>> quick. south carolina on saturday, on sunday, i will still be running resident i'm not going anywhere.

host: that is nikki haley from greenville at her home state of south carolina yesterday her val came on the same day as new polling the truth donald trump ahead of her manually 30 points. this morning we will begin by talking to republican voters only about warmer governor and u.n. ambassador nikki haley, whether you think she should remain in the gop primary. republicans and said yes, the phone number called, (202) 748-8000. republicans who say no, she should drop out, (202) 748-8001. you can also send us a text this morning, (202) 748-8003. otherwise, catch up with us on social media at x, facebook.com. k. wednesday morning you consider calling them now as a shaded front page of this day and a

headline trump is sprinting away from haley south carolina new polling fighting donald trump leading nikki haley by close to a 2-1 margin. the top headline, the numbers show is rick is only straight and yet here's more from nikki haley yesterday from greenville. >> a stunning 70% of the country doesn't want a biden-trump rematch. the majority of americans don't just dislike one candidate, they dislike both. as a country, we've never seen such dissatisfaction with the leading candidates. we've never had so many americans mired in pessimism and division. we still have a chance to restore their faith. i will fight as long as that chance exists.i is valid is saying.

he wants an election with no on. that is not with the voters are sitting. despite the fact incumbent, donald trump lost 49% of the vote in iowa. in new hampshire, trump lost 46% of the vote. that's not good. we are talking about almost half of their voters. what does it say about any pundit who is losing nearly half of his party? it spells disaster in november. we shouldn't silence his voters like he wants. they have the right to keep speaking out. host: that is nikki haley yesterday. she mentioned what donald trump is saying. this is what donald trump said last night and a fox news town hall after the nikki haley statement. from: she's not working. she's down by 30, 35 waves and everybody knows her. you're not supposed to lose your home state. shouldn't happen anyway and she is losing a bigly.

i said bigly. losing a bigly but we're going to really do have job that as you know, with iowa, we got the biggest margin in the history of the caucus, the biggest. >> why do you think she is staying in the race? >> i don't think he knows how to get out, actually. she did terribly new hampshire. >> they are trying to hurt me because of the general elections of the democrats are giving her money and she is laying into the game. she just can't get herself to get out. if she was doing well i would understand, but she is doing very poorly. she lost in record numbers in iowa, record numbers in new hampshire nevada, no name. host: former president trump in south carolina yesterday. this morning we are talking to

republicans only asking you simply do nikki haley should stay in the presidential race, and if so, why? if not, why not? (202) 748-8000 if you say stay in. (202) 748-8001 for republicans to say she should leave the primary. your load started south carolina, the south carolina primary taking place this weekend. julie on the line for those who say she should get out. go ahead. >> thank you for taking my call. i mean, it's not that she is a bad person. i'm sure she is a good person but at the end of the day, they are all politicians. for her to stay in is just going to complicate things even more. it's going to make a battle between him and her and one thing that nobody ever talks about, they don't really talk about anything anymore that is going to help an american citizen. like, the actual people.

none of them. they talk about what is going on with their lives and even with her, she talks about her history and what she did here. she's another one, they are all the same. vote kennedy, that is all i would ever say. i appreciate you taking my call. host: you say they are all the same but they are all not from south carolina. what do you think of the usa today poll that had nikki haley 35% heading into the south carolina primary? donald trump 63%, just 2% of republican primary voters saying they are undecided at this? >> absolutely. nikki haley is in south carolina, trumpets from new york. i am in south carolina and from new york. none of it matters, to be honest. every politician, no event the

politicians, they are all corrupt. she has a following in south carolina, he has his deal. everybody has a deal they are making it nobody is talking about the people. how much groceries cost, or how much we are going to help to lower in elation, back to a gold standard. nobody cares. this is a big distraction and it is sickening as an american but i appreciate you. have a great day. host: to florida, this is robert. your next. caller: nikki haley should stay in there for one reason. when she gets to the north states, new jersey, new york, she just might win all of them. i think she's got more common sense. i don't want two old people in there. host: robert, you are a republican voter and you have been a nikki haley supporter from the beginning of the

republican primary? caller: i've listened to all the stuff that is going on. donald trump has got a lot of legal fees and stuff like that. i will vote for it if he is the only one in, but right now i am sticking with nikki haley. host: the nikki haley campaign looking ahead to beyond the south carolina primary. again, the polling says she is likely to lose by a large margin yes, looking ahead to super tuesday, the story from yesterday noting that she is already spending more than half $1 million on television advertising, campaign set to begin running on wednesday in the state of michigan. her post-south carolina travel plans include several days across michigan and minnesota, colorado, utah, virginia, washington, d.c., north carolina in massachusetts looking ahead to the super tuesday election,

the headline she is not quitting. her first day in the gop contest. chatting with jess republicans only, if we could in this first hour of the washington journal and then we will ring all of their viewers in. but republicans only think she should stay in the race. republicans only who say she needs to get out of there, in primary, (202) 748-8001. see, michigan, one of those super tuesday states. go ahead. >> good morning to you. i do not believe nikki haley should stay in the race any longer. she has proven she is not going to be donald trump. i am a truck voter and i just think she is wasting our money, wasting tax money, wasting money from the republican party when they can have good in other areas. it is just for her own personal satisfaction.

i don't think she is equipped for number one. host: washington times story notes that some republicans are urging her to stay in the race the republican national convention, totally out of concern that the party night me -- need a candidate if donald trump is a convicted felon or if republicans want to switch up a nominee or have a choice on it. what are your thoughts on that aspect hanging over this? caller: i don't think switching is the case. i think what they have to do is find out the democrats, all these cases that have been brought against donald trump including these two ridiculous impeachment that are unconstitutional, they do not follow the rules. they have to be wiped out, that is it. and this business about he inflated his property, good board.

if i go to sell my house i will always put it higher than what they say it is. host: go ahead and finish your thought. caller: i can't believe these cases, this 80-year-old woman who said some 30 or 40 years ago he raped her in a city. and they are trying to wipe them out financially because of that? host: laura in michigan this morning. for an update on the cases that donald trump is facing both civil, in :00 a.m. our we are going to be joined by hugo lowell of the guardian newspaper. he has been following these cases the last couple of months. an update on the calendar, the timing, and how they are all playing that.

8:00 a.m. is that discussion. this is scott in dry ridge kentucky, go ahead. caller: i just don't think she should stay in. i am not a trumper, haven't drank his kool-aid and that is about as nice as i can say about donald trump. as a person, i haven't drank his kool-aid. host: what do you think it means that donald trump is beating nikki haley by such a large margin in her home state and in these various primaries we've seen already? caller: i don't care what he says, he lost the last election and republicans lost seats this past election.

and everybody is following him but he is not getting it done. host: i should point out that as we are having this discussion for folks who follow along here every day on twitter and folks or occasionally on the platform now known as x, a poll asking republican voters only, should nikki haley stay in the presidential race? you can choose yes or no. those saying that she needs to get out leading by a big margin among those who participated so far. we will keep that up for you and look for the treats and comments as well. mostly want to hear from you on the phones. should republicans stay in the president race? if you say yes, host:. if you say -- if you say yes, (202) 748-8000. if you say no, (202) 748-8001. chris, good morning. caller: good morning. i think that she should. stay in the race.

i think so because there are potential legal problems that could arise the former president. they should have a viable alternative whose opinions are known. but also, a question for c-span if i may. of the last nine callers, eight have been further republicans only, and only one for democrats. why don't you see what democrats think? we tried to be more fair and balanced, i would appreciate that. host: i appreciate that, chris, it is likely because these republican primary questions, there's more action as they say on the republican side of the eye married in the democratic side but i appreciate that. we do have those democrats-only

sections as well. guest: you had one. host: and i promise you will have more, but thanks for the note. mystery, good morning. -- missouri. caller: i think nikki haley should stay in because she would be the first female to reach this far in the race, so she should stay in the race. host: what do you like about her policies or what don't you like about donald trump's policies? caller: he's already had his time, he is in trouble with the law and everything. biden and everything, what i've been hearing is that he is not all there, so i want to have someone else in office beside

them two and haley could be the first female president and make history for females and rich a goal. host: this is darren on facebook saying absolutely she should stay in, she should be allowed to complete the dishware cribity and chances to ever hold public office again. i think nikki haley should stay in mental trump officer the vice president nomination. becky saying no, she needs to stop, no one is going to vote for her. this is two different conservative voices on nikki haley yesterday and that she gave in greenville, south carolina ahead of the republican primary. this is a headline first on the piece of yesterday. nikki haley's desperate search for relevance as she attempts to

justify her continued purchase patient in the presidential race on tuesday. and then to the usually-conservative opinion section and op-ed section after the wall street journal, the editorial board of the wall street journal and this headline. haley's case to keep running. there is a bigger reality that donald trump's campaign hasn't acknowledged year, and miss haley put it in plain terms yesterday. the only candidate stopping joe find his donald trump because donald trump is the only candidate joe biden could beat. his erratic behavior and personal views. those traits as haley pointed out have intensified in solid trump left office. she has shown grit and tenacity

and ace of insults and his allies they would be better off worrying more about why democrats are so eager to have trump as the republican nominee. this is allison colorado. caller: i already voted in the primary in colorado, we voted by mail and i voted for nick haley because when she was secretary of state -- host: are you saying u.n. ambassador rice caller: pardon, ambassador. she should have been secretary of state but she disagree with trump and she stood up to him. she was kind of quiet about it but i feel like she is a middle-of-the-road politician. she is a republican. i did vote for trump twice and i will vote for biden if he runs against trump. i feel that this was very, very

disrespectful to our country. he didn't say goodbye to biden. he is just too much of a narcissist. so thank you. host: that is alice in colorado. (202) 748-8000 firm republican to think nikki haley should stay in the race. (202) 748-8001 for republicans to think nikki haley should drop out of the race. this is more from nikki haley yesterday in greenville. [video] >> they say i haven't won a state, that might have to victory is slim. they point to the primary polls and say i'm only delaying the inevitable. why keep fighting when the battle was apparently over after iowa? look, i get. in politics, the herd mentality is enormously strong.

a lot of republican politicians have surrendered to it. the pressure on them was way too much. they didn't want to be left out of the club. of course, many of the same politicians who now publicly embrace trump privately dread him. they know what a disaster he has been and will continue to be for our party. they are just too afraid to say it out loud. well i'm not afraid to say the hard truth out loud. i feel no need to kiss the ring. [applause] i have no fear of trump's retribution. [applause] i'm not looking for anything from him. my own political future is of zero concern.

