watch online anytime at booktv.org. ♪ ♪ announcer: c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are funded by these television companies and more, including comcast. >> you think this is just a community center? no, it is way more than that. >> comcast is partnering with a thousand unity centers to create wi-fi enabled centers so kids can be ready for anything. announcer: comcast supports c-span aa public service along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. host: good morning. it is saturdaydember 23 2023. it is super saturday because it is the last saturday before

christmas and it is expected to be the year's second busiest shopping day. complained of rising crime,ve closing stores unlocking up items in response to the frustration of many sho we are askin you, are you concerned about retail crime in yomunity? have you seen any of it? have regional phone lines. for those in the regional an western time zones, that numbers (202) 748-8000. in mountain and pacific time zones, (202) 748-8001. if you would like to text us, that number is (202) 748-8003. include your name and the state and city you are from. we are on x at @cspanwj and on facebook.com/c-span. let's go to the video at a congressional hearing on this topic earlier this week, david johnson of the national retail

federation, the world's largest retail association, spoke about the impact of retail crime. here's a portion of those comments. >> shop listing -- shoplifting in organized retail crime is not new but the landscape today is unprecedented and unmatched. the frequent this, openness and brazenness of the criminals, violence and the quantities and types of merchandise stolen are truthful indicators of criminal activity beyond amateur or opportunistic shoplifting for need. these are markers toward the evolution and proliferation of organized crime. networks orchestrate influence and create demand for those committing theft and fraud in our retail environments. shoplifting, cargo theft, burglaries, smash and grabs, and various rods are just a means to their end. varying in scope and scale, these networks range from loosely organized, local and regional groups to highly

sophisticated hierarchies operating at a transnational level. these criminal groups thrive on enabling others to commit their crimes. they prey on the homeless, the addicted, and even the victims of human trafficking, profit from the reselling of stolen goods online, re-channeling and redistributing goods into the marketplace and the transportation of stolen goods and proceeds beyond our border. we believe these groups use organized retail crime as a gateway crime with profits finding more and if various activities, including drugs, weapons, and human trafficking. these groups must be the focus of our local, state, and federal efforts. the impact of organized retail crime extends far beyond retailers' profitability. they continue to spend billions of dollars to protect goods, workers, and consumers, including measures that have impacted the shopping experience. customers have experienced shorter store

hours,, close locations creating community tax revenue loss and the inability of residents to easily obtain goods. despite what some people gay, it is not a victimless crime. violence continues to escalate as several retailers have already recorded more than 100% increase of violent assault acts in the last year alone. employee injury and death have occurred. in the city of philadelphia as recently as last week. retailers have increased violence prevention training, mental health support, and security presence to keep their employees a safe. fear of violence in some communities have impacted employee retention and hampered labor efforts in an already tight labor market. host: that was david johnson of the national retail federation, which had previously said nearly half of the shrink attributed to, or half of the shrink attributed to -- was attributed to organized retail crime. this is from the new york times reporting that the group

previously said nearly half of the industry's 94.5 billion dollars in missing merchandise in 2021 was the result of organized theft. it was likely closer to 5%, experts say. further in that article, it says in fact, retail theft has been lower this year in most of the country then it was a few years ago, according to police data. some exceptions. , including new york city, exist. but in most major cities, shoplifting incident had fallen 7% since. . 2019 organized retail crime in which multiple individual steel products from several stores to later sell on the black market is a real phenomenon, said trevor wegner, the chief economist at the computer and communications industry association who has conducted research on retail data. he said organized groups were likely responsible for just about 5% of the store merchandise that disappeared from 2016 to 2020.

during that hearing from last week josé perez of the fbi responded to a question about the law enforcement agency' abilitys to collect data needed to help identify those trends in retail crimes. jose: the fbi nationally, we've tried to improve framework to collect the information from law enforcement, criminal justice information service and through our program to collect that data for law enforcement. that data is only as good as what is being put into our databases, if you will, so we try to expand that and augment that to our collaborations individually with field offices. task force concept for us is try to true for all of law enforcement where we sit in a colocated environment with state and local partners. at times we will embed within them across the country to be on the front lines to receive that data and better leverage the information. on the outreach pieces i mentioned, we have elements dedicated towards private sector engagement.

domestic security alliance council program to really have direct contact and outreach with our private sector partners to include the retail industry. also the specific efforts we do out of our major theft program and have discussions, attend these conferences and really be part of that discussion to articulate, to receive what that need is from retail companies, to better receive that data so we can make decisions. host: we are taking your calls this morning. are you concerned about retail crime in your community? those numbers, for those on the eastern and central time zones, (202) 748-8000. mountain and pacific, (202) 748-8001. if you would like to text us, that number is (202) 748-8003. let's go to a few of the comments we have received so far via text and social media. we have from maryland, col i

baltimore, it's hard to have sympathy for retail when price gouging and greedy markup have been going on for the last 30 years. on facebook, carl says it does retail crime is paid for by all customers with higher prices, inconvenience of mer chandise being locked up or stores csing. governments allowing this ou be voted out. we have from x, absolutely. i have spoken many times about homyocal home depot has t lock up entire aisles duee low life splifters the george soros d.a.'s refused to punish. justice means locking up the bad guys, not releasing them. let's hear from dennis in kingsport, tennessee. good morning. caller: good morning. this is dennis.

theft and stores, that is in -- theft in stores, that is in democratic cities where i live, you don't see that because it would never happen. the democrats should be fired from their jobs. host: ok. thank you. up, melvin in -- next up, melvin in richmond, virginia. caller: thank you, c-span, for taking my call. the thing that should happen is that if we have a lot of theft, then they should have more security in these stores, you know. of course, that would deter people from doing these things but in my little opinion, the heart of this thing goes back to the whole economic inequality that exists in america. the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

so when you have those situations, the people who have not will, you know, crime will tend to go up because they need a way to be able to things to make ends meet. america is in real bad shape financially, you know. and that comes from, it stems mostly from this economic inequality that we have. and lack of education. what do you think? host: let's see what the other callers think. we have ruth and in petersburg -- ruthanne in petersburg, virginia. caller: good morning. be careful with gift cards and social media, sending money over social media. they are fast, they will get your money, by the way. host: has that happened to you?

caller: yes, it did. i sent somebody a $50 gift card and somebody picked up on it right away. host: who was that for and how did that affect you? caller: ok. host: go ahead. caller: and they said thank you, ruthanne, so they got my money. host: what does that mean for how you are going to shop in the future do you think? caller: i am not going to use gift cards, i think they are kind of scammy, and just be careful with my money. host: thank you. i am sorry that happened to you. up, we have joe in south dakota. good morning. caller: good morning. i just wanted to voice in, i am a first time caller, longtime listener. simply, grew up in baltimore during the 70's, that is why i live out here. it has gotten progressively worse with the democrats in

power over the city. in addition, i grew up in the ghetto down there in the southeast section, sparrows point. you do not have to do any of that. we didn't have nikes. we saved up our cans they -- our kittens, they call it, aftc now. and in the projects, you know, you only afford what you campaign, otherwise -- what you can pay, otherwise you -- once we get out of that, i think we will have more civil behavior. host: i want to get to more data from the new york times looking at whether or not shoplifting is really surging in the country. the new york times excess claims the u.s. is in the middle of a retail theft wave are exaggerated.

if we scroll down, the increase in shoplifting appears to be limited to a few cities rather than being truly national. in most of the country, retail theft has been lower this year than it was a few years ago, according to police data. there are some exceptions, particularly new york city, where shoplifting has expect. outside of new york, shoplifting incident in major cities have fallen 7% sce 2019 before the covid pandemic. walmart now keeps most things behind a locked glass, which makes it a real hassle to purchase anythin them. thanks, democrats. as to whether or not tracy hal is concerned about retail crime in their community, not really. have been in the store when they have cap peoplealing over the occasion -- when they have cut people stealing -- caught people stealing. those smash and grab cases are

the worst. i am more worried about the price gouging gog ramp to throughout the country. on x, how much of the theft happenin the selcheckout lines? not such a great ide those self checkouts. let's hear from jack in chattanooga, tennessee. go ahead, jack. caller: good morning. am i concerned about retail crime? yes, but it's not here in attanooga to the extent that you see in some of the big cities around the country but i fear it's coming. the crime trend around here right now appe tbe strategically under age youth breaking into cars stealing goods. they will go into neighborhoods or parking lots and break in 25, 35, you know, just multiple

cars, one after another, look for guns. carjackings are up, car thefts are up. error area does not tolerate shoplifting the way it looks like other parts of the country tolerate it. it has not hit here yet. but we are a little bit behind the curve. we are a little bit late to embrace the trend. as i see it, the trend is to pretend away shoplifters, just let them have designated amounts of $500 or less, $1000 or less, and pretend it away. host: has this concern change your shopping habits at all -- changed your shopping habits at all? caller: as shop primarily online for things -- i shop primarily online for things. but in the bigger malls, the

bigger parking lots, my head is on a swivel, as are most people's. host: he was referencing carjackings. in the same new york times article, it references the notion the u.s. is enduring higher crime in some areas is not wrong. car thefts are up by more than 100% since 2019. mergers are on track to be 10% higher this year than -- murders are on track to be 10% higher this year than they were in between 19. it also says many downtown areas have become emptier and more chaotic since the pandemic which may explain why drugstores and other retailers are more often locking up items, even if shoplifting is not much more common than in the past. tom is in crockett, texas. go ahead. caller: how come you got these cats that come on air, it's

always the democrats doing something and all that? well, what about the republicans? i see some of them getting stuff, arming -- i mean, [ indiscernible] i know this person that steals plenty of staff and has plenty of money. we criticize the democrats. well, democrats don't do all that mess at all i got to say. host: thank you. kobani is in honolulu, hawaii. good morning. caller: good morning. i am the same with tom. this is not even a anything with politics, man. this is mainly a youth upbringing. that's the bottom line. if our youth are brought up better by their parents, uncles, aunties, grandparents, this would be a better world. but this is not even a democrat,

republican thing, so it's kind of ridiculous. take care. host: thank you. you too. ronald is in north carolina. good morning. caller: good morning. host: can you hear me? -- good morning. can you can? host: yes -- can you hear me? host: yes. caller: what's going on at the border, all that money laundering with joe biden and his family, and i guarantee if they are sending all these mexicans across the border and bringing them in and don't say nothing, what they are doing, they are sending shall money to the bidens. host: how do you think this relates to retail crime in your community in north carolina specifically? caller: if they see what the president is doing, as crooked as he is, they figure they can

be crooked. host: ok. thomas in kansas. good morning. caller: good morning. first of all, i want to take exception to the gentleman from tennessee who said this was predominately a problem in democratic cities. i live in a very conservative area, wichita, kansas and it is just as bad as any other place in the country. economic inequality, price gouging notwithstanding i look forward to state legislatures raising the position of private security stationed at these large retail outlets to a position of a special category peace officer where they may be allowed to retain suspected shoplifting customers. and also, the so-called loss prevention officers that these large retail outlets hire, they are basically, all they can

do is observe a situation. i heard of a story of someone looking out of a walk -- walking out of a walmart with a high-tech television set and personnel cannot even put a finger on them. by the time the police officer arrived, these people are gone with the wind. host: have you seen any of the retail theft yourself as you been out and about shopping? caller: i have not personally witnessed shoplifting myself. but again, it is just as rampant here in wichita, kansas as in san francisco, california. fortunately, none of our large retailers have pulled out of our area because of the shoplifting problem. i also work as a, are used to work as a private security officer, and i used to work in shoplifting programs where people have been arrested and they are allowed to go into a diversion program. i spoke to one of the offenders one time and it was like a game.

