journal, your calls and comments live, and then we talk about the implication of a colorado supreme court decision to keep former president trump off the ballot with university of baltimore law professor kimberly wehle. in lindsay rosa discusses the 50th anniversary of the endangered species act. "washington journal" starts now. host: good morning. as we near the end of the year we are taking stock of the untry's economic mood. beyond the indicators such as inflation and unemployment, we want to know how you are feeling personally about the economy.

are you optimistic or pessimistic? if you're optimistic call (202) 748-8000. pessimistic (202) 748-8001. you can text us at (202) 748-8903. let us know your first name. welcome to today's washington journal. let's start with a couple of polls that cbs news did. here is the headline. cbs news poll finds americans feel inflation impact on living standards and opportunities. this question asks what was the most difficult economic time for the u.s. and here you can see it was asked about the covid shut down between 2020 and 2021, the

post-pandemic, the great recession, and cash shortages and inflation in the 1970's. it breaks it down by age. this is overall. you can see the highest numbers is the covid shut down of 2020 to 2021. this question asks compared to your parents, is your standard of living better, the same, or worse? the largest group saying worse at 46%. better is 33%, and the same at 21%. interesting to find out what you are feeling about that and how you're feeling about the economy and your situation. the numbers are on your screen. optimistic, (202) 748-8000. pessimistic, (202) 748-8001.

let's look at jerome powell who announced he would keep interest rates steady about the surprises he found in the economy. [video clip] >> casters were broadly forecasting a recession for this year. not only did that not happen, that includes fed forecasters and essentially all forecasters. a very high percentage of forecasters were expecting week growth. not only did that not happen, we had a strong year. that was a combination of demands on the supply side. this was the year when labor force participation picked up, where immigration picked up, where distortions from supply and demand from the pandemic really begin to unwind. we had significant supply-side gains with strong demand and we got what looks like a 2.5% growth year at a time when

potential growth this year might have been higher than that because of the supply-side. that was a surprise to just about everybody. i think the inflation forecast is roughly what people wrote down a year ago but in a different setting and i would say the labor market has also been better. if you look at the sep from a year ago there was a significant increase in unemployment that do not really happen. we are still at 3.7%. we have seen strong growth, still a tight labor market but one coming back into balance with the swift support from the supply-side. that is what we see and that combination was not anticipated broadly. host: that was the fed chair jerome powell and here is the headline from the washington post.

everyone expected a recession. after pressure over everything from sky high inflation to a looming recession the head of the federal reserve was asked what he does for fun and says for me "big party, big party, this is really as fun as it gets. this is really as good as it gets." for an official who sticks to a tight script the mood was jubilant but it also speaks to a leader who feels finally free to crack a joke. as 2023 winds to a close pal and his colleagues are far from declaring victory on inflation. they cautioned their actions could be thwarted by any number of threats from more the middle east to the china economic slowdown. americans are upset about the

cost of groceries and other basics. if we take a look about what we are getting on social media, mike says this on facebook. pessimistic. our debt is rising at the outlook cannot be good. flooding the country with unskilled laborers is not good for the economy. we will get back to that but first we will go to your calls. steve in florida. good morning. caller: i am very optimistic about our economy. the stock market is going through the roof. these people that are coming across the border, i say put them to work, make them pay taxes, break down our debt. when biden took over the country he had a lot of work to do. we are seeing the results. i am looking forward to 2024.

i believe the wages are going up. food prices are going down. gas prices are going down. i am optimistic for 2024 and our future for this country. i am a former marine. i have seen us go a trillion dollars in debt over the trump administration -- i've seen us go $8 trillion in debt over the trump administration and now we are starting to bring that debt down. i believe in supporting ukraine and i believe in supporting israel. however, i believe israel needs to put a stop to what they are doing. host: i want to ask you one of the questions cbs news asked in a poll, which is compared your apparent standard of living is your standard of living at her, the same, or worse? are you better off than your parents or worse off? caller: back in my parent's days

, a loaf of bread was $.15. i am 74 years old. gasoline was $.17 a gallon. inflation has been going on for years and years. host: obviously there wages were much lower than they are today. caller: absolutely. host: what was your question -- caller: what was your question? host: it is ok. you answered it. daniel in illinois. go ahead. we are listening. caller: i am very optimistic about the economy. if you compare it to other industrialized countries in the world we have the lowest inflation, the lowest unemployment. like the previous gentleman said , the stock market is doing very well. investment is coming back to america.

countries all over the world are looking to get back into the american economy. i am very optimistic. let's take a look at what -- host: let's take a look at what janet yellen said. she outlined factors that helped lower inflation without weakening the economy. [video clip] >> i think there were significant supply disturbances that were caused by the pandemic. shortages, big shifts in the structure of demand that went to sectors like automobiles that were faced with enormous excess demand, shortages of chips, shipping, huge increase in shipping costs from asia.

supply disruptions have gradually come down up i cannot say exactly how much that has contributed to lower inflation, i think that has been a factor. you also had enormous disruption in the labor market with a very significant number of people laid off or losing their jobs who need to find new work. i think that led to disruptions in the labor market. they are also gradually healing. the rate of unemployment is coming down as people settle into new jobs. that is a very disruptive process we saw. not only desperation on the part of firms as the economy picked up and they were desperately trying to add to their

workforce, but a mismatch of workers and firms that one people to quit their jobs, look for other work until they settled into a good match. quits for unusually high, job openings were high, wage increases were high as the labor market had been so disrupted. now if you look at it, job openings are down substantially. i do not mean by the levels that are worrisome low, but normal good labor market pre-pandemic levels. host: the treasury from earlier this month. we are taking your calls. anne in easton, maryland. good morning. caller: i am pessimistic because we have to realize the terms inflation and unemployment are

defined by the government. as i understand it inflation measurement does not include food prices and fuel prices and i also know that unemployment is defined by somebody who is actually receiving unemployment. many people have exceeded the number of weeks and are still unemployed. i asked people to take a look at those definitions. thank you. host: kimberly is in north las vegas. good morning. caller: good morning. i am optimistic. i just heard the lady before me. the thing is i know i am better off than my parents. i work in a job that is totally affected by interest rates. this is the year i started my company. the thing is when rates are high like this, this is the time i

felt i need to start my own company. it is a good thing. i am very optimistic about what is going to happen in the future. food prices. from what i am understanding, if you go to the store and pull a bag of chips off the rack, it will be six dollars. you have to find deals. there are deals all around. people are lazy. they do not want to look. i am paying pre-much the same thing as i paid pre-pandemic for most things. host: how are you finding those deals on food? are you shopping in different places? are you waiting for sales? caller: exactly. i am waiting for sales. i will tell my kids, they say i want a certain thing right now,

i will say we will get something else that is on sale and when i see it we stock up. i do stock up. i do not have a pantry full of chips or something like that, but i do have a lot of chips. we do stock up. when i see a sale i do take advantage of it. that is another thing where i see toilet paper on sale, i go ahead and i do have the finances to go ahead and stock up. i am not buying it on-and-off time. i catch a lot of sales. i look at the sales paper every week. i do my digital coupons, i do all of that because back in 2008 when it hit us again in the industry i am in, we took a hit. me and my husband took a hit.

we have learned. we are older. i am older. the thing is i have learned, and most people should have learned that this is cyclical and you start looking for sales. you cannot just go to the store and grab something off the rack and start buying. you have to look. i think it is great. not everything is great but i am very optimistic about the future. host: thank you. john in staten island, new york. what do you think? caller: i am pessimistic. i wanted to make a suggestion. you should have an economist talking about the economy. no offense. the health care system in the

united states is very expensive. we do not cover everybody. have somebody on to talk about how other countries do with that problem. canada has the single-payer system. host: you do. you can always look at our video library at c-span.org or things you might be specifically interested in. how are you doing? is health care costs harder for you? how are you doing? caller: it is harder for me. i do not have health care. i have some problems. host: you're paying for everything out of pocket? caller: i am not paying for anything. i do not go to the doctor, i have some health problems by cannot afford it. we have a very low minimum wage. we have very high debt and i would say that in other

countries the very wealthy subsidize the poor. it seems like in this country the poor and middle-class subsidize the wealthy. host: there was a cbs poll that asked this question. in today's economy who has a chance to get ahead? it said from 2017, everyone was 43%. now that has dropped to 36%. the people saying that just a few at the top have a chance to get ahead went from 53% in 2017 to 64% now. do you agree with that? would you put it everyone or just a few at the top? caller: i have read that compared to other countries it is much harder in this country to move from one percentile -- you are in the bottom percentile to the middle to the top.

it is hard to move from the low class to middle class or the middle class to the upper-class compared to some european countries. host: michael is in four oaks, north carolina. good morning. caller: good morning. host: what do you think? caller: i think everything is doing much better than we can expect after a horrible pandemic where slaughterhouses and meat processing plants were completely closed down. we had horrible bottlenecks. i think both the previous and current administrations did a great job with the covid-19 virus. i would like to wish everyone in the united states a merry christmas. i really think the stock market has taken off once again.

it is like pulling a light switch. it is well over 37,000 points for the dow. host: do you own stocks? caller: know, but someone in my family does. host: merry christmas to you, to. mike is next in norwalk, ohio. caller: good morning and merry christmas. the guy from new york hit the nail right on the head. how is obamacare working for us? as far as janet yellen, trotting her out and saying things are doing better, isn't she the one who said we would have transitional inflation? what happened? a year and a half. come on. do you think we are doing better? we may be doing better because we are not at the bottom of the bucket. when i go to the store i am

still spending double what i was when trump was in. gas is coming down but it is still ridiculous. we should start drilling on our own oil, that way we do not have to buy other countries oil. everyone says everything is doing fine. biden has everything under control. have you even watched this guy make a speech? come on, people. you have optimism and pessimistic, you should have is everything right and wrong. i believe everything is still wrong and the only way things will change is if we get trump back in there. i was doing a lot better when trump was in there instead of obama roles in there and screws everything up. host: speaking of the former president, here he is at a campaign event in new hampshire criticizing the bite administrations economic policy. [video clip] >> review better off five years

ago are better off today? there is no contest. nobody would say today. what a difference a president can make. it does make a big difference. if you go back seven or eight years, it makes a tremendous difference. since joe biden took over we have had a three year inflation date of over 20%. under my leadership inflation was nonexistent. we had gasoline at $1.87. after three years of bidenomics, they call it bidenomics from hell, the average mortgage payment has gone to $3322 today but you cannot get the money so it does not matter. biden's antlers are making the

banks richer and making you poor. they handlers are making the banks rich and the banks discriminate against conservatives, they discriminate against religion because they are afraid of the radical left. i think the bank regulators are doing a big number because they are not allowed to do business with you and we will get those banks when we get in office. we will get them. nobody knows the banking industry better than me. i am not going to let them take advantage of you any longer. they have taken advantage. what they do to the people in this room and millions of others is a disgrace. we will end it. joe biden and the democratic party are incapable of solving any problems. they have not solved anything. they have only created problems. as long as joe biden is in the white house, the american dream is dead. host: we want to know what you

think about that. are you feeling optimistic or pessimistic? here is eugene on facebook who says very optimistic. "ifid is reelected and his inastructure program is implemented." and we got a text from important organ. -- from portland, oregon. if donald wins, pessimistic, if joe wins, very optimisc. dev posted this on x. veryptimistic. union strong. fox watchers will be pessimistic. allie says very optimistic. all you have to do is look at the data from all other developed countries and see how they trail the u.s. rich is calling from pennsylvania. good morning. caller: i am confident things will get better. i know inflation has increased