so i hear what the political class says, but i hear from the american people, too. i've heard from a retired army medic who looked people in the eye. when he says we are headed toward disaster, then american lives are on the line, he knows what he is talking about. he knows we can't afford more of the same. that is why he told me to give them hell. [applause] host: that was nikki haley yesterday talking to republicans only in just this first hour of the washington journal saying should she stay in the race or should she get out of the republican presidential primary? minnesota, good morning. go ahead. go ahead, sandra. caller: oh, yes. she should definitely stay in. our choices in november will be voting for someone with dementia

or someone who is demented and it is just a sad, sad situation. we need nikki haley, we need kennedy, we need someone with some class and some knowledge of military twice on. right now we have two people who have no military background. i don't understand how they can even vote for someone like trump or even think about voting for someone like trump after the way he has disgraced america. host: sandra, what is the path for nikki haley? what is the path to the nomination? take me past saturday, and expected loss by somewhere between 20 or 30 points by nikki haley in her home state. there will be lots of people saying if you can even come close in your home state, why are you running? caller: well, i don't know

exactly how it all works, but i just feel if there are enough people in america, not in these polls that are so guarded and so -- i don't know, they are not a fair poll, i don't deal. i've been polled before and it is just ridiculous. i think she needs to stay in there and give us a choice. i don't think that trump will be able to run because of all of his legal battles. i think they should disqualify him. i think america should stand behind the legal system and taken out of there. he is the one that should drop out and let someone younger -- we have two old people. i'm 76. there's no way someone that old should be running for president.

we need to put limits on exactly what haley is saying. if kennedy wants to clean up washington, the politicians that don't stand against trump are afraid of his power. it is like you said, he has gone crazy. he has said he is going to be a dictator the first date he is in there. what did he say before he was elected primary this time? when he was elected, he did exactly what he said on the campaign trail. two people now think he is not going to be a dictator? he's got the power of the people visiting him and it is just a sad, sad situation. host: sandra, minnesota. you mentioned the polling, a poll getting a lot of attention yesterday had knowledge from 63% and 35% in south carolina.

digging into those numbers in the usa today story today, here's what the good news was for nikki haley. she does have a widely among those identify themselves as liberals or moderates. again, these are people who are likely to go to the republic primary, and she wrote this. among those were voting in the gop primary for the first time. this advantage over dollar trump, 37%. the most important issue is the future of democracy in 2024. that said, they know only 13% of those surveyed said democracy is their biggest concern. rank the top 42% is immigration and border security and those voters support donald trump biannually 4-1 margin. palm bay, florida, good morning. >> good morning. is this for republicans or is the democrat-only line.

>> this is republican only, dan. caller: from what i'm seeing it has been all democrats. everyone is saying oh, vote for jfk jr. anyway, nikki haley should definitely drop out. nobody is voting for her who is actually republican. i mean there are some, but they are moderate republicans and i don't think that she is going to make it. she's just not going to make it. i don't know who she thinks is going to vote for her. host: you mean financially she will dry up or -- caller: no, she definitely won't dry out financially because she has all democrats behind her. it has nothing to do with money, there is just no reason to vote for her. so she can stay in until whenever she wants, there is no reason to vote for her. everyone sees who she really is. she is the same thing as joe

biden except with an r behind her name. she is the same thing as joe biden. so if everybody wants what joe biden is, both for nikki haley. also, when everyone brings out that donald trump wants to be a -- what is it, tyrant? host: a dictator on day one. caller: the whole dictator on day one thing. let me explain that to everyone, it was a joke. you guys need to lighten up, maybe chillout a little bit the only thing he said is i'm going to be a dictator for one day just so i can start drilling for oil and so i can close the border. after that he said i'm done being a dictator. so if you guys are so scared of the border being closed or drilling for oil, then yes, he's going to be a dictator. cry in your little beds. host: back to palmetto state

where the truck primaries happening. this is steve, good morning. caller: good to talk to you, it has been a while. yes, it is time for nikki haley to bow out. and i tell you what, she's not making any friends within the republican party anywhere. when she says things like the retirement age for social security is way too low, it might be a little low, but when you are telling people that 65 is needed to low, you are using a lot of supporters right there. i'm 76. that is not getting her any friends. ron desantis, i supported him early on is a smart man. it is just time to get out of the way, it is just not going to happen for anyone else. she is smart, south carolina now

is the fastest-growing state in the country. businesses are flocking to south carolina. it is confusing to me why anyone would support a president like biden who has tried to destroy traditional goals. but she was strong, i like your stance on abortion. she was strong on crime and she was real strong on second amendment rights as a governor. host: you've been in south carolina for a long time. caller: my whole life. host: you know nikki haley is a politician from south carolina. does it surprise you that she is refusing to get out of? some people are speculating yesterday that the state of the race, how they described it, saying this is the time that she is going to drop out. does it surprise you that she hasn't, and what do you think her goal is? caller: i'm not sure.

she is a smart lady. as smart as she is, she ought to know it is time to get out of the way. i don't know her and goal. if she were to bow out early, maybe she would have a chance somewhere in a cabinet position or maybe vp, i don't know. i just don't know. i can't figure out why she hasn't figured this thing out yet. i want to say one more thing about this tri-trial in new york. i've had loads against my property a couple times. since when does the property owner -- this is confusing to me, get to a place of value on his own property to secure a loan? i couldn't inflate the value of my property. i sure as heck couldn't -- maybe you can strike me out on that were some other color can. host: stick around for the next segment when we take a deep dive

on those different cases and spend a good 45 minutes on. join us then, will you? another steve in the first state, delaware. good morning. caller: good morning, good morning. i think nikki haley should throw in the towel and we should tragic united as a party which has been real difficult for last eight years and beyond. we got to go with a proven track record. voting for trump divided the country because so many people hate him, but if you look at the list of things he campaigned on, he just checked off everything down the list. he makes money and makes the company run right. i wish he would have had some finishing school up there, but as far as the border, his space

force was perfect timing. looks like we might be using in soon with what is going on with the russians. we are a real bad position here. we've got china, russia, iran. in fact, north korea. i think they are going to come after us. nikki haley is certainly a well-established tenure, qualified person. she would make an excellent vice president but we have got to get on the same page here. host: you think donald trump would consider her for vice president? caller: i think when everybody slings all the mud, they do. he is one of those guys will blow you out in a minute but he will make the best business decisions and i think that is best for nikki haley along with tim scott. nikki haley is probably the

best-qualified vp. that way we get 12 years of trying to get this mess straightened out. we are in trouble, and i'm scared. host: you mentioned former republican presidential candidate tim scott being one of them, the other being a senator of south carolina supporting donald trump here. he was on fox news on monday talking about staying in the race. caller: sometimes you wake up on monday morning and you realize that the race is already done the best thing you can do is to get out the way. i hope that happens because nikki haley has run the best race she could run and lately, her campaign has been descending. it is desperation that you feel coming from her camp. when you feel that type of desperation, that means the race is already over and the leading person, nikki haley herself has to come to the realization, she has to realize that this race is over.

it is best for the country. not just the party, but it is best for america and that we focus on joe biden, and frankly, on monday morning, we are going there either way, but we would love to have her as a part of that team. host: tim scott, republican senator of south carolina become fox news republicans only, do you think nikki haley should stay in the presidential race? good morning. caller: yes, good morning. i think that nikki haley should drop out, but -- won't let her because sooner or later she is going to have to face it. the one who called in and said that trump is not hearing what america is saying, i think he really is hearing what america is saying and we want him. trump is not demented. look at how he speaks. look at how he acts.

the press loves them, but they hate him. the fbi, doj, abc, cbs, cnn have all disgraced themselves tripping over themselves trying to destroy trump. haley has disagreed with herself. she has also disgraced herself. he is not going to be a dictator. he said when he is going to do, close the border. get america back together again theories who separated america was the media and the democrats. trying to get everybody to hate trump. the democrats changed the rules like that one member supposed to solve was what happened and she

got all that money for what? this was a total disgrace. i'm surprised there are so many people who want to killed 80's in america. i call her nikki cheney and she should drop out. thank you so much for taking my call. host: this is george, good morning. caller: good morning. i voted for president trump twice i will never vote for him again. he never really grew in the office. he did a poor job as a politician. georgia, pennsylvania percent, and i really think nikki haley can do the job. i think that is important now. i think he would make a good president. too often we get people to do the job were not good candidates. romney has been terrible.

mitt romney would've been a good president but he wasn't good candidates. thank you come c-span. host: you say donald trump never grew in office. so why did you both are in a second time? caller: because of the alternatives. i didn't like joe biden as a candidate. his history was not good and acting he has been wrong on most international decisions he made. host: what if it is donald trump and joe biden again in 2024? caller: i'm taking a hard look at no label. host: do you have a candidate would like to see take that line in various states? caller: joe manchin was there, but he is not there. jon huntsman,-he is somebody who

can definitely do the job. i think no labels, it is a tough ride but i think host: --host: about 20 minutes left in this first segment. talking to republicans only about the republican primary after nikki haley's statement yesterday saying i'm not going anywhere in the primary contest. the south carolina, good morning. caller: good morning, c-span, and thank you all for educating the world. nikki haley should never have entered the race. neither one of them should ever have entered the race. the republican party wants to

make history again by shutting down the convention. and what president trump has done, president trump has made $50 million per year. the democrats blocked money from being even issued. and i know another thing personal from president trump, the money that he gave. i am a third-generation tobacco farmer so i know what trump is. all you other listeners who are out there considering voting joe biden, let's do the history of joe biden. he is not a good candidate when it comes to black people, that is for sure.

put dollar trump back into office so he can make 100% promises to america. host: you mentioned money, the second to focus on fundraising. the associated press reporting that nikki haley last month holden about nine point -- pulled in about $9.8 million of the super pac associated with her. we are getting a lot of numbers at the same time and focusing on the buying campaign. this story in the wall street journal, president biden's reelection effort raise more than $2 million last month. his campaign said that related entities had about $130 million in the bank by the end of january looking ahead to the 2024 general election. $130 million in cash is up from

