[applause]

host: good morning it's wednesday, january 3 20 24. the house and senate are formally open today.

before they do, we are with you for the next three hours. harvard president resignation after testimony before congress. we want to hear about your level of trust in higher education in america. if you do have confidence in the higher education system (202) 748-8000, if you say no (202) 748-8001, a special line for college students and parents at (202) 748-8002, in the fall line for educators at -- and the line for educators (202) 748-8003. facebook.com/cspan on facebook.

you can start calling and now, this was the story posted on the harvard website yesterday. harvard president claudine gay resigned after fierce criticism of the university's response to the attack on israel after her disastrous congress testimony. she announced her resignation yi that with a heavy heart and love for harvard that i will be stepping down as president. i did not come to this decision easily after consultations it' in the best interest of harvard so they can navigate extraordinary challenges of the

institution rather than any individual. this ithe headline in the washington post, this comes at a divisive time for campuses. that's what were talking about this morning, your level of confidence in higher education. as the story impacted your level of confidence in the trust you haven higher education? 37% of the country has a bachelors degree or higher and we want to know your thoughts. if you do ha confidence in the higher education stem that number is (202) 748-8000, if you say no, (202) 748-8001. students and parents of college students (202) 748-8002, and all educators at (202) 748-800. we believe those phone lin up as we hear from rob in new york

city. what is your level of confiden in higher education? caller: good morning, thank you for c-sp. you do a tremendous job, we appriate that. host: thank you for that, what are your thoughts? caller: i myself was not the greatest sdent but i audited college classes in the 70's. i was just a regular guy, showing up a seeing what they had to s. i met e most brilliant people before audited those classes, i thought education was a hokey, folksy they had did not trust. but when got on their, it's

really great to expand your mind. i am a democrat but i have some conservative tendencies. i would say that the liberals have gone too far. i dug the liberals whei was in college, i thought it was cool. they are not playing their hand wisely. host: do you mean on college campuses or the wider spectrum of the country? caer: both. thanks for clarifying what i was trying to say. that's it. the liberals have gone too far liberal for their own good and the good of the country and politics. i hate to say one group or another needs to settle down but if they were smart and they wanted to further their cause, they would settle down a little

bit. i'm not trying to take away anyone's voice but for the furtherance of different causes they would be smarter to play their hand in a more subtle way. thank you c-span. host: we have tim from st. louis , missouri from the line that says no they do not have confidence. caller: i think the causes the de i programs that they have adopted. not just in higher education but an average school districts. my school distct has dei bureaucrats. the programs they allowed have become the poison that has

affected the university system and is causing the downfall. host: what about diversity, equity and inclusion? caller: that has nothing to do with education. i think they have no point, no value. and what we know to be education. education is about ideas and knowledge and dei does not bring any value to the educational landscape. ho: stuart, your thoughts on higher education in the wake of this recent resignation, now two college presidents have resigned nce that congressional hearing last month. caller: good morning, thank you for taking my ll.

the point i would like to make is i agree with a lot ofhe callers that dei is a problem but what is far worse is when we start meddling in our universities. you have a great educaonal system in this country becau of freedom. buthe university's work throh their own problems. let us debate t harvard run harvard. let penn run penn. when we have politicians meddling with our scholarly institutions, that is when we have real problems. host: that was stuart out of michigan. claudine gay a professor before taking on the top job at harvard and she served as dean of

faculty for five years. she served as president for six months. she was the second president to resign after that appearance in front of congress to discuss anti-semitism. here is one of those key moments from that hearing. claudine gay her back and forth with a least a phonic. [video clip] >> does the killing of jews count as anti-semitism? do you understand that testimony is dehumanizing for them? tha's part of anti-semitism? i will ask you one more time,

does calling for the genocide of jews violate harvard's rules of bullying and harassment? >> anti-semitic rhetoric when it crosses into conduct that amounts into bullying, intimidation, that is actionable conduct and we do take action. >> so the answer is yes? calling for the killing of jews violates harvard's code of conduct? >> it depends on the context. >> it does not depend on the context and this is why you should resign. host: that was a month ago on september the fifth. this was elise stefanik noting to down.

this was a long overdue force resignation. it is just the beginning of the greatest scandal of any college in history. byron donalds saying that what claudine gay did was a disgrace to the once profound reputation of harvard. bob go saying this is kno as a good start. parents should stop sending their kids to these well, radical anti-american indoctrination camps. let's hear from you know, do you have confidence in higher education? what has this resignation and

the controversyver the past month on for your level of confidence? (202) 748-8000 if you have confidence, if no (202) 748-8001 , college students and parents (202) 748-8002, educators (202) 748-8003. billn illinois. caller: good morning c-span. thank you for taking my call. i have no confidence when higher education is run by white men only. that is what they are trying to get. i think it is wrong, it' full of racism. thank you. host: who is they? caller: white men and white peoplegot it? host: here is loretta in

cleveland, oo. caller: good morning john. good morning america. i watched that hearing. those three ladies said the same thing as the fbi director side. the question was about protecting kids on campus from racism. they were saying you can't do anything until someone does an action which is the same thin that christopher wray said. you can arrest somebody until they do something. i don't understand w stefanik

made a big deal about it, didn't she just want brownie points or make a fool out of somebody? it makes me mad that the public wants to chime in on things and they need to pay attention to wh was going on. hbcus have been targeted during the entire trump administration and nobody did anything, anytng. this is what possesses me off about amica. they don't want to fix something and tell it starts happening to somebody else. i don't think jewish kids are any different than black kids. if black kids are being targeted on campus, why isn't anything done about that? host: in connecticut, paul, a

parent of a student. caller: i love the program. by the w, i am a felong learner as they would say. a high school dropout who went into the service in the 70's. without the contl of the academy, the strong political forces in this country would never been able to get away with ongoing slavery, capitalist exploitation, imperialist activities overseas. the academy is the first one to go but we have a dirtlittle secret and when people start to pose the dirty little secrets

what happens? they hunkered down. a historical context against those nters, that's been going on for eons. i experienced it in 1995 at the university of connecticut. host: was such a negative historical view, youre a parent of a child who goes to colle? caller: grandpare. my youngest granddaughter is going to school and massachutts. host: do you think that's a good thing for her to do? caller: we have to start someplac if i was jaded all the way through i would never been able to susta myself and places of higher education. went and because of the injustices of the world

what abouthe environmental issue? i suppose the trumpees want to shut that downo they can have unfettered control. look at that movie dark waters about the polluting of an entire town with a chemical issue. st: the census buru from last year, 23.5% of thcountry has a bachelor and another 14.4 have some kinof advanced agree. are aing this morning if you ha confince inigher education. gail is on that line for pares

out of new york. good morning. caller: good morning. i n only tell y what i experienced. my son graduated in 2006 and he nt to harvard for underground. he started in 2006 and in 2007 he said they are teaching us the oppote of what i lrned in school. i saido himyou know the difference between wrong and right? and he said yes. and he was smart enough to realize. and then he ended up going to the universi of pennsylvania. i noticed all these clubs but

they are n integrating people with eh other, they are exclusive. the african-american club, t asian club, all ofhese clubs and nobody is integrating with each oth. i thought that was how college should be. and that's my experience even ough i have no higher education. i fe you have to keep your kids close. we have to teach them your beliefsnd hopully they will have good beliefs. host: in new york this is the editorial board of e wall street journal, esiden gaze resignation offers a chance for an education reset. they note that what has been happening results from the faure of leaders to support traditional liberal values of

free debate. administrators keep flinching as opposed to drawing hardlines. that was their op-ed from today. this is for michigan. caller: good morng, regarding the issue of higher education and harvard sets a good example with the resignation of president gay. comments about her wanting to go back and make corrections on her thesis, it's like a bank robber. he steals all this money and profits of so many years and now he's not calling it a robbery.

he wants to go back and sign the loan documents. host: let me give people a wrap up of this plagiarism aspect of the story. comments grew with allegation that she plagiarized other academics in academic paper including her dissertation which looked at the politic significance of black political success. reviews of her work uncovered some instances of inadequate citation but those submissions did not meet the bar of research misconduct. she has askedor for corrections on two papers. go ahead martin. caller: a doctor can have his

medical license revoked and lawyers can be disbarred so why is she allowed to continue to teach there at harvard? e did not earn her phay, they should resend it immediately. host: she is going back into teaching. thank you for the call. this is kyle from buffalo, new york. caller: good morning john, i am a little disturbed with all of these conversations. we are in 2024 and a lot of our caller have not been to a college campus, maybe their kids are not in college anymore. there was a caller from new york that say there are clubs that

are separatist, the spanish ub, asian club. i don't see it that way. i was involved in all of thos clubs. we had a diversity of college kids when i went to school. host: when did you graduate? caller: i graduated class of 2000 and i got my masters in 2016. i teach a business class at one of our community college and i am also a high school teacher here in buffalo. colleges over the 30 years have been more integrated with people of color. people don't understand the history of hbcus because people of color and females were not allowed to attend white male

universities. the caller from ohio who talked about things in that category. we have a big jewish population and i have a lot of jewish friends we talk about it, the racial issue. if you say anything negative about a jewish person you are considered an anti-semite and i don't understand. they tk about black people all the time, when president obama was president you heard the out roar from the tea party and institutions who protested. the young republicans wereo anti-oba, it was close to being a racial topic. host: you talked about teaching at community colleges, ithere

a difference between community colleges and ivy league schools like harvard which has grabbed the spotlight? caller: i think they're all the same. i am a business teach. i don't brin any politics into the classroom i just teachhe content. most of my students when even know which political group i belong to. i just wt to see both des. host: do you think that's the case it ivy league schls? caller: i think so. u may take a class aeals with topics like thatut for theost pt, you're going to economics, physics. i'm pretty sure thosteachers are speaking on off-topic things. llege campus has always been a

place for political protest. the civil rights movement, most college campuses were addressing the issues of the cil righ moment. every generation has approaches to protest. we have a divers population and our campus represents thought. a lot of students who were protesting were upsetecause palestians were gettg slaughtered bed on what happenedn octor 7. it wasn't anti-semitism, it was people post off that one side is getting slaughtered and the other sideook a hit. it sought on both sides but you have to have theseind of political outrage from our youth

because th are the future and they are tired of seeing thi racial divide and bs that we cread. that's why we have these club because our forefathers thought it was ok to discriminateased on color and gender. and i hear these caller and a lot of them are whit host: a lot of time people don't indicate what race they are. ller: i have been on-span since 1998, you can tell the once. es. you can sense. i think most people would agree. rerdless of their tone and the way their accent is in the areas the call from.

