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voice by going to our website, c-span.org/campaign 2024, select the record your voice stabbed and recorded 32nd video telling us your issue and why. c-span's voices 2024, be a part of the conversation. ♪ >> "washington journal" continues.. host: joining us this morning to mark presidents day craig shirley, the author of a new book, the search for reagan, the appealing intellectual conservatism of ronald reagan. this is your fifth book on ronald reagan. quiet? -- why? guest: good question. i have to do something. i worked for reagan, i worked on the 1980 and 1984 campaign. i was a munchkin in washington in the 1980's. they always have respect and

deference for the american presidency. both democrats and republicans especially fdr, jfk, andrew jackson. there was a lot of things that were not true or being said about ronald reagan about aids and gays in warmongering. i've written a number of books for certain periods in his life, the 1976 election, the 1980 election, his post-presidency, the time between the 76 and 80 campaign which was important. i decided to write this because there are so many misstatements about ronald reagan. i wanted to explore and make people understand how intelligent this man was.

his old aid was a friend of mine, marty anderson. he had degrees from m.i.t. and various ivy league schools and was an intelligent man and he once told me that he rated reagan's iq at 175. reagan read one book per week. he wrote letters. probably the most prodigious letter writer in the history of the american presidency. he generated thousands of letters and also wrote his own speeches, he wrote the radio scripts, he wrote columns. he wrote several books. i consider that to be the true mark of an intellectual is the ability to write. with reagan in his early days,

he developed becoming a writer so this is an intelligent man and no book before has really highlighted his intelligence. host: you entitled this the search work reagan why? -- the search for reagan, why? guest: i did that on purpose. i wanted it to sound church hillian. it's the undiscovered ronald reagan, the undiscovered compassion, the unders -- undiscovered intellect ronald reagan. the american people believe he was a great president i believe that but i want them to also know how intelligent he was. host: peer is how you start the bo -- -- here is how you start the book --

explain. guest: there are several examples. in his opposition to salt ii being pushed by jimmy carter in 1970 and 1979. conservatives immediately opposed it. it was defeated in the senate by a democratic senate. he didn't dump all over carter right away per he wanted to study the proposal and learn more about it. he talked to all the arms-control experts and policy experts before he came out against it. he wanted to think about it before he actually took a position. it was a very measured man. many times in his life time at many points in his life, i can think of 1978 when there was a

proposal, proposition six in california which would have prohibited gays from teaching public schools. a lot of family groups and a lot of conservative groups supported it. it was supported by so-called conservative senator john brakes. reagan opposed it. he thought about it and he opposed it. he said this is an abomination, and infringement on frese -- on rights and free speech. he came out against it and he wrote against it. it was way ahead in the polls in the summer. by the fall of 1978, by november, it went to a crashing debate. many organizers and gay activists said it didn't pass because of ronald reagan.

he was not only an intelligent man but he was intellectually honest. host: when it came to his intellect, who or what shaped that conservative philosophy? guest: he didn't have any mentors. he had many people he went to for advice for learning and for education. i can think of jenker -- jane patrick who was his foreign policy advisor. she was a brilliant woman and she wrote an article in 1979. ronald reagan read the article and he was deeply impressed with it, with her mind and intelligence had brought her into the cabinet. he appointed her u.n. ambassador. all through his life, people at

general electric, ed meese was important. thank god he still with us. he was there with reagan even before reagan ran for governor in 1966. it was important for reagan's intellectual development and maturation. he always relied on ed meese at all times in his life through his governorship and presidential campaigns. he was white house counsel her of course and later attorney general. one of the greatest attorney general's in american history. he was always reagan's port in the storm. he always relied on ed meese. i can think of dozens of people that reagan deferred to but he didn't have any one person, he had many friends and associates and misses reagan was most important of all. she was his rock. she was his best friend. they met on a blind date in

1949i believe and they never stopped dating. they were on a date until he passed away in 2004. this is one of the great love stories of the american presidencies was the love they had for each other. i remember hugh spencer was a long time a who took reagan when he was governor in 1966 and took him to a train station to board the train to go up to san francisco or some place raise money in a campaign. misses reagan went with him to the train station and the two of them embraced and he said he never witnessed such remarkable love in his life. the two of them were just embracing and holding each other

, the allies passed and all this maelstrom around them and they were right there oblivious to everything, utterly in love with each other. host: was she a conservative? guest: yes, she was. she was measured. she didn't let her politics show too much but she always supported reagan and she supported his ideologies in politics and supported his reasoning and supported his speeches. she was never a first lady who meddled in public affairs. what she did say is i am the president's wife and i sleep next to him every night. with his ideology and his policies, she didn't interfere. she did get involved in personnel matters.

when she thought someone was hurting reagan, in the case of don regan who was reagan's next to last chief of staff who was, he has passed away, he was -- he didn't fit. reagan was not being helped by don regan. she told the president, she said you have to fire him. he's not helping you. he eventually did fire don regan and howard baker, a very kind and courtly former senator from tennessee came in as reagan's last chief of staff and really did a lot to nail things down at the white house. he is really an underappreciated figure of american history.

not for his time in the u.s. senate but his time is ronald reagan's chief of staff. host: we are talking to presidential historian craig shirley marking president's day, talking about president reagan. you can join the -- the conversation by dialing in as a republican c-span.org, (202) 748-8001, democrat (202) 748-8000 or independent (202) 748-8002 you can text us as well (202) 748-8003. carl is up first in tennessee, democratic caller. caller: good morning. i just want to say this. why are we stuck still on history that's already been made? are you there? host: we are listening. guest: we are listening. caller: you are doing a good job with your book but we are stuck on history. reagan did his part when he was

here. i was young at the time when reagan was president. the thing about it is we got to get out of the past. got to get out of the past. reagan did a good job so continue to do your book but make sure people get out of the past and get into the present. host: what can we learn from the past? guest: thank. carl's right, you shouldn't have it either or. the great harvard historian said those who fail to study are doomed to repeat it and we for that phrase many times. that is why we study history. like carl said unlike ronald reagan believed is we need to focus on the future. the president who runs whether

