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library of congress, c-span brings you books that shaped america. in this program, mark twain's "adventures of huckleberry finn." written as a sequel, the book is often called the great american novel. in the book huckleberry finn -- he escapes down the mississippi river. along the way they encounter steamships. mark twain used a number of dialects and colloquial expressions to go straight light along the mississippi, satire,

hypocrisy and racism. since the publication, huckleberry finn has been controversial and relevant. >> welcome to books that shaped america, a series that looks at how books have influenced we are today. in partnership with the library of congress, the series is exploring different viewpoints and we are glad you are joining us. so far, we looked at foundations of expansion, slavery and the legal system. tonight, we travel along the mississippi river and explore a book called one of the great american novels. published in 1884, it was

controversial from the beginni but sold more than 23 million copies worldwide and has had a major impact on american literature. our guest is an english professor. professor leavy, in 1884, what was america? >> it was a chaotic place. you could see an extraordinary number of violence, they loved covering it. norma's anxiety about

immigration. the size of the government and national debt. promises of legal and social equality after the american civil war, we are starting to run aground separate from society. the other was a large national debate over children, people talked about compulsory public education where they thought about ideas like student

centeredness, that they were becoming violent, lawless and out of control. huckleberry finn is ripped from today's headlines, when people looked at huckleberry finn, they saw a kid who was all over the newspapers who had his own wisdom, understood nature, sawyer, forming gangs.

at the same time he was the villain of the narrative. >> when did you get hooked? >> mark twain voice is special, it's incredible, the book is incredibly funny and tragic, it celebrates american resources and people, landscapes that are scathing, it's incredibly slippery, you are you have got it you can't ever get it. it took 20 years the book and understand what was happening, but i did not. i have not taught it in a decade.

mark twain is magnificent. >> all-american writing comes from that. nothing before, nothing as good sense. what you think about that quote? >> the way people really spoke. he believed people had literary value. he was obsessed with listening to people.

they would pace back and forth. he would torture himself and on that level, he was spot on. hemingway was not the verse, he won't be the last. >> what was the impact in 1885? >> to be clear, it's interesting, it did well. from 1885 to 1895, it was a top 10 selling book.

the reviews were positive but mixed. if we are having a conversation about race, there were a lot of african-american newspapers they were not touching the book. quotes we will look at some reviews. the partner with endeavor is the library of congress. had an impact with who we are. the library of congress on huckleberry finn says the

encounters with hypocrisy and other evils full of dialogue and colloquial expressions paved the way for many writers including hemingway and william faulkner. what does it represent in a larger sense? >> one of the books that shaped america must introduce my first person to take over the narrative and a complicated core.

i don't think you have a young ult stor, everything from home alone, spy kids, harry potter. the ones who can make change. huckleberry finn is the linchpin. >> you he read a book by the name -- >> that is the first line. how often do you grab someone by the lapels? you know about me that i am the

voice you hear from. even those contractions were uncommon. it's mind blowing. gem is a complicated character. everyone is a game player, a liar. they're watching from the edge of our seats. he is who u.s. him to be based on who you are. he was buried under racial slurs

, stereotypes, a racist dialects. some people emphasize if it's about seeing through prejudice that there is a complex person you can't miss. it is a book about seeing through prejudice. the surface is dense and thick. >> mark twain, attempting to find the narrative. persons attempting to find a plot will be shorder of the offer by the chief of ordinance.

lots to unpack there. >> it is the most analyzed book in american history. it goes in the wrong direction. the ing about twain's you have to think of him with ple deniability. he wants tma sure you know he is joking. >> copyright. >> he had a previous book where he lost a lot of money. you have the copyright going.

it's complicated, i could cite in part because i taught some courses. if you look in my book, the book has strong antiracist messages. this day and age you should be considerate. they claim it was the best book.

i've talked to students i think i will teach the book in the future. i look forward to having those moments. it's a legitimate question. >> number of dialects used. the shadings have not been done in a haphazard manner. >> do you want to make -- read

the last line? >> it's an important line because there are multiplforms of english. it's a beautiful metaphor. twain was the founding member of the folklore society. he cared about dialects and rehearsed, practiced, he is proud. don't look for a motive. >> good evening.

we appreciate your being with us. this is an interactive series. dilantin participate. if you can't get through on the phone line, here's the text number. 202-748-8003. please include your first name and your city if you would. let's give you a snapshot of america in 1884. the population was abo 50 million. the economic panic of the credit

shortage, grover cleveland became the president. in mark twain's hometown, hannibal, missouri. we want to show you some video of this town north of st. louis. how important was he for the book? >> crucial. he was nostalgic about his childhood. a lot of the things that happened to him including them horrible thing and better

things. it's based on people he knew. it is at >> 200 times the n-word is used in hulk finn. >> i think it is hard to get around. mark twain uses a then respectful name for african-americans, when he went up on stage he used respectful language until he was in huckleberry finn's voice. there is a famous story in 1884 where he scolds a white country boy for using the n-word.

he was trying too something, he felt it was in his voice and there were lots of satirical uses for it. it's a lot. the best argument you can make for it is to say you can't escape racism. the book is not trying to tell you we are overt or doing better. that is the best reason for it. it's archaic, a mistake.

