♪ host: welcome to the washington journal. we will get your thoughts on the georgia election interference case in the hearing today on

alleged misconduct by fulton county d.a. fani willis and the special prosecutor. former president trump and his codefendants are seeking disqualified the district attorney and the special prosecutor over a romantic relationship, arguing the prosecution of the president has benefited the prosecutors. fani willis denies any wrongdoing. republicans (202) 748-8001 stop democrats (202) 748-8000. independents (202) 748-8002. georgia residents, we want to hear from you at (202) 748-8003. all of us -- all of you can text us at that same number. or go to facebook.com/c-span or post on x with the handle @cspanwj.

joining us is stanley dunlap, a state government reporter with the georgia recorder. in your story this morning, the title you use for the hearing is thursday hearing in the georgia election interference case could be blockbuster. why blockbuster? guest: good morning. this is a historic case involving the former president and 14 co-defendants who have pleaded not guilty. we will have the hearing in regards to the knowledge meant of the district attorney fani willis that she did have a romantic relationship with a special prosecutor she appointed in the fall of 2021 to help lead this case. this has been uncovered.

they filed a motion to disqualify fani willis over the idea there was an ethical conflict of interest, misuse of taxpayer funds. worst case scenario for the fulton district attorney's be a disqualification. if you remove the district attorney the case is basically on hold and it would be up to some other prosecutor to take the lead. host: county superior court judge scott mcafee has allowed this hearing to go forward. he was asked by the prosecutors to cancel it, to throw it out. he did not do that. why? guest: he said there has been a knowledge meant there was at some point a romantic relationship and hearing

testimony from some of the witnesses -- we will get more details -- he made the remarks it was serious -- excuse me. host: no worries. you find your lights. we will wait for you. we will go to calls while you get situated. as we were just turning from stanle dunlap, there is this evidentiary hearing today. the judge wants to hear what the former president, attorneys, and co-defendants have to say about these allegations of misconduct. they say the fulton county d.a. has benefited financially and the special prosecutor, nathan

wade, have benefited financially because of their romantic relationship. stanley dunlap, are you back with us. guest: i am back. i have some motion sensors. it normally goes off when nobody else is here. i apologize for that. it is light -- host: is live television. that is all right. guest: your last question was why did he move forward with the hearing? host: he decided not to cancel it and he wants this hearing. he has said there will be a limit to what he wants brought forward in this courtroom. what exactly is he looking for? guest: he is looking for the relationship.

in the affidavit district attorney willis filed there is a clear demarcation of her saying the romantic relationship did not occur until several months after she hired rate. -- after she had hired wade. the defense attorney will be put on the stand. wade's former law partner and the attorney in his divorce case. the defense will try to prove it is a longer relationship. the judge says he does not want to hear the relationship details and the dirty laundry. host: the issue is whether or not the judge was lied to about the timing of this relationship. walk us through what the district attorney has said, fani

willis, what has she said outside of the courtroom before today? when did she talk about these allegations and what did she say at certain times that led us to today? guest: publicly she is not said much beyond what was in the court affidavit. she did appear at a church service a few weeks ago and at that time all she did was to fit nathan wade's professional andreputation, saying he was me than qualified to handle a rico case of this magnitude. taking the claim that none of that should matter moving forward. she admitted that she had met nathan wade personally and

professionally, then they became friends, and it was not until after going through several potential candidates for november 2021 she says the relationship started around march 2022. she has not gone into too much details about the relationship. it is been more that this does not merit me being barred from the case. host: one final question. if she is disqualified and her team is disqualified, what happens in this case? guest: it would be up to the prosecutors cancel of choque -- the prosecutors counsel of georgia to see if there would be another district attorney that would step in. as much energy and resources has been spent on this to have somebody come in. talking about potential trial they were planning on late

summer and august, around then. it would be up to the prosecutor to see if somebody else would be willing to take the lead. if you see other conflict of interest cases you have to get somebody outside to come in. host: so we are talking about a delay for months, potentially. guest: a delay for months and potentially the case not going anywhere if nobody is able to step in and take over. this is a pretty big deal. the hearing will determine the course of the case. host: stanley dunlap covering this case for the georgia reporter, state government reporter. thank you for your time. guest: thank you so much. host: rob in new york, democratic caller. caller: thank you for c-span.

i wonder if you could take up some information on how much money of the campaign conferences -- contributions that go to trump are paying for these lawyers to defend him on all of these likely criminal prosecutions. if it was my donation going to pay for what should come out of his pocket i would be upset with that. host: tie this back to what we are talking about today, which is focusing on this georgia interference case and the hearing today on whether or not the fulton county d.a. should be disqualified from further prosecution of the former president. caller: the relationship this

woman had with this gentleman has nothing to do with the likely criminal wrongdoing of the former president. it is a separate issue. you still have to keep your eyes on what he did was wrong, but the larger point, if you will allow me another second, is -- i am blanking out on you. host: i will follow up on your report and share a headline. more than 20 $7 million in trump campaign fundraising went to legal costs than the last six months of 2023. let's go to robert in franklin, indiana. republican. caller: good morning. we have two desperate men today.

one is vladimir putin, who desperately needs this ukrainian funding stopped. he also hates nato. host: we have to stick to the topic for our first hour. we are going to do open forum later where he can bring up any other public policy issue. caller: i am getting there. trump is a desperate man looking at prison time. this is about delay. trump, who has spent his life in luxury does not want to look at a prison cell. he would rather have another place to go. here is the deal. donald trump the dealmaker. i will stop the ukraine funding and i will do damage to nato. i have all of these secret

papers, and i am a former president of the united states with a lot of good information. host: i will stick to this georgia election interference case. it is related to a headline on the front page of "the washington times." rump trial -- trump trial coming into focus. trump is expected to at four a conference that could confirm he was trying for hush money for payment records. the first criminal trial of a former president. trump's lawyers will appear with his codefendants in a separate indictment in which trump and others are accused of a vast scheme to overturn george's 2020 election results. that hearing will focus on alleged misconduct by the prosecutor. the sessions could crystallize the timing and the viability of two of trump's former criminal cases with additional clarity

coming after a hearing in florida on march 1. to your point about delaying, that is "the washington post" this morning. david in riverside, california. republican. caller: good morning, america. i have heard a lot of the georgia rico case. it seems president trump and his -- are all organized crime members. how could they be an organized crime group? this case makes being in government as a republican in illegal criminal gang. it is hard to understand how the cases is not been thrown out already. i never thought i would live in a country where being president is illegal and running for president can get you put in jail. this is not about trump, this is about as the democrats say, our democracy. even trump's lawyers have been

threatened with jail time. as a lawyer you do not have immunity for your clients? on top of that fani willis is having an affair with her own chosen prosecutor? this corruption is unbelievable. it is time for america to turn back to the god of the bible. host: let's listen to what the former president had to say about these allegations of romantic relationship. >> fani willis -- her boyfriend she gave him a million dollars to get trump at than they went on vacation spending the million dollars. i told my wife i would like to take you on a vacation like that but i cannot afford at. -- i cannot afford it. norwegian cruise lines. that is something. the nice thing is eventually it gets exposed. when the system works it is a beautiful thing that she gets exposed.

i cannot imagine they will continue on with the case. she wanted to indict senators. she wanted to indict lindsey graham. they had a list of people they wanted to indict. 48 people. these are patriots. a woman 84 years old standing with the american flag and they indict her. these are sick people. then they find out it is a fraud and she is filtering money to her boyfriend. big money. he never did a case before. he never did a case before. other than that he is extremely talented. host: that is the former president on this alleged misconduct of the fulton county d.a. in january 2024, one of the lawyers for a codefendant in this case is the one that filed for a motion seeking to

disqualify the das office because of this alleged romantic relationship at the time -- this alleged romantic relationship -- at the time alleged romantic relationship and saying that two were financially benefiting because they went on vacations. in a court filing at the endf january, this is what district attorneywillis had to say. "the existence of a relationship between s of a prosecution team in and of itself is not a status that entitles a criminal defendant any remedy. georgia courts have held as much for decades in civil and criminal context. personal relationships among lawyers do not constitute impermissible conflicts of interest." this is in the court filing at the end of january. it made january the d.a. -- in

mid january the d.a. delivered a speech in observation of martin luther king day. here is a little bit of her speech than. >> i appointed three special councils. paid them all the same hourly rate. i hired one white woman. a good personal friend. a superstar. i hired one white man. my friend and a great lawyer. i hired one black man. another superstar. a great friend. a great lawyer. [indiscernible] the first thing they say is she is going to play the race card

now. is it playing the race card when the only question one? is it playing the race card when they think i need someone from some other jurisdiction to tell me how to do a job i've been doing almost 30 years? host: fulton county d.a. fani willis there. we are getting your thoughts on this hearing in georgia and whether there was misconduct by her and the special prosecutor nathan wade. your thoughts about the impact of that on this case. selena in new york. democratic caller. caller: i am an 80-year-old african-american woman. i call myself a woman rather than a female. it is unfortunate that someone did not tell her that black women and black men were

colonized in the united states of america in 1619, allegedly. no matter what she did she was going to be found guilty of something and that is white racism. you just played a clip of trump criticizing fani willis. people need to see that. when i see that, i know that mr. donald trump, ex-president, is not qualified to criticize a ghetto rat, but people follow him and listen to him. i am a real transparent person. she should have known better. host: who should have known better?

caller: fani willis should have known better. she cannot get away with anything. donald trump can turn us back into slaves eventually, but black women cannot say anything. we cannot get away with anything. host: you may be interested in this new york times article this morning. "why georgia prosecutor case feels familiar to black women." a defense lawyer argues that ms. willis hiring mr. wade is a way that provides her an incentive to keep the case going. mr. wade has not earned more than $650,000 in 2021 while spending money on joint vacations he has taken with fani willis. ms. willis has set the cost of joint personal travel has been divided roughly evenly between her and mr. rate.

