announcer: weeknights at 9 p.m. eastern, are a 10 part series, "books that shaped america." exploring key pieces of literature that have had a profound impact on our country. tonight, we will feature the 1980 book "free to choose," with lenny even sign, lecture of economic at the university of economics santa barbara. watch c-span's encore presentation of books that shaped america weeknights at 9 p.m. eastern on c-span or go to c-span.org to view the series and learn more about each book featured. ♪ announcer: c-span is your unfiltered view of government. funded by these television companies and more, including comcast. >> oh, you think this is just a community center? no, it's way more than that. >> comcast is partnering with 1,000 community centers to

create wi-fi enabled listings so students from low income families can get the tools they need to get them ready for anything. announcer: comcast supports c-span as a public serce, along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seato democracy. ♪ announcer: in partnership with the library of congress, c-span brings you books that shaped america. our series explores key works of literature that have had a profound impact on the country. in this program, the 1937 novel,

"their eyes were watching god." the author moved to florida with her family as a young girl in the 1890's and later set several of her stories there. her book begins on jenny crawford's porch in eatonville. young janie mary's a much younger logan, but after she finds no love, she leaves him for joe starks, who becomes the mayor of eatonville. after his death, she falls in love with a younger man, named tk. and they move south to work as migrant farmers in the everglades. over the course of the book, she discovers her sense of self and her voice. a writer of the harlem renaissance, she also worked as an anthropologist and folklorist, using her own experiences and her research to inform her work. their eyes -- "their eyes were watching god" explores issues of race and gender and paints a

picture of african-american life and community in the south. ♪ that shaped america. our c-span series that looks at how books throughout our history have influenced who we are today. in partnership with the library of congress, this ten week series has been exploring different topics, eras and viewpoints, and we are glad you are with us for this look throug history. tonight the novel their eyes were watching god wtten in 1937 by zora neale hurston. the book he said in florida during the early 1900s and became a classic of the harlem renaissance and has been highly influential on african-american literature and in women's literature as well. our guest this evening to help us understand the impact of their eyes were watching god used tiffany ruby patterson a history professor at vanderbilt university also chair of the

african-american diaspora studies department and author of this book, zora neale hurston and a history of southern life. professor, thanks for coming up from nashville. we appreciate it. why do you think their eyes were watching god was included on the library of congress' list of books that shaped america? >> zora neale hurston's book is unique in the 1930s. it's a book about love. it's a book about family and an all-black town. over 50 black towns emerged in this period in the south in the united states. i think the subject matter, the female character, the issue of gender as well as race has captured the public's

imagination. it's a beautiful novel because it is a love story and it's a complicated love story yet it fits in this time period. it sets itself apart from some of the other novels in this period in that it focuses on this wholesome community and the characters of janie and her three husbands and she seeks to find her own self as a person and as a woman i think is timely in a way that even more so than it would have been in 1937 i think it is very timely. >> the book is set in the early 1900s in then rural florida. what was life like in the south end in the united states at that time?

>> guest: she was born in 91 in 1891. the south had only been 20 or 30 years removed from the civil war over slavery and race. after the civil war, segregation began to dominate american society, not that it wasn't there before because it was, but it became chiseled in stone after the civil war so she comes in to the world and grows up in the early 20th century. she grows up in eatonville florida. she was born i believe in alabama and her father and his family to this new area. he founded a church and that is where she spent her childhood and for her a very wholesome communy ofll-black people,

famil church, schools and so on. i think it was a different kind of story at the time it came out. her book would be in the time period of the native son that was looked at and had a character that had been severely damaged by the experience in the united states and it was set in the real world where it was different than many other novels coming out later in this country. >> host: does the jim crow era play a part in their eyes were watching god? >> i think it does because if you look back at the explosion of black towns in thi period there were over 50 of them that emerged at the end of the 19th century well into the 20th century into the 10s. these were places that given the violence of jim crow, give the

lynchings, the segregation, all that had gone to shape the country, black towns were safe places. they have their own administration and police departments. they had community tt they could count on in these small black cities. and if so, it's a historical change that was unique to the early 20th century. >> host: relations within the african-american community of self played a large role in this book as well, correct? >> yes, it does. for one thing it allowed for african-americans not only to build their own schools and churches and become mayors of towns to attend to economic issues and political issues in the safety of that community, not in fighting for places to

live in bigger cities that often created ghettos to keep black people from mixing with other groups of people. that did not happen in these all-black towns. people knew each other, they were often related to each other. it was a different world. >> host: what about gender roles? >> guest: gender roles are shaped by the country even in all-black towns. i think zora neale hurston is responding to some of those gender issues without a doubt and so that women because hurston was able to go to college and keep in mind you had the emergence of many black colleges in this period. so gender roles become important because it allowed women to be

more than just a housewife and a mother or work. it allowed women to become doctors and lawyers and teachers and not that they hadn't done that before, but it changes in the 20th century. it becomes more common. >> host: where did the title come from, their eyes were watching god? >> guest: i was intrigued by the title because i think it's, one, about the spirituality tt was so common to these towns. they all had a churches. hurston's father was a minister if i remember correctly. i may be wrong about that but i think he was a minister, and he, every one of the towns had churches. god, i think is related to theng