it's franklin roosevelt or john f. kennedy or ronald reagan and talk about the future, the usually won the presidency. carl is right. we need to focus -- i would -- i wouldn't say split the baby but we need to focus on the past so we don't make them same mistakes in the future. we also need to focus on the future because we are uniquely american. until recently, i've always believed the future would be better for children than it had been for us. i remember when i was once young as well. host: yesterday on meet the press, the daughter of ronald reagan said her father would be appalled by today's politics, let's listen. [video clip] >> it was more civilized. he didn't understand lack of civility. he didn't understand attacking

another person. he could be pretty pointed in what he would say about someone else but he didn't understand cruelty and that's what we are dealing with now. i think he wouldn't understand that and i think he would be really scared for our democracy. i think that -- i don't -- i think he would address people more than any candidates. i think he would address the american people at what has divided us. in my own opinion, i don't know, this is probably how he would think. our divisions really started because we are also scared. there is so much fear around whether we will get shot in a mass shooting or our children

are or you walk into a store, is -- or a church or whatever. we are scared and fear feeds into anger. it's not sustainable. we don't want to be afraid. there are people on the public stage in the political front to understand very well that synergy between fear and anger and who are masterful at exploiting it. host: craig shirley? guest: i want to be careful here. she is the president's daughter. a lot of what she said i think his rhetoric. it's hard to decipher what she said. i agree with her about people being angry and scared. she said people are scared but there also scared because the border is out of control and they are scared because inflation is out of control and scared because they don't feel

confident about the future in the country and they feel things are spinning out of control under this presidency. i agree with her that reagan didn't understand cruelty. partisanship and harsh partisanship has always been a part of american politics, always been a part of the american presidency. in the election of 1800, supporters of john adams editorialized. they said thomas jefferson was a political hermaphrodite. he had the strength of the men in the softness of a woman. things that were said about abraham lincoln, awful things were said about him. awful things have been said about many other presidents. in fact, all present and all candidates. partisanship, harsh partisanship --

why we study history is too many people forget the past and how things were in the past. people say things were more genteel in the past but things are also nastier in the past. i agree with her but i also have to take it with a grain of salt because she is a career leftist and she is very liberal and is a child of ronald reagan. she did try to lobby him when he was president to be more tempered on issues. host you say -- what do you mean? guest: he started out, used to say i wasn't just a left-wing democrat but a hemophiliac

liberal. he voted for frank than roosevelt four times starting in 1932. he campaigned for truman in 1948. he campaigned against richard nixon when he was battling for the u.s. senate in california. he said he didn't even change parties until the early 1960's when he was older. as a republican 1980, he had been a democrat longer than he had been a republican. a lot of the issues, test cuts for the individual and national defense and pro-life and all these other issues, he didn't really arrive at those until a journey of discovery until his 40's. he didn't run to governor until

he was 55. sci is a good example. no president has ever oppose this. the policy had been mutually assured discussed -- destruction. the soviets had 40,000 nuclear bombs and we had nuclear weapons and of one launch the other would launch. it led to the containment policies of harry truman and dwight eisenhower and john kennedy which later evolved under nixon and ford and carter. it was always an acceptance the permanence of the soviet union and the berlin wall. some presence that we are not going to coexist with the soviets. we will beat them.

they say we have superior technology and superior economy and we will develop the strategic defense initiatives we can shoot down soviet missiles before they get to the united states. the soviets were terrified because they knew american technology could produce that type of defensive shield which is being used today in israel to not down missiles aimed at them. onsdi and détente and summary issues, he only develop them after he was 40 years old. host: emily and saint perrysburg, florida, good morning. caller: good morben. i was going to say hello but

somebody already said it. i just wanted to address the aids crisis. i had an uncle that died in the aids crisis and he was delivered to my grandmother in a cardboard box. i would like to hear your thoughts about how you don't blame this on reagan's legacy. guest: i'm glad you asked that question. i'm very sorry for your loss. i have also lost friends because of aids. some of reagan's political policies over the years have's -- political opponents and spun the story that he didn't do anything about the aids crisis which is untrue. napoleon once said history is pack of lies agreed upon. this is a lie about ronald reagan. the aids crisis -- we thought it was only a fake -- afflicting

haitians and hemophiliacs and it only became to realize what it was about. in 1985, reagan was not only talk about the aids crisis in a union address in 1985 but he put millions of dollars into aids research and he and mrs. reagan did a lot of work for the aids pediatric foundation. the actor paul glassner, his wife tragically died of aids through blood transfusion. one of the first people that he heard from was the reagan's reaching out to him expressing their compassion and sorrow in their prayers for he and his wife. the idea that reagan was insensitive to this issue, to the scourge of aids was untrue.

it was a bully pulpit but he committed millions of dollars to research. host: cincinnati is next, democratic caller. caller: good morning and thanks for c-span. i have an opinion of ronald reagan that a lot of people have. i think president reagan really is responsible for a lot of what's going on today. the dog whistles that he used as far as racist concerns i think now have become a bullhorn for what's going on in politics today. i just feel that had that been addressed back then when he was president, we would not have fallen into this situation we are in today. the same rhetoric of make america great again that trump

uses, ronald reagan used 40 years ago. also, i would hope the author would comment on the fact that james garner once said that ronald reagan really wasn't much of an intellectual at all, that he was president of the screen actors guild well james garner was the vice president and reagan basically did whatever they told him to do and he never had an original thought. at that, i will let the author response to what i've said and thank you for taking my call. guest: james garner who i liked is an active very much [indiscernible] i thought he was a terrific actor but he was very liberal. reagan was a very successful president of the screen actors guild. he was elected six times. he did have original thoughts. one of them was that the issue

of residuals. before reagan became the president of the screen actors guild, actors and actresses in hollywood would be paid once for appearances and then they got no money from the studios. the studios rebroadcast a movie or a tv show featuring the actors and actresses and would make lots of money and never pay again the actors or actresses. the actors were upset about this and said you can't keep using make image without paying me and reagan took up the issue of residuals for actors and actresses. i do deal with this in my book. he got the actors and actresses and the studios to pay them each time they use their image. there are lots of old actors and

actresses out there who still get money from their old movies and old tv shows beyond the one appearance for every time the do this. they have ronald reagan to thank for their comfort in their old age. it's a radical thing. it was an original thought and it was a very successful effort by reagan to force the studios to compensate fairly actors and actresses. host: here's a question from acts -- x - guest: the phrase make america great again was one of ronald reagan's campaign slogans in 1980. i have a political button, make

america great again. i don't see why that should be so offensive. don't we all want america to be great again and more prosperous again and safer again? i don't see why it's so contentious. host: another viewer on x - guest: untrue. the average american household [indiscernible] at the end of his presidency, you found 25% more of your money. that's a lot of money. the number of wealthy created in america and more people paid [indiscernible]

in 1980, we had 400,000 millionaires in america and by the time he left, we had 34,000. the american economy by leaps and bounds in his presidency. he created 20 million new jobs, the unemployment rate under reagan came to 4.5%. inflation, the scourge of the american economy which has gone out of control under jimmy carter by 1980 was something like 16%. by the time the end of reagan's presidency, it was down to two or three or 4%. he controlled oil and this is a significant accomplishment. by controlling oil, gasoline in 1981 was a dollar 75 a gallon.

