>> thanks. ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon and welcome to this marvelous forum. i'm grateful to be back, even though i could not be at the center today, technology still makes it possible to join you. not only is she known for her important writings on iran, but she holds a very special place in the hearts of all of us here at the wilson center. she is the founding director of our middle east program and she led that team from 1998 through 2015. this series honors her commitment to promoting women's empowerment and women's rights

globally, but particularly in this region. madeleine albright inaugurated the series in 2017. since then, it has featured senator chris van hollen, the under secretary general and executive secretary of the u.n. and social commission for the western hemisphere, and the executive director of the georgia institute for women's peace and security here in washington dc. the wilson center is a unique institution in foreign policy. it was congressionally chartered, scholarship driven and we are fiercely nonpartisan and independent. that has obligations to not duplicate what others are doing but instead to prioritize the most important issues and opportunities and to try to do so in ways where we can add value and make a difference. this year's topic, efficacy for

afghan women's rights on the global stage, is critical to our work here in the center and to the policy community at large, that is very much something among the most important priorities we have. women represent a powerful locus of change, whether at the helm in government, civil society or private sector, women play a critical role in preventing conflict and sustaining prosperity. the situation of gender discrimination in afghanistan is abysmal and it is worsening by the day. the taliban further restricts women's ability to work, travel, access basic health care services. moreover the millions of afghans are facing food and water insecurity and the risk of disease. with women and girls bearing the brunt of these effects. what can be done to alleviate this plight? how can the international community uphold women's rights?

to discuss these questions and more i am delighted to introduce our speaker and a longtime friend. she is currently a senior fellow at harvard university and former under secretary of state for global affairs during the bush administration. she is the founding chair of the u.s. afghan women's council, an organization aiming to reach out to afghan women and provide an opportunity for them to advance their priorities, including education, health, economic empowerment, and rule of law. during her time in government she supported the creation of the american university of afghanistan, which gave countless girls and women the chance to receive an education at the high school and university level. the ambassador increased afghan women and civil society, the public sector and in business. in short, she helped to provide hope to afghan women. thank you for your leadership on

these critical efforts. it is great to see you even if it is through a zoom screen. i turned the floor over to marissa mother director of our middle east program. over to you. marissa: thank you, ambassador green. >> thank you very much, ambassador green. thank you also for all the support you lend to the middle east program and women's initiative. ambassador, welcome once again and i would like to also welcome our online audience and remind them before we kick off this conversation you also have the opportunity to leave comments or questions we will be collecting for the q&a session. let's start our conversation. this is a critical topic. it is no longer in the headlines. there is a lot going on around the world, particularly in the middle east and north africa region.

we wanted to shed light on what's happening in afghanistan. since the taliban's takeover almost two and half years ago now we have seen the rights of afghan girls and women regress. so many restrictions and limitations on their movement and presence in the public sphere. you have done so much work to ensure they have equal access to education. where are we today? how does this bode for the future of the country? amb. dobriansky: first, i want to thank ambassador green, mark green. i want to thank you and the wilson center for inviting me. when i received your invitation and they said it is the forum, i said when can i be signed up? it is a privilege and an honor to be part of this forum.

if i may, pay tribute to you. you are someone who has stood so staunchly for the rights of all, but not only for the all but women also in particular. iranian women, afghan women, others repressed across the globe. may i take a moment and i would like to first applaud you. [applause] just thank you. ambassador green mentioned in his opening, hope. hope. those role models who have paid the way and had courage in standing up to tear any -- to r yranny and repression. it is important and you are certainly one of those individuals. thank you for all you have done. to answer your question, tragically the situation is very bad. there have been very draconian

measures, abusive measures taken against afghan women. instead of witnessing any kind of improvement, it is the opposite. to say a few words about what's going on in the recent reports. in terms of education and thinking about where afghan women were before in terms of the level well beyond the one through k and high school, then university. now, girls can only attend school up to age 12. all are repressed. education is severely cut and denied. very significantly, there are reports of arbitrary detention and arrests. a lot of them are founded on the so-called hijab, whether it is appropriate or not appropriately on an individual.