117 million dollars supported the 2023. donald trump campaign and his allies reported close to $65 million cash and the end of last year. a node in the wall street journal found the contributions to pro-trump groups are consistently strong but nonetheless encumbered by at least $48 million spent by the campaign on lawyers and legal services last year. trump's legal bills last year ate into about one quarter of this fundraising effort. in the next hour we are to focus on the cases that are the cause of that legal spending, focus on the civil and criminal trial that donald trump is facing. rebecca in florida, good morning. caller: good morning. i absolutely believe that nikki haley should stay in the race. she was a great governor, she

would be a terrific president. she is a breath of fresh air and a terrific communicator. she will have all of us together and maybe we could all stop fighting each other. the thought of spending the next eight and a half months listening to biden and trump and january 6 and his court battles and biden is atrocious. she will fix the border, she will fix dynamic control and she will strengthen our defense. she knows how to talk about abortion hypothetically. i would be proud to both read the first female president and ask everybody to at least listen to her and give her a chance. thank you. host: calhoun, georgia, good morning. caller: how are you? host: doing well. caller: i think nikki haley should drop out but there is only really one reason she is still in the race, because she doesn't have a regular job. all of the other candidates have another job they'd had to go back to, either a governor,

senator, so she has no other job. this is her job, getting paid to run against trump. and yesterday she disqualified herself on the campaign trail because he stood up there in public -- and i am a father of two daughters, i have a wife and everything, but she stood up there and cried in public. and in the world that we live in today, when you shed tears like that, you show a huge weakness to people around the world that don't care about tears and will cut your head off at the blink of the night. we need a strong person that shows strong. it is ok to cry and that you can do it in private, you don't do it in public like that. host: marshall, texas, good morning. caller: [indiscernible] host: go ahead, what do you think? caller: i would rather see trump

lose to nikki haley than to biden. i will take nikki haley, she should stay in there. thank you, goodbye. host: this is more from nikki haley yesterday in greenville, south carolina. >> is not normal to insult our military heroes and veterans. [applause] >> is not normal to spend $50 million in campaign contributions on personal or cases. it is not normal to threaten people to threaten people back your opponent, and it is not normal to: russia to invade native countries. donald trump has done all of that and more in just the past month. look, i've said it many times. i think donald trump what the right president at the right time. but times change, and so has

trump. he has gotten more unstable and unhinged. he spends more time in courtrooms than he does on the campaign trail. he refuses to debate. he is completely distracted, and everything is about him. he is so obsessed with his own demons from the past he can't focus on delivery the future americans deserve. we have two hugely flawed candidates. americans know it, they have been saying it for years. and we all know why. trump and biden are two old men who are only getting older. nearly 60% of americans say trump and biden are both too old to be president. because they are. we've all seen them fumble their words and get confused about world leaders. that is not who you want in the oval office when russia launches

a nuclear weapon at our satellite or china shuts down our electricity. host: nikki haley yesterday in south carolina have south carolina i married. asking you this morning, republicans only, should nikki haley stay in the race? (202) 748-8000 if you say yes. (202) 748-8001 if you say she should get out of the race. also looking for your comments on social media. this is susan in south carolina saying suld drop out. democrats arng for her because they are so scf donald trump. in in from hawaii, a trump sur sayin a hawaii with a colivi high, everyone i know is saying that they want to go back to the days when every thing was cheaper be it food, gas, or everything else. i hear people saying that they wantrump back and these are probably people who did not like trump or who are not politically active. imagery of people here don't know who nikki haley is.

she should drop out and rally around one candidate. your phone calls especially this morning, republicans only for about 14 minutes here. jonesville, vermont. caller: hello? host: go ahead. caller: yes. i'm watching from td i didn't realize -- i say she needs to get out and the reason i'm saying this is the people have spoken. she is not listening to the polls or what they are saying. why would you think she is going to listen to you when she is in office? it just boggles my mind. the other thing, what everybody is seeing is just an empty suit.

the whole world knows this. why would you vote for an empty suit vs. a person who has actually proven himself? host: when you say that the people have spoken, nikki haley supporters will say that a fraction of republicans have spoken. republicans in iowa and vermont and nevada have spoken, but that is it at this point. so what do you say to those comments? caller: i agree is a fraction, but in all polling and everything else, the numbers are just almost twofold. she's heading into it almost twofold situation and she is still not going to even consider it. we need to focus on biden, not nikki haley. i'm sorry, i think she is a great person, a strong woman and everything else, but i don't think she is fit for the job and i think you need a bad boy. we need somebody in there who is

going to going there and shake things up like he did before and look what he did. his policies worked. i'm watching the show, i'm not seeing him delivering his message. you're not giving him a shot. i just seek nikki, nikki, nikki. in my whole heart i want to believe or not being biased and i'm not going to assume that you are, but boy, it sure is tough to believe that. i'm having a hard time. host: yesterday, the home state primaries this weekend. if there is a time to talk about it, it seems like today if the data do it. are you with us? caller: yeah, yeah. yeah. what are you telling me here?

host: do you think this debate isn't happening in the republican party? do you think is being overplayed, i guess? caller: i'm sorry, i can't follow, i'm not following you. i don't understand what were asking me. i'm sorry, i don't want to take up all your time here or anybody else's time. host: all right. we will go to greg in riverside, california, good morning. caller: good morning, how are you doing? host: good. caller: i am in my garage. i voted for trump twice and i will not be voting for him a third time mainly based on a lot of people from supporters talk about with policy. what policy? a gentleman called earlier and said that he funded hbcus. no, he didn't. he zeroed out that. it was brought back in by a virginia congressperson.

what happened to him getting bit of obamacare? what happened to him actually building the wall? none of these things happened. people want to talk about his policies, his policies. i'm not a fan of joe biden by any stretch of the imagination, but at least the guy is decent. more than one case of insulting women, more than one case of women saying he -- host: i think we lost greg in his garage. portsmouth, virginia, good morning. caller: good morning. i think nikki haley should stay in the race. we need that point of view, we need to consider more than half of the people in our country are women. we had male presence for a long time. it is important to rethink our values.

we ought to consider tax credits for charity care, whether state-by-state or nationally. and i think having a woman president would force us all to rethink our values in an ethical way. host: you talk a lot about domestic policy and certainly nikki haley has talked about that on the campaign trail. she also has experience as a former u.s. ambassador and her reading of the world stage, as it were. you think this is going to be a foreign policy election in 2024? caller: i can't tell, but i don't think so. i think domestic issues are equally important. i think the border on the south is an issue.

i think the way we govern our own country is an even more important issue. and i think we have the opportunity to protect charity care state-by-state and nationally which would help everybody have more access to medical care. host: that is portsmouth, virginia. on the foreign policy front, certainly the israel-gaza war taking place, the israel-hamas war taking place in gaza is front and center. this is the headline in today's usa today. the united states a what they are calling and irresponsible human resolution on the gaza cease-fire. thomas greenville now holds that position of u.s. ambassador to the u.n., that position that nikki haley held in the trump administration. it was vetoing a resolution demanding immediate cease-fire in that war, a 30-1 security

council vote further isolating the united states onto the side of israel in this conflict that is generating global outrage. the u.s. has vetoed two similar resolutions since the war in gaza began, and britain with the country that abstained yesterday from voting. this is u.n. ambassador linda thomas-greenfield yesterday. >> to build a tour that future, the united states is working on a hostage deal between israel and hamas. this hostage deal would bring in immediate and sustained period of calm to gaza for at least six weeks and from there we could take a time to build a more enduring peace. president biden has had multiple calls in recent days with prime minister netanyahu as well as the leaders of egypt and qatar to push the steel forward.

and although gaps remain, the key elements are on the table so that if an arrangement is reached, it would help create the conditions for sustainable cessation of hostilities which i know all of us would like. of course we want this deal to happen as it is impossible as shown by our exhausted efforts. but sometimes diplomacy takes more time than any of us might like. believe me, i understand the desire for the council to act urgently. to positively shape the situation in line with the security council's mandate. still, that desire cannot blind us to the reality of the situation on the ground and it cannot come at the expense of undermining the only, and let me repeat, the only path available

for a longer, endurable peace. that is why you've heard me say over and over again any action this council takes right now should help, not hinder these sensitive and ongoing negotiations. and we believe that the resolution on the table right now was, in fact, negatively impacting those negotiations. demanding an immediate, unconditional cease-fire without an agreement requiring hamas to release the hostages will not bring about a durable peace. instead, it could extend the fighting between hamas and israel, extend the hostages time in captivity, and experience described by former hostages as hell. host: u.n. ambassador linda thomas-greenfield yesterday. back to your phone calls here with just a human if left in

this first segment, talking to republicans only about nikki haley. should she stay in their race or get out of the republican primary? columbus, ohio, good morning. caller: yeah, she should get out because, you know, basically she is dividing the party when we could be uniting, and trump foreign policy as i remember, we were in three or four conflict around the world. they are eating our lunch. they are going to come here and i'm sorry, but she is too damn soft for me. i want a strong person on the front lines. his foreign-policy was actually working. he is proven. so she needs to drop out. i wouldn't vote for a woman right now. i want a strong man outfront who is proven.

biden can't even talk, he is drooling. i'm sorry, it is kind of clear. host: says gloria in ohio. this is jerry in newark, ohio, good morning. caller: good morning. i believe she needs to stay in. we need someone new in office. he is always running to court, ending in court battles all the time. we need him focused on what is going on. trump is a big dictator and a big bully who was a disgrace to america. when he is in office, he is ruining everybody. bringing everybody down. i don't want my grandkids and my kids to think that is ok, that that is what you do to people just to get what you want. i want someone in office was

going to concentrate on what is going on in office. we needs of young in there. fresh, new ideas. and i think she would do a very good job. host: olympia, washington, go ahead. caller: thank you. i believe nikki haley should stay in the. i'm afraid it is a bit of a thankless service that she would be doing, but more than the usual contingencies. that trump could actually get convicted.

facing the criminal cases that he is facing, and of course, he is old and he could have a reversal of health or a reversal of mental stability. i'm afraid that nikki haley would be doing a great service even leading to the primary season whether some of these contingencies are going to affect voting. did they continue to think it is a good idea to nominate trump or not? if she's running, that can be measured. if she drops out, then she can't. if the measurement is strong enough, something that could

happen, something that is muted at the time in 2016 but didn't happen, could happen. the convention could vote to release delegates from being bound to anyone in particular and they could take a second look. host: that's our last caller in this first segment. stick around, plenty of more to talk about this morning including a look at those criminal and civil cases the donald trump is facing. we will be joined by a local investigations reporter at the guardian for that conversation. later, our black history month series continues with a focus on the tolls arrays massacre and its impact on american history -- the tulsa race massacre and