he got oil under control in it was something like $.79 a gallon. in every measurable way, interest rates. it was 21%. when he left office, it was down to 3.544%, i'm sorry, 7%. still a 200% reduction in the interest rate. by every measurable way, reagan improved the lifestyle of americans. he also expanded welfare payments, aids research, all those things to the less fortunate. host: david in san francisco, independent. caller: i almost disagree with everything this guy has said including his so-called facts. regarding the interest rates, jimmy carter, got so bit under

jimmy carter that it got up to 22%. the usury rates, interest rates that were against the law to charge, the usury rates in almost every state in the nation were 7%. for you to say that reagan was great because he got it down to 7%? that's an illegal rate. he was devastating to america. the bigger picture question i would like to ask is whether or not he believed in the social contract, whether or not he had a duty to serve the public or whether he had a desire to serve the super. -- to serve the super rich. i'm reminded of the issue -- i'm losing my train of thought -- host: we will take your last

point. craig shirley? guest: i'm not sure where to start. he didn't articulate. this guy doesn't like reagan. it doesn't like my facts supporting ronald reagan. i don't know where to go with that except that the interest rate came down from 22% under jimmy carter to 7% under ronald reagan. this just a hard fact and anybody can look it up. john adams made a reference to taxes not being negotiable. you shouldn't try to dispute facts. host: you write in the book --

how did he become an optimist? guest: i forgotten how well-written that was. he was just a naturally optimistic individual. his optimism bubbled out of his soul. i've studied reagan his entire life and childhood and his radio years in his presidency and i don't recall a time, maybe once where he was really depressed. i remember after the 1976 when he lost narrowly to gerald ford,

he was sad about that. i point to a lot of instances where maybe it was stolen from him with the shenanigans with new jersey and the illinois delegates. he lost so narrowly to gerald ford. if you look at so many of his things, used to say that you don't compromise principles but compromise in terms of getting things done. as governor, he learned to compromise like an welfare reform. he took a lot of deadbeats off of the roles but also increased welfare payments for the truly needy while saving california billions of dollars. the tax cut bill which was

so-called economics, he called for 33% tax reduction. he compromised at 27%. he believedd you compromised within go back to get what you want. in case after case, he compromised but he compromised to his advantage. host: here is another viewer in a text. guest: reagan's compassion got the better of him. he saw the dictates of terrorists murdering american hostages. he tried to make it deal with the iranians. he made a mistake with it.

it was a mistake out of compassion. it wasn't a mistake -- nobody made money or nobody gain power or anything. he got bad advice. i wouldn't say it was a good idea but it was a good idea that went awry. fighting communism is a good idea. trying to negotiate with terrorists in iran was not necessarily a good idea. fortunately, reagan courageously and manfully and truthfully and endearingly went on national television and bit the bullet. he said this happen on my watch and it's my mistake and i take the blame for it. it ended up because he was so

forthright and set up the tower commission which was chaired by senator john tower of texas. they were charged with getting as many details as possible and issued a very harsh report on the mistakes of the reagan administration involved in iran-contra buddy took the blame. is it will mistake -- it was a mistake made out of compassion. host: let's go to his reelection campaign. this is his second debate in the issue of aids and mental fitness comes up. [video clip] >> i want to raise an issue that i think has been lurking out there for two or three weeks. you already are the oldest president in history and some of your staff say you were tired after your most recent encounter with mr. mondale. i recall that president kennedy had to go for days on end with very little sleep during the

cuban missile crisis. is there any doubt in your mind that you would be able to function in such circumstances? >> not all. -- not at all. i will not make age an issue of this campaign. i'm not going to exploit for political purposes my opponent's youth and inexperience. [laughter] [applause] if i still have time, i might add that it was seneca or cicero that said if it was not for the elders correcting the mistakes of the young, there would be no state. host: that line there, what do you make of it? what does it say about his intellect? guest: this is an extremely

intelligent man. the ultimate put down. the elegance of it, the fact that it was 1980. the elegant put down, there you go again. getting capital -- and encapsulates everything that was wrong about carter and what they were saying about reagan all summed up in one sentence. there you go again. the age issue, he banished it. i remember in the 1970's when it seemed like the presidency was getting out of control, we suffered through 17 long horrible years from the beginning of the assassination of jfk. we've gone through nixon's presidency and resignation and

the egg noble humiliation of watergate -- the ignoble humor lesion of watergate and gas lines and pet rocks in ford's presidency which i think historians are still trying to evaluate fully. cartersville presidency by common agreement. from 1963-1980 so i remember the presidency was too big for any one man. we needed a president to handle domestic policy and then one for foreign policy. reagan was elected in 1980 and all that talk was gone. it was banished. one man can be a successful president of the united states. he banished that handwringing. from the national agenda. as far as age, he always said is

humorous. putting down walter man u -- walter mondale's youth and inexperience is the perfect response to the so-called age issue. he told reporters in 1980 campaign, if anybody had any doubts about him which he didn't have any doubts, he would submit to a mental acuity test if he needed to. he was tested every year for psychological testing and he passed with flying colors every year. this is a very well read and well spoken individual. the alzheimer's afflicted him, the onset didn't begin to affect him until six years after he left the presidency. host: not in his final years of his presidency?

guest: no, go to google and in december of 1988, he did a talk with the university of virginia law school and look at this man and you tell me this man is in complete control of his faculties and at the top of his game. the interplay with the students was terrific. he was quoting the constitution and the boundaries and the framers and his memory is terrific. also his farewell address that he gave in january of 1989. this is a man fully in control of himself. everybody i know from ed meese, jim baker, everybody on the white house staff that i knew well that new ronald reagan, everybody said that reagan was just as sharp on the day he left office in 1989 as the day he entered office in 1981. host: presidential historian craig shirley with his fifth book in reagan.