i gefrustrated because our college campuses are supposed to be a pce where the young generation are going to be included in america and they have to be allowed to address their political theories. host: we are about lfway throh ouregment we have a lo of lls waiting toalk. are talking this morng about higher education and your confidence in hier education in thi country in lightf the president harvard's epping down. the phone lines for you to call and ifou say yes you have confidence (202) 748-8000, if you say no (202) 748-8001, students and parents (202) 748-02, and educators (202) 748-8003.

a few of your coents from social media, we have been checkinghose. jason writing and from x, harvard, ye and other ivy league school don'reesent all higher educati. the real tragedy was elise ste fanik's grandstanding. the are plenty of colles that understanthe importance of educationnd not liberal indoctrination. come here fm all over the wod to attend our colleges. i have better confidence in a higher education when they critical thinking. and one gets the feeling that college students are told what to think rather thato think.

militant aivism has no place in higher education. caller: i can only speak to my experience in ohio since i was born and raised and lived in ohio all my life and i'm retired now. i got a bachelor's from ohio university and four of my siblings attended college and my kids attend a college. i know it is changed because governor dewine and his lieutenant governor are working hard to get colleges and universities to gear them towards e intel workforce. i can only speak to ohio from my experience.

i had an economy professor who was excellent. i can only speak from my experience. host: did you graduate with any college debt? did your kids graduate with student loan debt? caller: no, there were seven of us and my dad told me at an early age tt i was responsible for my own education and i was a resident assistant of threof my four years before i got my bachelors. and i was a substitute teacher. i am retired now. i can only say good things about my experience. host: carolyn thank you for your

call. the student loan debt balance has increased 66% over the past decade and totals more than $1.77 trillion according to the federal resee. usa today breaking down those numbers. more tn 92% of udent loan debt is federal udent loan debts while remainin amounts are owned by prate stent loan companies. you could look up those numbers if you would like. this is a wire fr brooklyn, new york on the line for parents. caller: good morning everybody. goodorning black america. i graduated from the same sool

as rudgiuliani. at t same time, have a child who was about to graate high school and he wants to goo college. yoget a chance tvisit see at it's like on campus, you geheir points oview. i'm concerned about my child ing to school a i graated with a degree from comnity collegin new york ci. there's a big difference betwn why black people d other people go to college. the in purpose is to improve your earnings and ability to earn money.

child this about to do that and i'm still trying to do tt. i'm trying to get viableork to live on a bac level. at the same time, you go thugh a process of ying to get the degree but you sll have to eat everday. my child sll has to eat. u find a job whi i did when i was in college. but i could not go to school an work at the same time. host: did you or your child take out student loans? caller: i didn'tant to take out student loans and that's what i'm trying to do for my n.

i didn't want to have a degree but not hing a way to pay for it. i s ftunate, i was able to get financial aid to go school for free. it wasommunity college, but community colleges in new york city are awesome. host: this is ryan in phoenix, you are ne. ller: good morning c-span, great show. let cover a couple points i thought e the other college presidents were unprofessional

and i'm glad they are stepping down. we hold these kids to a certain standard. they should be suspended but they let the president sit there until the students finally came together to step down. she was very subr with her performance at work. i am gla she is stepping down but it's ridiculous she was allowed to continue as long as she did. obviously, she was not qualified. host: here's more from clotting gay from that hearing that brought that spotlight on harvard. [video clip] >> i know many in our harvard jewish community are hurting and experiencing grief, fear and trauma.

i have heard from faculty, students, staff and alumni of incidents of intimidation and harassment. i have seen reckless and thoughtless rhetoric shared in person and online, on campus a off. i have listed to leaders in our jesh communities who are scared and dissolution. at the same time, i know members of the muslim and arab communities are hurting. during this past month, the world, our nation and campuses have seen a rise of islamophobia. during these difficu days i have felt the bonds of our community strain. in response, i have thought to confront hate while preserving free expression. this is difficult work a i

know i have not always done it right. the free exchange of ideas as a foundation upon which harvard is built in safety and well-being are the prerequisites for engagement in the community. without both of these things, our institutions funder. host: that was former harborview presidt clotting gay. that was back in december. this is from the new york times column on the lesson that harvard should learn after clottingaze resignation. -- claudine gays resignation. people will strive for influence for its own sake and status but

status without excellence is eroded. 200,000 or more is a lot to pay for lessons about antiracism. there e plenty of reasons to send your kid to college but no one should doubt the intelltual brought is pervasive and will not stop spreading until universities return that their purpose is to liberate mines and not engineer utopias. do you have confidence in the united stas today? diane fromt. paul, minnesota. caller: john, good morning. i do have confidence in higher education because i had it not being for thatystem lifting me

out of poverty. i was able to obtain my masters degree from the university of minnesota. had it not been for the campus we had, during apartheid during south africa. i believe that is what's happening with the students how ordiry people of palestinian dissent have been treated ever since israel was created in 1948. i have five kids and four of them are college graduates. i agree that they should stop lling those people over there in palestine.

and treat them like they are doin like they are animals. i have been to 14 countries in israel so i have seen what has been happening around the world. i have a brother and he thing just like most of these people calling in today. i am native american and african-american. we need to learn our history. there was no diversity, we fought to get diversity. when went to college in 1979 to get my degree, there was nothing about cultural diversity in the state of minnesota. host: did your brother go to the same university? caller: he went to trade school. he made good money all of us

live but they don't get the same traininghat higher education gives people. you have a chance to be provided information, check it out to see what is real. ever since i staed going to school, i have been told his story, but not my story. we have not been able to tell our story until we got cultural diversity. host: this is james from new hampshire, on the line for educators. caller: i am a retired person but i was formerly on the faculty of harvard. i am personally familiar with the previous harva president.

the politician in new york, ms stefanik. two university presidents have been forced to resign or fired. what concerned me, dr. gay was recently put into that post following an excellent president. host: are you referring to larry summers? caller: larry bacco. he was the president of m.i.t., tufts, and then harvard. and he retired of his own choice.

my question would be, how much of this is political influence driven by political pressures on the u.s. eironment to cause a woman who essentially just got there and why was she appointed if these deficiencies were identified or is this someone manufactured and patched together so they could displace her? i'm not sure what is driving this or why she was allowed to proceed through the process of selecting her and within a matter o months, she has been dismissed. who was the committee that qualified her and why was this

politically driven why she has been released so fast before she has a chance to play along? host: she was the first black president and black female president of harvard. lori in youngstown, ohio. good morning you wernext. caller: good morning john. first and foremost, ms. stefanik should be the one resigning. this hearing should never have taken place. if i was the three women sting up there i would've told them, i

want to see the evidence and where was anyone calling for the genocide of the jewish people? this is the nail in the coffin of higher education, freedom of speech. that's where the whole problem is. i graduated with a masters degree from youngstown university. have bill johnson who has wormed his way in, a right wing lunatic. he is not wanted youngstown. i don't want him as a former student that graduatedith a masters degree. this is all about race. all of these ivy league institutions have always been embedded with whe supremacy. i want to know where stefanik's

outrage about the genocide going on in palestine right now. host: ohio republican bill johnson set a takeover youngstown later this month. this is barry and hopkins, south carolina. caller: good morning john, i am a graduate of the university of south carolina. my daughter has a nursing practice and attending the university of south carolina. last night we were talking about her student loan and she said i will be 80 years old when i pay off my student loan. my daughter does have a student loan and my wife and i were essed to not have one.