she said we get together and said, let's go out lifting. the people in the stores, all they can do is observe and report. by the time the police came, they were gone. i look forward to state legislatures elevating the positions of private security in large retail outlets to a category of special category peace officer. thank you i will hang up. thank you for taking my call. and merry christmas and happy new year to everyone out there and stay safe. host: thank you. to his point about private security, here is an article from action news 5 in memphis, tennessee sang private security demand is growing as retail crime rises in memphis. memphis security companies are busy with so much crime in the area, in fact, the security expert we spoke with saturday was training women out the new hope baptist church in south memphis on how to defend themselves. it said that memphis has been

off the chain as far as car burglaries, carjackings, flash mobs breaking into business. business is good, said benny cobb, owner of eagle eye security. he says unfortunately, there's a price to pay for not having security, especially during the holiday season, later sang his company has been busy trying to meet the demand of businesses. business owners often complain about security services being so expensive. he says it's even more expensive to not have security. two more comments we are receiving on text and social media. donald of centerville, virginia says i am concerned thear amount of retail theft will cae higher prices. then roberts in kentucky says not really worried autrime or shoplifting. we have a great police officers, state, county, and city crime is down in hazzard, kentucky and most people here are law-abiding

citizens so not worried. on x, little concern here. is thi another gop manufactured crisis? next, we have john in birmingham, alabama. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for accepting my call. look, you know the city of birmingham is 70% head of households is female. the city of birmingham is a totally black city and we got some money to renovate all the old building in the city of birmingham. but the leadership never invest money into, into the black community. that's one reason, because of crime. and we just need to, t start too, to, to -- start to invest more money in the black community because the rate of

income is $47,000 in birmingham. if we invest more money in birmingham in the urban area where improve their living condition in the city, then crime would be reduced. thank you for accepting my call and merry christmas to everyone. host: thank you, john. jeff is in brescia, nebraska -- is in bradshaw, nebraska. thank you. -- good morning. caller: everybody is complaining about price gouging, what do you think is going to happen when you have a democratic president and kills the fossil fuel industry and the price of diesel goes up? everybody around this country, are hawse around the world by diesel fuel and truck drivers and the cost of diesel going up causes everything in the store to go up. it is not hard to figure that one out. thank you. host: thanks, jeff. sean is in baltimore, maryland.

good morning. caller: good day to you. i am very concerned because one, i live in a leftist state, blue city. democrats do not care about crime, they hate the police, they do not want the police doing their job. . security guards and loss prevention do not stop people from stealing, they have to let them go. half the time, they don't even stop them, they just watch them. the more this happens, the more retail theft happens, that's considered property crime, that means insurance goes up. allstate, state farm, they can raise insurance prices. and this is just ridiculous. i am tired of people thinking this is a gop manufactured crisis. i think you have read that, they think the republicans are just typing stuff up. this is not hype. the democrats do not want, they do not want police officers

doing their jobs, they love criminals, so they are just like hey, let crime go up. i live by baltimore. it's just crazy. the state of maryland, they don't want to put anybody in jail. lets just get rid of prisons. so everyone can go out and do what they want. i lived in d.c. in the 80's and i feel like it's worse now. at least in the 80's, when people were active and going crazy, they go to jail. at least people could protect themselves. now, law-abiding citizens cannot protect themselves. just real quick, there was a guy in charles county this past i want to say may be may or june, he witnessed a domestic violence situation and he legally owned eggen, he headache -- he legally owned a gun, he had a concealed carry, the man got beat up by her boyfriend, she got injured,

said help me, the woman's boyfriend threatened the guy, cussed him out, said mind your business. host: just to keep this on the topic of retail crime, i wonder as you're talking about how challenging things are in baltimore if you have seen any incidents of shoplifting yourself as you have been out and about? caller: absolutely. are you serious? it's like breathing air out here. i have not seen the huge crowds but people still all the time. and i say something, i was at macy's one day and i looked at the guy behind the counter and he was just like, well, cannot do anything, insurance will cover it. can't do nothing because insurance will cover it. now the price of my insurance will go up. i need to live out in the country. i need to live in a red state. they would take care of this mess. thank you. host: jerry is in crane, texas.

go ahead. caller: that brother right there is speaking the truth. i grew up 40 miles outside of san francisco, beautiful city, lived in california my whole life, so i just recently moved to texas for employment reasons. you put up that tweet by somebody, is this another gop manufactured crisis? really? these people on the left live in a bubble or they hide or all they watch is msnbc, of course they are misled. another gop manufactured crisis? you mean like may be the border? that is what she is referring to? yeah, these are crises that have been created in the last three years. you read an article about a half hour ago perhaps, maybe a little less than that, talking about how retail crime, retail theft is actually lower than --

go down to san francisco. host: that was from the new york times saying it is 7% lower than previous years. caller: let me offer that perhaps part of the reason for that that you left out, go down to san francisco, go down to the shopping district, all you see is plywood. all of these retail entities have boarded up, and i am not exaggerating, you walk down and it is plywood. people from all over the world used to come in and shop. they cannot anymore. think that might have to do something with theft, retail theft being decreased? of course, the stores are not there anymore. that's the case in many of our big cities. a lot of them are boarded up. of course retail theft is going to decrease to some degree because of that. host: is that changing the way that you shop? caller: anecdotal does not

matter. you have been asking every caller that as if anecdotal evidence is going to make -- no, it hasn't. i go out to shop where i want to shop. i am in west texas. but in the big cities, it has changed, it has altered shopping trends and shopping habits from people, of course it has. like i said, it has also closed up roughly 30%-40%, check those stats. washington journal needs to do a little more often, they never do it, get a good conservative source of information on host: that that hearing we were talking about earlier on, there was a comment from a democrat of california who asked law-enforcement officials about

shoplifting in general versus specifically organized retail crime. [video clip] >> how much of this is organized crime versus retail crime that is shoplifting? do you have any guesses? >> thank you. the data we have is something we need to work better on to understand it with our private and local partners. i cannot speak executive of the difference between brutal crime verses -- -- retail crime verses -- >> i ask you because i want to make sure we are not populating -- not operating any silos. she mentioned the chilean gangs. that popped up in my hometown of california. we brought it up to be fed's attention.

we change the visa waiver program -- changed the visa waiver program. we hope that begins to solve the problem. i cannot help but think that sometimes we are choosing our own tail and sometimes we are too big to the party. sharing information from us on a built-in basis is key to figuring out the patterns and trends of what is emerging. from the situation, we found out romanian's are involved in this. a lot of groups. looking at retail versus shoplifting versus organized crime, your crypto, a lot of interesting -- you have crypto, and a lot of interesting things working here. we want to protect our communities from those losses. we want to protect the retailers, we wanted picture -- figure out the big picture, coming up with good solutions. a lot of law-enforcement numbers are down and that is a big issue

. we have to figure out some solutions. smash and grab organized crime, retail theft, it is hard to figure out which is which. if you don't know which is which, it is harder to come up with a good solution. i look forward to working with all of you, trying to figure this out, get some real data so based on that data, folks can come up with good public policy and come up with real solutions in real-time. host: we are taking youcalls about weather you are conceed about retail crime in your commities. those numbers are on the screen. before we get back to your cause, what did you bring in some other stories we are following. the supreme court yesterday announced it would not expedited the ruling on trump's immunity crime. -- immunity claim. jack smith sought to bypass the

appeals court citing the goal of sticking to a march 4 march date -- trial date. supreme court on friday said it will not a fast-track consideration of donald trump's claim that he is immune from prosecution for actions he took his president, a question crucial to whether or not he can be put on trial for plotting to overturn the results of the 2020 election. the court's order offered no explanation for tuning down special counsel jack smith's request for an expedited review which he said was dated to keep the election obstruction trial on track. the order can be seen as a limited win for trump who has worked to delay the legal proceedings against him as he campaigns for the republican presidential nomination. another story we are watching in washington, president biden

signed the defense policy bill, extending a controversial spying program. as reported here, president biden signed an 800 is six -- $886 billion policy bill, marking the 63rd consecutive year the bill has become. the measure drops contentious preventions on abortion but also extends controversial federal spying powers come both outcomes sought resistance among republicans on capitol hill. the national defense authorization act which outlines pentagon policy and military budget priorities each year passed the senate and house with bipartisan support last week. a final story that we are following this morning is that the united nations security council has acted to boost a to gaza after the u.s. abstained. the united nations security council adopted a resolution to boost human turn aid to the gaza

strip that stopped short of calling for a cease-fire after a week of vote delay's and negotiations to avoid a united nations -- united states veto. the situation "called for steps to allow safe, unhindered, expanded manager and access and to create the conditions for a sustainable cessation of hostilities. amid global outrage of a rising death toll and war between israel and hamas and a worsening mentoring crisis, the u.s. abstained to allow the 15 member council to adopt a drafted by the united arab emirates. back to your calls on our question of the morning, whether or not you are concerned about retail crime in york community -- in your community. caller: good morning. hoare you doing? host: well, thank you.

call: i have been wki as a social worker a little over 10 years in baltimore, d.c., parts of maryland. one thing i have not heard callers bring up was survival thrift -- survival theft. a lot of clients i worked with, there are not stealing rolex watches or big tv's. a lot of them are sitting things like bread, fruit, vegetables -- stealing things like bread, fruit, vegetables, things food stamps will not cover. this is not their first choice but they have to feed their families. the decision between shoplifting a bag of bread versus starving, they are going to do the bag of bread. we do our best, but there are not enough go short -- not enough social services, not enough money, not enough time, not enough people to help folks who are struggling and turning

towards shoplifting. i would like everybody to look at this more compassionately. the news about the suppose it organized theft came out first and got everybody riled up. we turned around and found out most of these statistics were inflated. during this season, i encourage everyone to have more empathy, look at things from a wider perspective and know that your fellow republican is not the one trying to screw you over. i want people to look more at that. host: joe is in north carolina. go ahead. caller: good morning. that last caller, that is the mindset available democrat. you're entitled to it, you don't have to work for it.

that is what is destroying our damn country. host: keep our language clean. caller: the -- is skyhigh -- the crime is skyhigh here and most is done by young black democrats, 4% of the population. they commit over 50% -- of all crime. look it up in the fbi statistics. host: pricing the statistics including the political party of people doing crime? caller: no, but you know what political party they belong to. host: keep that language clean. let's go to gary. caller: good morning. very interesting show. i am a retired cop, i spent 20 years on the job. i retired about 20 years ago. my feeling is with the

shoplifting, when you live in any area or community that passes these kinds of laws and you don't vote to say this is what we want, these are the kinds of leaders we want, you get what you ask for. your last caller who was a social worker, all of these places with the smash and grab don't sell bread and milk. i can say from experience when people get caught stealing food, they never get locked up. i think we are in trouble but i think we will get through it, like everything else. host: next up we have john in jacksonville, florida. caller: we are going to get through it because we are going to get trump back in office.

back to the social worker on the military, i have never been -- within my life. i am from massachusetts, i had to move down to a warm state in florida. i made about $30. me at my wife have to live out of our truck. everything is expensive. i have to steal dog food just to feed my dog. i cannot get by under this administration. you want to talk about crime? look at dementia joe in the white house, what he has done to this country, making us by ev's. you have illegal immigrants lined up for miles getting hotel rooms and food and i am starving. i am sleeping in my truck tonight. did you ever think of a country where i am making $30 an hour, i had a nice apartment in massachusetts, and i could not afford it?

i am living on the streets of florida. that is the country we are living in. the guy that should be in cuffs is dementia joe. it all comes from the top and trickles down. where is the social worker helping me out? i am the homeless veteran. i bled for this country to go to afghanistan and he pulls out of afghanistan like a coward. that is what we have in the white house, a coward. host: if i can ask you, we have had a lot of colors concerned -- callers concerned about shoplifting and retail theft, but you are talking about what is driving you when you are stealing something. what would you say to folks who are calling in? caller: i have got to steal, i could never make it. i go in with $80, i come back home, i look at the milk and the bread and my wife says what did you get?

we cannot even make it on $80. i have to steal. florida is a law and order state. if you get caught, they are going to hang you up. we have to get rob back in. we have to get -- get trump back in. we have two -- i tried to move to the south for a better life, i am homeless. i am 43 years old. i never thought in my wildest dreams i would be homeless in the united states. i see 1.8 illegal immigrants. the border is open, democrats. stop saying it is secure, it is open. i am calling back up home, putting them in hotels in boston , they are getting food stamps, my mother-in-law said they are getting the full treatment.