>> here's what he has to say. >> do you think huckleberry finn should still be taught in english classes or edited? >> no, it should not be edited and should not be taught. i am a historian though -- no. i don't think it should be edited for anyone to read it. for young readers, a teacher should help them understand who mark twain was in the context of that book, it's a perfect way to help young people get

comfortable with ideas like ironing. ideas like racism. no. i would never advocate that the book be censored for the use of language, and certainly not for the stories. it is a great classic in american literature. huckleberry finn was a pivotal american literature and in terms of creating it, that writers black or white or otherwise had been responding to the power ever since. >> what did you hear? >> first of all, i think i see

suggests there are issues of how you teach a book. is it mandatory. mean able -- the book has tremendous riches and value and i agree with that. to play devil's advocate, let's not talk about an american book, a world book. there are translations. all of those places don't have translations but somehow, the book manages to communicate profoundly all over the world. of course initial epithets have been removed as well and there were movies that could be made.

to say that the book must be regarded as a mistake, with all apologies. >> norman rockwell did some paintings on the scenes of the book. he took eight years to write this book. where did he write it? >> he wrote it at a family member's house. he wrote tom sawyer, prince and the pauper. put it down to get a couple more chapters and he pushed right through it in 1883, including

the parts he hated writing. >> the adventures of huckleberry finn, published in 1884 in canada and the u.k.. it's all close to 60,000 copies and 23 million copies worldwide in the first band was in 1885 in concorde, massachusetts. >> huck swears, smokes. uses a racial epithet. it's not a very friendly book towards organized religion. the dimestore novels were incredibly violent, it was like the social media or video games

of their time. twain, he was not a boy supposed to have control over the book. >> the concorde public library committee said the whole book is of a class that is mor profitle for the slums or respectable people. let's hear from some of your viewers. nancy, good evening. >> hello. i am thrilled you are viewing the value of this book. i am a teacher, and i have read it to fourth-graders for probably 15 years, and i just -- children had a hard time understanding why huck was

prejudiced, and the stories help explain it. the one question -- huck and buck, the names are so similar, they are both boys who were taught not to hate but to go against other people not for any reason other than color or name. i've never really heard a critique and they were taught by adults. >> we will have the professor respond in two seconds, but i want to ask you, is it

appropriate for fourth-graders to read this book? >> i felt uncomfortable at times, honestly. i never said the n-word, i always said slaves because i personally could not. the value of the book. he wrote letters using the dialects. just the death -- death who wish quiet, shy and hit issues in the family. >> thank you, let's hear about it. >> that was fantastic. the book is about why we are teaching children to hate and huck's experience with race as well as buck who hates the shepherdson's, and he admires

them and does not know why he is supposed to kill them and he expects to diet he does. it draws that together very closely, mark twain was very good with patterns and even at the end when huck witnesses buck being killed, he says he has bad dreams about it to this day. clearly a traumatic point. i love that idea because something that is not mentioned often enough is huck's abuse, isolated, he's eaten frequently, he is told he is nothing and it's forgotten with the wonderful boy had stuff

he is terribly lonesome, he is looking for family surrogates, jim is the closest thing he has to a father. he is going through a monumentally vulnerable place that a lot of children have to go through. it is great that you bring your children to that place and invite them to express themselves. >> as i mentioned at the beginning, we are going to review -- for -- for -- review some reviews. mark twain might bed the edison of our literature, there is no limit to his inventive genius. the best proof of its range and originality is found in this book. the next call for our guest comes from jim in sierra vista, arizona. jim: great show tonight. many generations of kids have, you know, been raised on

huckleberry finn and all of that, and because of the texture that he brought to the -- american literature, my question is, given today's tribalism and its polarity, could such a book be written today, and what would be the reaction? >> thank you sir. >> thank you for the question. i think that a book which respects the children's voice, a child's voice, and gives the child a complicated emotional life is being written today. one of the things lov about huckleberry finn is that it r portrays american democracy as just a mess of partisanship, of people who are, to bst, easily conned, looking for a narrative that reinforces their prior assumption of in groups and out

groups, he betrays it as a violent civilization. with great promise. i would counter by saying that books are being written. in terms of his maximalist approach to language, that is a tougher one. there is a lot of pressure in the publishing industry right now to not be maximalist about language, to not take chances or write about people who are not in your group. see where you go from there. i do agree that there is pressure right now. >> i want to reread -- read a review from the southern atlantic constitution, newspaper. it is difficult to believe that the critics who have criticized it have read it, in connection with the prince and the popper, and marks a clear an advanced -- clear advanced in the progression of twain's literary message and portrays