-- has decreased. things are difficult but things will get better and i think we will avoid a recession. host: let me ask you one of the questions from the cbs poll. is your income keeping up with inflation? caller: i am budgeting right and jobs are plentiful right now. i'm a young guy so i'm not spending too much on mortgages. host: but you are working? caller: i am keeping up pretty well right now with my costs. i am pretty confident i am holding things together. host: ok. david in north carolina. why are you pessimistic? caller: good morning. i am pessimistic because of the big lie about inflation. i am a senior collecting social security.

in 2023 the social security recipients got an increase of between 8% and 9%. this year we are getting an increase of over 3% based on the consumer price index. that means these layers of inflation are not going away. it is the big lie that people are being fed about inflation going down. it is going up. the 9% from last year is still there, now we have 3% on top of that. this is all at the foot of this administration, whose policies are driving prices through the roof. people think inflation is going down yet they still say they go shopping and they see the prices at the grocery store, which have not -- which have far exceeded the raises for us seniors and our social security increases. that is the big lie and people start getting informed about

what we are being fed about this. merry christmas to you and the country. host: merry christmas. before you go. have you made adjustments because the social security increases were not as high as you would expect? caller: i am very fortunate in my family is very fortunate, i had a good life, a good living. i am not worried about that. i am worried for other people that have not been as blessed as my family has been. host: gary in fort worth, texas. good morning. caller: first of all i want to say merry christmas and you are doing a great job today. three quick footnotes before i start. about four or five callers previously, i am a republican, trump says everyone believes the

economy is getting better, i do not leave wife. biden is doing -- i do not know what. biden is doing a great job. he is not my president but i will vote for him next time. it is political. when you played the trip -- when he played the clip of trump's and he went into biden destroyed the economy and obamacare of all of this. all of this will be a political legal issue coming in 2024 it will affect all of our pocketbooks. i am a hospital director. i have never had so many applications that we have hired. we have opened four new hospitals hunter biden. -- hospitals under biden. we were going into bankruptcy prior to biden coming in. what i believe is the judicial system will affect all of our economies, all of our

pocketbooks. look at what happened in michigan. we had another phone call where trump tried to influence the dual -- tried to influence the election in michigan. it is 11 minutes long. host: how is that impacting the economy? caller: is impacting the economy because of the republicans get back in power they will open up all of these policies that are causing trickle-down economics which i know did not work for me as a republican. i have more taxes, i had to pay more. i cannot hire people, people do not want to work. when you start talking about the policy of trickle-down economics it does not work. you have to open the economy up. that is what biden has done.

trump, i think his policies were decent. he was not disciplined. the same way he is not disciplined legally, criminally, all of the things he is doing. it is affecting not only our pocketbooks, it is affecting our children's behavior, the schools. i am shocked at ronna mcdaniel. i love this woman. i cannot believe the phone call she was on trying to overthrow the election. i am completely shocked. i did not think this behavior would come from her. can they arrest her? it is serious. all of this has an effect on the economy. when people feel like the country is not moving forward with positive people and people who care about us as individuals to write the economic policies, when they are influenced by criminal behavior, then people step out like i do and say i do

not know what kind of policies people will write. if they are involving criminal behavior i'm not spending any money. i am not going to spend any money when these people are running policies that are affecting not only my hospital, my community, everyone that is involved. therefore republicans have a duty to go out and vote for the democratic people in charge. host: gary did mention rhoda mcdaniel, the chair of the rnc. i want to show you what she wrote in an op-ed about the economy. she said "joe biden could any more out of touch. he spent thanksgiving in nantucket where the median home price is $5 million at lavish home of one of his llnaire donors. he is so disconnected from yday ameri he continues to brag the effects of mics as if americans do

not feel the pain of rising unfortunately, more reports are showing it could onlworse from here." the 12 days of christmas just hit a record high. the cost of a christmas tree up 10%. more than one in three americans are skipping christmas presents due to inflation concerns. madeline is feeling pessimistic in virginia. good morning. caller: morning. first i would like to say i am scared to death of the people walking across the border that will eventually want to kill all of us americans. that is my biggest fear. my biggest problem today is i went to pick up my prescriptions for 90 days and my pills for

diabetic, $345. i cannot buy it. host: has it gone up or has it always been that much? caller: it was $140 the last 90 days. when i went to get it for this 90 days it was $345. host: are you on medicare? caller: i am on medicare and i have my supplement, which has always paid for everything because i pay out $540 a month for medical insurance just so i do not have to pay out-of-pocket. host: cornell in new jersey. why are you optimistic? caller: i am optimistic because in spite of the republicans not having an agenda in their sole

purpose is to shut the government down and cause disruption, we are moving forward. people speaking about obamacare, the fact of the matter is there were numerous hearings on obamacare and a lot of the things that could have benefited us were cut out to appease the republicans concerns. yet not one republican voted for obamacare. yet, for years they have said we are going to get rid of obamacare. they have no anything to replace it with. as far as the way wages and

everything is, when donald trump's 2 trillion dollar tax credit to the wealthiest americans, 83%, went to the top 1%, since donald trump i am having to pay back at tax time where as historically i never had to pay. the bottom line is people that are constantly saying bring trump back. you have a man who is a sore loser. i will not name call because that is a republican standing point to be name-calling and bullying. host: i wanted to ask you since you talk about health care, are you on obamacare? caller: now. -- no. no.

host: how are you feeling about next year economically? revealing things will get better or worse? the same? caller: i am optimistic because even the gentleman earlier that said about his parents and wages were a lot lower. you could survive on one income at one time. women did not have to work. today you need two or three people, two or three jobs to stay afloat. republican policies. the wealthiest americans are getting wealthier since ronald reagan and his unionbusting. the unions created the middle

class. unions are at the lowest point with the right to work laws. i am optimistic because this is the thing. the republicans have no agenda. host: we got that point. california. how are you feeling? caller: i am feeling very amused. for everyone who is talking about republican and democrat and all of this, the economy has not changed. gas went down and bread went up. obamacare, i was on obamacare, i needed a hip replacement. my premium was $1049. obamacare covered $71. guess what, when i came to

income tax time they wanted the $71 back for the six months that i was on it. then they increased it for the next month. there is so much free money rolling around, everyone talking about this -- you have a criminal running for a free country. this dude actually said i am down with putin and this is how you're supposed to run a country. talking about the economics. he set up front i do not pay taxes. those who do are stupid. do not blame me. you have a criminal running. someone i want to touch on, the guy who said, this is a lie. there is no difference in economics. recession is influx big time. you're talking about jobs. a lot of jobs and nobody is trying to work them.

everybody wants to be remote. everybody wants to work remote and do nothing because it helps the economy, the employer's. the young ones talking about rent, you do not have to worry about mortgage. you cannot even pay rent. host: how are you doing besides the health problems. are you able to pay mortgage or your rent? how are you feeling on that? caller: what i am feeling is the reality is that mortgage, rent, everything is not benefiting anyone here that is working, the middle class. someone said about the gap that is growing. if i decide i have mental problems and i do not want to work, i can get free everything, free medical, free dental, free housing.

homelessness is out of control. i am optimistic about what? here you have a criminal running for office. host: we got that. let's take a look at what president biden said. he was in milwaukee talking about what his administration has done for small businesses and the economy overall. [video clip] >> everything benefits. everyone benefits. it is not a joke. it gives hopes. since kamala harris and i entered office americans have filed 15 million new applications to start a new business. 15 million. lacked business ownership in over 30 years -- black business ownership in over 30 years.

black wealth is up 60% since the pandemic. i mean this from the bottom of my heart. we are just getting started. so many of you had the vision and took the risk and you bet on yourselves. together we are transforming the economy by investing in all of america, and all of america. i said if i was elected i would represent everyone. no matter what color the state was. think of all of the businesses that you know about throughout the midwest, back my way as well that closed down because you had corporations decide they get cheaper labor across state if they move somewhere else so they sent jobs overseas and brought the product back home and we changed that to supply chain. we are having jobs here and sending product overseas.

[applause] from the time i got involved in public life, i've only been around a few years. [laughter] bless me, father. [laughter] we do it by building the economy from the middle out and top up. nonelectrical down from my -- not a lot trickled down from my dad's table. the poor have a shot in the middle class does well. the middle class does well and we all do well. host: here is a post we got on x says "rich people getting fatter, the rest are scraping pennies for food. it is not biden, he is doing t. it is the tax code reagan forced on us. it would take a super majority

to put it back where it was. everyone prospered." ruth sayer on x -- truth sayer on xay "we continue to live within our means and save at we can for retirement." randy says "both of my mid-30-year-old children are working well. the outlook for michigan looks good. biden's economic strategy is starting to work." will go to jasper in memphis, tennessee. why are you optimistic? caller: i am very optimistic about the economy moving forward. when trump, in he is saying about his economy. i want the republicans to know

when donald trump came in gas was $1.35 a gallon and people did good. then he went in and passed his tax cut and know you have to pay for the money he took out of the economy. banks will get higher. any time progressives want to give everybody a pay rage -- give everybody a pay raise, guess who stops it, the republican party stops it. every time obama try to do something with immigration, mitch mcconnell would stop it. i am from tennessee. guys flying the rebel flags and f joe biden. they're having a hard time in their voting against their own selves. host: how are you doing? caller: i am retired and i am 70 years old and i am still working. there are plenty of jobs.

a lot of these worldwide folks do not want to work because it -- a lot of these rural white folks do not want to work because they do not want anyone black or female telling them what to do. that is the problem in tennessee. biden has pipelines going in. he has road construction going in. you can work for a decent wage. tennessee did not want to do nothing. these people in tennessee, especially in the rural, they are a sorry bunch of people. these republican women calling about they are doing bad, i guess so because you have to pay for your health care they because you voted against people that cut in half your health care. you have to pay for it now. host: darrell is in michigan.

why are you pessimistic? caller: i am pessimistic for a different reason than what people are talking about. i don't think we should count the economic statistics as that important compared to the psyche of the american people. for many years they ask people do you think we are on the right road or the bat road and many more people are saying we are on the wrong road than the positive wrote. -- in the positive road. we have hundreds of thousands of people living on the streets in california. we have a $33 trillion deficit which we have stolen from our children and grandchildren who will live a lower standard of living because they have to pay off the debt we have already spent.

we have two wars going on in the world, dangerous wars in dangerous parts of the world. we have a population of 1.4 billion chinese, no matter how we work it out, 330 million americans not keep up with 1.4 billion chinese for the next 30 years. we will pay dearly for a lot of things. even as we sit around the table and we talk about our sons and daughters who are doing very well, we have all of these things in the background we are so concerned about and should be. the time will, we will say will we socially adjust to two family hierarchies -- both putting their children into schools. this has never happened before.