thank you for the conversation. guest: thank you very much and happy presidents' day. host: same to you. we will take a break and in 30 minutes, we will kick off her weeklong series on black history month with dr. joseph, founding director of the center for the study of race and democracy at the lbj school of public affairs at the universy of texas at austin. first, we are in open form after this break coming your chance to weigh in on any political or public policy topic on your mind this presidents' day. start dialing in, republicans (202) 748-8001, democrats (202) 748-8000 an independents (202) 748-8002. we will be right back. ♪

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host: we are back in open form this morning for about 30 minutes, any public policy or political issue undermines -- we start with presidents' day which is a federal holiday. this is from usa today -- on this presidents' day, you can tell us your favorite president. or any public policy or political issue. more from this article --

that is from usa today. colorado, independent. hi there. caller: good morgen. much like the people who spout the constitution without reading it and rewrite the history of the founding fathers, saying they started this country against taxation when it was really to steal land from indigenous people and inserts slaves to build every thing for them, it seems your previous guest wanted to rewrite the history ronald reagan and i am a child of the time of ronald reagan. we are still paying the price of

him injecting steroids into the capitalist system. the children of that era and the children now are still cleaning up the mess that ronald reagan made. we are the ones that have to continue to do so to the point that we are facing a human extension -- extinction event. it's amazing you want to rewrite this history and say ronald reagan was this amazing president who did these amazing things for the country when all he did was make it so that i will never own my own house, my children will never own their own houses, the corporations will. jeff bezos will own the house as we all live in. elon musk will control our media and control what you all put on the media. because you want to rewrite history and act like ronald reagan was an amazing president? host: you keep saying we we had

craig shirley on who gave us his viewpoints of the book that he wrote. karen in belfast, maine, democratic caller. caller: good morning and thank you for taking my call. on this presidents' day which is actually, i think it was joined at one point to recognize both washington and lincoln. i wanted to call folks attention to something they may not be familiar with and that is the writings of heather cox richardson. she does a daily letter called letters to an american. she is an historian and she teaches at boston college. her work is simply incredible. actually, it's just her letters which are available through email. she has a podcast that reads her letters every day.

i don't know if she's ever been on c-span. i would highly recommend it if you haven't. host: thank you for the suggestion. john in ventura, california, republican. caller: good morning, everybody. two things to say -- first of all about kamala harris , remembered the republicans passed hr2 which would close the border way better than the senate bill recently which kept the border open and cap people coming through. kamala harris could have supported hr2 but she didn't. the second point i want to make is more important. it was disturbing for me to hear that there was a toxic smog and all the stuff going into our atmosphere and polluting the world and the war itself in ukraine is nothing but endless pollution and endless fighting

and endless killing. it's time for joe biden to divide ukraine, give russia part of it, stop the war, give russians part of ukraine and give ukrainians part but they had to step in and stop the war and stop funding the war, stop killing people, stop polluting the world. you've got to divide ukraine up and and this madness. host: john is referring to the front page of the near times. -- of the new york times.

greensboro, north carolina, independent. caller: hello. i remember reagan. i was in the workforce when he was president. the air traffic controller strike that he struck down, host: we are listening. host: newark, new jersey, democratic caller, are you ready? caller: yes, i am. happy presidents' day. i made jersey boys so vote for

the only president to be married in the white house from jersey. i had a question and i would hope you would ask your following guest. about the daughters of confederacy, how they change the education system, i think it's important we discussed this because it's almost like people are living in two different worlds and until we talk about that, i feel we cannot get anywhere. it was forceful how they change the education. i think a lot of people don't know that and don't understand that. i think it's really important to talk about that. thank you and happy presidents' day. host: we are in open form and you can talk about presidents' day or public policy issues. republicans, (202) 748-8001, democrats (202) 748-8000 and independents (202) 748-8002.

you can also text us at (202) 748-8003. tim in illinois, republican. caller: hello. during the recent deep-freeze in the united states, if we had windmills, how many of them would have froze up and not delivered power? host: we will go to bruce in buffalo, new york, independent. caller: thank you. [indiscernible] i don't have a lot of time. host: i cannot hear you. you sound muffled. are you there? caller: can you hear me now? host: that's much better. caller: we don't have much time so the best president in -- in my lifetime is bill clinton. it was after he beat newt

gingrich on the government shutdown and they work together for a short time. other than that, that was fantastic, the great leaving statement he could make. the worst president isw and he is a criminal and should be in jail. i don't know much about millard fillmore or franklin pierce. he wasn't even nominated but his own party. happy presidents' day. we are faced with the worst choice of any electoral decision in my lifetime. goat nikki. host: pew research and august of 2023 did a poll about american views of presidents. republicans view reagan at the time the former president trump as the best recent presidents. as far as democrats, they found that around two thirds of young

democrats say that the former president barack obama is the and half or more democrats and all the -- in all age groups named obama as the best president younger democrats were likely to say this while 64% of black and asian democratic -- democrats named obama, smaller shares of white and hispanic democrats say that. what do you say this morning on this president's day? william and georgia. hello. caller: happy presidents' day. i believe reagan was the deadliest president ever. he tore down mental hospitals. he did it nationwide, and then he flooded our streets with crack cocaine.

republicans say that he was a great president, they are happy that he destroyed the black community. they are happy. i think now -- what you do will come back on you. now you see the pharmaceutical company flooding rural america in droves. what happened to us is happening to them. host: william in ohio. what is on your mind? caller: i think barack obama was one of the best presidents. donald trump was the worst. he still controls congress. thank you very much. host: now we go to akron, ohio. it is your turn. caller: this is my first time

calling. i have been watching for probably 10 to 20 years. i was calling about president trump. when he came in and did his first state of the union address, he talked about changing policy, the policy of the polls because he was trying to keep it where all these illegal immigrants could not come in. it was changed in 2007. a judge made it so that children were held for 21 days. that trickled down to mexico or wherever. people started hearing this about how did they get into america? well, when trump did this, he said, we need to change this

policy. they started calling him a racist, a democratic racist machine that the democratic party always does. if you do not agree with them, you are automatically a racist. trump came in right away trying to make policy to change immigration, but no one would listen to him. the democratic party racist machine could not have that. so then, people are coming in, as he was president, started implementing. if you read a few books out there, he did three things when he was president. you are not allowed to come into america unless you are allowed through asylum.