life and character in the southwest. that's from atlanta in 1885. >> he sense of scription agents out with his book, below the mason dixon line, but he did not go below louisville. for all we talk about race and controversy with this book, but joseph mccarthy tried to have the book banned because of its portrayal of white southerners, which he found offensive. >> chuck, detroit, go ahead. >> good evening. this is a great show, i just wanted to express a question to the professor, which comes from an instructor of mine who had an interesting take. her take was that this was mark twain's attempt to curtail

children who were anxious to leave the farm and go into preindustrial cities of the united states. and i thought that was a very interesting perspective, and one i had not heard before. i wonder if the author could address the question, particularly in terms of that the book, jim and huck, no matter where they went, were always outcasts. >> thank you, chuck, that's an interesting question, i have never heard that before. the bookcase -- book is, i want to say, extraordinarily powerful in celebrating nation hurt and solitude. -- in and solitude. it does make some of those small towns in arkansas and missouri look awfully bad, however. twain himself was conflicted about cities. i think that he was not conflicted about society. huck and jim can only be friends on the raft.

any time they go back into society, they have to go back into their psychic hiding holes. and you take the beautiful and warm and interesting relationship at the center of the book, it really can't exist with a lot of people. >> we recently visited the huckleberry finn freedom center in hannibal, missouri, and went to a museum called jim's journey, here's a look at that. >> i am the founding director here at jim's journey, at the huck finn freedom center. i am a hannibal native, fifth-generation missourian, and we have a few things here at jim's journey. first of all, we tried to expose residents to samuel clemens as a humanitarian, and then we talk about the african-american here

-- community here. and finally, we are the only place in the country that uplifts daniel quarrels, a protector jim. -- prototype for jim in the adventures of huckleberry finn. he actually lived and died here in hannibal. samuel clemens met uncle daniel and aunt hannah on the local farm in florida, missouri, where he was born, and was back there in summers to play and visit with his cousins, and that's how he came to know daniel. he knew him as old daniel. we know from his own writings that that is where they met, and they formed that relationship which bonded, and they came to appreciate daniel as a man, as a father, as a husband, as a

caretaker and that is how we -- he was betrayed in huckleberry finn. he was the first white author to portray an enslaved person as a real person, more than an object. samuel clemens describes him as one of the brightest hands belonging to his uncle. he talks about daniel and identifies him as a prototype for jim. there is a quote in the autobiography that says that uncle daniel, my prototype for jim. i want people to see and learn from that. here at jim's journey, we are about teaching. we want to research, teach and preserve. this history that has not necessarily been fully shared. in the history of hannibal. here, we not only show that

history in the fact that we contributed to the growth of the community, but that we were here from the beginning and the emancipated daniel was here. >> we thank the museum for allowing us in. now joining us from cambridge, massachusetts is jocelyn chadwick. she is with the hard work -- harvard graduate school of education and then national counselors of teache english, the author of this book. the jim dynamo: reading race in huckleberry finn. -- die lemma, reading race in huckleberry finn. tell us about your book. >> the focus of my book is to look at the character of not just jim, but the state of america at the time and the state of the freedmen versus the freemen versus the 19th century. -- during the 19th century.

and trying to help student and classroom teaching -- students and classroom teachers understand just how important this particular text is, how pivotal and important it is, and how complex jim's character is, as well as huckleberry finn's. it's a rhetorical deep dive into who these characters are, what america was like at this time, and looking not just at the characters in the story, but also the concept of what was happening in society at that time. >> professor chadwick, you taught english for many years at high school level. did you teach huck finn? >> absolutely. it was my juniors. and to be honest, father, who first read it to me when i was seven, he read it to meet allowed on his knee -- out loud

on his knee, and it was my juniors that helped me to understand that i needed to go back to graduate school so that i could truly understand the depth and the power, i needed to understand the writing strategy and have more information about the. -- time, and i think that one class of juniors and my mother -- thank that one class of juniors and my mother for sending me back to graduate school. at that point in irving texas i had been a learner in our history and of these characters. that moment, that was my pivotal moment when i realized that yes, i was teaching it, i enjoyed teaching it, i wanted an african american -- was an african-american teacher in a predominantly white school, and the students felt sorry and uncomfortable three for reading

it. i was excited for them to read it. i had to unwrap all of that. >> i understand that you and andrew leaving know each other, is there a group of mark twain's that know each other? -- scholars that know each other? >> there is, there is a huge group of twain scholars. and we do not always agree. but we do listen and learn from each other. >> professor leavy. >> i love jocelyn's book, i am happy that she's here, the jim die lemma was a profound development in my understanding of the book. huck is the voice, but maybe should not be the protagonist. and she goes back to the book to see how the shape of the book is

