the free c-span now video app or online at c-span.org. coming up on washington journal, your calls and comments live and zeve sanderson talks about the use of artificial intelligence and the impact it could have on the election, and a retired major general on the bulletin of atomic scientists updated doomsday clock assessment, climate change, bio risks, ai and other risks. washington journal is next. ♪ host: good morning. it is thursday, january 25. the consumer sentiment index measures how people are feeling

about their financial situation and the health of the economy. over the last two months, that has climbed a cumulative 29%, the largest two month increase since 1991. we want to know how you are feeling about the economy, how your current financial situation is. if you feel like you were getting ahead financially, (202) 748-8000. if you are holding steady, it is (202) 748-8001. and if you feel like you are falling behind, call us on (202) 748-8002. you can text us at (202) 748-8003. you can post to facebook at facebook.com/c-span and z, [speaking foreign language] -- and x, @cspanwj.

this article says americans are feeling optimistic about the economy again with some exceptions. in a survey released friday, democrats and republicans express their most vorable reading since the summer of 2021 . it says "american consumers have not felt this good about the direction of the economy in years. that may signal the end of what some had come to call a vibecession, where despite low unemployment and falling inflation, something felt off about the economy. the university of michigan survey of consumer sentiment jumped 13% to region highest level since 2021, with a cumulative two-month month gain of 29%, figuring is the largest consecutive increase since 1991, when the recession was ending

and the new york federal reserve 's survey of consumer finances this month showed perceptions of households current financial situations improved with fewer responders reporting being worse off in a year ago. well, we will talk to joann, director of surveys of consumers at the university of michigan consumer research center, which conducted that survey. joanne, welcome to the program. guest: thanks for having me. host: first, explain to us how do you define consumer sentiment? what does that mean? guest: so we have been measuring consumer sentiment since 1946, so we have a long history of measures to look at, and the index is based on five questions, the same five questions throughout the entire period about personal finances,

their outlook for the economy and buying conditions. host: how do you do that? tell us about the mechanics. guest: we call people every month and it's a random sample of americans with cell phones so it ends up being a nationally representative sample. we are at the leading edge of methodology on surveys so we are able to take a scientific sample every month to take the pulse of americans in their views of the economy. host: tell us about what you found in january and the trends from december as well. guest: as you had mentioned in the introduction, we saw an enormous improvement in consumer views of the economy over the last two months, a two month consecutive game we have not seen in decades and this is off of low sentiment considering the

strength of some economic indicators. we had a historic low in june 2022. sentiment has been climbing slowly since then. it stalled in the fall of last year and in december and january, it improved quite substantially. that being said, views still are not all that sunny. we are still 7% below the historical average and they're still quite a bit a disagreement over whether we will have good or bad times ahead, but disagreement is an improvement over what we were seeing last year, which was a consensus that we were headed for bad times. host: what do you think is behind these numbers? guest: first and foremost, the continued slowdown and inflation. consumers notice that inflation has slowed down over the last year, but particularly this fall, they were reserving judgment over whether that would stick. historically speaking, this makes sense.

when we look back to the 1960's and 1970's period's of high inflation, sometimes it came roaring back again, so it makes sense consumers were reserving judgment, and after so many months of sustained declines in inflation, consumers were feeling more confident by december and january that inflation would not come back. host: i will put some numbers up onhe screen for viewers. there is consur sentiment index, current economic conditions, and then there's conser expectations index. can you explain those a little bit? guest: sure. the current conditions index and expectations index are components of the overall consumer sentiment index and the two of them measure different things. current conditions is how people assess the present situation in their personal finances as well as general business and buying

conditions for durables. the expectations index, the one were closely followed by economic forecasters and policymakers, includes questions on where people think the -- their personal finances are going in the year ahead, business conditions in the short run and long-run, and that's more forward-looking and is often seen as a leading indicator for the economy. host: and what do those numbers show? guest: and both of them, we have seen substantial improvements over the last few months. this is one of the really interesting things about this large increase. it is not just lge but across-the-board both for w people see their current situation awell as how they are viewing the outlook. we also saw increases across demographic groups, income, age, education and political

identification and this is unusual. it's typically the case that in a particular month you might see increases for some parts of the index and decreases for others, increases for some parts of the population and decreases for others, but over the last few months there's broad agreement things have improved. not great yet but improved over the really dour view we were seeing over the last year and a half. host: joanne hsu's surveys consumer director at the university of michigan research center. thanks for joining us. guest: thank you. host: we will go to your calls now starting with tony in phoenix, arizona. good morning, tony. caller: hi. great show. you do a fantastic job. apprecia it. i really do. i'm in the business of money. i trade currency, stocks, bonds for decades.

i would say people have kind of gotten used to the inflation because it's not coming dow it's not disinflation. it is stl ing up. and i'm old enough to remember -- you know, i live through the 1970's as a teenager, and worked on gas lines in new york, and i people kind of got used to the idea and i think people have adjusted their spending habits of what is important in their lives. that is the case with me and my extended family and my friends. we are in a pattern our people are ok -- where people are like, ok. groceries are through the roof. host: you are calling on the falling behind line.

do you feel like you are falling behind? you are not able to even hold steady? caller: i keep it simple even though i am pretty sophisticated in investing. i pull up a $100 bill out of my wallet. a $100 bill -- i used to go to the, you know, hipster coffee shops, not five years ago, and, you know, it used to be worth a heck of a lot more than it is today. and i look at the house prices. i have owned a lot of real estate over the decades. so everybody is falling behind. just keep it simple. you know. it's not going to buy you nearly as much as it did pre-covid, because that changed everything.

i don't have to repeat what you know. host: all right. we got it, tony. let's go to dave in washington. go ahead, dave. caller: hello? host: hi. go right ahead. caller: i think things are much better. it is like the roaring 20's. interest rates are up. you can get some interest on your money. and inflation is starting to go down and you can get a job any place. if you cannot find a job now, you do not want one. host: all right. talking to anne in kentucky. good morning, anne. caller: hi. good morning. i see that everything you go to buy is a lot more expensive. my place of employment where i have worked for 30 plus years are cutting back on employees. my husband is facing the same thing.

and my granddaughter cannot afford rent. grandchildren cannot afford rent. it has skyrocketed. what was $500 a month is $800 to $1200 a month no. you going to the grocery store and if you are not careful you can spend half your paycheck and the other half is spent on the electricity. and if you have a car issue -- i have an older car because that is all i can afford. my husband has an older vehicle. and if you have a repair, it takes two paychecks to pay for it. host: do you feel like things are continuing to get worse for you? caller: i sure do. host: all right. let's talk to lily next, hope mills, north carolina. good morning. caller: good morning. things are going great. host: willie? are you still there? caller: hello?

i'm here. things are going down for me, mainly my house insurance and my mortgage. those are the things going apply -- going up high. gas has come down in recent weeks. i'm here. gas has been going down in recent weeks. i will admit that. but there's so much of our economy and money being extracted for international stuff that has nothing to do with us. it's likely win a little bit on gas but lose on insurance and mortgage rates. we win on gas but lose on food and produce. and there's all kinds of reasons but when you are on the ground living every day on a fixed income, a middle to lower class income, none of these things the president is talking about and touting about his economic policy resonate with us normal people. host: willie, let's take a

listen to the president talking about his economic record. he received the endorsement of the united auto workers and talked about it. [video clip] >> during my presidency, we have opened 20 auto factories and more to come. [applause] we have created more than 250,000 auto jobs across america. [applause] i stood in solidarity with you on the picket line. as the president says, i'm on the picket line. donald trump went to a nonunion shop. let me tell you something i learned a long time ago. i'm going to be in the fight. i want to be in the fight with you, the uaw. i mean it. we have a big fight in front of us. we are fundamentally changing the economy of this country and

everybody's getting worried about it. some are seeing the light. change in the economy, taking it from an economy that takes -- changing the economy, taking it from an economy that gives to those of the top and giving people a fair shot. that's all people want, a fair shot. an even shot to be able to make it. that's what my economic plan is all about. that is what the uaw is about. that is what your battle has been about. those days are over in this country. when are people going to get their fair share? you have earned it. you have fought for it and you deserve it. host: and we are asking about your family's financial situation and denise is holding steady in milwaukee.

good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. you know, i just have several comments about the economy. first of all, i just think that our country has gotten to the point where a lot of us have just become whiners about everything in terms of our economy. a lot of these people just really want to be -- want the government to just take care of everything for them. they don't want any accountability for their own finances and how they do their own budgets. i hear people talking about problems with insurance. maybe you only need one kind until you can afford to get two kinds again. shop around for some better auto insurance. do the things that you need to do in order to streamline your

personal economy -- i know some things in the grocery stores are high, but go to other, alternate grocery stores. we have all debts we have -- we have aldi. i don't know if that's a national chain but you can get lower prices at that store.

you can find prices lower in your area. some things you might have to forgo or go somewhere where the prices are lower. if it's not anything that's a necessity, do without for a while until those prices come down. you can work around this economy. some things are still high, but for the most part, you know, things are going well in.this country gas prices are low. and people just refuse, refuse, refuse to give our president credit for anything. god for bid gas prices go up. they are going to blame joe biden. and when the prices go down, i just heard one of your callers -- he did say gas prices had come down. they have gone way down. so give him credit for the things he is doing right for crying out loud.

i think a lot of these people are just plain crazy about it. they do not give this president credit. host: got it, denise. speaking of consumer spending, this is in the wall street journal today. it says "credit card spending and delinquencies rise. from fuel and groceries to hotels and airline tickets, consumers are putting more purchases on credit cards and taking longer to pay them off. the four biggest banks reported higher credit card spending in 2023 compared to the previous year. since 2020, credit card spending has steadily increased at three of the four. the exception is citigroup, where credit card spending hit a recent peak in 2021. delinquency rates have also been on a steady rise since 2021. customers are not paying off their charges as quickly as they used to. -- as they used to."

we are asking about your financial situation, your family's financial situation. we will talk to dave next in cincinnati, ohio. good morning. caller: good morning. i hope you give me enough time to go through a few things. groceries, i buy things that are on sale. perishables i have to eat the next day but that is fine. it changes from week to week. something i never talked about is we are at decade highs. i never heard that stated. it is a fact. my brother owns quite a bit of stock. he helps me out financially. they take vacation.