belief that life can be better, that they can have these black towns and build their own churches. they can have their own joe clark's porch which is in eatonville, which is a community center for all intents and purposes. they can have a safety that they couldn't always have in other towns. so that was important. after all, hurston wrote a lot about religion, not just christian religion. she would eventually write about black religious practices and the caribbean and of those places. so, spirituality of black culture is at the center of hurston's life. >> host: as i mentioned at the beginning, our partner in this endeavor books that shaped america is the library of congress and they have a first edition of zora neale hurston's 1937 their eyes were watching god and on their website books

that shaped america this is what they say about the book. although it was published in 1937, it wasn't until the 1970s that "their eyes were watching god" became a master work. it had been initially rejected by african-american critics as simplistic. in part because it's characters spoke in dialect. alice walker's 1975 maze magazine essay looking for zora lead to a reevaluation that has considered a pave the way for younger black writers such as alice walker and toni morrison. two things i want to ask about from 1937 another 30 plus years before it became impactful; is that a correct statement? >> guest: that is correct and the point is why did it take 30 years. and something in what you read is important. black people, especially bus

drivers, those that are getting educations, wanting to break out of our jim crow system. let's not forget that these black towns emerged after the consolidation of american apartheid. american society had restricted black people from living close to whites. they lived in restricted areas in the big cities. they lived in restct areas in rural areas. and so, this shaped american culture and american socty as well. and so their eyes are watching god goes inside of one of the communities and what you see there is a wholesome community. you see black people and families, you see a novel about black love. a novel about striving for a

better life, and i think the novel became, for me i know i can speak more directly about what is mea for me -- it's beautiful novel. and you see people living life, not lynchings, not destroyed by urban realities as some of the early novels correctly painted, living in a chicago or new york for example. you saw families struggling to build better lives in this novel. so it's a wholesome novel. it's a novel informed by the spiritual beliefs, informed by respect for the positions that people held, and you don't see a great deal of violence in these novels. >> host: throughout the program this evening, we are going to be showing several

sketches, and many of them are by the late artist jerry pinckney. to give an idea what life was like in the early 1900s, the population was approaching about 100 million. eatonville, florida, itself was incorporated in 1887. it's the oldest black inc. a incorporated town in the u., and of course, the setting for this book. there were jim crow laws throughout the south. state and local statutes, legaling segregation, and the great migration of african-americans north ben around 1910, about 6 million african-americans moved from the southern u.s. up into these industrial u.s. detroit, chicago, new york et cetera, et cetera. while, we visited eatonville, florida, and this is the setting for much of this book. and we want to show you what eatonville looks like today.

>> we are here in a special place that commemorates the importance of zora neale hurston and the role that she has played and continues to play in identifying eatonville as a literary destination. now, this street, east kennedy boulevard, originally was a part of the road system called the old highway. so during the time of zora neale hurston -- she was born in 1891, died in 1960 -- her parents brought her to eatonville when she was basically a toddler. so in the early 1900s, this roadway, now called east kennedy boulevard, was actually the old highway. it was the link between northeast or range county, maitland and northwest range county. so, the road itself is a

historic road place. now, we are in a space that looks a lot different from modern eatonville or eatonville of today. in fact, this is a place that harkens back to what we call old of florida. and we are standing in a place where zora neale hurston is known to have done some of her writing. at a certain point, she came back and forth to eatonville, and at times when she did stay here, we call this tuxedo junction. it's actually located right on the shores of the lake. it is a place, as i say, that she is known to have done some of her writing. now we are at the matilda house museum, and we are here because

mosley, known as tillie, was zora neale hurston's best friend as a child. matilda was a director founder of the town of eatonville and joe clarke. especially in a place like florida in the south. the porch is the social gathering place for family and friends, and here we are stationed are positioned in the port. what you see here is it represents the essence of zora neale hurston as a folklorist. she was the writer of the classic "their eyes were watching god," but also a folklorist and anthropologist. what you see in this photograph, is she's actually collecting folklore material. and this home i think represents the kind of tidying because you

have a family, he founding family. you have the connection between the childhood friendships that zora neale hurston and until he tilly hadand maintained throught adulthood. so, you have that social interaction combined with the establishment of the town and incorporated municipalities of first incorporated african-american municipalities of the united states, and the writer, the genius of zora neale hurston that makes and establishes eatonville as a literary destination for readers around the globe. >> host: so, professor tiffany ruby patterson, we spent a lot of time in eatonville, but this book is considered a harlem renaissance book. how much time did she spend in harlem? >> guest: she didn't spend as much time in harlem as many

other writers, but she was there. she knew many other major writers in the harlem renaissance. but i think she considered part of the harlem renaissance because of when she was writing her novels, her short stories, these books that she wrote would come out as part of a period of intense writing by artists, literary artists of this period. not all of them were in the harlem renaissance necessarily, but they were connected to that harlem renaissance period. she is a part of that group. she was friends with langston hughes, who was important in the harlemenssance. she knew many of these writers in his period. >> host: eatonville was in her heart. >> guest: eatonville was always in her heart. eatonville -- i was looking at this, eatonville has changed

since i was there ten years ago -- but eatonville was a black space. eatonville was home. eatonville is where people sang songs and wrote the poetry and the kids played together and they felt safe in eatonville. a safety that you didn't always feel in the south. of the south is a dangerous place at this time for black folks. it has been dangerous and a period of slavery. it remains dangerous for black people. but a town like eatonville is a safe space for black people. kids could grow up and feel safe. kids playing in the photograph that we were showing a moment ago, that was real. and i think that's why it stands out as a unique place even now, whether you've read the novel or not. >> host: the oldest black incorporated a town in america