i am a military that -- military veteran and i'm stealing food for my service dog. host: i am sorry you are going through that. thank you for your call. let's now go to rosie in wisconsin. can you turn down the volume on your tv, please? rosie, are you there? caller: yes i am. host: go ahead. what is your comment? caller: merry christmas. i was going to say that they put subject -- self checkout in and they're losing money because people steal.

i wish they would keep us on-topic. i love the border is bad, but we need to do something different. thank you. host: joel is in arkansas. go ahead. caller: hello. host: hi, joel. caller: don't cut me off, i want my 430 seconds because -- my full 30 seconds because i am allowed to call monthly. here is what the problem is. put the stopwatch on. host: i will look at the clock. caller: people are not going to church. the church teaches you in the bible the do's and don'ts. single parents -- and i know i have to use the right pronoun, a

person, a woman or a man cannot raise a kid by themselves. they are not super. another problem is all of the drugs coming into this country. that commits crimes. it is a good job to sell drugs. i am in arkansas, but i have seen this on social media. i think someone scented it from memphis to me -- sent it from elvis to me. this lady was at the lawyers office, she had her 10-year-old son in the car, he was left alone. that should have never happened. the woman was in a lawyer's office. you can google this. host: is that related to retail theft in the community? caller: this is what happens to

kids when something like this happens. he was taken to jail, locked up three to four hours. that has any effect on that kid the rest of his life. he had to urinate. he did nothing wrong. but the policeman was relieved of his job. they should have handled this better. one last thing. i was with my mother in memphis, tennessee, i was about six years old. i locked myself out on stairwell while my mother was visiting the doctor. i was five stories high looking down, i was scared to death. today that has affected me. host: i am going to have to stop you there. thank you for your point. this is in houston texas. caller: thank you for taking my call.

i am a -- of the veteran in florida, i have been where you are about eight or 10 years ago. there is no help, you have to steal dog food, go to the va, they will point you in the right direction for a homeless program. babel have you in a place in probably about two weeks -- they will have you in a place in probably two weeks. as for the retail crime, yes it is happening, it is happening in big cities. i don't see it too much in houston. the one thing people are understanding, these people's -- these places are folding up. they are folding up because covid is shutting down. this is -- you don't hear

walmart closing down. there are stealing from walmart -- they are not stealing from walmart? you can blame the border. make you understand something, american's workers -- america needs workers. we do not want the border open. they keep the wages stagnant. thanks for taking my call. host: several folks have mentioned self checkout. joseph was just talking about walmart. there is any article from cnn business that walmart, costco, and others are rethinking self checkout specifically. the backlash is growing as

stores are starting to dial back on the technology accurate -- technology after it exploded the last few years. customers are complaining. retailers are rethinking self checkout. they find self checkout leads to higher losses from customer errors and intentional shoplifting then human cashiers ringing up customers. shrink has become a growing problem for retailers who blame the increase and the call for tougher penalties but self checkout strategies have also contributed to their problems. one study of retailers in the u.s., britain, and other countries found companies with self checkout lanes have a loss rate of 4%, more than double the industry average. now let's go back to your calls. in negative just, texas --

nacogdoches, texas. can you tell me how to pronou the name of your town? caller: negative just -- na cogdoches. host: okay, go ahead. caller: i love you all, there is no red or blue state. looking at background on tv, know clement also, it is true of a red state. they stay people. like my man said, if we get more into christ, learn to love one anotheand love your neighbor, no matter, we are to love one another -- we have to love one another.

there is no blue or red in heaven, it is christlike gng to heaven. you have tmake a decision, stop making reason for if a man is republican doing wrong and he is a good man. but if it is a democradoing the exact same thing, he is a d man. you hate lot. if you -- if he is in your party, you love them to death. it is not me doing that. people that don't care for the word, it doesn't matter. if you love the lord like you say you do, if you care about the lord, read that bible and try to apply it to your life. then you won't accept wrong no matter what side it is. you will try to put it to decide. host: thank you so much. let's hear from jimmy in maine. caller: good morning.

happy holidays at merry christmas. i left southern california because of the crime. i had a willing dog there and they would break in and take the wire out of the milk truck. that congressman they had on was my commitment, too -- was my congressman, too. the kings from brazil and chile, whatever his said, the border is wide open. wendy rodney king riots -- when the rodney king riots hit in l.a., that is what is happening basically with the stealing. they are closing down all of these stores. i took novichok's and gave it -- milk trucks and i give it to the ana church. the reverend thanked me because everyone was afraid to go down there.

i had a business partner from india, they are all getting out of southern california because it is unsafe. insurance is going to the roof. however the poor seniors? -- how about the poor seniors? they are are -- they are on steps. we better rethink a lot of things in this country. a lot of people say we need workers, if we paid paid -- if we paid workers a fair share, give someone $25 in benefits and a hour. all of these centers have gold bars in their closets that are screwing this country up. host: we want to go back to that

hearing on retail crime last week. scott glenn of home depot spoke at that hearing of the extent of organized retail crime and advocated for legislation called the combating retail crime act. [video clip] >> a critical step congress can take is to pass the combating organized retail crime act. many retailers in the media are overhyping the problem. retailers were faced with many problems over the past two years. its impact has caused home depot and many of our peer retailers to take measures we would not have considered used to go. today we are locking up valuable product, employing off-duty police and security officers, even putting police officers -- police cars on the front of our stores, along with other tactics. despite these efforts, the problem continues. we even lost a few sources to this issue -- a few associates

to this issue. retailers are not exaggerating the problem. we know firsthand the impact has grown. while at some level theft is the cost of doing business, the rise of r.o.c. and its consequences is what brought me here. there is a myth that r.o.c. rings only happen in big cities. criminals don't discriminate when it comes to targeting stores and r.o.c. is happening everywhere. host: back to your calls. staten island, new york. go ahead. caller: good morning to you all. i have been listening to everybody who has been saying about retail theft. my intake was the previous gentleman is spot on. some of the democrats who have been speaking, only setting with the democrats, the far left, because i live in new york city

and i see what is happening -- i see so much theft happening, even at cvs. i had to move away when a man was taking a huge bag. the new thing that is happening is the border is wide open. there are so many illegals, i'm not calling them migrants because they are illegal. i came to this country 25 years, i had to be in line, i had to do things right to be a citizen. that is not right for their the people who come to this country the right way. these illegals are just walking right in. we don't know who they are. they take everything. they are and with the organized crime -- and they are involved with the organized crime. the new thing happening in new york city is the -- and they're getting food stamps, $5,000 is

being given to each migrant. people they don't know in this country, some they know. they are actually going to the bodegas with the food stamps and the card and asking the bodega man to take $30 out to keep for himself and the rest to give in cash instead of the food. citizens are finding life difficult. you should come see the food pantries. all of them are lined by elderly people. some of them are from foreign countries, too. it is not fair for them. people need to open their eyes. we need to get trump back in office, not to be like the third world. it is disarray. you cannot even walk on the

street. it is not normal life you're having in new york city. we don't know what will happen. all of the $5,000 each illegal -- host: we want to keep it on retail theft specifically. we are going to get to her one last call, debbie in ohio -- get to one last call, debbie in ohio. caller: i am 70 years old and i know when we were little they had revolving doors, our v.a. in cincinnati still does. you can get a grocery cart or wheelchair in there. i know they monitor with cameras, they monitor the outside and the inside when they have the smash and grab switches totally crazy -- and grabs, which is totally crazy.

we could come up with things similar so they could not get in or out. we used to have polices that would guard at the banks. you would have people under cover in stores watching out for customers and stuff. stores do that -- stores don't do that anymore to avoid the cost. we are going to have we will have to go back to some of the old ways instead of the stuff that is going on now. there are ways that we could try to protect everyone involved more. thank you. host: lets all the time we have for calls.

♪ >> senate is in recess for the holidays and will you back for

the 118th congress. the senate convenes on january 8 in the house on january 9. both chambers face deadlines to avoid a government set down -- shut down. >> the subcommittees and appropriations are ready to do the work. we are ready -- we are waiting for the other chamber to come forward with a number we can agree on. >> we will figure out the way to get this done quickly. >> when c-span -- when congress returns or anytime online at c-span.org. your unfiltered view of government. ♪ >> all this month, watch the best of c-span's q and a. sunday, prosperity gospel scholar kate bullard talks about her men wire, reflecting on -- her memoir. prosperity gospel scholar kate

bullard on c-span's q --. you can listen to q and a on our free c-span now out -- app. >> a healthy democracy does not just look like this. it looks like this, where americans can see democracy at work, where citizens are truly informed a republic thrives. get informed straight from the source on c-span. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. from the nation's capital to wherever you are because the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span, powered by cable. "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. "washington journal" is kicking off our annual authors week series. all week long, we will be featuring top writers from

across the political spectrum on a variety of public policy and political topics. to start us off, we begin with npr's morning edition cohost to talk about his new book, differ we must, how lincoln succeeded in a divided america. welcome, steve. guest: thanks for the invitation. host: abraham lincoln is one of the most written about political figures in american history. what makes your book different? guest: i think if it is different at all, it is in the approach. i try to tell lincoln's life story through face-to-face meetings that he had with people who differed with him, who disagreed with him, who came from different backgrounds, different races, different genders, different points of view. above all, different opinions about some of the biggest issues of the time. i think that gave me an opportunity to see lincoln in action and gave me an opportunity to try to portray an

incredibly diverse country. it was a diverse nation then as it is now. host: you have written several books about american history, including american president andrew jackson. why lincoln and why now? something people who studied the 19th century grapple with. he seems to have his fingers on every part of the 19th century, at least in the united states and to some extent, around the world. i had written to previous books about the 19th century and each time lincoln was a minor character, which brought me more and more contact with this guy that i had been fascinated with ever since i was growing up in indiana where he spent the majority of his youth. i finally got to the point where i felt i might have something fresh and to say in spite of the thousands of books written. i got to the point where i felt like it fit the news i was covering as a journalist.

this is a story about the past. i am not trying to do some analogy or metaphor about the present. lincoln was living in a republic, the basic rules of which we still have today, even some of the buildings were people govern are the same as they were in the 1800s. that would be really relevant and the more that i got into the book, the more relevant itself. i was writing primarily in 2020 and 2021 as we were having the pandemic and an incredibly divisive election and aftermath. host: where did the title come from, differ we must? guest: differ we must is a phrase that lincoln wrote in a letter to the best friend of his life, joshua speed. we know lincoln as the president who preserve the union and the civil war and signed the emancipation proclamation. he was an anti-slavery politician.

