less educated americans, younger americans are examples. they have been impacted by inflation and by his foreign policy as well especially when it comes to the israeli-must conflict. there are demographics that are not doing well at this point.

there are constituencies he needs in 2024 and there is a reason why his numbers are weaker than he would like. host: the place he's doing the best is with african americans, 59% approval rating. among white americans, 36%. guest: african americans have always been a key constituency from democrats. they are as well for biden. the numbers were in the high 60's before inflation took off there is still this in visionary fact in the numbers definitely, black americans are a key constituency and one where he needs to double down. host: talking about the end of your polling on issues in the united states. cliff young is joining us to talk through those numbers and take your calls. the phone lines are by political party, republicans, (202) 748-8001, democrats (202)

748-8000 independents (202) 748-8002 if you want to join the conversation. he is with us for the next 40 minutes. you brought up inflationary numbers, the most important problem facing numbers, 19% focusing on the economy and unemployment and jobs. it's the economy, economy economy. it took off before when inflation increased. people are concerned about their pocketbooks and there has been improvement in that in the economy as a number one issue has come down a bit but still people are worried. host: why do so many americans think the economy is so bad when inflation is come down, job creation remains strong, gas

prices are low, wages are up. why is still that feeling among people that the economy is bad? guest: there is a lagging indicator. public opinion is a lagging indicator of the economy. while the economy is improving, people don't feel it. it takes time to work itself through. the other point is inflation. maybe the rates have come down but the levels are still high and when you peel away the onion and look at the demographics, affluent americans -- less than affluent americans are still feeling the pinch. host: when do you expect to see the numbers turn? you say it's a lagging indicator so how long does it take to walk through that? guest: i would say by the second quarter we would expect an improvement in public opinion as it relates to the economy. there are other issues as well that are important. it takes time. host: the second quarter of 2024

is getting close to election day. things are getting tight there for a biden is looking for reelection it's cutting it close. ultimately, an improving economy in the second quarter has been shown to help the incumbent, one that's worsening has been shown to hurt the incumbent. it is the deal ultimately where the economy will be in the second order of 2024. host: we are talking about polling of americans on a variety of issues heading into an election year. we will start seeing the horse race numbers. that's especially in key states in the primaries. i never gets old - get polled, how do you decide who gets polled on these issues?

guest: we have different ways of getting to people. in some cases, we might knock on your door in other cases, we might send smell -- snail mail. in other cases, we might find you on the web. i would use the analogy of taking a sample of blood. it's not where you take the sample of blood, it's still blood. if we take a representative sample, it's like blood. samples are small. no more than 1000 individuals, maybe 2000 at the most and how many americans we have, $330 million or your chance of being selected is pretty low. host: we are talking about a representative sample and thousand people, doesn't have to be 500 democrats and 500 republicans? guest: we are talking representative of race and

ethnicity and political party. if you get those right, everything falls out. the right just vision of republicans and democrats. we don't typically poll on that variable. we look at demographics because we have a comparison with the u.s. census. that's the benchmark we used to ensure our samples. a topic that's in the news, the divide in this country right now on u.s. support for ukraine and israel funding support, how much support the united states is giving to those countries, what did you find? guest: if you look at the polling over all, there is lukewarm support for conflicts. what we find in this question is that americans are in favor of the status quo, not giving more or less.

that aligns with the other polling. the one caveat is republicans are much less likely to support the ukrainian effort than the israel-hamas effort. host: you can see that in this column here when it comes to the divide on u.s. involvement in ukraine. 44% of republicans say that the u.s. is giving too much support to ukraine in its war with russia. 20% of republicans say that the u.s. is giving too little support and 35% say it's about right. you can go through these charts and are they available on ipsos? guest: they are available on our website. host: it's a good time to ask your questions about polling. this is james up first out of mississippi, independent. caller: how are you doing?

i want to ask two specific questions. i'm going to say this first question -- the war with israel, when that were started on november 7, when they did it on november 7, they started right there talking about the war but i look at it like this, when they built the city in israel and they went into the synagogue and shut up those people in the arab synagogue, they told them, they said just wait, just wait, you will find out something in the media doesn't pick up on that, they go back to november the seven. host: he's talking about israel over the course of history before october 7 i believe is

what the viewer was referring to. how much polling did you do on u.s. support for israel, aid packages for israel before it ramped up after the terrorist attacks? guest: we have done quite a few polls on the subject matter. overall, americans have been supportive of aid to israel. this is -- we look at the timeline and there's been support for it. the caveat is the younger generation, gen z and millennials are much less supportive of it. it's not something specific to israel, they are less supportive of the military intervention and military support across the board. they are more inward looking but for the most part, the ballot questions related to israel, that's where the support is. host: is that something that younger generations always do or is that specific to this current younger generation?

guest: it's not something we find over time. if you look at vietnam and iraq one and two, younger people are more likely to support those interventions and wars in older people. this is something specific to younger people today. they are less inclined to support military intervention, military aid. they have a park -- foreign policy view but the priorities are different than past generations. host: why do you think that is when it comes to young people today? is it a function of recent history? guest: i think it's multifaceted. being a social media denizen, they see the world for what it is, it's flatter to them. i also think it's different from the complex of the last century. i think world war ii was

important in the imprinting future generations. i am gen x and i thought it was important and i think it's much less important for younger people in the united states today. host: this is joe, republican, go ahead. caller: yes, we talk about the economy and you keep saying inflation is down. inflation is not down. it goes from year-to-year. it's not down. since biden has been president, it's up 20%. they don't take into account food and energy. you go to the store and it's unbelievable. it's incredible. please explain how inflation is scored. guest: i think this is a very