our whole society is changing. if we add up all the psychic factors knowing at the underside of the united states -- whether the dow jones goes up 20 or 30 points is not so critical. we now have annnced that 1% of the world owns 50% of the wealth. it is unbelievable. it is very dangerous. host: let's take a look at what republican presidential candidate nikki haley said. she was on a local news program in iowa to talk about how not only democrats but also republicans are responsible for the policies that impact the economy. [video clip] >> if you look at the fact we are $34 trillion in debt. the last three presidents raised our debt 40%.

our kids will never forgive us for this. we are now having to borrow money to make our interest payments. china owns some of that debt. we better start getting this right. what did republicans do? i would love to blame this on biden. he sent us down the socialism street that has is out of control and dangerous. republicans did that. they passed the covid stimulus bill that expanded medicaid and left us with 100 million americans on medicaid and 42 million americans on food stamps. that is one third of our population. did republicans try to make it right? no, they opened up earmarks and pet projects, passing 7000 of them last year. it's been $30 million on an honors college in vermont, $10 million to tear down a hotel in alaska. the list goes on.

in the 2024 appropriations budgets, republicans put in $7.4 billion worth of earmarks and pet projects. democrats put into $.8 billion. now tell me who the big spenders are. we call out everybody because it has to stop. host: that was republican presidential candidate nikki haley. kim is next in arkansas. -- tim is next in arkansas. caller: i've not worked in 30 years. the stock market will have the biggest rally in history when trump walks into jail. that is my prediction. it will be a great year and biden's economy will take us into the future. i promise it will be a great future. host: james in mississippi. what you think. caller: i think that guy from arkansas was smoking something.

with donald trump fuel was $1.63 a gallon. it is going to be cheap on the consumers. firewood sticks in my mind today. it was $22 a sheet under donald trump. under joe biden it went to $100 a sheet. c-span needs to investigate on this. we have all of these illegal aliens coming into our country. who will feed them. farmers in mississippi say we have hard times. people come into this country illegally because we currently grow a certain amount of food. i am talking the farmers.

when you do not see lumber cars that means nobody is building nothing. we hauled lumber. the economy was wide open. when biden went into office he laid off 1000 men in the oilfield to buy oil from venezuela, a communist country. it blows my mind. fuel is four dollars a gallon and is to be $1.63 with donald trump. that is what i have to say. have a merry christmas. host: merry christmas. michael in virginia. why are you optimistic? caller: i feel like the country and the republicans have not given joe biden an opportunity to do his job. i think he has done a tremendous

job and he has done more for the country in the three years he has been in office since donald trump has thought about being president the four years he was in office. i think everything has gone to pot since trump has been in and out of office. if he gets reelected as president it will be worse because we will be in a fascist, communistic situation. i think the american people voting for donald trump need to open up their eyes and see this man is only looking out for himself. host: how are your finances? caller: i am retired and i am living within my means so i am doing ok. i do not have any quarrels. i am doing pretty well.

i am happy with the way i am living. host: joe in virginia. what do you think? caller: i am optimistic if president trump wins, but i am pessimistic if biden gets elected. the reason is, i would like to give everybody political advice. do not vote for a president of the united states just because you like him or you think he is a nice old man. you vote for a president of the united states because he is successful businessman and he institutes policies that are successful and grow your wealth and that is what donald trump did. when joe biden took office, gas was less than two dollars a gallon. trump did not get us into any wars, now we are in two world wars. let's talk about inflation.

democrats like to blame inflation on the war in ukraine but before the ukrainian war biden stepped into office and he stopped drilling, we became oil importer instead of oil exporter , which caused the markets to increase the price of oil around the world. what happens when oil increases host:? host:how are you doing personally? do you feel like your wages have kept up with inflation? are you struggling? caller: i have been a blue-collar worker my whole life. it has never mattered to me whether a republican or a democrat has gotten into office because i have always lived within my means. i raised four sons. i put them through a private christian school. i am 59 years old. my house is paid off.

my sons have no college debt. i am still a blue-collar worker. i will always make ends meet because 99% of the time it is a personal choice whether you are in debt or whether you are not. as far as policies go, let's face it. the biden administration have been a failure. would anyone have thought four years ago that biden's policies on the border would result in 100,000 american deaths a year to fentanyl? biden -- if biden should be impeached for anything, he should be impeached for not defending the lives of american citizens and allowing fentanyl and drugs to control our border and kill hundreds of thousands of americans under his administration. host: david in new orleans. good morning. caller: thanks for taking my call. you are very chipper for this time of the morning.

[laughter] let me say this. i think a couple of your people -- i think most of the problem is us. that is the economy goes up and down and presidents comment go. we are to spending money with reckless abandon. if we were careful about that, the corporations can raise prices and it will not slow us down a bit. i tried to live within my means and all of that. i thank you for taking my call. host: nicole in arizona. good morning. caller: good morning. i am calling on the pessimistic line in my reason is because i am pessimistic about the direction of america and our political world.

since we lost our election when we had al gore, he was set to deal with everything that had to do with the weather changes and things like that. i feel that was a stolen election there from the republicans. now we are dealing with donald trump stealing elections. we were said to go with hillary clinton. someone released a stupid report a week or so before the election that threw that off. i still want to know who told the doj to announce they will investigate her again and again over that server when it was already settled. that was wrong. host: how are your finances, how are things going for you? how are things going for you economically? caller: not well. with health care we've all been trying to move towards a

universal health care. every time we turn around republicans are shutting it down. we voted for obama so we could get that health care and they shut it down with their antics. they are not following what the majority voted for. the republicans are a big problem. democrats do the same thing when they are in. they can ever get what we want through. immigration was dealt with with obama. trump came in and crushed all of those policies we had. he made it worse. now is getting worse. everyone wants to blame it on obama or joe biden. trump is the one who ruined our immigration movement going forward that was not able to go forward for decades and decades before because the republicans and the democrats fight about it all the time and they never have a good solution. i am very disappointed in i'm

very pessimistic. we have been going down a long road and it is getting worse. donald -- anyone who can look at donald trump's crimes and accept that and acknowledge that is delusional and they will be making decisions when it comes time to vote. host: dan in pennsylvania sends a text, the poor pay for everything they can afford, the middle class pay for what the poor cannot, the rich do nothing. james in florida, you are optimistic. tell us why. caller: good morning. my comment is first of all i want to say merry christmas to everybody. host: merry christmas. caller: i am a republican and i voted for trump. when he was in office a lot of the people i know, the mom-and-pop businesses were booming. they were able to put the kids in college.

no wars. they brought our guys home from the military. gas was great. it is not like it is now. then biden comes in office and we have two wars going on, we have people coming across the border bringing fentanyl, killing our people. since he has been in office it is almost like the american people are turning against each other. we are supposed to come together as one nation. i agree with a lot of people. sometimes trump says things i do not like. he is a businessman and he had china paying us big money, which they have never done before. at this point in time, when my parents -- i grew up very poor and we did not have a lot. what we had, we cherished it.

we understood what a dollar meant. today, biden when he came in office, -- my opinion is even if donald trump doesn't win the election, we need somebody to come in and bring america back together as one. we are brothers and sisters, we are not like other countries. i am retired and what little bit i had saved, i have to go into it now because inflation is so high. i just want everybody to come together and love each other because we are all americans. this is how we are in america. host: and that's how we will end this segment and thanks to everyone who came in. next up on "washington journal," kimberly whaley discusses the end -- the implications of the colorado supreme court decision

to keep former president trump off the 2024 presidential ballot and other related news. later, the vice president of conservation research and innovation at the centers discussed the 50th anniversary of the endangered species act. we will be right back. ♪ >> the house is in recess and will be back for the second session at the start of the year. the senate convenes january 8 and the house on january 9. both chambers faced to upcoming federal budget funding deadlines to avoid a government shutdown. the first is on january 19 and the other is on february 2. >> the appropriations committees

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just look like this, it looks like this where americans can see democracy at work and citizens are truly informed. in the public thrives. get informed straight from the source on c-span, unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. from the nation's capital to wherever you are, the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span, powered by cable. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. i'm joined by kimberly wehle, the university of baltimore professor and a lot to talk about. i wanted to start with the breaking news about the michigan call and reported by the detroit news.

what will that mean and what we know so far? guest: we know this is new information and it sounds like -- and i'm not one or hundred percent but it sounds like the special counsel did not have this information when the justice department transferred stuff to michigan relating to donald trump and the election in the state of michigan but the question here is similar to what happened in georgia which produced an indictment, the famous call asking where donald trump allegedly pressured the secretary of state of georgia to find enough votes to take that column from joe biden in georgia and move it into donald trump's column that produce the sweeping indictment and other issues in georgia. is that a violation of michigan

law to have -- to ask people who are counting ballots to not do their due diligence and not do their public service and put that number in the column that the voters chose? it's too early to tell but it could produce more legal jeopardy potentially for donald trump and others who were potentially involved in that transaction. host: let's talk about some of the cases in front of the supreme court. i will put them on the screen. here's what's informative -- here's what is in front of the court now -- that's from the washington post and politico. let's go through and start with the first one which is the colorado supreme court ruling. where does that stand as far as

the supreme court? guest: it looks like there has been talk from trump's lawyers that they are interested in appealing that if they haven't already. there is a decision out of the supreme court of the state of colorado. every state has their own judicial system and it goes all the way up to the supreme court for the state and the u.s. supreme court can take certain cases from states if they want but the question would be, will the u.s. supreme court say yes, we will review the decision of the supreme court of colorado because it involves questions of federal law, that is how to read the 14th amendment of the united states constitution? the colorado supreme court has said we will hold off on enforcing or saying this ruling controls the primary in colorado

until we see what happens in this appeal. right now, there is no actual effect from the ruling because they sort of put it on hold pending what the united states supreme court decides, but the primary is coming up so the timing is very squished. if nothing happens, he will still be on the ballot. unless they decide we will enforce this. if the supreme court of the appeal then he will not be on the ballot. right now, they are saying we will wait to see if the top supreme court in the united states steps in and if they don't, then he's not on the primary ballot in march for the primaries in colorado. host: what's your opinion on that decision by the colorado supreme court? guest: this is very controversial understandably and it's important to distinguish between political arguments and normative arguments as to what should happen, what's good for

the country, with good for the future of the process of elections and the law. on the law, on section three of the 14th amendment, the colorado supreme court majority is very strong. it could be correct and it doesn't mean it's a good idea for the job of judges is to apply the law, not to make decisions about the political implications of something. host: i will put a piece of that supreme court ruling on the screen. president trump did nely incite the insurrection even wh siege on the capital was fullyway. he continued to supported by repeatedly demanding that vice president mike pence refused to orm his constitutional duty and by calling senators to persuade them to stop the counting of electoral votes. it continues but i want to ask you about the dissent on that.