his best friend joshua speed had grown up in kentucky in a slaveholding family. he grew up on a farm where his father owned more than 50 human beings by the time of his death, that was the role that joshua speed came from. he moved to the free state of illinois. he had become lincoln's best friend. he agreed in the abstract according to lincoln that slavery was a bad idea, that slavery was wrong. lincoln said in this letter, he agreed in the abstract it is wrong but you are not politically serious about that. you are not doing what is possible to strike a blow against slavery politically and i disagree your politics. lincoln goes on to write, if for this we must differ, differ we must. he signs the letter, your friend forever, which struck me. he is saying this to a guy who is on the wrong side, at least partially, on slavery, this

profound, moral issue. but, lincoln is keeping the guy close, continuing to work on him and a few years later when we can was president, he got value out of joshua speed, who was from the disputed state of kentucky that could have gone either way and the war. speed help keep that state on the side of the union. host: you mentioned this now and in the introduction of your book that lincoln was a politician and very much a key politician. why was that something so important to highlight? i want rd from your book, abraham lincoln was a politician. people like to intify him in ways that sound more noble, a lawyer, a statesman, a husband, father. this revered american vocation is not revered at all. seen as the province of money, power, cynicism and lies. lincoln preserve the country and took part in a social revolution because he engaged in politics. guest: i think that a lot of us

today have an idea of politics as fundamentally dirty. fundamentally bad. and politicians practice their craft, when they build coalitions, when they cut corners, when they make compromises, we consider that automatically wrong. we are harsh on our political leaders and we should be because of someone -- because some of what they do is fundamentally wrong. as an art, as a craft, politics is what we are supposed to do in a democracy. politics is what democracy demands. we do not have two points of view in this country, even though sometimes it seems like it. we have many points of view, possibly millions and we should, because it is a free society where we all bring our different backgrounds and different ideas and are supposed to think for ourselves. but, we need to build a majority from among all of those viewpoints in order to support

our basic institutions through which we mediate our differences. if you do not build a majority, you can't have a democracy and you build that majority through politics this art we look down upon and maybe we should look more differently at. caller: we want to take your questions and comments for steve. republicans can call in at 202748 8001. democrats, your line is 202-748-8000. independents 202-748-8002. you mentioned this at the beginning, your book focuses on teen different encounters with 16 different people that lincoln had. all people lincoln disagreed with. how did you choose those conversations? guest: i chose those conversations almost as i went along. i initially thought i would do about a dozen. several of the people i thought would be in the book at the beginning ended up being minor

characters or not in the book at all. i discovered these characters through research. some are super famous. william henry seward who was his secretary of state and thought he should have been president, i focused on a particular incident in which lincoln was crafting his first inaugural address and he became his editor. some of the characters are especially difficult for lincoln like general george mcclellan who caused him endless frustration. some of them were people who were entirely unknown to me at the beginning, like william for bill, a haitian immigrant who was lincoln's barber and ended up participating in some way in the creation of lincoln's beard, the most famous political symbol in american history. maryellen wise, a woman who dressed as a man and went into the south and said she thought for the union because and some number of women in fact, did, during the civil war. there was a cheyenne leader

named lean bear who i had not third of -- heard of who warns lincoln about the dangers of the way that white settlers were acting and what is now the state of colorado. there were great leaders like frederick douglass, who in 1860 three after the emancipation proclamation, went to president lincoln in the white house. in august of that year -- excuse me, i am going to take a sip of water. host: i will remind folks you can send your questions and comments on twitter. we are at cspanwj. guest: that was smoothly done. host: host: frederick douglass said emancipation proclamation, great job, you were slow to get there, great job. it is great you are enlisting black soldiers in the army and douglass himself was recruiting black men.

he said, you are failing to provide equal treatment. and equal pay for those black soldiers. why is that? he forced lincoln to have that discussion, which lincoln turned out to be willing to have. there are these remarkable exchanges to me, some of which i had heard nothing about and some of which i had read a little about. in some longer biography. when i explored each individual meeting in every case, i learned something large or small. i felt i overall got a better idea of how lincoln operated and why we remember him today. host: it is interesting. we often remember lincoln for his speeches, the very famous ones, the gettysburg address, the second inaugural. you focus on the book on his personal skills and these private conversations and interactions with people. what is different about those two dynamics? guest:one thing is what lincoln avoided saying.

he would also be careful about what he did not say. he would edit himself a lot and that was true in personal interactions and his speeches. he would focus on the one issue he thought would decide the election, which was very frequently slavery, and he would set aside everything else as a distraction. in personal conversations, he did something similar. he would appear to their self-interest. it is the 1800s. and so he's asking himself, of this white man, what is this person's interest in the issue? how can i show them that slavery

is bad for them? he could sometimes be evasive. he was famously honest. he certainly was not someone who often lied but he would leave out things that would be pertinent if he felt it would serve his cause. host: i will bring up an excerpt from the book. his reticence and eloquence brought up something deeper than rhetorical style. he knew his limitations and those of the system. he did not try to w all arguments, crushed all opponents or solve all problems. he concentrated his power on fights he had to win to keep from losing everything, which was harder to do than say. that didn't always -- that did not always win him a lot of friends. guest: people often got frustrated with him. you could find people who could not deal with lincoln in the end. they cannot reach an agreement. he did end up being a war

president, fighting a civil oregon some of his fellow citizens -- civil war against some of his fellow citizens, but you also get a sense of what he had to do to succeed. he was facing gigantic tasks, a gigantic division in society over slavery, which became a gigantic war, the bloodiest in american history, which it remains to this day, and he needed to focus on preserving the union, and as part of that, ending slavery it turned out, and had to set aside other things. he had to prioritize. he could not always insist on getting everything 100% his way, which is another lesson for now if we are concerned about our democracy. if we are concerned about the direction of our country, we need to focus on a few things that we can unite on and set aside a few things or a lot of things that are not so essential. host: let's get to your questions and comments for steve.

jio bakersfield, california, an independent voter asks, n eve inskeep tell us what abraham lincoln would think about donald trump and perpetuating the lie about the last presidential election? guest: i would hate to project forward and say what lincoln would think about something that happened after his death, but lincoln did deal, when he did speak to people, fairly straightforwardly with them. he dealt with facts, reasoned with them. this is the remarkable thing about his speeches. some of them are quite long. a few of them are short. the gettysburg address took less than three minutes to say. but some would be 2, 3 hours long. the lincoln-douglas debates, with stephen douglas, each candidate had 1.5 hours to speak, and in those speeches, he would not use appeals to emotion necessarily.

he would not tell some dramatic story. he would not play on people's fears necessarily. he would reason with them. he took his audience seriously and had faith that they would stick with him and reason through the problem with him. and that is remarkably different than a lot of politicians are trained to speak today and it certainly is different than the approach the former president has taken, although he will also speak for a long time. host: gary is in jacksonville, florida on our democratic line. caller: good morning. mr. inskeep, looking at the politics of today, you should have differences, but how can one party work with another party when one candidate is a convicted rapist, tax fraud, insurrectionist who we know stole documents, shared national secrets? host: did you have questions for

steve about lincoln or the book? caller: how can it work today when one party has a speaker of the house involved in overturning an election and whose leader now is engaged in insurrection? how can you possibly work differences out when one party is so corrupt? guest: i don't endorse your description of all the facts but i understand what you're saying, that the former president has been accused of a great number of things, and faces trial next year on a number of things and the court proceedings continue, but let's frame the question differently or look at the answer differently. it is certainly not possible for everybody in america to agree on everything and it would probably be bad if we did. how would that even happen? we have a free society where we come from different backgrounds and have many different ideas.

it is not possible but it's also not necessary. what we need is something that is very hard but a little more modest, which is for a majority of us to agree to uphold the basic institutions through which we mediate our differences. it is necessary for a majority of us to accept the basic idea that we don't always win 100% of what we want 100% of the time. it's an ongoing debate and conversation. sometimes we win and sometimes we lose. we may be mad about it but we go on to the next election. in politics, as i once heard a politician say, nothing is ever over, and that can be frustrating because you have to win and keep fighting, but it also can bring some hope in that you are never fully, permanently defeated. you can have the argument in a different way, at a later time, and see how it works out. host: we have another question

for you on socl media. steve says did lincoln ever to your knowledge refer to the u.s. as a christian nation? was he a churchgoer? guest: that's an interesting question. i cannot think of a time when he said america is a christian nation and i spent a lot of time with the collected works of abraham lincoln. there's a database at the university of michigan sponsored by the university of michigan where all the confirmed words of lincoln and letters and speeches are searchable. you can look for the phrase christian nation and see if it's there. i don't recall it being there. you asked if he was a churchgoer. he was not exactly. he would attend church from time to time. he was never a confirmed member of a specific church, meaning there was no specific christian creed he was willing to embrace. he made a number of statements about god and about faith through his life. he once said he endorsed

something called the doctrine of necessity, which was an idea that human affairs were controlled by some force outside of the human mind, that some force was working on people to lead events in a particular direction. he later said he stopped arguing for that point of view, which seemed politically inconvenient, but he never said he disbelieved it, and in later years, he made similar statements or wrote similar things and seemed to refer to that force as god in some of his great speeches like the second inaugural. he makes references to god's will. in some of his private writings, he makes references to god's will. but he was also, as i mentioned earlier, in many ways an evasive person who only revealed what he wanted to reveal and it's hard to say what is deepest innermost faith is or was and there is no

definitive answer to that except that he referred from time to time to god. host: jim is in cuyahoga falls, ohio on our republican line. good morning. caller: good morning, mr. inskeep. when i think i finally bought the last book on lincoln, someone comes out with a very interesting book i have to go out and buy. this is tremendous. guest: thank you. caller: i have a question for you. i am very interested in abraham lincoln during that period of time when he had just become a member of congress, when he and mary todd went to lexington, kentucky and spent some time there. henry clay made a famous speech during that period of time. of course, you know about the todd family, that they were associated with henry clay, and lincoln was so interested, he

would call henry clay his beau. do you know if he ever met henry clay? guest: thank you for the question. it's a great one. it seems plausible or likely that he would have met henry clay during that visit you mentioned but i don't know of any specific evidence that he did he certainly did regard henry clay as his hero. he was a much older man, we should explain for those who are not history aficionados, a great senator and politician and the founder of the whig party, which for the early part of lincoln's political career was his party. in 1847, in the event that you mentioned, henry clay gave a speech against the u.s. war against mexico, which was thing going on.

it was an antiwar speech about how it was a wrong war that was being fought for wrong principles and essentially as a land grab to grab some of mexico's land for the united states, which looking back on it today we can say that was essentially true. it was an antiwar speech and it seems likely to have influenced lincoln, who seems likely to have attended because he was in town at the time, because lincoln went off to congress then and gave an antiwar speech of his own and introduced an antiwar resolution. he was not a fan of that war. host: our guest mentioned mary todd lincoln. you devoted a whole chapter to lincoln's sometimes rocky home life with mary todd. can you talk about that relationship and how that showed up to write your book? guest: it was a difficult marriage and i should begin by saying that that is not entirely mary's fault. we should never say that it was.

she was a very smart and talented individual. a very well educated person, better educated than her husband, w had less than a year of formal education, but they shared this ambition when they met in springfield, illinois in the early 1840's. they had a difficult courtsh. they broke up for a time. lincoln broke up with her for a while. ultimately they married. it's clear he relied on her advice and opinions but may be as time went on. she was revealed as first lady ultimately to be difficult for many people to deal with and very erratic. she did fiercely defend her husband. she was fiercely suspicious of the people around her husband, that they were out for themselves and not to support him. he shrugged that off because he figured people were out for themselves, that they acted out of self-interest and that is something he just needed to deal with. she spent too much money on the

white house, her clothes. she grieved a very long and publicly when one of their sons died while they were in the white house. the nation sympathized until she grieved so long and loudly that people began to lose patience. so it was a very difficult relationship from her side, but he could not have been the easiest husband because he was a politician. before that, he was a lawyer. he traveled around for were constantly. when he was not traveling, he was often depressed or lost in a book or in thought. that had to have been a challenging marriage for both of them. but i ended up focusing on an episode on the very last day of his life, when he and mary took a carriage ride around washington, d.c. the civil war was ending in victory. it was not entirely over but it was effectively over and he made a remark that acknowledged that both of them h had great mental difficulties and

emotional difficulties over the last several day -- several yes and said we must try to be more cheerful from now on. and it seems to me and it seemed to mary as she recorded this incident that she was looking forward to a different and better chapter of their life, which he never got a chance to enact. host: lou is in new york on our democratic line. go ahead. caller: hi. thanks for taking my call. steve, i enjoy listening to you on npr. i have two quick questions i would like to get your thoughts on. the first is, as you pointed out earlier, lincoln was a politician. lincoln was a great politician, but at the end of the day, we wound up in the civil war, the largest loss of life in american history, and that to me resonates with today because there are some people and groups that you just cannot convince. they are so locked into their ideology, whether it was lincoln about slavery or some people

today on the right locked into an ideology, but at the end of the day, they will resort to violence. i would just like your thoughts on that. the second question i have is that i have a frustration with the other side of the political spectrum as well because i know for my readings that lincoln was a believer in the constitution and rule of law and in the process that comes along with the rule of law, and when you see people rushing to judgment saying trump should be jailed, you know, their frustration with the legal system, my feeling is lincoln would have been adamantly opposed to that as someone who believed in the system and i would love to hear your thoughts on that. guest: lincoln was a big believer in the rule of law. he so strongly believed in the rule of law as the only thing that saved us from chaos that he was willing to accept slavery. he opposed slavery all his life but acknowledged up until the