since 1887. well, this is an interactive program. tonight, "their eyes were watching god" is our book that shaped america. we want to hear from you as well. here's how you can participate if you have a question or comment about zora neale hurston or "their eyes were watching god," (202)748-8920 if you live in the east of central time zones. (202)748-8921 for those of you in the mountain and pacific time zones. now, if you want to send a text message, you can send it to this number, (202)748-8003. please include your first name and your city if you want. and we will begin taking those in just a few minutes. also, want to let you know that we have a very robust companion website for this seri. it's at c-span.org/bos that shapedmerica. we have teacher resources. you can send in a video about what book you thinkhaped

america. we've got companion videos as ll we've got the list from the library of congress of the 100 books that shaped america. so, there is a lot on this website that you can add to your understanding of each of these books that we've chosen for the series. now, professor patterson, you are prepared to read a little bit from their eyes were watching god. go ahead. >> guest: the first sentence i want to read ass one. they had been timeless, eyeless, all day long. t n the sun and the boss man were gone. they became sounds and lesser things. >> host: why did you choose that? >> guest: it's important to understand the difference between living in the safety of eatonville with family, a place

where families took care of each other, the kids were safe and so on and then you go out from eatonville to work in the rest of the world. >> host: and that's the boss man purse? >> guest: that's the boss man part and being toungless. that is what the apartheid jim crow meant. but when they got back home they could be themselves. they could play their music, they could play cards, the children could play games and feel safe doing that. in this period in the south i don't think people want to say

how difficult it was to live not just in the south, to be very clear there were other parts in the united states that it wasn't safe to be in as well. we tend to point to the south, but i grew up in the northern but there were places there you couldn't go safely either, so that's what i think she meant by this. they had been forced to be something else and somebody else when they were away from the safety of eatonville. >> host: janie is the main character. is it modeled on a zora neale hurston, do you think? >> guest: i don't think so. there doesn't seem to be,rom what i know about the biography, there doesn't seem to be part of her life. but i think she's imagining a love story. >> host: you're going to read a little bit more from the book, and this is nannie crawford's

voice, correct? who was her grandmother. >> guest: so, the white man thrown the load and tell the black man pick it up. he'd pickp because he'd have to, but hon't tote it. he would hand it to his women folks. hurston getting at the question of gender that women like in slavery bore a heavy burden as women. they not only how to raise the kids and cook the meals and so the clothes and work in the field and all of that, they were required to do that on the plantation, and they continued struggling with gender matters even in a place like eatonville and some of that comes through in the novel. it changes by that point

certainly because hurston got an education and wrote things and so did so many other women in his period. but i think what she's getting at is the everyday life of women and gender. >> host: and she uses dialect. >> guest: and she was as a dialect, yes. >> host: was that unique in 1937? >> guest: i don't think it was unique. i think in this novel -- trying to remember some of the other novels -- i think it was unique. hurston, but i love about hurston, she had a deep, deep respect for black culture. how we talked, how we saying, how we joke. she respected that. she wasn't ashamed of black people. and in a society that is for all intents and purposes you can call american society apartheid, the same way it was in south

africa. and that's the world that most black people lived in in one way or another. now the beauty of it in eatonville, you could leave orlando for example if that's where you worked and handed to work under the restrictions i'm referring to and come back home to eatonville, come back home to where you're not adjudged, where you can speak in dialect and he was the language you use and were not criticized for it. and you still find attention around gender. it shows up in the novel that way as well, around -- one of janie's husband's expected her to work and help all the time and i think that's what hurston was picking up on as she puts it in her

in 1960 in florida. we will get more into zora neale hurston's life as we go this evening. but let's hear from you ivana calling in from memphis. good evening to you. >> caller: i am taken by so much of zora neale hurston's work, but i really like the idea of how she treated so many pects of females and women's lives and how women were subjected to racism, sexism, color and i was extremely taken also by her humor for example

there were certain aspects of my life i think about as i read the book so i have the opportunity to teach her works in higher ed and i also show the film. any type of media that was on herork. but it's unfortunate somehow as great and glorious as our writers are, they sometimes did not get their praise and their flowers. but at the same time, their works were so glorious. >> host: so, yvonne, what was your method for teaching "their eyes were watching god" for teaching about zora neale hurston; what do you want people to leave with? >> caller: i would say i want people to live with the beauty of blackness. the beauty of being able to work

out of the challenges of blackness or sexism or victimizing of any kind and be able to create art, to create literature, to create music and i think african-americans in america and the african diaspora can present to the global community. >> host: thank you for calling in. much like what you said about zora neale hurston appreciating black culture and black people. >> guest: i would go further and say she loved black people. she loved the culture, the language, she loved the humor, the songs. black people are not subjected to ridicule in her writing. she picks up on the issues they

struggle with and the caller talked about color. there's a character in the novel who we call it color struck. and hurston put it in the novel. >> host: what does that mean exactly? >> guest: she's really hard on dark skinned people. we grow up in a society where our color defines us. in most families, very large families, the color runs through the whole list of color, mind is from very dark skinned to almost white. that almost white is slavery. the almost white comes out of the history of slavery. i teach a course on slavery this semester and i have to address this issue with students today

that the treatment of black women meant that they were forced into sexual relationships not of their choosing, because they were property and they were used and discarded as such and that rule stayed with the culture to the present day. that's what the caller was referring to. and so, hurston didn't shy away from that issue in the novel. >> host: let's hear from evelyn in long beach california. you are on the c-span books that shaped america. evelyn, are you with us? >> caller: yes, i am. i'm on the phone. can you hear me? yes, my name is evelyn night and i'm a native of africa down alabama. brought in the late 1860s to