engineered by his presence, how often you do something that if you just look at it for two seconds you see how smart it is, how interesting it is. >> let's hear from our caller in san diego. you are on with andrew leavy, jocelyn chadwick, and huck aware finn. please go ahead. >> i am a longtime teacher as well, almost 50 years. one of the things i discovered in reading huck finn over and over is that i am not absolute sure no matter how good i am at expedition and texturing, i'm not absolutely sure that most students, let's say, prior to the age of about 15, can understand, no matter how good i am at explaining, can understand the psychological complexity of

that book. a fundamental question in today's society with regard to the racial divide is relative to white people, do you ever forget that you are white? which sounds like a perfectly absurd question, unless you change the words. >> let's leave it there. jocelyn chadwick, if you want to start, that would be fine. >> i do. there was an earlier caller who says that she teaches huck finn to fourth graders. and to that person, if she is still on, i would say there is another story, a true story told word for word, and i heard it, and a wonderful elementary in new york in al meyer uses -- we

work at that school, and the teacher and the principal present that story as a question that those fourth graders ask about race and language. it's very important. and i think that there are other works of twain that this particular generation should -- jen z is very different from the children i started teaching. they are processing and carrying quite a load. there is one entry with huck finn, i agree, huck finn is a hard road to daschle road to hope, -- bro to -- road to hoe, but it reflects to us more today than when twain wrote it. publishing in 18 -- published in 1885. that sense of two people coming together from two different spheres of the universe.

and we feel huckleberry finn beginning to think about people of color in a different way in the adventures of tom sawyer, again the day one of my least favorite twain books. and i had to reread it and i came out it -- of the -- it, and i realized it's about the evolution of huckleberry finn into a person who sees other people, sees the other, and will break bread with the other. the other being a slave. we have the full-fledged huck finn in his own book there are three primary characters, along with everybody else. the professor, where twain sets him up very early so that we see not all african-americans are slaves at that time in the 19th

century, their work freemen, born free, and then you had slaves. and there is huckleberry finn. the two of them have to be together in order for those changes to occur, not only for that but to come through and assert at the very end of this novel, a very powerful procmation that while he wants is for him he is more than willing to sacrifice that freedom to regain his family in order to do the right thing. we have this novel about voice and choice and identity, and the novel resonates more, and i can tell you that i work with schools at this vy ment from texas to virginia to new york and new jerseyand part of it is that you have to help teachers understand how to teach

the work. there are times why thought -- it ends up in high school classrooms, it's easy for someone like myself to do that heavy lift or answer those very hard questions, which i tell students. to say the n-word is very hard for me. i have to do a mental thing in my head, it's not just twain, it's toni morrison, and a number of writers. the irony here, and i'm coming to an end, the irony that bothers me most is why we come up with such a great literary text, do not put rap music and other things at the same level. it's ok in rap music and other things. but when we look at literature it is not. it should be, because as i said, just recently at the boston book festival, that word has blood on it.

and students have to understand that. that is a part of our american tapestry put in fiction. so that students can experience it from a different -- safe distance in a classroom. >> this program, we have been showing sketches that are in the original edition of the adventures of huckleberry finn. ew campbell. who was that? >> it was a young new york artist who got his big break during the adventures of huckleberry finn. he went on to have a pretty successful career. illustrating novels, including african american novels by paul dunbar for instance. is was his big break. >> lucy is calling in from new rk, good evening two. >> thank you for taking my call. my daughter was the onl student in an all-white, and they played it as an audiobook, and he was so devastating to her because every

time they set the n-word, everybody would look at her. and she said all she could do was put her head in her hands. and she came home hysterical. i just don't think it is appropriate for middle school. >> andrew leavy. >> i disagree, i'm sorry your daughter had to go through that. my expense, they don't want me to say this, but mike university is primarily white, -- by university is primarily white, and i would not choose to isolate persons of color in that way. the book teaches better in more interracial environments, older students. i am so sorry for your daughter, and if i can say anything, it is that she is not the only person who has testified in that way. >> justin chadwick. -- jocelyn chadwick. >> part of the issue is that teachers don't know how to approach these texts.

they don't know what resources there are for them. they don't know how to address students. i was the only african-american english teacher, and it was predominantly white, i was often the only african-american english major. i get that, and i'm not saying that the teacher was right, because i disagree with that, what are the issues, and we are working on a new book about that now, is how do we help teachers understand how to teach critical text, in this case mark twain? and how can we say in middle school there is another text you can use, you don't have to use huckleberry finn, there are poems and essays and other texts that say and carry the same message, but not in the way that huck finn does.

it would take more mature students. it's not meant for kids. it is met for more mature teenagers who are taking and complex ways. and gen z would be that way. thank daughter, who is sitting in that classroom, -- i think your daughter, who is sitting in the classroom, i was one of a few african-american students in a class in texas and i remember my teacher reading a poem talking about god bending down, and i thought oh my goodness, and i told my parents i could not believe what i heard. i am sure your daughter having you as a support, and you pushing back was very helpful.