my comment this morning i have two. as a black man i benefited from college protest. i remember us a little boy, the college students coming to ou church and we would raise money to give to them to fight for the cause during the civil rights movement. if they would have n put their necks on the line to protest against racism, whereould i be today? just recently at the university of south carolina i was pleased to see a group of students stand up for the workers who support the university to get pay raises. as the next student, as an activist myself, i was so pleased with those kids because

we have a new generation comi on. they don't do things the way we them. and i do not wt to retired their owth. i want them to go through the process of maturing. in the predent of harvard, i can't imagine the vetting process they put that lady through. and then to come six mons in and say oh she plagiarized. t me tl you something, plagiarism has different definition than it had wn i was attending college. i don't quite understand w harvard's vetting process did not pick up on these discrepancies. thank you r taking my call. host: that was very out of south

carolina. we are asking you if you have confidence in the higher education system? james from wilmington, delaware. go ahead. caller: gd morning. with the context of your conversati, ion't thini ha confidence inigher educion. i graduated fro undgrad in 79. i went to an eastern liberal arts college there is no doubt it was left leaning. we madphone calls homin the hallway door and called home collt. that was college w like when i went. i remember the conversation with my fatherescribing how his

small business busins was exploiting t workingman and he said you a going to a communist school. host: wt was that talk like? when you got hom caller: it s calm and rational my fatheras an intelligent man and he fell that college was for people who wertoo stupid to figure things out themsels. he use the lrary teducate hielf. he very raonallyalked me through wise centraliz decision-making was inferior to a free market. host: he wask with you going tochool? caller: absolutely. and i did my graduate work at nyu for a in social work.

i thinthe issue being discussed, the professor at harvard, whatever her title was. she wanot caught in an active anti-semitism but caught in an active hypocrisy. when all a conservative speaker could step on campus and get shooed away before speaking a word. that is such start contrast of calling for the elimination of the jewish people. that wasrinding the gears of even the most strident people to accept. if this was a call for the

extermination of africaamerican people there would be no hesitation, she would've said yes or no. the only hedging comes is when it's a call for the extermination of jewish people and that makes it anti-semitism. th's all i have to say. host: this is john out of new jersey, good mning. caller: thank you for the opportunity. i've a feeling it's simplistic to ask about higher education across the u.s.. the u.s. iversities are the best in the world but there is a lot of range. the for-profit universities,

their graduates can't get jobs. it's hard to justify. it's hard to be specific. host: what do you teach? what kind of educator are you? caller: i taught physics, i've worked it different laboratories. host: the spotlight has been on the ivy leagues in the culture of ivy league schools. as that too broad of a question? why don't you focus on ivy league? caller: with the faculty there is nothing they would rather do than prove their colleagues wrong. there is a lot of diversity of

opinion and i think picking out anyone faculty member statement at one time it can be entertaining but it's an oversimplification of what goes on in universities. i'm talking about the overall nature of educion. what she said on one pticular day in front of a demanding audience, you make mistakes or if they do't get their words perct they will g misinterpreted. it's highly developed skill in

the political arena. host: this is geoe in virginia beac virginia. caller: claudine day, i ful suort her. was she said was legally and morall accurate. representative elise stefanik is jim jordain a skirt. after this heang, i watch the whole thing. and several other hearings ke it. attacks by the right wing and zionist groups, you know who i'm talking about. they went crazy and they still are. ,000 palestinians areead and there is still not much

corage, some coverage but not enough. definitely no sympathy for the people theare killing over there. that is all i've got to say. host: eddie from los angeles, mind f parents. caller: happy new year to all of america. the thing about it for me, they're supposed to be a paration of church and state. if conesswoman stefanik which she banned the bible because of revelations, they're supposed to be a separation of church and state. they have no business putting people over there. when she banned theible because of revations 2:9, 3:9. st: from houston, texas,.

caller: i am saddened from people not recognizing, they're talking about a group of people trying to create genocide. to resolve it, people get hurt. that doesn't mn paltinians should -- you cannot gecide any population.

until educators recognize that, they don't belong in these institutions. host: that was our last calr in this segment. stick around plenty to talk about this morning. the first primary vote is just days away, we will speak with david becker from center for election innovation & research on how they are preparing. and then later steve clemons, will prepare us for the political stories ahead. stay with us. ♪ >> the house and senate are in

recess and they will meet to avoid a government shutdown. >> we are ready to the work but we are waiting the other side to come forward with a number we can agree upon. >> leader mcnnell and i will figure out the best way to get this done. we do not want to shut down. >> follow th progress when congress returns on the c-span networks, c-span now or anytime online at c-span.org. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. announcer: if you ever miss any of c-span's coverage, you can find it any time online at c-span.org. videos of key hearings, debates, and other events feature markers that guide you to interesting and newsworthy highlights. these points of interest markers appear on the right-hand se of your screen when you hit play on select videos. this time table makes it easy to quickly get an idea of what was

debated and decided in washington. scroll through and spend a few minutes on c-span's points of interest. >> what is the most important change would like to see in america? or over the past 20 years, what has been the most impoant change in america? we are giving away $100,000 in total prizes with a grand prize of $5,000 and every teacher who has the students participate in this year's competition has the opportunity share portion of an additional $50,000. the competition deadlin is friday, january 19.

for information, visit our website at stentcam.org. announcer: friday nights, watch c-span's 2024 campaign trail, a weekly round of providing a e-stop shop to discover where the country and what they are saying to voters this along with first-hand counts from political reporters, updated poll numbers, fundraising data and cpaign ads. watch 2024 campaign trail friday nights at 7 p.m. eastern on c-span, online at c-span.org, or download as a podcast on c-span now, our free mobile appor wherever you get your podcasts. c-span, your unfiltered view of politics. >> "washington journal" host: election integrity is our topic now and david becker is error guest.

he is the founder of the center for election and innovation research. remind viewers what your mission is at the center. guest: i founded the center for election innovation and research in 2016, a nonpartisan, nonprofit and we work with election officials all over the country. we help them put on elections that voters should trust and do trust so all voters can vote in a process that has integrity. host: our viewers so this story yesterday. it was from the washington times. we will get to the article but how wod you describe the state of election integrity as we step into 2024? guest: there's been a lot of misinformation over the last few years about how our elections

are done. they're more verified than we've ever had in election history. we have more paper ballots than ever before, 95% of all ballots were paper including all the ballots and all the battleground states. it's important because you can audit paper and recount paper and make sure the counts the machines might have done were accurate and that was done in 2020. 43 states conducted audits of those paper ballots including the battleground states. we've had more cybersecurity training and cooperation between the federal and state and local governments than ever before. we also know that the 2020 election was the most scrutinized election in american history. more pre-election litigation that clarified the rules. seven out of eight cases filed in anticipation of t election were one by republicans. more postelection litigation with dozens challenging the

results. the courts review the evidence that was presented to them and confirmed what was originally determined by election officials all over the country who run our elections. we sit here over three you sent the 2020 election there hasn't been a single piece of evidence presented to any court anywhere in the united states thatould cast any doubt on the outcome of the 2020 election. host: why do you think ther is still so much controversy about the 2020 election? why is there a lack of trust and callers call in and say they don't trust the results. is that still out there? guest: there are individuals who profit a great deal spreading lies about the elections from targeting the disappointed supporters of the losing presidential candidate. it's completely normal and understandable to vote for someone who has lost and be disappointed.

to then be targeted repeatedly with disinformation over social media and media and in other ways, to get people angry and divided and deluded about what actually happens so they keep donating. people are getting rich off of this and taking $25 from social security checks because they are telling them that someone stole their election which is absolute false. host: this is from tt op-ed in e washington times yesterday and it brings up a couple of issues --

your thoughts on some of those issues? guest: most of that is completely false. there were some accommodations made because of covid in every state, red and blue states. it was all done in advance of the election. if people did not like those rules that were adopted, they could bring a challenge in court area we hadore prelection litigation than ever before. most of it was won by republicans and by the time election day came, they knew the rules at but not a of them like them. most people don't like the electoral college and that's a rule. many people did not like the rules in texas and ohio that limited dropbox one per county. those were the rules, that was what the courts decided and they were upheld. this disinformation we continue

to seebout how the 2020 election was conducted is really unfortunate. the mail-in ballot anguish was necessary due tohe pandemic, that was an innovation that brought out from hourly by red states. ju brought out pmarily from red states. it's beenroven to be secure those ballots were reviewed in every case to see if they were accurate and we know the results were. host: three years later, will there be more or less ability t use a mail-in ballot this year? guest: it's about the same. maybe a little wound down from covid. putting ourselves back in november of 2020, we didn't fully understand how covid was spread. there were thousands of people dying per day and there was concern amongst voters about going into a pce, maybe a crowded polling place and bei around other people.

election offials were trying to accommodate that in red and blue states. ohio had as much mail-in votin as states like georgia and the outcome was different but the rules were lgely the same. i think we will see mail-in voting, the demand go back to a somewhat normalized level in 2024. the access to mail-in voting is the same as it was in 2020 and that is almost every state allows voters to request a mail-in ballot even if they don't have an excuse. it's available to voters in almost every state and that's good. host: explain with the term ballot harvesting is. guest: it's a term that has been applied to the process by which someone might return a ballot other than their own. it is often used as a pejorative

term to make it seem as if somethg nefarious is going on. in actuality, a wife returning her husband's ballot to a dropbox or someone taking their older pents'baot to a dropbox in nursing hes, older residents who have lessbility perhaps to have ballots taken to a dropbox. the important thing toemember is male in ballots are verified where a voterequest a ballot may have to be on the voter registration rolls. you cannot get on the vot rolls unless you show an id tn they get verified when they come ingain ually bite matching the signatu or sotimes matching a drivers license. they areerifietwice and confirmein those ballots are keptor 22 months minimum soap anyone wants to challenge them they can. the was no challen brought. host: how often generally are voter registration rolls updated

to ensure that the people who are living in an area are the voters in that area? guest: it's really imptant. americans are highly mobile, one in three americans move in any given four years and many of those peopleove multiple times like younger people who might move to several different residences between presidential elections. it'sard to keep up with that mobility. it was hard about 1years ago when we didn't have access to the kind of tenology we have now. voter rolls today are mo accurate than they've ever been. states regularly keep their voter rolls up to date and using data they have bailable just they have available under federal law and there is a tool available now that -- at i helped delop which is nonpartisan collective of states in the states run at themselves and they shared data to try to identify pple who may move betwn those states. it's been highly successful in half the states are using it and

they find it helps them reduce the potential for fraud. host: david becker is our guest at the center for election innovation and research. you can check amount online. it's a good time to call in with your questions about ection integrity for campaign 2024. democrats, (202) 748-8000 republicans (202) 748-8001, independents (202) 748-8002. asolks are calling in, i'm sure you so the associated pre poll on voter confidence in the election of this year. it came out at the end of december. abouone third of republicans say they have quite a bit of confidence that votes in the republicanrimary election and caucuses will become to correctly. three in 10 republans say they have a moderate amount of confidence in 32% so they only have little or none at all. 72% of democrats have high confidence.