civil war that the constitution as it was then read and the many laws and states that practiced slavery made it impossible to directly attack slavery, that the most that he could do was try to limit its spread. he said things in those times that make it seem today to us that he was not really so much against slavery. it's clear to me that he was but he believed in the rule of law and was willing even to choke down difficult provisions of law because he thought that was necessary for the survival of the republic. when i got to the civil war, of course, he in some cases arguably violated the law, even defied the supreme court in a few cases when he felt it was necessary to uphold the broader framework of the constitution. now, you mentioned the difficulties of the civil war. even though he was good at building political coalitions that he did not get everyone to agree. i agree with that and that is

true but his job, the necessity was not to convince everybody, it was to build a majority. even in the context of the civil war, he succeeded in doing that. he reached out to people who disagree with him even about slavery but they were willing to preserve the union and fight for what we would see as the right side and the cause and do what was necessary to keep them on the side throughout that process and because he capped a majority of the country behind the federal government, it became possible and even inevitable that his side would win the war because that was going to have a bigger economy, more money and be able to field more soldiers on the battlefield and that numerical superiority is the basic reason the union won the civil war. host: i want to follow-up on the points you are making about lincoln's stance on slery with another excerpt from your book, whe you say "it was too modest

to say he merely responded to necessity. it was better to say he understo the power of circumstances d try to advance his goals within them. he knew the people he wanted to lead and met them where they were. he spoke to things that mattered to them, nudging just enough pele just as far as they were willing to go. eventually, the antislavery movement changed the circumstances, winning a presidential election in a way no party ever had and winning a second election that came in the form of a civil war. after the war ended, he was killed by a man who believed he was changing history but lincoln had made his impression." guest: thank you for reading them. i feel that that passage expresses something i did not deeply understand before doing this research and it's one of many things as someone who has read lincoln books my whole life did not truly understand about lincoln. he had a modest idea about -- of

what humans could accomplish because of our circumstances. he felt america had become a great republic not because we were inherently brilliant or anything but because we have fortunate circumstances at the time of the nation's birth and he had a limited opportunity to move that country farther in the right direction. he believed in what the declaration of independence said, that all men are created equal, and he understood that the founders who signed that document did not successfully enact it. it best -- at best, it was partial equality for white men, and not even all white men at the beginning, but he felt this was an ongoing process, that you could imperfectly, partially attain that goal, approximate it in ways that would add to the happiness of people of all colors everywhere. that is his phrase from 1858. his job was to work within the

basic circumstances he found to move the country in the right direction to the extent that he could and even his greatest long-lasting achievement, the emancipation proclamation, was such a document. it did not free every slave in america. in fact, it only declared freedom for those people who were enslaved behind enemy lines, meeting the people that he could not free at that minute, but he understood that as the union army advanced, millions would be freed, and his sometime ally, sometime critic frederick douglass understood that document would become complete freedom, that it was a deathknell for slavery. it was a response to circumstances, as you say in that passage, but it was also a visionary act that led indirect ways to the country we live in now. host: tj is in ontario, canada on our democratic line. caller: good morning, mr.

inskeep. good to speak to you directly. two questions. one, if lincoln was not assassinated, how would you see the next four years play out as far as the lead up to reconstruction, knowing that he was the ultimate compromiser and all that? so would it have changed much or would he have truly been like the great man that, you know, his moral compass would have guided us through to a better place? so that is one question. and then the second is simply, if you think about, you know, lincoln's character, you know, his interest, impulses, is

there a post-world war ii -- including fdr - forwar -- that you see the same characteristics within him, you know, that sensibility of his own personal character and willingness to put his feet in other people's shoes? thank you. guest: thanks for your question. i am glad you called in and i love that hypothetical. if lincoln had lived, if lincoln had not been assassinated, what would he have done after the war? sometimes when i think about that hypothetical i am reminded, believe it or not, of a rolling stone cover from years ago that basically posited if elvis had not died at 42, here is what he would look like, and you have to wonder about what his later life would have been like and if he would have upheld his legacy or

tarnished it in some way. and so this is really speculation but there are a few things i think we can know and understand. if lincoln was alive for the aftermath of the civil war, from april of 1865 onward over the next several years, if he was president all the way through to 1869, what would have been different? we cannot say for sure but what we can say for sure is that he would have been a different president governing in a different way than his successor, andrew johnson. andrew johnson a southerner who favored the union and stayed loyal to the union through the war and was rewarded with the vice presidency, but when the war was over, he effectively took the position that he wanted the white dominated south to return to power and for the south to be rebuilt or reconstructed in exactly the same way as it had been before, as close as possible without technical official slavery.

he was ok with a kind of racial caste system in a way that lincoln was not. now, lincoln was also come as you said, a compromiser -- also, as you said, a compromiser. he would not necessarily have insisted himself on the very most radical idea of a new south where there was full and immediate equality and voting rights for every black man or black person. he was trying different things in different states. at the end of his life, he was willing to accept a new constitution for the reconstructed state of louisiana, for example, which only theoretically allowed for black men to vote and in practice no black man was being allowed to vote and the most lincoln was willing to say was i wish they had allowed black men to vote or at least some to vote but at least they are loyal to the union. he was doing this state-by-state and operating on that principle i think i mentioned before where

he said that equality is never perfectly attained but it can be constantly approximated, and i think through that period of reconstruction, he would have been trying at least to nudge things more toward the direction of equality wherever he could, which is a different course than the actual president of those years attempted. host: and what about that second question, whether or not there's been a similar person or figure in u.s. politics post-world war ii? guest: thanks for following up. i hesitate to say anybody is a lincolnesque figure today because he is such a gigantic figure, but there are people who tried to follow him. there are politicians of the right and left who invoke lincoln all the time. donald trump did an interview once, a fox news interview with the lincoln memorial. every president invokes lincoln. some attempt to act as he did.

i will mention without saying anybody is like lincoln, joe biden has attempted this kind of politics i described in the book, this kind of politics of reaching out to people you disagree with to find out if there's maybe one thing out of 10 that you agree on and can operate on, and biden was criticized for this. in his first campaign, he made a few remarks about how, as a young senator in the 1970's, he sometimes works with segregationist southern senators, and he was fiercely criticized for this because our modern sensibilities you should ostracize people like that, you should isolate people like that, you should ignore and announce people like that, but i think biden understood the reality that even if somebody is wrong, like a segregationist senator would be, that person still has a vote, and in this case, one of only 100 and the senate, and sometimes you need that vote and can get it for something good.

his idea was to get good votes out of people with bad ideas, which is a thing that lincoln attempted to do and often succeeded in doing. host: there's a question from another steve. there'a t of you out here. on x since we are on the topic of lincoln, steve -- you have a great name, by the way -- we have the 14th amendment because of lincoln. is there not a more clearly worded amendment more understood than that one? guest: i should mention i guess we can say we have the 14th amendment because of lincoln, but it was drafted and passed after his assassination. lincoln was directly involved in getting the 13th amendment through congress just before his death. then it was sent to the people and ultimately ratified. that is the amendment that banned slavery. the 14th amendment was an attempt to effectively give life to an act -- life to and enact

the 13th amendment by giving people equal protection under the law. that meant equal voting rights. it has a passage that is now much under debate and considered by the colorado supreme court among others stating that people who have engaged in insurrection shall not serve in federal offices. that is the constitutional basis for what the colorado state supreme court has recently done in saying that donald trump cannot be on the presidential ballot because he's not eligible for a federal office. there are all kinds of debates about whether this amendment was intended solely to refer to confederates of the war that recently ended or whether it is meant to deal with insurrectionists of all kinds forever. i would note that it is in the constitution, which is permanent, and it does not say a specific rebellion or

insurrection, so it seems to me as a layman, not a supreme court justice, that it does apply now, but it's a fair question as to whether it applies to donald trump in this circumstance. has he been convicted of anything yet, for example? does january 6 count as an insurrection? these are questions that the supreme court will have to wrestle with, the u.s. supreme court will have to wrestle with ultimately, i think. host: darrell is in kentucky on a republican line. good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. your comment about the 14th amendment, i think that anyone who runs for president should not be taken off the ballot of each state. he has the right to run. the supreme court should not

rule on that in different states. the next question about abraham lincoln, why didn't lincoln have a security guard when he was assassinated by john wilkes booth? guest: there's a lot in that second one. let me address that first one your. point of view as i understood it is that the people should vote and nobody should be taken off the ballot. i think as a general proposition that is a legitimate point of view. it is a small d democratic point of view. the opposite argument of course is that we don't have an absolute democracy. any of us cannot vote for anything at any time. we have a democracy within the rule of law and the fundament along is the constitution. so it's going to be fair to at least ask a court is this legitimate or not? does the 14th amendment apply in this way because the people, once upon a time, people who

lived in this country before us, passed a particular law and made a part of the constitution and we need to operate within that law until such time as we collectively may change it? so i think your point of view is a valid point of view but it's also valid to hear what courts have to say. your other question was why didn't he have more security guards at the time of his assassination? there are elaborate theories about this. so many what ifs. the simplest is what if general grant and his wife had accepted an invitation to accompany the lincolns to the theater? it is presumed general grant would have brought better security guards than the president had. what if the one guard that he did have had not moved out of his assigned position to get a better view of the play? there are so many what-ifs about this but one thing is certain, and that is that

lincoln himself did not concern himself terribly with his own personal security and did not think it would make much difference anyway. there was an occasion during the war when one of his friends, joseph gillespie, a character in my book, one of the people a lincoln disagreed with but made friends with and dealt with, came to visit him in washington and said he found the president walking alone on pennsylvania avenue and expressed concern for his security and said, what are you doing? why do you not have guards around you? and lincoln said to him, i think having a bunch of armed guards would be like putting up one fence rail on a fence when the whole fence is down all the way along. that was his analogy for it, which as a famous rail splitter, seems like inappropriate analogy -- like an appropriate analogy. host: paul is an indian on our independent line. caller: good morning. i read a book by egeland called napoleon: a political life and

he differentiates between politics, which is the name-calling and negative advertising type of stuff, and the political, which is the use of statecraft and political capital to accomplish a goal. in the case of lincoln, of course, the unity of slavery. in the case of napoleon, the removal of the laws against jews. i'm wondering if you find that analysis engaging. guest: let's figure this out. are you saying essentially the way this guy is using the language that politics is the bad stuff and political action is the good stuff? caller: yes. guest: i think that is fair enough. that is probably not the way i would use the words or draw the distinction and i would even add another thing. sometimes the bad stuff is mixed in with the good stuff and there certainly are occasions where that is true in lincoln's story. if we think about early in the civil war, when lincoln

disregarded an order by the chief justice of the supreme court to apply the writ of habeas corpus, effectively bringing a man who had been arrested for rebellion into court to show charges against him or release him, and lincoln declined to do that, saying that by his own personal reading of the constitution, he did not have to. that is an occasion where lincoln's authority i think was doubtful at best, but arguably for the greater good and arguably necessary in an unprecedented crisis. i think it would be hard to separate the good stuff from the bad stuff. now, with that said, there are politicians who appealed to our higher instincts and politicians who appeal to our darker instincts, our fears and are hatred -- and our hatreds. lincoln understood in appealing to people that he needed to appeal to their self-interest.

he needed to tell them this is what is in my issue for you. this is why you should be concerned about that. and so, in a way, he was reaching to their fundamental concerns, their fundamental fears. he was speaking to who they were. having done that, he tried to pull them on a higher plane, the most moral plane he thought he could get them to, rather than dragging them down. host: jess is in maryland on our democratic line. caller: good morning. i am a fan of yours on npr so i do appreciate your dialogue and insight. i'm currently teaching an english ap course and we were looking at lincoln's speech and i was listening to your information about his style. now, he may not have been a churchgoer, but he sure used a lot of biblical framework and a lot of comparisons in that gettysburg address, so i think

what i'm hearing you say is that lincoln the politician used his rhetoric to persuade people to see the greater good through their own interests and that may or may not have reflected how he felt personally. i think there is some debate on how he felt about slavery, though i think according to doris kearns goodwin, a young man found living like an animal when his father left, i imagine someone that poor have a difficult time not understanding that channel -- that human chattel is wrong. host: -- guest: i think he always felt slavery was wrong and he said so himself at the end of his life. he said i cannot member a time when i did not believe slavery was wrong. as far as his belief in god, you raise a good point.