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watch c-span's 2024 campaign trail friday nights at 7 p.m. eastern on c-span, online at c-span.org or download as a podcast on c-span now, our free mobile app or wherever you get your podcastss. c-span, your unfiltered you will politics. . did your unfiltered view of politics. >> "washington journal" continues.. host: the conversation on the various legal challenges of donald trump with hugo lowell. the headline of your latest piece from yesterday -- trumps trial calendar becomes clear. start with the first part of that headline, the trial calendar remind viewers where we are. >> we now have a trial scheduled in new york for march 25 and we have jury selection starting. that's the first concrete date we have. for a long time, we were

thinking that the federal january 6 case might be the first one to go to trial. that was originally scheduled for march 4 but because of trumps delay tactics, we are in new york first and now that's on the calendar and trump has an idea about how his legal cases will play out so i think that's a degree of clarity we didn't have. as for the rest of the cases, it will be up to the supreme court. we need to figure out how this will play out and begin to the connected nature of these cases. justice is don't want to schedule stuff before they know it's going on with the rest of the trump calendar. i think this is a good way to get started. host: what are the delay tactics you are referring to? guest: he's made no secret of the fact that his legal strategy for all of these cases is to find ways to delay which favor the defense in these cases. with trump specifically, he has managed to settle on this avenue

of presidential immunity. unlike all the other things he wants to get the indictment dismissed. it gives him a special thing when he appeals. he is granted an automatic stay and it freezes the underlying case. when his lawyers discovered that avenue, they kind of honed in on that and that's why you are seeing the january 6 case in washington on hold while he goes to the supreme court to argue the immunity claim. host: how can we determine when that case might go to trial? guest: it gets complicated. the first thing to note is the judge who is the presiding judge in the washington cases always said trump will get his full seven months to prepare when the scheduling was first set on march 4. trump submitted his appeal to the circuit on december eight.

went to calculate when a trial might be is to take the time between december 8 and march 4 which is the amount of time he had left and then add whatever further delays we get in this case in that time period. if it's roughly three months, we have from february 12 which is when the d.c. circuit issued its mandate and trumps filing to the supreme court and whatever the current date is. that gap is expanding so when ever the supreme court finally issues a judgment, let's say they return it to the judge and they denied the immunity claim, that's when the three month clock, the remaining three month clock restarts. host: what of the supreme court thinks about this for a while and we see the big cases come out at the end of their term. what if they wait until the end of this term? guest: it's a real possibility.

because people want to see the way this case progresses, they would like to see quick resolutions are no resolutions but i think there is a strong chance that the supreme court waits on this issue potentially toward the end of the term as you say in which case we may not have a trial start before election day. if the supreme court decides we will not take this case and supreme court watchers think of the supreme court decides that from can stay on the ballot in colorado for instance, he might get an unfavorable ruling on the immunity thing and they might refuse to hear the case. when the supreme court in effect decides whether to hear the case or not. if they decide not to take the case in the immunity question, jurisdiction go straight back to the district court and the judge can restart the clock and say

you have three months from today to prepare for trial and i will set up ryle -- a trial date in may. if the supreme court waits late into the summer, it could be in july we get a decision postconvention, then we will not have a trial before the election. host: the georgia case and what we saw last week in georgia, what does that mean for the timing on when or if that case comes to trial? guest: that is the one case we don't have a tentative trial date set. it has already been scrambled little bit because the situation there in essence, the district attorney, had a romantic relationship with one of the deputies. the defendants in the rico case basically alleging there was some sort of kickback scheme or financial benefit that she got out of hiring the external

special prosecutor because he was making a lot of money we estimate $700,000 by working on the trump case and that's because they were in a romantic relationship. it's in her interest to keep her on the payroll and her interest to continue the investigation because they went on trips together and they took a cruise to aruba and the bahamas. she took him to belize. there were about four trips they took together in the argument was this was improper and constituted a conflict of interest and she needs to be disqualified. this is where we get to the hearing last week. i was there for two days and i listened to all the testimony and it was excruciating at times. i don't want to hear about people are sleeping together. the bottom line was the defendants struggled to show

that there was any sort of financial kick but that was -- kickback that was concrete. the burden is on the defendants here because they have to show that there was something improper going on in the das office. host: she is not the defendant here? guest: that's right, the trump camp are trying to show something improper. they struggled to make that showing i think in part because they really didn't have any way to rebut the assertion from the district attorney's office that she was reimbursed in cash for a lot of the trips they took together even if you don't believe that claim, it's a separate issue -- is it really a financial benefit if nathan wade was going to take -- she was going to take on these trips and could afford to. the special prosecutor still had

his own law firm so wasn't like the trump case was the only case he had going. when you look at all of that in totality, judge mcafee who is presiding in fulton county needed to decide if they met this burden and technically the burden is actual conflict and that's an extremely high bar to clear. host: we want to invite viewers to join the conversation. a good time to brennan -- to bring hugo lowell in. call in with your questions or comments. our phone lines are republicans (202) 748-8001, democrats (202) 748-8000, independents (202) 748-8002. we will get to those calls after you explain where we are in the classified documents on the federal case. guest: we are in something of a limbo in the document case. basically, the document case is to trial in what's known as the information procedures act.

it's a multistep process that was enacted to make sure that espionage charged defendants don't just release classified material at trial and eventually blackmail the government to say we will expose all these national security secrets. the term is called grave mail and to protect against that, there are specific steps the government and defendants have to go through in order to get to trial. section four is midway through the process. it's classified and sealed so there's not really that much going on in the public eye but we do know several things. trump is trying to compel more discovery from the special counsel jack smith. he is trying to make this claim that there was a slack of prosecution and biden wasn't charged in his documents investigation and they are trying to allege there was bias and make arguments in essence

that the case needs to be dropped or that specific charges need to be removed. they are trying to get the government to give them more discovery. there is an arcane fight going on behind closed doors about how to define the scope of the discovery and what trump and his defendant should be allowed access to. he gets complicated because it's all classified or sealed. among other things, we have reported there has been a fight over witness list. trump wants access to and publishing in court filings potential government witnesses. they want to make public from last night, they want to publicize area maps of mar-a-lago and demonstrate that it's all secure. these are the sort of argument they are trying to make in the

government says we don't want this coming out. section four is the stage where they had to make the showing to the judge that they want to push back on these arguments. it gets very complicated. host: that's the overview of where the criminal cases stand. we can get to the civil cases as well. when we talk about this topic, we have plenty of calls already. independent line is up first out of detroit, michigan. good morning. caller: hi, good morning. i'm glad you mentioned the documents case with trump. the espionage act as a factor there. i would have more sympathy for donald trump if he had pardoned julian assange for wrongly prosecuted under the espionage act because he's a real journalist. you guys are like tmz compared to julian masson so that's why i have no sympathy for trump.

host: have you covered much of the julian assange's case? guest: we have. the guardian has a track record of covering national security cases. the only point i would make about him is the circumstances are so different. we keep coming back to the central core of the obstruction case with trump. the argument was trump's refusal to comply with the grand jury. had he returned the documents, there would be no criminal case. he decided to play something of a shell game where he didn't return the document or was trying to tell his lawyer at the time that there is nothing really bad in there. it went into evidence in this case and was making these gestures and it was recorded by the lawyer. i think that's the difference here in the core of the documents case with trump is obstruction.

host: this is michael on the line for democrats. caller: hello. i had a quick question regarding trump. what do you think his plans are if he actually gets convicted? will he stay in the race or will he get voted in? if you are convicted and you get voted in, what happens at that point? he will be sitting in jail controlling the country? i just want a little clarity. host: walk us down this path a little bit. guest: i think trump will stay in the race regardless. there was a lot of talk last year when the campaign was on sketchy footing if he would drop out if he was indicted and the answer was that this is his ticket to freedom in essence and that's just the caller brings up a good point. even if he is convicted, if he becomes president, there is a

constitutional understanding that you don't impede the functions of the presidency. he would be effectively permitted to serve his full-term without being harassed by the government and the justice system. the more important point is trump's return to the white house, he could potentially sell pardoned himself. this has been discussed. if he is not convicted before the election, he could appoint an attorney general who was sympathetic to him was a loyalist and have him drop the charges. you must remember that in the second trump administration, you will see the justice department under the west wing in a way we haven't seen, at least that is the plan. so you have a very loyalist attorney general and trump can direct them to drop the charges. host: greenville, tennessee, duncan is next. caller: yes, i was going to point out the fact that in the

u.s. constitution, political parties and politics is not mentioned whatsoever. it may be different in other countries such as great britain which is where a lot of our laws derived from as well as our political party system. historically, our presidents, george washington was our only nonpolitical president that served in office on the rest of them were involved in a political party but it's important to point out that george washington knew what politics would do to political parties. they could be destructive to the country in some affect. host: bring me forward two hundred 50 years. caller: in his farewell address, he warned about political parties. it brings us to the trump situation. it's out of hand just like

george washington warned us of. we are getting to the point where it's dangerous and you attack people and try to put them in jail and were finding them. it's getting very serious. people are talking civil war. i'm wondering why nobody in the media or investigative political reporters are addressing that situation. you cannot hold a royal title in the united states. we don't want our political system like that. it seems it would be a perfect election for two guys who were serving a presidential term could somehow reach a resolution were political parties go away and it's like man on man. host: what do you want to pick up on? guest: the fundamental point with these criminal cases and one that the justice department has repeated is that no one is above the law. if you defy grand jury's or don't turn in classified

documents or try to overturn the results of the election in the generally six case. this is now a statute before the supreme court it's also a statute that you have to remember, got district court judges have applied across the board and decided it applies to edification. in many ways, trump had the biggest role to play in stopping january 6 than anyone else. he was directing rudy giuliani and these other lawyers to call up senators and tell them stop the certification. it's such a low bar that the just apartment has to clear on that charge. it makes sense for them to bring that to the prosecution. can you sustain a conviction on appeal? i think that was a close look at this. there was this decision made

that this was quite a clear violation of the law. when you talk about the totality of the charges, the underlying theme is trump kind of showed -- grand juries in multiple jurisdictions whether it's florida or the district of columbia returned indictments like in atlanta. the idea that this is a political prosecution connected to politics runs kind of hollow when a lot of these cases are being returned by a grand jury of your peers. host: how much does donald trump owe and how much is he worth now? guest: it's growing. we have the defamation case earlier in the year. that was about $80 million. he recently had the judgment in the new york ag civil case

around $450 million. if you add them together, you're looking that half $1 billion which is a lot of money. we estimate trump to be worth between 350-4 hundred million dollars in liquid cash. that comes from two or three deep -- real estate deals he's done since being in the white house including his hotels and golf course in the saudi backbencher. the idea if you talk to people around trump, he realized he needed a deal because there might be financial problems coming down the track. he has about $400 million and that's what he testified to in his deputies -- in his case in new york. he will probably have to get an additional source of income but we are not sure where that will come from. when the ideas that the trump advisors have been looking at is

a bond company that will require him to put down some collateral. you have to pay a premium for the fees. his preferences do not put his own money down. i think that's the first one in the second point is that his super pac cannot put the money down because that would be in direct violation, that's not allowed. host: why can't he use campaign funds to pay legal fees? guest: he has to use his personal funds, he cannot use the pack because you cannot have direct coordination between the pack in the campaign. he is trying to find a way to get out of that. he's going to have to find a bill company. host: this is something we read in the last segment. contributions to pro-trump groups are consistently strong but encumbered by 48 million spent on lawyers and legal services. last year, his legal bills eight into a corner of his fundraising

efforts. guest: it's paying for lawyers and paying for judgment. you can pay for lawyers and what happens in the documents investigation, a lot of people were political aides of him and his sister was invited. his campaign lawyer got subpoenaed. trump paid for his lawyers. host: you can pay the bill but not the find? guest: that's right. host: florida is next. caller: good morning. i have to respectfully disagree with the guest in regards to the fairness that he alleges toward donald trump. i'm in my mid-70's and i have never seen the kind of political persecution going on towards an individual that's going on against donald trump.