typical reaction of americans. my point initially was that the rates are down area the inflation rate is not as high as it was and we are not at eight or 9%, we are down to three but that is not what's important to the average person. what's important is the level of prices, how much they pay at the pump, how much they pay at the store and that's high and we have to recognize and understand public a from that perspective that many americans feel the pinch and they have problems making ends meet and this inflationary effect is still there and affecting the numbers. host: credit card balances rose as inflation lingers. walk us through specifically when it comes to savings and

credit card balances? guest: we wanted to explain the angst. americans are surly because of the economy. what we want to explain is inflation is not at price levels but people have gone into more debt to be able to consume the basic things they need. this all adds to a sense of uncertainty of a future. if you have high credit card debt or you taken some equity out of your home, you are feeling less certain about what will happen in the future. host: what to people spend their money on? guest: it's a variety of things. they spend it on big-ticket items further homes, they spend it on cars as well but a lot of things spencer on the basic foodstuffs and basic necessities of the household. host: lori in north carolina, independent, good morning.

caller: this is my question -- hi, i am trying to understand how the pole people are asking their opinion. once they release their polls, they do another one, do they go back to the same people? i don't understand how that works. i'm an independent and i find it hard to believe that so many americans are to the rhetoric on the side of the right and i voted for joe in 2020. i don't understand her there clambering all over donald trump after all these anti-american comments. where are these people being polled and how are they found? guest: these are great

questions. these are methodology issues. we reach people in a variety of ways either by phone or knocking on the door and we can send mail and do it online. methodologies give an objective hand that can vary. sometimes we just to one subject and then we do across survey. sometimes we do a panel and we track americans'response over time. that's how we track elections. it's great to see -- to identify why people change their minds over time. it's about a broad toolbox we do

and depending on the objective, we will use one tool versus another. host: when are we more likely to see one versus the other? when the polls come out for the primaries, when do we see this? guest: they are probably doing it by telephone. they are probably linking it to the voter file. you do that because many times the primaries there is low turnout and it's hard to find those peoples you have to identify them. we will typically find in primaries for the elections our phone polls. host: because of the way communication goes these days, how has the cell phone changed your telephone interviews? we randomly generate numbers. there are methodologies to do that. we know at the area code is and

we know the what the prefix and suffix is. host: memphis, line for democrats. caller: good morning. we are calling from memphis tennessee and i want to say one thing, polls are nothing but disturbing information all americans to see the fact that the polarization and prejudice and racist and this is going to cause us to fall from grace. us being pulled, it does not help anything but it helps america find out and see how we stand in this world because these polls don't give the complete opinion of what people think. i am the same age as the president, i'm 81. i have seen the worst of the

worst. i've been to vietnam. as americans, we will reap what we've sown. we need to get out here together because we are turning into a third world country. host: does polling divide americans more? guest: i don't think so. i would suggest no. there's been studies whether it affects elections. i would double down and emphasize that in my opinion, polls are essential for democracy. they are away for the people to be heard between elections. they are a way to keep those in power accountable. they are one of the only continuing mechanisms that links those who govern to those who are governed. if we didn't have a pole, or if

we didn't have polls, we need them for a functioning democracy. host: middle village, new york, republican, good morning. caller: i just wanted to ask, how would the polling be with kennedy and trump on the same ticket? could they both be on the ticket? if they completed that test, they could stay there for more than four years? host: is that something you pulled on? guest: not specifically but the level of participation in this cycle is very high which suggests discontent with the two candidates at this point. while kennedy seems like he is on the polls from the right, it hurts trump a little bit more

than he hurts biden. the big take away is a lot of discontent out there about the system, there is believe the system is broken and not very energized by the two candidates we have in hand at this point. host: is it harder to pole a third-party candidate? the saying goes that they like the idea of a third option but once they get into the actual voting booth, they go back to republican or democrat. guest: they don't wreak havoc but we don't like them because people tend to overstate their intention to vote for them. they get into the polling booth and they wonder if they are going to throw away their vote. that's called strategic voting. it sort of makes polling on third candidates in the united states ineffective.

host: independent, your next. caller: good morning. can i talk to the gentleman, your guest? republican, democrat, do u.s. to the public about how they feel about certain things? you will always get the democrat sing the economy is great and republican say it's bad because it's all political. they are mixing political comments with economics. you've got republican and democrats every day. that's another question for c-span. when the representative asks the question, when he asked them what politics they are about, do you ask them whether they are republican or democrat? you will get the same answer. host: back to the methodology.

guest: we do ask what party you identify with. that's a very important explanatory variable for us to understand what's going on and understand differences and behaviors. he made another point which is important to emphasize. it's the confusion of the economic with the political. we see this in measures all the time now. you take your typical confidence indicators. they should be measuring the economy, they seem like they are measuring the economy and politics. when president biden won, republicans were confident in the economy to not being confident and vice versa. it makes it difficult to measure. i think it's important point he made. host: do you have to change your way of polling to account for that? guest: at this point it's baked into the results.

we have to recognize we have these sorts of problems. our consumer confidence indicators are not great at predicting the future as they were because of this problem. once again, it's a telltale sign. host: speaking of the future, another topic you pulled on, most americans feel technology is good

guest: the vast majority of americans are either red or purple. the point i was making is that there is a widespread belief that it does not work for the average person anymore. we are hearing that on the calls over and over again. we are right down there with journalists and some others. i think that shows that people are distrusting in the way things work.