lincoln, whatever his personal beliefs, which we can talk about in a moment, lincoln used god and the language of god and biblical language and biblical allusions because it was a way that he could reach people. there was a kind of universal language in the 19th century, when a far higher percentage of the country was more overtly christian then would be the case if we surveyed the whole population today. i think even today we can understand how universal biblical stories are and biblical languages. you and i are talking here a couple days before christmas and it's not that everybody here observes christmas but everybody in this country, to some extent, is suffused with biblical symbolism and understands what it is. it is a language that political leaders can use to reach a lot of people and i think lincoln understood that. lincoln also had private writings in which he referred to god. i think it would be very odd to

think of him as some kind of atheist but he did not endorse any specific creed. he was not willing to give over his beliefs to any particular chain of belief or line of belief in christianity or any other line of faith, but there is a private writing called meditation on the divine will, the term scholars give it today, a scrap of writing in which he says -- i'm paraphrasing -- the will of god prevails. now we have gotten into this war where each side believes that god is on their side but that cannot be true in both cases and it may be true in neither. god may have some purpose entirely separate from where the imagined purposes are of either side in this war and that is a profound thought that's reflected in some of his later public speeches after that meditation. host: william is in pennsylvania

on our republican line. good morning, william. caller: the civil war was not about slavery. it was about the states fighting one another about money. can he talk a little bit about abraham lincoln's secret family? and one more thing. i think it is christian and, two, later on, during the civil war, when you guys turned it into satanism -- host: he did not say the country was not christian. he says he does not have any sample of lincoln's writing saying this was a christian country. guest: why don't i pick up on the idea of what the civil war was fought about? he made the assertion, which is very common, so i'm glad he brought it up, the idea that the civil war was not about slavery. i think you said it was about states fighting over money.

people say it is about states rights. the civil war was started by southern states over slavery for the purpose of preserving slavery and the reason we know this is because they said so, they publicly said so. one of the most famous examples, and not the only one, comes from alexander stephens, who was the vice president of the confederacy, who in early 1861, as the war was about to begin, gave what is known as the cornerstone speech in which he said slavery was the cornerstone of this new republic that he and others were trying to found. he says explicitly in this speech that there had been in america up to them an idea of equality and that this idea of equality was an error. it was a mistake. other people at that time saw america as a land of equality where there was this aberration of slavery, this horrible, evil aberration of slavery that

conflicted with the founding. stevens is saying the opposite, that equality is wrong, and we should build a new nation on this racial caste system, and this is a guy who was about to become the vice president of the confederacy. we can find other examples. so i think we can believe the people who started the war and fired the first shot in why they did that because they so publicly said that it was about slavery. host: next up, we have sherry in richmond, virginia on our independent line. caller: good morning. first, i just wanted to acknowledge the people executed on december 22, 1862 under the order of president lincoln because they were revolting. i have a question. did lincoln ever interact with the europeans who came over, socialist europeans?

you are talking about circumstances. what circumstances -- like, did lincoln actually care about the circumstances of africans who were enslaved, like the work from -- to sunset? did he care about them being starved? you are talking about people's self interest. the self interest of the african and indigenous people were to be free. i don't understand how he actually cared about people. guest: the middle one i don't know anything about, so let me take the third in the first. the third was did lincoln care about the enslaved? that's a really interesting question because when you go into his speeches he does not ever say i had a long conversation with an enslaved man. he did have some and there's one that troubled him for years and he wrote two different long letters about. but it seems clear to me that lincoln did care about the rights of the enslaved, believed

that their treatment was fundamentally wrong, and believed that all his life, and when i say that he was appealing to the interests of white voters, he was realizing he cannot do anything for a black man or a black woman and lessie got a white voter to understand -- woman unless he got a white voter to understand why. that's one of the reasons he talked about equality. he talked about the quality of labor, the right to be paid for your labor. he said in one of his speeches that a black woman -- he specified a black woman, in fact. he said a black woman has the same right to be paid for your labor as i do or as you do, meaning the audience he was speaking to. that is a powerful statement and that is something that would resonate with white workers who wanted fair pay for their labor, and so it seems clear to me that he absolutely did believe in --

he absolutely did have concern for the horrible conditions that enslaved people were kept in. he has another speech where he talks about the structure of laws. he attacked the system, the slave system, and described it as a lock with 100 keys that could not be unlocked without the concurrence of every key. he talked about the way the law after law after law was being added on top of a black man so that he could never have the slightest prospect of freedom. it seems to me he clearly did feel strongly about that. you have to remind me what the first question was. host: it was a story you lay out in great detail in your book about the 38 men. guest: we should talk about that. i really appreciated learning more about this. there are several different ways to understand this story of the execution, which is one of the things that is a criticism of lincoln. he oversaw the largest mass execution in american history is the way it is

normally said. there were native people in minnesota who rose up in rebellion and had reasons to. there had been a treaty which white settlers were violating, which so often was the case throughout american history and of 19th century especially. there was a brutal revolt. they killed women and children as well as men and then the revolt was put down by white troops and more than 300 men were captured and 303 of them were sentenced to death. and there was a general on the scene who wanted them all to be executed, said they all had committed sex crimes, raped women and so forth, had done terrible things, and lincoln said wait, wait a minute. send all the trial transcripts to me. and they were sent to the white house, where lincoln had two lawyers review them all, and the vast majority of them, more than 260 of them, lincoln commuted

the sentences and forbade their execution. he did allow 39 and then one more was -- got a reprieve so it was 38. 38 executions went ahead for people who had been found not to participate in combat but to have participated in massacres. and this is applying a fundamental principle of the laws of war. a soldier in any context is not supposed to be held morally responsible for being a soldier, for engaging in ordinary combat against another soldier, and lincoln felt those men should not be killed, but he approved the death sentences for others who had brutalized civilians, defenseless people in some way. now, we can still say that execution was fundamentally wrong. we can question the fairness of the military tribunals in which these men were tried but lincoln attempted to apply the rules of war here and it's a complicated

story where there is a mass execution but an even larger mass commutation and i have heard that story told in different ways. it can be told as a story of his grace or his wisdom as well as a story of cruelty. it depends on how you look at it. in dayton ohio on our democratic line. caller: good morning, steve. the history there is not too clamorous to a lot of people in this country. my question is, would your book be considered too woke? [laughter] guest: i don't have any idea if anybody is going to ban this book. i'm just trying to tell the truth. when i start one of these books i will suspend -- i will spend a couple of years researching. collectively i spent about a

decade or more than a decade researching the 19th century, and i tried very hard to be fair and to be nuanced, and to get across the complexities and realities of people's lives. is that woke? i don't think so. is it right wing? i don't think that either. i think it is the truth is i have found it. it is often a complicated truth. it is often a tragic truth. but it is also the story of how we got here. it is the story of how we inherited this great country that we have an opportunity to do something with. so, while it is difficult history, i find it on the whole inspiring. host: thank you so much. this is steve inskeep, who is the cohost of "morning edition," and author of the book "differ we must: how lincoln succeeded in a divided america." thank you so much for your time, steve. guest: i really enjoyed it. thank you. host: coming up, we are going to

continue our discussion on shoplifting and retail theft. there has been a lot of news about retail crime lately. we want to know what you are seeing in your community. if that is the case or if you are seeing something else. and how big of a concern this is for you. the numbers are on the screen. you can start calling in, and will be right back. ♪ >> c-span's campaign 2024 coverage continues with the presidential primaries and caucuses. watch live on the c-span network at the -- as the first votes are cast in the upcoming presidential election, come along -- along with speeches and results. getting with the iowa caucuses and the new hampshire primary on january 23. campaign 2024 on c-span. your unfiltered view of politics.

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>> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. we are taking your thoughts on our question of the day, which is, are you concerned about retail crime in your community? we have regional phone lines for this today. if you are in the eastern or central time zones the number to call is (202) 748-8000. if you are in the mountain or pacific time zone, (202) 748-8001. if you would like to text us, that is (202) 748-8003. please be sure to include your name and where you are from. we are on social media on x, also facebook.com. let's go to a hearing earlier this month where the -- excuse me, jason came with u.s. secret service spoke about organized retail crime targets and methods.

>> what does the secret service see as the largest threat for maintaining a safe environment for financial transactions? talk me through that. >> with the holidays hitting, it is high-volume, and places like convenience killers and gas stations seem to be the best, because they can get a lot of numbers very quickly. second, on the edge of new things are what they call wishing, which is the scanning of qr codes which are not actually qr codes. they actually will take you to a site and ask you to apply personal information. that is a new one. then gift card fraud, which is happening more prevalently. people are activating them quickly with limited amounts of money, when you buy the gift card you are loading the dollar up. combating that is tough. it is a bit more heavy on the retailers and there is a convenience store level on the locals. the person using these atm's,

they need to make sure that those devices are legitimate. as best i can. he always say give it a tug. it might come apart. you never know. host: let's go to your calls now. tim is in wisconsin on our democratic line caller:. thank you so much, tim. caller:hello. good morning, everybody. happy holidays. i would just like to state i don't truly understand, i don't really think it should be a political issue. i'm sure a lot of people doing the smash and grab our -- in rural western wisconsin somebody who has been in rural mississippi or alabama or louisiana, or anywhere, rolex watches get stolen in san francisco or new york. it is a bad deal and it needs to be stopped and dealt with severely. a lot of these people, these states they are coming in from, and they are red states.

nine of the 10 poorest states in the country are red states. they've got low wages, high cost, poor health care. they watch fox news all day and get brainwashed by people smashing high-end stores and these weak cities that nine out of 10 of us could never afford to walk in and buy anything. so why do they concern themselves with that so much? that should be left up to the local goods. the police departments, the da's, and if they don't like it, get rid and do what you have to do. that don't concern me much here. no, so wisconsin where i live, i've never seen anybody arrested in a store in 10 years or more, you know? i'm not going to knock myself out worrying about it. host: thank you, tim.

danny is in arizona on our republican line. go ahead, danny. caller: good morning. actually i'm in host: yuma, arizona. host:thank you so much for correcting me. go ahead. caller: first off, mary to everybody. second, l.a., san francisco, philadelphia, chicago, my hometown, new york, it is all smash and grab. they're going to the miracle mile in chicago. that is scary. i wish you guys would pay more attention to what is going on down here on the border in lucasville, arizona in eagle pass. people that can give you what is actually happening instead of just glossing over it like it is nothing. so, the democrats can come out looking like the sweethearts and they are destroying our country with what is going on down here, kimberly. host: thank you for your call. let's go to aaron in griffith,

indiana. go ahead. caller: yes, hi, good morning and happy holidays, everyone. host: good morning. i just wanted to say that in my area, i was close to chicago, so i see the news, i hear what everyone is talking about. but i am also aware that that is not really the issue that i see. i guess that is not where i think our efforts should be going. talking about, you know, people coming out and smash and grab, and some of that is certainly a pushback against a general rolling vibe. you know, stuff is not working, we're just going to do whatever we want. that may be contributed to it. the part of that is also because there is so little support, i think, for workers, for people trying to be able to afford these goods. i think what should concern us

is a 30% increase in prices in the last few years. decreases in inflation. 60% inflation attribute into corporate profits. not because costs were rising. these are economists saying this. i think that is a bigger crime that we should be focusing on. millions of dollars in bonuses to banks who fail. things like that. they should be a bigger concern for all of us than retail crime with individuals going after, you know, smash and grab or whatever. someone mentioned before, why does that concern us? i cannot help think that is what we think retail crime looks like. i'm going based off of the comments i heard earlier waste on what the perpetrators seem to look like in their minds. that's all i wanted to say. thank you very much. host: let's talk to brian in

farmersville, ohio, on our republican line. are you there? looks like we lost -- oh, go ahead. caller: good morning. merry christmas to everyone as well. i guess i just wanted to ask you a question and pose a question to everyone, you know? what is actually the definition of crime? that seems to be what the problem is in this country. we have sex in this country -- and i was watching earlier and listening to the gentleman in the representative good of california, you know. he was interested in trying to come with policy problems, but he is the policy problem. when you change what the definition of crime is, you change the outcome of what people do on a daily basis and what they are going to be held accountable for. you know? i listened to the social worker

earlier. guess what? i don't see anybody coming in and mobbing the bread aisle at your local grocery department, so that is kind of nonsense also. so, when you end up with a problem, once again, of the policy problems -- and i will just put it out. look, it is all on social. states where these democrats know better for you, see better for you, do better for you, and they are going to tell you what you can and can't do, what they don't really want to do their job, and they marginalize what crime is. so, you know, merry christmas to everyone. when we figure out how to elect proper people that understand the definition camino, of what crime is, we will probably go forward a little more united. it is a new year around the corner. god bless everyone. have a great day. host: gerald is in richardson, texas. go ahead, gerald. caller: yeah, good morning.