-- and mr. wade. in interviews with black women at various stages of their careers black women expressed they were painfully conflicted about her situation and her treatment in the public eye. to many there is something calling about watching mr. trump and his allies attacked ms. willis over a consensual romantic relationship when he is faced accusations of misconduct and assault. he was recently ordered to pay $83.3 million to each on carol for defaming her. a jury found trump liable for sexually abusing carol. her misconduct was a mistake but not one that should remove her from the case. others thinking about their own experiences in the workplace suggested other concerns. they feel black women are held to a different standard in ms. willis should have known that her identity, along with you

norma's political stakes of the case, would create a white-hot spotlight on her personal conduct. your reaction to that in the new york times this morning. kathy in georgia. republican. caller: good morning. i have very strong feelings about this. as a former member of the north carolina judiciary i feel like any hint of impropriety or irregularity should automatically recuse her from this case, whether it is dealing with donald trump or tweety bird. it is shameful and embarrassing for the state of georgia and fulton county i think she should recuse herself. host: why is that? if this romantic relationship has nothing to do with the case against the president? caller: it is the appearance of

impropriety and what it brings to the court. people in general are having a hard time with their judiciary now, having trust and faith in it. this does not help. host: kathy in the state of georgia. republican. annie in california, republican. caller: i am a republican in name only. i wanted to ask you, so she was having sex with the guy, is that the deal? host: what is your point? caller: i feel like the lady who called up and talked about the ghetto rat, he is correct. this guy has no business race baiting and calling out this woman. i think he is a disgrace. i think that the people -- your

program could focus mainly on reparations to black people that we need an reparations to the indigenous people, land back, land back, land back. this is a side issue. i feel like it is. curiosity that you're putting it -- i feel like it is purient curiosity that you are putting it on. i feel like it is going after somebody. she was having a consensual relationship. i do not understand the ramification it means for the legal team when you cannot have sex with someone on your same team? i was going to ask you about that. by the way you are beautiful and i love you. host: thank you. this is from politico. judge scott mcafee rejected the prosecutor's request to cancel the hearing, decision that keeps alive the prospect that fani willis may have to testify under

oath about her romantic relationship with special prosecutor nathan wade, who she hired to help run the case as a contract attorney. trump and other defendants have alleged willis and wade have conflicts of interest because they've used income from wade's on track to pay for vacations. the judge made clear he has not decided if there was any merit to the allegations. a deputy for willis who has handled key provisions in the state and federal court says allegations against willis amount to gossip meant to cause a spectacle that had no legal basis. even if allegations of financial impropriety were proven, it would have no bearing on the criminal case against trump and his codefendants related to the efforts to overturn the 2020 election in georgia. it sustains the spotlight for a few more days on the personal

life of the atlanta area district attorney whose national profile has skyrocketed amid her investigation and prosecution of the former president. defense attorneys have denied the allegations and say willis 'out-of-court remarks are inappropriate extrajudicial statements. let's hear from david in atlanta, georgia. independent. this is happening in your state. what you make of it all? caller: is a hot mess. i am so disappointed in fani willis and mr. wade because they should have known better. this is one of the most high-profile cases in the history of georgia. you know the defense will come after you seeking any and everything they can to derail this case, and you basically

handed them not necessarily a win, because i do not think their relationship has anything to do with the criminal charges, but it is up in the air. host: what could happen is she and her team get disqualified and then they would have to find a new district attorney to take on this case. we are talking about a delay in months. your reaction to that? caller: i can see judge mcafee taking the case away from fulton county and perhaps giving it to one of the other outlying counties to take over. i have no problem with that at all. i think that might be something that needs to be done. host: did you listen to the district attorney's speech at that atlanta church in

observation of martin luther king day? caller: yes i did. host: what did you think? caller: i really did not think -- she could have been more forthcoming. host: in what way? caller: if you had a relationship with mr. wade, put it out there. you do not really have anything to hide. by you not coming for pathology information, people are going to look at you with a lot of skepticism. even though it does not have bearing on the criminal charges. it looks bad. host: because she did not admit in that speech to a romantic relationship? she did later in a court filing. is that what you are referring to? caller: absolutely. she should have admitted it. host: and then what if she had?

caller: by admitting it, it is going to be in the hands of judge mcafee, but it is about morals and integrity. you are a good prosecutor. the largest county in the state of georgia. host: david in atlanta. let's go back to the beginning of this case. when fani willis the da who brought forth this case against the former president, here she is announcing the charges in august 2023. >> every individual charged in the indictment is charged with one count of violating georgia's racketeer, influence, and corrupt organizations act through participation in a

criminal enterprise in fulton county, georgia and elsewhere to accomplish the illegal goal of allowing donald j. trump to seize the presidential term of office beginning january 20, 2021. specifically, the participants and association took various actions in georgia and elsewhere to block the counting of the votes of the presidential electors who were certified as the winners of george's 2020 general election -- of georgia's 2020 general election. host: the district attorney letting out the case of the former president and the 18 co-defendants in august 2023. today the judge will hear allegations by the former

president and the co-defendants there is been misconduct on the part of the prosecution team due to this romantic relationship between the da and the special prosecutor. marianne in philadelphia, democratic caller. we are getting your reaction. caller: finney willis did make poor judgment -- fani willis did make poor judgment in this case. i will talk more about hor -- about her after we talk about judge thomas and his wife and all her involvement in january 6. this is a total waste of time and it is a political witchhunt against the democrats and to get his court proceedings delayed and delayed. that is all. talk about his relationships and then we can talk about fani willis. he was the president. she is an attorney. i do not feel there would be any

conflict. her love life is not of interest to me and should not be of interest to anybody else. trump is putting himself in the middle to get out of the middle. that is all i have to say. host: marianne in philadelphia. from the court filing by thea, "to be absol, the personal relationship between ecial prosecutor wade and district attorney willis never involved a direct or it financial benefits to the di attorney. there joint or shared finances. e is not now and has never been any shared household. there is no financial dependency or merging oy expenses. financial responsibility for pers travel is divided roughly evenly b the two, with neither beingrily responsible for expenses of the other, and all expenses paid for withividual personal funds

and both are professionals with substantial income. neither is financially reliant on the other." the lawyer who will be bringing evidence on behalf of the district attorney and the special prosecutor says she has mountains of evidence that are tied to it was just laid out in this court filing showing that there has not been any financial benefit to the two. republicans defending the president recently at a news conference in this case and in the other cases against him. this is what they have had to say. >> this is election interference. this is trying to remove someone they know will be the president of the united states, someone who was the 45th, 46th, and will be the 47th president. this is about ensuring they can try to remove him from the ballot by attacking his family, attacking his businesses, by claiming there was a false narrative set up for fraud

regarding the valuation of his property at mar-a-lago, which 20 years ago was valued higher than what they're trying to claim it is today. this is about -- whether it be fani willis, whether it be the attorney general, or the department of injustice. this was never about trying to prosecute a president and all about trying to have him removed for election interference. let me be clear. the united states house of representatives stand strongly and firmly behind the president. host: cory mills there talking about these cases against the president, including the election interference case in georgia. that is what we are focusing on this morning on "washington journal." john in florida. independent. caller: can you hear me? we seem to be blurring a lot of lines.

we have three branches of government. the executive, the judicial, the legislature. did i say that right? host: yes. caller: we have an adversarial system that we have one side going up against the other like a football game and we have referees that called the rules. we do not ask kansas city not to fight as hard as they can against the other team. it is up to the referee to decide what is fair and is not fair. if i'm running a football team i can hire anyone to work for me. jfk hired his brother to be his attorney general. in this case, it is little

blurry because we fund the government to make these hiring decisions and they probably have certain rules about what extent they can use nepotism or their favorite lover to use government funding to pay them. the issue is a case of whether they violated rules using our government to have fani willis hire someone she should not have hired. whether he was qualified, whether she has the right to choose someone who was not qualified. i do not know those details but that is what the argument should be. it should not be about the guilt or innocence of donald trump. that is for a judge to decide. unfortunately the judge should be rolling about whether fani willis violated hiring laws. i am not sure that is the property of his courtroom. people should be investigating this as whether fannie used

government money to hire her lover. host: here is from politicos reporting. "the lawyer that will argue whether there has been misconduct says she will be able to show wade and willis's relationship turned romantic before she brought him onto the case in 2021. if she can show that it would mean willis and wade lied to the judge when they said in court papers last week they did not enter a romantic relationship until 2022. the district attorney's office tends to call willis's father as a witness will testify about her living arrangements to counter allegations willis and wade cohabitated during the trump investigation." that is will play out today at

nine: 30 eastern time in this georgia courtroom. shirley in pennsylvania. independent. caller: i think it is another lash out to stop trump. another lash out to -- that is what he has been doing. the people who elected trump do as he pleases. i do not like the way he talk or the way he acts. he has not done anything for the people. fani willis, i think it is unnecessary to bring that kind of thing to the surface. there are so may things we have to quarrel about worry about whether she had a relationship with the gentleman or not or she hired him or not. it does not make any difference.

whether she spent money or not does not make any difference. the main thing is trump is on trial. host: if she lied to the judge in this court filing, does that matter? caller: yes. no one should lied to the court. some people do not know when a relationship starts or when it stops. she could have been seeing him and making conversation. they could've had talks. maybe she does not know whether it was romantic. maybe they did not have a connection together. you know what i'm saying? host: got it. patrick in michigan. republican. caller: this is pat. host: go ahead. caller: i just had a couple of things to mention so your other listeners do not get surprised like she is being chased.

she did a couple of things wrong. it is not always the prime. i do not know if -- it is not always the crime. i do not know if dating someone is a crime. she didn't assign court documents with the wrong dates of when they started dating. he resubmitted court papers with the wrong lies from her office and she signed that verifying it. that is documented. that will be her downfall today. along with staying in the same house the government was paying for, a safe house, and i guess allegedly they have lyft drivers that confirm they were both there. when this comes up today, that is important. i find it ironic that trump, who i do not have a lot good to say about, is in court today about sex. it is getting to be too much.

if she does get taken off the case she has already shopped for other attorneys before this, and from her own words she said this was the best she could do. i hope they get it figured out so the people can feel that it is fair. from listening to all of the other guests, one side or the other, people are not feeling that this is fair. thank you for taking my call. host: wendy in missouri. independent. caller: i think not only should she be removed, she should also be disbarred. person of color should be curious she chooses to use something for mlk to further race bait and say what is the difference?

the difference is the two white people she was not having an affair with an going on vacations. that is the big difference. it is not because he was black at the other two were white. it is because what she was doing was with the black man and not the two white people. host: brandon in arkansas. democratic caller. caller: regardless of what is happening with fani willis, it should not distract that donald trump was engaged with election interference, which i would say is more egregious. that is pretty disturbing. if miss willis was found to do anything illegal or any kind of impropriety, she should be removed. i think this is just a delay tactic, frankly. host: brandon in arkansas. robert is a republican in richmond, maine. caller: good morning.

how are you? host: doing well. caller: it sounds like a rico case to me. it sounds like the hearing will be about the money and how it was unevenly distributed between the prosecutors. also, i know you have access to all of the news there in front of you. could you outline how many vacations they went on in the last year? they were going on vacations one a month. they were going on cruises every month. host: where did you learn that? caller: i do not have it in front of me. that is what has been recorded. if you have not heard that you are obviously not reading all of the news. that is just one detail of this. the lying is the worst part. the fact they spent 3000 or $4000 a month on cruises.

i hope you would mention that. that is pretty incriminating for people who are not sharing any money. he is being paid by her in the state. anyway, that is about it. host: from the atlanta journal-constitution, a lead atlanta attorney said willis omitted key information from her response, including relevant financial details and an explanation of why wade followed for divorce the day after he was hired on the trump case. the da also needs to respond to comments she made in atlanta's big bethel church which it is alleged was meant to create racial animus against the defendants. trump and republicans in the state legislature have used allegations to undermine the case in recent weeks. in their response the fulton da office said there is nothing wrong with wade being paid

hourly fees as a special prosecutor. according to records obtained by the atlanta journal-constitution, wade is billing the state at $250 an hour and through november 30 has billed for more than 728,000, far more than the other special prosecutors. that is from the atlanta journal-constitution this morning. they have the court filing listed on their website if you are interested in that. donald in michigan, democratic caller. donald? caller: good morning c-span, good morning american people. i listened to the little clip you showed of the house republicans defending trump on these cases, all of these cases. all of these cases trump did nothing but delay.