gues this shows you how intensive this disinformation campaign has been and how partisan it has been. it doesn't really relate to reality but more on whether your candidate won or lost. that is not the definition of a secure election that your candidate won, it's whether we process these ballots and we confirm the results. today, we have the processes in place tter than we've ever had in american history. does that mean they can't improve? they are constantly improving. we are getting more accurate voter lists and we have a few places where paper ballots don't exist and we are getting better at auditing. thosthings are happening so 2024 will be more secure but the resilience othe disinformation and the belief th peoplwho supported the losing candidate and only by people who supported the losing candidate that the elections aren't secure is troubling we will have to keep telling them that this is a public service.

we have 100,000 public servants around the country who have devoted themselves to giving voters their voice. ey are trustworthy and if you doubt it,o and visit them and talk to them andolunteered to be with them. there's a reason you need hours of training and you show up hours before the polls open and stay after the polls close because there is so many checks and balances in e process to make sure every eligible voter who chooses to vote can cast only one ballot in that ballot counts. host: we would be glad to invite ll workers to call in. this is john in tennessee, republican line up first. caller: yes host: what's your question or comment? caller: i was watching the news the night of the election.

they started jerking boxesut underneath a table. this is why we feel we got cheatebecause trump was way up ahead until they did that. why did they run them out? can you explain that? host: some of the videos and stories weear? guest: quite frankly, there is a lot of video clips that have been mischaracterized in the media. it was onearticularly but he might have been referring to fulton county, georgia whe there is video of poll workers who re staying in the polling place in the main polling county just taking out another box of ballots, literally tens of thousands of times during election night all over the country. they are getting the next best to count and then it was mischaracterized in the press. it's important for everyone

listening to understand that therwere lies spread about those two women who were doing their duty as ll workers that night. as a result of those lies, there was a nearly $150 million verdict of defamation that was stood against rudy giuliani. it's really disturbing to see our fellow amecans, people who volunteer to serve on election date being defamed like this. in every single polling center around the country where they were counting ballots, there were multiple observers from both parties in the room. we all remember the video from the detroit counting center on election night in 2020 when a near riot started outside by people supporting former president trump, claiming they couldn't get inside to reserve. on the other cited those doors were 2 observers from both parties watching the counting

being done in a peacefuand orderly way under the law of the state of michigan. i just hope people of both parties across t spectrum will be highly skeptical of narratives that seek to tell them their fellow americans are their enemies and they are lying to them and they are somehow stealing elections. host: there is an article in usa today from ken bloch. who is he? host: guest: he is a former state candidate in rhode island, a republican who has alleged the potentiafor voter fraud in the state of rhode island and elsewhere fosome time and has worked on vor fraud. it's not surprising to trump campaign would go to him and ask him to assess how much fraud there was whether the was fraud at all. it was right after the 2020 election and he was a paid consultant of the trump campaign. he found there was no fraud he could measure that would affect

the outcome of the election. this is what we've seen time and time again. we had that partisan review in arizona in maricopa county that said they found fraud but actually biden one that county. there had been assessments in wisconsin and other places. there are well over 60 court cases that looked at front and there has been no fraud. host: we found no evidence that voter fraud tainted the election. this was his study of election 2020. he said what they don't take into account is that voter fraud is detectable and quantifiable and i get to see anyone offer up evidence ovoter fraud in the 2020 election that provides these three things. those are his words. doug, silver spring, maryland, independent. caller: hi, what i'm hearing by

a lot of people who complain about the 2020 election is it seems like they are not concerned about the validity of their vote. they are just angry about the results. i challenge the people who were angry about the results of the 2020 election. if you think your vote did not count, that it was stolen from you, then don't vote. why would you waste your time voting if you think it won't matter? i'm saying that but i think these people will go out and vote because it's not the validity of the vote they care about, it's the fact that they didn't win. host: i think that's a good point. if you ask repubcans in georgia about why they lost the senate races in the runoffs of 2021 and 2023, there is a strong feeling supported by evidence

that the constant narrative that elections are rigged to press their own turnout. it's a really dangerous narrative. by any measure, the 2020 election was more secure than the 2016 election which was also sick there. 2016 had fewer paper ballots and fewer audits but i said at the time that there is no evidence donald trump legitimately won the 2016 election. if you believe the 2016 election was secure, you have to believe e 2020 election was secure. they were better processes in place and more paper ballots, more audits and more judicial review and scrutiny of that election. it's important that regardless of which candidate you support, there were 74 milon people who supported donald trump in the 2020 election. they are not bad americans. they voted for the candida who happens to lose. 81 million people voted for the winner in that election. they are also good americans who happen to vote for the candidate one. we have process in place with where we know that's true in the

correct response when you lose an election as we saw with mitt romney in 2012 and john mccain in 2008, john kerry in 2004 and al gore in 2000 going back to richard nixon in 1960, the correct responses to concede to accept the will of the voters and go on and try to win the next campaign. host: conrad, florida good morning. caller: i'm calling about the voter districting. boys is that so difficult every 10 years to be consistent? host: redistricting is really difficult, the way we assign house districts for instance in the united states house of representatives and state legislator districts across the country. we carve up the states by geography. there is a variety of ways to do

that, not to some easy way to do it. you can't do it by counties because they are n the same population. you might ve a county like los angeles county that has dozens of districts in other counties are less than one. it is a very challenging circumstance to do that. to ensure political fairness and ensure racial fairness and ensure communities of interest, geographies are kept together. i used to be a partment of justice attorney and litigate some of these cases. it's a very challenging situation given how the laws are applied. i have a lot of empathy for those who are trying to do it fairly. there are also times when both parties try to maximize their political power by drawing the districts in such way they will get more districts than maybe their share of the

population in any given state. host: it's an older story from 2019 but has good examples showing some of the dirty dozen of the most gerrymandered districts that end up looking like a duck or pinwheels, fingers that reach different areas. white isn't there one standard for redistricting or a fairer way to do redistricting so we don't have districts that in the loing like a duck? host: don't judge a district taste on what looks like. what it looks like month -- might not take into account parts of the land that are n occupied or take into account how population centers are linked by highways and schools and other infrastructure. the shape itself, a square isn't necessarily the best shape for a district. that being said,edistricting, the united states supreme court has decled to apply strict

standards onhose states with regard to how politics can come into play in gerrymandering and whether they should be limited in partisan gerrymdering to pick a state that might be 60/40 and turned into a state that's 80/20. until those kind of things happen, at the federal level, we will see the disparity in how the states do it. those disparities lead to legal challenges that are going on even now as we speak four years after 2020 after the census numbers came out. host: patty, line from democrats, go ahead. caller: good morning, thank you for taking my call. thank you so much for your work. it's great to see you. we appreciate it. i've gone two different polling places in different capacities

and i'm really grateful. i have your website to go to for a resource because one of the problems we have ithe misinformation. and how to talk to people about that and i appreciate the way you are speaking to address those issues. that brings me to one thing i want to throw in here. thank you for responding to the op-ed in the washington times. i felt it was extraordinarily irrespsible for pedro to read that yesterday. it just reiterates the same kind of disinformation we are fighting daily. it would be great if c-span could read those off as when there was someone on there who could address them factuly. host: i was the one hosting yestday and i read that and i

wanted to bring him on today to address that. we appreciate your thoughts on that. you said you been a longtime volunteer at polling facilities. why did you get started doing that? caller: i had a ftastic government teacher and civics teacher in high school. mr.harkness, and was always interested in the process in elecons anstraight out of school, i was alws regiered as an dependent. pennsylvania, you have to be registered with the party to vote in the primaries. i d eventually register as a demoat. yeah, right t of high school because of interesin the process and he had encouraged us to do that. i am 60 years old. i've been doing it since 1981. host: thank you for doing that. guest: thank you so much.