i do think that teachers do need more support from scholars and folks such as myself, having had classroom experience and being a scholar, to navigate that text. >> our goal tonight is to talk about huckleberry finn as a book that shaped america. if you want to learn more about the author, we have a companion podcast. matt is a professor of american literature and mark twain studies at l virus college in new york, and a scholar in residence at the center's remarks to -- mark twain studies. if you would like to get that podcast, we -- you can scan the qr code and that will take you there. due to is the area code for all of us. if you live in the eastern central time zone and you want to talk about huckleberry finn,

and if you want to send a text message we take those as well, at the number on your screen. please include your first name and your city if you would. let's hear from karen out of san francisco. >> hi, thank you for taking my call. i read a lot of literature, but i am not a sophisticated reader, not really analytical. but i can tell you that huckleberry finn i read as a child and i loved it, as an adventure, and then read it as an adult and loved it so much more. i find it to be a celebration of the human spirit, and there is a universality to it. i know it has special meaning in

our country because of our general history with segregation and racism, but i think that around the world, as you mentioned early on the program, it has been translated and very much appreciated. i would just say that i think the character, huckleberry finn, is just one of the most incredible characters ever created. my only question would be, just real quickly, when we say that it shaped america, is there in a specific way or just because we have such an in depth and intense story? >> this is a good time to ask both of our guests how has this book shaped america, let's start with jocelyn chadwick up in cambridge? >> prior to mark twain and huck

finn, no fiction other than works like thomas nelson page, which -- praise slavery, no real fiction existed about -- that really tackled the horrors of slavery. the demeaning quality of state slavery. as well as creating the humanness of these people who were slaves, and presenting free people who were never slaves, but people of color. we have not had a word like that. we had slave narratives, which were very popular in the 19th century, amazingly popular. and when i teach this novel to juniors or seniors around the country, or try to help with free service teachers before they enter the classroom, we always think about the slave

narratives like frederick douglass or henry barton brown and others. the novel itself comes out, and it puts slavery in the running -- and in the rning and the dangers and e encounters and the hypocrisy, somebody mentioned religion earlier, but it's not just religion. it's the hypocrisy that goes with religion. and the brutality of saying i'm going to shoot all of you if you don't leave because you people, in the dark of the night, he is foreshadowing the kkk. this is a book that puts a mirror to america of the 19th century and says here is what we are. this is what we look like. and you jump that into 2023, and you look at that novel and say here is a book that is still putting a mirror in front of us and showing us how we are

behaving. in terms of racism, sexism, all of the isms. is this what we want to be or can we be better? >> beautifully put. i will just add, as jocelyn covered race and slavery so well, it had a huge impact shipping our feelings about children's, children's voices, schooling, parenting, vulnerable children, if you read histories of childhood or books about childhood or articles, the name huck finn turns up quickly. it has a universality with what children go through today. and twain was the one who said that history does not repeat but it rhymes. he recognizes the patterns of american history, and nowhere -- knows where the rhymes are. so much of what he wrote still

hits in 2023. it hit heart -- hits hard still. >> please go ahead, edward, with your question about huck finn. >> with all the moral ambiguities and hypocrisies in the book, is this not about a 14-year-old white boy who discovers jim as a human being because slave traders are after them and huck says to jim, huck, jim, they are after us. is that not what the book was about? >> ever, did you read this in school? >> i was because professor, i toted a couple times. >> waited you teach? >> historically black universities and white universities as well. >> we appreciate it. and leaving. >> that is an important scene in the book. there is another moment in the book where huck and jim wonder

if someone is looking out for them. they are hiding on jackson island and both running away from someone. huck has a father who about to kill him, and jim running from watson, who wants to sell him downriver. huck puts on a and goes over to the town and tries to ask around, and this woman immediately cease their him and says, because he does not do anything a girl does, that he does not threaten people write or -- a needle right, or if she tosses something at him, he asked like so many wh not wear a skirt. he teaches huck at that he goes back to jim and says, they're after us. they're only after jim. but he learned from the william, if jender is a social construct, so too is race.

