♪ host: good morning, it is tuesday, may 21. the chief prosecutor of the international criminal court said yesterday that he is seeking arrest warrants for senior leaders of israel and hamas on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity. officials included benjamin

netanyahu and the hamas's leader in gaza. we are getting your reaction. democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002. you can send us a text at (202) 748-8003. include your first name and city, state. we are on social media, facebook.com/c-span and x @cspanwj. we are glad you are with us. we will start with an article from the associated press headlined were crimes prosecutors seek arrests of israeli and hamas leaders including netanyahu. while netanyahu and his defense minister do not face imminent arrest the announcement by the icc chief prosecutor was a symbolic low that deepened israel's isolation over the war

in gaza. accusing netanyahu, gallant, and three hamas leaders of war crimes and crimes against humanity in the gaza strip. let's look at the prosecutor for the icc speaking about this from the hague yesterday. [video clip] >> i have reasonable grounds to believe that the three senior leaders of hamas bear criminal responsibility for the following international crimes committed on the territory of israel and state of palestine from at least the seventh of october 2023. extermination as a crime against humanity, murder as a crime against humanity and war crime,

the taking of hostages as a war crime, rape and other acts of sexual violence during captivity as crimes against humanity, and as war crimes. torture during captivity as a crime against humanity as a war crime. other inhumane acts during captivity as a crime against amenity. cruel treatment during captivity as a war crime. and outrageous upon personal dignity as a war crime. these crimes were committed in the context of the ongoing armed conflict detailed in the applications and is part of a widespread and systematic attack against the civilian population of israel by hamas and other armed groups.

i can also confirm today that i have reasonable grounds to believe on the basis of evidence collected and examined by my office that is really prime minister benjamin netanyahu and minister of defense bear criminal responsibility for the following international crimes committed on the state of palestine from at least the eighth of october 2023. the crimes include starvation of civilians as a method of warfare, willfully causing great suffering, serious injury to body, health, or cruel treatment, willful killing or murder and directing attacks towards a civilian population, as well as crimes against humanity of extermination and/or murder, prosecution, and

allegations of crimes of committing other inhumane acts. host: that was the icc chief prosecutor announcing arrest warrants for israeli and hamas leaders. we are taking your call and getting reaction to that. democrats, "washington journal". -- democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001. (202) 748-8002 for independent s. israel's leadership had been working through diplomatic channels to prevent international criminal court's from issuing warrants and israeli officials said last month. let's get president biden on the icc decision. here he is. [video clip] pres. biden: let me be clear. we reject the icc's application for arrest warrants against israeli leaders. whatever these warrants may

imply there's no equivalence between israel and hamas. it is clear that they do all they can to ensure civilian protection. contrary to allegations, what is happening is not genocide. we reject that. we always stand with israel in threats against it security. host: that was president biden reacting. we are getting your reaction. steve on facebook says, at least they condemned hamas and not just tha and yahoo!. usually it is crickets when terrorists kill israeli civilians and outrage only when israel responds. this is from matthew on facebook. it is completely absurd. even if you try to pretend that this is legitimate, why didn't they announce charges against hamas after october 7? it took them over seven months

to figure out that terrorism should be charged? and this is from speaker mike johnson on axios, saying johnson threatened icc sanctions over netanyahu arrest warrant application. says house speaker mike johnson said on monday, yesterday, that the house may vote on sanctions against the international criminal court for seeking an arrest warrant against israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. it could come as soon as this week, poised once again to divide house democrats over israel. representative chip roy of texas introduced a bill that would sanction icc officials who investigate u.s. citizens or allies. it is supported by nearly two dozen other republicans, including elise stefanik of new york, chair of the house republican conference.

it says that the icc prosecutor kareem con announced he is seeking arrest warrants against netanyahu and three hamas leaders over war crimes marking the first time that the icc has sought to prosecute a major u.s. ally for the -- or the leader of a democratic country. neither israel nor the u.s. are members of the icc. we will go to your calls now. flushing new york on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. i applaud the icc for their decision. do you know why? they have been accusing the palestine people. a crime is committed, to do his job and give it to the judges.

the judges are the final decision-makers. i don't understand why the united states lawmakers don't get these things. nobody is above the law. not even the israeli prime minister or hamas leaders. i don't see why the icc shouldn't be supported. the united citizens are not above the law. this era is over. anyone who is breaking the law, anything, starvation, punishable. if you don't the world would be run by mobs and criminals. let the icc do his job. he -- gives it to the judges,

the judges are going to make the decision. policymakers should stay away from this thing. i advise it. stay away from this thing. thank you very much. host: riverside, california, david, good morning. caller: good morning, mimi. good morning, america. i would like to call in defense of israel. they have a right to their land that goes back 3000 years. if you know your history you know that jerusalem is the city of david, the king of israel and the bible says that god himself gave them that land. they have the right to their land and to defend their people from those who want to torture them. the protesters that are pro-hamas or anti-israel, they have no basis. i have to go back to world war ii and the holocaust when 600 jews were killed by the nazis. if these college students study their history or the icc, which