that is what i use the word arbitrary arrests and detention. there have been many young women, and even at age 16 who have been pulled aside and beaten and detained and threatened because of so-called not wearing their hijab properly. thirdly, it is very striking in terms of health care. if you are married and you have a male accompany you, you might well make it to a health care facility. but on the other hand, if you are unmarried, and there are a number of reports that you are very much subjected to arbitrary detention and great brutality. you may never make it actually to a health care facility. in that sector as well we have witnessed what has been cast as mental health issues.

this brings up also about women, women in the workforce. those that have to really be confined at home and cannot get out into the outside at all. there have been very substantial numbers of cases of mental health issues because of being unfairly confined and not having any exposure to the outside world and life. in that sense that is very, very serious and quite detrimental. by the way, think about it. it is very detrimental to the future of afghanistan, because for a workforce you cannot have only men. there was i believe years ago a arab-u.n. report that talked about the middle east and any country that deprives half of its citizenry from being integrated in the workforce would not survive, that their

economy would not be able to flourish. we have witnessed the egregious impact here not only on women in afghanistan but also the economy. it is gender apartheid. that it is being cast as. let me also in this regard mention a report issued, did talk about the unmarried women, did talk about the cases of mental health cases, and did talk about the kind of draconian repressive measures that have been widespread and impacting any kind of substantial growth before in terms of educational and the educational ranks. so what does this forbode for the future of afghanistan? i would say even right now, not very good. in terms of the well-being of citizens at large. in terms of a desire to be part

of an economy. and by the way, i should mention when they were reporting on any sectors where women surfaced, the one sector is a little bit in the economy, but it is qualified. women can actually be engaged in small businesses but from their homes in terms of embroidery, in terms of any kind of contribution that may be a small self generated business like sewing, embroidery, things like that. it might be contributing a bit to the economy. as far as ngo involvement, the record shows no. there is repression and actual, no, you cannot be engaged. in terms of humanitarian efforts, yes to some extent. a little bit where women are also working in health care facilities. yet the irony that others cannot even make it to health care

facilities and have access. what does it forbode? as i said, it is not good. it is not good for the health of the society. it is not good for economic growth. by the way, in terms of what the taliban itself said and professed at the very outset, it really flies totally against some of the statements they made about trying to be more open, more integrative. we have not witnessed that at all. it's been the opposite. not good. merissa: this has been already defined as gender apartheid. it is one of our afghan fellows wrote a piece about that. i think he is with us here today. we are talking more about the steward at the helm at various levels of government and at the

u.s.-afghan women's council to ensure women are not only protected but also have equal access to education, the workforce. we see a lot of role models. a lot of them of course had to be evacuated. there has been so much progress before the withdrawal of u.s. troops. how can the united states and other allies who invested so much in these efforts ensure the programs continue with all these restrictions in place? amb. dobriansky: this is an important question and i relish you asking me that question. you have to give me a moment. my answer will be longer on this one. i really want to give a full and robust answer. it is a key one. first a word about the u.s.-afghan women's council. it was born at the outset of thinking about the seizure of mazar-e-sharif and when there

was an attempt to help afghanistan. we all witnessed seeing on tv women in burqas. let the record was during the previous period of the taliban. then, if you will, a liberation. the opportunity for growth in afghanistan. from that standpoint the u.s.-afghan women's council was born at that time. you mentioned it but i want to underscore it. afghan women were very decisive. they said we know what we want. we what education. number one is the issue. work with us on growing that and access to education for young boys but especially for young girls and at all levels, not just a younger level. secondly, the issue of health care. the maternal mortality rate was so high. here there was tremendous progress in that area. third was entrepreneurship.

i remember my first visit afghanistan. we only met a few women who actually were in mazar-e-sharif. they were starting this micro lending. the second visit i made there, we met with over 100 women at our embassy who came in. they had all kinds of businesses. it showed if given the opportunity woman will seize it and they will go for it, and they did indeed. there was the issue of -- i will put it in civil society but it is governance, rule of law. i was shown a picture of women judges. there were many women who were women judges before. women wanted to be back into law. they wanted to be in the parliament. they wanted to have a stake in the future and decision-making of afghanistan. later also came a collaboration on youth.