there are a lot of people who are above the law contrary to what you say. they are all democrats. a good example is hillary clinton and the 33,000 emails she destroyed that had already been subpoenaed. 33,000. i may also point out that barack obama took with him close to one million documents after he left the presidency. may i say justifiably so. as a former president of the united states of america. why shouldn't he be able to have those documents and review and digitize them as he took much too long to do, yet he was never persecuted for that. donald trump did essentially the same thing. he did give back numerous documents back to the archives. there are some he did not give back. he was persecuted for that. he had his home invaded by the fbi.

i have never seen anything like this. host: we got your point. guest: first of all, the point about taking documents with you, this is a point that trump makes repeatedly on the campaign trail and on social post. that's not white house the presidential record is. when trump talks about the presidential record in an interview in the town hall like you did last night, it misstates the law. in essence, the presidential law says all of these documents are government documents and the ones that retain them are the national archives. they are the property of the government. after nixon, they wanted to make sure you wouldn't have former president running off with documents that might be problematic later on or who knows.

i think that's the first point in terms of retaining documents. with obama, there is no grand jury subpoena. he claimed the idea of obstruction that was because he played games with the justice department. it was abundantly clear he had to comply with the subpoena. we done reporting on the contents and his advisor said there's no way they can go after him. he asked if we have to give everything back and they said yes and trump effectively made sure that what they look through in terms of what is compliant with the subpoena, he made sure that he didn't have access. there was a violation of the subpoena. it was not a grand jury subpoena for obama and these are important points. in general, these are not

political persecutions. it might seem that way but trump repeatedly engaged in activity that aggravates all of these situations. he takes a course of action against the government. it's not clear and the burden will be on the government at trial. multiple grand jury's have returned indictments against trump. host: the corcoran issue you brought up, it seems to work for donald trump. guest: he's taken a bit of a backseat as you might imagine. he is not on the filings anymore. one thing the trump guys realized was if they let go of all the lawyers that work on the criminal investigation, they would lose the institutional knowledge of what went on. the only lawyer left who took the lead role in the documents

investigation who is still on now. host: ohio, line for democrats go ahead. caller: good morning. i'm glad the guy from florida call before me because he made my point talking about unequal justice when it comes down to the documents case. there is an airman out there now being charged with leaking classified information's. he is in federal custody. his commander-in-chief has 36 cases against him and he is running for president. you call that equal justice? i don't think so. thank you. host: anything you want to follow up on? guest: it seems to be a point about a pretrial incarceration. this is on a case-by-case basis and the government makes a showing. the idea that trump is a flight risk or that he will leave the

country or somehow evade trial is very minimal. his running for president. the idea that happening is zero. if the government tried to have a pretrial limitation imposed on trump, they said you can release him on bond conditions. for most espionage cases, that's not the case. you have a defendant who are spies or they engage in other espionage activity. that does make them a continued national security risk on a flight risk. at the end of the day, pretrial incarceration is there to make sure this gets to trial. i'm not familiar with the specifics of this case but i would assume it would come down to the fact that this guy host: it's been a couple of weeks since the story. your reading of the government report on joe biden and the documents investigation? guest: the consensus from inside

the justice department was the way the report was written. they got into essen nations that went beyond the scope. there is some idea about writing the special counsel reports, that it's important to state why you don't prosecute someone and it's important to explain how you got to that decision. i think the white house was upset at how the age question came up, how biden's acuity came up. i think that became the central narrative of the case went really what was at issue was it was never clear obstruction and even if biden did have classified documents on the one hand, there is a question whether it was willful and aggravating to extent that it

would be prosecuted. the trump lawyers have seized on this in their own case to make the argument that this is selective prosecution. i think it opened that door for them because there is a section in the special counsel report talking about how it there is no need to prosecute biden because there is an ongoing prosecution of a former president with classified documents. i think that is something that is probably going to get litigated now in the southern district of florida. who knows if it will be successful but that opened the door. host: did robert hurt have a james comey moment? what does that mean? guest: i think not. when we refer to james comey and think about his tenure at the fbi, you think about the justice department placing its thumb on the scale and influencing the outcome of the election. i don't know if that comparison

is apt here in part because we are so far away from the election. if you think about james comey reopening the investigation and making an announcement close to election day, a lot of people construed that as putting your thumb on the scale. we are in february. we have months to go especially this new political cycle when these things really don't stick. i don't know if this will make that much of a difference. people say that biden was old and many people think that and people have their views entrenched. host: you talk to folks at the justice of hartman, were they taken aback at those kind of comparisons that this could possibly be construed as placing their fingers on the scale? have you heard much from them about the blowback on that report? guest: i don't know that they

felt they would get as much blowback as they did. i think a lot of former people at the justice department and former people in the criminal division talk about how on its face, reading the report publicly seems to violate these rules of the special counsel reports which is not the way into politics. around the same time, there is wariness about this publicly because at the end of the day, the attorney general signed off on this report being public. the attorney general told the special counsel this is inappropriate. he gave robert herr wide latitude to write the report. it comes back to merrick garland's aimed -- aims to politicize the justice department.

he said he let them reach their own conclusions. host: destruct that out? guest: i think people inside the justice department think that merrick garland should have narrowly tailored the report so it wasn't so descriptive about bidens memory. host: less than 10 minutes left with hugo lowell from the guardian. this is john waiting in new york, thanks for waiting, independent. caller: i've been watching this but i get the impression that this journalist is focusing like a laser beam on donald trump. i wouldn't, journalist, i would call him a lobbyist for the democratic party, that's my opinion. host: how long have you been working on political investigations and what other ones do you cover? guest: i've been covering the trump investigations and week covered the january 6 committee

as well as biden. before that, i covered sports corruption like the national olympic committee and the russian doping scandal. host: no shortage of investigations there. guest: all of these investigations, you get these allegations are these suggestions -- in some instances it's true about political allegations. in some cases it's not. in the russian doping, it was clear that the kgb were swapping doping samples through a small door in specially constructed laboratory in sochi during the winter olympics. it was clear in my reporting my college reporting that when you are these international hotels in different countries where you have members of the fifa executive committee go up to hotel rooms and brown envelopes filled with cash and there might be some sort of funny business going on. at the end of the day, it comes

down to covering a lot of these cases. we've seen them all the way through. it's not about going after trump or biden. looking at the facts as presented during the investigation. there is no shortage of evidence here. the one thing that stood out to me during the documents investigation was the amount of evidence the trump's own lawyers didn't have access to as it went on because trump hit it from them. h --id it from them. trump's own lawyers were surprised or blindsided by evidence that the justice department presented. i think that was very telling. this wasn't some sort of grand scheme where the government was trying to entrap trump. they had this footage from mar-a-lago. they had these search warrants,

not search warrants subpoenas. massive battles that happen before the chief judge and d.c. was extensively litigated by multiple parties. there are massive witness list and this documents case in the january 6 case. these investigations in these cases being political, you have to turn a blind eye to the sheer amount of evidence that's presented in these indictments. the indictment lays out in excruciating detail how these mar-a-lago employees went around searching for the cctv cameras and shining their torches to figure out which camera was recording. it was event after an event and when the justice department looks at this, gives them no choice but to prosecute. host: how often do you get to

ask questions to donald trump and his lawyers compared to how often you get to talk to jack smith or alvin bragg? guest: that's an interesting question. i won't go into the sourcing specifically but the way the reporting gets done in these cases, we speak to these people all the time. we speak to trump's lawyers often. they are off the record and often it's not reportable. with the federal government side of the law, it's more difficult and more sensitive because of rules. the district attorneys want to protect the integrity of their investigation. host: it's fair to say you talk to the trump team more than the prosecution? guest: that is true. by and large, that's true and in terms of the information, i would get into that. the point is, we talked all these guys all the time. there is a lot of on the ground

reporting. i've been to mar-a-lago. i've been down to atlanta whole bunch of times. this is the way we do the job. host: still plenty of calls for you, grand rapids, michigan democrat. caller: good morning. i would like to make the point that i am a democrat i'm an american first. people break the law, get arrested and get indicted. and people who don't break the law don't get arrested and don't get indicted. we've got people on your still complaining about hillary clinton. she never got arrested. they are about to impeach biden. there's nothing to it. they just proved it with the fbi agent that's a liar. i am a democrat because i don't leave and trickle down economics. i think trump in a lot of trouble in these cases. people should not be sticking up

for him. it is america, break the law, you will get in trouble. host: you think about the fbi informant that he was referring to? guest: the court filing yesterday expanded some of the details. he was one of the fbi's informants in the hunter biden investigation. he's been charged with effectively lying to the fbi. if you look at that court filing, it describes alexander smirnov is a human wall of mirrors. that's the best way of her to put where everything he said seemed to be ally and it was impossible for the fbi to figure out what he was lying about and where he was telling the truth. they decided to charge him. what i think stood out to me was the amount of contact he had with russian intelligence officials. it was quite striking. he had continued discussions with people close to the kremlin

about all of these stories. it pulled me back to what the house foreign affairs committee found in the previous congress when they went through the senate investigation into the russia probe and the kind of hunter biden stories of allegations. because back to 2015 when there were contacts with russia. there is ways to discredit ukraine. this has a long genesis. it's been something that's been percolating through the republican party for some time and it's made its way back through david weiss with hunter biden. i think the core finding speaks for itself, when you have a liar who has been indicted who had contact with the russians and the justice department potential is seeking further perjury charges. i think that is a very strong

court filing. it was so big on detail that it was unusual in its scope. host: this is richard calling from canada, good morning. caller: good morning. the judge in new york who find president trump $355 million said it was -- said the property in mar-a-lago was only worth $18 million. it sits on 17 million acres when it two acre lot, the market value is 150 million. why shouldn't the average american think this judge is corrupt political judge trying to prosecute president trump when he lies about the value of the property and you don't hear one reporter on msnbc or cnn talk about that value that sits on 17 acres with you buildings on it. let me hear what mr. lowell has to say here. guest: this case comes down to asset values. it's also about inflating assets on one side and deflating assets

on the other. it's not about the fundamental value of these assets. we've been reporting on this and there's reason to believe some of the properties are worth more. the crux of this case as presented by the attorney general rest on trump inflating his asset values and trying to seek loan so he can pay lower rates effectively to banks and devaluing his assets when he has to pay taxes to the irs. it's not what is mar-a-lago worth. it's why was he representing two separate figures to two separate entities in a way that benefit him? that was what was being prosecuted. host: if somebody is doing that with their own home, would they be prosecuted for it when it comes to looking for a loan for something they are trying to buy and paying taxes? is that something the average person can do? guest: i don't know if they would be prosecuted for it.