my niece quit her job, got another job, quit that job, and is now working from home, making twice what she was getting paid at her first job. my nephew works from home and he does well also. so it is across-the-board. host: how are you doing, dave? caller: i have always been dependent on my family for help. i have social security, disability. my rent has been raised. my sister helped me and passed away last year and my brother took over and he's done a good

job helping me with the groceries. i make about half enough on food stamps. for the last two weeks, my brother has to pay. but he's willing to do that, thank god. but my family overall is doing really well. i would like to get into a few of the facts. host: quickly, dave. caller: ok. almost record low as far as unemployment. the rate of inflation is around 3%. we have now 4%. it's only 1% but it's been a long time since we have made more than inflation so we are beating inflation. host: darlene is next, minneapolis. good morning. caller: good morning there. i will use my constitutional free-speech to wake up america and say that both sides are to

blame for this nonsense and that it's not getting better. i am shoveling. i recently had a computer program problem with my pc i built and i had to get new parts of it -- parts for it and that costs money. to one of your callers who said that poor people should just starve and should not have any fun, everyone is deserving of fun. it's the way it that it is the way to survive capitalism, have -- it is the way to survive capitalism, have fun. host: i do not think anyone said poor people should starve. caller: sometimes food is expensive and when you are on ssi and ssdi, you get only so much money to spend and sometimes i cannot afford food. so if i have to make choices between affording and not affording food, then -- host: i want to ask you about that as far as not being able to afford food. are you getting support, food stamps? caller: they only give me $61 a

month. so basically i can live off $51 a month. it is not fair and we should be getting more. i got an increase from social security but joe biden is not doing enough for us poor people. he's not doing enough for trends people -- for trans people. i am scared. he should be doing more. host: what do you do when you run out of food? caller: i have to talk to my family and get support from them. i had to get my mom to help with her credit card because i'm on disability and i have to get her help. she told me i'm indebted to her. so sometimes you have to go back to people who treat you poorly just to get help. host: how old are you, darlene, if you don't mind me asking? caller: i'm 33.

but it could be worse. host: are you able to work? caller: no. i'm not able to work, sadly. i want to maybe eventually work if my art ever took off but i'm an artist on disability and i just do what i do to survive. host: got it. john in lakewood, ohio. good morning. caller: good morning. i'm 88 years old. i have watched c-span since the 1980's. count your blessings because kids with no medicaid are the worst ones this year. they are not getting unrolled -- getting enrolled. number two, gas prices and the stock market is all we hear. the income tax will be permanent starting this year. the average american does not have a permanent tax-cut. we should teach budgeting. this is a country of capitalism.

if you cannot teach budgeting, there's a hole in the bottom. sandor water goes through the whole. i'm not saying everything is hunky-dory, but have some discipline. the politicians are looking after themselves. they are polluting the air. i am not going to lecture you. if you cannot take care of the budget -- they have an oxymoron called a continuing resolution. so i watched c-span all the time. i checked my blood pressure every morning after watching the c-span. [laughter] host: i hope we are not increasing your blood pressure. caller: no. i have a sense of humor.

i came here in 1959. minneapolis weather, buffalo weather or anything else. they don't teach capitalism in high school. they don't teach anything that is american. host: all right. we appreciate you watching us. let's take a look at recent ads released by the trim campaign talking about the biden administration in their economy. host: everywhere you look, trump beats biden -- [video clip] >> everywhere you look, trump beats biden on the economy. mortgage rates low under trump, punishing hunter biden. personal and retirement investments up 40% under trump. hunter biden, your investments fell, along with other things. trump will make america's economy great again. >> i'm donald j. trump and i

approve this message. host: don in washington, d.c., your next. good morning. caller: i'm fortunate because i'm self-employed so i'm doing ok but i was homeless during covid because of the tourism business here in d.c., so things can swing widely. i purchased a house near capitol hill after being homeless. host: that's a big difference. and that is because torahs have come back to d.c.? caller: one thing i like to talk about is no one is talking about why there is such a low supply of low income or low-rent housing. where do you think 10 million people that cross the border -- they take the lowest priced housing they can find and that pushes up the rent for everybody. in d.c., a one bedroom is --

just one bedroom in a house is $1500. i would bedroom -- a one-bedroom apartment would be about $2500. those are rare anyway. a two bedroom apartment in d.c. is about $3000 a month. that's what i was paying before i bought this house. but at the interest rates, my house is $5,000 a month. host: and, john -- and john mentioned the border and immigration. this is "the hill" that says senate conservatives turn up opposition to "stinking pile of crab border deal -- of crap border deal." it says "and republicans are ratcheting up opposition to a bill that would address border security, proclaiming it a stinking pile crap that would allow millions more migrants to enter the country without

resistance." senator said crews argued at a press conference wednesday that former president trump was able to drive the number of migrants crossing the border to more than 500 people a day without this bill. and speaking of that, kelly is in texas. good morning. caller: good morning. how are you doing? host: good. how is it going out there? caller: the weather is great. we had a harsh week but that is over. i'm from texas so i don't like the very, very cold winter. i have grown up here. host: i hear you. caller: i like the 40's and 50's. host: how are things financially out there, kelly? caller: well, i tell you what. when trump was in office -- i'm a single lady, not married, no

kids, but i had never done better financially, economically, with my job, with my pay, with my 401(k). i don't own any real estate. i'm 55 years old, ok? i consider myself middle class. but the biden office is not the office of jfk. it's not the same democrats as jfk. host: get more specific when you talk about your 401(k). you have lost value in your 401(k)? are you still making as much at your job/ tell me about these -- at your job? tell me about the specifics. caller: i have been out of work for 17 months. i don't have as much as i should have in my 401(k) at 55. and i have had to take half of

it out to pay for rent, utilities. i have been going to the food bank. and like i said, the democratic party is not the same party as when jfk -- it's not the same party. host: are you still looking? for a job caller: no. thank goodness after 17 months, i will be starting a new one next week, thank goodness. host: congratulations. maybe things will turn around for you then, kelly. let's talk to wayne in salisbury, connecticut. good morning. caller: hi. how are you doing today? host: hi. caller: ok. things are not looking good for me and they have always been kind of rough.

i'm 67 years old. i had cancer at 24 years old. i was goin school, college, and unions -- i went to ups, actually, just to load boxes at i figured i would do that while going to schoo it'd be great. i'm also a vet. and i go in there, they say, you got the job. then they go and tell me you just have to gget the physical, so i gore and she goes take off your shirt and we are going to check your heart so i have a scar going up my abdomen. she literally walked to

her desk, closed the folder, and said, oh, we will be in touch with you. one year, a business was hiring, and they were hiring anybody and everybody kind of deal. i guess they had gotten the contract when they first -- the choppers they are using now. i forget the name of them. but i never got a job there. and my mother actually worked there so, you know, it's because of my physical state that no union wants to hire me because i have a history of cancer or whatever. and now i am 67 and i always had help from my family and whatnot, my mother, my sister especially. my brother does help me out.

now my sister's husband -- i am living on my own. i'm getting ava pension but just a medical pension -- a v.a. pension but just a medical pension. also social security. when i was going to get social security, i went to the v.a. offices and asked them, you know, i'm going to be getting social security next month, you know, what's going to happen? and she goes, don't worry about it. if they want to get hold of you, they will. that was, like, three years ago. so i did not hear from them. my first day was in march so i figured i will hear from them. host: so, wayne, are you -- do you feel like things could get better for you? caller: right now, no.

actually, i was getting social security and a v.a. pension and i just got a letter a couple months ago and -- because i'm making about $2000 now and they want to cut me back down. they want to take half of my social security, which is only $680, and my pension, which is like 13. they want to cut half my social security and part of my pension so i am making $1300 a month. and recently, my landlady wants me out. so i am having to move out at the end of the month. i don't have the money to go nowhere. i'm going to be going probably

to something -- you know, a military kind of deal for veterans, and i can only be there so long. and so it's either -- well, i live in connecticut and they want you to be making three times the amount of the rent that you are looking for. host: wayne, we certainly wish you the best but i have to move on to clifford in birmingham, alabama. good morning. caller: good morning. how are you doing? host: good. caller: i'm doing good. i'm holding my own. doing pretty good. worked hard. i was in the military. i managed my money to the in where things are ok. and i'm looking at the economy right now. le have forgotten what it was like when he came out of pandemic. everything was shut down.

when joe biden took over, he had problems in front of him, but he has turned thi around. and i heard donald trump say out of his own mouth -- so he could blame joe biden. i guess it would not bother him, but for these people complaining, crying about what they don't have, what we do if the economy crashes? that's what donald trump wants to have. and then the border? the bipartisan deal they have got now in the senate? trump once this border open so they can keep you as a political cudgel against joe biden. they don't want anything but to talk about this. so all these people talking about the border, you want the border closed, but some people in there that want to get it done. you have the senate trying to do it but donald trump says i want

the border open so i can talk about joe biden and i want the economy to collapse and all the people following this guys, this pied piper of lies, they are going to hell with him with gasoline drawers on. host: back to the economy, this is axios that says "americans are actually pretty happy with their finances." the article says that "americans overall have a surprising degree of satisfaction with their economic situation according to findings from the axios survey. that's in spite of dour views among certain subsets of the country and in contrast to consumer sentiment poles that remain stubbornly weak partly because of the lingering effects of 2022's inflation." delaware democratic senator earlier this week chris coons defended the biden administration's record on the economy. here's a portion from cnn. [video clip] >> the stock market hit an all-time high friday. we have an employment below 4%

for the longest stretch in 50 years. the president has presided over the creation of 14 million new private sector jobs and only two american presidents in the last century, donald trump and herbert hoover, left office with fewer americans working them when they started. joe biden has presided over a strong and robust economy that's great for middle-class americans. donald trump did not. >> can i push back on that a littleitse you have brought it up? what you said about the data. it may not be wrong. but you know better than i do, the way people feel is how they vote. and despite all of those accomplishments, president biden is having trouble breaking through with voters, particular working-class voters, young voters, who he needs come historically has had as part of his coalition, they are not feeling it. how does the campaign need to change strategies so that they feel it and do not just hear it

and see it in data points? >> funny you should mention that. just last week, consumer confidence took the single greatest jump, positive junk, in 30 years. as inflation have come down, prices have come down, and we are beginning to see the impact in people's pocketbooks of president biden's leadership. for example, insulin out-of-pocket costs are capped at $35 a month. it used to be hundreds of dollars. we understand how that's a significant step forward for the american public. we are beginning to see the positive impacts of president biden's leadership. host: that was senator kunz from sunday. we have a poll going on on our x feet at -- x feed at @cspanwj.

those that said they are getting head were 20%, holding steady 55%, and 25% falling behind. you can purchase a pay -- you can participate in that poll on x. mark in bakersfield, go ahead. caller: i only have 6% left on my battery but i will get this fast. holding steady. i have 1900 dollars a month in disability and a pension. i'm 60 years of age. i've been homeless in a shelter since march and i'm getting housed in the bout. and looking for a wife. thank you. host: frank in arizona, good

morning. frank, are you there in yuma? frank is not there. benny, louisville, kentucky. go ahead. caller: yes, ma'am. i'm doing good. i just think it's not a scam per se but i know under obama, under the obama administration, it was the same talking points about struggling and how bad the economy was and high inflation, but everyone throughout the entire world went through high inflation. what i noticed is i would say republicans complain.