merry christmas the world. i started in finance 35 years ago. i have done collections making loans -- are you there? host: i am here. go ahead, gerald. caller: ok. it was quiet. i have done everything. i have reviewed thousands of applications and look for cars and done repossessions. here is the one thing i've noticed about financial institutions. in this is retail crime. it is a form of it, but i've noticed that there is just a phenomenal amount of fraud, and when you look at the overall picture, i have come to the conclusion that we don't prosecute the crimes, the fraud.

i'm speaking specifically of the paper end of it, but people turn in unbelievable, ridiculous things, and they are never, ever, ever prosecuted. i have never seen one. i know there is some out there that have been, but i think that is one place to kind of go back and look at and start there and go, why that? because are we encouraging organized crime and people who are knowledgeable? especially on the internet crimes and crimes against elderly? i think it mushrooms from some point, anyway. but, anyway, it is frustrating never to see it prosecuted, and that is it. host: you mentioned organized crime there, gerald. last week the president and ceo of the council on criminal justice joined us on this program to talk about u.s. crime trends, and here is him

responding to a callers questions about why the rico act, which relates to organized crime, is not used to go after the individuals behind organized retail theft. >> i think some of that is happening, but it is a great point, especially in a context where we hearing a lot from law enforcement and retailers about the threshold. that is the amount that is set in each individual state at which the amount of goods stolen becomes a felony as opposed to a misdemeanor, and is therefore subject to stiffer penalties. in many states over the past 10 or 15 years have raised those thresholds. many of which just raised them enough to keep pace with inflation. those amounts were set in the 1980's and had not been changed. so you move something for $500, 1982, up to $1000 today. have not kept up with inflation. you would have to raise it to about $1200 to keep up with inflation. but that is getting a lot of blame for the sense of impunity that people have.

the caller's point is important, because as people well know, in drug cases the police tend to make repeated buys from somebody an order to get that quantity up to an amount that will bring stiff penalties. it seems like the same would be in operation here. you can take somebody down after the single offense, or you can play at a different way. i'm not saying it is a right or wrong way to do it, it just appears to me between that kind of tactic and the rico statute that there is a legal regime in place to go after guys who are doing this in an organized way. host: next up we have mary in philadelphia. morning, mary. sorry there, mary. i don't know if -- there we go. eric, can you hear us now? caller: i can hear you. good morning, c-span. i have worked with the government for 45 years.

i am a retired state investigator. and we have more white-collar crimes that you just played the tape where organized crimes where we lose more money based on this, and it is not being prosecuted. you have to have specialized prosecutors on board, and investigators on board to prosecute primarily white-collar crimes. and i lived in the city where the security guard was murdered. you know, he was unarmed, the security guard, and it was a high-end retail store. they had removed the merchandise from sale, and he came back to the store and murdered the security guard. you know, so, he had a high history of drug problems. you know, in philadelphia and in

the state of pennsylvania we have removed social programs from general assistance programs for single people, people that were on drugs, people that were exit offenders, that -- ex-offenders, people that needed social services to conform to constructive lives. when you remove a program that was in place for 60 years to provide this money to nonprofits and also religious organizations, this is what we are looking at. even immigration reform. we have a law in place where it is illegal to rent to an undocumented person in this country, based on security

reasons. you have the american people that will hire them, that will rent to them, to avoid paying taxes. so, they need to look at the laws that are in place, and enforce the laws that are in place. and you have to have special security agents in place to enforce these laws and prosecute. host: thank you, mary. i want to follow up a bit more about that rico law, which stands for the racketeer influenced and corrupt organizations act statute. it is from 1970 and seeks to strengthen the legal tools and evidence gathering by establishing penal prohibitions and providing enhanced sanctions and new remedies for dealing with the unlawful activities of those engaged in organized crimes. and the power of rico lies in its conspiracy provision, that allows tying together apparently unrelated crimes with a common objective into a prosecutable

pattern of racketeering. in addition, rico provides for severe penalties and permits a defendant to be convicted and separately punished for both the underlying crimes that constitute the pattern of racketeering activity, and for a substantive violation of rico. this is one of the laws that some lawmakers are seeking to use to combat organized retail crime. next up is betty in lake orion michigan. -- lake orion, michigan. go ahead, betty. caller: yes, on the smash and grabs, i think any crime of theft, they ought to be punished, because if they don't get punished it is just going to keep going. the kids have seen what they are doing, and then it is going to be higher and higher. then the retail that we have to bite, they have to raise the smash and grab stuff. they need to convict them, throw them in jail, and throw the key

away. host: betty, have you seen much retail theft yourself in your community? caller: one time in our community and the surrounding areas. i'm around the detroit area. and, you know, they are stealing cars, they are breaking into houses, and the police are not doing anything. host: ok. next up we have shirley in ohio. ahead, surely. caller: yes, good morning. you, c-span. i want to comment on the retail crime, retail theft. i see a lot of it in my hom city, and a lot of it is su. seen people take out a couple of pieces ofeat. they take out a couple of pieces of bread. if you look around the store you would see a lot of packages that is already open, and that anybody smashing and grabbing in

the bread aisle. they do't smash and grab, they justake what they want out of the package. i elor people who don't have and the ones who have criticized the ones that don't have. we should all be neighborly and helping people. i'm not going toything for my family members for christmas because they don't need it. i'm going to give to other people. pick a family and give a be $500 or $1000 to them th inow is behind on their rent. you n e it in your neighborhood. we areotumb and we are not blind, but i'm going to help somebody else, because americans e greedy. we are a greedy nation. the more we get the mo w want. they should be punished. thank you. host: thank you. on faceboo brendan gerardi says in sponse to the queson, they are concerned with rail crime in their community. not really.

police and mayor are cracking down on it, which is nice. markets in fort lauderdale, florida. go ahead, mark. caller: yes, hello, good morning, happy everybody. you showed that guy from some kind of think tank before. i actually saw him on c-span earlier this week. and what needs to be emphasized is, when he is asked by both a caller and was reiterated by the host i'm pretty sure, he did say crime is down. generally. you know, you could always be specific. and now to follow it up with this thing about retail theft, i understand that these flash mobs, these -- where they come in and tear up a store. that is getting a lot of attention. it happens. it is not all that different from things that have happened

in the past, when organized groups want to steal. they figure out ways to steal. but once again, i think c-span should actually do a bit better job of researching this topic you brought up. if you look it up and research it, there is more information to indicate retail theft is down from what it was not too long ago. you got to factor in the years of the pandemic. retail theft in general is down. host: mark, i have some data for you there. we mentioned it in the first hour, but i will mention it again, this piece from the new york times, which does say retail theft has been lower this year in most of the country than it was a few years ago, according to police data. some exceptions, including new york city, exist. but in most major cities shoplifting incidents have fallen 7%.

organized retail crime in which multiple individual steel products to later sell on the black market is a real phenomenon, but organized groups were likely responsible for just about 5% of the store merchandise that disappeared from 2016 to 2020. so, yes, there is data to support what you are saying there, mark. caller: in i still on the air? host: yes, you are. caller: i must have missed that, because i will be honest, i only watch you from 7:00 on. your topic, people are calling up, retail theft is terrible, that is terrible, they are not getting prosecuted, this, that, and the other, and you basically invited them to say that. in a situation where they are wrong. host: ok. thank you for that, mark. next up we have don in sacramento, california. caller: i agree with him, and i

also agree with the woman who was talking about the white-collar crime. anytime you've got a president that don't care nothing about crime, what you think is going to happen to the people down at the bottom? this man committed all of these crimes. these people looking at him. they say, if he can get a lot -- it away with crime, i'm going to try myself. people coming to america because they have heard how crooked this man is. he getting away with murder, near murder. host: please keep the language clean. go ahead. caller: you know, that is why everything is so screwed up. this man is making everybody feel like, yeah, i'm committing crimes and ain't nobody saying nothing about it. the only people saying anything is the same people, the insane people letting him make --

letting him get away with everything. that's all i have to say. host: ok. matthew is in palmdale, california. go ahead, matthew. caller: hi. about the retail crime stuff, i went to the store to get my mom some flowers, and i was just at the dumpsters along the backside of the store, and there is a $.99 store on one side and a home depot on the other. i pull up to one dumpster and i looked and i pulled out a pair of milwaukee gloves, a brand-new framing hammer, a soldering gun, and a torch, plus a chainsaw. it was all still in the box and everything. i loaded that stuff up, and, asi am pulling away -- we were out in california it was the summer time, so it was pretty hot -- a sketchy guy on a bicycle comes around the corner and he is looking at me and i am looking at him.

i think he was the guy that stole it. what i think what happened was he took stuff out of the store and maybe he was in his truck and they got his license plate number. he takes off and goes around where the dumpster is at and he heard the police sirens coming for him, maybe something else, so he got spooked and he threw it in the dumpster. and then i come along and i scored big time. [laughs] host: what did you do with the items? caller: i kept them. host: during that hearing we referenced last week representative magaziner referenced this idea of stolen items being resold online or

elsewhere. [video clip] rep. magaziner: we are talking about sophisticated organizations that are doing this to make money by selling these on the black market or online or what have you. can you talk about what your agencies are doing at that point of resale to try and disrupt what these organizations are doing? i think it is easier to catch them at the resale point than it is at the store level. >> thank you for that question. this will help us understand those involved in e-commerce platforms and third-party sellers and resellers. that is something that our innovation lab and cross-border crime center are working closely on.