it comes down to prosecute jory discretion. he was doing this in terms of his business. trump was inflating the value of his 5th avenue in square footage of histriplex multiple times over. either your apartment is 10 feet or 100 feet. i think that host: host: is the contention. this is liberty hill, texas, independent. you are on. caller: yes, hugo, i have a question to ask you. january 6, i was sitting at home and i was on facebook. i happened to see the posting by john sullivan. i thought what is going on. this john sullivan was bragging

and boasting about successfully breaking in to the capital. i said that's not happening. then i started watching his video and i was shocked. his video revealed the capitol police directing crowds of people into and throughout the capital. they were laughing and joking, fist bumping. i thought what the heck. then i happened to see -- i watch that video until they shut ashli babbitt. i couldn't believe it. that's when that ended. why is this john sullivan not being held accountable?

why is it that --host: we got your question. this is from november of last year. guest: without getting into specific cases because there are hundreds. that's for the january 6 riot defendants. it's taken time and they will identify these people and build cases with the cctv footage from the capital and charges will be forthcoming. we have spoken to a lot of capitol police officers that day. the fundamental point was they were so overwhelmed and out powered by the sheer number of people that attempted to storm the capital. there was a sense of resignation where they said we will not fight back. it comes down to safety.

there is also an element of a complete breakdown in the command and control structure of the capitol police. a lot of the lieutenants didn't know what was happening and didn't know how to respond. i would push back on the contention that the capitol police were encouraging people to storm the capital. the point with ashli babbitt was she was trying to break through glass into the speakers lobby in the capital when members of congress were there. next to the house chamber in the well, there is a corridor were members, to leave the chamber, you can go through the lobby which is a long hallway. that is a secure area of the capital. it was secured that day especially when the rioters were breaking in. the glass is not bulletproof. it is now but it wasn't then. members of congress were still trying to get out of the capital and trying to get out of the speakers lobby when ashli

babbitt tried to climb over the ornate wooden entryway into the speakers lobby. every capitol police officer i've spoken to has basically said we would do the same thing. we would protect the integrity of the speakers lobby and protect members of congress. that is their job. if anyone tries to climb into a secured zone in a way that threatens member safety, capital police will respond like that every time. i don't know if any other police -- capitol police officer would respond differently. host: you can follow hugo lowell on twitter @hugo lowell and his writing is available at the guardian.com. stick around. in about 25 minutes this morning, a conversation part of black history month where we will focus on the tulsa race messick or. we will be joined by -- we will

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>> be up-to-date in the latest in publishing with book tv's podcast about books with current nonfiction book releases plus bestseller list as well as industry news and trends through insider interviews. you can find about books on c-span now, our free mobile app or wherever you get your podcasts. ♪ >> "washington journal" continues. host: it's time for our open form, any public policy or political issue want to talk about, call in and you can do so on the usual phone lines, (202) 748-8000 for democrats, (202) 748-8001 four republicans, independences (202) 748-8002. the house and senate will not be convening today but there is still plenty going on.

stick around on c-span after our program. we will take you to an event with energy secrery jennifer granholmho will talk about the biden administration strategy to transition to renewable energy sources. that's at the national press club thi morning. you can watch it here on c-span, c-span.org and the free c-span now video app. around lunchtime at about 12:35 p.m. eastern, here on c-span, a conversation with maryland governor westmore and utah governor spencer cox who will discuss political division in this country, bipartisanship. now your phone calls, any public or political issue you want to talk about. we will start in jackson heights, new york, the line for independence. caller: good morning. i have one suggestion. i would like to see one of the

questions you have be -- would you vote for president for someone who is in prison? that's it, that's my question. host: would you vote for somebody if that person was in prison? caller: probably not. probably not. i would say no. host: why do you say probably? caller: i would sayno, it's no. host: what you think the average caller would say to that question? --caller: that's my point, i would like to know what the average person has to say. it's very interesting. i've been listening to this for a long time and i've never called in. i've never seen anyone worship a president, any president. it's unfortunate. host: do you think this country

might be in that situation? a month from now before november? caller: it seems to be getting worse. it seems to be getting much worse. it's very sad. it's a very sad situation. host: this is jeff in nebraska, good morning, republican. caller: i'd like to see you guys do one thing -- the last guy you had on there, somebody needs to come on their and show us how many documents they had, how many were top-secret and break these things down. you don't have to show what was on them but when you talk hillary clinton, the vice president who took them when he was a senator and now vice president while he was vice

president. they weren't allowed to even have documents outside the skiff. we will cut them some slack because we don't think the panel is capable -- i don't know what -- we look like a bunch of clowns. host: you don't think the classified document case as much bearing, what about the other three criminal cases facing the former president? to any of them have merit? caller: i do. i think one of them has merit. host: which one? caller: we've got a lady who said while she was running for office, i'm running for office against president trump area ok. she got her wish. now we've got another couple

that's out there spending taxpayer money running around georgia and whatever. it's a joke. host: this is dave in maryland, good morning. caller: good morning. i'm in baltimore city and i was states attorney, former states attorney getting ready to do federal time for putting false information on a loan application. host: is that mosby? guest: yes. people in this city are screaming for her head but if you turn that coin over, then they say that it's the indiscretion of the former president, trump that is, what he did in inflating the values

of his property in order to gain the same kind of advantage and loan applications, that's ok. it's fascinating to see that dynamic play out in this city. host: this is the story from the local cbs news station -- this is david from massachusetts, good morning. caller: i'm a former u.s. marine in the infantry. my main point is that for anyone who might be thinking about it,

do not join the u.s. or any military including the idf. we pay over $1 trillion per year for military and it's brought nothing but failures. we've never had as many haves and have-nots in my lifetime. we have a crowded fleet of osprey aircraft that have killed hundreds of marines now and they haven't stopped crashing since the early 2000. we have over 800 foreign military bases around the world and what does that net us for safety? does it make is any safer at all? i like to realign from another u.s. when makeup tools were one, our boys were sent out to die. this was the war to end all wars, to think he world safe for democracy. no one told them dollars and

cents where the real reasons. host: before you go, why did you join the core? caller: i was 17. i had thought about motors service -- i had thought about military service for a young age. . i was in high school when 9/11 happened. i had a good education, i knew the u.s. had trouble history of for policy in two instances in which the military was used justifiably. we started with a small professional military and rapidly expanded and modernized it. we are paying overwintering dollars a year for a military that is around the world and it doesn't make anyone any safer. host: have you and i chatted before?

caller: i have called in before. host: i remember he said he served in for lucia -- for lucia -- felujah. what was that like? caller: the most scored -- most scared i have ever been. of my multiple new debt experiences that happened in that 30 days, i did not get a lot of sleep for the first three days. it is a lot of fractured memories of being really scared is the crux of it. host: was that the moment your feelings changed about serving in the military? four was it under the moment -- for was it another moment? caller: it was another nail in the coffin.

seeing children begging outside of the camp months prior and seeing our inability to do any substance for the people we were supposed to be protecting, that was a big part of it. i still don't know exactly what the fallujah action did. the history of it was before i showed up, there was a small attempt called up like they do to political reasons, it was in election year and i was overseas. after they lost, they said now we are going. host: what do you do now? caller: i miss is no cannabis worker and an aspiring independent videogame developer. i am disabled. i cannot really work full-time

most jobs. host: you mind if i ask how old you are? caller: i am 38. host: thank you for sharing your story. joe is next, back to baltimore. caller: how are you doing? host: what is on your mind? caller: i have two statements to make. i don't know how -- trump. one thing is -- he doesn't work that much. he picked real estate. everything we do, we do to a point where it does not matter. what i'm saying is if you buy a bag of potato chips, it is not worth that much. our whole economy is built on it, that is called capitalism.

host:host: that is joe in maryland. this is al. in new jersey. caller: i think i missed the call. i heard him make the statement about the air force. i was watching. that guy made a complete full statement, what he said about that woman. i watched january 6 that morning. there was a windowpane that was broken by somebody -- she stuck her face through that hole and look through that windowpane to see in there. the secret service fellow shot her. they tried to help that poor girl. i don't know what he was income

she tried to break through doors or whatever. that was a lie. host: anchor in tennessee, good morning -- edgar in tennessee, good morning. caller: can you hear me? host: yes sir. caller: where was the property assessor on trump's property? i get my property assessed by elected official and pay my taxes by property assessor. i don't to get to make my own property assessed. in mar-a-lago, who is doing the property assessing? host: that is editor in tennessee. to steve in california, independent. caller: i have a question on the same lines. do you have to go to the das office to get a real estate transaction approved now?

you can go 20 years back and look at loans and say this one is illegal and this one wasn't? host: it sounds like we should have had hugo lowell on a little longer. open forum for another 10 minutes. ernest in philly, good morning. caller: my topic is about reparations. the slaveowners in the south were given reparations for their slaves as property. all throughout history, we did the right thing and mobs come and burn us out. throughout any state in america, you can find that situation has occurred. we have come a long way with a lot on our backs and i want to make that statement. host: do you think that

reparations are going to happen at some point in the new future? caller: i am not concerned about that, just leave us alone and stop pulling the rug out from under black people. affirmative action -- we were behind the eight by long time and we got a chance with affirmative action and all of the sudden that was pulled from under us. oh no to the fact that we were held back. hinder did what he did in that situation. -- hitler's did what he did in that situation. when we pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, stop tripping us up. host: forest, virginia. paul, independent. good morning. caller: i wanted to address the caller earlier who was incredibly concerned about

police accountability for ashli babbitt. there is an entire movement out there right now that is trying to bring police accountability to the forefront, whether we're are talking about qualified immunity or talking about the officers that shot an entire neighborhood over a falling acorn earlier this week. unfortunately, you might wins at the name of the movement. it is called black lives matter. i have to tell you, it brings things to the front of that benefit us all. we don't benefit from police being taught they are at war with their community. we don't benefit from police that draw their gun at the first sign of anything instead of

de-escalating. we need communities that actually police ourselves. we need social workers out there to address real human needs, not just people with badges that have cultivated ptsd. thank you for your time. host: that is paul in virginia. nancy is in michigan. republican. good morning. caller: i was watching sean hannity last night and people might not understand why nikki haley is still proceeding to act like she is running for any office. -- an office. gretchen whitmer put money in

her purse after she ran. if i donate, if i wanted to run for any office, people would donate to my campaign. if i did not want to really work or get the job, but because i have a christmas tree farm and i know a lot of people, they would donate to me. somebody else would win and i would spend maybe $50,000 out of the $100 -- $100,000 to run but the other $50,000 i would put in my pocket -- my purse and go shopping. host: my understanding of cap a finance laws is you cannot transfer it into your bank account but if you have unspent funds, you can use them as political donations to other causes and other groups as well. i think there are laws against transferring it into your bank account. host: that may be laws against

it, but there are legislators in michigan who want her husband to have to declare what is in his bank account from it. she is fighting it tooth and nail. host: that certainly any avenue of prosecution when it comes to campaign finance laws. by the people misuse those funds and we see those cases every cycle. about four minutes left here on open forum. this is john in columbus, ohio. caller: good morning. host: what is on your mind? caller: i just want to say this. what is going on in this country is not good for this nation.