be enslaved. slavery was abolished so they started africa down alabama and i was born there in 1933 and i want to just say that we in africa town, african-americans all over the country have experienced the united states and the racism and the mistreatment into the misinformation about who we are as people. african-americans have made a contribution to the united states. they've been wonderful people and i would just like for all americs to really realize that were all the same people. we are all people and we all deserve equal treatment and equal respect and equal dignity everywhere all over the world. >> host: evelyn, i have to ask you two questions. i think we both did the math and if you were born in 1933 that would make you 90-years-old is

that correct? >> i will be 90 on the 19th of december. >> host: in are you familiar with zora neale hurston and a "their eyes were watching god"? "their eyes were watching god"? >> guest: >> caller: yes. i am familiar, and a familiar with her visit to africa town, alabama. she and langston hughes came there and they were on a mission and a journey that african-americans have been in the united states all their lives, and i was happy to know and be in a place where they were and to think and to share with the world the dignity and respect of african-americans just like all other people are. >> host: evelyn, we very much appreciate you calling in this evening. >> guest: i should point out, the africa town i think she's referring to, because she is from alabama, was built by a slave that came on a ship into

mobile harvard during the civil war and built a town called africa town. that's a very important -- what a lot of people don't know about this, beginning to know about this place that she's talking about, and that ship, the people on that ship -- zora neale hurston interviewed one of the people on that ship, and it's written about in one of her pieces of writing. his name was cosulo, and that's an important event in our history. the history that i had to learn about late in life, because we don't want to teach it. that ship pulled into mobile, alabama harvard right in the war in the town is still there. >> host: not only do we have a robust website with this series, but we also have a companion podcast. and we talked with gary richard,

an english professor at the university of mary washington in fredericksburg virginia. here's a little of what he had to say about the life of zora neale hurston. >> she, at least from the academic perspective, will continue to be taught in the foreseeable future. because of that energy, because of documenting a certain typef black voice and she has a dialogue often so in contrasting ways with her fellow writers is a pers who teaches southern literature and u.s. literature, african-american literature to put hurston and write in dialogue, to have students way out when is it advantageous to be overly political, when is it to n b over political? how does one draw attention to racial injustice, gender injustice a oer things like that, how does one do it and

what are the trade-offs, those are issues that i think we face in a range of ways in 2023 just as they are doing that back in the 30s. so i think that they remain pertinent and timely and she's just an amazing writer. >> host: now we want to have joined the program carla kaplan with northeastern university. she's a literature professor there, women's gender and sexuality studies professor as well. and author of "zora neale hurston a life in letters." professor kaplan, have you been listening to the program this evening, and what would you like to add right off the bat? >> caller: i have been listening, and it's been terrific. i don't know, evelyn, if you are still here, but i want to say it's an honor to hear from somebody in africa town, from

africa town. i've written on it quite a bit. and the book that hurston wrote about africa town and lewis was never published during her lifetime. it was published a few years ago. it was essentially the transcript of her interviews with lewis also known as cosulo. >> host: professor kaplan, i'm going to ask you the same question i asked professor patterson. why do you think "their eyes were watching god" was included in the library of congress is list of books that shaped america? >> caller: well i think it would have been extraordinary if it had not been included. let me just say that from the start. it's a remarkable book. it had an enormous influence during its day. hurston's literary reputation is a study in change. she was very, very well known in

her day. she was a book-of-the-month club writer and in many ways the toni morrison of her day. and it wasn't until the 1940s and 50s that her literary reputation starts to really fall away on tell by the time of her death as professor patterson notes in 1960 she's hardly known. and she an enormous influence, and the book has annexed ordinary impact. it's one of the boldest books in american literature. it does things that nobody else had ever done. >> host: while, we talk about this book as a harlem renaissance book. it was written in 1937. so we went to harlem, and we visited its literary sites. >> here we are in harlem. art and culture, music, visual arts, literary art.

the life and times of zora neale hurston. here we have the center for culture. imagine schaumburg 15-years-old wants to know what contribution have blacks made to public culture and civilization. he takes upon himself to collect [inaudible] he becomes the head of his own collection. imagine zora, imagine being colored. they fortified themselves before the harlem renaissance movement.

i want you to imagine the time when agents were going to eatonville florida and introduced a girl to come to eatonville and harlem. you do some light labor and it's going to be okay and wonderful. you can send money back to your grandmother who is in need of it. look down the avenue. every thursday night you get off. what would you do, back into harlem. you walk inside and what do you see, other women also in

mechanics. who's coming in after that? the men are coming and now the women are there and the men are there [inaudible] you've never seen anything like this in your life. imagine. 1926 and zora is a frequenting guest at the location which will become known as . imagine wallace thurman, visual artists, imagine zora here and as i mentioned you see the harlem renaissance many times, the policymaking unit the decisions made in terms of how they culturally came from the

older guards -- they are thinking what's bring young culture makers and they will be our cultural warriors against racism and discrimination. but after all they are thinking what do they know, what do older people know? we are the warriors so we want our voices to be heard. our voices are worthy to be read at the time. in the publication you have people, controversial writings. there was a large gay community at the time but they couldn't tt articulate their voices. zora said your voices are worthy of being written about and now the articles are coming out, some are controversial. fire magazine. established here, 1926.