mothers, small businesses -- that is a starting point. we can all say that we trust our mother. but i'm talking about institutions that are unifying. veterans are a unifying force. there are few and far between, at this point. lower than posters and lower than journalists. host: the supreme court was the one that held up the best of the other branches of government. the country is saying farewell to the first supreme court justice. what have we learned since sandra day o'connor's time? guest: one of the most

trustworthy institutions in the u.s. and it has really lost ground and become politicized. not as low as congress, as an example as a benchmark. host: any viewer of this program knows that the trust in congress is very low. when was the last time that congress was above water? guest: before 1948. congress has always been sort of in the crosshairs. everyone loves the congressperson but hates the other person's congressperson. that is sort of the dynamic. it is still lower than half, historically. it is in the teens, at this point. it has lost ground but it has

never been a place where he would hang your name up. host: there is a website, if you want to check out their work. republican mine, good morning. caller: good morning. i do not know why my name is bernie. that is unimportant. those who have -- they are ruining it. that is why inflation is so high. currency and the deficit hawks lie about how it works. they are backed by our taxes. host: mark in maryland, good

morning. caller: christmas, hanukkah, new year -- it is hard to disagree with. i just wish you the best. i had to be technical questions to help highlight issues. one is the station between creative action pulling and postelection polling. pre-election polling is, you're looking at attitudes and guessing at behavior. postelection is trying to get a sense of the behavior. even some budging going along there. also, pre-election in terms of demographics, there is some guesswork and guesswork is moderate. it is tailored to figuring out which demographics are going to

show up to vote. those two points, i think clarify some issues. guest: yes. exit polling, the day of bowling . i agree. they are always trying to predict what will happen. i think it is an educated guess, an idea about what will happen. holes a year out do not do well. there are timestamps there. exit polls are to understand what happens and to understand people's behaviors. really getting at what happens in the electoral cycle. host: you put a decent amount of stock in simples. this is a day they are waiting for votes to happen. guest: we use it afterwards.

we use it to understand what is happening, understanding what the values and beliefs are at play, which can explain the. he made a great point. the other difficult challenge that we have, we are not pulling on how the general population below because the general population does not the. any given day before an election, we do not know what that is. i think that was a great point and one of the big challenges of pulling. -- pulling. -- polling. host: how does that work?

do you get waved over and then you have to fill out a form? guest: sometimes we do a same-day pole -- poll. there are multiple ways of doing it. sometimes we call people at home after they have voted. there are multiple ways. host: to break on the independent line. caller: how are you all doing today? i have been thinking about a lot of this that you have been talking about. host: apologize for that. caller: how accurate have you been in the past? can we trust polling as it comes

out? you almost answered it earlier, but i would like a more direct answer to that. thank you. guest: that is a great question. we have been spot on. we have been off in others. it is a great example of us being off, let the rest of the market. i think we have a good record, but we spanned the gamut. we spend a lot of time reflecting on what happened and doing a postmortem, working with the market in general and our associations. we have to get that method right. we have to know that it is right after the fact. it is a good record. take 2016 as one. host: an independent voter often sends in questions via texts.

data mining and ai to determine persuadable voters in swing states and asking their opinion. guest: not specifically, but we do use qualitative methods. ai oriented methods. we use other sorts of methods as well to get at key drivers. in a broad sense, yes, we use multiple methods. host: one more question about the use of cell phones and calling. people like me, we never answer the cell phone if you are not on my call list. guest: we use mixed methods. we will use online, we might even knock on your door or we might send you a letter.

there are a multitude of ways to go after people specifically. especially when it comes to elections. host: we are heading into the election 2024 and the primary season. the public affairs president at ap-ipsos, we always appreciate your time. coming up this morning, and about 35 minutes, we will be talking with the tax foundation. up next, it is our open forum. any political issue that you want to talk about, you can do so. the numbers are on your screen. we will get to your calls right after the break. >> book tv every sunday on

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a grand prize of $5,000, and the opportunity to share an additional $50,000. the competition deadline is friday. for information, visit our website at studentcam.org. >> washington journal continues. host: it is time for our open forum. now is your time to call in. democrats at (202) 748-8000. independent at (202) 748-8002. the senate is aimed at 11:00 a.m. and you can watch that on c-span2. if you stay on c-span at 11:00, we will take you to the funeral services for the late justice sandra day o'connor.

a live shot of the cathedral. again, live coverage. a ceremony honoring sandra day o'connor was at the supreme court. here is justice sonja -- >> like countless other women, i will remember than the -- remember the day that sandra was nominated to become the first supreme court justice. i felt the gravity of her nomination. large -- they touted having just

one female partner. i do that sandra would open the door for women in the law and serve as an inspiration. later on, she would say that it was good to be the first, but i do not want to be the last. today, i know she is smiling. for so many others, sandra was a living example that women can take on any challenge and hold their own in spaces dominated by men, ed could do so with grace. an interviewer once asked sandra how she wanted to be remembered. she replied, here lies a good judge. yes, sandra, you will be

remembered that way. but a full epitaph would agree that here lies a good judge, wife, mother, grandmother, sister, friend, but above all else, a human being, extraordinary. host: speaking about sandra day o'connor on the supreme court yesterday. time for phone calls in our open forum. go ahead. caller: first time caller. can you hear me? i'm calling in regards to the trump rhetoric that you guys are saying he is responsible for, which is damage to the country.

on hannity, he was asked the question about dictatorship twice, and they only play the second clip when they asked him the second time. hopefully you do not cut me off because i have a few points to make. trump replied, like they are doing to me right now. the entire audience applauded, in support of him. they do not ever play that clip but they play the next one where he says, only on day one. it was a joke. the second time, he said poisoning the blood of america. he is talking about how biotin reversed the drug policies on day one.

he reversed them, opening the border, letting a whole surge of people from all over the world, not just mexico, but all over the world pour into the country. that is what he was referring to. they are poisoning the blood of our country. biotin and democrats will not do anything about closing the border. if you see any video, you can tell, very clear the, we are being invaded. trump knows that usa is a melting pot, so why, as a candidate, would he ever dare insult people like that? that is what you guys are interpreting. you are turning this into something it is not.