the u.s.-afghan counsel was very focused on that. it has been very engaged. i want to say why an organization like that matters. it matters because it brings together a lot of organizations, both throughout the united states, abroad, and even some that are still working internally in afghanistan as best they can. i do want to recognize debbie holland. if you will just raise your hand. she's the executive director of u.s.-afghan women's council at georgetown university. our honorary chairs are former first lady laura bush and hillary clinton. we have the president of georgetown university jack dejoya. we have also a type of arm to arm with jack. we also have in the state department, which is important, the international women's

office. gita row gupta, who is also a cho-chair -- a co-chair. all-important. that actually keeps it very focused on programs. what are we doing? how can we move things forward? it is not only at home but also abroad. second, there are some official positions that i think are absolutely key here. one is in the state department. in addition to the ambassador and head of the international women's office there is a special representative dealing with afghanistan completely. many of you know her. she was in doha with us. very important position. she is not only working with afghans, she is working with americans and others. she is also in the middle east. also pounding the pavement. she was at the doha forum trying to bring this issue forward.

i want to recognize and mention the u.n. the u.n. secretary general also appointed a woman who i knew years ago who was foreign minister of uzbekistan. she's the representative. she just spoke in a very targeted way about the stigma of mental health and how we should be tackling it. why are these people important? because they tried to do their best in keeping the issue in the spotlight. as you pointed out, it is hard. this is why i asked for the extra time. i brought a list. you can't imagine how many are still working in afghanistan. i want to share this. i mentioned there are u.s.-afghan women councilmembers. one woman, she runs a made by afghan women. very inspirational. it is hard but they work within the confines.

kandahar treasure. also embroidery. one doctor is someone who many women no. she is there. she runs the hospital that, by the way, does have approval and it is run by women. it is very helpful. she has a fund, the the afghan institute of learning. enlighten a mind. all of these deal with education, health. the eagle online academy. i wanted you to hear this. there is a lot of activity going on. it does not always get the credit it should, and they are working up against great barriers. uplift afghan fund. i know here in d.c. many of us know it. they focus on youth in particular. the next generation. turquoise mountain has been there. i had the privilege of going when i went to afghanistan years ago and watching the handicraft,

bringing back the beauty of afghan culture. it was amazing to us. leslie schweitzer, who runs the friends of the american university in afghanistan. she pounds the pavement and does go to afghanistan. dealing with doha because the university had to transfer to doha, qatar. she pounds the pavement and keeps it in front. relief international. all these are inside afghanistan. three i want to mention, and i will stop, the working in the u.s. i want to mission the bush center. george w. bush and also mrs. bush in dallas, texas. they have a focused very heavily on this issue. all of this is especially for you. you know what they have established? they have established in afghan-iranian women's coalition. they are going to try to connect in country and out of country both.

why is it important? they feel both movements should unite. the diasporas in both cases and those inside should unite and be very strong in putting forward ideas, recommendations, and really getting notoriety for what they are trying to achieve for women. they will be having a big launch here in washington in may on the issue. i'm very excited about that initiative. i also might mention the u.s.-afghan women's council also has almost a launch on these university educational network of afghan women. the networks and online can be helpful. there is the georgetown institute for women's peace and security. they are doing phenomenal work. the women for afghan women. i'm scratching the surface.

i don't know if i hit every one. i did want to indicate there is a lot going on. everyone needs to continue the work in government, out of government, and thirdly, it's absolutely essential to get the media. it is true. it has been on the back burner. it has not been front and center. it deserves to be front and center. there are so many stories of courage. many stories about what -- by the way, individuals in the united states who have no connection whatsoever to afghanistan came and got involved in forging businesses years ago and have stuck with it. those are stories i know people will be heartened by. that gives hope. that gives incentive. that gives a kind of camaraderie of spirit that i think will last

and last and overtake the current crisis and tragedy that has befallen afghanistan. merissa: thank you for shedding light on these efforts that are still ongoing. continuity and sustainability is key to that. i know the afghan girls and women are grateful for what the united states does and a lot of these organizations do and other countries in the west. there is muslim majority countries that should play an important role. countries like saudi arabia, qatar, united arab emirates and others have made significant progress in their own countries when it comes to not only education and maternal health but even the workforce. in saudi arabia, just in the last two years they managed to increase female labor participation to over 30%, which is very impressive because it is