one of the dissenters was the colorado supreme court justice. he talked about the issue of due process. talk about that. guest: people need to understand that after the civil war, when there was reconstruction of the country, the north and south came back together. three amendments were passed. the 14th included the provision that said if you are an officer and took an oath for the confederacy, the south and you engaged in insurrection which is the civil war, you cannot hold office again. that's the provision. the question then is what is in insurrection. is the unit president of the united states an officer? the dissenting justice said you need to have effectively a number of things but you need to have a full-blown criminal trial

that donald trump would be charged with insurrection and it would effectively be a jury verdict beyond a reasonable doubt under the criminal system to actually find that he engaged in insurrection. what happened in colorado was a civil decision by a judge after a trial. there was a five day evidentiary trial there were witnesses and documents and donald trump's lawyers had the ability to put on a defense. the dissenting justice talked about due process but due process doesn't always mean a full-blown criminal trial. due process, the argument for the majority, was the evidentiary hearing he got. everything doesn't have to go to that very high bar of a criminal process but that's a question that's not really addressed one way or the other in the actual 14th amendment. host: if you have a question or comment for guest, you can call

on her by party, republicans (202) 748-8001, democrats (202) 748-8000 an independents (202) 748-8002. party,howell other states decin this? guest: i think there is a dozen other states that have similar claims in the court system. there are multiple states with a dish where the claims have failed for number of reasons either the wrong plaintiff brought it or the state law did not authorize this kind of thing. it's important to keep in mind that there is no national federal way to walk into court and say keep any candidate off the ballot across the country. every state has to apply their own state law. the colorado supreme court decision was really about

colorado's rules for getting on the ballot. could it affect other judges? they could read the colorado decision and say we think this makes sense, it's between all three or four decisions. i think it was 213 pages so it's a thorough and scholarly analysis, but it would not control anyone else unless the supreme court takes the case and decides it in a way that would affect the entire country. the court could decide on narrow grounds that doesn't impact anyone outside the state of colorado. host: newsweek has an article about neil gorsuch. apparently he made a decision that has some bearing on this case? guest: yeah, it's probably fair

to anticipate that justice is thomases and alito would be on board with this decision and maybe justice kagan and justice sotomayor and justice jackson might be -- agreeing with the majority in part because it's a very conservative originalist writing. they use the plain language, they go back to the dictionary from the time of the ratification of the constitution. they look at -- they say states get to do what states should be able to do, very conservative approach to finding that donald trump is disqualified. i think the question is they are pulling out of a different case which is not exactly the same. gorsuch, cavanagh, roberts and justice coney barrett, where would they fall in that decision

and you need five votes to get to the merit that is a full-blown consideration by the court. i think those of the justices in the mix. three of them were put there by donald trump. it's a little strange and then you've got justice clarence thomas whose wife was involved, somewhat involved, what you think of that? some would say that justice thomas at a minimum should recuse himself. there were multiple cases, a handful of cases after the november, 2020 election involving donald trump's claim of fraud and involving how the ballots should be counted because of covid and justice thomas did not recuse himself and didn't make it known that his wife was involved in efforts to persuade vice president pence to not certify the election for joe biden.

the supreme court has a new code of ethics but there is no enforcement mechanism so it's up to the justices. there is no police on the beat to say if you don't do it you're in trouble and there's no accountability. that's probably unlikely in the suggestion that just because a president appointed you -- that would be a problem for the supreme court anytime a president appoints someone and they are still president because all kinds of cases involving the federal government come up before the court. i don't think that's a strong argument for recusal. host: let's go to the trump immunity claim. guest: this is probably easier than the 14th amendment claim. there is nothing in the constitution that says presidents have immunity from anything. it's implied but the idea that if the president is doing presidential things, making

decisions about how to run the executive branch are making decisions around how to manage the military, they cannot be sued. you can be sued for doing presidential things because then they will just stop making good decisions or worry about their liability. donald trump has said effectively that everything i did relating to january 6 was part of my presidential duties. there -- all of the indictments essentially and just the january 6 case, they should all get thrown out because i was being president. the problem with that is presidents are not kings and there are limits on that. there were two decisions out of the d.c. courts, two different cases that essentially said the d.c. circuits and when he was trying to get reelected, that

was him acting as a candidate and that him acting as president. also, the idea that presidents who have the power of the military and the power of the fbi in the cia and surveillance power can commit crimes in office allegedly. then have no accountability, that makes absolutely no sense. i think that's not going to win the day in the supreme court. it could delay the january 6 trial which is now scheduled for march 4. if that gets delayed long enough past the election, donald trump is reelected, he could tell the justice department to kill the case or he could pardon himself. host: you do have an upcoming book called how the pardon power works and why. the big question is, could the president pardon himself? guest: i analyze that in the book. i think the answer to that should be no. as i argue, we have to remember

some of us are old enough to remember the old school horse -- schoolhouse rock no more kings. we get confused around presidents, they are not supposed to have complete authority, that's what the revolution was fought over. i like to think of it as a triangle. a monarchy is someone at the top and they dole out gifts to their subjects in america but at the other way around. people are the power and the tip of the triangle is the president so for the president to have power to pardon sub wooden which means a president can commit all kinds of crimes and i will just pardon myself and we would have a criminal law ring in the oval office and that would be good for no one. that's my argument. host: the last one for the supreme court is this challenge to the obstruction law for january 6 defendants. guest: that came up in a different case.

it's not about the donald trump case. i think there is over 300 cases in the country involving the statute. some of us might remember the enron meltdown involving accounting firms, basically a big mess in their documentation and financial statements, congress passed a law after that basically tightening that and part of the law says it makes it illegal to obstruct an official proceeding, so the department of justice said counting electoral college votes, the president is under an official proceeding and if you storm the capital or engage in efforts to stop the vote counting, that's obstructing the ultimate sacred passing of the power from one president to another. the problem is if you go to a different part of the law, it

talks about documents, it's oxidant records and the argument is essentially when you talk about enron and accounting firms, you're talking about a paper trail. what happened at the capitol and january 6, the people that have been indicted relating to that, that's not a paper trail. two of the four counts against donald trump by jack smith and the grand jury of washington, d.c. residence involves that claim, that charge. the supreme court has taken that case. the supreme court says that statute has been stretched beyond what congress thought. he they say the plain language covers it but i think it doesn't but it could knock out two of the four counts, charges against donald trump in the january 6 case which is set for trial in march. host: what's the timeline for a decision? guest: back to november of 2020,

the supreme court did stuff really fast. they can move quickly. elections are short-term so the idea that you're going to go the normal course with elections doesn't really work in terms of the calendar. they could decide not to so we really don't know. they could say we will issue a decision in june and jack smith will have to decide if he drops those counts and goes to trial and risk the idea that those will be later thrown out and will have somehow tainted the jury. that's a big decision. it's amazing that these three huge issues are before nine unelected justices and they will decide for the rest of the country. host: let's talk to callers now. florida on the line for democrats. caller: merry christmas, america. i wanted to say one thing -- it's obvious that donald trump was behind the insurrection.

that's why he had that rally on the sixth, not the fifth and the seven. i don't see how the supreme court can say no. colorado made the right decision. we will find out whether we have a constitution or not. i love you all, america goodbye. guest: the argument that you have to have a full-blown criminal trial is not really correct as a matter of due process. the due process clause about -- is about making sure government doesn't throw you in jail or take your property. running for president is like a job interview. the argument for a job interview , you get a criminal trial beyond a reasonable doubt is not very strong. the implications are huge for the country. one of the concerns in the political column is if this goes

forward, we will just have politicians and states just saying that's insurrection and that's insurrection and kicking people off the ballot willy-nilly. that's the political claim. i sort of agree with the caller. i don't think people seriously debate that donald trump had an important role in january 6. host: in michigan, republican line, good morning. caller: good morning, how are you today? host: good. caller: my question is i know she's on there all the time and she is a rabid democrat. i would like to have her definition of an insurrection. you talk about trump is on their and everybody walked peacefully down to the capital. he didn't say everybody walked into the capital break the windows out of the capitol. he said every buddy walked down there peacefully. they talk about insurrection and

the only insurrection that i know of was the capital policeman that shot babbitt in the neck. she was in there doing nothing but standing by a door. i'm trying to figure out, she's on here all the time, is she just against trump? anything she can do to get trump, she will get him. host: let's get a response. guest: as i said, i'm a law professor and the lawyer. politics are really different from law. the law is the rule in the process for determining how the rule works and here's the precedent. i would encourage everyone, you can google it to take a look at the majority opinion in colorado. they lay out in great detail the evidence and definition of insurrection according to the colorado supreme court and the evidence and i don't any says anyone disputes the goal, donald

trump is made it clear any talked about the election being a hoax. the goal was to stop the counting of the votes for the person the american electorate actually chose as president which was joe biden. that is what happened. the definition is a legal question that this court has adjudicated. i understand it's hard to hear that from a political standpoint but from a legal standpoint, it's a different conversation. host: independent in providence, rhode island, good morning. caller: good morning. i have one comment and then a question for the professor. my comment is that i would hope that it trump supporter in the audience would consider since joe biden is now the incumbent instead of trump, whether they would be comfortable ethically

in terms of these situations of pressuring officials on his behalf to overturn the election in georgia and michigan. would they be comfortable with that same behavior by president biden as the incumbent to turn the election over if trump wins? if they are not comfortable ethically, maybe they shouldn't be comfortable with mr. trump having behaved that way either. my question is, in terms of respect to the constitution, it's an interesting thing because one of the primary claims of mr. trump on the campaign trail was that he has legally won the election twice. for a hypothetical, counterfactual but hypothetically, if he won the election twice legally, then the 22nd amendment that says no person shall be elected to the

office of president more than twice without any asterisk. it has no caveat in the language. therefore he's either being dishonest with the public or he's being dishonest with the constitution. if one of those two things and true, then the other must be false. i would like to hear how the professor thinks of that. i yield my time. guest: it's sort of an interesting logical argument. i don't think donald trump is necessarily committed to the terms of the constitution. i'm paraphrasing and he has suggested suspending it. he is not a rule of law person. he doesn't seem to be running on fidelity and consistency with the constitution. i think the caller makes a really good point which is that

we all think about what's good for the goose is good for the gander. do we really want a country where the voters vote but at the end of the day, it's going to be people showing up and trying to force a different candidate into office? it's not a democracy anymore, it turns into something else and if we want to have a discussion about whether we wanted democracy anymore where the voters decide or if we really want something that's more like a dictatorship where the person in power just pound the table and uses force to stay in power, that's a different america. there is a whole host, a cascading effect of that that will affect different rights for our kids and grandchildren that i don't think we are really talking about. maybe people want that but that's really different from a peaceful transfer of power were everyone except the fact that the voters chose.

that's the piece that donald trump will not accept. he's pushing a different kind of government. i think we should have that conversation. host: we have it text here from robert in kentucky -- guest: it sounds like donald trump has all kinds of lawyers and the lawyers made arguments and persuaded three of the justices in colorado, two of the justices wrote decision that don't have anything to do with the constitution. one really dispute it. the lawyers are working this out in the courts. that means due process. donald trump has had lots of due process, he has lots of money for lawyers in support unlike a lot of americans who get involved in the criminal justice system and don't have lawyers and have it much harder.

i think that is a good thing because that means judges and smart people are hashing this out and coming up with thoughtful outcomes with reason. there is an argument potentially called claim preclusion that the colorado case would control other parts of the country but it's a thorny question. at the end of the day, he keeps litigating this. it doesn't have an impact unless enough states decide to keep him off the ballot so there is no way he could get 270 electoral college votes. at the end of the day, it will probably not affect november. host: arlington, virginia, democrat. caller: hi and thank you for taking my call. thank you for being on this very important issue. my question goes toward the supreme court.