our system of governance rels on about one million volunteers. one million pastties all over the country. they mig get paid a small stipend that doesn't even cover their me. they go through hours of training and wake up at three or four in the morning on election day. they state until 10 or midnight on election night and they follow all of these intricate processes, the checks and balances to make sure every ballot is counted accurately and no fraud occurs. they do a remarkable job. our elections are a miracle and our elections are a miracle thanks to people like patty out there and thanks to her government teacher and nice to people who have gonout and taed about theirivic duty. they are not our enemies and their nuts trying to steal elections. i don't care whether they are republicans or democrats, all of them are doing such important jobs in the most important thing

any citizen n do is they wonder about the security of our elections, join them and find the county electiooffice and volunteered to be a poll worker and see firsthand all of the protections in place to ensure every ballot is counted accurately. ho: you talked about the observs. his -- does every state allow observers in the polling facility? what are the general rules? host: to my knowledge, every state allows the observers and some have to be preregistered. they are always bipartisan. that's absolutely essential. they are an important part of the process when they do their duty correctly. they can communicate with their campaigns to tell them what's going on and transparency is very important to this process. the rules require they essentiay beef flies on the wall. i was a justice department attorney and i used to obser election polling places around the country. i've been thousands of polling

places observing elections. host: for what purpose? guest: to ensure the voting rights act was being followed. i rarely saw any fraud. the civic responsibility americans feelbout their electionis remarkable. even at thjustice department with the authority i had under federal law, my job was to be a fly on the wall. i sat back and didn't interfere or talk to voters or talk to poll workers and if i saw a problem, i would call the election officials charged with it and inform them so they could take care of it. observers d pollinglaces their job is not to interfere. one of thehings we started to see is tre areeople who are trained to do -- to interfere in the process, potentially making these volunteer poll workers and election officials whore doing their duty and working long hours feel somewhat unsafe.

this is something we've seen across the country ithe last seral yrs, th have been threatened, used andarassed. it's happening as much today as did three years ago. my organization runs the election officialeave and -- election official legal dense fund. it's necessary to provide election officials with pro bono legal assistance and guidance if they fee they are being hassed or abused or not say. as wsit here today, e election official legal defense network is getting as man requests from election officials as it was when it first started in 2021. host:his is mark, line fo republicans, good morning. ller: good morning. i think the problem with the 2020 collection and the reason so many people don't respect it

is that there is shenanigans going on. in the 2016 election, all we heard from the democratic party was that that election was rigged. i don't remember one democrat being called a election the mayor even though hillary clinton quentin wrote a book on it. you also had stacey abrams in georgia who lost her bid for governor who never conceded that election. she claimed it was racism or something. i think the problem is that when republicans were trying to change voting was in georgia, but we heard it was jim crow. the democratic party is lying by omission because the democratic party omit the fact that it was their party that tried to keep the black vote down for like 120 years or something like that.

it wasn't republicans the did that. that was all democrats. the other thing i wanted to mention is that on shows like these, you guys are subtly trying to move the window. i heard the word misinformation and disinformation since you been on in this segment. i have to remind the listeners out there, ask yourself how many times that word comes up in our common dialogue. until joe biden got in office, you never heard those words, the only time you would hear those words is if you were sitting in a book club discussing 1984, the book. it's a way of implying that anybody who thinks the 2020 election was rigged must be a crazy conspiracy theorist area we were told to sit down and shut up when this was going on and stay in our houses unless we wanted to protest social justice.

after the 2016 election with the russia folks and everything, it's a little puzzling. host: those terms have meaning. i use them because they have meeting in the discourse but we could use other terms like lies and defamation. that's what rudy giuliani was found guilty of by a court in order to pay one to $48 million to these two volunteer poll workers who were lying consistently for years and are still lying. the bigger point that mark raises his good which is that anyone who is claiming without evidence that elections have been stolen that will make claims on social media or in books or anywhere else that election has been stolen without putting that evidence up in court is wrong. we should not be delegitimizing accurate, secure verified elections in this untry. anyone of any party. host: the caller's question was

was there as mu outrage after 2016 when democrats were doing that as there was in 2020? host: there ino question what happened in the aftermathf 2016 and 2020 was different. we did not have the losing candidate started campaign in 2016 and try to use the levers of the federal government to interfere with an election and threaten state election officers as was done with secretary of state bread raffensperger in georgia. there was limited objection by some in congress because she did concede. it did not lead to a violent attack on the capital that day. there have been instances where democrats have failed to concede and have claimed without evidence that elections were stolen. that is just as bad as when republicans do it. 20/20 was a slightly different character. we are now sitting here almost exactly three years from january

6, 2021 and it seems like many of us have forgott what it's like to watch the events of that day and see from where you and i sit now. i remember it intensely and i remember the statements from members of both republican and democratic party. i remember statements from people like senate leader mitch mcconnell. he was right, we should remember that in the aftermath of those events in 2020, a majority of the united stas house of representatives including 10 republican members voted to impeach president trump or former president trump are having insight and insurrection. that was the language of the articles of impeachment. 57 members of the u.s. senate voted to convict him. that was 10 short of the two-thirds majority necessary. it included seven republicans. th conviction would have led to his disqualification for inciting insurrection. this is something we had not seen before, it was a different

character but i definitely agree with the caller. we should not be delegitimizing elections because we are happy -- because we are unhappy with the outcome. we should require the candidates bring evidence to court to support their claim and if they can't, they should concede and cooperate in the peaceful transfer of power. host: mary, michigan, independent. caller: hi, john. i have a couple of questions and then a statement. i am sitting in the state of michigan which was recountedy our republican run congress three times and they ha counted one time. joe biden was shown to have one bite 155,0 votes. more than three years later, the head of the repuican party in the state of michigan has torn that party to shreds basically. it's because of the big lie. they have co to blows at a few of their meetings.

i hear this almost daily in the state of michigan. people will actually say that there should only be one day of voting in this country in 2024, one election day and you should have to show up at the polls, they should be paper ballots and they should be counted by hand. how people think this would be possible -- we wouldn't know the winter for months. there would be chaos in the streets. i hear is daily and i heard it on c-span the otheday. host: i think there was a caller that said there should no such thing as computerized ballots. that was earlier this week. caller: it's impossible. i wanted to ask about the lawsuit by the machine company, the lawity the fferen ne outlets and how those are

going. that's the same boat as dominion. their business was ruined and people's lives were ruined over the big lie. host: thank you for those questions. guest: that's a great set of questions. this is quite accurate that michigan was decided by nearly 100 55,000 votes, all paper ballots and eltions in michigan a run by clerks who are republicans and democrats. the elections are run by a bipartisan center and i work with them all the time and they are incredibly professional across the spectrum. the ballots were recanted and audid in the margin was almost 15 times the margin of 2016 when donald trump won the state of michigan. yet we still see this disinformation, one of the leaders inhe senate, a republican did a complete assessment and looked at all of the aspects of the 2020 election and determine the election was decided accurately d correctly based on the laws of the state.

there has been bipartisan cooperation in michigan yet we still see a lot of the lies persisabout what's going on. these descriptions we hear from some who start their analysis saying i don't like the outcome of the 2020 election, things like having all voting happened on one day. that'a really bad idea for an election security perspective. you have a single poinof failure concentrating 150 or 160 million voids -- votes into 12 hours. if there had been fraud or malfeasance or malfunction, it would decimate the election system if it happened on election day. if you want a secure system, you want to spread voting out or various modes over time. the best system wch almost every state has to make it easy to request a mal in ballot you can vote by mail a make it easy to vote early in person if

that's what you choose, i choose personal to vote that way d make it easier to ve on election day. they are all secure methods spreading voting out over days makes it the most sece. with regard to the hd counts, that's something we've heardn several states. if you want an accurate, costly counts of ballots, you should have humans do it. humans are very bad at repetitive functions of counting ballots. american ballots are among the most complex in the world. there's is not one race on the ballot, there are multiple pages and dozens o races in places like nevada and when they tri it, they found it would take months to count all the ballots. even then, you'll pbably get an inaccurate account and you will have to do it over. host: we've been looking domestically so how much do you focus on foreign interference in the elections?

host: i'm very concerned about foreign interference and we focus on that some degree. we've seen that ramp up d it occurred in 2016 and 2020. it even occurs in the midterm elections. some ageies found that autocratic nations like russia and iran and china are actively seeking to spread lies and yes that wordisinformation in 2022 and they a likely to do it again in 2024. they have a great deal of incentive not just to try to elect a particular candidate but even more so to spur the kind of divisions we currently see that these lies lead to. these are lies about our eltions and lies about whether elections work and democracy. it helps dictatorships. they want americans to be divided. they want americans to be unsure whether the person who took office actually one and it helps them a great deal.