now as we come up to the election year, now he is blaming the democrats for election interference? these republicans are a disgrace to this nation. this election in november. should vote democratic up and down the ticket because these republicans do not want to govern and do not want to support the constitution. they are supporting a con man, a rapist, just ridiculous. this country needs to wake up before the bombs are dropping on us. he wanted russia to attack our allies. the republicans still support this idiot? they are all disgrace in the house and should be voted out of office. have a great day. host: donald's thoughts in

michigan. patty is an independent in connecticut. your turn. caller: i am calling because when this story first broke there was rumor that her boyfriend, who is on the case, going back and forth to the white house. it sounds like biden has been in a lot of this. i wonder if you have heard of this? i heard this more than once. this is disgusting what the democrats are doing to our country. keeping that full an office is the worst scenario -- keeping that fool in office is the worst. host: kelly is a republican. caller: i want you to ask the gentleman where he found out about them going on vacation every month. they had it in the briefings that have been given to the

judge. this merchant has all of that information. she also -- ms. merchant has all of that information. she also has every time he billed an invoice. that shows he and fani went to d.c. to meet with the white house counsel. why would they be needing to do that? that does not make any sense. if the white house is not involved in any of these cases, am i correct? also they were seeing each other way before he was hired. she hired him knowing that all of the money he would be getting from the taxpayers of georgia, and some from the taxpayers of the united states, would go to him and they would spend it together, and they did. ms. merchant has all of the

evidence. if you want to go to the truth -- if you want to know the truth read the briefings instead of reading the ridiculous lying media. host: you can listen to the attorneys today. one of them is merchant and one of them is cross in today's proceedings on our website, c-span.org. from the guardian newspaper. "bank records from special weight submitted by his wife -- from special prosecutor wade submitted by his wife -- records should bolster allegations in a recent filing made by trump's codefendant, director of trump's 2020 election day operations, seeking to have fani willis relieved of bringing the case against trump and his allies. the first trip was october 4, 2022.

wade paid for a ticket for himself and willis separately. the statement shows his credit card was used to make disco purchases with royal caribbean cruises. the second trip, april 25, involved a flight from atlanta to san francisco. wade paid for a ticket for himself and willis. on may 14, 2023 wade's credit card was used to make purchases with the doubletree hotel in napa, california. host: dug in newport news. independent. caller: we have lost our way. we are worried about silly things against trump, silly things against biden, and the world is getting ready to collapse. why don't we start worrying about what we need to do. if you are a registered voter and you have a registered card,

you have a picture id, there is no mail-in ballot, no absentee ballot unless you are military. if you do not get out and vote your insulting the military that laid their lives down so that you had the right. this country has become weak. host: you think all of these cases and today's proceedings are a waste of time? caller: it is a waste of tax dollars. wire you charging trump with having documents in his garage that were locked up when biden has them in his but he is an old man, he does not remember? you have people sitting in federal prison that have taken documents that have not even gotten a decent trial. these people are taking them home legally. host: doug in virginia. in other news, the house yesterday in the second time around moved to impeach the

homeland security secretary. this would go to the senate. whether or not the senate has a trial -- it is unlikely according to observers and reporters. the vote passed mostly on party lines with no democrat supporting the effort. gop lawmakers joining them. until tuesday evening the house has not impeached a cabinet secretary in almost 150 years. that happening in the house yesterday. tuesday, excuse me. there is also in the house yesterday a rejecting of the salt tax, the state and local taxes. that was happening yesterday in the house. then there is national security threats as well. national security threat as russia plans to put nuclear weapon in space. the white house will brief

congressional leaders. this is from usa today's reporting. all of those topics can be brought up later on the washington journal when we go to open forum. any public policy issue on your mind. kimberly in albuquerque, new mexico. republican. back to the georgia hearing on election misconduct. caller: i'm a black professional like fani willis, and i get it. she found somebody who is equal to her stature, that was attractive. you know how hard that is for a black woman? whether they got together before she got the case together for trump or not, once they got together they should have considered what they were doing as far as going after trump. he is the most high-profile defendant in america ever, other than oj simpson.

it is pretty bad that because he filed for divorce, i am sure his wife is not pleased fani willis is involved in that. things will come out. i feel bad for her because i understand how hard it is. she had to make a decision. her life or her job. a lot of black women have to make decisions like that. host: raymond, independent. let's hear from you. caller: can you hear me? host: weekend. go ahead. -- we can. go ahead. caller: hello? host: moving on. dwight in clinton township. caller: this lady is affecting a lot of people's lives. all these once she is going after, rudy giuliani, they do it

and they run on the thing they want -- they will go after trump. she cannot go after trump and then all of these people are affected. she has a slew of them she is going after. this is terrible. it is her personal life. she has taken an attorney that has gotten paid more than the other attorneys. then she uses the race card. they all do this. they have done it in new york. the other da's, these democrats, they say i will go after trump. the problem is the people that republicans say you cannot use the law and just keep going after your opponent. of course trump acts like a

fool, sometimes, but you cannot do that. she needs to recuse herself. he got on the job because she went after trump and said i want to go after trump. host: jesse in rosedale, maryland. democratic caller. caller: is your turn -- host: is your turn. caller: [indiscernible] is on trial? is it trump or her? i am confused. host: jesse in maryland, democratic caller. coming up we will talk to two lawmakers working across the aisle to promote career and

technical education in the united states. republican glenn thompson of pennsylvania and democrat suzanne bonamici of oregon. later we'll bjoined by a health policy expert at the john hopkins bloomberg school of public health to talk about the rising cost of prescription drugs. stay with us. ♪ >> friday nights, watch c-span's 2024 campaign trail. a weekly roundup of c-span's campaign coverage, providing one-stop shop to see where kids are traveling and what they are saying to voters. this along with first-hand accounts from political reporters, updated poll numbers, and campaign ads. wash the c-span 2024 campaign trail. online at c-span.org, or download as a podcast at c-span now come our free mobile app, or wherever you get your podcasts.

c-span, your unfiltered view for politics. >> since 1979, in partnership with the cable industry, c-span has provided complete coverage of the halls of congress. from the house and senate floors to congressional hearings -- c-span gives you a front row seat to how issues are debated and decided, with no commentary, no interruptions, and completely unfiltered. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. if you ever miss any of c-span's coverage, you can find it anytime online at c-span.org. videos of key hearings, debates, and other events feature markers that guide you to interesting and newsworthy highlights. these markers appear on the

right-hand side of your screen when you hit play on select videos. this tool makes it easy to quickly get an idea what was debated and decided in washington. scroll through and spend a few minutes on c-span's points of interest. a healthy democracy doesn't just look like this, it looks like this, where americans can see democracy at work, when citizens are truly informed, a republic thrives. get informed straight from the source on c-span, unfiltered, unbiased, word for word, from the nation's capital to wherever you are. because the opinion that matters most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span, powered by cable. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back to the "washington journal." our conversation for the next 30

minutes on career and technical education in the united states. joining us from capitol hill for the conversation is a public and from pennsylvania republican lynn thompson and democratic oregon congresswoman suzanne bonamici, both are the cochairs of the congressional career and technical education caucus. congresswoman bonamici, what is the aim of this caucus? guest: the aim of the career and technical education caucus is to raise awareness about how career and technical education classes help students and help the economy. it's been great to work with rep. thompson on this bipartisan effort. we have a federal law, act that helps schools across the country . i know about rep. thompson and i understand that often times these opportunities keep students in schools and get them

ready for whatever path they take about whether they go directly into the workforce or to a college or trade school, career and technical education is hands-on learning, great for students, and it is great for our communities and the economy. host: congressman thompson, when you think about your district, those across the country, what motivated you to start this caucus? why is there a need? guest: this was about learning to earn. my personal story is, when my dad came back from serving in the navy, he went on to a career in technical education school, became a tool maker. he did that successfully. he went from being a tool guy maker to using that school set to developing his own business, to be able to do some light manufacturing, repair work,

retail, even some wholesale. career and technical education is an incredibly important rung on the ladder of opportunity. i have seen that in my own personal life with my family. my dad was able to provide for my family and really provide a model of just how important career and technical education is. we see that over and over again as we hear the stories of individuals who may be came out of the military, right out of high school. maybe they change course with their careers. career and technical education is absolutely one of those incredible pathways to success. host: that is the conversation we are having with these two members this morning, career and technical education david congresswoman bonamici, how would you define that? guest: career and technical

education can look like many different opportunities. i'll give you a couple of different examples. it really is hands-on learning. i was just at liberty high school in oregon where they have a sustainable agriculture class. these students were so engaged in learning. when they are asked where food comes from, it is not just the grocery store. they were growing corn, they made tortillas from the corn, made salsa from the tomatoes and onions they were growing. over on the coast in the beautiful northwest coast in warren 10, the high school there has a fishery. they study sustainable fishery. there are lots of opportunities. st. helens high school has at least seven different career and technical education courses that students can take from auto repair to early childhood education to manufacturing. this is really learning

opportunities that give students experience so they can discover whether they are interested in a field or maybe not, just learning life skills but it is also keeping them in school. my state of oregon has been a leader. in fact, we passed an initiative a few years ago to support or career and technical education courses across the state. one of the advantages is it increases graduation rates because it keeps kids in school and gives them skills they can use. i was just at the oregon manufacturing innovation center in columbia county, oregon, with a big advanced manufacturing center there. they have seven high school students there on manufacturing day to learn about opportunities. this is hands-on learning. . lincoln high school has a wonderful culinary program. a wonderful way for students to learn. guest: the tools of career and technical education are so diverse.

it is wrench is, farm implements, but it is also stethoscopes, paintbrushes. working in the new emerging digital industry, computers. it is so much. pennsylvania is incredibly important, as well, my home state. one out of every five degrees or certificates coming out of pennsylvania comes from a career and technical education school. it is playing an even larger role and that will continue to improve. i like to think some of our advocacy that we do in the career and technical education caucus contributes to that. we have introduced this past session, so far, nine pieces of legislation, one that we are introducing today that supports career and technical education. i'm proud to say that for more than a decade, despite difficult

fiscal times, career and technical education is something this caucus has led in achieving increased investment. the return on investment with career and technical education is about jobs, economic success, it's about opportunity. guest: and keeping students in school. i have had teachers and administrators say thank you because it is helping us get the equipment we need. host: let's get the viewers involved in the conversation this morning, hear what they have to say. we will divide the phone lines by region. (202) 748-8000 if you live in mountain pacific areas. if you have experience with career and technical education, please call in this morning at (202) 748-8002. you can all text us at (202) 748-8003.

we can read some of those to the members of congress as well. congresswoman bonamici, how many students nationwide are participating in career and tech education? guest: i don't know the exact numbers but what we know is we have seen an increase in career and technical education because of the success of the program. not only getting students skills they need but also keeping them engaged in learning. i have to say it is not just the technical skills they learn in these career and technical education classes. they learned a lot of the soft skills as well. spots ability, collaboration, teamwork. those are all skills that will help regardless of where students end up going in terms of college or career. they are very beneficial, so more and more opportunities are available as we are highlighting in this bipartisan caucus the

importance of engaging hands learning through career and technical education. we are seeing more school districts, states understanding that this is an important tool for our education system. guest: the most recent number is 12.3 million individuals that are involved in these career technical education programs nationwide. an exciting part of that, since we passed the modernizing career and took neglect education act for the 21st century, which would have been signed by the president on the last day of july 2018, we have seen a 1.3 million increase in enrollment. really speaks to the fact -- there has always been this bias, this is not a productive job. that is so untrue. this is an excellent way to success in life. the provisions that we put into

that legislation, what suzanne and i have built on with legislation since that time, has really helped open the door. i think it is opened the eyes of parents and certainly students, that this is a great pathway to success in life. host: a question for both of you. you call it a success, and that is what you are seeing the numbers increase. is that because of the salaries and the jobs that these students are getting when they graduate? maybe both. the traditional route of a four-your education is getting too expensive? guest: probably a combination of variables. i think we both really enjoyed getting out and visiting these schools. career and not just about secondary education. we have a lot of adults who enroll in evening classes.

