r online at c-span.org. ■u♪ announcer: nonfiction book lovers, c-span has a number of podcasts for you. on the afterwards podcast and on q&a, hear wide-ranging conversations with nonfiction authors and others making things happen. book episodes are a weekly hour-long conversation that regularly future fascinating authors of nonfiction books on a wide variety of topicss. in the about books podcasts takes you behind the scenes of hing industry with insider interviews, industry updates, and bestsellers' lists. download the free c-span now app or wherever you get your podcast, and on ourc-span.org/p. back to ourrogram,

author of the book "the working-class republican." henry olsen on the future of the republican party. i want to start with your thoughts on senator mitc mcconnell' last week to step down as senate republican leader in november. what dofuture of the republican party? guest: i think it is the passing of an era that mitch, has been leader longer than any leader can technically since 2007 but it was clear he was slowing down by many steps. he is 82 years old, a time for him to step down. i think what it will show is that the republican party is becoming more of a maga party, that the senate is one of the last holdouts. bu there, maga friendly or hard maggot members -- maga members have a share of the caucus. host: who will be sitting in

that seat at the leadership table? guest: that is one of the great things that one does not know until i hope it would be someboe tom cotton or marco rubio, someone who is respected on both sides of that divide. it could be somebody who comes out of left field. it could be the young senator from alabama, although she has only been in the senate a year and a half so that would be a huge jump up. it cannot be somebody who would be a thorn in the side of the leadership. the point is to get unity, not re-create the dysfunction of the house, but somebody who canectet members, respected by maga members, and help ■8 producer unity by giving the maga members a larger voice. that is what they should be aiming for and what i think they will get. host: how will mitch mcconnell's relationship with donald trump shape his legacy? guest: defining feature because he always kept it from being a defining feature of him.

i think over the years as he fades from the scene, we will have to ask questions, which is, why didn't he use his bully pulpit more effectively to try to educate republicans or steer republicans away so t saw both the flaws and virtues of donald trump? most people or the majority of republicans think donald trump is a savior or hero. the fact is people in washington see a different side of him quieter, which produced short-term unity but is helping produce long-term disunity we are seeing now. host: have you seen that side of donald trump? guest: i never met the president. i heard about it from a lot of people. i don't want to share stories i have been told in confidence. suffice it to say he is not always the decisive leader he portrays himself to be. host: what do you think happens tomorrow?

is it time for nikki haley to race if she as expected is not expected toit c5 states? guest: i think nikki haley is trying to preserve a seat for establishment republicanism in a maga dominated table. if she win four more states or jurisdictions that includes the her name placed in nomination on the floor. while she would lose that, that means she has something to bargain with donald trump with over things like the issuance of a platform where the content of the platform or whether or not she offers her endorsement. trump respects strength. go head-to-head with him in some way and exert some leverage on him so i think he would be willing to make a deal if she has something to bring to the table, but right the ability to be nominated, she is acumen leading a few delates but he would be nominated and

control the floor and i think that is what he values. host: define establishment republicanism and how much of the republican party is establishment republicanism right now. guest: establishment republicanism i would say is the substantial in voting numbers but almost insubstantial in terms of members, moderate republicans that they seem to remain, 10% to 20% of the party, people who say# they are modere and also say they are republican. they are pretty much unrepresented right now and are part of the old establishment. you have the pre-trump people to adhere to a view of reaganism that they would prefer not to cast aside and it is proby so is betweequrepublicans who will uny vote for truck, at least the old reaganites conservatives, but

would like to have a larger seat at the table in the second term, and i think that is what she is fighting for. host: a minute ago, you mentioned katie britt as a potential somebody who could have a seat at the table in republican senator leadership. she is sent to give the response to the state of the union on thursday night. what should she say? guest: i expect katie britt will deliver a very articulate impassioned opposition to bideni m. she is very good at telling the problems that have arisen over the past as which means she is t one of the old generation people. she is squarely in the middle of the age bracket, close to the median age of an american, somebody who can bring a new generational different perspective to an older message, and i suspect that is exactly

what she will do. host: to bring it back to mcconnell for a second, your recent piece, where we started this conversation, you said it is the signal for joe biden. his turn is next. guest: poll shows joe biden is massively in trouble. trump was ahead by five points nationally. let's remember with a tilt in the eltoe towards the republicans, donald trump does not need to win the popular vote at all to be reelected as president. he only needs to lose it by a couple points or less, so to be leading by five points suggests joe biden is looking at electoral wipeout. maanother question from the poll that shows a large majority of americans think joe biden is to all. he is going to be 82, which is the age mitch mcconnell is right now. his party and probably himself to be very well served if he