keeping the immigrants from coming in and the three country rule where you have to go into the first country that you are fleeing asylum from and you have to stay there. if you are being brutalized in your country, you are not going to go through three countries. the reason is that illegal immigrants are coming in is because joe biden opened up the border. it does not have anything to do with root causes. these people are working in jobs where they are at. it is all a big lie and peoples -- people need to start studying. host: thank you for calling in. we appreciate it. john in lancaster, pennsylvania.

caller: i want to address ronald reagan's presidency. i did not think he was not great of a president. the pennsylvania economy and the changes that he made to it, billy joel even wrote a song about it, about allentown. heavey -- he deregulated a lot in the industry. you have what he instituted. there was a lot of things that the average worker could benefit from. >> franklin, michigan. good morning. caller: good morning. you always do a great job and i enjoy this program. one guy called in but then

disconnected for some reason to say ronald reagan -- do you remember when he fired all the air traffic controllers? he was -- that was also. from there on, it was a hard time for union members. that was awful that he did that. no one mentioned that. he was not that great. host: got it. we are going to rockville, connecticut. hello, susan. caller: i am also calling about reagan. what i want to say is a little anecdotal, which is only so helpful. i was on the front lines and had just graduated college. i was doing social work. and at that time, people needed

help and all kinds of ways. we would refer them to the agency that could help them. people think i am a dinosaur, but we were just switching over freight to be on the computer. at the time we had a big book of social services. when reagan came into be president, that book just kept on shrinking and shrinking. mr. shirley said about getting people off the role, old people are eating dog and cat food. school lunches -- catch up with considered a vegetable for kids. he really started a for people to suffer. i have to tell you, greta, i actually had a nervous breakdown because i could not help people, and he made it so that i could not help people. host: susan there in connecticut. good morning. caller: yes.

i was calling because i feel like we need an independent to run for president. it would be nice if nikki haley would run independent. talking about presidents, i have to say that nixon saved my life. he got rid of the draft. i was up for vietnam that year. so i have to say nixon, he was a croak. host: amelia, independent. hello. caller: hello. i would say that the president of my lifetime was obama. he helped millions of people through insurance and everything. i just think he is the best. the worst, it is pretty obvious it is trump. all the people who defend trump, i have family and friends you

are always defending him, even the comment about him wanting to be a dictator. i had a discussion with somebody saying, he is just being sarcastic or he was just joking. i believe everything that man says. he is going to be a dictator. he is up there. these are things that really terrified me. i do not want to be called a communist or anything, but i do believe that poor people, when they are in trouble, we do not want socialism. that is all i have to say. thank you so much. host: you can find it on our website had of the primary. michigan gop appears.

early in person voting began in michigan, a fight to control the gop plunging republicans deeper into a political maelstrom with rival factions potentially barreling towards dueling nominating conventions. as if things were not already confusing. they will host a traditional primary and then a caucus style convention a few days later. there could be to be oaken convention's different parts of the state, each claiming legitimacy. as far as michigan's delegates, the state of the convention will be at stake. the other 16 will be decided during the primary which

includes nine days of early voting. this is in order to comply after moving up the primary date. grover and virginia. hello. good morning. we are listening to you. listen and talk through your phone. are you ready? we are in open form. caller: donald trump is the worst president we have ever had and probably will ever have. from the time he walked down that escalator, that is when all the trouble started. he could not steal enough on his own, so he brought his children into the white house, to help him steal. he could not even run his company in new york.

he has never been a mayor or anything of any city. how are you going to run the country come if you cannot even run a county. host: weevil go to donald in kalamazoo, michigan. republican caller. caller: there was some kind of interference on the line. i have a few things to say about presidents. it depends on how you feel about war, of course. world war ii was democrat. roosevelt and truman. another was democrat, truman. vietnam was jfk. what a mess that was. when he was president, we had the bay of pigs, the missile crisis and the start of the vietnam war. people think he is a great

president. then there was nixon. he was not a good man, but he did nothing to hurt our country, not one thing to hurt our country. carter? everybody knows about carter. that was not his fault. the democrat party did not want him to be president, so they did everything they could to make sure he would not get we elect. george bush? there was a war, but he did get saddam out of kuwait. but he did not start the war. the u.n. hired him to get saddam out of there. host: and george w. bush? caller: yes. george h debbie bush. host: i'm asking about george w. bush. we were going through the presidents and wars. caller: yes.

old man bush was in a war in iraq to kick citywalk -- to kick saddam out of kuwait. that was not a war that he started. the u.n. hired bush to do that, ok? host: hector in florida, independent. caller: yes. good day. a great program. i think the best president that we have had is our current president. when you look at president after president speaking about infrastructure, he is -- check the records on employment. look at the stock market. when you look at it, it is unbelievable that the man has accomplished so much with all of

the obstruction from the other party. check the record. you have the history on employment, the stock market, solving infrastructure. the interest on your credit cards was no longer tax-deductible. that was to be attracted, which affected a lot of poor people at the time. i mean, this man is not getting the praise that he should. this man is unbelievable. check the records. you have a lot of people calling in and telling lies. it is fantastic. host: you might be interested in this headline. under threat from a world in turmoil.