the people who are profiting off of those ls, the people telling people they cannot trust elections and getting rich off of it, whether they do it intentionally or unintenonally are doing the work of dictatorships overseas. host: hagerstown, myland,en, fort set -- fort smith, arkansas, you are on. go ahead caller: my deal is that the 2020 election was fine. with all the lies going around, i'm wondering if donald trump will somehow try to sal the election. he is the liar in chief, over 100 thousand lies at least by now. i've got a short story. wh i was 15, i got arrted for petty theft. that was 100 $20. i went to jail on a friday and i saw the judge on a monday and he

gave me 22 more days, court costs a two years probation. i'm wondering which of these judges ll have thecojones to lock this guy up finally. host: i thinkt's dangerous whenever we talk about elections where candidates don't have control over elections. former president trump is no longer in control of the federal government which doesn't run elections anyy. i have absolute confidence that the 2020 for election will be as secure as any election we've ever held. we've got all of the protections in place and these public servants, the people we rely upon to give uour voice will do an amazing job as they have in 2023 and 2022 and 2021 and 2020 during a global pandemic. they will do their job even with ththreats and harassment and even the attrition because of

the threats and harassment. they will do their job. the question is whether leaders of both parties are going to stand up to perhaps memberof their own party and speakhe truth. right now, the republican national committee is encouraging their voters to vote by mail. this is not unusual. it's something they have done ma times before. it makes sense for campaigns to want to bank as many of the votes for their candidate as they can. they have less to do on election day and they don't have to knock on his many doors. any smart campaign doeshat and they a pushing that it's a good thi and it's something the democratic party likely does as wl but they ar having trouble because they are still gettg disinformation from some of their own candidates about security of il-in voting. that only hurts them when th take an option away from one of their own candidates. it's incumbent on both parties to speak the truth to their own voters and tell them we can trust elections and if we lose,

we lost legitimately and we will come out fighting to win the nextampaign. host: lascall from maryland, republican, good morning. caller: here'my question for you and it parlays off of what mary said. no one is asking that week not count the paper ballots but in maryland, we do paper ballots and we put them through machine that counts them automatically. i've got no problem with that because now you've got a paper ballot as a backup my problem is that in 2020, we had the greatest change in election history of all time. it was the greatest change ever. because of covid, we went across the states to thimail-in ballot thing. i've been in business, i'm a church leader and i work with the republican party with the campaign. none of these databases are accurate.

they're all maybe 95% of people moving or dying or whatever. i know they try to keep it up-to-date. i've tried it in church and business and our voter rolls and so forth but they are never 100% accurate, they can't be, it's impossible. as you know, the elections are won by a very few percentage of voters in three or four states. in georgia come i think it was 12,000 voters who wanted for biden. when i'm saying is i have no trust that we now have an election season. i want one day voting with absentee balloting. i want people verified. i trust those people are adding up the ballots correctly but the ballots coming to them, how do we know these ballots, how do we

know they are accurate? i don't know the source for this. there was a survey done in a survey of people who did mail-in ballot thing. it came back that one in five filled out a ballot for someone besides themselv. host: let me have david becker take up those issues. guest: first of all, not as many laws were changed in 20 in regard to mail-in ballot things. certain states allowed more in states like georgia, it was the same law ty had had since before covid. pennsylvania passed their law in 2019 before covid. arizona have the same mail-in ballot and laws it always had for o decades. neva, the same. these were very common laws for everyone. every male ballot in the country is verified when it gets sent out and verified when it comes back in.

it's usually by signature matcng and setimes like in georgia and minnesota, by matching drivers license numbers. that is done every time. we could discover fraud if it occurred and that's true. people were submitting hundreds or thousands or tens of thsands male in balloting falsely for voters who had not requested then or had not sent them back in. one of those voters, 50% or more of them would show up and try to vote in person and they decoded in the poll book as having already requested a mail-in ballot. if that happens, they to bring in the black -- the blank ballot and surrender it. what we might have done is discover the potential fraud which is rare but it sometimes happens. when it happens, it's detectable ends very easily found and prosuted. there is so many protections about this. mail-in ballot's been around

since the civil war in many states have been doing this for decades. they have secure elections. donaldrump one more states with high percentages of mail-in ballots then hillary clinton and 2016. that's consistent across elections. male invalidating -- male in balloting does not trend one way or the other. host: for more election, innovation.org. david becker, we appreciate your time. coming up in about 30 minutes, we will be joined by the semaphore editor at large. we will talk about global stories to watch in 2024. until then, its open form, letting you lead the discussion in public policy and political issues. the phone lines are yours and the numbers are on your screen. start calling in now when we will get to those calls after the break.

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c-span.org/podcastss. >> "waingtonournal" continues. host: it's our open forum in about 25 minutes for you to lead the discussion, (202)48-8000 for democrats, (202) 748-8001, independents (202) 748-8002. any public policy or political issue, knows your time to tell us what's on your mind. as you call in, this from punch bowl news today --

you can watch live on c-span, c-span.org or the free c-span now video app. now your calls in open forum. we will start in texas, this is allison, democrat, good morning. caller hey john. good morning. i want to go off on the la segment. i believe people are prattling on the same point. it started three years ago about the election.

they don'like the election because their candidate didn't win and then you have other ones that really don't put to brain cells together and tried to look into if there is something behind it. for example, one thing i haven't heard anybody talk about but i read it in an article, counting votes in the midd of the night in pennsylvania d trump was ahead. it was because the republicans in pennsylvania called a lawsuit and they won on the mail-in ballot issue. they held onto all the mail-in ballots and they couldn't

declare until ty were done whh was in the middle of the knightof trump tried to discredit the election. host: going into 2024, are you confident that amerins are more confident in the elections this year compared to 2020? caller: wel republicans tnk there is fraud. i personally believe that 95% of all incumbentsre reelected because of gerrymandering. i think it's a rigged to begin with. i ally don't know why a lot of people areo un-american they want to stop people from ving. it's unfair that people get to vote on what's ing on.

it tells a lot about it. host: california, john on the line for republicans, good morning. caller: good morning. there is so mu to impact between yesterday and today. you had two people on, one om cbs and one from abc. [no audio] they needed to be kicked off the ballot. [inaudible] it has no credibility in every networks at the color of the decision will be overturned probably-0. the main decision, i do't know that much about yet but i know there secretary of state is unelected. she is not elected like we do in california. we ect our secretary of state but anyway, i wonder what this n was on defending the quality of o elections and the legitimacy thinks about the 12 million undocumented immigrants that come in here since biden has

been elected and how many of those vote to change our election. the last word i heard it was between 40 and0000 and some of these key state trump would've been elected if you change that many votes. what will stop 12 llion people ? from voting in our next election? how secure does that make our election? host: how would illegal immigrants vote in the election? caller: go into the polls and get a ballot. host: how can they do that? caller: it's the same way anybody else would do it. in a liberal state like california, we are not going to tell anybody they can't vote. host: how would a get on the voter registration role? caller: the other thing they talk about the security of the elections. we watched a lady in connecticut stuff a ballot box.

it wasn't a presidential election but this woman went around more than one day and stuffed ballots into these mobile ballot boxes. that certainly change the election. the biden administration has worked their tails off to change the demographics in this country because they know their positions are not popular. before you turn me off, i've got a suggestion for you. the lady that called all emotional yesterday from florida about the genocide of the palestinians and all that, she had a whole list of people to put on there and i'm sure they were middle-of-the-road moderate people. how about alan dershowitz? if you want to talk about elections in the integrity and things like that, get an dershowitz on there. he is a hero in this deal. he is a great liberal and i

can't stand to listen to these left-wingers but he is at least honest with what he says. host: alan dershowitz has been on the program in the past but we appreciate the suggestion. tom is next out of south carolina, independent. caller: good morning, sir. i just wanted to quickly comment onow i believe about these polls that are taken. thepolls are taken so the poll takers want them to say. i use my own neighborhood as an example. if you took a poll in my neighborhood of who wts trump to be the public about 90% for trump, but that is not true becse

there are only eight people in my neighborhood. so i seven of them said, i want trump to be reelected, that is what they call a representative sample. that is not represent 1000 people at all. these polls are not accurate. they are what is called a representative sample of a neighbhood, city, state or whatever. and a small number of actual people who were pulled does not represent the full number of people. host: pasadena, california democrat. good morning. caller: here is what i think. i think that they should be done with -- i think that voting, you

should be paid $10 to vote and you should be quired to the, compensatory. the election, why do it all on monday? i think thelection -- he shouldave 10 days to get you vote in. its simp. there is no ru. everybody wants to ow before miight who won, but it should take te. papevotes, paper and pencil only. you should be paid $10 to vote and if you do not want to vote, that is your prerogative, but you should then be required to do a little that of community service. it will me you a better citizen. host crystal river, florida. republican.

caller: we know people who voted in minnesota and in florida. a lot of people have a drivers license both cities. ey are double voting. i do not know why there are so many. but i also think they should vote in person, with a photo id. host: california,ndependent. good mning. caller: good morning. i have been a poll worker and mmy, the thing that really disturbed me was voting in california with a valid . you cannot get a cell phone withouan id and most people have one.

if you cannot prove who you are and show an id like you have to when you rent a hotel or get on a plane, that is absolutely delegitimizing a election. we have really great county. i think county county, it depends on how good ur election workers are. also, when your guests was talking out the fairness of elections, tre are so many corporations out there and you have many on this show. the senate for this, the senate for that, anthey all are 51 and allowed to raise money and lobby. if you have a 501(c)(3), you're not allowed to use those tax-exempt dlars to lobby.

there are a massive amount of people all over washington dc, lodging under a 5 tax-exempt corporation. so you guest mightay that election day is not fraudulent, but there are all kindof stuff . two of the biggest examples to be on the fact that chuck schumer and mitch mccoell are still there, four years later, and they get up there and tell us that they are going to solve our problemsecause of how they can continue to get in there with their failure to eat also shows a lot of corruption. the money in politics is just diusting. host: five minutes past 9:00 a.m.n the st coast. about 10 minutes left in the

seent as you continue toall in. bob menendez, the democrat from new jersey used his international clout to help a friend get a mtibillion-dollar deal, rtly by taking tion favorable to the qatari government. that is according to an advised indiment. deepeninghe legal challenge from mendez, is already facing charges against his polical influence to secret the advance egypt's interest. ey aepted bribes of gold bars and cash, a reward for several corrupt acts that included securing a major investment. it up used in the wall street journal. it is in several major papers today. out of the philadelphia inquirer