were to stepx7 in august and permit an open convention, but politicians being politicians, they have spent decades climbing the greasy polls to get to the top. joe biden is at the top. it is very hard to walk away when you are at the top. host: you mentioned the new york times paul. the latest one is out today. the question that was asked to is joe biden too old to be an effective president? 73% say they either somewhat agree with that or strongly agree with that. guest: yeah, look, it is a glaring issue for the president. he is clearly somebody who has lost many steps, and i am not saying he is senile or demented, which are the sorts of things you hear on conservative media, but it is clear this is a guy can only focus for a few hours a day. it is clear this is a guy struggles under pressure to have

coherent -- to think coherently or at least speak coherently. and this isthe hardest job in the world . he is not going to get any better. ne to recognize one's limit. if hubris gets you to the top, the ability may help preserve your legacy. host: democrats responded recently with 20 out gaffes by the front or times were you confused one name for another. do you think that is effective? host: it is trying -- guest: it is starting to get through but people are seeing joe biden. 75% say he is to all. it is not something people have said. the glare will be on donald trump the next few months in a way it has not been since his presidency. s to do things like mess people's names up or put dates out of order or so forth, i think that might come up right now it is the sort of message that partisans,

the already converted are talking about, but it will take time and more examples for the swing voter in the middle to say maybe we have a problem in both directions. host: half an hour until the end of our program and a half hour left with henry olsen from the columnist with the washingtoner post as well. phone numbers to call in. republicans, it is (202) 748-8001. mocrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. we will start on that one for independents in the land of 10,000 lakes,gary hung up in mi. to anne in arlington, virginia. good morning. caller: good morning. i am independent. calling about a comment and earlier caller made that there were no guns at the capitol on january 6. that is a common talking point

of the republican party, and it is wrong. there were guns found on capitol grounds. some man had been charged with that. and also, it is very important to realize thatthe only deadly d numerous other weapons were found on capitol grounds and inside the capitol, includings,k devices, one used on an officer and caused the officer to have a heart attack. there were various kinds of chemical sprays. what was sprayed on an officer who the next day had two strokes and died. police batons were taken from the police, ryan shields. flags were used as weapons, including being thrown as experienced. fire extinguishers, metal signs,

metal rods, metal fences, poles, hockey sticks, and firecrackers. so there were many weapons that were found on capitol grounds and in the capitol being used by the rioters. also, you have to remember a ■large number of officers, because there were so many, they were not able to be apprehended and charged on that date and they were charged much later, so they could have had weapons. host: to your point aboutt lasth with new january 6 footage that has beenz released showing a rit or firing a gun in the air during the capitol attack. that story got a lot of attention if you weeks ago. henry olsen on the ongoing legacy of january 6. guest: it wasn't a terrible, awful day. the's house in a way that even the white house is in.

assaulting american law-enforcement officers to break their way in because you have been deluded that something oc occurred, it was just a terrible day. not everyb is equally guilty. some people were let in. some people were cut up in the moment. other people knew exactly what they were doing and should be charged and published to the full extent of the law. host: nowe try gary in minnesota, independent. go ahead. the capitol is not protected that good. they should have doors that automatically shut and locked, steel doors, and every story should have windows that they can because this is just an example that happened. agif all of these protesters were not protesters that trump said he put in there, which was wrong, but why don't they do some moreeci would havet

come out of the started coming up, they could gas all of espeo. host: got your point. henry olsen, on this idea of protecting the capitol, a discussion about -- it comes up every ■, while -- putting up a fence around the u.s. capitol, how you mak's house, he access and security on capitol hill, certainly a question even more in the news since january 6 but not something we did not talk about before that. guest: right. you need to have access. i do not want to see the capital ofheatest country in the world fenced off, walled off, and treated like it is a citadel of some that said, we need to have it be secure as well and i secure on .