because of the stuff going on in our country, i just hope america will retreat from this foolishness and come together so that this country can go --. this country has a lot of people . that is what i wanted to say. i hope we know what we are doing. host: lexington, michigan is next. jim. republican. caller: the gentleman you had on earlier, i have done some searching on him while he was talking to you. i did not get a chance to say anything but he told a lot of lies about a lot of things. host: andrew from durham, north carolina. you are next. caller: how are you? host: doing well. caller: the reason i am calling,

i am a vietnam veteran. i know how people sacrificed their kids like they did in iraq. i watched these congressmen sit back and demonize our military. most of them are pretty well-off and they don't have to wait about their kids going to get killed. they talk this nonsense about how weak our military is. i can't see anyone of them making you through basic training in our military. these people are protecting us. that is what burns me up about it. you have kids getting killed while you are smoking cigars and not doing anything constructive. host: there was a caller earlier in our open forum, a veteran who

is encouraging people want to join the military or any military in the world. considering your comments, would you want your child or grandchild to join the military. caller: my youngest son joined, he just retired. he went to iraq three times. once he got out and retired, he said it was miserable. my wife did not want him to go. kids getting killed in the street. [indiscernible] if that is what you want to do, do it. the people -- they have money like donald trump. that is a joke. people are not supposed to be in the military are suffering. that is a joke.

people need to know the truth. you have got power, you don't do that. it is regular people who protect you. host: our last caller in open forum. 45 minutes let's come in that time we will be joined by author hannibal johnson. he wrote a book. he will join us as part of our black history month series after the break. >> get contact information for members of government when you preorder your copy of c-span's congress directory. important information on congressional committees, the president's cabinet, and state governors. the directory cost $29.95, plus

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c-span now, your front row seat to washington anytime, anywhere. ♪ >> the c-span bookshelf caught -- podcast allows you to listen to nonfiction books in one place. we are making it convenient for you to listen to old leather so it's with authors discussing history, biography, kurt events. about books, book notes plus command q&a. this is to c-span's bookshelf podcast fees today. you can listen for free on the c-span now mobile app or wherever you get your podcasts and on our website, c-span.org/podcasts. >> "washington journal" continues. host: throughout black history month, we spend time focusing on several aspects of effort

written history. once again, we are joined by hannibal johnson, the author of "black wall street 100." hannibal johnson, what and where was black wall street for viewers who may not know? guest: black wall street is the historic african-american community in tulsa, oklahoma, created during any era of segregation around 1906. it is a neighborhood within the context of the city of tulsa. host: what happened in that neighborhood 103 years ago? guest: the neighbors refer to it as black wall street because of the incredible black entrepreneurship and commerce that existed within the community. a plethora of business establishments, a group of black professionals, doctors, lawyers, dentists, contests --

accountants occupied this blackberry in tulsa. it was separated from downtown tulsa by the tracks. many people may be aware of the calamity that occurred here in 1921 referred to as the 1921 tulsa race massacre when the black community was almost obliterated in this mob frenzy of racialized violence. host: how many people died and at started the violence? guest: some experts believe between 100 and 300 people were killed in the massacre. hundreds more were injured. scores of homes and businesses were destroyed. at least 1250 private homes were destroyed during the massacre. the causes of the massacre are many and varied.

it is important to understand the context. racial violence was occurring throughout the u.s. during this period. two years prior, james johnson referred to pop the summer as red summer. fred was a metaphorical reference to the blood that flowed in america's streets because of racial violence. the other thing happening throughout the u.s. during this period is lynching, a form of the mystic terrorism aimed primarily at african-americans. we have this racial crucible that exists throughout the u.s. answer to the existence in tulsa. in tulsa, we have a prosperous black community, really sitting on land that was desired by white leadership in the community for railroad purposes and other commercial purposes. we have jealousy of the white

community with respect to the black community. this was a period when the eddy elegy of white super missy reigned supreme. to have these black people owning homes, driving cars, wearing beautiful clothes was unacceptable in the minds of some folks. people are generally familiar with the ku klux klan which had an enormous presence in the 1920's. that was a factor. add to the mix the media and in particular one local media outlet, he did the afternoon newspaper called the tulsa tribune. we have this tinderbox or powder cake in tulsa needing only some catalyst to ignite the racial violence that occurred on may 31 and june 1 of 1921. host: the tulsa world earlier this month, especially for john

black history month, notable oklahomans and state history. you mentioned -- you are mentioned of one of the notable oklahomans for your work on researching and writing about the tulsa race massacre. they write your work has played a role in bringing attention to a subject long ignored with over 100 people dead, 1000 buildings destroyed, this massacre that happened. how does something like that get to be ignored? guest: it is ignored as a deliberate decision on the part of people who are in power and occupy positions of privilege. tulsa, when the massacre occurred in 1921 was on an upward trajectory. it became known as the oil capital of the world. a lot of folks in tulsa,

particularly in white also leadership wanted to minimize the tragedy of the massacre and varnishing the reputation of the city of tulsa. for that reason, it was swept under the carpet. in the black community, we have to think about ptsd. that is part of the reason in the black community the massacre was not discussed and minimized if it was discussed. the people empowered to create curricula for our schools made the deliberate decision not to include that as part of what oklahomans learn about oklahoma history. for decades, this history was largely kept under wraps. host: when did we first get the term tulsa race massacre? when was that incident referred

to with those words? caller: wendy is -- guest: when this incident occurred, these were referred to as race riots. in the last 10 years or so, there is a movement within the like community to take charge of nomenclature, to change the name to something many people believed to be a better descriptor of what happened. from riot to massacre. we can talk about what other terms might be used to describe this event. for me personally, i tell people that critical thinking around nomenclature is important to me. it is not what you settle on, it is that you understand different words have different connotations and naming something is an important element of claiming that event. host: a few of hannibal

johnson's works, "black wall street 100." he is with us this morning until 10:00 a.m. eastern as part of this week's series focusing on black history month. you can join the conversation originally. if you're in the central or eastern time zone, it is 202-748-8000. if you are in the mountain or pacific time zone, it is 202-748-8001. perhaps we will get it also resident to call in during the segment. who is viola fletcher? guest: viola fletcher is one of the living individuals who was alive at the time of the maac in 1921. host:tilllive today and has testified before congress about the tulsa race massacre.

i want to play viewers a minute or so of her testimony back in may 2021 around the 100th anniversary of the tulsa race massacre. >> the city of tulsa and the chamber of commerce told us the massacre didn't happen, like we did not see it with our own eyes . you have me here right now, you see my brother. we lived this history and we cannot ignore it. it is our lives with us. we lost everything that day, our homes, our churches, our newspapers, our theaters. what represented all of what was best for black people in america and for all of the people.

no one cared about us for almost 100 years. we and our history have been forgotten, washed away. this congress must recognize us and our history. for black america, for the white americans, and all americans. host: that happened in may 2021. what does that testimony represent and what was ms. fletcher asking of congress that they? guest: it is important to hear the voices of people who lived three events like the tulsa race massacre. we now have the black wall street history center which includes voices of many of the individuals who were alive during the period of the massacre. they gave testimony to a state convened commission that meant

from 1997 to 2001 and their audio was recorded. we use some of their testimony in presenting information about the massacre in the context of the museum. those voices are important to help us understand what transpired and how it affected real people in real time during those events. host: ms. fletcher announced last year she was going to release in memoir that's going to release a memoir on her expenses with this topic. has she done that? guest: she has. host: have you read that? guest: i have not gotten a chance to read it. i talked to a number of survivors back when there were more than 100 survivors living. talking to them, what i

discovered what they wanted more than anything else is to have their story told, to make sure peop understand what happens to them in part so that such an event never happens again. host: who was event ellis? guest: he was one of the three individuals who had a legal suit against the city and others on appeal right now. he died within the last two or three months. host: we are talking about because of race massacre. its memory, its impact not just in tulsa but in this country today. phone lines are split regionally if you want to join the conversation. hannibal johnson, the author of several subjects on this topic. up first active though and, maryland. the shout of the first step --

the first up out of boone, maryland. caller: client disturb listing today to the callers before -- i am disturbed to today listening to the college before. a lot of people don't understand the impact of the violence and bloodshed by black people in this country. to me, they don't want to understand. it is the antithesis of what has happened to black people. i was talking to my mother yesterday about my great-grandmother. i was six or seven years old when she said to me -- i am 53 years old now. she said to me that she remembers when white men dragged a black man to the streets

behind horse carts. i was six years old. i didn't understand horse carts. i need to get people to understand that these older people who went through and saw all these tragic things, she also talked about black people being tarred and feathered and hung and burned. people don't get it, they don't understand it. these people went through such tragic things. i believe my great-grandmother was getting me ready for this reality that black people live even today. that is all i have to say. people don't understand it and they don't understand that we need compensation. these people lost property, lives, lab hoods -- livelihoods,

generational wealth. it angers me to the point of what is america doing? host: that is erica in buoy, maryland. guest: she makes a number of important points. one point is that teaching our real history, a people's history of the united states is imperative. we cannot possibly understand why we have the racial dynamics we have today if we do not understand our history. another point is about the legacy of these horrific periods in our history, like the period during which the massacre occurred in pool-side in 1921. sociologists refer to that as their lowest point of racial relations in america because of

lynchings and these race riots and the jim crow era. the historical racial trauma and embedded in the history of our country has to be acknowledged and has to be addressed if we are never to realize our full potential -- ever to realize our full potential. powerful potential can only be realized if we validate and leverage the shared humanity that exists in each and every one of us. host: you mentioned a people's history, reminiscent of the book . it came out in 2009. what is a people's history? guest: a people's history is a recognition that there are multiple narratives and multiple

dimensions of our history. history is not simply the dominant culture's version of events. history involves a multiplicity of voices, a mosaic of different experiences. if we can understand that and we can make sure that approach is the way we construct our curricula, we will be better off having known the stories, the various strands of our history that contributes to the whole. host: in texas, this is jim. caller: visit two days in a row we have had great guests. one of the things that mr. woodson remarked on was the black on black homicide taking

anyone here as many lives as a civil rights. i'm curious as two things. do you think the condition of black communities, the highlight of black on black homicide, do think that is linked to events in tulsa? the story of pulse is a tragedy. nobody would say differently would the story should be told so these things don't repeat. i don't know how often in recent history that kind of event has repeated. my question is if you were to write the history -- black on black homicide,, little bit about what he would highlight?