and i appreciate you letting me speak. host: first time caller will. you can call in once every 30 days. caller: good morning, sir. i would like to talk about the drone, baby, drill. the monthly oil production figures. biotin has produced more oil than anybody else during the trump administration. his numbers are higher than any numbers during trump. i want to know why people do not want alternative energy sources. we are americans.

go for innovation. i do not understand the whining and complaining about that. wall street drives the cost up. we are producing more oil than ever. that is all i have to say. caller: during 2023, the highest rate of inflation was about 9% and now it is 3% to 4%. some of the service providers are raising the rate. they do it in a very sneaky way.

gradually, they raise the others. finally, at the end of the year, the total amount that they raised the price was 30%. they are not paying attention. they pass it on back and let them respond to it. it is sad that nobody up there in the federal government or state government are paying attention to this. host: consumer protection when it comes to transportation. the transportation department by

southwest airlines. multiple violations of the law. establishing a fund to accommodate passengers affected by delays. problems began when freezing weather hit shortly before christmas last year. the airline ultimately canceled or delayed 16,000 500 flights, disrupting the travel plans. this is mike, pennsylvania, republican. good morning. caller: good morning. i believe -- i have been thinking about the way the world

has been going. i can pretty much guarantee that the republican party -- donald trump lost the election. i'm pretty sure it all started when roe v. wade -- the republican party did not take into consideration all the republican women. that is what started this whole mess. donald trump would have won the election and been president. he would be out of the picture altogether. if roe v. wade did not happen, he would not be in this pickle.

all this investigation, him going to jail -- none of that would have happened that is my opinion. host: good morning. caller: thank you. the u.s. is the number one producer of oil the world, period. currently producing 13.2 billion barrels of oil a day. 13.2 million barrels per day coming out of the u.s. please put it up. you will see the weekly outputs. host: i actually pulled that up and it is a little hard to see.

13 .2 million barrels a day. the production of crude oil is what you are looking for there. caller: that is correct. the keystone pipe is open. i live in kansas where they dumped 14,000 barrels of oil. and capitalism. we all love capitalism. but once gas prices go up, it does not make any sense. one last thing before i go. one person responsible for inflation is the fed chair. that is jerome powell. guess what party he belongs to. host: you tell me. caller: jerome powell was -- is

a staunch republican. we would have never had this. he blew it, but he is coming back now. but remember, everybody. -- deficits go up under republicans and down under democrats. we do better with money than the republicans. host: steve, independent. caller: ty have a question and a comment. -- i have a question and a comment. inquiries in immigrants of the border. i wonder how much of that is affected by the fact that every republican when they get before

a tv camera or microphone, a reporter to post to the world that we have open borders when we do not. -- a reporter declares to the world that we have open borders when we do not anybody who thinks trump is joking with his ridiculous rhetoric, either trump has a sick sense of humor or people who believe it is a joke have a sick sense of humor. thank you. host: a story in the wall street journal focusing on immigration at one border crossing in southern arizona. the story noting that arrests along the border have been averaging about 7000 a day. since october 1, agents in the tucson area have made more than 140,000 arrests, up from 50,000

arrests during the same time last year. that is in the wall street journal. carol, new york, republican. good morning. caller: i agreed with the new speaker of the house that we should not give aid to israel or ukraine. in israel, the people who think there is no genocide going on just filled their own people who have white flakes. that is not true. why do they call the terrorists? they have a right to rise up. they are freedom fighters. netanyahu is killing as many as he can with our insistence. has anyone heard of the american revolution? oppressed people can rise up. they are not terrorists. host: you are equating what happened on october 7 to the american revolution? caller: they have been oppressed

for years. why can't they uprise? they are playing on emotions, they raped women, did this and that. they are the oppressed people. host: greg, chicago, democrat. caller: we push people to the end of the line. eventually, that will not do. that happened in october. people got pushed to the end and pushed back. that is what netanyahu wanted. it is terrible. we are supposed to expect more from israel and america. we called it the trail of tears but it should have been called the interstate of indifference. nobody cared then and nobody cares now. when mandela came out of prison -- why -- israel? hear a former president invoking

the language of vermin and have an audience. on like it is acceptable, the problem is people cheering for a guy who -- we's people rooting for the mass murder of their neighbors. i am talking to you, holding my 11 month old son, my first child. 500 help people in the 1930's fled when they had kids and they were tired -- i wonder how people in the 1930's fled when they had kids and were exhausted. biden is a middle manager doing a crummy job. the presidency -- host: this is the story and today's new york times. most people approve of press -- disapprove of president biden on

gaza, and the way he is handling israel and palestine. a new poll asks do you approve of president biden's handling of the conflict? 57% saying they disapproved to 35 percent saying they approved. the other question they asked was who do you think we do a better job on the israel- palestine conflict, 46% said donald trump. 38% said joe biden. ronald, new hampshire, independent. caller: i am optimistic at this point. it might seem unusual that i am, but we have a country that just killed more than one million of its own citizens. we have an incumbent president who disenfranchised and entire state. when i go to vote in the primaries, my vote will not count because of what biden

said. we have a approval rating in history, 90% get reelected each year. that does not happen in a democracy. we are not in a democracy. the reason i am optimistic is a revolution is inevitable. it will happen. people should not be afraid of that. in the 21st century, almost all revolutions in developed countries are nonviolent, peaceful. people should be optimistic. after we get through this revolution, to imagine a country where everybody is treated equally and free to do what they want, where the government actually cares about the people, where politicians actually work in the interest of the country rather than their own. that can have -- can happen. we can do it. host: ronald, new hampshire.