it's the kind of subtle stuff that's all over that book. it's also a sign about how much the book is about how children learn, thousand they apply one lesson from one part of their life to another part of their life. it's a crucial moment. i'm glad you called attention to it, edward. >> we mentioned several times about huk finn in popular -- huk finn in popular -- huck finn in popular culture. here's a compilation of some old movies about it. >> we're sure to see it in ohio. >> there'sst there's only about 12 houses there. >> i won't misit. i'll smell that free state. i want to be free. nobody going to take jim back now. i ain't a slave no more. i ain't want to be a slave no m. >> they called him a troublemaker. >> come on, sis! >> they called him a liar. >> cyive set it up, pa get run

over by an elephant. >> they called him every name in the book. >> the duke. >> but everything in his life was changed. when one man called him friend. >> best friend i ever had. >> we want to credit mgm and disney and the warner brothers for those movie clips. the adventures of huckleberry finn translated into more than 50 languages. 15 film adaptations starting in 1918. tv proams, cartoons, play, all

of those things. jocelyn chadwick is it important that huck finn be in popular culture? >> i think it's important that huck finn be in popular culture. i'm sort of torn because reading that book is so -- in so many ways is its own version of popular culture as opposed to the films and the cartoons. there's just some texts to me, just to me that cannot be filmed. "the color purple" can't be filmed. it was tried. it didn't work. and the -- the works of toni morrison, for example. there are some works that you can't bring all of that emotion and those actual words, i mean, here we are. we are talking about taking out the word nigger out of huck

finn, that's been done, but the idea is, it's supposed to hurt. that's the whole intent. it's not supposed to be a happy word. it's not supposed to be a cool word. and just taking ited on and saying we're just going to put black there, it's not the same impact or import. it takes all the sting away. it takes all of huck's -- at one point in the last thirder of the novel when huck finally understands he has absolutely, positively hurt jim, and jim called him trash, and huck from that point on, huck never uses the word nigger again until he's pretending to be tom czar and trying to help jim get out of slavery. and that's important. because that means there's a change with him. and i've had students who say ok, does this mean that huck

isn't racist anymore? that doesn't mean he isn't racist anymore. we haven't actually established that he's racist. he's a product of his period. and his exposure to jim and jim's exposure to huck helps both of them understand that people are people. and you accept them for who that person is. as opposed to calling them something. i' seen some of those film, like the one with mickey rooney, and it's so different from the book. i'm not going to say that's a bad thing, i'm just going to say it doesn't take the place of the actual text. >> the poet t.s. elliot had something to say about huck finn. it is huck who gives the book style. the river gives the book its form. the river makes the book a great book. mark twain is a native and the river god is his god.

next call, terry, in kansas city, missouri. go ahead. >> hi. i had a quick comment, the parts that made me laugh the most was the blood oath and the duke's recitation of shake conspiracy. then i have a question, will you speak to the point in the book when huck realizes blacks feel the same about their families as whites. >> andrew levy? >> i love those part taos. the shakespeare is great. people think shakespeare is a kind of sacred literary icon but in the 18 40's and 18 50's, that is kind of how he was performed. people would show up at the theater with their rubbish and throw it at the actors if they didn't like what they were seeing. so the second part of the question was -- >> when huck realizes blacks

feel the same about their families as the whites do. >> what do you think about that scene yourself? >> it just really struck me. i was so moved his, you know, kind of getting -- i call it getting hit in the head with a brick. like huck just, dong! realizes what's going on. and when jim's talking about. >> we have to leave it there. professor levy? >> it's what jocelyn said the whole book is about. seeing the other. can you see the other? and there are moments where, from huck's point of view, he sees jim as a person, the slave he's supposed to be see, the semihuman he's supposed to be see, he sees a human being just like him. those are powerful moments. what happens next is, i believe,

where the booking becomes more complex. >> mark twain lived from 1835 to 1910. a little of his legacy today. there are 44 schools in the u.s. name for mark twain. there's the mark twain national forest in missouri. the'twain, california, in the northern part of the state. there's a school, a street, a library igeany named after mark twain and of course there's the kennedy center mark twain prize for american humor. here in washington. we want to thank jocelyn chadwick for joining us for part of this program. she's with the harvard graduate school of education and the national council on teachers of english. thank you professor chadwick for being with us. she spent quite a bit of time talking abteaching mark twain. we have two more teachers from north shore high school in glenhead, new york who teach mark twain as well. here's what they had to say.

>> twain gives us a chance to see what we would never see in history books. which is the interfacing, engaging of a poor white boy, son of an abusive, alcoholic, father, from whom he runs. it's the impetus of the book from huck's point of view. then he meets a runaway slave. and the two of them meet a commiseration of that. huck calls them us and we, it's a revolutionary moment. we have this poor white boy and an enslaved person who has a family who is doing his level best to get out of his hor cial situation. and they meet and they go down the river together and they talk about everying from slavery, religion, to the stars. to the taste of food. to what it's like to wake up from a dream and be lost.

jim actually has a moment where he mentors huck on how to be a good man. and huck eats it up. because he's never seen an adult man show how to be a good man. none of the whites, the white men he's supposed to celebrate have shown him how to be a good man. they're all uniformly repugnant. they're violent, abusive. jim is kind, caringering and thoughtful and pays attention to him. it makes me say when you say, we don't make room to see the in between. i think it's probably because it scares us to imagine we might be in the in between right now. and i wonder, when we look at huck finn today, what's the biggest error we make?