imagine 1937 she publishes "their eyes were watching god." imagine those eyes are also watching the crowd here at the manor. >> host: professor carla kaplan, we discussed eatonville and its importance in zora neale hurston's life. what about harlem? >> caller: so, zora neale hurston is a harlem renaissance writer. she comes to harlem in 1925. she comes to harlem with nothing. she's got no money. she has no connection sam she throws herself into the middle of the artistic movement that's going on and is in kind of an instance an instant success but we have to also understand that of the novel appearing in 1937 is a hearing at the absolute tail end of the harlem renaissance and really after it and there's a reason for that. from 1927 to 1932, zora neale

hurston is completely constrained by a legal contract in fact there are three legal contract hers and a difficult figure who also was funding but in some ways controlling langston hughes. that feature of being supported by a white patron who was also controlling was a problem throughout the harlem renaissance. with white intellectuals and artists played a very influential roles. one of the reasons doesn't appear until 1937 is this

contract. she is moving out of harlem, she's moving away from harlem and keeps an apartment in harlem for years and years and essentially shares it with dorothy. she moves out until 1948 when she leaves harlem for good and never looks back. >> host: does she make money from "their eyes were watching god"? >> almost none. she struggled for money, never had money. when she did she gave it away. she wasn't particularly good with money or particularly interested in money. and she made a little bit of money from "their eyes were watching god," but not enough to make a difference in her life and in fact in spite of being far and away no comparison the most widely published black writer of her time, nobody comes

close. she never made enough money to live off of her writing. it's one of the great tragedies of her life. >> host: let's go back to the viewers. kevin is in marshall, texas. kevin, please go ahead. >> caller: i would like someone to address the political rift that seems to be between ms. hurston and other renaissance writers such as gwendolyn brooks were richard wright or langston hughes. i haven't heard that addressed. >> host: tiffany patterson? >> guest: well, the tension between these writers have a lot to do. i haven't focused as much on the harlem renaissance as i have on hurston, but clearly hurston was

in a world of big evils. people competing with each other just as they struggled with the larger world that did not pay enough attention to the work that they were doing, the beauty of the work, the poetry, the novels, short stories, the music et cetera. and so, i am not surprised in some ways that that attention came back inside of the group. i think that looking at the harlem renaissance writers and artists, they were competing in a difficult world. they were competing to be heard, to be seen, to get their work published and all of that. and i think i'm not really surprised by that. this is this kind of competition with each other. it is going to -- it's not

surprising that it was a part of the harlem renaissance is what i'm saying. i haven't looked at any period where this did not happen, because you are dealing with people struggling and so on. we would like to think that everybody got along and it was all hunky-dory but they are human beings and flawed. as brilliant as they are and as talented as they are, everyone is trying to get their work done and it's competing with each other. i am not a literary scholar. i am a historian, but in history, writing, whether it's in the arts or in other areas, the competition is going to be there among people. a black people are exception. >> host: kevin brought up richard wright and i want to read a contemporary criticism on a review he had on "their eyes were watching god."

he wrote this in october of 1937 in the new masses, and this is what author richard wright mshurston voluntarily continues in her novel the tradition whas forced upon the negro in the theater, that is the menstrual technique that makes the wteolks laugh. her characters need and and cry and work and they swing like a pendulum internally and that is and narrow o in which america likes to see the negro live between laughter and tears. >> guest: i know that quote. i'm not surprised. i was angry the first time i read it that he would take that position, but i don't think it surprised me. he has his own view of what black writers should be writing about and he does that in native son. he comes back at hurston in a very nasty cutting way and he

was wrong about that. but let's look at the time. let's look at the period in which they are working. he wants her to think like him. she doesn't. she looks for the beauty and black people. she writes a novel about love and a novel about women. she's not writing a nel about -- her work is not about the system that has destroyed and black folk, but what black folks have retained, but they have created. not that her characters are false. they are not false at all. she's writing about in all black town which is a different no space than the one in harlem. it's not harlem. i'm not -- i think you are dealing with eagles and

personalities into competitions and all that. at least i find that as a historian all time. so black people fight. they get jealous, they cut each other up, they do all that, while they are creating beautiful art and beautiful work. we would like to think that we all got along, but that doesn't happen in history. we don't all get along. others competition, there's disagreements and there's hostility. richard wright goes after "their eyes were watching god." he wants a female thomas, as in his novel. she's not writing that. she's located a group of black folks in an all-black town and she's writing about that.

and i think that i was very angry at richard wright for a long time for attacking zora neale hurston, but as i continue to read history and look at these human beings in their moment, then i understood that this human reality is going to be there for us like it is for everybody else, not that it's right, but i'm just saying that it does. >> host: it was 2012 that author alice walker pushed back on richard wright's criticism. >> i love richard wright. one of the great things about loving people is you just love them and they have, you know, god knows we all have so many shortcomings, but we've given a good struggle here. i mean,, we've done as well in this mess of a civilization as anybody could possibly do and we

should remind ourselves of that on a daily basis. [applause] but what's so painful is the distortions that the culture has caused, we cause ourselves sometimes for various reasons can lead us to inflict pain on people who are just trying to express how they see us and just trying to express how they feel and often trying to express their love. you cannot read this book without being just drenched in love and the love of your people. you see them in all their foibles, their weird ways and sayings and funny haircuts and baggy pants and, you know, people with weird names and on and on. that's us. it's us.