this is more about his administration and the economy -- administration than the economy. i have family to, you know that family that i have family -- i have family who work in hospitals. they do fine. of course they would like more money but they are doing pretty good. so i don't see it being all doom and gloom like they present on fox news and things like that. that's what i have to say. host: all right. and here is cnn.com that says this -- "it is still too hard to be a working parent in america according to janet yellen. she is the treasury secretary. in a major speech set to be delivered today in chicago,

secretary allen plans to outline her plan to help middle-class families overcome affordability challenges." according to the excerpt, "our economic agenda is far from finished. there is more we would like to do to support the middle class." we will be covering that speech of treasury secretary janet yellen's. she will be talking about the biden administration's economic policy. it's hosted by the economic club of chicago. you can watch that live on c-span at 2:00 p.m. eastern and on c-span now, our free mobile video app and online at c-span.org,. jeff, indianapolis, indiana, good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. as far as my economic situation, it is great. i'm doing great. i work for a major corporation here in indianapolis and, by the way, they make insulin. i will not give their name but

we are one of the manufacturers across the world that does make insulin so we are glad to help people that have diabetes. as far as my canonic situation is concerned, i got a 12% raise last year -- as my economic situation is concerned, i got a 12% raise last year, and i can work as many hours as i want. my economic situation is great. i'm not complaining at all. this is what people have to understand about economics and i don't think people do understand economics because they don't understand it. you cannot have a bad economy with a less than 4% unemployment rate. any bad economy going back to 1970's, the unemployment rate goes up. so if we have unemployment below

4%, we cannot have a bad economy. i don't know why people are listening to these folks that are lying over and over again because there'll agenda -- because their whole agenda is to get someone back in the white house. the economy is in good shape. it could be better but at least it's not as bad as it was during the pandemic and that's what we had to come out of. i think joe biden has done an excellent job economically. host: let's go to newark, new jersey. brock, good morning. caller: good morning. i am unemployed right now, got laid off due to an audit at my job that was not right. and i have been looking for work and i have been on interviews. host: how long have you been looking for work, brock? caller: honestly, since about november. i was in shock. i went from working three jobs to working at eight nonprofit,

working in a community doing -- at a nonprofit, working in a community doing great work, so i was in shock. i went back and started looking for a job because i was not sure we would be able to come back. i'm going on these interviews and it's like a waste of time. people are not really hiring. one interview i went on, the guy said they are fully staffed, but just doing interviews because he likes to do interviews, right? it's hard out here because, you know, the people in power are not thinking long term. they are just looking at these quick solutions. i voted for biden. i supported biden and kamala and now i am just not feeling it. i'm one of those people that's not feeling it no more. to get my vote -- i have student loan debt.

i have $35,000 in student loan debt. i want to work in education so i can get my debt dismissed sooner than later, but people are talking about i have to pay $4000 to get my transcript. so it's like how can i even get ahead if these people are trying to hold on -- i just need to know where my credits are. it's just a lot. i mean, i'm looking forward to the future because i have faith and i think people with faith, you know, they are going to be able to get through it but, you know, i don't know where i would be without my faith. host: we wish you the best there, brock. david in flint, michigan, good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to say to that guy sometimes you have to move from the area that you in. i would think new jersey is a real high-priced state. so is new york. so is texas.

so is florida and california. sometimes you have to be willing to move from those real high-priced states where everybody want to move to and move to a state like my state, michigan, where you can get a job all over the state and rents are cheaper. and i would like to say i watch hdtv and see how much people are paying for these average looking homes in states like florida, texas, paying $800,000 for a house that looks like it's worth 170 $5,000 here in michigan. i would like to also say gas is cheap. i'm a 71-year-old man. i have been retired almost 16 years and i'm doing excellent. host: how much is gas out there, david? caller: gas is, like, $2.75 in flint, michigan, where i live. and it's not bad.

it's not bad. i'm doing excellent. i have two nice cars and they are both paid for and i paid my credit card off after christmas. so i'm completely debt-free. so i helped my godsons. i have one godson that is just like my son that moved to dallas from flint and i'm trying to get him to come back home because a one bedroom apartment in dallas is like $1300 or $1400 and he could get a beautiful two bedroom here in flint for, light, $900, $800 -- for, like, $900, $800? i'm trying to get him to come back but younger people like bustling cities. the american people need to stop being crybabies and whiners. host: caller in south carolina, good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call.

i am an 84-year-old widow on a fixed income. i draw my husband's social security, which was higher than mine, and i also have a decent retirement, so i am doing ok. i'm holding steady. we see people who were not an art -- who are not and our church has a food pantry so we can. but i think about how much life has changed. when i was in high school, everybody rode the bus to school. well, now, high school students, a lot of them drive cars to school. they don't ride the bus anymore. and when you have extra cars, you are paying extra car payments, extra insurance, and didn't states like ours, you pay taxes -- and in states like

ours, you pay taxes on those extra cars. people don't seem to be able to adjust down. i will not pay $40 for roast beef. i will buy something else instead. so just like we did in world war ii, which i remember as a child, you learned to make do with less. plant a garden, by less convenient foods and prepare your own. it's cheaper and probably healthier. but there are ways to accommodate with -- host: juanita, since you have seen so much, i want to ask you do you think things will get better or worse with the economy? caller: i think things will get better. but we have so many other problems we have to deal with now. i don't know if they will get better immediately, but i think people will hopefully learn to cope better with reduced

circumstances. host: let's talk to sean in iowa. caller: north carolina. host: north carolina. thank you. go right ahead. caller: yeah. thanks for taking my call. under trunk, i spent all of my -- under trunk, i spent all of my benefits that i had put away, benefits, everything. now everything is going fantastic. both of my boys have more options for jobs in this state right now than they can imagine. cosco will be going teamsters. everywhere, anybody need a job? apply to the post office. they are hiring everywhere. joe biden is a rockstar. he's the greatest president since fdr and the media puts him down because, you know what? the rich want their tax break.

pay your taxes like we have for over 50 years. look at wages. wages are up. here is another one. joe biden took care of that. host: we look at republican tim scott. he has endorsed president trump for 2024 and he is comparing trump's record with biden's. [video clip] >> think about low inflation, low unemployment and high opportunity. look at the laffer curve. we understand the inverse relationship between taxation and revenue not just to the american people but the federal government. who provided us more than $4000 for the average family in the country? donald trump.

who lowered and kept inflation at 2%, not nine percent like joe biden? donald trump. who had the most inclusive economy and history of our nation, creating 7 million jobs? donald trump. the american people unite around the issues that impact their kitchen tables, their kids, and more importantly, their grandkids? who makes america's future stronger, healthier and why i am optimistic about it? donald trump. end of story. host: i hear -- >> i hear you. host: fred in farmingdale, new jersey, good morning. caller: i usually don't call but i called because i think i heard a gentleman say he got in a dispute and left a job. there's been many times i did not agree with what was going on

on my job, but i knew what i had to deal with. i stayed. if i had planned to leave, i would have stayed and worked and put in a resume at other places and worked on that job until i got a new job. you cannot just jump up and leave a job. no matter what jobs you go on, there will be things you don't agree to, but to just leave -- take this. i'm not going to take this no more. host: how are things going with you financially? caller: me? host: yeah. caller: i'm surviving. i live on a fixed income but i'm surviving. i'm holding my own. i'm holding my own. host: all right. let's talk to william in jackson, mississippi. caller: thank you for taking my call. i want to get on the young

folks. thank you for having this particular platform. i want any congressman listening to this program to consider this in the next session. everybody that is on social security, disability, ssi, those are things they earn. they should be $300. to come -- you know. host: william, we are having a hard time hearing. are you still there? caller: the price gouging on groceries. i think everybody that is on ssi, social security, retirement, they should get that. you know, that's what they earned. and 50 something dollars is not going to get it. i want to say this for the young people. when you are young, you will

have to get a job. it's not going to just come to your front door. you'll have to either transfer, leave the state. i drove trucks for 30 years. that is something you have to do. you just have to get out and do it. i mean, you will just have to get out and do it. the railroad is paying $40 an hour. i mean, i'm in mississippi, and i know at least 10 places around here paying $18, $20 an hour. it's like my uncle telling me how it was in the 1930's and 1940's. you can just go down the street and get a job. you are being lazy and her mama needs to kick your behind out the house. host: arnold, port arthur, texas, good morning. caller: i'm 89 years old. my wife and i have been married for 66 years and we are doing fine. i have lived here in port

arthur. i have good retirement and social security coming in and we are doing well. we don't have a lot of extra money but we have enough to live on and we are doing fine. host: all right. glad to hear that. russell in lexington, north carolina, good morning. russell, are you there? caller: yes. i'm here. can you hear me? host: yes. go right ahead. caller: can you hear me? host: we can. go ahead, russell. caller: hello. i am 85 years old and i'm doing fine, my wife is doing fine. but one thing i called about -- showed that clip of our president going up the steps and he fell to her three times. that's not good.

host: ok. is that all you wanted to say? caller: that's all. host: all right. that will be our last call for this segment. thank you to everyone who called in. up next, the new york university center for social media and politics talking about how ai could impact the 2020 for election. later, the bulletin of the atomic scientists released its clock yesterday. at 9:15 a.m., we will be joined by a retired general, a member of that security board to talk about what the doomsday clock means and the threats facing the u.s. and the world in the next year. we will be right back. ♪ >> friday nights, watch c-span's

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informed, our republic thrives. get informed straight from the source on c-span. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. from the nation's capitol, to wherever you are. the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span, powered by cable. ♪ "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back, we are joined by zeve sanderson and is the executive director director of the center for social media and politics. welcome to the program. guest: thanks are having me. host: talking about artificial intelligence deepfakes, can you would swing with that is? guest: a deepfake is the manipulation or fabrication of an image, audio recording or video through automated means with the intended effect of making something appear to happen that didn't happen. it's a potential threat in the last two election cycles.

this moment is different. we have long had technology to manipulate content in different mediums. viewers at home no hollywood movies have been doing this for many years. it's expensive and time-consuming. it took trained specialist on the software. it would wired many hours. now with a i, we have a different situation where we have the technology to create deepfakes have been democratized and has lowered the cost and increase the access. host: let's take a look, this was a fake robo call of what sounded like president biden calling new hampshire voters ahead of the primary, telling them not to vote. >> a bunch of malarkey. you know the value of voting democratic winner votes count. it's important you save your vote for the november election. we need your help in selecting -- and electing democrats up and down the ticket.