people pointed fingers in different directions but the fact is there were not enough people well enough trained to hold back the crowd, and itas enti p that a crowd like that would riot, and it is unconscionable that the security situation on january 6 was allowed to deteriorate to the point where people could rather easily force their way in and create the mayhem that they did. host: in wisconsin, alan, independent. good morning. caller: good morning. first i should point out that i actually am running for president of the student loan issue. i will cancel loans and replace the failed big government lending scam. my point to republicans as there is no way they can win this election. people who are underwater on their student loans. more than half of them are independent or republican and they will. without happened in michigan and

nevada and 2020 and it will only get worse for the republicans. henry and his republicancollegef education and to not cancel what is interest inoy to desk interest in predatory student loan debt. sorry, henry, but shame on you. you and your so-called conservative friends. host: got your point. henry olsen on student debt loan cancellation. guest: it would be nice if the person that just spokeatter. student loan cancellation would cost the united states under the billions of dollars, and it needs to be done by law. the biden administration tried too itnd it constitution that ms that are appropriated need to be appropriate by congress and if yoe debt, it needs to be something that is done by congress and congress we need to

decide whether or not it wants to have that bottom line. i think it is a mainlyted proble are people who are significantly harmed by debt they cannot repay, reasonably be expected to repay, and i think it is unconscionable that colleges have no skin in the game. they admit people knowing they are marginal at best candidates for college. people borrow five figure loans, drop out, and the colleges have no skin in the game. if colleges want to get the benefit of federally subsidized student loans, the need to have skin in the game so that they people they admit do not end up repaying, and the fact is i think it is much more harmful for somebody who kind of gets sucked into college without knowing what they do and then being burdened with $15,000 in debt than it is for someone who graduates from law school and

has a large debt but also a large income. host: what is it going to take for change their pricing structure and the loan structure? guest: federal action. colleges are -- most colleges in this country are public, not private, particularly the ones that have the largest number of students that are archly noncompetitive in their admissions practice, and it will take federal action that forces them to havepa share out of their endowments or their current income for people who default on their? debts who incurred them at those institutions, and i think if you gave colleges skin in the game, they would find a way to refigure their balance sheets so they are able to opera who can't complete a degree as opposed to make money off of people that they know at the outset are going to drop out. host: just about 20 minutes left

with henry olsen this morning from the ethics and public policy center, frequent guest on this p:00 a.m. eastern. by the way, expecting a decision to come down from the supreme a.m. eastern. the expectation is that it is the 14th amendment access case, the colorado case that was argued on februarycq 8 before te supreme court super tuesday -- before the supreme court. orrow. what is your expectation for the supreme court if it is the case that comes down? what do you think they will say, henry olsen? guest:what legal experts have said and the questioning at them3 coud be shd not rule that trump can stay on the ballot. the question will be the number of justices. will it be a 6-3 or 7-2 decision? or will it be unanimous so the cratic appointed justices go along with it?

a unanimous go any direction that makes those justices happy, and i would expect that we will possibly see that unanimous decision, but i think there are many grounds on which they could or interpret the 14th amendment that will permit trump to be on the ballot and i don't know which one of those they ll on de supreme court how hard is it presidential immunity should go? guest: i do not think the president is above the law. i do not think that the■] president should be prosecuted for official decisions that they knowledge that they intended to violate a law, especially if that law were something that were not politically fraught, to say that in the reagan years we had the banned american aid.

i don't think president reagan, even if he had known, and he always argued that he did not know, that his administration was violating the law, but that is a political thing and i don't think you should be held liable for th, but the so of things a president does that is not within the scope of presidential duties or doing something that violates a non-politically fraught law like or murder or something, absolutely the president should be helliable. we are a nation of laws, not human beings. i think the president is a human being and needs to be subject to the law without being subject to political persecution in the sorts of arguments trump has been making our way to broad for any sort of reasonable democratic republic to admit. host: (202) 748-8001 for republicans if you want to chat with henry olsen this mornin8-8. independents, (202) 748-8002. mentioned your senior that you are a senior fellow at the --

mentioned you are senior fellow at ethics and public policy center. remind the viewers what that is. guest: applying judeo-christian values across the issues, and we do that on education. we do that on questions of life. we do that on questions of tech regulation. we do that on a host of other issues, and i think we do it very well. host: if you want, check them out online. this is tony coming from tampa on the republican line. good morning. caller: yeah, hi. i just wanted to say that i disagree with everything biden hasbut i will give him credit fr one thing. he said what he was going to do and he has kept his promises. on the other hand, trump to build a wall. he built actually 44 miles of wall. what hepé built was bad. you see them cutting right through it.