the war in the middle east poses a major risk. chaos threatens the supply chain. mary, democratic color. let's hear from you. caller: my humble opinion, i think about reagan when he was president. i was able to buy my first home. it was the highest rate i could remember. and the next president we talked about, good or bad, all presidents have challenges, but the one that scares me the most is donald trump because of the way he talks about everything. he puts a lot of fear people, especially at my age of 78 years old, i am afraid of what he will do when he becomes president because he has a much vengeance

to settle with people, and that is not good. that is my humble opinion. host: we believe it at that and take a break. after the break, we will be joined by the director. we will talk about the significance of black history month and his books on the lives and legacy of -- the life and legacy of martin luther king jr.. >> in the weeks that lie ahead, the famous and influential men and women will occupy the seats and will have a lot to say about his view of the society in which we live today. >> saturdays at 7:00 p.m. eastern, airing the 10 part series, free to choose, featuring milton friedman. he coproduced the series with his wife and fellow economists rose friedman, at it first aired

on public to -- television in 1980. they also wrote a book with the same name. the friedman advocate limited government intervention in the economy and and social politics. other topics include welfare, education, equality, tumor and worker protection and ration. watch free to choose on american history tv. for c-span's voices 2024, we are asking voters across the country, what issue is most important to you in this election and why? >> the most important issue is immigration. >> economics. >> i think that homelessness is an issue that needs to be addressed. >> we invite you to share your

voice. select the record your voice 10 and a video telling us your issue and why. c-span voices 2024. he a part of the conversation. -- be a part of the conversation. >> current, nonfiction book releases and bestseller lists. the top of industry news and trends through insider interviews. you can find it on c-span now, our free mobile app, or wherever you get your podcasts. >> washington journal continues. host: joining as to help us kick off the series on black history month, the director of the university of texas for a and democracy. you also wrote a book, the sword

and shield, the revolutionary lives of malcolm x and martin luther king jr.. tell us about the title. why did you explore these tbl men? guest: the title of elite refers to the way in popular culture that both of the men are depicted. malcolm x is depicted as this avenging sword of the black community, the embodiment of black rage. dr. king is depicted as th nonviolent person is america's apostle of nonviolence , the shield of the community. i think the argument is that they are both of those things. they are to be of sides of the revolutionary quite. malcolm x is not only america's political shield or political sword, he is also a human rights

shield, the prime minister and dignitary of the statesman. martin luther king jr. is not just the apostle of nonviolence. he is a political sword. he fought against the vietnam war. he comes to believe in the poor people's campaign that makes him very dangerous. the idea of the sword and the shield and to really juxtapose them and blend them to show that they are much more similar than we ever give them credit for. host: how did they influence each other? guest: malcolm x, when you think about it one word concept -- what did he achieve and what was he after? that word was dignity. dr. king, it was citizenship. malcolm x defines dignity as something that we are all born

with, god-given, are intrinsic humanity. citizenship is just external recognition of dignity. for many years, he disagreed with king because malcolm believed it was something that we had it, and why should we be marching and demonstrating for that which we already have. that is why malcolm was never a conventional separatist. he just did not want to organize through mobs. it is reasonable. king, his conception was citizenship. but he was going for was beyond the voting rights, beyond the civil rights act. what king wanted was a guaranteed income, a living wage all americans. he wanted the end of violence. the way in which they influence each other, over time, they come

to see that you need both. you need not just dignity but citizenship. and not just citizenship but dignity. he comes out once he leaves the nation in full support of voting rights for black people to organize around the ballot. he is still interested in self-defense. malcolm x never calls for violence, he is always interested in defending their own dignity and humanity. we see the convergence king becomes much more outspoken about the values of black lives. he becomes somebody saying not only black is beautiful, but he

becomes somebody who is criticizing white supremacy. king is not criticizing white people but white supremacy in the system and the ideology. the political belief system that allows for antiblack violence, that allows for racial segregation, police brutality. we start to see king as this real revolutionary, even though he is against violence. they both come to really influence each other, but malcolm x, his criticism of the vietnam war in 1964, his travel overseas to africa and europe -- he traveled to over 14 nations. malcolm became revolutionary. he became a muslim and had this foundational, islamic ethics, this idea of a moral center that also connected to a pan african

and third world revolutionary human rights agenda that will really impact dr. king. malcolm came out against the vietnam war before dr. king and malcolm is the biggest critic of american power, both institutional racism and imperialism, and what america was doing in the african congo, the congo crisis of 1964 where america backed the dictator who had helped the murder of the first democratically elected minister. the u.s. was on the wrong side of that battle and malcolm says that publicly, and by the end of 1964, different african leaders are having a debate in the u.n.

about the way that the u.s. is backing mercenaries through the hostage crisis. malcolm is constantly speaking about this. over time, we see dr. king stepping into the global context in a way where he is absolutely influenced by malcolm x because malcolm x becomes black america's prime minister and becomes a statesman who is talking about human rights, who is visiting and meeting with leaders and presidents, and kings and queens. and he was really forging those networks that transformed the civil rights movement. host: our conversation this morning, the legacy of malcolm x and martin luther king jr.. here is how you can join the

conversation. you can also text us including your first name, city and state by texting (202) 748-8003. you said one of the reasons why he wrote this book is because he did not want people to think that you had to be team malcolm or team martin. explain that mindset and where it came from. >> it comes from the fact that in a lot of ways, the legacies of both malcolm and martin, in certain ways, they have been hijacked by different groups of people. we look at martin luther king jr., his legacy has been hijacked. there was a huge movement in the 15 years after his assassination

in memphis, tennessee. everyone should check out the museum there. it was a huge movement to recognize them as a revolutionary against militarism, materialism, against racism. that was great, but we lost something in winning. what we did was, we drained him of his radical and revolutionary power. the new book by my friend jonathan is a great book to check out on this. but also, coretta scott king was a revolutionary with her power as well. after malcolm's assassination, what they tried to do was say that malcolm was a man of violence, a man who had been a

dope dealer and drug paddler, which is something that he admitted and he was considered unworthy of being a leader. it was like people, the everyday black folks in harlem and tanzania, and in mississippi, adding california saying no. and there were some white people and white radicals connected to the socialist workers party. lma collins -- they celebrated malcolm and through the publication, his autobiography sells over 6 million copies and malcolm becomes the people's hero. when you think about malcolm versus martin, what the history

books do not teach us and what classes do not teach us is how to think about them, how to critically analyze and see who they influenced in their time. what were their strengths and weaknesses? but also, why did their legacy endure? malcolm was a man of violence and war and king was a man of peace. who does not want to be with the person of peace? they convince you in school to choose. malcolm was angry. they say he was hated white people. all these things that are not true. and then king is this soft teddy bear. he forced people to pick king, but when you find out the story, which is what i tried to do in my book, now we have a series

called mlk acts, showing the way that their lives actually unfolded and when we look at their lives, they have so much in common with each other. but they were human rights activists who tried to transform american democracy and transform the world on behalf of justice in granular ways that continue to reverberate today. anybody saying that black lives matter or the women's march, or the march for our lives against gun violence, or marching for people who are clear and lgbtqia, or marches against islamophobia, or marches against anti-semitism -- you have to look at the political thought, the activism, the revolutionary lives of malcolm x and martin luther king jr.. host: the eight part series premiered on the national geographic channel earlier this month.