and there's just so much beauty in being authentic, whatever you are. so the beauty of this work was lost on these people because they were afraid of. .they were afraid that if people saw essentially all this unstoppable joy -- you're not supposed to be joyful. you're down there being lynched. you're supposed to be always picketing something and if you are not picketing, at least to be sending out pink slips and fighting and all that. but to actually have joy in your life is a great victory and that is something that i feel she left to us, this ability to understand what true success is. a true success is about being happy. >> host: tiffany patterson, you about jumped out of your seat wanting to respond to that. >> guest: i agree with analysts because -- and i've been thinking of this name prior

to this discussion. i love the name socktobottom. only black people could come up with a name like that. [laughter] and motor boat. i reread the novel recently and was laughing at the names that she had in that book. >> host: and her third husband tea cake. >> guest: i learned to make a tea cake but i will tell you later. [laughter] but i'm saying that to me, black people are as complicated and diverse as any other people, and i think that's what alice was trying to get at. we are creators, we tell jokes, but we are not perfect. we are trying to define ourselves, live in the society that enslaved us. and i have to put this out there

we are living at a moment when those in power want us to deny these experiences. they don't want us to teach about slavery and the legacy that comes from slavery. i look at black folks like alice walker is talking about. we are as complicated as anybody else. and we argued, we laughed, we told jokes and we fought back. and i think that the literary writers are able to get into that complexity in a way that historians can't. >> host: carla kaplan, what do you think about the richard wright and alice walker discussion we've been having? >> of course of the quote is from 2012, but all kinds of women writers went after richard wright pretty much from the time he made the statement. the sentence you didn't read which is right after the

sentence that you did, he goes on to claim her novel has no theme or message, no thought. he just got it wrong. richard wright missed of the feminism of the novel. hurston was caught between competing aesthetic ideology. one aesthetic ideology was richard wright a social realist ideology that you have to sort of tell in urban story and the other ideology, which proceeds a bad by about ten years which was very dominant in the harlem renaissance is the idea that art would contribute to social uplift if it essentially showed a racist country that blacks were no different. so, the mandate was to show how similar middle-class society is across regions and hurston had no interest in that. her interest was in what she

wanted to show the working class working-classpeople of the rurad she and langston hughes shared that aesthetic but it wasn't dominant. and so she to get caught between all of these competing ideas of what art should do. >> host: sandra from st. louis park minnesota texts has hurston's book been studied by linguists because of dialect? is it significant increased because of accuracy of dialects? carla kaplan? >> they have been very interested in, and i have to say a little bit less this novel than in some of her demographic works. one of the things that distinguishes hurston's career is how multi-generic she is. she works across almost every possible genre of american writing. she even wrote some early poetry.

it's not her best stuff, b she did write some early poetry. she worked as a journalist on a number of really important cases and situations as a journalist. she wrote her novel, she wrote her memoirs, but she also worked throughout her career as a folklorist and sometimes taking it into the theater, sometimes taking it into writing, and in much, but she's interested in doing is documenting this distinctive speech of people in different parts of the country, of people with different backgrounds and it's been extensively looked at by some linguists to try to trade exactly what she was reporting and when, why she considered is so important. ..

it's a wonderful question. i have a take of this novel which is slightly different than some whites it is toxic. while i don't need any way disagree it is a love story. it is a love story. we watch janie almost in the a fairytale formula go through three husbands and then her third husband is the beat of her blossom. but what is interesting about the love story to mean it is in the service of something else but the novel does not end with her finding her great love. it is framed from beginning to end by a conversation between two women and two women only. so janie is telling her entire story to her best friend phoebe

watson on the back porch. they turned their backs on the rest of the world. they turned their backs on the porch. they have turned their backs on harlem may only talk to one another. that's a really interesting to move in 1937 it's a very radical thing to do. janie goes in search of a romance. the. treat incident which many people love and i love this she says she has beheld a revelation just before that. just before she sees the image of a pear tree sinking into the sanctum of a blue the novel says what she is full of is the oldest human longing self revelation. not romance, not love not even to sexual fulfillment but the ability to tell her story to someone else's. that is really what janie is in

search of trade not just a lover. the only person she tells her story to is her first best friend phoebe watson that's a radical radical formulation. >> scarlet teaches at northeastern university in boston we appreciate you spending a little time with us this evening. throughout the series we have been checking in with high school teachers around the country to see how they teach some of the books we are using in this series. we want to show you variant from st. charles north high school in st. charles illinois this is lindsey? >> the opening two paragraphs of chapter one. many people are on these videos after 16 years of teaching this, i can pretty much quoted in my sleep and there's so many beautiful patches is that are symbolic they are analysis and interpretation. so suck but the first two

paragraphs i have a student start reading they always pause and talk about how it sends messages when it sets the stage for what to expect in a novel i'm going to read it she will projected up on the screen we will chat about some of things you should notice. some mix with the tide for others they sell forever on the horizon never out o sight never waiting until the water turns his eyes away dreams mock to death by time that is the life of men. women forget all the since i don't want to remember and remember everything they don't want to fge the troop is the truth in t act and do things accordingly. these paragraphs are that men stream versus the women streams that messages about power and gender in the novel. it's important to note the chapter starts off the very

first paragraph focused on the men of the world and then in the ending of the chapter it focuses in on janie and her being able to tell her story regardless of time in both the opening paragraph in the ending paragraph of time a character in the novel. it's capitalized to show the power it has over humans regardless of their gender however the transfer of power from the opening paragraph to the ending paragraph is importance. janie is able to use her voice to tell her story to her friend that shows what it's saying here about women and action. >> all of these teacher videos and teacheresources are available on our website sp.org/books that shaped america there are lesson plans there as well for teachers. back to your calls are rhonda