as a voter who is a little bit in the dark about these things, i would like to know if there are any cases that would give an indication of how the court may respond. i ask this in light of the relationship between clarence thomas and samuel alito and their standing agreement to give standing to disputes between states. it's not very well-publicized but it's been evident in their practice as justices. i will give you the time and thank you for taking my call. guest: i think it's deeply concerning with the reports coming out of pro public about justice thomas and justice alito's accepting lavish gifts

from billionaires who have business before the court. that's the conflict of interest. that incentivizes any human to make decisions not based on the law and the facts but faced on their personal interests. there isn't a mechanism, they are there for life and there is not a mechanism to hold them accountable. on the three immunity cases, there is president but not a lot. donald trump tried to get absolute immunity involving his accounting records prior to the presidency. justice gorsuch and justice kavanaugh were in the majority saying no, you don't get absolute immunity. that's why i don't think that one will be particularly coming out the way donald trump hopes except for delays. on section three, i really don't know. it's probably 30-40% that it could be either direction. on the obstruction count, the fact that they took that case after all of these defendants

have already been convicted, that probably means they are not comfortable with the justice department decision. that is probably the biggest risk for the justice department. that's the one that i think is most likely to turn the table over in some of these indictments. host: on the republican line in new york, good morning. caller: good morning. you seem to forget that at the time, there is tremendous election interference. there were witnesses and published tape showing people putting ballots into counting machines and reinstating them over again. there were identified palette dez bell is not printed on government paper. at the same time in a number of instances, numerous videos showed poll watchers kept them

from viewing the inspection and some of the videos even showed brown paper rolls wrapped around the viewing windows to hide the process. couple of them showed defective dominion machines. when you are talking about this case with giuliani, those two election workers at the time they said there was a small leak in a bathroom sink and everybody said they were in imminent danger of flooding and we had to close the whole place down. this woman and her daughter came back in the middle of the night and surveillance tapes showed her moving these boxes around. how can you explain any of that stuff if it's not true? guest: because there is a lot of

misinformation online. none of that is true. what is actually established is that in georgia, there are guilty pleas in that multi-defendant indictments in which people admitted to actually engaging in what amounts to election fraud for donald trump. to the extent to which there is any established election fraud, it's not for joe biden, it's actually for donald trump. ruby freeman and shane moss had a defamation trial in washington, d.c.. rudy giuliani essentially admitted -- admitted that what he said about them was false. a jury of regular people like the caller, not lawyers, not politicians listened to the evidence and gave him test the plaintiff a whopping damages verdict. their lives were destroyed. i encourage people to look at their testimony. these are patriots that have

volunteered and at least one of them were paid but they are doing the sacred service of counting ballots for the rest of us in having our democracy work and i think it's really important to not continue to spread those lies. those women deserve to move on. what was done to them was inhumane. i think the jury verdict having looked at all the evidence demonstrates the truth in that moment. host: let's talk towd in virginia, independent. caller: merry christmas, all. i know the crooked democrats are doing their best and they will try the very best on -- up until the election to rig the election. the best way they can. the question i have to the guest

is i know we have the ability, all trump supporters will still have the ability to write him in. they can write him in on the ballot. the question i have to you is, i know there's been controversy as to who the real donald trump is. should we write in his full name , donald j. trump or what should we do on that? another question is, will that right invoke be counted? guest: that's a state-by-state question and everybody in america should understand the electoral system. if you want to understand in your state how would works, look on the secretary of state's website or the elections board website. google colorado election rules.gov. you can mess around with that

and there's all kinds of voting rights websites to find out how it works in your state. if you're really invested and i encourage everyone to be invested in this election and invested in the voting system, i think it's a great idea to think now about how you will get yourself registered and make sure you get your ballots a you are ready to go. i think that's a great point to underscore. host: what a very, connecticut, democratic line. caller: republicans preach state rights all the time. the outlawed abortion for a woman but have a state uses our constitution for this finding and republicans don't like it. i just find that amazing. guest: that's a good point. i did a piece yesterday that makes that point. it's called federalism and the

ideas that states have power and we can have a whole show on the dobbs decision. i think it was deeply fraught legally and constitutionally to send that west into the states because we have constitutional rights and the point of having them is to not allow legislators and politicians to interfere. he makes a good point -- if the justices on the supreme court adhere to their conservative principles, deference to the states like what the justification was for overruling roe v. wade should lead them to think about letting the colorado supreme court decision stand. the colorado supreme court was really interpreting colorado law, what does it mean to be disqualified under colorado law and the looped in the 14th amendment for that but at its core, it's a state law question. host: sophia from manhattan independent line. caller: good morning.

thank you for allowing me. this is a word for kimberly. you are answering everything the way i wanted. i'm just one person. what happened in colorado, at least they are trying. that was my first state and i'm proud of them for what they do. with donald trump, you just showed the words that the american dream is dead. i wish he would stop it whether he makes it or not. i don't want him to die. host: we will not advocate for that. ed pleasant valley, new york on the republican line. caller: good morning and merry christmas everybody. i've seen this woman on c-span quite a few times over the last few years.

she is the right arm of the democrats. she literally has nothing good ever to say about donald trump. i want to know what she's going to do when you bring her back on when biden gets impeached, the crime family gets caught and they are taking money from foreign countries. the other thing is because i hate to be removed today if everybody got their act together just for not defending her borders. people are dying of fentanyl poisoning, they are dying from illegal people that don't belong in this country and they have no recourse. these people have lost family members and biden is one of the biggest reasons. he invited the world to the u.s. the other thing i want to bring up is the documents case. i want to see the documents that mr. biden has that he has had scattered all over the east coast. and getting money from penn u as

a commentator or teacher or whatever he was doing, $1 million. in the meantime, the chinese are donating millions of dollars to that college. i want host: let's get a response. guest: i'm glad he brought up the fentanyl crisis in the crisis at the border. these are really serious issues. when i teach one of my classes, i will ask we have a new president, what can change? people don't necessarily understand that presidents don't have all the power to wave a magic wand and shift things but that's an extremely important issue in immigration is been a problem. drug addiction and things and homelessness from president to present and it's something we should all care about and we should push our leaders and elected officials to pay attention to that. on the question of impeachment, there is no evidence that joe biden did anything wrong. there is nothing at all.

this goes to the question of not really due process but how many beings have to be on the scale before you take action. there hasn't been anything that has been identified that joe biden did something to justify impeachment. it's important we take that into account. host: can presidents be impeached for bad political decisions? guest: doing your job as president even if people don't agree with it and it was not the best policy decision, that's not a basis for impeachment. host: he asked about the classified documents that president biden had from his time as vice president. guest: mike pence also had them. they turned them over right away but the issue in mar-a-lago with donald trump was that he did not turn them over for many months. it took a warrant that was executed and there were more documents. his lawyers signed a certification saying they've

been turned over which was not true. videotape show boxes being moved around. it's the cover-up and obstruction that got him in trouble. host: next is robert in georgia, independent. caller: good morning. i just wanted to say that i'm very grateful that the creator let me be born here. this thing with trump's lawyers, letting history repeat itself. richard nixon to the same thing with the infamous tapes. he said there was no rush and they did rush. as a result, the tapes were entered and he resigned. roger stone, giuliani trump, he was an infant was lawyer with mccarthy when the stuff went on in the early 50's.

they are trying to do the same thing. that's about what jack smith is doing. my comment about ashli babbitt, this young lady was in the military i understand 14 years and she drove 2000 miles. she was not dressed exactly for a tour of the capital. she had taken an oath to defend the constitution against foreign and domestic enemies. those people had to write whatever they did removing a congressman putting them in the basement and everything. she was there. i live in a part of the country were all towns and everything now have drive-by shootings and nobody suffers or gets all upset over an infant or child being shot by a stray bullet.

she was there with time and chance and that's my comment. guest: there are police officers that day. we also the videos and that will get you in trouble smashing windows and trying to climb into the capital. that just putting yourself in harm's way, very tragic that those people pass and there were suicides, police officers involved after that. it was very tragic day which is why it's being taken so seriously now from section three of the 14th amendment because it was such a serious incident in american history. host: the university of baltimore law professor and abc news legal contributor, thank you for coming on. guest: thank you for having me. host: later, the vice president of conservation research and innovation of the centers of environments alive discusses the endangered species act.

we will hear more from you in open form and you can start calling in now. ♪ traveling over the holidays? make the bookshelf podcast feed part of your playlist and listen to all of c-span's podcast that features nonfiction books in one place. it features mo -- multiple aspects as with critically acclaimed authors discussing current events and culture from her signature programs the "about books" podcast takes you behind-the-scenes of the nonfiction book publishing industry with insider interviews, industry updates, and best sellers lists. find our podcasts by downloading the free c-span now app, or wherever get your podcasts, or on our website, c-span/podcasts.

>> at 7 p.m. eastern come a tour of the facility natural portrait galleries 1898 exhibit with porches of the major players in the spanish-american war illustrating the expansion of u.s. interest and influence abroad in that era . on the life and presidency of jimmy carter. at 9:30 p.m. on the presidency, election remembering first lady pat nixon and betty for who served back terms in the white house from 1969-1977 hosted by the gerald r. ford presidential foundation. the speakers include edward cox and susan ford bailey.

exploring the american story, watch american history tv saturdays on c-span2 and find a full schedule on your program guide or watch onl anytime at c-span.org/history. announcer: a healthy democracy doesn't just look like this. it looks like this. where americans can see democracy at work. when citizens are truly informed, our republic thrives. get informed straight from the source on c-span. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. from the nation's capitol, to wherever you are. the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span, powered by cable.