number two, he promised to get rid of obamacare. he grew it by taking the tax off of it. number three, promised■3ohe rann dollars debt in four yrsg moneyg money from tariffs. he ran 0% interest rates to boost the stock market up, which caused $1 trillion in credit card debt trillion in student loan debt. so in that case, i don't have any faith in either one of those guys to turn this country around next election, and the guy that would have turned it around, ron ■f shame because he is the only guy in my opinion that would have kept his and straightened this country out like it should have been. and one last comment, on the student loan debt, you let these,ust -- these colleges

assume the risk, set their own interest rates, give the scholarships to theythe best che loan money paid from, and it will also bring tuition down at the same time because when the government gets involved, education, that steady check starts coming in, the price keeps rising up for everybody. host: thanks for the call from tampa. henry olsen, ron desantis and back to student loans. guest: ron desantis got into the race with a lot of hoopla, got into the race with a significant public backing and basically spent the first five months of the race losing support mainly to donald trump. i think that is something that he has to look at. why is it at he not only did not make a sale to republican voters or enough of them, but why did he lose support? he has had a very strong record as governor of florida, but it

did not translate on the national scale and he needs to ask himself why. again of if people are going to be uncerwhether tho college or they misunderstand their likely employment afterwards, they are being sucked into taking out debt because they dit while they aren the interest is either forgiven or deferred depending on the program and the sort of loan that they have. anna colleges or the professional schools have no skin in the game. this encourages people to take out too much debt. it encouragellentities to lure e in. think both of these are significant problems especially the one where the entities get the money and they have no risk of loss admitting a marginally qualified student gives]c a university or professional school, and you are not on the

hook for the person whog and congress needs to change that. host: to abby out of chicago, independent. good morning. you have to turn your tv down for ok. host: it will ma ia lot easier to hear you. go ahead. caller: good morning. hi. am i on? host: yes. caller: hi. why in henry olsen's opinion have the democratic party not found a way to have a message that resonates a little better or find really any messaging that resonates with some of trump's voters? some of the voters would have historically aligned with the they have had years to understand the term voting base about why the democrats have not been able to tap into at least some of these voters and their

problems and concerns. thank you. host:guest: there is a democratc election analyst writes about this all the time and write about the influence of white progressives who care more about cultural issues that they do about economic issues and take stances on those issues that are well out mainstream of american opinion, particularly for working-class people. ays you are in a hole, stop digging. the democratic party continues to dig and president biden seems unwilling to directly confront that and say you can be a ■ndemocrat and say this, but you can also be a democrat and believe this. what we have seen is that former who were democrats all of their lives or most of the time until the 2010s are not interested in looking at the party that left them and voters of color the last four years are increasingly turning

away from the direct p the demoy leadership, which is largely white progressives, seem to want to keep digging the hole that got them there. that is a real problem and i don't know how they will change that. post, calling at the paradox that will shape the 2024 election. if the paradox of biden's, the president sees himself as champion of the working class but cannot rely on it support to win reelection. to prevail, mountain about us from the college educated voters. there is a paradox ieds on white working-class votes in small towns in the countryside but the policy remains geared to the interest of high earners and investors, many of whom fled the party. the twin paradoxes are central he writes to the outcome of election 2024. guest: i think he got it right on the head. there is one thing with the democrats, that they are the

party in power and that gives the republicans a little bit of an edge, particularly since trump takes on some issues the voters care about. they do care about restricting trump respects and echoes that view. they do care about entitlements, and he says we will not touch entitlements. while i would prefer a republican party that more extensy working-class economic opportunity as well as risks, the fact is enough. the economic issues that working-class voters are concerned about, the paradox that ej talksbout is mot if trus reelection and the republicans win control of congress than it will in 2024. host: in florida, betty, democrat. caller: good morning. good morning to you. i am soon to be 92 years old and alof this earth came with a mother and a father.

hey constantly saying president biden is too old? we all are going to have all parents. that is why people throw their parents away in the nursing home, because they are so old. to say he is too old. i just can't believe it. i will be 92 yrs and i happily raised seven children, grandchildren, and they all hover around me like i am 15 years old. i can't put somebody on washington boulevard and say all of this stuff. they don't -- truck does not have respect for nobody. he seems like something that doesn't know his abcs, the stuffy essay. :qi am a black woman. still, they could read and write with others. like someone who never had

school.i am sorry . known to put people down but it is a shame to go on from the young people and they take everything you say and will not vote for president biden. he can have one leg in the grave.if i am thinking host: henry olsen back to the age issue henry olsen,hat henry -- henry olsen, back to the age issue. guest: as you mentioned a few minutes ago, 73% say he is too old to be president. they see him in action. it is not that they think he is too old to have a functio■bng and de life but the presidency requires a degree of energy. it requires a degree of focus. it requires a degree of articulatenessto be able to bri.