and sacramento, california thank you for holding your book tv. please go ahead. >> thank you it is an honor to speak with you professor what a wonderful synopsis from this class instructor. at somewhat related to what i want to say. for me in the reading he wrote more of the perspective i think and after then reading toni morrison, that in their writing and most of their writing you can see how they honored the great writer and i wanted to ask the professor as wonderful as her readings are today as far as this generation is going to be the leaders of our world i wanted to ask you during the time of the renaissance because

of black, white, how did she how is it distributed? what happened during those times? stu went around it with got your point professor patterson? >> guest: she publishes major publishers and they sell books into various places that all of the writers sell their books. they go back at the history -- she is very well known now, that took time to be very well-known. and so all of these writers are selling their work and somewhat the same kind of way because the publisher is going to make money off the books and so they're going to get out there.

want to know more today i come through high school and have the advantage of age. because the schools i went to they did not give us that i read it british writers not african-american writers that would come later. there's politics always the dissemination of black work and black art. today she's very, very well-known. it took a while for all of the black writers to be treated in that same way. not as a flat argument i'm sure there is a difference between one writer as opposed to another writer. the publishers were the ones to get that work out there to be sold and so on and so on and so on.

>> just a minute were going to show you the papers which are held at the university of florida. very interesting story that goes with these papers let's hear from gloria and hampton, virginia first. hi gloria. gloria, please go ahead. gloria i'm afraid were going to have to lose you. we are going to move on to david big. >> hello? hello? explore ankle hundreds or question or comment. >> yes. go back to the period of the renaissance when black writers were struggling so. especially female ones. and if she would touch on the issue of white females that sponsor certain black mail writers for instance was known

to have been flown around the world promoting his book at the expense of white females if she would really comment on that i would appreciate it very much. >> thank you ma'am. any further comment we had an earlier discussion on that issue but did you want to add anything to it gloria was asking? >> all these writers are juggling to get the work out there. and there were supporters or friends or whatever you call them that supported individual writers that has been true for a long, long time. i appreciate professor kaplan's comments because she had a heavy hand in the writers that she worked with and that's one of the major writers that she

worked with. but that is not surprising at all. the art world is complicated in that way. you need sponsors, you need people to sponsor you to get in certain kinds of places and it's even harder for black people and black women to get that kind of supports and was under contract. masoha a heavy hand in deciding what she did or did not do for example. >> at the university of florida papers are held there and we visited just recently. books are here at the university of florida in gainesville at the libraries we have here the collection which consists of

documents, manuscripts, photographs and correspondence that represents the last part. was so well known for their eyes were watching god, she was an active anthropologist folk lord is to end writer. most famous during the renaissance of. at the end of her allies she suffered from quite a bit of health issues. and became somewhat obscure. civil rights in the country. the upshot is when she died and gender of 1960 her books were

out-of-print. she was suffering from overdue bills with overdue hospital bill from 1959 here. but demonstrate her struggles with finances. in january 1960 was in a nursing home. when she passed away as a wart of st. lucie county. her papers, her photographs, anything she had in her room at the welfare home was gathered together, thrown into a burn barrel and set on fire. a friend of hers devol was driving by stopped, saw the fire and literally put a hose into the burn barrel to us extinguish

the flames. the singed and a waterlogged papers were brought to the home of a friend of hers they were dried off on her porch than the person said they need to go to the university of florida for posterity. the papers were stabilized and encapsulated in this form. you can see on this particular manuscript is an essay you can see the burn damage you see water damage. on these pages. the papers were encapsulated in these mylar sleeves and the preserve for generations this is a story to us of a life almost erased the remnants of someone's life that was not maliciously but benignly ordered to be

destroyed this archival superhero story of the surest deputy who saved these materials and helped us to document the life of this complicated and important american writer and folklorist. >> professor patterson do you think she would be shocked at the attention she gets today as opposed to 1960? >> probably, probably. but writers of the caliber were few and far between in those days. and as a woman she struggled. she struggled with the money she struggled with the attention she deserved she struggled with the sum to be taken seriously. she is important today she was

important then but my point is that what we are seeing, this is the story of her work and burning them it is horrific. so one that did not think she was important. and yet her work has survived and needs to be paid attention too. she wrote about the people of her town. she wrote about black folk and all of their complexity. she recorded their humor as well as their struggles. she would not have that problem today. but she had it then we are talk about a historical moment in which she had to struggle as a woman, as a writer, as a thinker in different ways that we have

to do today. stu and david is in memphis please go ahead with your question or comment. >> yes, my comment is when i grew up i was in the 70s. and as i grew up the very first thing that happened was segregation i was in the eighth grade or something. one hub african-american girl i had a cru on way back in those days and she had better grades than i did and everything. >> david or are you telling us the story? >> i was just trying to let you know that at my school at kings berry in memphis, tennessee we

did not have segregation in kingsbury hospital until i was like in the tenth grade. and that is when the segregation got mixed up at our school at kings berry. sue and david were going to leave your comments we appreciate calling in. yeah that is in cincinnati please go to their question or comments. our guest tiffany ruby patterson of vanderbilt university big. >> why did they fall out? the writing a book or a play or something that's hard to get that information. >> they did fall out and trying to remember why. i honestly do not remember.