a very quick leap. what role can these muslim majority countries play to basically influence or dialogue with the taliban to ensure women are not only protected but have access to equal rights? amb. dobriansky: great question. one more footnote on the issue about all of these groups. you know what's important here? i will say it is that the women in afghanistan, those who were motivated. the connectivity is absolutely essential, because they are inspired and they feel we are not forgotten. even with small projects. whether it is the embroidery. whether it is with rugs.

there are women -- there is this rug initiative. started by a member of the u.s. women's afghan counsel. i want to underscore that. i know if i can give one example, i worked a great deal when we had the soviet union. i am will never forget when nathan sharanski came to the united states during the reagan administration. do you know the first thing he said to president reagan when he was released? he said, i was in the gulags for so long that i got no information, i heard nothing, but sometimes people would slip to me your speeches, or you would say something about me and about our movement. that gave me the motivation that i must continue, i must overcome the current hardships. in that sense i know afghan women are very strong, very resilient. i wanted to say that all of them

who are working, whether in afghanistan or outside, that lifeline is so key. also, the work our governmental officials are doing, the ones i mentioned. middle east. very important question. the answer is an absolute resounding yes. yes. they have a pivotal role. let me start with this and i'm going to underscore what you said and bring it back to halla. we had at the state department during my time a meeting of women from the middle east and a discussion and the majority there were muslim women. these were women. some were representatives of the governments. the discussion was on the issue about human rights worldwide. you know what?

there was an issue about, aren't there projects that could be done that really have impacts and those in the middle east can make a difference? the wilson center was really ahead of the curve. halla wrote a monograph on sharia law. it has various chapters looking at countries, not just in the middle east but worldwide. isn't it remarkable you can have sharia law and at the same time be a democracy? you don't have to be repressive. you don't have to suppress culture. all of that is just wrong. out right wrong. when we had our u.s. women's afghan council meeting, we thought it was important to have two women. i was co-chair and we had the head of the women's ministry at the time. we also had a male, the foreign minister. true story. we were at this meeting.

when he was asked the question, what are the projects you think are important? he said this monogram. why is it not translated? we worked to do that. that is an example where countries on the outside who have such knowledge in particular. i think of americans, you have that insight. you have that connectivity. that monograph brought in authentic voices from the various muslim based countries. the answer is yes. officially yes, 100%. thirdly, i think of the friends of the american university of afghanistan. qatar has brought in that university. we had the privilege of going to meet with them, which is very heart rendering, and hearing not

only young women but young men who have professional aspirations and want to advance themselves. i think that's an important step on the part of qatar in bringing in these refugees, housing them, giving them that type of opportunity. i would like to see other countries also do the same throughout the middle east. i would also welcome, like you said, those that can in fact also bring these issues to the forefront. their their connectivity with the women of afghanistan would be crucial but the state department tried to hold some form bringing them together. i like that through the bush center they are bringing together afghan irani and women in this case through the diaspora, and also for those inside. so, yes, there are so many ways of doing it.

i want to commend to commend you and the middle east program here, the fact that you are holding this today, the fact that this has been a spotlight for you. it is integrated into your work. i think you have also in your own context have pushed this agenda with middle eastern countries. their voice can carry volumes and is really crucial at this particular time. merissa: thank you for that. you mentioned the new group joining afghan and iranian women. this remind me of when the iranian protests were taking place after the death of mahsa amini. i was amazed that even at a time when the taliban had started to increase their detentions and repressive measures, university women stood up and protested in support of their iranian

colleagues, sisters, friends. that, to me, was fascinating to see. they are still willing to risk everything, knowing how high the stakes are. amb. dobriansky: also in discussions, official discussions, i think it has also been very important, this issue has been integrated in terms of u.s. official discussions, whether with our interlocutors about the middle east, with our representatives, thinking about tom west, his "outreach" to taliban. it is always front and center. the tragedy there, the movement on that front has only been so much, but the answer is, should that be stopped? no. you have to be persistent, it has to be sustained. but it is also these kinds of