>> we are asking middle and high school students to make a 5-6 minute video. what is the most important change would like to see in america? for over the past 20 years and what has been the most important change in america? as we do each year, we are giving away $100,000 in total prizes with a grand prize of $5,000 and every teacher who has students participate in this year's competition plus -- has the opportunity to sha $50,000. the competition deadline is friday, jaary 19, 2024. for information, visit studentcam.org. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. it's open forum and we will be taking your calls. just a quick programming note -- at 9:00 eastern time, the house will gavel in for a very brief pro forma session.

we will take you there and then come right back to open forum. you can continue to call in and stay on hold. i want to show you this, this is the news from yesterday, the detroit news --

in other news, this is fox news saying that rudy giuliani file for chapter 11 bankruptcy after being ordered to pay $148 million. he was ordered to a mutely pay for de-feigning to george election workers. we will go to your calls now, arlington, texas, democrat, good

morning. caller: good morning. a great show and merry christmas to you and your staff and you have a wonderful staff in the background. host: yes, we do. caller: i have two things. i wanted to ask your guest but we all know that trump is guilty in inciting this insurrection. he wanted to hang mike pence and he tried to force him to change the results of that. there is a poll recently about how many americans do not want trump to run again. americans are not stupid. we know what happened january 6. we know what the results were. he is guilty as charged. there were people who would not argue about that. i am worried about her democracy. -- about our democracy.

bush versus gore went in the direction of bush because he filled the courts with conservative judges. i'm not really optimistic in this particular instance that the courts filled by donald trump with conservative judges will rule against him. there is a lot of scholars out there who believe they can do the opposite, but the pattern has been -- i go to bush v gore. that's how president george bush became president of the united states because the courts ruled in his favor. there were other supreme courts that want to leave it to the voters but the reality is, the supreme court has changed things like that. i want to add my second comment to your last segment on the economy whether we are optimistic or pessimistic. i am optimistic by nature. i am an optimist about the economy.

quite frankly, i am doing well and i retired at 69 years old but the reason is i saved 20% of my paycheck. i didn't go to the vending machines where a can of soda pop was two dollars. when i went grocery shopping, i bought my items including my medication. quite frankly, my wife and i had a goal of paying off our house by 2029. we've been in the house about 12 years. we have not lived beyond their means. i go to a gas station and gas at the walmart is $2.24. host: baltimore, maryland, republican, good morning. caller: good morning, good to see you.

i love it when you are hosting. in august, 2020, nancy pelosi said there is no way we will let that man win. i can guarantee you. i promise you and god's green earth, there is no way we will let that man win," and my jaw dropped to the floor. she basically laid out what she would do and they would not play by the rules. i was like this is crazy and it happened. in my opinion, the only insurrection that happened should have been prevented by the marines and the navy seals. i don't know everything but this is my observation. when trump was in office, her border was secure, we were respected in the world. he came in as the

commander-in-chief and the economy was good. right now, we will see the effect of the obama administration sanctions against everybody in the world. the petrodollars or on the fence right now. we need to declare a national emergency on the border because it's crazy. we are being invaded. host: i wanted to say that i hadn't heard nancy pelosi saying that and i look to the eckley and i got this on cnn that this is from august, 23 2020 with this headline, plessy says she would accept the results if trump wins reelection. caller: i saw it live and her saying there is no way we will let that man win. i can guarantee you. i promise you on gods green earth we will not let that man win. i watched it live. i remember it like it was

yesterday. the national emergency at the border, i stopped watching mainstream corporate news. host: got it. if you are on the line, stay on the line, we will go quickly to the house for their pro forma session and we will come right back to open forum. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2023]

the clerk: the speaker's rooms, washington, d.c. december 22, 2023. i hereby appoint the honorable andy harris to act as speaker pro tempore on this day. signed, mike johnson, speaker of the house of representatives. the speaker pro tempore: the prayer will be offered by chaplain kibben. chaplain kibben: would you pray with me. gentle god of love and compassion, we approach you this morning emerge interesting the longest night of the year. far from just an astronomical

event, this seemingly endless midwinter night serves as the painful remind of the unrelenting shadow of loss and loneliness. their grief made more painful when held in stark contrast to the joyful strains of holiday songs and festive gatherings. o come, o come emanuel, god with us. and ransom these hearts held captive to sadness and suffering. hear their mournful cries pleading for your mercy, desperate for your salvation. disperse the gloomy clouds of their nights of terror and trauma. may the people who walk in darkness this holiday season in our own homes and our communities and across the globe see your great light. those who live in a land overshadowed by death's devastation on them, may your light shine. wonderful, counselor, almighty god everlasting father, prince

of peace establish your truth and justice on the earth. may your kingdom reign and of your peace may there be no end. in your sovereign name we pray to you this day. amen. the speaker pro tempore: pursuant to section 3-z of house resolution 5, the journal of the last day's proceedings is approved. the chair will lead the house in the pledge of allegiance. i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. the chair lays before the house a communication. the clerk: the honorable the speaker, house of representatives sir. pursuant to the permission granted in clause 2-h of rule 2 of the rules of the u.s. house of representatives, the clerk received the following message from the secretary of the senate on december 20, 2023.

at 1: 07 p.m. that the senate passed, senate 310. senate 484. senate 679. senate 950. senate 1414. senate 1416. senate 1478. senate 2073. senate 2685. senate 3427. that the senate passed without amendment h.r. 1722, h.r. 2839, and h.r. 6503. signed, sincerely, kevin f. mccumber, acting clerk. the speaker pro tempore: the chair lays before the house the following enrolled bills. the clerk: h.r. 1722, an act need the grand rind reservation act and for other purposes. the speaker pro tempore: the chair lays before the house --

pursuant to section 3-z of house resolution, 5, the house stands adjourned until 9:30 a.m. on tuesday, december 26, 2023. >> this is the first time i have been on with you as moderator and you're doing an excellent job. i want to thank c-span. i want to make sure everyone listening a blessed christmas. i want to make a couple of comments here, regarding the woman who was on before, i want to make a suggestion that when you have a conversation going

over such an important issue as this, that there would be a follow-up discussion with people that truly know constitutional law, like a jonathan turley or alan dershowitz. i want to make that suggestion. i also want to say something about when we have states in this country that kind of go rogue or try out different things, what a lot of people don't understand is that we are the united states of america. and when you're dealing with important issues like a natural -- a national election, abortion, immigration, i think it is important that people understand that what one state can say can affect the entire country. this woman that was on before, ironically enough, she was describing donald trump and certain traits of his has being dictatorial, when in reality the man that we have in the white

house right now is more of a dictator than any president in my lifetime. and i'm 75 years old. the bottom line is this, and then i will get off. we know now a lot of people in this country, that every attempt will be made to keep donald trump from getting back into the white house. this is wrong. the american people should be making the decision on this. because it is so important. and we see what is going on now in this country, in many areas, especially the immigration area, and we need someone in there that is going to fight for us, and that is donald trump. thank you, and have a good day. host: you too. regarding the border, this is on axios. mike johnson, the speaker, urges biden to unleash executive actions on border security. it says that he is calling on

president biden to take executive action to address securing the southern border, urging him to restart a series of policies embraced by the trump administration. he told biden in a letter first obtained by axios that significant action on the border must start with you. dave in spring hill florida, democrat. hi, dave. caller: first of all, most of the aliens that these people are complaining about come in through the airports, and don't renew their visas and leave the country. does not solely people coming over the mexican border, anyway, winston churchill said that the best case against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. and when you consider that some of these people who call into the show, with so much toxic hate and rage that are completely detached from reality are able to get into a voting booth, it's really no mystery

how a crooked psychopath like trump can actually make it into the white house. that is the problem. just the past few minutes you had callers who think ashli babbitt was just an innocent tourist at the capitol when she was crawling through broken window to get into the senate chambers. you had one of them who thinks the world respected trump, when in reality the world sees trump as a malignant clown, who left half a million dead americans in morgues and refrigerator trucks when he was virtually dragged out of the white house kicking and screaming, and you just got one of them who makes up fictitious quotes from pelosi as he goes along, and he is still detached from reality. even though you read him the actual quote, so, we have millions of people in this country like that who should be forced to either repeat grammar school, or be committed to a psych ward, because i get there

from donald trump. not from a rational judgment. not weather -- it is not really whether something complies with reality, it is whether something complies with a political ideology for them. whether something stands up to the test of truth, being true or false. that is not even in the equation for them. the truth is dismissed as a liberal or democrat, or when you listen to a trump republican, for not five minutes, but for 30 seconds you realize that true or false doesn't even plan to the equation unless we devise a way to brainwash fools away from a voting booth. the grand experiment called america is doomed, i'm sorry to say. host: right, dave. bessie in delaware, republican. good morning, cassie. caller: how are you? i am not a brainwashed fool.

so much for the rhetoric he doesn't like. i'm going to say the lady that was 75 years old that said you should bring on professor turley , he is a constitutional lawyer in georgetown. he knows the law. the lady that was on, kimberly, does not understand that this issue with colorado has nothing to do with states rights. it is about constitutional law, 14th amendment, which has nothing -- does not involve state rights. it is a constitutional issue. so, i don't know. she teaches law, but how can she not know that. host: kathy, what do you think about the argument of keeping former president trump off the ballot, according to the section three of the 14th amendment? caller: if you bring professor turley on he will explain to you every single nuance of that constitutional issue.

i am not aversed in constitutional law, but if you would please bring him on, and he will explain why in so many areas it does not apply to the situation with donald trump. one thing is that the party that brought this suit in colorado used the information from the january 6 investigation by congress. well, that in itself is considered to be hearsay, because there has been no trial in colorado that designated donald trump as guilty of anything to do with the 14th amendment. you see, those of us out here who care about the law and listen about -- listen to all parties and understand what the 14th amendment is saying, we try to educate ourselves. everybody needs to do that.

don't just listen to the mouthpiece that was on this morning, kimberly, who absolutely does not understand the 14th amendment. i'm just suggesting, you know, professor turley is truly, he's not going to represent any party or any political position. he's just going to explain to you what the law is. so, that is my suggestion. host: happy holidays and merry christmas. here is a fox news article about professor turley. he says he is deeply troubled by colorado barring trump from the ballot and says it could be "incredibly destabilizing. here is john, an independent in maine. caller: hello. i was just calling about the founding fathers. i think both sides of the aisle have it wrong right now. they are allowing the biden crime family to allow that

chinese balloon to spy on us. we have george santos out of the representatives and in tg inking she can do whatever she wants. that is all i have to say. host: ok. thomas, louisiana, line for democrats. good morning. caller: good morning, mimi. i think we have a problem with people seeing things fairly. every weekend we watch all kinds of sports. i have been involved with sports my entire life. and the ability of americans to look at the same play and get different calls is ridiculous. everybody knows trump, the 14th amendment, and section three says you don't have to be convicted of anything. you have to engage in insurrection.

so, there does not have to be a trial. it is like a requirement. you have to be 35 or you have to be born in america and you have to not be engaged in insurrection. so, that is that. but the next point is, what would donald trump have done with joe biden if his insurrection had, you know, won the day? you have the president elect sitting there, the vice president-elect sitting there, you have nancy pelosi and chuck schumer in the house and senate. so what was he going to do with those people if his insurrection had won the day? people need to really think about that, because we have been, you know, doing this thing with donald trump with kid gloves, hand not really thinking

about the ramifications of, what if he had -- this insurrection had won the day? that's what i want people to think about. host: we will get one more call in from new york. kingsley, independent line. caller: hi. thank you for having me. i really enjoy your program. first of all, i want to say dave, his analysis is amazing. he was absolutely right on all points. the thing is, i have been listening to the colorado decision. i listened to everyone and all of these other things. i hear from republicans saying, you know, we are letting judges decide who is on the ballot. it is the constitution. which they themselves say is really important. i find a lot of these callers are completely -- i don't want to say ignorant, but totally

don't understand what the constitution says or what it is about. i have read the constitution several times. you know, when i was in school i took physics class, so i understand how a bill is made. so, i want to say, like, it is two different sides. and i am a different -- and i am an independent. in the crafts want to work inside the law. they want to work with the institutions. they want to work with consensus. on the republican side, though, this idea that they are right, right over might, we are allowed and we will take over, and you are doing this, and it is like, they want to work outside the law. this guy, trump, he almost destroyed our nation. i am terrified. i have a 10-year-old and 11-year-old. i think about this every day.

it's like, depression that if this guy gets back in congress he is going to totally destroy a 230 year experiment of self-governance. and i don't think people really understand this. like, sleepwalking through this thing. this trump -- and i'm an independent, and many of my independent friends, we are not stupid. we watched january 6 on tv. like, i understand we are not stupid. anyone that says that he is good for this country, and that we prospered, a half a million people died of covert under his watch. host: that's going to be the last word because we are out of time for this segment. but up next on "washington journal" is lindsay rosa, vice president of conservation research at defenders of wildlife.