what are we doing wrong when we talk about this? clearly we're not doing certain things right. >> i mean one of the mistwaiks make is we focus so much on the language. and the language is jarring. when we look at, for example, the use of the n-word, it's jarring for many of us. but it's only symptomatic, it's only evidence of a larger structure. language is born out of a reality. huc -- huck finn is brn out of a time. the language isn't born out of itself. it's born out of laws, economic structure, it's born out of a culture. that's he the hard part for many of us to really understand. it's one of those thing, we're talking about racism, structural racism, the history of racism, even the history of slavery, those are very difficult things to teach. because we have to reconstruct the time. you have to reconstruct what are

the laws? you have to construct what were the economic structures? what are the customs and attitudes. those were uncomfortable. so in many respect, the language feels uncomfortable because we've not quite mastered the history of the times. and the language becomes an entry point to realize, this is difficult. but that's just the tip of the iceberg. >> we want to thank north shore high school teachers, emanuel blanchard jr. and mike dlever for having that conversation for us. let's go back to your calls. carrie in north ridge, california. >> good evening. i wanted to respond to some of the callers. i wonder what jim's vocation would have been since in florida they said the slaves had vocation training, you know. i just think the teacher that

said she was uncomfortable with saying the n-word she didn't have a problem with saying slave. i'm just wondering what her response would have been if the child that she was teaching would have asked, which one is the slave? we're kind of missing some other stuff here. >> we're going to have to leave it there. andrew levy, your response to her? >> both huck and jim are escaping, they're escaping together. at the end of the book it turns out they were both freeor quite some time. and some people feel that mark twain was in the just interested in issues of freedom and slavery related to african-americans of the time period but that he was interested in issuesf freedom and slavery for all people. and what it would take to truly

live freely. but it's kind of extraordinary. the last page we find out they've been free for over 100 pages. >> julie from montana. >> hi. i'm kind of tuning in late so i apologize for my question. i have a comment and a question. for many year i was an elementary teacher. i had the laura ingall's looks in my classroom. around 10 years ago or so the library association threw out the laura ingalls' award said she -- one of the characters said she didn't see anyone for miles around while living in indian territory and native americans didn't like that and protested her books. with that in mind, i'm a substitute teacher now in the local school hours, do i address the n-word that's use red peteedly over and over and over in the huck finn book?

>> we've talked about this a couple of time but what's your condensed answer, with the laure prairie series as well. >> my condensed answer would be i stopped teaching huckleberry finn and i'm a professor at a college and i have tenure and i -- i stopped teaching because i think it's inconsiderate for me to teach it in certain circumstances. i go back to -- should i go back to teaching it, there would be norms in the classroom in terms of what, nothing said aloud which i've had in the classroom. there'd be intense historical context work. there'd be offramps for students. that's at college level. i'm not sure for elementary students. >> when you teach it, is it about the dialect, the use of

language, slavery? >> the bulk of the conversation is absolutely about voice, language, you know, there's so many positives about this book but one of the things it is, it is a pipeline to the 19th century. the way people thought. the way people actually spoke. the -- everyone thinks everyone listened to stephen foster and had parasols and went to church on sunday. it was chaotic by our standards. and huck finn lets you see the chaos of our past like few booksdo. i think the important thing is that your students are trusted and are able to speak their minds and liberated to not be in the classroom in the first place if they don't want to be and to leave the classroom if they want to. >> andrew levy is also the author of "huck finn's america: mark twain and the era that shapes his masterpiece."

the original manuscript is at the buffalo, erie county library in new york. have you seen the original manuscript? >> i've seen it on cd r.o.m., on the internet, but never eye-to-eye. face-to-face. >> when you look at it what does his scribblings and markups tell you? >> you can tell, no word processor. so 1,000 changes in a manuscript like that might not look like much to us but it was a lot back then. you can pick up pattern in his revision that speak to his intent. what he's thinking about. i noted during my work he spent a lot of time, especially in the last part of the book, putting in words that lead you to think about contemporary context like

the conviction release system, which was slavery by another name. it was a prison building boom and 90% of the people in prisons were african-americans and they were put to work or leased out for nothing. the made references to dogs. he added them in. may not have seemed like much but degrees were the guards and everyone knew that. he did stuff like that at the end which you just saw him turning up the volume on the satire and the links to the contemporary day. >> "the advench -- "the adventures of huckleberry finn" is one of 100 books on the list put out by the library of congress as books that shaped america. we want to know what imrks think shaped america. go to the website, c-span.org/booksthatshapedameric a. there's li at the top, cck on that. send us a video.