this is any, kentucky -- this is annie, kentucky, republican. caller: christians and churches were bought with a price and that price is 501(c)(3) corporation. you are owned by the government through the tax code. the 501(c)(3) corporations have to follow the orders of the government. government tells might corporations that i cannot discriminate against gays and other races and things like that. you are a church and you cannot discriminate. if there is a homosexual couple in our church and they are qualified to be pastors or whatever, they will see the pounds -- the pants off of your

corporation. but the pope, if you live the -- realize, the fbi went into the catholic church and to get the conservatives out of the way so they could empty the church. they could implement gay marriage. host: rick in boston, democrat. caller: i would like to making comments about israel and the border . as far as the border is concerned, when donald trump first started running, when he was running against hillary clinton, he got up on that stage -- the one from florida talking about rapists and murderers from mexico. but none that stuff happened.

calling people rapists and murderers, that is why mexico is sending those people. we have to talk about the border now because of trump. host: negotiations continuing on a potential deal on immigration and border security, a deal that could unlock billions of dollars in funding for ukraine. negotiators have been working on that package. it was chuck schumer on the floor of the senate yesterday. this is what he had to say. >> i salute my colleagues and staff for their excellent work. i am encouraged by the progress we've made over the weekend, and i urge them to keep going. this is extremely difficult work. among the most difficult things we have done in recent emory. -- recent memory. everybody knows we need to fix our broken immigration system

but we cannot do so without compromising our boundaries. finding the middle ground is hard. both sides will have to make concessions and it will take more time to get it done, but we must succeed. democrats remain committed to working with republican counterparts to reach an agreement. host: the senate back in session at 11:00 a.m. today. you can watch gavel-to-gavel coverage on c-span two. this is rick, tennessee, independent. caller: we spoke about six weeks ago. having to, it seems like there is some topic i could call in and talk about for 30 minutes but i will try to stick to today's topics. then you have barreled davis on again? i loved listening to him. and if you ever get thomas sold

back, i think he is 93 but sharp and one of the most brilliant men in america. i wanted to your posters two questions -- how do they determine ethnicity? is that the honor system, self identification? how do they know who has voted when they contact them on the internet? i do not understand how they would know how to do that, how they could get an example by telephone or internet. quickly, a couple of points about rhetoric -- we talked about the media before. terms like vermin, i guess my pest control guys are fascist. did not realize that. but they will go back &

historical things and we are not supposed to make comparisons to nazis, but as a recent c-span guest said, except when it really applies. that is in the eye of the beholder. i wish someone could talk to trump's speech writers who came up with these phrases and see if they have any idea if that was intentional or if they knew what they were saying, let's remember that politicians make -- three quick examples that obama talking about people clinging to their religion and anticipated for other people. that is horrible rhetoric. and hillary clinton's famous "basket of deplorable's" somehow gets forgotten, but our current president, who infamously told a

black person, "come on, man. if you do not vote for me, you and black." that is a no-no, a white person telling a lap person what he or she cannot. let's go back to 2007. it is hard to say what joseph biden actually said when recommending barack obama. he said he was the first -- it is going back to shirley chisholm and jesse jackson. he was the first african-american. these are joe biden's words. to be bright and articulate and good-looking and clean. those are not code words.

ask any african-american what those words mean to them, that characterization. in defending it, he was called out immediately and said his mother used to talk about being clean as a whistle. that shows biden's character. he did not own up to it, i am from a former generation. we use words like that. yet the media does not bring things up. those things are swept under the rug. how he gets his support of people, that is overly racist. i am close to his age. i never said those things in high school. i knew better and so does he. people need to think before charging people with racism. look at the candidates. i voted for their own counsel in

2016. i would support nikki haley, i have for years. i am not a trump supporter by any means, but the media has taken sides. thanks for giving me the time. i have rambled on. host: rich in tennessee. time for a few more callers. this is manchester, connecticut, line for republicans. caller: hello. my name is long, by the way. i am glad -- three issues i would like to address. first is about the caller who said that under biden, oil production is up, that is true.

it is also true he promised to end fossil fuels with the inflation reduction act. less than 1% of the money is for developing new fossil fuels. the second -- and -- i am not against the renewable energy. i just want to survive without the people who cannot afford electric cars paying for it. biden is the first to say that the "transition" will cost trillions of dollars. it is not a cheap source of energy. there is no science out there, no technology that will ever give the world zero carbon

emissions. second thing i want to address is the middle east. palestine is not being occupied. or it is occupied the same way that japan or germany were occupied during the second world war. it is enemy territory that sends missiles to jewish populations, to jewish civilian populations. that part of the world has the ancestral land of judaism. with the jews, palestinians, arabs had been trying to do to israel is since 1948, they have protected israel and have lost every time.

their plan for jews is worse than the one hit letter __ hitler had for jews in germany. hitler wiped out 6 million jews. if israel is eliminated from the river to the sea, that will beat 9 million people eliminated. host:. time for a few more calls. hyper heights texas. russell, republican. caller: good morning. i wanted to call and say i was born and raised in california, democrat all my life until the last 8 to 10 years. people, believe your eyes, not your years.

and within texas now and i see it. i have been in arizona. i have seen it. california used to be good but now it is all one party. the reason i moved is because i was drafted there. i had the lazy eye. i got in there, -- you never get them because they do not believe in that. they only believe in taxes. i went to court for littering, got a $1000 fine and community service. got a slap on the hand. host: joe, maryland, democrat. good morning. joe, are you with us?

we are going to eddie in cincinnati, independent. caller: i just have a couple of points i would like to make. first, our politicians, i do not care if you are a democrat or a republican, when you get elected, you cannot get in there and do anything without help. she is the you are voters you can introduce legislation that you are not going to do anything by yourself. politicians, they always tell you a story instead of answering the question. they should be prompted to ask a question, then tell a story instead of telling a story first. that is how you tell a career politician.