the address situation between the two of them. we went to steven from michigan in the end that wonders why zora neale hurston opposes the 1954 supreme court decision brown v board of education. tone. some african americans resented the fact the heavy emphasis on going to school with changing situations because they felt like they had succeeded without that help. i don't know that this is the case i would have to go back and look at the material. i am thinking that all black people thought the same way about the civil rights movements.

we assume they are all going to embrace it but some resented it. i have heard this in my own church. i've heard this a growing up in indiana. in spite of it we succeeded in the way many of us have the attitude. she gulped in this wholesome allblack tablet produced teaches and lawyers and so want and so on. for some african americans i'm not sure about her's and off to go back and look. some african americans don't come in tell me i need your help we did anyway. it is the attitude, i've heard in my own family for example. i would like to go back and look again want to look at her relationship with legs that he was for example i do know there are black southerners in particular who succeeded with

education, with their jobs, making it into the world so to speak. when the civil rights movement came they did it without you. we don't need you. i'm not saying i'm going to agree with that necessarily think segregation is wrong. it is absolutely wrong there, south africa, wherever it happens. i've heard it a lot. when i made it anyway. that's one attitude that the black community. not the only one but one of them. >> as we've mentioned a couple times in this program our partner books have saved america's library of congress. we chose our 10 books here at c-span from the larger list by the library of congress. it came at about 10 years ago this about 100 books on the list when coarse their eyes were

watching god is one of those books. but what do you think is a book that shaped america? go to our website span.org/books that shaped america you will see up athe top viewer input if you click there it's too easy steps you can send us a video of wha book you think helped to shape america we may use it on the air. here are some submissions for. >> my name is shawna i'm from dallas, texas the book i think shaped america is "the color purple" 21st books that centered the experience of a black woman in the south of low income with put into actual paperback book i think was instrumental. >> i would like to see the book that shaped america with rachel carson, that was great. it brought about the american

consciousness given birth to all kinds of environmental still saying it now rachel carson. >> hi i'm campbell i'm from los angeles, california. i think the book that shaped the united states the most is the fahrenheit 451. i think that book is really important it teaches us about the importance of education and being an eight library of congress it reminds us a lot of our differences in education is incredibly important. >> hi from california i think the book that shaped america by norton. it teaches kids life is full of wonder so get up there and get explored. look at things in a whole new way just like myla did.

you've got to read this book, check it out. >> was the hill we climb by amanda gorman but united america united americain a very polariz. it's one of my personal favorites to read and it is a powerful story. >> it's about a young brown skinned girl in the story we find commonalities that come with race and help our experiences can be different but also the same. we also see how we shape our minds a how much we need that change for. >> i really love those videos and thanks to everybody who is submitting them but you cano that as well books that shaped america is the websites.

go to viewer input up at the top, too easy clicks maybe we will see your video on the air we are going to start -- we are going to end were restarted. why is this book, a book that shaped america? and what does it mean to you? >> i think this book shapes america because it takes you into a world that was cut off from much of america for very long time. and kirsten opened up that world for us. she took you into an all-black town of black people struggling at a time of segregation. she takes you into the life of a woman in this particular novel but to the community as well.

struggling to live their lives in a world where at times by people being lynched, killed, murdered for these bears that have been put in place. this book exposed to the world a human reality about lack black ves love, suggle, but read read this book six times i think. and it struck me the characters in this book are all doing with restrictions. they are all doing with some kind of restriction set up and put into place and how to get around those restrictions. women are struggling with being narrowly defined in terms of what the rules are in society. the men are dealing with restrictions because society

says you have to take a backseat to white people. i think this book opens up this world in an all-black town you have to grapple with problems thereto it's not just between the races it's within the group individuals begin to try to define their world differently. reading, this the last thing i will say. reading is liberating. it is important to read a lot of different novels and history books and the struggles that people experience. doesn't always prevent it but it can give you liberation progress tiffany ruby patterson of vanderbilt university thank you for being here to help us

understand while at their eyes were watching god is a book that shaped america and thank you to our viewers as well. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

announcer: c-span producers have said the flags will fly at half staff to mark the passing of senator herb kohl. he served in the senate nearly 25 years. in a statement, president biden said, herb kohl was one of the finest people he served with.

a timed and principled man with character. one of wisconsin's greatest advocates and dear friend. herb kohl gave his farewell speech in 2012. objection. mr. kohl: thank you, mr. president. i rise today for one final time to address the senate. my remarks will be brief and actually i just want to say one thing -- thank you. i wish i could say it with the eloquence of one of my first friends in the senate, senator dale bumpers, who told his stories and always made his case, pacing these aisles like a lion tethered to a specially made extra-long microphone cord. or with the breadth of vision of the late senator robert c. byrd who sprinkled his classic mother's day or fourth of july speeches with memorized poetry and his vast command of history. or with the fire of my dear

friend, the late senator ted kennedy, who would bell owe to the -- bellow to the rafters his passion for the america that could be and then call on the senate to make it so. what a privilege it has been to serve with such men, and so many other men and women who have made up this body over the last 24 years. you have been my friends, advisors, sometimes adversaries and always worthy and my inspiration, and i thank you. my colleagues in this body are to a man or a woman thoughtful, hard-working patriots. we do not always agree, understandably, but every senator i have met is pursuing a course that he or she believes is best for the nation, and advocating policies that he or she believes are best for their state. and when i have come to any of you with my ideas about what's best f