we might use it othe air we want to show you some of the responses we got to the question, what is a book that shaped america in your view? >> the book i think changed america is "unthinkable" by representative jamie raskin. i believe it changed america because it shed light on the insurrection of january 6 and provided americans a context and broader perspective for just exactly what happened on january 6 and the great threat we have going on because of the trump administration, donald trump, and the ongoing threat to our democracy. >> my name is marsha, i'm from indianapolis, indiana. a book that i think changed america is the autobiography of malcolm x. it told about his life, racism and religion, really shifted how black americans see themselves and how they identify within the spaces we occupy today.

it was inspiring. >> i think the book that shaped america is "beloved" by toni morrison. because it's a classic that all high schoolers read. i think it's accessible. it's a great way into a discussion of the history of race and slavery in america. >> my name is greg from mansfield, massachusetts. i think a book that shaped america is "shat ertd sword," it's an amazing retelling of the battle of midway and it shows we can question our history, analyze and learn more about it over time. >> i'm tony from san diego a book that i think shaped america is "the jungle," also my favorite book. i think it's a combination of a great kind of summation of immigrant story in america as well as the beginning of the labor rights movement which is also really important. i think it occurred at a a time

that was pivotal in american history. just a great boo overall. >> send us your idea of a book that shaped america. go to c-span.org/booksthatshapedameric a. viewer input sup at the top. bob, lookout mountain, tennessee. thanks for holding. we're talking about huckleberry finn. >> i read the book as an eighth grader because i was required to, and then when i retired i took my boat down the tennessee river, up the mississippi, to about the iowa line and came down and tried to float and of course we have dams now and locks they didn't have. but it was a wild river. i'm just curious, there was a certain piece to me on traveling

that, i did about three weeks. i'm curious, i find the river is a place of relaxation. i want to know what y'all thought. >> thank you, sir we appreciate that. when did you do that? >> year and a half ago. >> wow. ok. thanks. >> there's a travel writer,than rabon who got himself a raft, couldn't even get a proper raft, it was more like a small boat he decided to go down the mississippi, simulating huck and jim's trip, he was terrified most of the time to go down that river in 18 40's, in a raft, occasionally a canoe. the peril as well as the sense of confidence, the sense of beauty, the god-like status of the river. that was in the book too. thank you, good perspective. important one to bring in. >> there were other books on the library of congress' list of

books that shaped america that came from the twain, huckleberry finn every remark published in 1884. here are some of those other books on the list. >> jacob rhys dumonted poor new york city living conditions with his work "how the other half lives" in 1890 "the wizard of oz" was published in 1900. in 1909, sarah bradford's book "harriet: the moses of her people" about harriet tubman. w.e.b. dubois authored "the souls of blackfolk" in 1903. here are more books from the lie brir of congress' lists of -- list of 100 books that shaped america. ida toreville wrote about john d. rockefeller's standard oil company.

upton sinclair's tri-kri teak of the meatpacking industry was published in 1906. "the education of henry adams" was published in 1907. and william james' work "pragmatism" was also published in 1907. >> there's the website if you go, you can see all 100 books that the library says e books that shaped america. you can also inpuyo ideas to the library of congress. our partner in this series. professor, you, as you watched that list said i've got one for you. what book did you want to bring up? >> it's an awful one but highly influential. owner's manual for model trveg's that henry ford wrote. after how to run your car was then 200 pages of conspiracy theory, including anti-semitism. it went out with millions of cars. not on any list. >> did not make the library's

list. >> i wanted to make a comment on what the woman said, ta her daughter was in school and when the n-word was said everybody looked at her. unfortunately, during that time, that was the narrative. that was the language that was spoken. i think by trying to remove that language out of these books, puts us back. we should look at it and go oh my gosh. look how far we've come. >> thank you, ma'am. we have to leave it there. last word on that topic? >> i think that -- the racial slur has continued to have salience. all i can tell you is the historian, professor, has heard too many people say it was devastating and traumatic to be in a room where it was read aloud. i think you've heard many people

including jocelyn chadwick say that it needs to hurt. but we can control how it hurts. and how we have the conversation about it. >> professor levy we asked you to reed one of your favorite passages from the book. what are you going to read? >> the very last couple of sentences. what's happened at the end of the book is that tom czar has set up the lab rat romanticized escape plan for jim which almost gets tom killed. almost gets jim reimprisoned. turns t m knew the whole time jim was free. huck is outraged by this. huck doesn't think he can go back because his father is still alive and out for him. jim tells huck that he's seen his father's corpse 200 pages earlier. everyone is free. hen h krurvetion k hears his father is dead, nothing.

says nothing. tom's most well known for the next lines. there ain't nothing more to write about. i'm not glad of it. if i'd known what trouble it was to make a book i wouldn't have tackled it. i ain't going to no more. aunt sally is going to adopt me and civilize me, i can't stand it. i've been there before. yours truly, huck finn. >> andrew levy, author of "huck finn's america. the era that shaped twain's masterpiece." thank you to the viewers and to our other guest jocelyn chadwick of harvard. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2023] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

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