they tell a story instead of answering your question. host: corpus christi, texas, steve, line for democrats. caller: you kept asking this question about right track, wrong track for the country. democrats, we are on the wrong track the huts of extremist abortion laws and voting rights in these red states. that is why we are on the wrong track. republican state it is because -- says it is because we have a democrat in office. you get a high number. often do not ask that question. they do not break that question down, so you get a high number of people saying we are on the wrong track.

we are on the wrong track in red states and we get the high number because of steps that they do -- from people of color. host: our last caller in this open forum was steve. in the last 40 minutes, we will be talking to erica york of the tax foundation, a discussion on end of the year tax provisions. we will have that discussion when we come back. ♪ >> c-span now is a free mobile app featuring your unfiltered view of what is happening in washington, live and on-demand. keep up with live streams of floor proceedings and hearings of the u.s. congress, the white

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discussion on tax policy. erica york is a senior economist at the tax foundation. before we get to the tax policy questions, remind viewers what the tax foundation is. guest: tax foundation is a nonpartisan nonprofit. we seek to inform taxpayers, policymakers and the media about the trade-off of tax policies. we provided data in research. we believe taxes should be simple, neutral, transparent and not stand in the way of rows and opportunity. host: taxfoundation. work is where viewers can go to check out your work. as we approach the end of the year, tax extenders always come up. remind viewers of what that is. guest: it is washington speak for temporary tax policy that

expires at the end of the year and congress attempts to expand for a longer period of time. it runs the gamut from deductions to specific, geographically-based tax provisions. some are supposed to be temporary but congress routinely decides to breathe life back into them for a temporary period, setting up a constant need to reauthorize and extend tax policies. host: what are some of the temporary provisions that congress is attempting to breathe life back into for another year? guest: there is three categories this year that lawmakers are discussing extensions for. the first is the perennial group of extenders. the last time congress acted on them was at the end of 2020.

since december 2021, about a dozen provisions have been expired. these are relatively small in the grand scheme of the tax code, things related to puerto rico, different territories, tax credit for mine safety training. all provisions that have not been acted upon. the second group is bigger. these are changes that were scheduled under the 2017 tax reform. scheduled business tax increases were scheduled to take place starting in 2022. for research and development, companies can no longer immediately deduct costs on r&d, including salaries that they pay researchers. instead of deducting that when the research happens, they have to do this over a longer period of time, which increases the tax

burden on r&d. that started in 2022, had bipartisan support to fix but has not gotten enough momentum. another change related to how businesses can take deductions for interest expenses. starting this year, another change is to help businesses deduct costs that they spend on machinery and equipment. the 20 tax law temporarily let them fully deduct the cost of a new machine. starting this year, they can only deduct 80% of the cost immediately and the rest over time. that bonus percentage will continue to phase out over the next several years. that is the third business tax change from the 2017 law that they might change and probably the january tax deal. the third and final set of provisions that is part of the

discussion this year is expired pandemic era relief, particularly the larger child tax credit we saw in 2021. there is some support from the white house and democrats to revive that in some fashion, probably not the full pandemic error extension but on a smaller scale. host: business provisions, child tax credit in that first tranche , is not likely to be included in one big deal or three different pieces? guest: the main negotiations are what to do with those big three business changes and the child tax credit. if we see an agreement on the central provisions, then additional provisions would get wrapped up into the same package. that would be the perennial extenders and receive momentum on that, we may see other

bipartisan tax policies come into the mix as well, things that are not typically in an extenders package but given the opportunity may ride along. host: the perennial extenders, the business tax provision, the child tax credit, if they are all past, how much money are we talking about? money that would not be collected in taxes? guest: the numbers tossed around is $100 billion. that would cover some retroactive relief, going back to 2022 and back to the getting of this year and essentially undoing changes as if they never happened, as well as providing the child tax credit extension for 2023. the thinking there is that when people start to file taxes early next year, they see the benefit and do not have to wait. the extension would likely last

through the end of 2025. that sets the tax extenders up with a broader implications from 2017 the bulk it made from individual income taxes are scheduled to expire as well. that $100 billion figure would be split evenly but anything else that gets wrapped up into the package would be an additional cost on top of that $100 billion. host: is that par for the course or an extenders deal at the end of a typical year, is that significantly higher than what we would see in a normal extenders negotiation? guest: more expensive just because of how big these provisions are. something like the child tax credit goes to millions of families. even small changes can become expensive, given the number of children in the u.s.

same with the business provisions. these are relatively broad provisions. they affect wide swaths of economic activity and industry, whether we are talking about r&d work machinery and equipment investment. in the past, we have seen an extenders package exceed $100 billion, but in that case, it was dealing with larger extensions of many provisions, providing five-year extensions, providing smaller extensions to a greater number of revisions, rather than $100 billion spent off of the village the short extension or provision like is under consideration this year. host: if you want to dive into any of these provisions or past extenders, now is a good time to call in. erica york's with the tax foundation.

republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. what are some temporary tax provisions that are definitely expiring when 2023 comes to a close? guest: this year, there are not too many scheduled to expire because they expired at the end of 2021. this brings up two points about extenders. one is the uncertainty it creates for people and businesses. if you are trying to plan business activity and unite know of the tax code you made your decision under a couple of years ago might be subject to tax code, that is for policy. it makes it difficult for taxpayers to understand their

obligations and incentives. it will not get much better if congress does temporarily breathe life to the provisions again. they are just kicking the can down the road. the package that is under debate right now would likely continue the policy through the end of 2025. we are not talking about a permanent solution to this collection of temporary taxes. we are talking about revisiting the discussion in a couple of years. cost is the primary reason. if you expand the tax provision for one or two years, it looks less expensive than if we say it is permanent. the challenge is how do we hate for these things -- pay for these things that we ostensibly want to be part of the tax code? host: 2025 is expected to be a big year on the tax policy front