, a major campaign each will be near valley forge this coming saturday. morning voters that the leading gop opponent presents an existential threat to american democracy. that speech is now scheduled and set for saturday. el paso, texas. good morning. caller: goomorning. i want to flip the script a little bit. illiteracy in america. i spent 23 years of helping people as a tutor, not a teacher but a tutor, helping people with reading difficultiesearn how to read comprehensively. this troubles me very much that donald trump exhibits all the

signs of someone with middle reading comprehension. i do not know how we can handle that as a nation. host: what are some of the siding? caller: he does not really pay attention to punctuation. i know a lot of people are going to say -- he did not write those books. sounding out words is not reading comprehension. ok? and i think this is a problem united date and worldwide. he could have said, a true leader would have said -- i as a billionaire, he could have said comfortable air reading. so let's fix this. let's fix this problem, and it really troubles me, as a tutor,

reading comprehension in the united states and worldwide and i think that if he wou have been honest with us, we could have -- it could have been our moonshot helping a leader in america. host: let's go to texas. billyour next. caller: good morning and thank you for pleasantl hosting this washington journal. i wanted to ask you last guest. it is something that is hardly ever brought up, whether it is president trump why republicans, and i do not know why, but regarding the election -- they mentioned the word fraud. putting fraud aside, if you go back, i wish there was someone you could have on the show to explain, but the states are the

ones who control the election. it is supposed to be, any changes are supposed to be done by the state constitution. i do not know why they did not bring out the fact that what they are really talking about are the three states involved, georgia, arizona and pennsylvania did not change their voting laws through the state constitution. therefore, making those states really and truly unconstitutional. regardless of who won. regardless of which one won. host: you're saying that voting and how you vote is laid out in each state's constitution? there are statutes on voting that go through the secretary of

state, but i do not think they have sanctions on this is how u can and cannot vote. caller: yes, they do. they make a decision. we will have male invalids and count them before. it has to beone by the state legislature, and it was not in those three states. never he ever brings it up. they were illegal elections. i love if you could have a constitutionalist like the leader of the house of representatives. anyways, somebody who is impartial should come on. host: if i can get speaker johnson on the program, i arantee i would have him on and take your call. this is steve in the garden

state. caller: 30 -- good morning and happy new year. one of the things i'm concerned about is basically how people get done. everyone is just listening to the news pundit says. because referring to palestinian genocidend using the word genocide, it is 100% a lie. you cannot say that people are going through a genocide while the population has tripled. there were many who were still not at the number that they were. people making comments about that thing, they have no clue.

they do t know that israel is the most diverse country in the middle east. we are getting our -- we are not getting our information. we are getting our information from any source possible we know about the amount of money. they have literally brainwashing america. host: karen, lying for the democrats. caller: good morning. i love c-span. [indiscernible] voter fraud, it did not make sense to me. what about everyone else?

there are things on the ballot. host: let me get to doug. independent. caller: it is a wonderful thg to have an open forum. i'd like to have a throwback to your gues and one of the things he said. alluding to the fact that one of the dangers and one thing that can have influence on ections is the fact that foreign actor can produce information, d information. they can be involved.

changing votes. none of us nthat to happen. in t 2020 election in the lead up to it, there was quita bit of behavior right out of our own gornment. we had over 20 intelligence officials support the notion that the hunter biden laptop was disinformation. and of course, it is not the first te that they engaged in that kind of misleading behavior . the kinds of business activies that were going on in the biden

family, and the debates, both of those topics were brought up very plainly. ey rejected those ideas as being completely false. the reason i bring this up is to help explain why some of us -- i'm an indendent, but why some of us are skeptical about the 2020 election. misinformation produced by our own side could have had significant influence. its a poi, a perspective that i just wanted to add. host: let's stick around.

about 45 minutes left. we will talk about the global hotspots around the world for u to watch you head. stick around. we will be right back. >> she said nois a free mobile app. live and on-demand. keep up with live streams of floor proceedings and hearings. the court, campaign in the world of politics, all at your fingertips. you can stay current with the latest episodes. " in a variety of compelling broadcasts. it is available on google play. scan the qr code or visit our

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washington journal continues. host: let's focus onoreign policy. steve clemons is our guest. let's first remind viewers. guest: we have a global platform that is growing like a weed. about a year and a half now. have about 5.5 one million meters. i think the distinctive thing about what is important is that we try to always tell the news as it is but have the writer give his or her take to remind americans that you can look at

something and have different perspectives and views that can be handled in a civil, important and constructive way. host: what does an at large do? guest: everything. i do some writing. i had a piece. publications will be a weekly they that appears. but essentially i help with editorial events. we have a two day massive summit that will be on the edge of the imf world bank. you can save a syllable on

itter. host: gaza and ukraine are probably the two hottest not to the world right now. what is likely to happen here? which of those countries meet that need of urgently right now? guest: bh of them are on the edge of desperately needed. right now, israel was given emergent t funding for a limited set of munition. ukraine is much more dire situation. hyper ballistic missile attacks.

it has densive systems, but no doubt that ukraine in terms of offense of munition and decent -- defensive munitions. they are being drawn down. it is a much more dire situation , given the shortfalls and everyone's stocks our lives day. there is n enough capacity. ukrain as bi as it is, israe and gaza -- they are small when you look at the obligations in the world. we need to look at how much credible capacity. host: the bidendministration asking for $2 million and over

55 billion for ukraine. other places they can go, there is a lot of focus. the other question is, what about you crane's other two and allies providing this money? guest: the frozen russian aids complicated. i have a friend who has been essentially -- the one who essentially held to greed a nation's right behavior and abuses. theyave been arguing sometime. it happened here since we first talked about this. it is because it gets into the question of what a sovereign

nation is. in terms of a nation's asset. once you begin doing that, a lot of other things can happen. i think that what i see happening right now, they see a you, massive deal. the last one being done way as a continuing resolution negotiatn. there is a high degree of confidence. the naysayers have been problematic in the house, but they believe they will get on last package. you are going have much more

discussion on how they get picked for more of a lift. they are providing as much or more as the u.s. right now. host: bringing up the question what does victory look like for ukraine right now? est: that is an important question and one that is hotly debated. for me, i think it would be a question of getting to a point where both sides can manage around a . i'm afraid to say yes, most likely line with ukraine. they believe at some point that the cost of taking crimea are vastly too high. i understandhy tha ski and

others believe every square inch tray needs to be overturned. it is leading to some form of frozen conflict. i do not see the wherewithal right now. a massive escalation of this conflict. right now america not robustly engaging. we have never witnessed this work before. in terms of others, you may get some form deal oressation of hostilities. that is wheri think this is

going. host: william agree with you. calling it a bitter pill for ukrainians to swallobut th it will open the door to an eventual nato you membershi if you want to join the conversation, democrats can call in at (202) 748-8000. republicans can call in at (202) 748-8001. and independent can call and (202) 748-8002. guest: is tough in my view. we see a situation right now where we just had an assassination of a hamas. they did not yield to the depths

of other innocent people and civilian. israel had a long and successful history. it is an example of what iish bnc or. 22,000 dead. almost all of them, you count women and children, but it is a pretty tragic thing. i have talked to other general. i have talked to of israel. israel rightow. it is stirring up another generation of hamas sympathizers.

they are going after individuals. they are beginning to blur that line of who may be responsible. the rest of society is a mistak what is victory? victory will take a generation. it will be a cessation of hostilities and an operation that helps guide and govern the west bank. there will be an economic plan and a political plan. host: how does the world view less democracy right now? guest: i think the world loo at it as -- right now, they see

things like january 6. they see the tumulty about to happen. challenges inifferent courts. you e the wstling over who is on the ballot. america looks like a broken and failing democracy. they see the sport and energy for somethg like israel and gaza. i would even put ukraine and russia in this. there are nflicts in somalia and africa that were essentially in the eyes of the world, head of the line the ukraine and russ crisis. but the momentum basically --

you have a lot of the global south looking at the mess as hypocritical in the way it assesses. host: this is out of midlothian, virginia. good morning. guest: -- caller: my question is, you have isel fighting, but how do you get people to realize that hamas and the palestinian people are not the same thing? i do not think they have a good understanding of therea, but how can you tell people? how does the news get people to

understand the difference between the palestinian people and hamas? guest: i think it is a very important point. the fact that most people who have any experience or orientation in the middle east understand their distinctions. michael, the ambassador of israel to the united gates, a friend of mine understands those distinctions. there are some the israeli cabinet and society who see no distinctions between palestinians and hamas. that is a problem. we think u.s. government

officis are also making that distinction, saying to be careful. the bigger issue is that we also have to understand that hamas built its infrastructure in tunnels, networks and systems come in and around the frastructure of gaza, and churches. you have hated sites that have been hit. do i think israel is purposely going after the site? that is another question. but i think they are going after the infrastructure. this creates a complexity and i understand that. it shows an indiscriminate. host: line for democrats.

good morning. caller: mr. clemens, could you please explain to me in the 21st century, how do we win the w in ukraine without their superiority. in reference to the mess of their, maybe that is the fighting force we should send over to you pain. the legislative ranch of the u.s. what did congress do? they did not pass a budget. was waiting for the omnibus to come crashing through the door. host:e are away from a couple of funding deadlines.