actions that matter, and that is why wanted to take a moment and acknowledge the scope and scale, despite the repression, i am not saying they are moving mountains, but the fact they are there trying to do their best, to have a presence, and to do what they can to still engage, engage afghan women and push the dial forward. merissa: it's very important. speaking of the taliban, there are of course various opinions on the international arena, whether the taliban should be reengaged, relations should be normalized as a way to basically talk to the more moderate factions, individuals and influence some of their policies which so far have seem to just

target girls and women. where do you stand on this? i know where you stand on this but tell all of us where you stand on this, and why. amb. dobriansky: i would be delighted. i stand very firmly against it. and i will tell you why i stand against it. then i want to say a few more details about it and the debate on both sides. the reason why i personally stand against it is because i don't genuinely believe that by actually normalization of the relationship that we will get results. already i know that u.s. officials have worked rather hard actually to engage and to actually try and move and promote this along. there has been no traction, number one. secondly, there are those that give the argument, if you do this, you get legitimization. i am going to say, fair enough.

i think that is a point to be made. but to me, what is more important, if you actually think there will be tangible, concrete actions, and i really don't see it, and i think there have been some really strong efforts of testing the waters, trying to see if that could be pushed forward. i am not the kind, especially when you diplomatically do this in subtle ways, even in discussion. if we do this, what can we expect? we have seen actually, thinking about the promises that were made by the taliban, and not only have they not been lived up to but it is the opposite, actual regression. i don't see that as the solution here, quite frankly. let me give the other side. there have been those that have argued very forcefully for this. by the way, i mentioned rosa.

i happened to notice that when she was asked this question, the u.n. secretary general's rep said i'm not worried about legitimization. i think we should do this because i think we should make it part of our discourse. it already is a part of the discourse. it is, it definitely is. in every "official" engagement, and not just with us but multilaterally, in so many different arenas, if you will. i don't see that that is the solution. the solution, quite frankly, is for a change there. we have seen when there is a change, what are the opportunities that can befall. let me give one last. the first minister of women's affairs, she also was for 17 years handling the human rights issues for afghanistan, looking at it internally and reporting on afghanistan human rights.

during the 17 years of looking from karzai forward. she wrote a book recently called "outspoken." she has been asked the question outright. she did not hesitate for one minute. she said the answer is no. she said, i am very pragmatic. if i thought we could actually do something here, of course, i would look at any opportunity, any way. but the answer is no. there is nothing that this kind of normalization will produce if normalization of women's lives there. >> the government has been asked by the u.s. government to be the interlock. we have seen those efforts going nowhere. they ended up as you mentioned

doing what they wanted to do. it seems that is the number one issue on their agenda. what is the future of the university? we have a number of students from qatar. we have some that are unable to go. what is the future for this university and how can we also

help keep that coke -- -- hope alive. >> one afghan young lady was asked the question, why are you going to the university of afghanistan, the american university of afghanistan when you can go to the madrosa down the street which is free? but the american university is not free. she said the fundamental fact is, it is not free in terms of what it teaches. in terms of what i want to do and my freedom of my own mind, my own thought. i want to go to the american university of afghanistan and do what i want to do. many of them had to pay.

firs, t -- first, thanks go to qatar for bringing them in. it is thriving. those that were able to get out there, they have opportunities. there is also what is known in doha as education city where there are a number of universities, georgetown has one, texas a&m, are like five or six. -- there are like five or six. those also provide opportunities for them to also matriculate into and connect with. but what's the future here? it is everything i said on the focus of education. the fact that it is a priority issue. it was always for afghan women and still is. in this case like this

university educational network, the only networks that the afghan women's council have set up, that is very key. i think also by the way what the doctor does, it is targeted, but it gives opportunities online. there are those that are also in the region that left afghanistan but are in india, some in pakistan, there are some programs that also try to continue that award -- that forward. it's hard. but as you can see, there are ways of still connecting and ensuring that education is front and center and there are some programmatic opportunities. is that ideal? and by the way, what happened to the university of afghanistan? it's occupied by the taliban.