-- tell me a little bit about what you would highlight? guest: i do a lot of work with the police here and it also and i have over a decade, building a better relationship between the police and the various constituent communities the police serve. i don't think in terms of black on black crime. specifically mentioning homicides, homicide usually is a crime that involves people in close proximity to one another, people who know one another. we can talk about hispanic crime . it is an approximate kind of occurrence.

one of the things you raise is this idea that ecologists -- sociologists call internalized oppression. sometimes oppressed people pick up on the negative self-evaluation that comes in a racialized society. if you are a person who devalues himself or herself, it is in some ways easier to engage in violence against people who are like you. that is a psychological dynamic that happens in society in which ritualization is a huge factor. host: coming back to viola fletcher's testimony before

congress and a forgotten tragedy, where there other forgotten massacres on the level of tulsa that happened in the u.s.? guest: there are a number of historical racial tragedies that occurred throughout the u.s. in 1919, in elaine, arkansas, a so-called right. longview, texas. any outbreak in baltimore, washington, d.c., memphis, more than 24 major so-called race riots in america in 1919. most of our listeners -- i guess most of our listeners are unaware of those occurrences. one of the callers referred to a horrific lynching she was told about. these lynchings that occurred,

this violence on african-americans, these were often hangings, sometimes burnings, mutilations, castration's. these were public spectacles and children often witnessed this violence. let me tell you one of the lynchings that occurred, it occurred here in oklahoma in 1911. it was imaging of a woman named laura nelson and her son. they were lynched from a bridge, postcards were made of the lynching, children witnessed the lynching, including a young woody guthrie. host: what did they do with postcards? guest: this serves the surface

-- the purpose postcards serve, they were sent to friends and relatives around the country celebrating the fact that the offender had done these events. host: perry in atlanta, georgia. caller: mr. johnson, thank you for being with us. i have a question to ask, but first i need to say that i'm disappointed about the gentleman from texas talking about black homicide. you usually tell people to stick to the topic and that is not the topic. the topic is about tulsa. there's also the rosewood incident for people who don't know about that.

imagine postcards, there were postcards at the tolson incident also. i want to know if there was an investigation done by the bureau of investigation before it became the fbi. i ask that because i watched the movie "killers of the flower mood -- flower moon." that happens around the same time as the total race rights. the bureau came out to investigate the killings of native americans. i wonder if there is an investigation done by the federal government and if there was a cause for reparations, this is a cause. thank you very much. you can actually see the few ditch -- the footage of the riots and you can see there were

plans -- planes flying over dropping cans of gasoline. it was awful. the footage is on youtube, several documentaries you can see. i urge everybody to go out there and look at these so you can see this is documented about what happened and it was atrocious. host: mr. johnson? guest: i don't know of any investigation by the fbi. the most thorough investigation came years later with the convening of the oklahoma commission to study the tulsa race riot of 1921. a statewide body was convened. it is available online at the website. that was a thorough evaluation

of all of the situation leading up to the massacre and the massacre itself. the charge was to make recommendations with regard to reparations. the commission recommended five different types of reparations, payments to survivors and there were 100 or more living survivors. payments to areas of survivors who could document property loss , the establishment of a scholarship fund benefiting descendants of those who suffered during the massacre. economic development incentives for redevelopment in the black community and some substantial monument or memorial. those are the types that were recommended by the statewide commission. host: what came of those five recommendations? guest: there were never any tax

payments made. there was these devilish bit of a scholarship fund. -- the establishment of a scholarship fund. it was brought into in memory to and attributed to the massacre but not limited to the descendants of the massacre. there was a body said to look at -- set up to look at economic development within the black wall street community but that was not funded so nothing ever came of that. the state did in fact invest a small about of money come around 1.5 to two in dollars in decree patient -- the creation of a park that memorializes the massacre and survivors and the history surrounding the massacre. host: north carolina, this is howard. caller: good morning. i appreciate the truth of what

is happening in america back then and now. there is a scripture in the bible, i am not going to deviate from the topic but the scripture in the bible. you can go to oppose it chapter four, verse six. there is a gentleman who said black on black crime -- i'm not going to divert from it. my black brothers and sisters are getting guns like candy. i know there's no black mini factor of -- it can only lead to one person. this is my question. i know donald went to tulsa a few years back. it brought more recognition to the topic of what is happening. you know january 6, that same

act was upon our country. they call it a right, but it was an insurrection. even in tulsa it was an insurrection, a coup to take over that government to establish their own government. one gentleman said is there any correlation of the history. maybe that might answer his question. it was done the same way. host: host: i will let you jump in. guest: one of the interesting things about the massacre is that we know law enforcement deputized some of the white men in the mob that invaded and destroyed lee greenwood community. that official sanction of the violence really resonates given wh y said about insurrection on january 6.

there is that one small parallel. host: to tulsa, oklahoma. this is mark. caller: good to talk to you. this is mark cunningham. i was born in the year of love, 1969 in tulsa, went through high school, led by the trail of tears, had an indian history teacher teach me this. memorial high school at the time was elite, like rich kids. even though i wasn't rich, i was in that group. it is a different place now. winning state championships in basketball every season.

it is a beautiful thing. the integration is the best thing that has happened. most people in tulsa are not racist. we are all some sort of spade. where the difference is the love. the more we connect with each other, the better off we are. i feel our media makes us hate each other. look what is going on right now. we have people wanting to bring their luck to this country. they want to assimilate, they want to be part of this and yet we are treating them like -- our country is treating them like secondary people because they don't have this badge. would like to demonize them and say they are rapists and

murderers and that they bring over fentanyl which is true for probably one out of 1000. what i want to go to is the history of what happened. i read a little bit about it, i've been to greenwood. pastor keith, i don't know if you know him, at the church there where everybody went in the basement. i played poker with him. this is my question, what really happened? i read about a guy named diamond, a shoeshine or come everybody loved him. he shined shoes of elite white people. the white people loved him. he got caught in the elevator kissing a girl. i am told they went off and goat married and nobody heard about him. host: we will let hannibal johnson jump in. guest: it is important to go

back to the context for the violence in tulsa and remember what was america like in 1921? it was an awfully violent period , a difficult time to be lack. -- to be black. there were racial incidents, not just the rights, but the lynching. the successful black community here in tulsa in a place and at the u.s. where the prevailing ideology is that of white supremacy. we have jealousy and envy and all of those factors with respect to the economic well-being of the black community. you have a domestic terrorist group called the clan which is a popular social group among the white community that is growing

throughout the state of oklahoma. and you have a media publishing articles that are incendiary and inflammatory and stoking the flames of racial discord. because of these factors, you have a combustible mix. you need something on the 289 this -- to ignite this mix and cause an explosion. that something was the incident he referred to which is a way to prevent a black boy on an elevator. that is not the cause of the violence. it is a precipitator, but not the fundamental cause. host: to stephen in memphis, tennessee. caller: my first concern is the gentleman that spoke from texas in regard to mass murder among

black people. i want to say -- somewhere there was a law passed considers -- a law passed concerning black farmers. they passed a law that what happened in oklahoma defiled under the junction where the type of reverse -- type of reimbursement? host: you're talking -- guest: you're talking broadly about the concept of reparations which means to repair damage done. there are competitions going on even as we speak in this community about reparations.

city council passed a resolution apologizing for the massacre and creating these conversations to follow up on the recommendations made by the statewide commission i referenced. those conversations have been had. there is on the table some recommendations from the community as to how we repair the damage from the losses that occurred in 1921. that includes further education and curriculum reform, the possibility of payments to certain individual survivors, the possibility of economic investments targeting the black community, a whole range of options as to how we repair what was lost. i want to point out that some people believe after the massacre in 1921 which almost

obliterated the black community, that was the end of the story. that was not the end of the story. the real end of the story is what i call the story of the indomitable human many people valid it would not be moved, they would rebound and rebuild after the massacre, which stated. the national league -- national negro league had its conference here in tulsa. the peak of the community is in the mid-1940's. it was integration and urban renewal that caused a second decline in the 1960's and 1970's, cost properties to be bought up, caused the interstate to be plowed through the center of the successful black community. yes, reparations and commands --

and amendments are something we are working to figure out and how best we can try to repair some of the damage that was rocked from the 1921 massacre -- wrought from the 1921 massacre. host: just a few more minutes with hannibal johnson, the author of "black wall street 100." we head over to any event with the energy secretary so we will try to get a few more door calls. this is philip. thanks for waiting. caller: i appreciate the opportunity. i think it is great that you can bring out all of this information of history so that it can -- the damages that have been done. are you familiar with dr.

francis enter theories on racism in america -- and her threes on racism in america? her view is that it stems from that the dna of black people is more dominant in terms of skin complexion and that plays a major role in racism. i am also a believer ina -- in the fact that racism in america has grown as a sidebar to violence. people sometimes look for someone to beat down or be the person you can say i am better than for the nature of psychology and human species. when you put all of that together, i think the dimensions of helping america become better than it is issue dealt into

psychology and sociology of racism. host: let me give hannibal johnson a chance to jump in. guest: i agree with your last statement, understanding psychology and psychology -- and sociology of racism is important. grace is a social construct -- is a -- race is a social construct which is to say that race is a human creation. there is more biological differences within races as between races. race is something we created and we have to understand as best we can how, who, why, etc. around that creation. fundamental for me is the imperative that we recognize the shared humanity of other people.

if we did that, we would not have these race riots or race massacres. we would not have matching's -- lynchings, these turbulent intercultural relations that we have today. recognizing these notions of what we share is humanity and validating that humanity between and among people and among people is critical to our human relations. host: rockville, maryland. good morning. caller: my mom is from tulsa. she still has a large number of siblings that live in tulsa. my question to you is, i have been to the black wall street memorial. i have seen the plaques in the

sidewalks where black businesses were in 2012 -- were in 1921. what are the percentages of black businesses now want black wall street? he mentioned the fairway. i remember visiting my grandparents as a little girl and they had to move because a freeway was going through there. my question is, what is the percentage of black-owned businesses on wall street today? guest: black wall street is a really integrated diverse community that includes commercial spaces and residences. i don't know the exact percentage of black businesses but there are several. i am sitting as we speak on black wall street on the corner of greenwood and archer.