it is the 50th anniversary of the endangered species act. stay with us. ♪ >> today watch c-span's 2024 campaign trail, a weekly roundup of campaign coverage, providing a one-stop shop to discover where the candidates are traveling across the country and what they are saying to voters. this, along with first-hand accounts from political reporters, updated poll numbers, and campaign ads. watch c-span's 2024 campaign trail today on c-span, online at c-span.org, or download on c-span now, our free mobile app, or braver you get your podcasts. c-span.

your unfiltered view of politics. ♪ >> c-span's studentcam documentary competition is back, celebrating 20 years, but this year's theme, and ford by considering the past. we are asking middle and high school students to create a video addressing one of these questions. in the next 20 years what is the most important change he would like to see in america checkup war, over the past 20 years what has been the most important change in america checkup as we do each year, we are giving away 100,000 dollars in total prizes, with a grand prize of $5,000. and every teacher who has students participate as the opportunity to share a portion of an additional $50,000. the competition deadline is friday, january 19th, 2 for information, visit our website at studentcams.org. ♪

>> next week book tv's afterwards is in prime time. a program where nonfiction authors are interviewed by journalists, legislators, and more on their latest book. on mony night talk eat editor with her book "the death of public schools, go -- schools," and she is joined by mariah. watch afterwards all next week. in primetime and 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. also, go to c-span.org to get the complete schedule. >> a healthy democracy does not just look like this. it looks like this. where americans can see democracy at work. when citizens are truly were -- truly informed, our republic drives. get informed, straight from the source, on c-span.

unfiltered, unbiased, word for word from the nation's capital, to wherever you are. because the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span. powered by cable. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back to "washington journal." we are joined by lindsay rosa, vice president of conservation research and innovation at the defenders of wildlife. welcome to the program. guest: thank you. host: let's start with defenders of wildlife. tell us about the mission and how it is funded. guest: defenders of wildlife, that is what we do, that is who we are. we defend wildlife. our mission and goal is to attacked all native plant and animal species in their natural habitats. so, really, we are here to help, you know, keep nature as healthy as possible by protecting its

very foundation, the wildlife, the plants. host: how do you do that? guest: how do we do that? there is quite a varied toolbox we have. anything from working to defend species and the endangered species act in the courts, to working with congressman on the hill, and to doing research to help fill in some of the knowledge gaps in conservation and help us work out in the field on the ground with state agencies, with private landowners to ensure that we continue to share this land and our landscapes with the wildlife that also lived there. host: and how are you funded? guest: we are represent 2.2 million supporters, members and different partners who are helping us in this fight. host: next week on the 28th of

december marks 50 years since president nixon signed the endangered species act. i have actually got a picture of that right here. this is from december 28, 1973. richard nixon signing that. so, tell us about that. the endangered species act, and why it was enacted and what does it do? guest: the endangered species act 50 years ago today, it is pretty remarkable, was something that was supported most unanimously in both the house and senate, past and put into law december 28, 1973, and really its main purpose is to prevent the extinction of species, help those who are listed as endangered or threatened to recover to the point where they no longer need the protections of the act, and really bring together this -- all of us, right?

my five-year-old likes to say teamwork makes the dream work. the esa is that at heart. all of the different federal agencies are supposed to use what is in their powers to help ensure that we continue to keep some of these species from going extinct. so that they are around for future generations. host: and how does the legislation to that? how does it present -- present -- prevent endangered species and how does a species get on that list? guest: there are a number of protections that are -- that go along with the act. once the species are listed under the endangered species act as endangered or threatened they are listed under there. it goes through a process of a listing petition, and then there is best available science used to determine whether or not that species needs the protections of

the endangered species act. those protections ensure that there is not, you know, unwarranted take of a species. that means killing, harming, harassing any of these species. it is through other actions that agencies may take on, that private companies may take on in development. host: if you would like to ask our guest a question or comment about the endangered species act, or wildlife conservation, you can do that on our lines by region. if you are in the eastern or central time zones the number is (202) 748-8000 if you are in mountain and pacific. you can call us on (202) 748-8001. i'm going to put it on the screen. a couple of the tenants ofhe endangered species act. it establishes protections for fish, wildlife, and plants listed as threatened or endangered, provides for adding

and removing species to endangered species list, and prepares and implements recovery plans for endangered species lists. those protections also provide for interagency cooperation, take a list of species, and for issuing permits for otherwise-prohibited activities. how is that law enforced? so, if somebody were to harm plants or animals on that list, what happens? guest: yeah, so, there are two main services charged with helping and forcing the endangered species act. the u.s. fish and wildlife service is one, and the national marine fisheries service is another. and so, when an agency is going to take on an activity or find an activity that may end up in taking a species or harming its critical habitat, they need to

go through a consultation process with one of these services. to really come up with a plan for, if that is a possibility, how can they best medicate and ensure that they are not going to, you know, to the species to a point where it is jeopardizing their existence? host: we talked about getting on the list. how does a species get off the list? guest: a species gets off the list once it is -- once it has recovered. a major part of the endangered species act is ensuring that we are keeping species from going any further toward the brink of extinction. but another key part of this act is taking proactive measures to ensure that we are recovering a species. moving them away from extinction , and ensuring that we can take them off the list. in a way that, you know, when they no longer need those

protections of the act. of course unfortunately another way you can be taken off the list is if you are declared extinct by the fish and wildlife service or the national marine fisheries service. host: staying on the positive side, how do you define a species being recovered? at what point do you say, yeah, that one is good, take them off the list? guest: one of the strong foundations of the endangered species act and what makes it so successful today is, it is based on the best available science. so, in making these kinds of decisions and listing a species, and many other decisions implement it through the endangered species act, they are using the best available science in making those decisions and implementing them. so, talking to experts. understanding what the science is saying about these populations, and whether they are increasing, decreasing, and to what point they have actually reached recovery.

host: i'm going to show on the screen, currently listed species. currently there is 505 endangered animals, 237 threatened animals, 760 seven endangered plants, and 174 threatened plants. i think about the endangered species act i don't think about plants. guest: yeah, actually plants take over half of that. and if you think about it, plants are, you know, the foundation of ourecosystem. and really the building blocks and talked -- part of those food cycles and interactions necessary for many of the other species and wildlife that are existing in these ecosystems. obviously, those are pretty large numbers that you shared. it is not that there are one or

two, or three kind of failures. it is over 1600 species that we are talking about in need of these protections through the endangered species act. this is an indicator of we are failing that many times. host: how successful has the endangered species act been. it has been 50 years and we are still in a bad situation. guest: actually it is one of the world's strongest tool and is very successful. certainly it does not feel great to have to list a species under the endangered species act. so when you take a look in 50 years, those that have been listed under the endangered species act and/or afforded protections, over 95% of them are still with us today. really, this is a truly successful piece of law that we have, and really the best school

that we have to ensure that we can continue to conserve nature and biodiversity. host: let us talk to callers. we are going to brian in massachusetts. caller: hello and thank you for having me. please do not cut me off. as a hunter and a trapper and someone who purchases stamps, i would like to challenge defenders of wildlife or their stance on a species that most hunters and trappers realize has recovered. wolves for example. you people have fought the wildlife biologist which i have a degree in in many states who know the science, the statistics, the population models and population numbers where these animals are found.

and yet you continue to fight a season for bagging these animals. another example is say your support for the petition to prevent which is deeply horrendous call -- deeply karen this propaganda for bobcats, mountain lions and the lynx who are protected in colorado. i do not think you really understand the funding that comes from sportsmen. you want to fight us and not work with us. can i stay on the line and hear your response question mark host: go ahead. guest: thank you. yes, i really am thankful and that you appreciate -- and appreciate that you bring up the science.

that is one of the key things that makes the endangered species act so successful is that it is based on the best available science. and so determination in listing or really kind of relisting wolves after it was unlawfully delisted was because of the science. that was part of that determination, and one that we certainly support. i -- and in terms of funding, i am also grateful for you to bring up the funding issue. yes, duck stamps are one of the ways in which conservation is supported through funding and the endangered species act itself is severely underfunded. we talk about all of these great protections that we need to afford and the over 1600 species that are listed. it takes funds and resources to

ensure these protections and to enforce this law. and still the u.s. fish and wildlife service receives less than half of what it actually needs to actually make sure that the endangered species act is realizing its goals. host: how much does it need? guest: there is no recent analysis done by the center of conservation innovation. it is over $850 million for that. and i believe they receive less than 40% of what they actually need to carry this out. and because of that we see a lot of limitations in what the service and do for the species and the resources they can provide. and it means that species that are awaiting some of these decisions of which at any one time there are 100 and 200 species waiting a decision.

while they are stuck in the waiting room they are sliding closer towards extinction. host: zoe in missouri. hello. caller: hello. i was research -- we were watching you in your gut -- in my government class and we really believe that biodiversity is so important and we brought up the endangered species act and because of this we can grow. the focus is so important because on the environment in general, we will be able to last. as a student i am concerned about our future. so being able to take more steps to ensure that not -- that all of us are helping as many people. that is my statement. thank you you guys are being so great for us. host: thank you. what do you think? guest: i am not going to disagree. i think you are right.

where we find ourselves today is concerning. we are globally one million species at the brink of extinction in the u.s. -- and in the u.s. it is about 40% of our plant and animal species. and so this is a biodiversity crisis that we are facing. and again, the strongest tool at our disposal is the endangered species act which will ensure that we have healthy nature for all future americans. host: james in texas. good morning. caller: good morning. i have a question. so, if we are protecting endangered species, of course we might have other goals. so let me just give a hypothetical. if there is a hydroelectric dam,

something where we are trying to build to reduce our carbon emissions and let us say when they are proposing this, they find a snail darter or little fish the only place in the whole world that lives in this one little spot. and it is going to be impacted if we build a big hydroelectric dam. what is more important this tiny fish that lives in one place somewhere in the southwest so we either allow this species of fish that nobody has probably ever seen, we need to protect it, or do we build a hydroelectric dam? when do we take care of all of god's little creatures or when do we say we need infrastructure? what do you do in a situation like that? guest: there are certainly -- you bring up a great point.

biodiversity crisis is one of the ones that we are concerned about. the other intertwined crisis is climate change. and so there are ways that we can balance this infrastructure and these dams in a way that is smart for both people and wildlife and for mitigating climate changes. it is also one of these interesting struggles that you bring up. the idea that the endangered species act because we are trying to protect the species that it means there will not be any of these economic developments or these are all harsh regulations against doing things like building hydroelectric dams. a study that was actually stemming from our center for

conservation at defenders of wildlife took a look at over 90,000 consultations, which is exactly the type of thing you talking about. when someone is building a dam in the area where a small snail darter, they go through a consultation process to understand what kind of impact it might have on the species or critical habitat. 90,000 consultations were looked at. and in zero of the cases that happened in that, in nearly a decade period, zero of them was this activity actually halted, stopped or was prevented from moving forward altogether because of the endangered species that was there. so there is certainly it seems like there is this tension but it has kind of been disproven that there is any kind of

halting of these kind of developments. host: a text from liz asking how often you update the endangered st and what is the difference between threatened and endangered species? guest: those are great questions. the endangered species list is updated as new species are added to it. just recently, a week or two ago, the north american wolverine was added to the list as a threatened species. the different between threatened and endangered. endangered is one that is at risk throughout all or a significant portion of its range. a threatened species is one that will reach that point in the foreseeable future. so, threatened, not quite yet endangered in terms of those definitions. host: carolyn, new york.