voting this tuesday only enables the republicans in their quest to elect donald trump again. it makes a difference in november but not this tuesday. host: again, that was not president biden although it sounded an awful lot like him. your comments on that? guest: it did sound a lot like him. if i had been on the other end of that phone call, i don't think i would have been able to tell the difference that it wasn't him. this is a challenging moment in the information environment. we are sort of interested when it comes to these deepfakes, it's a lot of the deepfakes we have seen have been audio only. they haven't been video. one of the reasons is because audio is hard to fact check. if someone want to created a fabricated video of joe biden, his every mood -- move is watched and recorded. there might be a few minutes or

a few hours before it gets fact checked. this is much harder. it's a challenge moving into 2024. it would have been easy to make that using current technology. you can upload a few minutes of a politicians voice and create an ai version of that. the public should go out with a healthy bit of skepticism. but not too much skepticism. host: if you would like to join our conversation about ai and its use in campaign 2024, you can do so on our lines by party, democrats (202) 748-8000, republicans (202) 748-8001 an independents (202) 748-8002. you can join us on text and social media. you said this is being

democratized but how easy is it to do this now? could i do it? what kind of technical background do you need? guest: i think you probably could do it but i don't know what your technical background is. these technologies are very acceptable. depending on the different company, different companies have different rules around what their technology can be used for. certain companies like openai prohibit this type of content from being made using any of their products. there are a number of products out there, many of them are very good and i would say they are not quite as easy as click and play but they are getting there. host: another part of this would be what some people are calling the liars dividend. can you explain that? guest: the liars dividend, that

refers to an information environment where there is a lot of anxiety around false or manipulated or fabricated content circulating. what it allows the actors to do is claim that something that did happen, that actually did happen that it didn't happen. you can imagine in the context of 2016, it's sort of an audio clip without video or a photo attached to it. as we just saw with the joe biden call, it's easy to make this sort of audio content. you can imagine donald trump claiming it was false. it will give strategic actors the general context to claim something that's true is actually false. host: let's take a look at a couple of other examples. the first one is an ad put out by the republican national committee just after president biden announced his reelection

campaign last year and it features ai generated fake images. >> we cannot call the 2024 presidential race for joe biden. >> this morning we invaded taiwan. >> financial markets are in freefall after 500 regional banks have shuttered their doors. >> the border was overrun by 80,000 illegals yesterday. >> its escalating crime and the fentanyl crisis. >> who is in charge here? it feels like the train is coming off the tracks. host: that is using ai generated with images of the future. should that be allowed? guest: they are both at the federal ants federal level in the state level. lawmakers and regulators are considering what to do here.

my colleagues argue two things, that first we should target the electoral harm being done, not the technologies being used. there are well-financed national campaigns. we have access to more nascent technologies to fabricate material so we should focus on what the electoral harm we are nervous about rather than the underlying technology given that the cat is out of the bag. we are still early days here. a lot of policy, rather than jumping the gun and focusing on the wrong things should really focus on promoting your knowledge about how the

generative ai might impact elections and especially in these kind of years so there should be a big focus on transparencies to make sure any time generative ai is use that a viewer at home would know it but also promoting research to understand what the effects of this sort of content is on voters. host: when you say transparency, if you've got some bad actors out there, they will not be transparent that they are using deepfake. guest: they will not be transparent, true. it might put an onus on the mechanism by which its reaching people whether it's broadcast networks on television requiring them to do due diligence in order to apply labels, social media companies applying labels. at the state level, they been considering there being penalties for not disclosing. host: you wrote a piece for

brookings that essentially says that ai can be misunderstood and in some cases can -- the fear of ai can be overhyped, explain that. guest: i think a lot of our fear moving into 2024 is specifically around the relationship between ai and misinformation. we start with a review of the literacy. what do we know over the last 10 years about the way misinformation has her -- has or has an impact elections. have they impacted votes. we make the argument that we've been potentially concerned about the impact of misinformation. the news doesn't really make up a majority of people's media consumption and when it does, people tend to consume high-quality media.

when misinformation exists, it tends to be heavily concentrated in the extremes of either party. it does not tend to reach most americans. for us, rather than saying using the evidence argue that ai will impact 2024, instead we say, what might be different about this moment we are in. we focus on three different ways ai might make misinformation impacted or directly impact elections or to make it more of it and there is a simple math. misinformation is to break into the mainstream because there is more of it. it can make it more persuasive or effective than it could be better targeted. reporters and 2016, their tweets

had grammatical errors. tiktok is is very different social media platform which really sends content to users who haven't opted in to a particular social network. i don't need to follow you to get your content but is just reaching me so that dynamic of information diffusion might change the effect of who the information is reaching and not the effect it has. host: we will get your calls shortly. democrats, (202) 748-8000, republicans (202) 748-8001 and independents (202) 748-8002. you can start calling in now. i want to ask you about public opinion about this. ap did a poll in october of this past year and i will read you some of the results and have you comment. how concerned are peoe out the spread and increase ofalse

information, 58% said they we concerned, 54% have not read or heard much at all about ai and 30% report they have used in ai chatbot or an image generator. what do you make of those numbers? guest: i focused on the first number which is the level of anxiety. i think we talked about after the joe biden phone call, i have a level of skepticism. by healthy, i mean people should understand that these technologies exist and they have capacity to produce content you played on your show. however, here, we are a nonpartisan research center. what we care about most is democracy and democratic society. what i'm nervous about is that it has become a great anxiety

around the use of these technologies to create false or fabricated content. the trust in the general information environment continues to erode. we are still seeing that people tend to consume high-quality incredible content from sources like c-span. i think going into 2024, some skepticism of understanding that these technologies exist is important but not so much that people just stop trusting what they see. host: let's talk to viewers, deborah is up first, a republican in west chester, ohio. caller: good morning and thank you for taking my call. my concern is that we may put ourselves in a position that we will always have to question original source. when you look at section 230, i'm thinking by this time, we should have solved and resolved

that and we will never know what social media platforms would have been an and not holding them accountable. the other concern is free speech as described in our constitution. we protect speech when it's generated by a human. what about speech that's generated by chat? these are major constitutional questions. we are not real good at resolving some of these. as we develop the technology, we discuss these issues and we wait until almost too late and everybody is used to these various things. there has to be something, sometimes a disclosure on every article or add that says there was or was not artificial intelligence used in generating the images. host: what do you think? guest: i think sometimes

transparency is great. i think transparency should be a big piece of this. i want to pick up on something that was mentioned -- mentioned on social media. i agree when it came to the development of social media and how quickly it penetrated society, the legal side responded but i don't directly comment on that. on the research side, when it came to giving researchers like us the type of data and funding we needed to do this type of research, it was too slow. we are still catching up on understanding the effects of social media platforms. when it comes to the development of ai technologies, the pace of development is fast and i hope we don't make the same mistake again. we have this all of society approach to understand what the effect of these technologies

are. lawyers and policymakers go out and argue in court or the halls of congress about what to do here, we hope they are given high-quality information in order to do their work. host: ira in louisburg, north carolina, democrat. caller: good morning. host: go right ahead. caller: the horse has already left the barn. i can tell you that law enforcement agencies are already using the technology you are speaking about. there is a video or audio clip this is one thing and if you don't video the video, that video will have changed. it will say something different and the audio say something different, it's already happening.

law enforcement is not always accountable for something they do but the only time they are is when people take video or audio. it's happening like that right now. everyone of my audio clips and video clips have been altered. i filed something with the department of justice to have a case investigated. host: all right, your comment? guest: in terms of my direct research, i tend to focus on elections and electoral politics. we are seeing these sorts of harms occur elsewhere in a law-enforcement context. that's one of the primary ones that people worry about.

this is related to the liars dividend. suddenly this gets the general context for police officers who potentially said or did something. they can claim that video was fabricated using a tool. the transparency and accountability efforts we've gotten over the last few years holding law enforcement accountable are potentially at risk. given the dynamics i mentioned. that's worrying and i hope lawmakers and the courts are able to understand the gravity of this technological moment we are in. host: we got a question from text -- do you know anything about that? guest: i think the challenge now is that there are many technologies. it's not a monolith.

either the actual technology itself, what models are being developed but also the companies. i think right now, there are some companies that are acting in quite good states that are trying to consider the potential harms being done, companies like openai which just released their election policy that i found to be quite considerate and i applaud them and hope they continue in that regard. there are other companies here in the u.s. and abroad that are not putting up those sort of guardrails. in terms of the funding sources, i'm not sure but one of the places we do focus is really trying to hold these companies to a high standard with both the policies they put on the books and the way they enforce policies. host: hendersonville, north carolina, independent. caller: hey, i am currently

studying artificial intelligence programming in college. one thing we recently discussed is how ai is used in society and how widely used it is. anybody that has a smartphone uses ai. it has -- it lives in every part of our aspect. in every aspect of our lives when it comes to technology, ai has been there for a while. with the fear of what it can do or what people can do using it for elections, because it creates a decent amount of fear, i don't want another ai winter to develop because people are afraid -- i've been trying to get it degree in this and get a career in this. host: your comments? guest: it is true that ai is

quite pervasive. one of the challenges when we talk about ai is what exactly we mean. it's quite a broad term. one of the jokes in computer science spaces is ai is anything that doesn't work yet. one of the things that we are concerned about is that we will -- our fear of the effects will end up being greater than the actual effect. we focus on what democratic consequences it might have and when people become to skeptical the information they see to the point where we just see general erosion and trust in the information the media environment it there is a potential economic impact of that fear especially when it comes to global competition and that's what the caller touched on. host: we also have another text --

i guess the new hampshire ap is investigating so we will find out is for the judicial side of it. do you think more groups will be encouraged to do this kind of thing? guest: yes, i think it's an omen of the year ahead. as i mentioned, especially when it comes to audio, that's going to be quite a bit more challenging because there is so little other context for people to use in order to potentially fact check it themselves. also, over the past couple of years, the number of robo calls has continued to expand. that could be a place where we see quite a lot of concern. people focus on scams or concerns about automated robo calls. i think we are going to see

strategic actors were motivated actors here and abroad try to use these technologies in order to shift the information landscape. it's going to take in all of society approach. i think lawmakers should understand the gravity of the situation but also make sure they are leveraging the highest quality information they have in order to pass really good laws. journalists who cover the space and researchers study it and private companies need to be really good actors and really try to understand that the elections are an important democratic process and they need to do their part. host: new milford, connecticut, independent. caller: good morning, thank you for taking my call. technology is one thing and it's wonderful and we all have two make an effort to learn as much as we can and understand it.

besides the technology, there's something called moral and ethics. as a society, we are lying if -- is the accepted thing to do. it's a problem for the majority of the population. if lying is accepted for them, who is telling the truth? thank you very much. host: any comment there? guest: i think there needs to be public accountability for using these technologies in harmful ways. one of the things i wanted to mention is in regard to transparency, one of the callers mentioned the content either should be logged to make sure -- if artificial intelligence is used in label. one thing we focus on here when

it comes to truth is the devil is in the details. it matters whether the label, the disclosure comes before or after. i hope when we are out there trying to promote truth, as a society, lawmakers focus on the little pieces that really impact the public. host: john is in warrenton, virginia, republican, good morning. caller: good morning, i like that question about dark money coming in from overseas. i almost see this video you showed is sort of like the initial stages of the computer age where we played pong. ai will be used for more complicated and interesting things. i get 25 robo calls a day and they've changed my phone. i can't answer calls on my phone anymore because of robo calls.