it's is not the vibrant university it once was. i remember meeting the first female president of the student body there. you don't have any of that. you have to work other ways of connecting and giving them opportunities. the american university is one means but not the only. >> if you remember in our meeting with the students back in december, one of the female students said that she is taking her key learnings from some of the courses she's taking and she is -- she has started her own whatsapp group and she is transferring knowledge to others who did not have an opportunity to leave afghanistan. these are very small efforts put are bigger than what they look like because of the impact. >> it's the multiplier effect

that you just identified that's also crucial here. absolutely. it is like the trainer of the trainer. it is so essential, so crucial, that's what going back to the network being established, that is a key one as well in this. women feel a part of, integrated, they see others and that grows and grows. but this is a number one priority 100% for afghan women. >> thank you, ambassador. i'm going to switch gears a little bit from afghanistan. this is a question that i have to ask on behalf of all women in foreign policy and insecurity. you are said to be one of the most distinguished career women in the sector and there are many other young women who are also aspiring to be in leadership

positions in diplomacy and foreign policy. what can you tell us about your journey? what advice can you give the younger women about the importance of having women leaders, particularly in diplomacy? >> thank you, that's a wonderful question. i would say that there were several principles that have guided me in terms of my own career. the first is get involved in what you enjoy and if you are passionate about. i did my undergraduate work at georgetown and i initially wanted to be in premed. my sister and my father, my father and mother were educators, they actually said, no, why don't you try the school of foreign service at georgetown? i sent, i don't think so -- >> i said, i don't think so. but they said, go for it. i got in debt and i realized it

was my passion and i felt very drawn to that, having that kind of connectivity with other societies and cultures and histories, so i never looked back. that is my first. my second is, don't be deterred by any barriers or obstacles. all of us have come up against barriers. i would say my own mother who i see over there, she got to know my mother, my mother, she met her in her 90's, my mother would be in her 90's she was very feisty,. she had a rule of thumb, and that was, if something turns you down, think of another way in and drive forward. sometimes it works, sometimes it didn't work. but i like that inspiration. don't just get knocked down and withdraw. be resilient. in that sense, that was a rule

of thumb for me. and it really inspired me in my own career. the irony is a number of my mentors where males who moved me along in my career. madeleine albright was also someone who had an impact in different ways in my life and i had a commonality of interest because i'm of ukrainian descent and she is czech background. i worked at the white house at the national security council. i was brought in at age 24. actually for young men or women, i was on the full staff. the issue was age. trying to say that i have this experience, i can bring this to the forefront.

i was very lucky indeed. i was there during the reagan administration. the national security advisers were ones who believed strongly that you can't have only those that were well experienced but new thinking integrated in. i love that about them. all of -- all of the ones who work there during that time i was there, seven years. so all national security advisor's had that rule of thumb. i would say those were some of the factors. be passionate. if you are passionate about what you do and enjoy it, that's going to further you. don't be deterred by hard knocks. maybe i should mention -- and don't be discriminated or feel discriminated by age. but lastly i would say, it's important for you to know your brief. in that sense, it is not just, forgive me for advancing

because maybe you are a female, but really, know your brief. really embrace it and show that you have it and you know it. those are some of the things that i'm going to say have moved me along. may i mention a madeleine albright story? >> yes. >> i remember very often she a very funny story. this is also advice to younger women. she said, sometimes, i'm in a meeting alone, and you have all these men, maybe it is me and one other woman, she said, you know what happens? i will give an idea and nobody says anything and then there is another guy saying the exact same thing i just said, and she said, boy did that bothered me -- bother me. another guy goes, joe is exactly right. like i never even said it. but she said, you know what saddened me?

my female colleagues and not joint in. she said, come on, women, you have to support one another. it's interesting she said that and really stood up in whatever setting it is, it is important to actually speak up and also hope that there is this kind of network and camaraderie where women are defending themselves and advancing the careers of one another. >> thank you for that very important advice. it's time to turn to questions from our audience. if you do have a question, please raise your hand and identify yourself. >> if she doesn't identify herself, i do know her. i already mentioned her. diana negroponte.