additional episodes will be released throughout the month. you can also find them on disney plus and hulu. before we get to calls, talk about their relationship with each other. guest: they meet only once march 6, 1964. now connect said seeing dr. king given the i have a dream speech, he is at the march at washington and sees the speech. he is impressed, even though he is critical. they met during the senate debate, the filibuster of 1964. they had a cordial meeting for a couple minutes and took a few photographs together. they were planning to meet again, although that meeting never happened. malcolm is in the audience in harlem, when king comes back from winning the nobel peace prize. malcolm listened to king do a speech that he later praises.

when you think about their relationship, their relationship is one where they only beat one time, but they are also on each other's mind. malcolm was the one he was more critical but over time, they are telling audiences that he and king have the same goals. malcolm says king does not mind getting beat up. very interesting. king makes the statement, but he also sends a private, personal no, telling her how fond he was of her husband. there is respect and admiration. february 4, 1965, right before

he is assessed needed, he speaks at a small church to different students and activists. coretta scott king is there. he is on the podium with her and he tells her that he has nothing but admiration and respect for dr. king and he is not there to make their lives harder. he wants to make it easier so that people can see that there is an alternative. very interesting relationship. it is actually a very close relationship and cordial relationship because king understands benefit he is getting from people characterizing malcolm x as this kind of potentially violent or dangerous alternatives. there is a good cop bad cop approach that sort of unfolded

organically during their lives. host: canton, michigan. you are up first. caller: good morning. thank you for your thorough research. it has been presented in narratives that in terms of both malcolm and mlk being black internationalists that they have different philosophies in terms of israel. we know that malcolm's visit in 1964 was very critical, as far as the mistreatment of palestinians. it influenced the black power movement, as far as solidarity. was there really a stark difference in viewpoints between malcolm and king, in terms of palestinians? do you think that malcolm and

his legacy has influenced black lives matter, as well as millennial and gen z? guest: yes. the way that malcolm would view that conflict is as an anti-colonial conflict. the deeper he gets into the middle east, he certainly does visit palestine for a couple of days and actually meets the head of the plo and meets with nasser. he named one of his children after him. he views it as an anti-colonial conflict and is very critical about the way -- he looks at palestinian refugee camps and is very critical. in terms of the record that we have, people say, what would he

have? it becomes more of a hypothetical. always in support. i know he is in support of any group of people feeling any kind of -- he does not go on the record in the same way that malcolm does in that situation. i think his version of solidarity continues to reverberate with different groups of people. and that includes people who are interested and focused on that conflict today. host: michael in california.

go ahead. caller: dr. joseph, i wonder if you can comment on what they said about evolution and their understanding of competition and cooperation. modern day, even today, we view evolution as being synonymous with competition. we view education as being synonymous with competition. and it is not. evolution does not lead to optimization and education has nothing to do with competition. the reason we view it that way is because of herbert spencer, who pushed eugenics in the 1960's and tried to use modern science and evolution to establish slavery. we have that same system of worshiping the bell curve. if you have a group of students who do not do well on a separate

them. cut off the top and put them in separate classes. even if you have the worst performing kids, you take within that group and we put a bell curve on that. 5% at the front and 20% on the backend. you do not create another bell curve can you flatten it so that every kid gets in a. we do not do that. every kid got a and every one of my classes. and it is the expectation that we know you are able. it is my job to give you the tools to do that. it is wonderful. host: dr. joseph? guest: thank you.

malcolm x and his final organization had a whole comprehensive educational plan. they had a plan for education, culture, voting rights. with the call i saying about school and not putting people in a bell curve was relayed to provide investment in public school in harlem and new york city, predominantly black areas where kids could really achieve. certainly, i think that dr. lewton -- dr. martin luther king jr. would have agreed. not interested in this ranking and hierarchy. all these children who are being marginalized can succeed and achieve but are not being given the structures or the resources to do so. since dr. king and malcolm x's

time, there have been more systems of punishment and private nation than investing in systems of educational opportunity that would really impact the outcome and impact the way that children of all races and backgrounds, but especially black children can succeed. host: gary in north carolina. caller: heather mcgee and i were on c-span, and i was the prejudice caller. i do not remember -- i do not know if you remember that or not. it was quite famous. host: absolutely. caller: i find it amazing that i'm calling in for a new guest who is a black activist and book writer. i had a few things to him a few

questions. i have been studying the last few years since it happened. he connected malcolm x to the second amendment and attached it to dignity. the second amendment is more of a self-defense thing, not so much dignity and people's feelings. do not use the second amendment for that kind of thing. that seems like a radical statement. i hope you might back off of that little bit. racism always revolves around inconvenience or the word no. that usually kicks off racism arguments. as long as things are going people's way and they are happy, racism never comes up, but we are inconvenienced by other people and we do hear the word no get acquainted to raise

accusations and things like that. host: all right. let's have our guest respond. caller: -- guest: malcolm feels like those with dignity will defend themselves. i'm not connecting the second amendment to dignity. malcolm points out that black people who are being attacked by racial terrorists in the south where the north east or west have the right to defend themselves. it is never for proactive violence against anyone. it is to defend themselves. all i'm saying is that his notion of dignity and self-defense, there is a connection, not one that he is necessarily making but this standard that black people

cannot have access to the second amendment. i would say that certainly there are certain folks who will connect it to dignity, but i'm not saying that malcolm did. in terms of racism, i think racism is deeper than just inconvenience. we think about racism as unequal outcomes in terms of wealth, in terms of accessing homeownership , bank loans, educational outcomes, in terms of health care, just in terms of every aspect of our lives. that is how we are thinking about racism. it goes beyond segregation, white, color, signs and bathrooms during the jim crow era. when you think about racism, we have to think about unequal

outcomes. it is the same thing when we think about sexism and misogyny. it is about a lot more than just inconvenience. host: kicking off a month-long series looking at black history month. guest: it is unbelievable -- unbelievably important because it is part of american history. it was founded as a link between the celebrations of george washington and abraham lincoln's birthday, and it becomes black history month by 1976. what is important about black history as this is the american history and our american story. it connects with them because they love to talk about american history, both racial slavery,

reconstruction, the wars, why people had been through from field to factory. he loves to talk about the prehistory. what it provides us with is the chance to understand not just the path by the present and the future. the chance to understand what are the gaps between the rhetoric and reality? it is also a chance to see the great beauty of the people who have transformed america. the way in which we think about humanism, humanity on a global scale. when we think about black history, it is very important for us to think about this as american history. it is part of our shared story.