i don't really think we -- they are trying to sell me something. i think it's an attack and at some sort of weird way to change my life. remember in the 90's when the internet came on, how much it changed our life and how it puts the economy forward and there is so many new businesses. i wonder if ai will do the same thing. it looks like it will be able to solve a lot of problems and one more question, i can remember -- host: i have a question about how you think ai could impact the election, what you think of that? caller: yeah, i'm an early adopter for c-span call in. i was listening the first day c-span was on radio back in the 90's and i was what they used to call a news junkie in the 90's when i was in college.

i was atumbc. how will it affect the election? the little bit of extra stuff they can do with ai will be nominal. the harm is nominal. we already don't believe what's going on. host: ok. let's talk to germantown, maryland, good morning. caller: with the last go around with the social media companies, the government wasn't able to make any substantial change in the average american's life. with this, we are worried that even videos on our phone may be an accident or maybe a protest rally, maybe bigotry, that goes against the opposition or when

it comes to these companies that are owned by one major conglomerate and if it goes against their bottom line, they want to get it into her phone and they can alter these things. the biggest challenge for the government that has affected the public hasn't been that big or important in technology. they tend to let things go by like recently with apple changing their product to be manufactured in india. there's something on the devices they change. we didn't hear a big penalty from the government. they don't have stringent restrictions. i don't have faith of the government will do something. do they have a certain agency? if we created the space force, we know how important it is to

be able to gather intelligence and be able to communicate. we created a space force. host: we got your question. how impactful do you think the federal government can be? guest: the federal government can be very impactful. one of the glimmers of hope here we see is that the federal government and state governments and governments internationally are trying to do what they didn't do during the social media era, the beginning of social media which is they are trying to understand these trade-offs between democratic benefits and potential democratic arms. part of this is fact-finding, getting good research that the laws that are passed are high-quality we saw yesterday, the national science foundation announced a large new funding program in ai to do exactly

this. we've seen governments move much faster whether it's joe biden's executive order or the bills at the state level we are seeing proposed. they are sort of learning from the mistakes during the social media era and i think they can be quite impactful. host: you mentioned the executive order. i have it here on the fact sheet, president biden issues executive order on trustworthy artificial intelligence, that came out in october. what impact do you think that will have? guest: in terms of the impact it will have come i think it's too early to tell. some of the pieces of it will need to be updated as the technology changes. for example, it focuses on models and technology of a certain size. as the technology advances, we will either rethink that where

they've focused on large computers and now our computers are quite small and even handheld. in general, the orientation and policymaking is towards moving quickly and trying to learn much more quickly about technology and i've seen the federal government do so in the past. you need to bring experts in the federal government to understand these technologies easily. they have engaged with everyone from leaders of these companies to academics and its been promising. there's been community groups calling for action who will be impacted by these technologies and they make sure these laws get done. it's early days to understand or pinpoint the impact of the executive order but i think in general, it's exciting to see the general policymaking for acting more quickly than we have

in the past. host: let's go to augustine, georgia next, independent. good morning. caller: good morning and thank you for c-span, we enjoy watching you particular on the subject. i would ask your guest, when the government says you have to label the ai, how weekly everyone will label that they may or may not have ai in their material. that's the problem. they will be one step ahead of you forever, thank you. guest: absolutely, when it comes to labeling, we've seen even before ai that timing was a big piece of it, information moves so quickly in air digital information age that people tend to be exposed to information quite quickly on social media so the label is applied hours or days later and it will not have

the impact. the devil will be in the details here with policymaking. we will see what sort of enforcement mechanisms are there. another area where we might cai be able to have a positive effect is getting ai to do this identification and labeling work. again, it's early days but i agree with the caller that the timing will be a big piece and the strategic anna faris actors will want to sidestep whatever policies -- in the strategic and nefarious actors will want to sidestep whatever polities -- policies are instituted. caller: being this technology was created by dark media, all your communications is controlled by the government.

being that weekend not find people who hurting children all over the world but we have foreign dictator governments that we work with and we help, being that computers and this gentleman said the social media was more complicated than this other ai but other countries are building robots. they are building them to replace human beings. also, law enforcement, the majority of people of color are torturing people all over the planet. host: we are really focused on ai in the campaign, do you have something specifically about the election? caller: yeah, i think the whole system is rigged. every president that's ever been president has been related to the king of england. obama was even related to the king of england. host: where getting a little off the subject.

let's talk to jack in georgia caller: good morning. i am completely for technology. artificial intelligence as well. it seems like the country itself , what is evil is good and what is good is evil. how do you think artificial intelligence is going to have the impact on that statement i just made? i think it can come from the republican side or the democratic side or just individuals who own corporations and whatnot. what is your thought on that and thank you? host: we also have this from miae onx - guest: i can respond to both of

those quickly. in terms of, the general statement of good and evil is that when we have these generalized fears of technology, we tend to fall into this camp. it's either we see these technologies as dystopian or they will ruin everything. research needs to come in here and identifies specific harms and specific benefits. and use that research to help policymakers and regulators do their job better. as well as the public understanding technology in a more nuanced way. in terms of credible sources of information, i think we've thought about this creation of journalism and media but certainly quite a bit over the last 25 years.

we are a nonpartisan research center. we don't have investments in personal or academic investments in this or that media company. instead, what i would focus on when it comes to credibility is whether journalists or media companies have policies in place we consider to be credible, whether they fact-check their stories, whether they track stories that there should -- that are shown to be false or they do things like disclose who writers are and their funding sources are. i think credibility is an out calm. people can have diverse political perspectives and ideologies but they need to have a commitment to a process that involves good journalism and that could come from a variety of sources with different views. host: highland park, illinois, independent, good morning. caller: good morning. given what happened in the 2020

election with the fbi and coordinating with the former twitter which is now x an facebook possibly. it happened in a nefarious way. ai is supposed to be something for good and to help humanity progress. given what happened in the 2020 election and interference by the government, it worries me that it is maybe being designed to be used for nefarious purposes against humanity as opposed to helping humanity. and to control humanity. that's what worries me and those that are designing ai are companies like google which actually have gone the wrong direction. as well as meta-.

they should be checked and who they are cordoning with and who they are hiring to design programs because there is definitely election interference. precisely government administration, i think they are all supporting the ccp and they want to get at our technology in varied nefarious ways to control our elections and so forth. that should be investigated from the angle of this administration that maybe wants to abuse ai ahead of everybody in order to control. host: go ahead, and comment there? guest: my general comment is that one of the things we hear when we talk to folks certainly in the public opinion polling, it is general anxiety around this new technology. that's where think researchers

can move quickly in this space so that we can bring high-quality evidence. there is no evidence now that ai is being used in the election context for controlling the public but what i do here is there is a general anxiety and i hope we can get high-quality information out to the public. host: last call, montgomery village, maryland, independent. caller: hi, thank you for putting me through. i heard the woman talking about it's not necessarily the technology that's the issue but the people in charge of it. my worry is never that the technology will take over and we will have two be at its beckon call. at the end of the day, people are writing these algorithms and there is a lot of corruption government. i'm not surprised that people are hesitant about it. we all have the capacity to do good and bad.

it's a matter of choice. that's all i had to say. if you're focusing on the out comes whether things are good or bad, you can use things to manipulate and say whatever you want. it will be a moral issue at the end of the day. ultimately, humanity, human problems need human solutions. technology is a tool. i think it's a little bit deeper than that. that's all i have to say. host: last word? guest: as a social scientist, the last thing the caller said is speaking my language. i completely agree that these are human problems that need human solutions and we need to understand -- in addition to understanding the technology itself. i mentioned i was happy to see the government building out that technical capacity internally.

we all a process from a human centric way. we study how the public is impacted by this. i don't think we have a full understanding of how it's impacted. when it comes to elections, we need a better understanding of how to mitigate the harm. this is going to be here and it will impact people in every way whether it's their work life and labor or socially. i think we need to a human center point of view. i hope people at home or thinking about it this way and journalist and government are making sure that people are the center of the way they are thinking here. host: new york university center for social media and politics, executive director, you can find them at csmapnyu.org. thank you for joining us today. in "washington journal "washington journal about 30

minutes on," we will talk about the new doomsday clock assessment by the bulletin of the atomic scientists with retired major general robert latiffe. first, more of your phone calls after the break in open forum. it's your chance to weigh in on any political or public policy issue on your mind this morning. the numbers are on your screen and you can start calling in now. ♪ >> discover the heartbeat of democracy with c-span voices 2024 as we engage voters nationwide asking what issue is most important to you in this election and why announc.er: >> this upcoming election my most important issue is human rights. i believe all women should have rights over their bodies. i believe my family, friends and girlfriend should have the right to do with they want with their body and i'm pro gay and t

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1979 >> since 1979, in partnership with the cable industry, c-span has provided complete coverage of the halls of congress, from the house and senate floors, to congressional hearings, party briefings, and committee meetings. c-span gives you a front row seat of how issues are debated and decided. with no interruption and completely unfiltered. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. ♪ "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back to "washington journal." it's open forms who we are interested in what you have to say this morning. a few programming notes -- authorization for the national flood insurance program is set to expire in early march unless congress votes to extend it. lawmakers will hear today from athens, ohio mayor steve patterson and the head of greater new rns inc., an economic develop an organization

on the importance of renewing the program you can watch the senate committee hearing live at 10:00 a.m. eastern right after this show. that will be here on c-span and c-span now which is our free mobile video app or online at c-span.org. that's right after this program. also, treasury secretary janet yellen is said to deliver an address about the u.s. economy and the biden administration's policy during an event hosted by the economic club of chicago. you can watch that live at 2:00 p.m. eastern here on c-span, c-span now and c-span.org. just a quick update about the border from punch bowl news -- this is the senate minority leader mitch mcconnell in a private senate republican meeting on ukraine.

that's according to punch bowl news. let's go to the phones now and talk to andrea, silver spring, maryland, independent, good morning. caller: good morning. i'm very concerned about what's going on in the middle east. specifically the fact that our u.s. troops in u.s. interests are being attacked and sanctions aren't being but against iran.

they are not enforcing sanctions on iran. there are sanctions on the book and they been waving billions of dollars in sanctions relief to iran. in the meantime, her u.s. troops are being attacked and we lost two u.s. navy seals, two of her finest soldiers. it's essentially war with iran, denying that hezbollah has an affiliation with iran. it's obviously foolish and i think we need to focus on the source of these attacks. host: all right, anne, new york state, democrat, good morning. caller: my two main issues for the upcoming election which i

think are interrelated -- reproductive rights and gun safety. women need to have freedom over their own bodies and everyone needs to have the freedom not to be subject to endless mass shootings. in 2016, trump said women should be punished for taking an abortion. he is saying women should be punished for having, shall we say, recreational relations, for seeking health care, for not wanting to die if the pregnancy goes horribly wrong. and even in texas, for using public roads to travel to another state area if that's not fascism, i don't know what is. the only person who needs to be punished is trump for stealing nuclear and highly classified documents and trying to prevent

a peaceful transfer of power and also for sexually abusing women. thank you. host: in new york, independent, go ahead. caller: how are you? i want to comment about what's going on in texas. we have governor abbott there basically telling the federal government they can come in and enforce the supreme court of taking down barbed wire. it amazes me that these are individuals who call themselves the party of law and order. he is advocating that they should not follow the supreme court ruling. also regarding immigration, i've never heard this thing where there is an opportunity to solve a problem but we are not going to solve the problem because this is a campaign issue for the nominee.