good morning. caller: i have a recommendation for people to read a book, and you can get it on audio by david attenborough. it is my life and my hope for the future. and he very graphically starts every chapter with how many -- as a young man when he was young, how much land there was for a lot -- for wildlife and how many species there were and in 10 years the next chapter. it goes down. less land for animals and creatures and more and more species going extinct or teetering. it is such a graphic thing what has happened in the last 50 years. and then at the last of the book he has his recommendations which i do not think will fly to good like a plant based diet. anyway, it is a very profound

book and he talks nice and has that great accent. as a young man he was a hunk. [laughter] host: carolyn, settle down. [laughter] guest: thank you for sharing that. those pieces are meant to taste a little bit of the doom and gloom and bring us hope. the endangered species act is one of those things that we can use in our toolset. really the strongest tool that we have defined the pathway forward. we are in this biodiversity crisis. we are facing a rate of extinction unprecedented in human history. but there are ways forward. there are pathways forward. ensuring that we have a strong endangered species act to carry

the fight means supporting it with funds. it does need to be funded, it is starved and not broken. and ensuring that it continues to be this science-based tool, not one that is kind of instead faced by political pressures. host: paul in south lake tahoe, california. caller: good morning, thank you for taking my call and happy holidays for everyone. i have a question about indiscriminate fishing in the oceans with these pilots taking all of these thousands of tons of fish. not pounds, tons. and then going to the docks and feeding the rest of the locals. and that is sometimes the only food the locals get our the trash fish that the pilots are

ringing in illegally. what do you have for that? thank you. guest: overharvesting and overexploitation of species is one of the five main drivers of global biodiversity loss that we are seeing. that along with climate change and habitat loss, pollution and invasive species. these are significant and a lot of times are kind of working intertwined together to lead some of the species down the path to extinction. it will really take a comprehensive approach to addressing the biodiversity crisis, the endangered species act certainly helps with ensuring that the agencies and certain private parties who hold

habitat conservation plans are thinking through this. they are using best available science and the understanding of the species to plan out conservation and recovery. and to identify conservation recovery actions for moving these species off of the list, hopefully and eventually. host: senator merkley of oregon introduced a resolution calling for a national biodiversity strategy. your organization also supports that. tell us what it is and what that would do. guest: senator merkley introduced this and there is a companion resolution in the house introduced by representative joe negus. this would essentially create a policy roadmap for moving forward with a well coordinated all of government approach to

comprehensively address the biodiversity crisis, really all five of the threats that i mentioned. climate change, habitat loss, pollution, invasive species and overexploitation. and really come up with this comprehensive plan for doing so. and to ensure that addressing the biodiversity crisis is made a national priority. host: brad in international falls. minnesota. caller: good morning. i would like to share a great story about the wolves. and where i live, we have a national park right in my backyard. i live in international falls, minnesota. almost abutting into it is the boundary water canoe area, it used to be. they add to add the w for

wilderness. now it is the bwcaw. in the national park, you can bring a dog into the park, but it has to stay on a leash, and it cannot go -- i mean 50 or 100 feet from the campsite that you can actually go and camp with a houseboat or you are camped. but the dog has to remain on its leash. cannot go out past a certain bound. and in the boundary water canoe area you can bring a dog wherever you want. ok. but the reason why you cannot bring a dog outside the 50 foot or 100 foot from the site in the national park is that they are worried about the dogs' fecal matter that the wolf will eat it and it can pose a threat to the pack. and so, at boundary water you

can bring it wherever you want. here's the point. these two park systems basically abut. so what they are really saying is the boundary water, the wolves go was over -- the wolves go over there, they are immune to the dog crab than the one in the national park are not. host: any comments. guest: certainly. conservation planning and action, there are different kinds of parks will have some different regulations for how they do that. but certainly you are talking about wolves being one of those success stories. you know throughout the history of the wolf population really really declining to a point where once historically ranging

across the united states, now only found in certain pockets of the u.s. and obviously being reintroduced in certain places. yellowstone being certainly the more famous case. but recently, just this week, reintroduction of some of those wolves, five of them in colorado. obviously the wolf is still listed, not quite recovered yet. but i think one that is getting closer and closer to recovery as we continue to really take on some of these massive conservation actions and recovery actions to ensure that it comes off of the list. the endangered species act has other successes that some of you might have heard of. the bald eagle was one in dire straits until it was listed under the endangered species act

and afforded some protection. peregrine falcons, american okaloosa darters, lot of great success stories, all of which we can contribute to the endangered species act. host: tyrone in illinois, you are next. caller: it is great to hear for you. i have a couple of questions. one is that i am a hunter and i rehink hunter's pay a lot of money to help natural sources which is a great thing. the other thing that i think is important is that you mentioned yellowstone and we have a lot of natural fires that happen. and i think we are wasting a natural resource. my third question that really is important because when you introduce a lot of species from the united states from different countries that have had great success and some of them have had detrimental impact not only

to the species here but to some of the species that cause a lot of problems introducing those species to the united states. and what are we going to try and take care of these types of problems? guest: that last one you mentioned, invasive species is one of the five main threats to biodiversity loss globally, but one that we are also facing in the u.s.. just look at places like florida, that is one of the protect your children from that, the pythons that are not native to the area, certainly heating up many of -- eating up many of the small mammals and other species. some of which are already listed under the endangered species act. it makes that all the more difficult. but, certain conservation

actions, for mitigating the impact of invasive species or eradicating them all together based on the science and what we are starting to learn about where those species are, where they might be headed and what kind of impact that they might have. it is definitely one of those five main threats that is taken into account in some of that recovery planning and action f or species recovery and of course is an important part of how we more comprehensively approach stemming the biodiversity crisis in the u.s.. host: what kind of work do you do overseas to support the endangered species internationally and also to cut down on wildlife trafficking? guest: yes. so, we mainly are doing some

international work on exactly that point. it is for kind of mitigating some of the international trade of endangered species, and also work following the convention on biological diversity has put out this global framework. of course it is not something that the u.s. is party to right now, but it has set out main targets for thinking about how we as a global community begin to stem the biodiversity crisis. host: bill in pennsylvania. good morning. caller: good morning. i had a brief question. we know how much lobo warming and climate change has become an issue and continues to be worked on by multinationals. can we expect a concerted effort to protect endangered species

number one. and number two do other countries have their own endangered species acts? thank you. guest: yes. so the endangered species act is one that is certainly a tool employed by the u.s.. there are foreign listed species as well. we talked about the over 1600 listed for the u.s.. but if you add up those included in the foreign listed it is over 2200. and yes. in terms of thinking about cross boundaries and conservation, there is some of that work underway right now. there are assessments on climate and biodiversity underway as part of a kind of try national -- tir-national --

tri-national effort. host: what are the simple things we can do to help increase biodiversity in our surrounding area? guest: hello. yes. there are a lot of great ways that you can support biodiversity in your area. some of those are be careful what you do at home. pollution is one of those main threats to biodiversity, especially in the aquatic system. if you live near a stream or creek, you might notice that there is a lot of runoff from fairfax city that goes down into those creeks. you can build something in your yard to ensure that you have a lot of grass and gardens to soak up some of the water before ends up in your creek. you can also support some of your local biodiversity by ensuring that they have a home

to go to. i know fairfax city does have a bat population. you can build a bat box to ensure a place to go home to. and you will actually benefit from having that i/o diversity and -- biodiversity and services in your backyard. they will your mosquitoes and some might pollinate crops or even guano can help to fertilize if you have a garden in your backyard. so, a lot of great ways that i encourage you to check out other ways in which i can support your local biodiversity. host: jeff in california. you are next. caller: hello. out here the spotted towel is endangered -- owl is endangered. and they are most endangered by the incursion of the barn owl.

and now fish and game wants to kill 50,000 barn owls to protect the spotted owl. does your organization have an opinion on this decision? thank you. guest: fish and wildlife service will come up with the recovery actions and recovery plans for what they believe is important based on the best available science. as we do and encourage for all of the endangered and threatened species, it is really important that we focus on the science in some of this decision-making. because that is really what is at the end of the day, what is important for the species. host: we will take one more call very quickly. amy in richmond, virginia.

briefly, please. caller: i want to remind everybody of the intricacies of all of the intertwining and the stop with the humans. for example, plants, i was reading an article that a lot of flowering plants are endangered. from a lot of plants we get different medications and different foods and everything. and with the decline in honeybees and wild bees, that puts a lot of the plants at risk. i was reading an article about it. guest: so close to nature, so goes oz. all of these species are important inherently to themselves and the ecosystem and the important services that they provide. a lot of pollinators you mentioned are important for ensuring that we have food to

eat and our crops continue to grow. a lot of the species ensure that we have clean air to breathe, clean water to drink. at the end of the day, it's really important ended endangered species act is the tool to ensure we have healthy nature that continues to provide us this servic host: lindsay derosa is a defender of wildlife. happy anniversary. that is it for today's washington journal. thank you for everyone who watched and called in. we will be back tomorrow at 7:00 a.m. eastern. have a good day. ♪

today watch c-span's 2024 campaign trail, a weekly roundup of c-span's campaign coverage providing a one-stop shop to find candidates traveling around the country of what they are saying to reporters. watch c-span's 2024 campaign trail today at 7:00 eastern online at c-span.org or download the podcast. c-span, your unfiltered view of politics. my name is ryan wrapped i am a historian for the librarian of congress where i oversee domestic policy and politics which includes law and collections from federal judges and supreme court justices.

we are standing in the library of congress. it contains 12,000 books. he had another library at his home in massachusetts. oliver holmes was one of the most famous jurists on the supreme court serving from 1902-1932 and wrote the common law. it was published in 1881. the main item on display is his black books. this is a compendium of every book he read from 1881-1830 -- 1935. it is a judicial text that

policymakers must find a way to balance failing precedents with law that was sometimes not transparent and good men and women had to find a way to find those precedents to work together with modern law. what's interesting about this page, you see agatha christie, virginia woolf. in this account, his final paragraph he talks about how he had been reading letters from leslie stevens who was virginia woolf's father.

oliver wendell holmes is in a world where he knows henry james and others. i just finished this with the letter from his nephew. he never had children some say the civil war put him off from bringing life into the world. his nephew had been bequeathed 100 books from this library. i have under his will the right to choose 100 books and i wanted the books that touched his heart and mind. even in death, they were

thinking about what he thought about, the ideas he promoted and the thoughts he put into american law. weeknights at 9:00 eastern c-span's encore presentation of books that shaped america. c-span partnered with the library of congress covering key pieces of literature. tonight will cover common law written by oliver holmes junior. including lectures on common and criminal law. our guest is jeffrey rosen. watch c-span's encore presentation of books that shaped america on c-span or c-span.org/books that shaped america to view the series in the books featured. c-span is your unfiltered vi