sometimes it is dual youth and adults in the class. when is consistent, when these individuals graduate, on the one hand, they have skill sets, certificates, a diploma, the other hand, a lot of job offers. what they don't have is a student debt the size of a mortgage. i like to think the legislation we have done has made part of that. an unfortunate circumstance, covid, what i refer to as the plague, played a role, as well. we all learned about what is an essential service? who is required to show up in work -- at work in person? those were individuals with a career and technical background. these are essential workers, essential jobs.

i think we would all agree, essential opportunities. guest: i agree it is both, but i also want to note, some students decide to go to college. i'm a big believer in higher education could believe that not everyone is on that path. it's about having a pathway for everyone. even students who go through a career and technical education course in high school who decide to go to college are still benefiting from those skills, hands-on learning. this is engaging learning, not sitting in front of a textbook, really something that gets students soft skills as well as the skills they are getting from the course. host: let's get to our first call from jackson, mississippi. hi, caller. princess in jackson, mississippi. are you ready? i will go on to doug in beltsville, maryland. good morning to you. caller: hi.

i recently raised a couple of kids who are in college. it seems to me -- learning how to learn and then learning specific technical skills. reading, writing, and math, and so forth. my question is what do you think about what the biden administration proposed, allowing all children in the united states to start their primary education at an early age, around three years old, so that by the time they are in high school they don't have to choose a particular path, academic or technical path. they have the time in their schedule to choose things like plumbing or computer programming or whatever. host: we will take the question.

congressman thompson, you go first. guest: early education is important, something that we work on in the education and labor committee. we have the privilege of serving on. early education is incredibly important. reading to your children is the best first start of developing both a passion and skill set when it comes to learning academics. i agree with the congresswoman. there are many different pathways to success in life. our goal is to eliminate the barriers to that, provided exposure to these opportunities. i have a son who earned, doing his education serving the united states military. that is a great pathway to success in life. completed degrees. my youngest son is starting

that, doing virtual learning at a university while still at high school. the career path, many pathways to success in life. there are students that we know that start out in career and technical education, develop a skill set, like health, like my background, but then you go on and continue education. you go on and get a bachelors degree, maybe go on to become a nurse practitioner or physician. when i visit career and technical education programs that have a lot of adults in them, i will find a small percentage of individuals who graduated with either a bachelors or masters degree, they struggled with student debt getting into their field, and now they are back at a career and technical education school to find an opportunity. the interaction between care ede

other pathways is pretty remarkable. host: congresswoman, i will give you the next caller. douglas in virginia. you have experience with career and technical education? caller: yes, i do. i served a machinist apprenticeship in baltimore. first of all, they came to the schools looking for boys who were not doing well in school. they took us into the apprenticeship, put me in school one hour a day, i worked seven hours a day. that one hour paid for the high school classes that i went to at the private school. i got a high school education and an apprenticeship. they sent me around every month to work in a different

department so that i would know how to make steel, know what steel is. i worked in the rolling mills, galvanized department, i made coke out of coal. i learned all about the steel industry. all of this was going on, five-year apprenticeship, at the time that i was going to school and serving my apprenticeship. host: douglas, how did that set you up for life? >> i have done very well. i opened up a machine shop, went bankrupt one time, then became a nasa contractor. i made flight articles to go into space. i have a couple pieces laying on mars.

it was supposed to dig up the mars dirt. it is still up there. it did its job, analyzing the dirt, looking for evidence of their having been life on mars. host: great story. guest: you mentioned apprenticeship programs. those are great. there is nationally -- a national up at should act that hasn't been updated since the 1930's that can give people a path to a good job. there is century high school in oregon in hillsboro just set up a youth apprenticeship program for juniors and seniors. they can go, as a part of their high school education, to a semiconductor company and earn and learn at the same time. they are ready to get a job in the industry when they graduate

or they can go on to get more education. their choice. it's a great example of having a path for everyone whether it be through a career and technical education program, apprenticeship program, or alternative path to success. guest: the reauthorization of the perkins act that we did, our country was really built on a lot of apprenticeships. that was the heart and soul of our workforce. for whatever reason, we got away from that or decades -- for decades. proud to say that the work that we did together with legislation signed in 2018 restored a heavy emphasis on apprenticeships. i agree with you, douglas' story is amazing. from a student who was struggling to someone who contributed, essentially getting us to and performing a function on the surface of mars. that is pretty cool.

host: i am so glad he called in this morning. linda in deer park, washington. caller: hi. your program reminds me of my two children. i had a son who was struggling in high school, wanted to be a snow bum, skiing, hanging out with his friends, didn't want to go to school. my husband put him in job corps. that is a program for kids that are struggling, wanting to quit school, just get a job and not go anywhere in life. it helps them to get their ged, helps them to pick some kind of a job they want. each job corps program in different states have different programs. he picked heavy equipment. at the end of the program, they

helped him get his ged, graduate. the military people came and he joined the navy, and it up being what they call a cb, helped him through the military. my daughter, she had dyslexia. she was struggling in school. she said, well, if he can do it, i can do it, too. she went to john corps and became a heavy equipment operator, now making really good money. now her kids are interested in going to job corps. i want to give a shout out to that program. similar to what you are talking about. guest: thank you for bringing that up. i actually have two job corps centers in the district i represent.

not a residential program but these job corps programs which is run through the department of labor really give students who are struggling an opportunity to get skills. another benefit of job corps is the employer's, in oregon, they really appreciate it because it helps them build their workforce. it is a win-win, good investment for us to make in job corps programs because now people like your son and daughter are contributing to the community and economy. guest: i have seen the success that job corps can make in the lives of individuals. what you describe -- and congratulations to you and your two children. led them down the path to success. i have a family member who has some special needs, struggled in the classroom. he just didn't get it.

when someone was speaking to him, conventional teaching, he was lost. he would get in trouble. but you put something in his hands, you allow learning to become experiential, to have it be applied. he was able to master math and language and everything else. that is a part of career and technical education, applied academics. there are many for whom that is a more effective learning style. host: let's go to linda in portland, oregon. caller: hi. i was impressed with hearing suzanne bonamici talk about the various technical programs around the high school, in oregon, to hear a lot of information. i have grandchildren in school. there has been some adverse

negativity due to the current line of thinking on what is being taught outside of reading, writing, arithmetic. in the technical area, my husband took auto mechanic in high school, and while he didn't become a mechanic, it has really helped our whole lives that he is able to service our cars. my daughter, when she was in high school, took a culinary class, has been a pastry chef for her adult career, works at a very nice retirement center where she is the head pastry chef. i think technical education is very important for kids although i don't believe that starting at three or four is at all good for kids. they should be allowed to be little children and just play,

develop skills at that age and begin school. it was very good to hear what she had to say. the conversation has been good. guest: thank you so much. certainly in childhood education before the k-12 system, that is about what is age-appropriate for young children. but thanks for those great examples. your husband taking the auto mechanic course, your daughter with the culinary program. those are great examples of programs, classes i visited without hands-on learning. i have a great story, too, you said even if you don't go onto the field. i was visiting and auto career career and technical education course in beaverton. mostly boys, a couple of girls in the class. i asked if they were interested in going into the field, but they said not really, we just want to make sure that nobody

takes advantage of us when we get our cars fixed. a lot of advantages come from these courses. there is a nonprofit organization called wind and oar, and they work with at risk students building boats. it is great. you can see from watching these students, they are learning to work together, learning a skill. the boat actually has to float, they have to work together as a team to make that happen. these kids were at school because that program was there, keeping them learning. learning how to work together, collaborate. they are also letting math and science as they measure and cut, work together as a team. as rep. thompson was saying, students have different ways of learning. these are great programs and thank you for calling with examples from your family. i am glad that your husband and daughter are doing well. guest: that is really a shout out to skills usa.

these students have an opportunity to apply their skills in competition and work together. i don't know how many times i visit schools and they are building tractors or vehicles, or they are just individual skills, and they go on to competition. the chance to be able to shine, apply their skills, skills usa does a great job of providing those opportunities. in the workplace, i know we do better when we can work together. i don't think there is an industry or workplace where that is not true. i think career and technical education really lends itself to learning that skill set of being able to cooperate, learn together, teamwork, developing leadership, everything that comes with it. guest: and talk to spirit, as well.

st. helens high school, they have an auto repair class, so they learned that they get the revenue from doing the work. they keep the program going that way. pretty amazing lessons learned. guest: some of these schools are very entrepreneurial. one in montgomery county, pennsylvania. they have a program -- i was blown away by it as i learned about it. these youth considering going into teaching. academic skills and what you teach, you can get that, but there is a skill set of being an effective teacher. figuring out the best learning style for each student, how you communicate, how do you get it so that they can learn and apply. that was one of the more entrepreneurial programs i've heard about in career and technical education. right now we are struggling. enrollment in higher education programs for teachers is down.

we are struggling. you see so many schools easing up standards for who is in the classroom. programs like that, i thought i was pretty creative, actually, as a career and technical education program. host: republican congressman glenn thompson and representative suzanne bonamici taking your thoughts and questions about career and technical education. ruth is next in texas. caller: hello. y'all are bringing back some wonderful memories from my teenage years. in 1964, as an 11th grader, i was part of a program called ict, industrial cooperative training. i went to work as a nurse's aide in the county hospital.

from that two years of working in that hospital, i made my career without ever having to go to college. earns my living that way. -- earned my living that way. what it gave me as a very, very poor young woman in texas was a path keep me in school and help me graduate. because at 50 cent an hour at start, and making one dollar an hour when i graduated -- host: at the end of your career, how much were you making it our -- an hour? caller: i went blind at the end of 1991, but i was working for some cardiovascular doctors, editing their papers that they submitted to jama, the medical

journal. i really cannot remember how much but that was in 1981. it was my livelihood. it set me on a path for success in life. i would have been a high school dropout without it because i could not afford to stay in school. all the kids in my class, only five of them could afford to go on to college. the race continued working in the field -- the rest continued working in the field that they did in high school. one went on to own their own business. it is a fabulous thing what you all are talking about doing. this particular program was done

away with many years later because some lawyers got together and said, oh, those kids have to make minimum wage. host: i will leave it there. rob wittman thompson? guest: the story is inspiring. that is what we see. i have always believed, it is not important where you start out in life, it's important where you end up. the great launch pad for that is like what ruth experienced in 1964 with being enrolled in that ict program. proud to say that a lot of those programs are continuing today. there are some great opportunities for hands-on. a lot of career and technical education students will be in the classroom learning skill sets, but another part of the day they will be out in the workforce, applying those in a

supervised setting. as we heard on this program the past few minutes, what great careers that has led to. career and technical education are definitely important rungs on the ladder of opportunity. host: let's go to josh in woodbridge, virginia. caller: good morning. host: quick question or cognitive. caller: i'm 29 years old, veteran, started my electrical apprenticeship when i got out. i am at the end of my friendship here. my hours are split between new hampshire and virginia, and there is not a real consensus among the states of what exactly an apprenticeship should entail, reciprocal license agreements. there are some but not across the country. now i am stuck between two states that do not reciprocate. i just want to float out the idea of maybe there being some

sort of federal incentive for the states to standardize apprenticeship programs or license super occasion. because it is a hard-sell for tradespeople to start out an apprenticeship sometimes especially someone coming from later in life. when you start at minimum wage, 15, $20 an hour and you have a family, that is hard to live on. maybe an idea to have a registered apprenticeship, perhaps a lower tax rate on overtime to help make and meet -- ends meet, incentivize people to come into the field. host: great questions for our final minute here. congresswoman bonamici, you go first. guest: what a great story and suggestion. thank you so much for sharing your story, josh. registered apprenticeships are important because b want to have standards among states.