guest: number one on the broadside is that there are a lot of dimensions to it. right now ukraine is showing a greater capacity. it is pretty awful and it raises a sense of terror, sec cities that are not targets. i have talked to many military leaders and ukrainian leaders at the front end of this conflict. one is the ammo that they have. when this source started, russia had a supply. the total production capacity.

it deals with the russian stock. the russians have not deployed well in a lot of areas and have not behaved well in a lot of other areas. you see the management. it is unlike any we have ever seen. they have very much been a part of providing the infrastructure and creating an almost instantaneous digitized attack. we are seeing things we have never seen before. broadly on budgets, the speaker of the house was brought down by a motion to vacate. a little bit of a honmoon

period. but with the resolution comes to an end, we will see if the republicans can together behind her current leader. we began processing each spending bill in its own track. that is what the debate is about. host where are our biggest commitments right now? how does taiwan fit into that? guest: this comes from mike mccall. the senator of nebraska has been raising and saying that the u.s. has drawn down, as it supplies the needs of other allies.

it raises questions in taiwan. there is split out there. there is a belief that the support -- an enforced embargo by china around taiwan with the kind of munitions and support for the different. there are people that do not buy that. we are under resourced for that. it is a genuine and deep divide. they keep underscoring that the u.s. -- almost every european nation has also gone down the port. it raises the question that we just act.

but if you as a group have brought down and decrease your muscle power it creates possibilities. host: when we talk about a possib war, is that more of a hypothetical future possibility? or is a real possibility coming in 12 months? guest: despite what we are seeing with xi jinping, it looks like a purge of leaders. it has -- i know him quite well. when youook at that, it raises fundamtal qutions about the fragility and frivoloushis. he has made decisions to take on

finance in china. it is a recognition of the typical epidemic -- economics. it does not mean that ware ing to war in china. but we have a naonal reunification belief. it does not mean that it will happen tomorrow. think en it oks at the cost russia has endured -- it has not been a great success. it has been a stitch edict loss. that said, i do not agree for a mome that it is not going to happen and that we should not be prepared for it. we should have our own assets in place. with the quad and bridge

building between korea and japan, it begins shaping the environmt in a way. host: 15 minutes left in our program. you can eck out his work. our next caller from columbia, maryland. good morning. caller: good morning, america. happy new year. i would like to say -- i am probably nai. i'm probably a little bit biased. why do you men in top positions drawn to this violence and war? everywhere we go, we have to get into a fight. why don't you say positive

things about other countries? it is alws native. negative aut china, abouso and so. just keep it to yourself for change. host: is america to belligerent in t world guest: i think america is such an interesting position where it is seen as strategically contracting from a lot of it's obligations in the world. leavg a void in the middle east, about w dedicated america is. it creates instabili. i wish the world were as easy as alicia just said. but is not. when you look at the fact th russia invaded ukraine after a long standoff, europe and america were allied and

concerned and told russia not to do it. you can go back and say mbe we should have negotiated differeny, but i believe at the end of the day, russiaants to return to some semblance of spheres of influence. that is something that we have major differences about. israel w attacked october 7 and a bloody, brutal, awful attack. ivd is rlly media. israel wasf a consensus, a big coists that something had to be done to respond to the attack. i believe they have gone beyond that. i totally understand why israel ca in. it would be nice to say, but

that is not the world that we live in. host: thank you for waiting. go ahead. caller: why does our country still see russia as a threat, knowing that the cold war has been over for a long time? russia as a superhard has clearly diminished -- as a superpower has clearly diminished. why are we not able to negotiate with them? guest: that is a good question. i think vladimir putin has a cold war mindset and is behaving more way. he himself is trying to keep through their diaspora a sphere of russian influence. we need to be aware of that.

but high gas and oil prices make russia a powerful player. nuclear weapons make them a powerful player in the world. hypersonic and high-tech weaponry is being brought into this. the fact that the u.s. is an interesting part of the world where we do not have a lot of allies behind us, russia is able to play that card and antithesis. is it what used to be? no. does it matter? yes. you sent something very important that i think is a change in orientation. i'm of the age where i remember the cold war really we. the dissolute vases and arms races -- all of that was viewed

that the soviet union was trying to undermine americans and their interests around the world. joe biden knows that world much better than i do because a younr generation has no memory of that time at all. at that time, i was in los angeles, helping with u.s. asia issues. the soviet union was disappearing. when the berlin wall came down, it was a punctuation point that reminded us that the cold war stuff was over. they were going to define power in the next century. they came in and started looking at economics and military issues. we are flirting with both of

those and america is a superpower with great ecomic capacity and mitary capacity, the bottom li is that many people do not know why pain banners. it is a generational shift. u have to understand is really important. maybe to the cause point, that will get us out of some of the pattern of behavior that we have seen. we look at the security and alliances in a way that have to be resold to americans for why they matter. h john --

what is missing is a deep conversation to americans. why do these conflicts matter to them? they come in many cases, have come from families that served a nation more recently or over generations in korea and vietnam . they look at themselves as patriots. they argue that america fought the cold war. an economy that is not brought to serve in the middle class. supporting american engagement, it was somehow going to improve and better the lives. host: a 20 year war resulted in

an event that is still being investigated. guest: i think it sends the signal that they are trying to build schools. morally wonderful, why you cannot build schools in alabama. it is a real problem. isolationism is growing americ people are looking at trade-offs andhinking -i read a lot. he told once -- he basically said, we cannot fix schools across the anacostia river. what makes you think that you n fix schools and afghanistan? when uavs kinds of things about american aid in the world come

he still have to square and talk with the american people about why it is important. in my view, that discussion, it has not happened to the degree that it should. host a good follow on social media. tom calling in. democrat line. caller: first oall, let me say how i am -- how impressed i am. very thorough, putting things in persctive for the past decades. i was traveling in europe in 1989 and was in berlin, germany before the wall came down. i was blown away, everyone was about how the coldar was coming to an end. russ -- eir influence in the

world was going to be minimized. they were going to go to other countries around the world. other parts, third world countries even. that is exactly what happened in the 1990's. now it is a brand-new year. i want to rind my fellow americans and political leaders that joe biden was elected to stabilize things. he was a longtime senator. 30 years plus. he was the vice president for two terms -- he is the president. he had the reputation of working with both sides of the party. he started to do that when he started his presidency and his initial speeches, trying to get congresso work together to get things done. it's we were coming off of the

trump administrationhat had success stories and tons of turmoil, things thawe never dreamed would happen. we were coming out of covid and we are still $30 trillion in debt now we have put a lot on our plates. now we have ukraine and israel and border problems. these will be the main issues. this is an election year. i'm just warning people to be cool. keep your hands about you. be clearheaded. what is the old saying? prevail. cooler heads prevailed. host: i wonder abt your thoughts with the new year. major campaign speech will be valley forgehis saturday. morning voters that s leading

opponent presents an existential threat to american democracy. caller: it is more than an essential threat, it is a direct threat. we have seen this with the refusal to admit that he lost the election. that is why he is being indicted. look, i think biden is doing his best. people are criticizing his age. but i would like to see them bring back the fireside chats kind of things. host: let's go back to steve clemens. guest: i agree with what tom said. thank you for those nice words. president biden has done many

things. look at china. the chips act mattered significantly. you look at the inflation reduction act that many described as an investment. but a lot of energy security act. all of those things despite the near parity. itas been many ways a remarkle run. remember, i was at the atlantic magazine and received a call from joeiden's team to potentiay run an article by him. that, at the time with deep divisions in this country of her

race, class, particularly race after the murder of george floyd. those divisions, we saw them multiply and grow. i tell people, remember. i try not to be in ageist. presidents are individuals, but presidencies are franchises of people. donald trump is a franchise. this is my particular point of view. it is the compromising of individuals and the use of bullying and power tactics from trump and among his team and staff. look at what they are trying to do in the world and how they are approaching the restoration of morale and government. i trd to call both sides as they are. when you look at that, look at

who can look at this. it is based on the fact that government has not delivered for a lot of america. to go back to tom's point, it is good to take stock of what is on the table. are ey connecting with americans where they are? host: that -- do you have any sites? guest: we have multiple. we have a world economy sonic comingpn apri we he programseft anright. peop see aew column from me, provocations, which will begin appearing this week in our mainne publication. host: you can find it online. we always appreciate your time

on washington journal. we will see you tomorrow at 7:00 a. have a good day. ♪ [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2024] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are funded by these television companies and more, including charter communications. >> charter is proud to be recognized as one of the best internet providers, and we are just getting started, buildg 100,000 miles of new infrastructure to reach those who need it most it most. >> charter communications

suorts c-span as a public service along with these other television providers, giving you a front-row seat to democracy. and coming up a today on c-span at 2:00 p.m. eastern, white house press secretary karine jean-pierre and national security council's john kirby will brief reporters on the news of the day. at 3:30, speaker mike johnson another house gop leaders will hold a news conference near the u.s.-mexico border to talk about their border security priorities. you can stream the both of these events live on the free c-span now app or online at c-span.org. >> c-span's campaign 2024 coverage continu with the presidential priries and caucuses. watch live on the c-span network as the first votes in the country are cast in the coming presidential election, along with candidate speeches and results, beginning with the iowa caucuses