>> we live in the dark web. those are great areas to make your case. we also have to prove it. it is those elements for us that are putting a point on what you said. >> we focus on the darknet. a lot of movement of narcotics, weapons, and stolen goods. we look at those cases -- sometimes if it is in masse, we will look at the organization. if it is individualized, we can determine where the merchandise is coming from. we look for ways to identify those networks and disrupt them through those patterns. the goal is to identify and work up the chain. sometimes identifying the money movement that comes from the sale of goods and helps us identify where these networks are. host: in that clip, they were referencing the inform act which

is a piece of legislation that took effect this year. there is an article about it from cnbc. a bipartisan bill requires online marketplaces to disclose and verify the identity of its sellers to deter the sale of stolen, counterfeit, or harmful products. the building after retailers and trade groups lobbied congress and blamed online marketplaces such as ebay and amazon for what they called a surge in retail theft. online marketplaces that do not comply could face more than $50,000 in fines for each violation. let's hear from rick in rock springs, wyoming. good morning. caller: good morning. host: go ahead. caller: yeah, i think it all stemmed from -- there has always been retail theft. but it exploded when defund the police started and then it went

to the democratic da's to do absolutely nothing about it. the people feel emboldened that they can get away from that and get away with anything. i think that is where the problem lies. host: when you hear the data about shoplifting being down about 7% nationwide, what do you think about that? caller: i don't believe it. those stats -- besides, the source that it came from, the washington post, they are not real journalists. they are a bunch of hacks. host: that was actually from the new york times. they were citing data from police departments nationwide. caller: they are the same as the post. they are like you guys. cnn is the same way. they are all one-sided. host: we are c-span but thank you for your call.

next we have kim in iowa. go ahead. caller: i am sorry about that guy that called in. the retail theft and what i read about it from amazon, when people order from amazon they have different labels, like shein. i believe they were talking about the retail theft coming from the corporation of amazon and all of these others stealing intellectual property. shein could be a separate company by itself but amazon has given them -- jacking up the prices when shein's regular prices are lower. that is the retail theft from the corporations. what they are trying to get us to see is people smashing and

grabbing. we have some people that do that, yeah, but the major ones is the corporation like amazon and ebay. the propaganda problem is they say, think about the smash and grab and they show things from 2016. just like that guy. he is coming on with propaganda. most of it is from corporations. thank you. host: i want to bring up a bit more data on what numbers we do have about retail theft. this comes from the council on criminal justice which has been widely cited across these organizations with data they gathered from police departments. here are a couple of takeaways from the council on committal justice. shoplifting incidents reported to police have rebounded since falling dramatically in 24 large american cities during 2020.

whether the overall tally is up or down compared with pre-pandemic levels depends on the inclusion of new york city. with new york numbers included reported incidents were 16% higher in the study compared to the first half of 2019. without new york the number was 7% lower. new york and los angeles had the largest increases in reported shoplifting among the studied cities. st. petersburg and st. paul had the largest decreases. the median value of goods stolen in shoplifting incidents grew from $75 in 2019 to roughly $100 in 2021. looking at 90% of incidents and excluding those in the top 10% in terms of value, the value of stolen goods in shoplifting incidents in 2021 was $756 or less, a $184 increase from 2019.

let's hear from gary in kentucky. good morning. caller: i am calling in reference to matthew, the guy from california, that retrieved what he thought was stolen goods from the dumpster. you do not keep those. you turn them in because there is an inventory take and any something is stolen people can track them down. two wrongs do not make a right. thank you. host: joe is in cliffside park, new jersey. go ahead. caller: good morning. this is joe from cliffside. i want to address the problems like communities like ours have. there is a lot of hatred going on in this community and it all stems politically from who

should be president and why. which affects crime, which affects anything going on in the community. they are not working to solve problems. plus, any type of situation where theft is occurring and violence and things like that and where prosecution is required, most of it is not addressed. it is not complained about. i think america has to wake up. things have to change and the change has to start with the community and the family. i hope and pray that is the case. merry christmas and god bless you all. host: we have a comment from dan in pennsylvania who says, retail insurance reimburses theft losses which iree costs. drastically cutting mail-order

would not make it practical to rob. now we go to los angeles, california. caller: peace be unto you. my comment is that values, principles and values, ethics, are not being taught in the home. this brings about the problem in society. what takes place in the home has an effect in society. this country was founded on criminal activity. going to africa and kidnapping people and making them into slaves. the foundation of this nation is on criminal behavior. we have to teach values and ethics in the home to our boys and girls or they will think it

is fun to commit criminal behavior, criminal activity. thank you. host: we have another comment by text message from jt in new mexico. in new mexico, walmart h put locked glass closurehe school supplies. why this be necessary? are low income mothers monsters? janet is in pittsburgh. good morning. caller: good morning. it was stated the retail theft is down 7%. in theory, you can make statistics say anything you want. the reason the retail theft seems to be down according to the 7% is that the prosecutors

are not prosecuting the crimes. host: those were thefts reported to police, not necessarily prosecuted. go ahead. caller: well, the prosecution is not prosecuting. in california, you can steal up to $950. go into this store and that store, it is never prosecuted. how can the retail theft be down? a note on what the previous caller said. people did not go to africa and kidnap people for slavery. the blacks in africa sold the blacks to the slaveholders. that is an erroneous thing. they were never kidnapped. host: that is not accurate. while there were tribes that sold people there were also kidnappings of enslaved people

in africa. let's go to freddie in burlington, north carolina. caller: oh, man, that woman stole my thunder. host: go ahead anyway. caller: what? host: you can go ahead still with your idea. caller: like she said, the reason the crime is down is because it is not being prosecuted and reported. it is like schools. what do they do? stop charging the kids. you need to check about africa. they had a one-way door that was built by the african kings and queens. host: i want to get back to this idea of shoplifting and the prosecution. from the data from the council

of committed justice, the share of shoplifting incidents considered felonies nearly doubled from about 8% prior to the onset of the pandemic to almost 16% in the first half of 2023. state statutes set felony theft dollar thresholds. they are referring to different monetary values that will tie into whether summit is prosecuted and at what level. next we have anwar in tacoma park. caller: good morning. how are you? i was calling to comment again about a gentleman who said the crime in the city and d.c. and the cvs stores are locking

everything. the shelves are empty. i actually saw someone running out the other day with the assistant manager chasing them while he had food in his hand. when we talk about crime we have to talk about trump and we have to talk about what was going on and how crime -- when people see you can do whatever you want and no one says anything about what you are doing as far as robbing and trying to steal the election, people see that also and wonder what is going on. as far as the people who have limited knowledge of the history of african-americans in this country, africans did not build ships and send them over here with black people in them. i suggest to those people take a look at the roots. they absolutely were kidnapped and taken.

this whole country was stolen from the native americans. i find it hypocritical people talk about the history of this country but have such a psychotic view that they do not recognize they have stolen and murdered and killed people. here we are and you are living in the united states, would you call the united states, which is called the greatest land theft in the world. these people have a strange idea and corporate greed is our biggest problem. not people stealing in stores. it is those people stealing billions of dollars from us and they make us fight each other. we have to fight for the scraps. that is all i have to say. thank you. host: thank you. the target ceo, according to this article in cnbc, claims customers are saying thank you for them locking up some merchandise with target fighting

the theft at stores by locking up everyday items. the ceo claims customers are saying thank you because that is keeping merchandise in stock. target has repeatedly said theft is cutting into its profits at a time when it has struggled to grow. next we have ishmael in indianapolis, indiana. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i want to quick comment about the root of this problem, the crime of shoplifting. the country is so rich in poverty is rising. i am not defending these criminals but there is a lot of families struggling day after day.

the government cut some of those programs. even europeans have the same problems we have. we have social programs -- and you can call them socialist or communist -- we spend our money on wars and other stuff. we cannot spend that money inside this country. [indiscernible] we need to be united. thank you for taking my call. host: next up we have hattie in houston, texas.

good morning. caller: hi, good morning. glad you took my call. i would like to comment on a couple of people talking. my grandmother was cherokee and everything was stolen. can you hear me? host: yes, i can hear you. caller: for them saying they came over and stole the land -- and my dad was from africa and everything -- and for them to say because the rich people had them enslaved, this is not right the way some of these peoples talk. i don't know who taught them that. and then i want to, on the crime going on -- and then i want to

comment on the crime going on. you have heard a lot of people saying trump is not paying any tax and they let him get away with all of this. if it was biden -- and he did not do nothing -- but they said, he needs to be impeached. but here is trump -- that man needs to be in jail. i don't understand why they do that. everybody has had equal opportunity -- host: just to bring it back to the retail crime. are you concerned about this type of theft and shoplifting in your community? are you seeing any of it? caller: yes, i have been seeing a lot of that.

they are stealing in stores and everything else. i have been seeing a lot of that in this store. host: you yourself or are you seeing it in the news? caller: on the news because i think the lord i am in a nice neighborhood. some of my relatives have people breaking into their houses and into the store. in houston there is a lot of that going on. every day you wake up there is kids being killed. host: thank you for your call. john is in massachusetts. good morning, john. oh, maybe we have lost john. in the meantime, we will go to joseph in maryland and see if we can get john back. joseph, are you there? caller: good morning. i am. happy holidays to everybody in the whole world, if they are listening. i want to touch on two quick things and thank you for your

work today. this is about slavery. to all the people who keep saying somebody sent those people over here -- and i look like a white person by the way. my great-grandmother grew up on a mohawk indian reservation in new york. they say these people were sent over here by their own families. i do not care how you sent somebody over. white people bought them and sold them or black people sold them or got rid of the criminals. i don't care how a person was brought into slavery. it is not ok. it will never be ok no matter who did it. as far as the stores go, this is part of a game, in my opinion, and it is not a game for the struggling poor people. if you look at south africa, they have gone through what we are going through. a couple years back they let people go onto the farms, kill people, take the farmland. now all the neighborhoods have chains and fences around them.

all of the stores and the poor neighborhoods are gone. only rich neighborhoods have stores. security guards take people to the stores. they are going to have computer cops. we are putting ourselves in a corner and we are not stopping it. i hope we stop it and the corporations and greed are doing it. i am not trying to go on a rant but it is serious. patience, kindness, and if you have any questions, i will respond. host: i want to bring up something you highlighted. a story from nbc washington that talks about businesses turning to artificial intelligence to try to limit shoplifting. it is saying to catch a shoplifter businesses turn to ai to stop retail theft. and this is -- this is an article about security cameras that look for suspicious

activity. human eyes may not be able to but the shopkeeper is counting on some thing else that could. high-tech security, artificial intelligence software developed by a french company that plugs into the cameras. the program looks for suspicious body activity from shoppers and records them in real time. every time somebody takes an item from the store, if they put it inside the pocket or trousers or jacket, it sends an alert so you can see that before they leave. i wonder if some of the theft you have seen or experienced or heard about is changing any of your shopping behaviors or self. -- behaviors yourself. caller: it is funny -- and thank you, you are awesome. my friend is a capitol police officer and some people ran out of the store and the managers were screaming. i was like, let those people go.

don't get involved in that. he was thinking he should be doing something. this crime is everywhere. people are struggling. this is hundreds of years of stuff. hundreds of years culminating. as far as -- i am all for it. you cannot hurt a person. stealing someone's stuff is hurting them. i want to say, america, the indian country, the chinese country, these people are going to school today. their children are doing stuff today. they are respecting their elders. tonight they are going to ask their elders questions and our kids are not doing any school work and their beating of their elders. they, the outside world, is taking us down i believe. the whole world is culminating to get rid of america. why? because everyone wants to leave china and come here. china does not like that. they want to leave india and

come here. they don't like that so what do they do? get rid of their competitor. everybody is trying to get rid of us. they're done with us. we are only 300 million people. they have 1.5 billion people. they seem like they are done with america. host: thank you for your call, joseph. we have time for one more. let's go to don in new orleans, louisiana. caller: very good. the vagrancy laws of europe convicted many europeans that came to america and even australia on confit ships. -- convict ships. many came to america under the word criminal. we are talking about retail. we are talking about department stores, clothing, but we are not

talking about the retail of food. by law, working in a restaurant or supermarket or hotel, we throw away tons of food every night. every night food has been thrown away that has not been sold and even food that has been sold has a substantial markup for profit and to compensate for the throwaway of food. when we look at the pricing of food and the power of the united states department of agriculture for housing and paying farmers not to grow certain crops, and the policies that go with it, the food is astronomical when you talk about the availability of fresh foods and community gardens. you cannot call someone -- food,

commerce, citizenship, civic engagement, those are not communities. those places you are seeing these so-called shopliftings are where people live. where you live does not mean it is a community. if we focus on building true communities in this country and having a local currency, if you will, and not just the u.s. tender, the dollar, but a local currency where you engage with your community and the issues that address it. whether it is juvenile delicacy, education, and all of the things that make a civil society, i think we will start to have headwind. we cannot have states getting money from the federal government and these big infrastructure deals -- host: we are about out of time

for the day but thank you for your call. thank you to everyone who edition of "washington journal" at 7:00 a.m. eastern. until then, have a wonderful day and thank you for watching. ♪ [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2023] >> this week watch washington journal holiday others week series featuring live segments each morning with a new writer. on sunday former trump administration official jerome smith and chris silverton with their book underserved

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