i hear you about the concern about different state standards but i really applaud you for getting as far as you did, for serving in the military. thank you for that service. i just want to mention, too, one of the things i've been working on is to have the support services -- services as people are going through a program. whether it is tools or transportation or childcare. that helps people stay in those programs. you are right, you want to be able to support a family on those wages. registered apprenticeship could be a path through those good wages. i remember talking to someone in high school, i want to become an electrician, what is the path to do that? thank you for calling in. they keep for your great suggestions. host: congressman thompson, from you? guest: as a military dad, thank you for your service. i have complete confidence in your future success.

there is a role for the federal government when it comes to career and technical education and apprenticeships. these are the kinds of barriers that we try to deal with. i find a lot of states are embracing what some are now calling the paper ceiling, recognizing the importance of career and technical education. the early start of that is getting good advice, as the congresswoman mentioned. today, we are introducing a bill, counseling for career choice. that bill will be introduced in the next couple hours. part of that is making sure we are putting resources with those school counselors, providing them direction and resources so they can do a better job of laying out all the different pathways to success in life.

whether it is apprenticeships, combination of apprenticeship and career and technical education, not just secondary but postsecondary. i think that would be the ninth piece of legislation in this 118th congress. we are not done yet. we need to can need to make sure that we do our best to promote what is a great pathway to success in life which is career and technical education. host: congressman glenn thompson, congresswoman suzanne bonamici, thank you both for coming on the "washington journal," talking to our viewers and appearing together. we appreciate your time. guest: thank you for the opportunity. host: when we come back, later on in the program, we will be talking about the rising cost of prescription drugs. that is later on. first, when we come back from the break, open forum. any policy or political issue on your mind. those are the phone numbers on your screen. start dialing in.

>> american history tv, saturdays on c-span2. exploring the people and events that tell the american story. at 6:00 eastern, there is talk about the role of african-americans in the civil rights movement before the 1950's and 1960's. 7:00 eastern, we continue with the series, free to choose, coproduced by milton friedman and his wife rose. the episode is entitled "what is wrong with our schools?" then at 9:30 on the presidency, franklin roosevelt's relationship with the supreme court, having appointed seven of nine justices, and if the court looked at his wartime vision.

10:30 eastern on historic campaign speeches, we look at a speech by john mccain at a michigan campaign rally, followed by vermont independent senator bernie sanders peeking in dearborn, michigan in 2016. exploring the american story. watch american history tv, saturdays on c-span2. find a full schedule on your program guide. watch online anytime at c-span.org/history. >> if you ever miss any of c-span's coverage, you can find it anytime online at c-span.org. videos of key hearings, debates and other events future markers that guide you to interesting and newsworthy highlights. these points of interest markers appear on the right-hand side of the screen when you hit play on certain videos. this timeline tool makes it easy to quickly get an idea of what was debated and decided in washington.

scroll through and spend a few minutes on c-span's point of interest. >> friday night, watched c-span's 2024 campaign trail, a weekly roundup of c-span's campaign coverage providing a one-stop shop to discover where the candidates are traveling across the country and what they are saying to voters. this alongside first-hand account from political reporters, updated poll numbers, one reason data, and camping ads. watch the c-span 2024 campaign trail, friday nights, online at c-span.org, or download as a podcast on c-span now, our free mobile app, or wherever get your podcasts. c-span, your unfiltered view of politics. >> a healthy democracy doesn't just look like this, it looks like this, where americans can see democracy at work. when citizens are truly informed, our republic thrives.

get informed straight from the sources on c-span. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. from the nation's capital to wherever you are. because the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span, powered by cable. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back to the "washington journal." we are in open forum this morning. any public policy issue or politics that is on your mind, we will take that this morning. we will get to calls in just a minute. i want to start with the headlines about national security threats that were brought to the public's attention by the chair of the select intelligence committee, mr. turner, yesterday at the white house. national security advisor jake sullivan was asked about a tweet from mr. turner calling on the

white house to declassify the information. [video clip] >> i reached out to the gang of eight to offer myself up for a personal briefing to the gang of eight. in fact, we scheduled a debriefing with the four house members tomorrow. that has been on the books. i am surprised that congressman turner came out today in advance of the meeting for me to sit with him alongside our intelligence and defense professionals tomorrow. that is his choice to do that. all i can tell you is i am going to see him, sit with him and the other house members of the gang of eight tomorrow. i'm not in position to say anything further from this podium at the time other than to make a broad point that this administration has gone further and in more creative, strategic ways, dealt with the declassification of intelligence in the interest of the united states, more than anyone in

history. at the same time, we of course have to continue to prioritize and focus very much on the issue of sources and methods. ultimately, these are decisions for the president to make. in the meantime, the most important thing is we have an opportunity to sit in a classified setting and have the kind of conversation with the house intelligence leadership that i in fact had scheduled before congressman turner went out today. host: from the white house yesterday. this morning, usa today reports the national security threat, russia plans to put nuclear weapons in space. the u.s. has informed congress it has gathered intelligence detailing russia's desire to put a new clear weapon in space. the intelligence confirmed by two officials not authorized to speak publicly will be subject of the meeting between the president, his top national security advisor jake sullivan and congressional leaders today. you just hear jake sullivan talking about that meeting.

abc news says russia's push to put a nuclear weapon in space would be potentially to target satellites, not to be dropped on earth. thursday marks the two-year anniversary of vladimir putin's war in ukraine. from politico this morning, they note this is not exactly breaking news. u.s. officials have known some information about it for more than a year, and congressional leaders for more than a week. so the rationale for mr. turner's timing is unclear. in parentheses, political playbook notes, the white house was peeved about this. that is one store you can talk about today in open forums. jessica, democratic caller, wichita, kansas. what's on your mind? caller: i hope everyone is having a great day. that story is very concerning.

i don't really believe that they are doing it for satellites and whatnot. it is obvious they are trying to scare us, and probably cause a panic, but it is very concerning. another thing on my mind, yesterday, there was a shooting at what was supposed to be a victory parade for the chiefs. my thoughts and prayers are with the victims and families. the last thing on my mind is of course trump. i still think he needs to be put in prison for his crimes. he knows he did wrong. i wonder what your thoughts are on those. host: all right, jessica. we are getting your thoughts this morning, as well as all others calling in. you can also post on x or send us a text.

investigator search for what motivated a shooting that left one dead in more than 20 wounded at the chiefs to propose celebration yesterday. randy in suffolk, virginia. republican. caller: good morning, c-span. a couple things going back to two segments ago about fani willis. i'm interested in the visits to the white house before the indictments were brought against trump in georgia. that is pretty bad. if that is the case, but has been involved in all of these prosecutions. that needs to be taken head-on, get into the bottom of. also there was a report that came out yesterday i believe. three liberal, very liberal reporters, wrote a report that our cia was involved with foreign cia's, going after trump

in 2016, which led to the crossfire hurricane, trying to get him in trouble, and then the impeachment. foreign agencies colluding with the american cia. that is treasonous. john brennan and those involved, those 51 people that signed that letter saying the hunter laptop was all disinformation, that was all true. they should be brought up on charges for treason. those are my thoughts this morning. host: ben is next. springfield, virginia. democratic caller. caller: good morning, c-span. i'm actually calling you for two things. the first thing on my mind, i just came back from overseas, precisely china. i wanted to tell you all the

things that we are hearing here. not necessarily you guys. c-span, the news hour, all of these other -- they do a wonderful job. basically i'm trying to debunk the lies that have been portrayed. it is unbelievable. when you go there, you see everything, and you say how could this be treated like this in the u.s.? everything is terrible, everything is bad. that was one thing i was calling about. we need to correct that. you always hear in congress, you have the gentleman from wisconsin, mike gallagher, if i'm not mistaken, is a chair on the special committee on china. he is always bashing china, this and this. that is not really the truth. my other problem is, i'm

actually from overseas but michigan is my adopted home state. i feel a sense of betrayal and sadness. i am calling because kansas is also a part of the midwest. it is utter madness. it is somehow being treated as a cost of living in america. i am so sad that we have kids that cannot even go places, losing kids. i don't mean to say this, but if something like this happen to in congress, maybe they would take an initiative and do something. thanks again, c-span. you are a wonderful forum. you are fair. i don't mean to include you in the mess about the western media. thanks again. caller: mark in st. paul, minnesota. republican. caller: what is on my mind is

the story that broke yesterday about, that contradicts president biden's indignation with regard to his allegation that it was special counsel hur who brought up the issue of beau biden's death and he was all upset about that. it was reported yesterday that it was actually biden himself who brought that topic up during the interview with special counsel hur. i believe that that story is worthy of significant coverage. host: from political playbook, the blowback from special counsel robert hur's handling of president biden's classified documents. despite anger over hur asking about beau biden 's death, the president was the one who brought up the subject in the interview.

some democrats have told white house staffers that they botched the probe, both in the decision to make biden available for such an interview, and the communications rollout response to the report. pat in north dakota. independent. hi, apt. caller: good morning. i am just kind of upset on why the taxpayers don't have more clout on how our money is spent. where is the taxpayers union and what do they do? i asked a few months ago, maybe you could have somebody on from the taxpayers union explaining this to us. host: we did recently have a taxpayer advocate on. go to our website. caller: i saw the taxpayer advocate but what does the taxpayer union do? there is supposed to be a taxpayers union. host: got it. we will take the suggestion. on your question of what does congress do, how do they spend the money?

here is the economy and business section of the washington post this morning. congress agrees on the cash but not how to spend it. lawmakers are racing to beat fast approaching government shutdown deadlines in march but deep policy divisions may slow them down on everything from passenger rail funding to irs resources support to the world health organization. the big question about total spending are settled already. house speaker mike johnson, senate majority leader chuck schumer reached a funding deal in january in line with the framework president biden and kevin mccarthy agreed to last spring. last month, negotiators also agreed to allocate spending limits for all 12 appropriations bills or year-long spending legislation for the rest of 2024 fiscal year. the house and senate remained bitterly divided on how to disperse some of the money. democratic-controlled senate largely wrote its spending bills to adhere to biden and mccarthy's deal.