immigration has been talked about for years. they had a government when trump was elected in two years in, he had the senate and the congress and the wall was built. the only immigration issue is when a democrat is in office. it makes no sense why you are in government, you should be able to solve problems, not use issues that other people can run on. host: do you have ideas about what the solution can be at the border? caller: i would like it to be solved and a humane way. we have all this opportunity with people risking their lives to get here and have a life for themselves and to build something. it makes no sense to me why people are treating these individuals so horribly. it's really mind-boggling.

we have the ability to solve this problem in the u.s. congress. i don't agree with everything about it but it goes a long way to trying to solve the problem. you see these politicians and it's not both sides, it's the republican party that doesn't want to govern and it makes things so much more difficult for the american people. host: we got it. this is the headline from the ap about what he was just saying -- gloria is next, indianapolis, indiana, democrat, good morning.

caller: good morning. i was listening to trump talking to his supporters at one time. he was telling them that they didn't need to vote so don't worry about voting, they had enough votes. i was trying to get in with your last guest to ask -- if votes can be changed using artificial intelligence, that's what i wanted to know, thank you. host: michael in north carolina, republican. caller: good morning, this is michael. host: how are you doing? caller: i'm great. i was just thinking about one of your callers. i hadn't heard his voice lately but he's a character. i was disappointed about the new hampshire primary and i thought nikki, for some reason the polls switched the week previous to the vote and she had a pretty

commanding lead in new hampshire. something happened all of a sudden. i can't figure it out. i hadn't heard the media talk about why she had such a big lead. it was maybe a month ago or two or three weeks ago in the polls. host: delete over trump? caller: i thought she did. i saw a couple of polls on other media networks where she was ahead in the polls. host: are you supporting nikki haley? caller: yes, i am. host: tell me why. caller: caller: she will probably be on the ballot in north carolina, but i think by the time we get there, the race may be over. i like nikki haley because, one, she is a former governor, and she has a lot of government experience as far as leading people in government, and she is

a fresh face. she is fairly young. and i am 49 myself, and she is just a little bit older. so, i am very excited about nikki haley. host: is donald trump too old for you? is that the main reason? caller: absolutely not. i am a reaganite. i was in kindergarten when reagan was elected. i don't have a problem with age, i just have a problem with the way he is. i may have to vote joe biden, unfortunately. host: let's talk to tom in buffalo, new york, democrat. caller: good morning. back in 2016, when trump was first elected, david duke, the

former grand wizard of the ku klux klan campaigned for them, and when the media found out about that, they questioned trump about it, and he said he never met the man. well, donald, you know about the interview do did with the former grand wizard of the ku klux klan . donald trump's father was a member of the ku klux klan way back when. he got arrested at a rally, and another fact, donald trump and his father owned apartment buildings in brooklyn, new york, and were taking applications for people to rent the apartments. when white people came out to fill an application, he would put a -- when black people came

out to fill, he would put a "c" at the top of the paper that stood for colored. he was fined heavily for that, called discrimination. i have got one more for you. host: i just wanted to stop you there about what you said about fred trump being a member of the kkk. i just trying to find a fact check on that. it says fred trump was detained at a kkk rally, but there is no evidence he was a supporter, so it does not look like he was actually a member of the kkk. but go ahead, you said you had one more point. caller: yes, one more point, when there was the march, donald trump said there was good people on both sides. between the protesters there and the nazis, i wonder if donald

trump considered the nazis that ran a car into the group of protesters and killed that woman, i wonder if he considers them one of the good nazis. and if he does and gets reelected, i wonder if people pardon him. that is all i have to say. host: columbus, georgia, independent line. earnest, good morning. caller: i have two comments. this young person was on and made a comment that we should be able to do whatever we want to with her body, anything we want to do. that is to say you can do anything. just think, there are people now who abuse drugs, marijuana, alcohol, they are going to have an accident, kill somebody and the taxpayers have to take care of these instances were they abuse people. the thing i am trying to get to is, let's just say it is ok to shoot yourself. and then one more comment, first

of all, it is stupid to think you can do anything. the next thing is that trump, more people talk about trump, the more he comes. they want trump to go away because they keep him in the limelight. host: john, richmond kentucky, independent. caller: good morning. you know what? i want to build on what ernest said. i i'm sorry, but that was the most dumbest thing i have ever heard. i tell you what, drugs and alcohol can be abused, but there are people who actually caused the accidents themselves. they made a bad choice. my body, i choice, i support abortion. people have the right to do what they want, but also, the comment about killing yourself. that is a separate thing. that is the stupidest thing i ever done heard. host: what did you call to say

originally? caller: my original call was about donald trump and the nikki haley situation. it is the lesser of two evils essentially. trump i generally believe is a racist and a rapist to women and a terrible man, you know? nikki haley on the other side, she has no sense of values or morals. host: for language there, joe, bradford, connecticut, independent. caller: good morning. host: i will get it. caller: how are you today? i would like to talk about the hypocrisy of the people in this country. it is crazy the roe v. wade overturned because of the sanctity of life, yet, they refuse to take up the case with alabama man going through an experimental execution with nitrogen gas. they're not pro-life.

just say what it is, they are pro-antiabortion. if they were pro-life, they would be against the death penalty and protesting about that. how many people are actually out there who claim they are pro-life that are protesting against the death penalty? they are all for the death penalty. it is hypocrisy. and it is the hypocrisy of the holy rollers. think about it. what does god say about hypocrisy? thank you. host: christine in new york, republican, good morning. caller: good morning, how are you? host: good. caller: i wanted to call -- i have never done this before -- first time for everything. host: welcome. caller: i am a registered republican. i am calling about like everybody else has been saying, about immigration. it is a slap in the face to people who have come here --

sorry. host: christine, just talking to your phone. you have got to mute your tv. looks like we lost her. tempe, arizona, ari, good morning. caller: good morning. i would just like to say one thing. in my age bracket, which is, well, i am approaching 80 years old, but when everybody used to go out and party, they always had comments, but why or how can these kids for their own protection? it is a simple question.

i appreciate it. host: in sweeney, texas, republican, good morning. caller: good morning. my answer to some of the people who called in about immigration, you should be thanking our governor for stopping the immigrants from coming across. first of all, they are illegal, and there are laws which we should follow, and people are not doing it. look at new york city, how they are overrun, they are closing the schools, it is costing aliens of dollars we do not have. if you want to blame someone, lame president biden the first time he came into office, lets be fair about this. every state is now a border state. go to italy, france.

do you just walk in, live there, and they give you a mastercard? and the iphone and take you anywhere you want to go? go try it, see how that works out for you. host: in massachusetts, ronald, independent. good morning. caller: good morning. host: ronald, you have got to mute your tv. caller: i have guided turned off all the way. can you hear me? i would like to talk about dr. fauci and function research. recently, trump had said a victory speech where the democrats used covid to cheat and they talked about man-made pandemics. i think these men are being honest. i think that jim jordan and

others have exposed dr. fauci more than he has already exposed himself, and you know what happened to timothy mcveigh. there have been over one million covid deaths in the united states, 20 million around the world. it is crimes against humanity, international mass murder, and even if it is unintentional, which i believe it is deliberate, it is gross negligence. host: robert, fayetteville, north carolina. democrat. caller: good morning. host: good morning, robert. caller: i just had two comments i wanted to make. one was the immigration problem everybody is talking about. i think that we have got to look past our borders and look to places like honduras and venezuela to make sure their people stay where they are. with all the corruption that is going on right now, people are getting up and moving to safety. host: how do we do that start --

how do we do that? caller: we go back on the munro document, remember that? when they said the u.s. would be in charge of the western hemisphere one of our presidents. we have got to get these people together like in honduras. these are not mexicans. these are people that are passing through because of the drugs, the cartel, and the lack of work that we should try to make their country like ours to a certain degree, so they will stay home. host: all right, and in arlington, virginia, republican, good morning. caller: good morning. one thing i have noticed the past few years, we have seen a lot of extremes on both sides, people going way too far off the deep end, left and right. i think we have got to bring it back to the middle. i think having voted for donald

trump, i don't think i will be voting for him again. i think nikki haley is a great candidate. she is a little bit closer to the middle. i mean, even if you look at joe biden, he is a lot closer to the middle than some of the other democrats we have had in the past. i think everyone, left and right, needs to think about that, you know. everyone needs to be coming back towards the middle i maybe agree on something a little more than we have in the past. that is it for me. host: have you decided who you are going to vote for in november? caller: probably nikki haley. host: what if she is not on the ballot in november? caller: in that case, it will likely be donald trump. but it is not my first choice. host: ok. richmond, virginia, next. charles, hello. caller: good morning. as republicans and democrats, and i understand they are trying

to agree to reduce the number of migrants, i think it is me being from richmond, virginia, my mother is a black american, my father is an immigrant from japan. that helped me realize that i am sexually attracted to -- host: akron, ohio, democrat, good morning. caller: good morning, how are you doing? host: good. caller: i cannot say everything at once, but everyone who came across the statue of liberty came across to be free from wherever they came from, other than black men. we have no hard feelings towards anything that we have accomplished. however, they have something about other people coming into

our country, just say no. so using excuses like fentanyl and things like that is just to say everybody wants to use drugs -- [indiscernible] evermore, trump is telling you what is actually going to happen. america is strong and will carry on because of the fact that everyone in america has someone who died in the civil war to make this place what it is, so that is what makes us united, the fact that people that died and all races fought the war today, so we could always be together no matter what area so the story about the snake is an anecdote of sorts. we will accomplish the right

goals to god's will. you are all going to die one day, and lord knows you don't want to die on the conscious of what we are seeing today. host: that will be the last words for open forum. here is a headline from axios that just came out that says the u.s. economy booms was 3.3% growth in the final quarter of 2023. next on washington journal, let's talk about the new assessment by the bulletin of the atomic scientists retired major general robert latiff. we will be right back. ♪ >> since 1979, in partnership with the cable industry, c-span has provided complete coverage to the halls of congress, from