that is why people say he is too old.i do think they want to senm to the nursing home, but they don't what the white house to be the country's nursing home. host: tim in pennsylvania, republican. good morning. you are on with henry olsen. tim, you have to stick by your phone. good morning. caller: yes, am i on? host: yes, sir. caller: ok,ut the republican party and veterans. my question is does the republican party follow trump and how he feels about veterans calling them losers and suckers? vet.a disabled vet. my children are vets. i ta it to heart how he calls veterans. host: henry olsen? guest: i think a lot of people

are upset by things the president has set. that said, i think there is also a lot of people who don't think that he means it"+■j that it matters and how policy is going to run. you had a poll in south carolina with his comments about nikki haley's husband used by nikki haley in the p■oll showed that people who were or had veterans in their family voted almost identically to people who don't so it is clearly that resonates with many people. but there are also many people who look at what donald trump says on that and just decide as they do with many other things that it is not something that they think will really govern the way he approaches the particular issue or in this case this particular group of people where he can become president again. host: a qst twitter from viewer maverick. maverick says that it seems more

people are willing to call themselves independents or democrats a lot more than republican. guest: one of the interesting things about this election is the democratic edge in voter preference is shrinking. histically since 1932, democrats have had edges over republicans, which is more people say they are democrats than republicans, and when you ask independents, more people say they lean democrat then republican. that edge has virtually e at, it is either one point or so for the democrats would be a historic low or the gallup poll from 2023 showed republicans with an edge for the first time in, so i think the republican party is not growing its base, but what is happening is the democrats are turning off voters, and they are willing to look at the republicans.

if the republicans do win and they govern in a way that those people view as successful, we should see something we have never seen in my lifetime or really the lifet anyone under 92 years of age, which is to say a republican voter. host: just about five minutes left in our program today. the supreme court expect her to is"ysue a de■-cisiont 10:00 a.m. eastern. we will see what case that is but a lot of expectation it is the 14th amendment ballot access case. news out this morning that former president donald trump is set to give remarks at noon today from mar-a-lago, likely reacting to the supreme court we can all watch the news unfold together. in the time we have left, a few more calls for you, henry olsen. this is jeff in philadelphia, democrat. good morning. caller: hi. henry, i am curious to hear your view of the republican party, particularly in the way it appears to surrendered

their own individual sense of judgment and morality to a man such as donald trump who i think by most measures has'the most rt bills but in general, i am curious, when you see a party appeared to surrender its own sense of morality and right and wrong to donaldall, what is thes in politics, and how would you grade the republican party on that? guest: there is a very interesting question. i am at an institution that is called the ethics and public policy center, but i am a writer and political analyst. i have no special trainer as an ethicist. what i say is the republicpartye extremely afraid. they are afraid of their economic position, their religious position, their social

position, they are afraid of what is going to happen overseas. and as a result, but they have been willing to do is look for somebody who seems to understand the depth of their fear willing to fight the forces they perceive as causing that fear. it is unfortunate that people who feel desperate will choose a champion with some of the flaws, many of the■át donald trump has, but it is driven by that sense of fear in 2016 recoe what was going on in tens of millions of voters's minds, they may have been able to capture their hearts and not bring on the"j sorts of ethical confusion or ethical transgressionshat donaru along.

but the fact is people are afraid. they have many reasons to be afraid. that, they will be looking for champions who are unwaveringly in their corner regardless of the other qualities they may possess. host: spokane, washington, laura, republican. good morning. caller: good mning. mr. olse what concerns men, olss when it could be ethical when i only hear from you one point of view and it seems to be without any due diligence, ok? mr. biden or whatever, he is not too old. he is too corrupt, and there is a mountain of evidence that proves that. i don't hear anything about that. we have someone going to cuba to

collude with communist regime but nothing is said about that. mr.#0 biden, legal executive orders are well beyond our laws, our constitution. nothing is said about that. so i wonder, sir, where is the due diligence here where we can see with an open eye? host: henry olsen? guest: that is a very common view among republicans and not without causemany voices in the media that are trained on one side of the political dispute and not actually acting as trying to bear out truth or trying to hold all sides in a political dispute to strong ethical sresult, that increasese division and decreases theru ine

can look for themselves and say, hey, look, not only are they not fair towards me they are not even talking about the other side, and the fact do do that simply means the silence is even louder, that you can look and say somebody else is exposing this. you have more resources. why don't you look at it? you don't look at it, peop institutions and individuals. host: henry olsen making his 53rd appearance on the c-span network. his first appearance back in 1999. always appreciate your time on "washington journal." you can catch up with his >> former president donald trump reacting to today's supreme courdecision, making him eligible t appear on theallot in the 2020 four presidential election. then they oral argument for the case