the republican-let house has steep funding cuts. the house also included dozens of contentious policy divisions called riders because they ride along and often unrelated legislation. there is also called your marks at times -- earmarks at times. speaking of the irs, the irs commissioner will be before the house ways and means committee, 10:00 a.m. eastern time. he will be testifying, giving an update on tax filing season and recent changes at the irs. probably about their budget, as well. you can watch that live at 10:00 eastern time on c-span2, c-span now, or the free mobile video app, or online at c-span.org. clyde in lawton, oklahoma. democratic caller. good morning. what's on your mind?

caller: well, people in history, i don't know why they cannot pay their bills. this started happening years and years ago not being able to pay the bills. debts are getting too bad that you cannot do anything about it. if they don't do something about it, there might not be a united states. host: adele, springfield, illinois. good morning. caller: good morning. following up on the two callers, we have a weapons military buildup of $95 billion. i want people to pay attention to the ukraine war and the war in gaza. biden just said the other day that this actually helps our economy because we make weapons and give them to people fighting wars. my thought was come in ukraine, a washington post article said

that before they had 40 people on the front lines, now only 10. there are not enough soldiers for ukraine to turn this around. the idea that there is a -- the military complex has such a stronghold on our economy. i just also learned, in the world bank, they expect $400 billion to reconstruct ukraine. when we talk about spending money on wars, -- the idea of america being a priority, america first makes sense to us, rather than funding wars and creating violence in the world. we need to make peace. there is a solution to war except that people die and you end up signing a treaty. host: we will go to st. louis,

missouri. don is watching. an independent. caller: good morning. in response to that last caller, trump will say anything to get elected. i would hope that he knows that by now. three things. the january 6 attempted coup trial should have been starting in march, but the d.c. court and the supreme court are dragging their feet as usual. secondly, mitch mcconnell said at the time, trump was guilty but he didn't want to do anything about it. if this is the case, over 62% of the american voters want to hear the verdict before the election. they are all putting trump above the law. the only one not dragging their feet is jack smith. no wonder the supreme court is so low in the polls. it is really disgusting. host: donna's thoughts in st. louis, missouri.

front page of the new york times this morning, victory further trimmed the gop margin. this was in the special election that took place earlier this week in new york's third district to replace former congressman george santos. the democrat won, tom suozzi. he is coming back to congress, served before. the new york times reports this will give them almost no cushion, house republicans, to deal with the inevitable absences caused by illness, travel delays, weddings, funerals, unforeseen events that could keep republicans away from the house floor for votes. it comes as congress is facing a crush of issues including early march deadlines for funding the government and a pending emergency national security spending bill, sending aid to ukraine, israel, and other american allies. that is in the new york times this morning. then there is also this, front page of the washington times this morning. 3.5 million migrants help with

the economy. testimony yesterday by the congressional budget office, the biden administration issued 3.5 million work passes to migrants, many released and caught at the border, provided an unexpected boost to the economy. the surge of migrants helped stave off what some analysts predicted was a guaranteed recession. cbo figures the labor force will have 5.2 million more people over the next decade and projected, making the economic numbers a bit rosier. more workers mean more output, more income, and that in turn leads to higher revenues, the cbo director told lawmakers yesterday. we covered that hearing on c-span. if you are interested in learning more about the budget and the economy, impact of immigration on it, go to our website,, c-span.org. the winter in new york in that third congressional district, according to the washington post editorial board, is immigration

reform. it is still not too late for republicans to consider their rejection on the border deal in the senate. instead of the demagoguery, they could suggest adjustments to the package. maybe they want the instructions on the use of humanitarian parole applied to those who come the airport. maybe they don't want the bill -- as unlikely as it is because of mr. trump's influence, democratic leaders will be willing to deal if republican leaders show abel and mr. compromise in good faith. new york voters just gave them a reason to do it, referring to former congressman tom suozzi's win in that new york third district. he campaigned on compromise on the border. listen to speaker mike johnson and his take on democrats flipping that seat. [video clip] >> the result last night is not

something in my view that democrats should celebrate too much. think about what happened. they spent about $15 million to win a seat that president biden won by eight points. they waited by less than eight points. their candidate ran like a republican. he sounded like a republican talking about the border and immigration. everyone knows that is a top issue. that incumbent had been a three-term member of congress, 100% name id, deep history in the district. our candidate was relatively unknown, had a shortshe ran a r. there was a weather event that affected turnout and a lot of factors. that is no way a bellwether of what will happen this fall. i've been to 17 states. whether i am out west, long island, deep south or midwest it does not matter. there is a fervor among the american people and it is

bipartisan. people know that it is on the wrong track. 74 percent believe that the country is on the wrong track because of the leadership in the white house. president biden has the lowell -- the lowest approval rating of any president running for reelection. it goes down precipitously. the reason is because of all the things we talked about. there is a lack of leadership. and now more and more americans have made their opinion about this. that will have a big effect in the fall as well. new york three was what it was but that has nothing to do on the efforts going forward. [end video clip] host: speaker mike johnson on democrats picking up another seat after the special electric -- election and the third district. the other side of the aisle, here is one democratic leader and his reaction to the outcome of that election. [video clip] >> the house democratic caucus

is so pleased to welcome back the congress tom suozzi after his successful election last night. it is a great day for the country and the people of new york's third congressional district. and it is a return to replacing someone in that -- placing someone in the seat with the dignity to solve problems and to work in a bipartisan way to get things done rather than the sideshow that was george santos. one less vote for maga extreme republicans to advance abortion bans, or their desire to slash social security and medicare. or to help ellie and heirs cheat on their taxes. those are the things that the public knows are important for house democrats. this victory was made possible because of the leadership of our dccc field general, leader

jeffries and the leadership team that they made smart and strategic decisions and investments down the home stretch that lead to success. the selection shows that the economic agenda is working and people are reaping the benefits of landmark legislation that we helped pass together and that tom helped pass with us. because of the leadership of president biden and vice president harris, we have created 13.8 million jobs, inflation is cooling and wages are rising. we know there is more work to do to ensure that everybody feels economic success and we are building a resilient economy that works for everyone. we are excited to see this result, and we are excited to see around the country the benefit that those pieces of legislation provide. [end video clip] host: pete aguilar reacting to the outcome of that new york

third district race. because of the race and because of the border deal in the senate, now going nowhere in the house, wall street journal reports this morning that the president is now weighing executive action on the border. one action that they could take was further ramping up of a program called family expedited removal management where migrant families are released into the country on ankle monitor's and screen for asylum within a few weeks and deported if they do not clear the initial standard. they also discussed reviving other trump era bans in which case they try to make any migrant ineligible. if they enter the u.s. illegally. federal court struck that down and it is not clear if the president will get over a similar hurdle. the administration touted a 50% drop in illegal crossings from

january to december making the past month one of the lowest of biden's presidency. it is thought to be thanks to stepped up immigration enforcement in mexico at behest of the administration. you can talk about immigration and the border this morning in open forum. luis in -- louise in massachusetts, democrat colander. -- democratic caller. caller: i would like to thank your program for the educational activity. i am just feeling so bad about the congress. they cannot all be so stupid as to think that trump is a good person for the country and at

helsinki, trump snatched the translator's notes out of their hand and it is probably and somebody's toilet in helsinki and those notes belong to the united states people. and we will never know what he said to putin and it is obvious that putin owns trump, just the way trump owns some of those people in congress and the people voting for trump are voting for putin and trump will do anything, anything. some of his little helpers almost murdered paul pelosi and he is horribly dangerous and the

idea that congress is doing whatever he wants is just atrocious and i am afraid that their husbands and wives will get the pelosi treatment. host: robert from texas. independent. caller: good morning. thank you for having me on. i want to comment on two separate issues. the first being about the earlier segments about the statement. the second statement would be about the russian satellite that is now in orbit. congressman mills said and implied that donald trump is the 45th, 46th and will be the 47th

president and that is inherently unconstitutional because if you think that donald trump is the incumbent president, but as per the second submit -- the 13th amendment he has to drop out of the race for what according to congressman mills is a third term, which is unconstitutional. the second issue, the russian nuclear device that they launched last week. that we found out about only last night. they also have a direct ascent hypersonic. and if the russians have it we have it as well. this is not an end of time scenario because if that occurs

they can knock out our satellites. we can also construct faraday cages to protect our electronic equipment so that even if something like that can occur we can mitigate the impact. and we have a recovery afterwards. host: robert in texas. kansas city missouri, democratic caller. caller: good morning, i want to reflect on what happened yesterday at the super bowl rally that the chiefs put on and the shooting that happened unfortunately and some people died. i want c-span viewers to understand that gun control is not in the city like missouri and kansas city have no control over the guns so the state does

not allow them to set their own policy. that is number one. number two, i know about st. louis but the kansas city police department is also under the control of jefferson city or the state which is run by republicans. so the city has no control on what to do with the police administration and how law & order are carried out. they are totally under the control of the state as opposed to the city itself. thirdly, the governor spoke at the rally yesterday, which i was going to go to that i did not. the republicans have loosened gun policy so much, right to carry with no license or anything that people have gone nuts. and now people are breaking into cars, thinking that there might be a gun inside so they can steal it and sell it. the country needs to know that these loosened gun policies

being enacted by republicans are not helping law in order and is doing the reverse. and now the rally yesterday, a beautiful day and people were enjoying themselves and ended in such a horrific way because they were guns involved. you know, just keep putting more guns into every town and every person's hands and they expect for things to get better. they will not get better. my heart goes out to everyone who suffered yesterday during the shooting. so please, let us do something about guns. let us bring insensible gun control and that will help everybody. thank you. host: an update on congressional leaders. reporting from "the washington journal," james clyburn said that he would step down from house democratic leadership will seek reelection. he has represented south carolina since 1990 three and has been considered a political

kingmaker in his home state. he gave joe biden a crucial endorsement in february 2020 ahead of the south carolina democratic presidential primary which was considered a turning point in that year's campaign. host: thomas in texas, democratic caller. caller: hello. i tell you what, i cannot see how anyone would put donald trump back in the white house. i've never seen anything like it. just running and hopping to get to vote for him. he is a crook. you cannot say that. i do not know. i just i -- i am not ready to give up on politics. because i cannot put up with from. host: the former president asked the supreme court to weigh in on his argument of immunity from

prosecution because he was serving as president. the supreme court chief justice gave special counsel jack smith a week to respond to that. he took two days. according to political playbook a filing quickly upheld rulings by federal appeals courts, both of which rejected the former president's immunity claims. smith has been eager to start a trial on allegations that he attempted to steal the 2020 reelections for cities that were supposed to begin march 4 and has been denied -- has been delayed. now it is in the hands of the high court, nine justices, three of whom were nominated by the former president. if they quickly side with smith, legal experts tell the washington post a trial could begin in late may or june. janice from florida. republican. hello.