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addressed is the economy. we need to make sure that the american people can afford a good american dream life. additionally, we need to address the abortion laws. >> immigration is not my number one issue, with borders being open and my tax dollars paying to continue to feed people who just are not americans, they are not citizens. they come here illegally. it is crushing my pockets and other fellow americans. >> it is most important for me is the health care, how it can be free for everybody. >> c-span's voices 2024, be a part of the conversation. >> washington journal continues. host: welcome back. we are joined now by maj. gen. robert latiff, a board member on the bulletin of the atomic scientists, also retired from

the u.s. air force. welcome to the program. guest: thank you for having us. host: first, let's talk about the bulletin of atomic scientists, what is your role? guest: the bulletin is a group of people, the bulletin itself, obviously, is a document, but it was formed in 1947, not long after world war two and it was a bunch of nuclear scientists at the time who were very concerned about what was going to be happening with atomic weapons, and, so they began rioting -- writing and talking to politicians about the control of nuclear weapons, and it created a clock. we tried to impress people on

how close we were, getting, so the clock has stuck around since 1947. and to answer your question directly, it is a grouping, or at least it is a grouping of scientists and many disciplines who come together to assess the state of the world and try to make an assessment about what the dangers are. host: what is your role? guest: i, member of the science and security board. like any organization, it has several boards, but the science and security board is the board charged with the development of the “doomsday clock”. host: elect me show the headline here from your organization that says a moment of historic danger. it is still 90 seconds to midnight.

how do you get that? howdy decided is 90-seconds? 15 minutes? at what point do you get armageddon? guest: those are two separate questions, and how we decide -- probably over so many years, the clock has moved back and forth a number of times. what we do is we correct data, we talk with other people, we use our expertise and try to determine whether or not there is cause for a movement, any kind of movement. if things have gotten better, does it need to move backwards? if things have gotten worse, does it need to move forward? the amount, it is not an arbitrary number, but we decide

whether or not it is a small or large increase. so as you know in 2020, it was 100 seconds, last year, 90 seconds. but to your second question about how do we know whether it is midnight, that is also a really quick question. it does not have a firm answer. if we exchange nuclear weapons, perhaps that is midnight. if the world comes to an end, obviously, that is midnight. if climate change causes societal up people, maybe that is getting closer to midnight. so it is not a firm answer, but clearly we are talking about really, really serious situation where nuclear weapons are being used and so on. host: if you would like to join the conversation, ask a question

or make a comment, you can do so, our lines are democrat, (202)-748-8000. republicans, (202)-748-8001. independents, (202)-748-8002. i am going to put up on the screen, robert, kind of some of the things you guys look at. one is the many dimensions of nuclear threats, and an ominous climate change outlook evolving biological threats and the dangers of ai. i want the first one, what do you mean by the many dimensions of the nuclear threat? isn't there just the use of nuclear weapons? guest: that is true. obviously, that is what we want to try to avoid, but it has to do with numbers. it has to do with proliferation of nuclear technologies. it has to do with countries threatening to use them, like

russia, and intentionally north korea. it passed to do with the stability of leadership in many of those countries, at least as we assess it, so it is multidimensional. during the cold war, we had tens of thousands of nuclear weapons. it was an awful situation, but it seemed to be a little more stable than it seems now. so that is the multidimensional part of it. host: your statement says that china, russia, and the united states are all sending huge sums to expand or modernize their nuclear assets. tell us about that. why is the u.s. doing that? guest: in terms of russia, they are expanding, they are threatening use. china, as we know, has very

rapidly increased the numbers of their nuclear weapons and are building silos all over china. united states is modernizing its ground-based deterrent. there has been a lot of news recently about that system. and there is obviously a pretty substantial debate between members of different parties about the creation of new weapons. there are some in the u.s. who want to create a new warhead. and the numbers, there is a recommendation by many that we increase the members to try to keep up with the threat from china and russia. host: last year, putin withdrew from the ratification of the global treaty banning nuclear

tests. why is that significant? guest: well, for years now, i cannot remember when it was first signed, but we had had no testing, and to begin testing again implies that there is a desire to potentially -- there are many scientists who would like to test so they can make sure the ones we have are working, but it is just another indication of a move toward nuclear weapons. host: i want to read a portion of the “doomsday clock” statement on u.s. presidential leadership when it comes to the use of nuclear weapons and have you comment on it. esidential candidates with the abto sulder the eminence authoritlde a central concern of the u.s. election in the fall. this is especially true given

the concerns at the end of the prevus administration, which prompted then chairman of the joint chief of staff general mark milley take steps to ensure that he would be consulted in the event the former president sought to launch a weapon. why did you include that? guest: because there was a real concern, as you may remember, at that time, during the administration, there were a lot of nuclear threats passed back and forth, as you may remember, between north korea and the united states. there had been several occasions in which the former president had talked openly about potentially using nuclear weapons, and i must emphasize that general milley was not inserting himself into a process, that would have been illegal. all he was doing was asking commanders involved notify him.

so that perhaps he could serve in his legal role as an advisor. host: is that typical? guest: it varies from year to year. it has always been a concern among people who have known about nuclear control about that a president could theoretically and readily start a nuclear war because he has the sole authority. i might point out that in the early days of the atomic nuclear era, that discussion was had. there was a time when it was delegated to the commanders, there was a time when the president pulled back, and the discussion was going back and forth. it has been the way it is now for quite a number of decades. host: do you think that should change?

do you think it should still be the president has the sole authority and decision to launch a nuclear attack? guest: now, i will have to step out as my role as a member of bulletin of the atomic scientists. i can give you my personal opinion. i think that there should be acquired some additional consultation. now, what that means, it would be hard for me to say. whether it is a wonderfully stable or unstable president, making that decision alone is a little bit frightening. whether or not that president could do it and override the conversation, we would have to talk about how laws would be written, but i personally think there needs to be a little more consultation required. host: let's talk to viewers. we will start with eric in

charlottesville, virginia, democrat. eric? caller: hello? host: 30 ago. caller: how are you -- host: there you go. caller: how are you? i would be interested to see if your guest could comment on the statement -- correct me if i am wrong -- but on the defense secretary or the major part where have two or three years [indiscernible] thank you. guest: i take that with trying to predict the future, and you certainly do not want to do that. host: you will not look at the

possibility of russia and nato going to war? guest: clearly, there are deliberations. we consider all of those things. but it depends very largely on what happens in ukraine. so if that comes to a stalemate, probably not. if they succeed in ukraine, the likelihood, i think, goes up. i do not personally, again, not a bulletin position, but i don't personally think that would ever get is far enough to try to attack terrorist tomato. i don't think that would happen. host: let's talk to john in raleigh, north carolina, hi, independent. caller: hi. the president may only have 30

limits. -- 30 minutes. there cannot be a consultation. sometimes there is not enough time. and army on the brink of world war iii? hamas attacked israel. is that the beginning of world war iii? i mean, 30 minutes is all you have. how can you have time for further consultation? donald trump -- i think israel would vote with the donald trump presidency. not that it really matters because no matter who was president, they give undivided support to israel, obviously, for the answer to the question. guest: two your first question, yes, 30 minutes potentially even fewer than that in the instance of a summary launch, and, again, it would be kind of hard to put together the process as we are sitting here at the desk, but

just having him turn around to his vice president or the senior nuclear advisor, or their president pro tem of the senate, whoever it might be, that should not take more than a couple of minutes. one minute out of 30 is not going to make that much of a difference. in terms of are we on the brink of world war iii? i don't think so. it would be a different situation, i believe if iran had already had nuclear weapons and one of the countries in the middle east, you know, felt existentially threatened, but even then, i think it could be limited to nuclear exchange for

that part. again, these are all just theories. host: you mentioned iran. what about north korea that has tested ballistic missiles? the longer we wait, the closer we get to them having more advanced weaponry. and to be able to get it to at least the west coast of the united states. guest: right. the question is, the longer we wait, the way i see it, anyway, there is a great deal we can do about north korea we can do at this point because they have ballistic missile element program. they have several tons of nuclear weapons and there is some indication they may be close to testing another one. there is not a great deal, i think, that we or the western

powers can do to stop. we have tried over the years. it just kept going. the best we can hope for is some kind of a negotiated settlement. host: nancy in fulton, ohio, democrat. caller: great. hello, everybody. host: hello, nancy. caller: ok. i would like to know how much has the “doomsday clock” played a role in pop-culture? guest: well, that is a really interesting question. i cannot give you all the examples, but i know it appears in popular songs, it has appeared in popular songs. it has cameos in movies, and many politicians, although it is not pop-culture, many

politicians actually refer to the “doomsday clock” and if i'm not mistaken, i think vladimir putin refer to it in a recent discussion. did not like it. it is quite an iconic symbol. that is precisely what we want. we want it to be out there among lots of people, and informing people about what the situation is. host: richard, southeastern massachusetts, independent. good morning. caller: good morning, hi, bob. we miss you up here. guest: thank you. caller: now, i know -- i want your personal opinion, i am one of the soldiers that cleaned up, less than 400 of us are alive, and they promised us medical care, none. do you know anything about that?

guest: i do. i have read the history of the atomic program. host: are these testing sites? caller: absolutely, and the american people don't know anything about it. one of the biggest coverups. it is disgusting to me. there are less than 400 of us alive. this is the 10th time i have called c-span. why don't you look into the camera and tell the american people, first of all, look up the dome and look up project sunshine. they will tell you what these atomic scientists did. they dug up dead bodies to see how much radiation was in their bodies, ok? it is totally disgusting. the next time your son or daughter would like to join the military, make sure they give you health because they never gave it to ask, and this has been covered up, formerly known

as the atomic energy commission or the defense nuclear agency, we want compensation, and we are not going to stop until we are all dead. host: all right, richard. any comments on that as far as the fallout of all of the nuclear programs? guest: in the early days of the nuclear program, whether it was because of a mission imperative, i think they took a lot of chances. host: there is also the downwind issue of lots of populations, not just the people who worked on it. an reno, nevada, republican, good morning. caller: good morning, thank you for taking my call. general, sir, my concerns are about the use of possible dirty bomb. year and a half when the russians invaded ukraine, of course, and the nuclear

facilities were super vulnerable, i understand there was an inspection team in there, so, we hear a lot about strategic nuclear threat, but what are your thoughts and concerns? what can you share with us about their dirty bomb threat as you see it today? whatever you can share with us, thank you for taking my call, sir. guest: it is a good question, and i will point out that the former secretary of defense has written a good deal about the nuclear issues, and that is one of his primary concerns. most people to be have a realization that between all of the countries in the world who are working on nuclear weapons, there are literally hundreds of tons, hundreds of tons, of plutonium and uranium. somewhere along the line, it is not all that conceivable that we could have lost a few pounds of it.