. she is a force on behalf of women. diana is -- you've done so much for human rights worldwide. >> thank you for introducing me. [laughter] afghanistan has an area of leverage for women. that is foreign investment. where is the mary barra of the automobile, the tracks? the industries which afghanistan needs and we have shown can be led by women? he focused on the grassroots, admirable, and we will keep at it, but let's look for business leaders who through their industries can enter into afghanistan. >> you are 100% as usual correct and what you are saying.

she is absolutely correct. i will say though there is a challenge, inside afghanistan, clearly now that there isn't that kind of opportunity. but that does not mean that there are not women entrepreneurs leaders. you did hear me also mention how my first visit, we only met with a few micro lenders. but when i came back, there were 100 women and they owned a lumber business and another one with a concrete factory, a kite store, and it went on. there were these proud women owners. grow their business -- they could have the opportunity to grow their business. tragically, by all accounts of the u.n. agencies going in and reporting on what is going on, the only women entrepreneurs, where you have a fraction of movement, they are doing it from their homes, not on the outside.

women have been pulled out of work, being in a work environment. yes, you are correct. i think there was going to be that movement forward. there was a women federation, excuse me, a federation of women business owners that actually did get quite a bit of public and private funding. i believe that is the way of the future inside. outside, there are many accomplished afghan women. i mentioned a number of organizations. the bayat foundation itself, in terms of miriam bayat. i mentioned also minisha, a councilmember. these are afghan women who really are making a difference, if given that chance and

opportunity even on the outside more so, they will have an impact. you are correct to bring that into the mix. entrepreneurship and economic progress certainly breeds leverage without a doubt. because you even see that is the one little space where there is some give for afghan women but i'll be at -- but albeit in a very confined way. >> thank you very much forfor being here today and melissa for organizing this. that was an amazing situation. can you discuss the role of the diaspora community? in a visit to doha, amid the afghan female -- i met the afghan female robotics team.

do they see themselves going back to their country or stay in the hosting countries where they are currently residing? >> 100% crucial, critical, they are already playing a key role. were quite right to point out -- you are quite right to point out that there are those who do not want to stay here and they want to go back. they care about their country. they want it to grow. i've met many women educators. women who are in business who want to go back and continue the work they were doing. i could go on with the list in this regard. yes, i'd say there's a fervent passion of taking and applying their knowledge and make great use of it now whether in the u.s. or and europe, africa, wherever they may be. because afghan women landedand

men landed in different locations across the globe. but i know the ones i've met, i have not met one that has not expressed a desire to go back and to really make a difference, and has that commitment. you are right about the robotics. there are women athletes, women in the police force, by the way, also, women in the military, by the way, all these different sectors who had great pride, and no less, women in government and women ambassadors in foreign policy. so yes, yes, yes, let me connect a few dots here. i also previewed the coalition of afghan and iran women. it actually emphasizes the diaspora. there is a very sizable iranian and afghan diaspora.

bringing them together,because they don't necessarily -- they don't normally come together. they are organizing in that sense, bringing them together. also with women in iran and in afghanistan. thank you for highlighting that. we have had two questions spotlighting areas that are crucial for growing at this time. some programs are trying to really ensure we get a multiplier effect and get new ideas. and actually build upon women entrepreneurs, and for that matter, the diaspora, which is crucial. 100%. >> one more question. ok. >> paula's going to ask a question. if you want to take the two. >> thank you very much. i was amazed he remembered --

you remembered that publication. it was called "best practices." >> you had to be there. all of us were listening to the foreign minister, and then he said, the best thing that we must do is this! and we were like -- [laughter] yes, i remember that. very significant. a tribute to you. >> it was done at the wilson center. >> exactly. >> cheryl contributed -- >> as the cochair, the co-author. >> exactly. i wanted to give her credits. i have not been back to iran in a number of years. but before that, during that short period, there were a lot of refugees in iran.