caller: good morning. how are you? host: we are in open forum. what is on your mind? caller: several things. you only get one call every 30 days. and then we do not get enough time to say what we want to say. i have four points. the first one is israel. how all of the coverage is about gaza. nobody is talking about the israelis dying. and the idf is doing a good job. and the fact that hamas is the ones holding their own people hostage and using them. and they are really at fault for all of the casualties. he is purposely putting his people in harm's way. i read something this morning about they found that he has an underground bunker for his

family with guns, money, kitchen and a toilet and the whole shebang. meanwhile, the people on the gaza strip are trying to get out and the idf are helping the ones that can make it. hamas is telling them they cannot. so i would like to know where is the coverage on what is happening with the israelis. there is not very much of it. my second point is to miss bonnie in georgia. i am also an african-american woman and because there is so much coverage on this case, which should have been above and beyond reproach. what she has done has nothing to do with that but with integrity. at the end of the day -- at the end of the day it is guilty. it is a sad day when democrats and republicans cannot call a spade a spade. she is wrong. she is out of order. and his wife has gone before the

court and told them that they were having an affair. they had an affair before and that is how he got the job. at the end of the day, i do not know how people keep playing the race card but it is so unbelievably tiring. it is so draining that every single thing has to come down to the race card. trump is a racist, but they ignore the fact that biden is a segregationist. he voted for segregation and did not want kids going to a racial double -- jumble and biden called blackman bullies and they are overlooking that. it has been so annoying. my fourth point is biden's competency or lack thereof. i am not saying anything about biden being old, he is senile. and why they cannot see it for

what it is, it is what it is. at 80 something, -- host: janice you made your point and you are breaking up so we have to go at that. i also want to let you know about another hearing happening about vaccine safety. many of you might be interested in that. we will have live coverage at 10:00 a.m. eastern time on c-span3, c-span now or c-span.org. this is the select subcommittee on the coronavirus pandemic who are having a hearing on vaccine and vaccine safety. coming up on washington journal, we will turn our attention to the rising cost of prescription drugs. we will take a break and when we come back we will take your questions and comments on that. stay with us. ♪ >> sunday on q&a, virginia's

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wherever you are. because the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span, powered by cable. >> washington journal continues. host: joining us this morning is gerard anderson at the johns hopkins bloomberg school of public health, a professor there. he is here to talk about the rising cost of prescription drugs. how much had prescription drugs costs gone up in recent years? guest: about three to four times faster than inflation and they keep rising. do not seem to have any way to slow them down. host: why do they keep rising? guest: a number of reasons, but the brand-name drugs which is the ones that you hear about all the time represent 80% of the spending. and they have a patent and market exclusivity. they essentially have a government run monopoly so they

can charge whatever they want. and if a for-profit company can charge whatever they want, they will charge whatever they want. and they do. there is a whole group of people who are trying to buy drugs and everybody has a different system. unlike other countries which have one system to buy drugs, we have one million systems. medicare has a system, medicaid has a different one. private insurance has many different sinners -- systems and there are many pvm's that are buying. it is very complicated. host: it is a washington alphabet soup, ebm what does it mean? guest: the ones who buy drugs on your behalf and establish the formularies used to buy drugs for you if you have medicare or medicaid, if you have private insurance. host: what role are they

playing? guest: they make it harder for you to pay for the drugs. this is going to get a little wonky but i will try to make it simple. so the pbm, the pharmacy benefit managers wants to show the medicare program and the private insurance that they are doing a good job. so they say we will give you a big discount over what the list price is. so list price is the price that the drug company sets. and then the pbm gets a bigger discount on that. but, the larger the list price the greater the discount appears to be, so every time the drug company raises the list price you the consumer pay higher price because your cost-sharing your amounts that you have to pay when you go to the pharmacy

which is dependent on the list price. so every time the drug company raises the list price end up paying more. there are some drugs that where you pay more than the pharmacy gets for the drug because the way that the cost-sharing works. host: explained that a little bit more. they are trying to make up with they are living with the -- losing with the pbm. guest: no, they are trying to show off that essentially that they raised the price and therefore everybody else is going to get -- they the pbm are getting a deal. if you look at what you get from the pbm or insurer, they say the list prices here, and you paid only this and you say i got a great deal. the problem is that the list price determines what you actually paid. host: so, what is congress doing

or thinking about doing about these middleman? guest: the middlemen, there are a number of different kinds. pbm's are one. group purchasing organizations are another. and they are trying to rein in the costs. really the most important thing is they do not keep raising the list price, the price that determines what you or i have to pay. host: how do they do that? guest: they will essentially say something like and it is not clear exactly how it will work in the final bill. they will say something like you cannot take all of these discounts. you have to have a price. so there is no incentive for the drug companies to raise the list price. host: you said that in other countries there is one system. explain the system and how it is different. guest: it varies a little bit from country to country. but what happens is that the government says we are willing

to pay a certain amount of money for a drug. the drug company then says do i want to sell it for that price or not? and if they are willing to sell it for that price then everybody in that country gets it. if they are not willing to sell it for that price, sometimes that drug is not available in that country. in almost every case the drug is available because the marginal cost of manufacturing a drug is really small. and so you will wake money even though -- you will make money even though a drug in the united states cost $10,000 it will only cost a few hundred dollars to manufacture. so you can sell it in france for $1000 and still make a lot of money. guest: when that happens what hot -- what happens to the cost of the same drug in the united dates. france says we will sell it for 1000 year, happens in the united states? guest: not much.

in every country the people from pfizer or whatever are trying to maximize the amount of money. if you are the representative for pfizer and you said to your ceo, you made so much money in the united states that we would actually -- we do not may -- we do not need so much money in france he would get fired. so, you basically have to manufacture and sell as much as you can for each drug in each country. each country is trying to maximize its profit in every single country. host: is the discrepancy such as large as you said that it can cost $10,000 in the united states and $1000 in france. guest: we did a paper, the average amount is four times but there are some drugs 100 times

more expensive, and there are some that are only 20% more expensive. it varies from drug to drug. host: you said there does not appear to be a way to slow down the rise of prescription drugs, why not? guest: because everybody is doing their own thing. medicare is doing one thing, medicaid is doing something separate. private insurance is doing a third thing. and you know the drug companies know that and the drug companies have these patents, so they are able to charge what they are wanting to charge. host: we are taking your questions and comments. how you join the conversation, the eastern central part of the country, 202-748-8000. mountain pacific, 202-748-8001. text us and include your first name city and state, 202-748-8003. post on x or go to

facebook.com/c-span. you also serve on the maryland drug affordability board, is not a way to control the cost of prescription drugs. how do you do your job? guest: there are five members and i am appointed by the attorney general what other people like the senate or the governor. and my responsibility is to look for marylanders and the price that they pay and for certain drugs set upper limits, the maximum amount that somebody in maryland should pay. we have gone through the process of doing all of our regulations and starting in the march meeting we will be setting rates for specific drugs and we will be starting that process. host: how will that help maryland residents? will they see a big difference? guest: we hope so.

until we actually do it and figure out how to work through the system we do not know. we know that many drugs are very overpriced and it is because these pharmacy benefit managers cannot negotiate. they can negotiate relatively effectively if there are a couple of drugs on the market that do the same thing. they can do one off against another. if there is only one drug out there and they cannot lay off one drug against another. they have to pay whatever the company wants to pay. we want to take a look at that and see what other countries charge for this, what does canada charge and try to figure out if there is a way to lower the price. we know the value of the drug, we then have to figure out whether or not we can charge them. and have marylanders pay a lot less. host: is this affordability board new and do other states

have one? guest: it is new and maryland is the first state to do that but a number of states have followed up. colorado is doing it, vermont is doing it. a number of states have these boards and a number of which are able to set rates. others are only able to advise others what to do. it is a wide range of responsibilities. but we are able to actually set rates. host: the front page of the wall street journal, drug shortages trigger probes into the agency players. "the fcc is exploring whether companies for -- that broker companies for hospitals along with the middlemen have misused their power to push down drugs for so much that some manufacturers cannot profit and have stopped production causing shortages." is this related? guest: it is.

it is a little more complicated so let me try to set it up. most of the drugs we get the united states, especially the generic drugs which represent 90% of the ones that we make, though raw materials come from china and india. and we are dependent on china and india for the raw materials for these drugs. and that is a problem. and then the way the system is set up, everybody is looking to buy the cheapest or in eric drugs. there are often three to five different direct -- and eric drugs. they have the same active ingredient and the same thing. they might have different other components, but have -- but they have exactly the same thing. if you have a middleman you will be -- will compete and buy the cheapest one. that means increasingly the generic manufacturers are having trouble manufacturing those drugs.

and if one of them goes out of business we have a shortage of drugs. host: let us get to the calls. henry in virginia. good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to talk about the price increase. my wife takes a drug and she cannot take the generic medicine. and i just went to walgreens and we paid 406 e2 dollars every -- $462 every month for that drug. i do not know why it was set so high, it was almost $800 without the discount. i cannot understand how they would price increase when the people who needed are on fixed income. china and india we get raw materials from them.

who is watching them? we have to get stuff from our enemies to put in our stomachs. they could kill all of us. better -- they are trying to get rid of us. host: we will take that. guest: let us start with the second one, who is watching them? to some extent the federal food and drug administration is watching them. but it is harder to watch a country outside the u.s. than inside. congress is looking at this and we have testified last week on this particular issues in the ways and means committee. people are aware and there is a concern about we should have more buy in america types of activities much like chips and other things. we are worried about that. host: computer chips? guest: correct. so that is it. in terms of a cost of a particular drug, every drug is raising its prices. in january, 500 drugs raise

their prices and that will happen again in july. and in every other country, prices go down once the drug is launched, the first time it occurs in the united states. in the united states the price continues to go up because we do not have the ability to say no. host: what other areas or triggers are there to rising costs of health care that are different in other countries? do not see that happening in other countries? guest: what you see in other countries is one side of the table is all of the providers and they negotiate with either the government or the health insurers collectively. and so you decide how much you are willing to pay and the government says we are only able to pay this amount or the insurers stay -- the insurers say that.

the united states every single doctor and hospital are negotiating separately with every single insurer so nobody has any power. and what is happening in the united states is that hospitals are merging, hospitals and doctors are merging. and what happens is that they have a lot of power because if you essentially want to have in your network your availability to get to that doctor, to that hospital, the hospitals know that. and so they all merge. and so the insurance company or medicare program has to pay more for those types of hospitals. they are all merging and that does not happen in other countries. they are not allowed to merge and do this activity. you have a virtual monopoly in many communities where there are only one or two health systems that run the community. host: how does that impact costs? guest: because if you run the

system you can say to the insurance company if you do not want to participate with me i will make it all out-of-network prices, it is much more expensive so every ensure says no, i want johns hopkins and i am willing to pay whatever they want so they are in the network because no insurer in baltimore can sell insurance without johns hopkins. host: and then that increased cost goes to the consumer how? guest: in two ways. one is that you pay higher health insurance premiums. second of all you will pay higher cost-sharing when you go to the doctor or hospital. you will just pay more. host: george from louisville, kentucky. let us hear from you. caller: ronald reagan -- i was no fan of him at all.

but the market is not the solution. the market is the problem. an incorporated charter has a legal obligation to maximize profit, at the hippocratic oath of do no harm, they are in opposition. if someone has a health condition that they can treat in six weeks or months but can be in your pocket longer and you have 100,000 people in the conviction -- and the condition they would have a legal obligation to go with makes the most money. and we have this crowd out there that say people who want free stuff as opposed to freedom. and they listen to the demagoguery instead of sense. we have to get some of that profit and motive. and i am about over drug ads on tv trying to make the others look like a broadway musical when we are literally playing with life and death.