so the idea of some of this stuff floating around and be made available to terrorists is not inconceivable. probably if we have a nuclear threat, it will be something of that nature rather than an explosion. host: you also look at the effects on climate change. last year was the hottest on record, going all the way back to 1850, the oceans are warming, as well. what are the trendlines there. guest: the trendlines are not good. from my understanding of discussions, it is continuing to get bad. it is getting bad slower, if that makes any sense? but the numbers are still going up, temperatures are going up,

and the ocean it is going up. the involvement of many countries around the world seems to be increasing so the trendline is not good. host: good morning. caller: i would like to direct your question of what is the government giving about emp attacks? guest: first of all, i cannot tell you since i am not part of the government. i imagine if i were, i probably still could not say much. but, critical facilities that would be affected by an emp attack are protected in technical ways that we cannot

get into here, but an emp attack would probably come in the form of a nuclear explosion. obviously, where that to happen, probably a nuclear explosion would be as much of a problem is emp. host: in randolph, massachusetts, democrat, good morning. caller: yes. i was wondering if you could tell me if plutonium and uranium are earth based products or are they manufactured? guest: are they earth based? uranium is mined from uranium ore, and then it is purified from its natural state into what we call weapons grade, you 238

or you 235 -- u2 38 or u2 35. plutonium is an element, but it is created as a nuclear activity before a. -- before a nuclear reactor. host: were you curious or were you getting at something? caller: i was curious. what countries possess uranium, and are they stable countries? guest: that is a good question. i would have to search through the atlas to find out, but, certainly, there is a lot of uranium ore may be africa, probably i think there may be some in the united states and canada. but, again, you can go to annapolis and probably find out

where -- to annapolis and probably find -- atlas and find out where you could get uranium ore. the problem is it takes a lot of acknowledging to purify it so it can be used. host: we talked about artificial intelligence our last statement. your report says that "the dramatic advance of generative ai which would magnify the information and correct the environment, making it harder to solve the larger." existential challenges what do you mean? guest: well, the bulletin has been talking about ai for several years. our concern is most about the impact of ai on social media, social media can influence people, influence leaders to make decisions. the involvement of ai and the creation of fakes, and although

they have gotten very, very good, you can imagine the situation in order to do something that was faked. so, it makes those problems more difficult. ai is a good thing. it can be used wonderfully biology, for instance. also, as we have seen recently, there was some reporting that ai was able to create a virus that nobody had actually ever thought about before. so these are really dangerous technologies, as well as being good technologies. and my final concern has to do with the implementation of ai in military command and control systems. host: these are legal autonomous weapon systems? guest: well, there is the weapon, but there is also the decision-making. decision-making in the military, there is lots and lots of

computer systems that provide information, and the use of ai is really good, but it could also turn bad. so a big concern has to do with not being impressive enough and not putting guard rails along ai. there was a lot of discussion around it, these are happening but they are happening faster. host: judy in valencia, california. republican. good morning. caller: yes. mostly i wanted to say thank you for your service, sir. my husband passed away with vietnam in 2017, so i am very aware of all these wars happening, and don't you think -- you know, this would be beyond me what you are talking about today, and thank god we

have people like the scientists and the military and the pentagon to help us with it because the normal people do not know what they are dealing with, and i lived during the bay of pigs. i have got children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren. you know, what i worry about the most is used to be a lot of the countries where painful, but now it is taking up saying that we have more and more tyrannical leaders, people who don't make sense. and china flying balloons across the sky to take all the

information away from us and use it against us. is that a concern of yours? host: ok, judy. we will get an answer. guest: all of those are concerns, and thank you for your comments and your husband service, as well. that is what we are trying to do with the bulletin and are “doomsday clock”, just raise the awareness, like you are talking about of all of the growing number of countries in the world who are antagonistic and getting new weapons and trying to slow it down. i appreciate your comments, thank you. host: we have a question on text from mike in rockford, illinois, asking about supersonic weapons. i guess i would also add to that hypersonic weapons which are over five times the speed of sound. guest: i was going to say did he

really mean hypersonic because most of the weapons and missiles we have now are supersonic. hypersonic weapons, there are two different types of hypersonic weapons. one is launched from an airplane going through the atmosphere. another is launched on top of a missal, and the problem with the second is that once it is launched on top of a missal, it is unclear to people who see that missile launch whether or not that is a hypersonic or nuclear weapon on top. in that sense, hypersonic weapons are very destabilizing. they are also destabilizing in that it has been said that they can defend themselves because these hypersonic weapons when you were in their final stages, so this point to hypersonic

weapons, like any other arms race, is destabilizing and also needs to come under some controls. host: leonard in maine, independent. good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to ask the major general, doesn't the u.s. foreign policy encourage the exploration of nuclear weapons? i used the example of taliban or saddam hussein, if either of those governments had nuclear weapons, would we have invaded and occupied this countries for all of those years? my second question and comment, why does israel escape with nuclear weapons because they have been a nuclear entity in the middle east for decades, yet, all of our focus is on iran and not having nuclear weapons, but what israel is doing to the palestinians in gaza and are far more anxious about them being a nuclear power, and then they end

up with iran's intentions. thank you. guest: it would be hard for me to comment on american foreign policy. i think it is fair to say that, you know, our policies are trying to prevent proliferation. we have them, we could disarm, but, frankly, we are going to have them and all of our countries are going to have them. so, i would say that our policy is more trying to stop proliferation of weapons. in terms of israel and iran, again, i really cannot comment on israel really. it is repeated that they had nuclear weapons, and they probably do have nuclear weapons, but --

host: well, y■éou know, mike in new jersey says thiso us about that, he ss israel, in dia, pakistan and soon iran, is this raise the prospect of doomsday? guest: two answers to that question. any proliferation of nuclear arms raises the prospect of doomsday. the fact that there are religious states, i think i would stay away from that, and focus on the stability of the leadership in those states. it is the unstable leadership that concerns us, and if that is somehow connected to religion, fair enough, but it is really more the presence of the weapons and the stability of the leadership. host: let's talk to william and roslyn heights, new york, democrat. caller: the last few callers

change the direction of where i went to go with this question completely. but it is very interesting, my first thought of question was could you list the countries that you would say are the shortest on the clock right now? and in light of the last few questions, can the leadership stability issues, leadership stability can be looked at a couple of different ways because we have, you know, these free and fair elections, i think our leaders are less stable than the dictatorships out there, and i am a democrat. you think dictatorships can rule with dictatorial behaviors and command. israel, to me, seems like the most peaceloving country on the planet and has the most ethical moral party in the world and has never launched an attack on anyone. they have only defended

themselves. i will leave you with that. guest: to your first question, we do not look at it by country. far be it for me to try to assess individual countries and how much they contribute to the clock. we look at it as an overall issue. as far as democratic versus tutorial leaders, the only thing i would say about that is that for the democratic leaders, we can change. we have the ability to change our leadership from year to year, and in those other places, they don't. so if we don't like what one leader is doing, we can change that. that is one of the things we try to do with the bulletin, try to get people to vote, to vote for their own safety. host: let's talk to edward, new jersey, republican. your next. -- you are next. caller: good morning. i take issue with your comments on the commons that general

milley had supposedly said. i do not know your politics, but i would -- but you would be willing to give aid to the enemy. your view on millie's comments is that mischaracterization of his remarks concerning preemptive strike our information which is of a nuclear content to the chinese homeland. host: wait, what are you saying, edward? that general milley did what? caller: i am saying that what general milley had said, i consider treasonous. why doesn't he? guest: well, i don't consider it treasonous. it was one military leader talking to another military leader, and just showing them that everything was ok.

but to your point, i was talking earlier about a different situation regarding general milley, and that was when he asked the commanders, the nuclear commanders just to keep him informed. so, we can certainly agree to disagree on whether or not his actions obesity china were treasonous. i don't think so. host: we will talk to aaron next, alabama, independent. caller: my comment is regarding deepfakes that you will talked about earlier. i think the nuclear driven emp is actually the deepfake, and the real mp are the towers in our backyard. by the ftc, they are untested, they are 60 and 70 technology, and all that went up during the pandemic, and prior to that, you had propaganda, and then you had

them coming for our food supply. that is how sieges happen, general. host: a lot there. we were talking about misinformation, but he did mention genetic engineering of foods and you used it to say in your report that you are warning of the increase of genetic engineering technology. what does that mean? guest: what i was referring to was what i mentioned in my remarks, and that is the creation of viruses. potentially resistant viruses. genetic engineering, there are a lot of aspects to genetic engineering. many of them are good, crisper. i cannot exactly remember what it stands for, but it is won a nobel prize, and it is a way where we can modify chains and viruses, and it is wonderful, but it could potentially be a bad thing. host: dave, new jersey,

democrat. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i just wanted to ask the major general how closely he works with the president. host: he is no longer on active duty. he is retired, dave. caller: ok, thank you. host: that was an easy call. michael, hudson, new hampshire, republican. good morning. caller: good morning. my question is, do think there is any hope for a renewed program like the megatons to megawatts where we can convert portions of weapons and where we have green fuel. you see that as a possibility in the future? guest: good question. again, i don't know an awful lot about the fuel cycle. i think that actually has been done. when we dramatically reduced the number of nuclear weapons back in the 1990's, i think a lot of

that weapons grade uranium and plutonium were down blended to be used for other purposes. as far as the other uses of nuclear explosions, i cannot think of any. early in the nuclear era, they thought they might use nuclear explosions for construction. that did not that didn't happen. host: larry, democrat, you're next. caller: good morning. i'm going to ask a question. i want to make a statement on the president. the president speaks with a soft voice, but he walks with a super stick and the reason i say that is because all of the terrible over the world right now is bad. the united love and help people all over the world. what he does is, he talks to

people in a good way buthen it comes to war and things we have to do, he has dropped that stick. in israel, what is going on in israel is not the president's fault. he is not the one in the war. he is trying to give peace over there, like the united states stands for. i'm going to ask a general question. explain to them why ukraine is so important, because doomsday is the nuclear bombs that russia would use on the other states if he destroys ukraine. thank you. guest: guess i'm not sure what the question was. host: why is ukraine important? larry believes it is because russia would use nuclear weapons if they are successful in ukraine.

guest: primarily, ukraine is important because it ally is the only thing standing between russia and nato. apropos of the earlier discussion we had, there is a concn, whether it is valid, there is a concern that should ukraine fall, it will be the end . whether he uses a nuclear weapon or n, i think we won't know til he does. host: one fewer on x asks, if you could target one thing for improvement or completion, what would that be? what do you believe americans ould be most concerned about? guest: i, going back to my own

technolocal background, i think we reall need to control better, the implementation of artificial intelligence. i'm not concerned about super intelligence or anything like th. obviousl i would like to prioritize arms control. we are going through a period in which arms control is suffering. we have left treaties. the russians have left treaties. we are going to be left with a wild wild wt when it comes to nuclear weapons. i might prioritize arms control over ai. host: david is next from richmond, democrat. caller: i am a marine veteran. i am curious with the number of

conflict going on right now, obviously russia and ukraine, israel and gaza, and the potential conflict between china and taiwan and north korea ramping up their rhetoric. i'curious what you think is the likelihood of a wider war erupting and what woulhave to occur for america's involvement? host: if you could be brief. guest: the likelihood, i think that is what our doomsday clock is all about. the likelihood is higher now than it's been in a while. what i think the actions should be? arms control. host: retired major general, of the atomic scientists science and security board. thk you for joining us. we will take you live now -- that is alth