, because a lot of the provisions of the tax cuts and jobs expired then. explain what we will be talking about in 2025. guest: the 2017 tax law reduced individual income taxes for taxpayers across the income spectrum. you most likely saw a tax rate it lowered rates, widened brackets, greatly expanded the standard deduction, which you can think of is the income you do not pay any taxes on. it doubled the child tax credit, increased refunds that households with low tax liability can receive. it also reduced the estate tax and made a number of simplifying changes to the individual or income tax system as it relates to alternative minimum tax and

itemized deduction. it was a large tax pack. it is scheduled to expire after the end of 2025. barring congressional action, most americans would wake up on january 1, 20 26, and face a higher tax bill. the conversation in 2025 will be what parts of this tax cut do we extend? do we pay for it this time? if so, how? deficits are our $2 trillion this year and only getting higher as the years go on. it makes the pay for side of any tax reform discussion in 2025 more salient, that there would be more pressure to pay for any tax relief provided. it will be a huge debate. virtually every part of the individual income tax system

will be subject to change. host: that says a lot right there. let me take some calls. this is wrong out of california -- ron out of california, republican. caller: one quick, about c-span before my tax comments -- i want to thank you, john, personally and greta and mimi for bringing some true excellence to the c-span family. i cannot think you guys enough for what you do. -- thank you guys enough for what you do. on taxes, taxing social security is about the worst thing you can imagine. i cannot imagine why we are not throwing these guys out on congress. how can you tax social security?

we already paid in for it. this happened in 2017, in the tax change, they took away the tax rebates. if you pay california state taxes or any state taxes, you should be able to write that off on your federal taxes. you do not get that anymore and. that is no good. there is simply the normal things to be changed. when they changed this tax code -- change this tax code in 2026, we need to get something back from it. if the guest could make a comment -- host: what do you want to pick up on? as it relates to the taxes on social security benefits, one glaring issue with that tax is it has not been indexed for inflation since 1993.

the brackets determining how much of your social security benefits are taxable and at what rate has not been updated decade. especially with the inflation in the last couple of years, it is important that lawmakers update that. on the deduction for state and local taxes, this is one of the reforms that the 2017 law implemented to offset the cost of lower taxes. i-8 limiting itemized deductions, it paid for some of the rate constant other tax cuts included in the bill. the effect of the is essentially limiting how much of the federal subsidies and states with high income residents to pay higher crackles received when you can write off the taxes that you pay for your state and local government on your federal return, that subsidizes higher

taxes at the state and local level. the 2017 tax that subsidy. people in those hypertext cases feel more their state and local burden. that can be addressed at the state local level. host: calhoun, georgia. anthony is a democrat. good morning. caller: my question relates to the impression that the tax system is for high income people who carry a smaller tax burden. when interest is allowed a tax break, i want her comments on that. the united states has a highly progressive income tax system.

if you look at data from the irs, the most recent data covering 2020, which was when the 2017 changes went into effect, the top 1% of taxpayers paid an average 26% of their income, while the bottom payers paid a rate that was less than 8 times that. if you look at tax shares, the top half of taxpayers pay about 97% of individual income taxes. the bottom pay about 3%. the income tax system is highly progressive, even given lower rates on things like capital gain income and carried interest. even with the current structure of the tax code, we have a highly progressive system the united states. host: minnesota, john,

republican. caller: i have seen something where institutional big banks are now exempt from paying taxes on it. wondering if that was true or not. guest: if they are organized as a corporation or partnership, they are going to pay taxes. one thing that did come to mind is an exemption in the tax credit. credit unions are exempt from paying corporate income tax, even though in many instances, they compete directly with banks, offer similar services. in that case, there is no neutrality in the tax code income that would seemingly need to be taxed is going untaxed. host: 15 minutes left in our

program. republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. i want to go back to one of the great tax fights in american history. it has been 250 years since the boston tea party. an article you wrote notes that that was actually over a taxi decrease, not an increase. guest: this is a common misunderstanding. you think of the boston tea party is a protest against taxes. while it is, the specific key act were actually -- tea act was actually reducing the tax burden on tea to give british companies an advantage selling into the colony.

the british east india company had a monopoly on selling tea in the colonies but merchants undercut that by selling -- smuggling tea across the border and selling it. it was causing significant stress on the british east india company. the tea act reduced the tax burden on non-smuggled tea to make it more competitive. that angered the local merchants, because it undercut their business model. they revolted and dumped 90,000 pounds of tea into the harbor in the story we are all familiar with. but i think we are not familiar with the specifics in that it was a tax cut rather than a tax hike. host: the rest is history. this is robert in new york,

democrat. caller: i understand that the tax system is progressive but i have a question on that. if you are a billionaire, you could basically make a loan from the bank based on your wealth and assets. you could possibly live off that loan for the given year, meaning you are not making any income. you could write off the interest that you made on that loan. you are not paying taxes at all. how is that progressive? guest: you are referring to a strategy that is sometimes

called borrow and died. he thought his wealthy people can take off -- take out a loan, live off the proceeds. when they pass away, because of a provision, their heirs would not have to pay taxes on the gains that accrued during the original owner's lifetime. we do not have data on the talent off in a situation like that occurs, -- on how often a situation like that occurs, but we have data that shows given current rates, we have a progressive system in which the higher income a person is, the higher their tax burden. we could look at specific reforms that would get rid of strategies like that that are possible under the current tax code, but even given the structure of the current tax system, we would desk still have

a progressive system today where billionaires, people at the top pay higher rates. something that people may not realize is that over the past couple of decades, we have seen a proliferation of refundable tax credit. that is the nature tax credits -- major tax credits are earned income and child tax credits. they can also somebody owes so that they receive more back than they paid in. for about the bottom 10%, sometimes the bottom 20%, it will actually be a negative tax rate because they are receiving more from the tax system than they paid in. host: in recent years, viewers have become familiar with political battles over additional funding or the irs