some of these need to be a public and less than a private good. thank you. guest: thank you. it is a problem that so much of health care has become for-profit or very close to. when i got into the industry 40 years ago that was not a common occurrence. the hospitals and insurance companies were all nonprofit. now many of them are for-profit or behave like that. it is a very different world and i agree with you. i am interested in your comment on the issue of what the drug ads look at on tv. we wrote a paper two years ago looking at what drugs are being advertised on tv. what we found is that the drugs that were less good where the ones being advertised. and if you think about it that makes sense. the doctor will give you what he

considers or she considers the best drug and may be the most cost-effective drug. on the other hand, if you go into your doctor because you have seen an ad on tv and say but i want this drug, many times the doctor is going to give it to you even though it is less good and probably more expensive. host: how do you define less good? guest: there are a number of ways to do it, but it is called quality adjusted life years and we look at how effective it is. how much does it keep you alive or how much does it keep you from being ill. we can measure those things for specific drugs through clinical trials. and we can find out whether drug a is better than drug b in terms of how long will you live and how are you going to feel and what are your side effects. host: do doctors get lobbied on what drugs should they prescribe and what is the rules -- what

are the rules governing that interaction? guest: they do. there is a thing called open source, which medicare and medicaid proposed which shows you how much money your doctor gets from the pharmaceutical industry. sometimes it is going to a conference. sometimes it is actually getting paid to talk at a conference. so you know, what you should do is look up this if you want to in medicare and medicaid and cms and see if your doctor is actually getting money from the pharmaceutical industry. host: we are talking about the rising cost of prescription drugs. according to the health and human services adminisatn, over the period from jenny j -- january 2022 to 2023, more than 4200 drug products or increases -- had price increases

, some of which were larger than inflation. the average was 15.2% which translates to $590 per drug product. eva, california. that morning to you. caller: good morning. host: question or comment? caller: i was in europe this summer and i sometimes have some problems with my leg. i saw a doctor and he prescribed medicine. for 56 pills it cost me 14.5 euros. when i came here i asked the pharmacy and they wanted $700 and i could not believe it. and the doctor in my country and i said what do iou? and he said you are on vacation,

best of love, take care. my experience here, the doctors they do not see you like a patient. they see you how much money they can do, they are going to give you sickness with medication to keep getting money from insurance and medicare. and we give them the money to do the service and they are corrupted. that is the biggest problem that we have in this country. host: gerard anderson. guest: so, the idea that 14.5 euros or about $16 is in one country and $700 is another country is just outrageous. and we need to deal with that particular issue. you know, there are certain parts of the u.s. health care system where the doctor has an

incentive to give you the more expensive drug, it is in medicare part b, which is the physician part of the medicare program. and if you get the more expensive drug, the doctor gets 6% of the cost of the drug. if there are two drugs, one that costs $100 and then you get six dollars from the doctor and another drug costs $1000 and he gets $60 as the doctor. we have built an incentive into the system to do the more expensive drugs. host: here is one of our viewers. "ea ask the guest to explain how big pharma exploits the patent system by making minor changes to the formula and keeping generics off of market." guest: humira was the best-selling drug in the united states. it had literally hundreds of

different patents on it. so you get a patent, typically for 20 years. you -- it is when you start developing the drug. it is not when you start selling, but when you start developing. and so typically the patent lasts 10 or eight years or something like that. but if you have a drug which is a blockbuster like humira, you do not want to lose the patent. so you develop a patent on a different way to dispense it. or something like that. and then no generic company can enter the market. because they are supposed to wait until the patent ends. there are certain ways that you can get around that. but the drug companies know this and the generic companies get good deals not to enter the

market. they are allowed to pay the generic companies money not to enter the market. there are a lot of ways that you would think the drug should be available as a generic relatively quickly. but, because of the games played between the brands and the generics, that is not available. host: beverly in mount airy, north carolina. caller: hello and thank you for having me. i just think this is an interesting conversation, especially the conversations that precluded this. so we are focused on either party that you want to look at. we are focused on issues that they tell us to focus on where they should become a priority, instead of watching the bickering between the two parties. because both parties have their downfalls, pros and cons. but this right here is such a

public interest that affects everyone that votes. and why we are not calling our public leaders to focus on this issue, i really do not understand. and i think any ideas coming forth that allow the voter to step in righ -- write to their representatives and bring the issue up, any advice would be great. guest: that is a very important point. as i mentioned earlier i am on the maryland drug affordability board and we are doing outreach in maryland to try to figure out which drugs are particularly onerous for the maryland population. so we have a whole outreach program to maryland residents to try and figure out what are the drugs that are particularly problematic. we have legislation to deal with that, and now we really do need your help to tell us which drugs

are the most challenging for you. host: is congress focusing on this issue? guest: the inflation reduction act had a very strong provision in the legislation to allow medicare to negotiate drug prices for the first 10 drugs, which represent 20% of drug spending. that is a big number and that is ongoing. there is legislation pending about pbm's, and that will probably pass you never know on these things. so, there is a lot of things going on. i think we will take a little bit of a pause in this because we have to figure out whether or not the inflation reduction act is really going to work and bring down prices or not. there is also some concerns that the drug companies have challenge this in court. and so, whether or not it

actually even occurs is probably -- it probably will, but you never know. host: our guest this morning has referred to pbm's, pharmacy benefits managers. put that into our search engine on c-span.org and you will see your -- you will see the hearings that we have covered on the role that this group is playing in the cost of prescription drugs. at a senate hearing last week this was the topic. here is exchange between chris murphy, questioning bristol-myers squibb ceo about some choices that users of drugs have to make do to cost. [end video clip] -- [video clip] >> you talked about the united states that it has a health-care system that emphasizes the role of patient choice. let me present you with the case of one of my constituents and ask you about the choices that she faces. i have a constituent that needs

alquist, a blood thinner critical to her survival. she has priced a medicare plan that gets her the best possible price. and that price is $350 a month. the average social security benefits in connecticut is about $1700 a month and somebody who is on this is likely on other drugs as well. here is her choice. her choice is to pay the $350 and go without food or pay her rent late. or not take the drug and risk heart attack or stroke. is that the choice you are talking about when you refer to a health care system that prioritizes the important role of choice? >> senator, absolutely not.

in fact i would say on behalf of all of our employees that is a choice no patient should have to make. >> but she makes it. she makes it because you have chosen to price the drug at a point that is unaffordable. >> senator, we have priced alquist in the u.s. in our estimation, we try to do that with all of our medicines consistent with the value it brings and we are very happy with the fact that it is the leading anti-stroke drug. >> you put $8 billion into stock buybacks. why not do $4 billion and take the rest of the money and bring the price of the drug down? [end video clip] host: he says instead of putting in stock buybacks, put it towards bringing the cost down. is there any effort on that? why would he even bring that up as an option? guest: first of all it is clear why the senator brought it up,

you have a person in his state which cannot afford a drug that is very expensive that is much less expensive in france, germany, or wherever. what can we do? in the inflation reduction act, medicare can negotiate prices. one of the drugs they are negotiating is alquist. hopefully they will be able to bring the price down to a very high number to a much lower number. that is what is going on right now at cms and between them and bristol-myers squibb, the manufacturer. you know, hopefully in a year we will have an answer where this woman will be actually to afford her eloquence. host: steve, silver spring, maryland. caller: thank you for having me. this is very interesting for me. i am a pharmacist and i own an independent pharmacy.

prior to january of this year, i was purchasing a critical medication for patients. i believe the representative knows well. a supply that i was buying for a patient was costing -- was costing me over $2000. and their insurance would give $250 for a patient with zero co-pay. as of january i am purchasing with the same cries -- at the same price, less than what it was purchasing and then the patient was getting it for $10. where is difference going? guest: i do not know the specifics of your particular case but what we see is independent pharmacists are having more difficulty affording

the drugs and are starting to lose money. this happens in rural communities and inner-city communities. part of it is take a company like cvs. they do not want you to actually survive an independent pharmacists. but cvs is the pbm,, they are the ones who are setting the rates that you get paid. so, they have the ability to essentially drive you out of business. and that is what we are seeing in a number of cases. host: steve are you still there. your reaction. guest: that is the problem, that is where they went wrong to allow cvs and walgreens to purchase those insurance companies to monopolize the business so the ordinary man on the street, which means the patients that cannot go to cvs and wait for the lines and wait for an hour to come to us.

so cvs purchased all of these insurance companies monopolize the business. so as we will be closing because of that inflation because we cannot survive, the ordinary man on the street will be suffering. the government has to do something about that. host: and layered on top of th is this from cnn. "cvs closes 240 fours between 2018 and 2020 and said t wase ather 900 locations. 201walgreens that it would close 200 stores. this year it announced additional 100 -- 150 closur rite aid will shutter it stores as part of restructuring efforts with more closures to come." where will people get prescription drugs? guest: they will get more and more difficulty. in the city i am not so worried because there will be a cvs. but if i am out in rural kansas

and they shut down the pharmacy, it might be the only pharmacy within 20 to 40 miles. that is a long way to go within your prescription drugs especially if you need to do it. a lot of the companies are doing mail order now, and they can make more money on mail order and they can having a brick-and-mortar store because amazon will deliver it. and so you do not have to have a store. so, if the story is not making money they will close it. and that is what you are saying. as the caller said, he is losing money filling a prescription. so he will unfortunately have to go out of business. and then, that particular pharmacy is not to be available to us. silver spring's as we know is right in the d.c. area. unfortunately, they will probably be a cvs nearby.

a person will have to wait longer. host: san francisco, california. we want to hear from you. a quick question. caller: yes. if i get the generic version of my prescription it is $20. when i get the name brand it is over $300. and i have a good job but if i did not have access to generational wealth that i would not be able to get my medication. and the government should be revoking patents and making these medications at really low cost. and it is unacceptable that this is the situation. and yes. free palestine. guest: so, i totally understand that. what i think it is good is that there is a generic available at $20 to you. and then you have the choice of the 300 dollar brand or the $20 generic.

so, that is the goal. to have the branded get some money so they can engage in innovation, after a short period of time, the drug becomes generic and it becomes more affordable to all of us. host: a quick update for all of you in the case against the former president in new york, the judge in that manhattan criminal case has set a trial date. it will begin on march 25. this is breaking news this morning and we wanted to give you that up date. gerard anderson, what would you tell people on where to go to keep on top of regulations and changes that could occur in the coming weeks or months that would impact the cost of rising prescription drugs? guest: two things. the first thing, what is

medicare and medicaid doing in the negotiation. that is ongoing by late spring early summer. we will have a sense of where the 10 drugs, what is the price and you will see if we get on with a significant or marginal reduction and then we will start the process in the next year for 15 more drugs in the year after that. the hope is that we bring prices down to international standards. the other part of it is the pbm legislation running through the system right now and the question is do we have enough political power or political will to overcome the industry and their ability to earn substantial profits. and as one of the caller said. they are all interrelated. the insurance company, pbm, and

pharmacy are all interrelated where the federal trade commission could, involved in breaking up some of the monopoly is. host: pharmacy benefit managers, why do you say that they are powerful? guest: because three of them control 90% of the business. if any of them control it. so if you are selling a drug you have to sell it to one of these three companies. host: gerard anderson is a professor of the bloomberg school of public health, we appreciate the conversation. the house is about to gavel in. live coverage here on c-span. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2024] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]