you would see women at theuniversities , afghani women studying at iranian universities. we would ask them, why? what are you doing here. they would say, as soon as we go back, at least we have a profession. my question to you is, really seriously, do you have the wish or the hope that this will change again and what will it take to bring back what we had after the reign of the paragon? that is number one. i also wanted to to mention, we hosted at the wilson center

twice the team that mrs. bush brought to the bush center, on her visit to washington, she came to the wilson center. both times, i think there were afghani and egyptian women, if i am not mistaken, that were here. this is a good place to have them back again. [indiscernible] finally you mentioned madeleine albright. she always used to say that there is a special place in hell for women who don't support other women. [laughter] i also want to thank who

invited secretary albright to be here. thanks again, paula. it was wonderful of you . to come. it gives us a lot of courage. >> as i said truthfully, i was very inspired bythis forum . i said yes immediately. sign me up. two fast comments, i did not hear that statement from madeleine albright. i have to remember that one. henri, forgive me. i did not recognize you. you usually keep your glasses down. very lovely to see you. my answer to your first question, i really want to say that, yes, i feel positive it will happen. 100%.

i believe firmly in the free spirit of -- in the spirit of -- excuse me, i believe in the human spirit, that it will never be repressed, that that is something that is common across the globe, no matter what country or culture you are in,, people want to live their lives and not be repressed in the way in which they live. in that sense, i'm confident we will see a change in both places. in that sense, the human rights of men, women, and children will indeed prevail. i will convey your message to the bush center. >> we have two questions. let's here both questions -- hear both questions and we will give you an opportunity to respond. >> hi.

i work for common ground in d.c. we do a lot of work with women and youth led and peace building organizations in afghanistan and around the world. what is your outlook on the state of women-led societal development and peace building, in particular? >> thank you. i feel badly. there a young man here -- there's a young man here, him also. >> please go ahead, i didn't see. thank you. >> thank you for being here today. my name is stacy, from the international civil society action network. we spearhead a global women's alliance for security leadership of women led peace building organizations, including over 10 afghan women led organizations.

as you know and have spoken to, afghan women are extremely capable, while mobilized and organized and have been very persistent in our advocacy in negotiations and political processes. now to try to respond to, prevent and negate the violence that is happening. my question is, given the continued roadblocks many of them are facing globally, what do you see from your experience? what can we do know at this point in time to best support them? >> thank you. we will take the last question from you, please. >> i'm from afghanistan

international news outlet. you mentioned engagement with the taliban regime might not work. i was wondering what kind of solution you are thinking of. what should be done if engagement doesn't work. and if you have time, you mentioned what the taliban are doing with afghan women now is gender apartheid, which kind of responsibilities? >> i'm going to give brief answers. on peacekeeping, 100%, it is a key issue. looking at global peacekeeping, i can interpret your question number of ways. when i worked at the state

department, i had refugees, and a high percentage of women were removed from society, ended up in refugee camps. was it ideal? absolutely not. you had women who were brutalized, trafficked. so i'm just scratching the surface in answering your question, but basically it is an area that is absolutely crucial, it is key. one in which there have also been real challenges for women. i'm only giving you two examples. in terms of trafficked women, when it correlates with refugee camps, the kind of arbitrary arrest and detention that takes place. in terms of the best entry point, i'm going to take your question that we. -- that way. there is no silver bullet. my answers have indicated that.

i seriously mean this. my answer to you is all of the above. seriously. all of the above are key entry points here. because at this time it is tragic what is going on. i think every step counts. so, no, there is no one single step that is going to bring about change. i'm answering the first one because i didn't quite catch your second one, i'm sorry. the answer to the first one, to clarify, the question was about normalization. by the way, there is already engagement that takes place. my comment was not about, should we do engagement or not? we are. the state department through tom west and qatar does engage in discussion and there is discussion with the taliban but there has been no traction that

has demonstrated any kind of positive concrete results to the benefit of not just only afghan women but afghan society at large. so my comment was, i do not support normalization because one has seen through this engagement that has happened with the qataris, there has been no concrete result. >> thank you very much. we ran out of time. this was a very engaging discussion. thank you so much for highlighting all the important work that is being done and shedding light on the hope for the future. is very important for us to keep the conversation going and make sure the hope is alive. thank you also for passing on the torch to all of us to continue this work here at the wilson center.

not only through the middle east program but other programs as well including the maternal health initiative. splendid work. thank you. we hope to see you in the future.

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presidential forum in harrisburg, pennsylvania. ♪