for enforcement. did your foundation take a position on whether additional money for the irs was good or bad? guest: as an educational nonprofit, we do not take official policies on specific legislation but we do highlight trade-offs of legislation. one thing we pointed out about the increased in funding is that the bulk of it has gone to enforcement to increase audits but not much to improving customer service. the irs has said it will burn through those increased funds for customer service in the next couple of years. a stable source of funding for customer service so that people are there at the irs to answer phones, process the backlog of tax returns we saw after the pandemic, so that the irs has the stability it needs in its

budget to make long-standing improvements, that would be more important than devoting the bulk of the money to more audits. another critical element missing from the enforcement and audit side is a similar tax system encourages more complaints on the front end and it is simple for taxpayers to understand what they owe and there are not a lot of opportunities for taking advantage of visions in the tax code it makes enforcement easier. anytime we are talking about enforcement and complaints, we should also just talk about the sheer complexity of the tax system and how some of buying it would be company three to efforts to improve compliance and enforcement. host: will we ever get to the point where we can do our taxes on a postcard? guest: i do not think that is

will the stick. given the complexity of income, the different ways people are income, the gig economy, entrepreneurs, small businesses, even doing business in a globalized economy, it gets complicated but the tax system could be simpler. i do not think a postcard is realistic. there are examples internationally of tax systems where on average it takes taxpayers just three minutes to file. one system we have studied a lot is estonia. we have stimulated what it would look like the u.s. if we were to adopt that system. it is drastically different from the income tax we have today. it taxes business profits in a different way, individual income in a different way.

but if we adopted that system in the u.s., we have found it when boost gdp by more than 2% and save billions of dollars a year in compliance costs. while that politically is not on the table right now in reform debates, it would be possible to adopt a simpler system. it would require giving up a lot of things we are used to them in the tax code, though. host: kentucky, darrell, republican. caller: the caller is right about the tax return. people file for income taxes. nobody has mentioned hunter biden. he never filed his income taxes at all. someone paid his income tax return. he has now paid his income taxes

. he had proof that he did not pay his income taxes because he got money from china and ukraine. host: erica york, have you studied the case much? guest: i have not. host: joe, virginia, independent. caller: i would like to see if i can get your best -- guest back to the kerry interest rate. the answer to that question in my mind is not that we have a progressive tax system. i know we do. but do we have a fair tax system? from the answers that your guest provided, i assume she is happy with the fact that hedge fund managers pay a lower tax rate than their secretaries.

i guess that is fine. should they be treated the way they are being treated with a special lower tax rate? host: let me pause and let erica york restart. -- respond. guest: the question is whether hedge fund managers should pay capital gains rates are ordinary rates could it depends on whether you think it is capital income labor income. capital income, although it is tactically capital gains rates, it also faces the corporate income tax. when you are looking at the full tax burden capital in tom, you have to look at the full burden and what is paid at the individual level. today, the kerry interest provision is relatively small. i have not looked at our scoring of it recently, but we have

found how much revenue would be raised by taxing it is ordinary income. we have a publication called the options guide where we modeled the effective taxing kerry interest as ordinary income. cleveland raised several billion dollars but not dramatically change tax rates that people face. it would change rates for people who earn kerry interest but that is a relatively small group of people. host: taxfoundation.org disd website. you also find an article about how to rein in the national debt. we approach $34 trillion in debt. what is the best way to rein it in. guest: p written and developed countries that have faced similar that issue are

trajectories where data is projected to rise. we have found the most successful debt consolidation, editing your net under control, and maybe starting to pay it down, most successful debt consolidation happened primarily on reigning in spending. to a lesser extent, they may rely on higher revenue, but it is important which revenues they rely on. we have seen countries that have raised economically harmful taxes to pay down their debt. they are shooting themselves in the foot. though they are getting higher revenues, business investment shrinks. that does not put them on a sustainable path. if they look at less economically harmful taxes,

something like a consumption tax, most countries have a value added tax, which does not create as big of a drag on economic activity, that is a better way to raise taxes on these to pay down debt. but the bigger issue is to get the spending side of the equation under control and supplement that with less economically harmful taxes. host: can you explain what a value-added tax would do? guest: it is similar to a sales tax. rather than the consumer paying the tax at retail checkout, that tax would be collected along the value chain. so if you think about each step of production, the farmer grows the grain, sells it to a co-op, they would pay a value added tax on the value of the grain.

they get sold to a baker. at each step, the additional amount of tax on the value added would be levied on the producers. it is collected along the value chain rather at the final sale. but it is peyton of the same tax base. -- paid on the same tax base. that is how most countries with a consumption tax do it. it has administrative advantages, often higher compliance because you have an audit trail along the production chain. host: a couple of minutes left with erica york of the tax foundation. she is a senior economist research manager for federal tax policy there. nicholas, huntington beach, california. what is your question? caller: nine question is -- my

question is we have 70 highest taxes in california, especially property taxes, and some of the highest homeless count. host: you still there? i think we lost the caller. erica york, just about a minute and a half left. we talked about tax extenders. what else should we know about? guest: we have seeing a bit of tax policy talk on the campaign trail heading into the 2024 election. we have a presidential tax tracker where we are keeping track of everything every candidate says on tax policy the bigger direction of what is going to happen at the end of 2025 when individual income taxes are scheduled to got significantly on the vast

majority of americans, the outcome of those debates hinges on what happens in the 2024 elections. we are keeping close track of what people are saying about taxes, what that means for the direction of the tax code and what that means for americans and the taxes that they pay. it will be a to mulch and is here in 2025 -- h mulch west year in 2025 -- ahost: that wilr program today, and we will be back here at 4:00 p.m. pacific. for -- in the meantime, have a good tuesday. ♪ [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2023] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]