it is actually a universal lens. so often we are taught that the only thing that is universal is the people of story -- it is very important when we talk about black history to think of it as an epistemological intervention. when we think of epistemology come all that word is is the philosophical foundation for knowledge. so often in the u.s., we only look at things through a european centered or eurocentric or western centric epistemological linens. what is great about malcolm x and then later martin luther king jr. is that malcolm loves to see things from a global perspective. that is why he visits the middle east. that is why he visits africa.

he does his major debate at oxford union. he is interested in other people's stories and looking at the world through a multifaceted lens. that is what black history provides us, a way to really ennoble ourselves by looking at the world through a different prism. host: how do you suggest honoring or commemorating it? guest: we commemorate it by sharing the stories, by reading the books and not banning the books. florida is banning books. but james baldwin really encouraged us, and so did malcolm x and martin luther king jr., to stop lying about our history. if we are a strong nation, we can understand and afford to learn about history. part of honoring it is by

reading the books, celebrating it and commemorating it, but also wrestling, telling ourselves, what is this history? how does this make me feel about the u.s.? how does it make you feel about the fourth of july? what is my understanding of black history? how does this make me gain a new understanding and comprehension and appreciation for things like citizenship, democracy? what are things like morality, christianity, religion and judaism? what does it mean in the history -- in the context? very interesting and very important. we honor it by learning more about it but also by spreading the word. we should not be a country that

is about book venting. we are american and interested in sharing the story because we are a grand enough nation to own up to our mistakes and to not lie about the past because if you lie about the past, but will you continue to do? people build a future based on lies. that will eventually be toppled. host: the author of the book the sword and shield. here is one of our viewers. what do see ashe main problem as to why blacks are refused reparations? guest: this is what we were talking about with the black history question. until 2020, what many did not understand about slavery and the way that black labor wilt wealth

in the u.s., but also builds up global capitalism. extraordinary books about this. that includes empire of cotton, ebony and iv, so many interesting and important books. so many others. when you think about slavery, it is not just the labor. we were used as collateral, as more insecurities to provide global investment for everything from harvard university, to banks and this is. black people created the first financial instrument that leads to private equity, hedge funds

and venture-capital, not just in the u.s. but across and around the world. this is demonstrably proved. first of all is the fact that we do not want to talk about that. what -- once you talk about that, you open up a pandora's box. it should not be a pandora's box that is negative. there has been reparations for groups in the past, including for the holocaust. those were the morally good and correct choices. the reason why americans do not want to talk about reparations is because certain ways, it becomes too big. they have a great book i am a supporter of reparations but also in a way that is very

expensive. i disagree with the idea that reparations should only be for black people who can demonstrably proved that one of their descendant were enslaved during the antebellum period. there were haitians who fought in the american revolution. there are people from the caribbean who fought in every war were not technically enslaved. there are people from the caribbean and other areas that were discriminated against and prevented from buying homes and building wealth. they should be connected to reparations as well. i am anti-the view of reparations. it is wrong. it is very small minded and it gets us away from that pan-african, global black identity that malcolm x

popularized and really taught us, this idea of black dignity that is universal and global, but i am for reparations. host: let's go to kathleen. caller: hello, dr. josephs. i cannot wait to read your book. as a kid in dayton, ohio in the mid-1960's, i had some nuns take us to a martin luth kg event. i remember sobbing in front of my parent's television set, watching blacks in the south and other cities being violently attacked by police, being beaten, fire hoses turned on them, german shepherds pick them apart. and that -- it was the start. by the influence of the words of

jesus christ, by the nuns asking us to walk the talk. many of us did our work based on martin luther king and malcolm x, big time. i am in dayton with a group. we filed a federal complaint under civil rights act title six about premier health network closing down a 93-year-old hospital in a 75% black neighborhood, while they expanded health care in white, suburban areas, beaver creek, and particular, and they built a 65,000 square-foot hospital facility and beaver creek, which is 86% white and tore down the 75%. all of this could be filed under title vi.

we asked senator brown to help us out. it did not help us at all. we begged him to come stand with us. the discrimination in regards to health care under title vi, i hope it can help us look into that issue of bringing justice to the neighborhood in regards to health care facilities, birthing centers. we know the mortality rate, but i was just astounded that senator brown did not stand by our side. we collected 600 testimonials about how the closing of that hospital affected the people in that neighborhood's lives. they sent it to the office. host: kathleen, i'm going to jump and because we need our guest to respond. guest: i'm completely supportive

of what you are saying. that is a great example of how structural racism works. it is not the inconvenience not a caller mentioned before but the shuttering of hospitals in black communities that need them the most, the lack of access to a pharmacy, to food, the product -- the proximity to the prisons and bars. the health of your children and health of yourself, more vulnerability to mental illness than any other population in the country. so those things are really bad and unfortunate. i think they connect to legacies in verprofound ways because king talks about buildg beloved community where

hospitals are not shut down. and malcolm talks about human dignity and how black people's human dignity has not been respected. and until that happens, we will not be treated as human beings. either we all count or none of us count. this idea of building a beloved community, these are important, radical, revolutionary ideas that we have to continue to advocate for into the 21st century. the only way history helps us and the only reason why i am a historian and a historian of black people globally is because history is not about the past. history is always about the present and the future. that is why people are trying to ban black history, trying to ban toni morrison and meeting of

black history because they do not want us to continue this fight for human dignity that martin luther king junior, that malcolm x gave their lives for. they contributed during their lives and after. host: once again, the book is sword and shield. there is also an eight part series called genius that premieres on national geographic with digital episodes being released through the month. thank you as always for the conversation this morning. we appreciate it. guest: thank you. i enjoyed it. host: thank you for watching and participating. we will be back tomorrow morning.

[captioning performed by the national captioning in announcer: this week the house thonal governors association winter meeting. speakers include sonya sotomayor and amy coney barrett. anon saturday, live coverage of a five hundred plus a group of pro-democracy antitrust conservatives and centrists serving as an alternat