hasn't been to colleges these days. the jews moved israel in 1940 after the holocaust. no army in history has ever tried harder not to kill civilians. israel are the good guys and hamas are the evil terrorists. biden and those who are unclear in their support of israel, they need to destroy hamas, they need to remember their history not college politics. thank you. host: this is from kareem on facebook. i think putting hamas leadership and israeli leadership on the same level is not quite right. i'm not sure what evidence they have, but it's a high bar for them to reach in terms of charges against israel. janice in sacramento, california, democrat, good morning. caller: yes, i agree with the icc. america does not like war lovers, and our leaders need to

learn that lesson. quit making the american people complicit with the dropping of heavy bombs on buildings, homes. how many people are buried underneath that when people are trying to get them out? it's humanity. that's all i want to say. host: andrew in staten island on the independent line. caller: it is clear that both parties are at fault. israel, the israeli government should not have taken the actions that they did as far as harming innocent civilians who they knew were innocent. my question is this. the caller earlier stated about the israel being there for

centuries and centuries. that is not so. the israeli state as of now was not even put there until 1947 or after world war ii. that's a fact. when they went in, they were allowed to live side-by-side with the palestinians that were there. in fact, was it not the israeli government that went against the british and committed terrorist acts against the british while they were there? that is all i have to say. host: israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu did make remarks yesterday in reaction to the icc's announcement. here is a portion of his remarks. [video clip] >> the outrageous decision by the icc prosecutor to seek warrants against the democratically elected leaders

of israel is a moral outrage of historic proportions. it will cast an everlasting mark of shame on the international court. israel is waging a just war against hamas, a genocidal terrorist organization that perpetrated the worst attack on the jewish people since the holocaust. hamas massacre 1200 jews, raped jewish women, hurt jewish babies, took hostages. mr. khan created false moral equivalence between the leaders of israel and henchmen of hamas. this is like creating a moral equivalent after september 11 between president bush and osama bin laden, or during world war ii between fdr and hitler's. what a travesty of justice. what a disgrace. it is an attempt to deny israel the basic right of self-defense. i assure you one thing. this attempt will utterly fail.

many years ago the jewish people were totally defenseless against our enemies. those days are over. now the jewish people have a state and an army to defend our states. israel will continue to wage this war in full compliance with international law. we will continue to take unprecedented measures to get innocent civilians out of harms and ensure humanitarian assistance reaches those in need in gaza. mr. khan sets a dangerous precedent that undermines every democracies right to defend itself against terrorist organizations and aggressors are the icc has no jurisdiction over israel and his actions won't stop us from waging our just war against hamas. mr. khan's abuse of authority will turn the icc into nothing more than a farce. host: that was the israeli prime minister yesterday reacting to

the icc seeking arrest warrants for him and his defense minister and three hamas leaders. we are getting your reaction to that this morning. this is the washington post with the headline, icc prosecutor six arrest warrant for top israeli and hamas figures. the article says that the icc is the only criminal international court that wields power to prosecute individuals for genocide, funds against humanity and war crimes. the announcement was historical though israel is not a signatory to their own statute upon which the court is founded, the arrest warrant is issued to stigmatize the senior leaders because the icc's pretrial chamber will consider applications. if it approves the request international arrest warrants would be issued for the five men and would be enforced by the court's 124 member states.

it says that the timeline for a decision remains unclear. historically the kate -- the court has taken several months to decide if warrants should be issued. dwight in fairfield, california, independent. good morning. caller: the morning, mimi. how are you? host: i'm great. caller: great. i would like to put in my two cents. my fellow caller from california who was speaking about, people should know their history, about the jewish land, the israeli land, the palestinian land, whatever you want to call it, should go back and read his history book. the caller right after him hit it on the head. that state was not established until 1947. that state was established with the help of the united states government, with the help of the british empire, and the help of france. it was a bunch of eastern

european countries, poland, germany, czechoslovakia, austria, who colonized palestine, which was originally israel, and they took over those people's lands. these are the jewish people. i keep hearing people refer to the jewish people. have no clue what a jewish person is. i thought jew was a religion. if you take dna from a religions person it won't tell you if you are catholic, baptist, or jew. the original people in israel were hebrews, not jews. the narrative has been changed when the eastern european jews came over to palestine and colonized that land. host: what do you think about the icc prosecutor's request for arrest warrants? do you think they are justified?

caller: it is hard to chime in on that. war is war. i am a military veteran. war is war, but genocide is genocide. there is nothing that will come of this. they are just trying to make an showcase. the united states and israel are not in the icc, so nothing is going to come of this. but something is going to have to stop, because they are killing these people, like they have always done. when they went in there they were trying to establish a separate state. it never happened. those people are going to -- the average age of a palestinian now is probably less than 20 years old. that have almost wiped these people off of the earth. i have to bow my head and pray for them and i hope -- it is terrible. host: new jersey, independent, good morning. caller: hi, good morning.

thank you for taking my call. i believe in the 10 commandments given by god to the jewish people. one is thou shall not commit murder. as much as i love the jewish people i am a born again christian. the people i love, you study jewish history when there was crimes against their own people, murder, it was life for life. that is throughout the old testament. to bring my point here to current events, there was a video on infowars, a video showing after october 7 that is really were bombing refugee

supplies from international humanitarian organizations to give food, water, and medical supplies to the palestinian people. you cannot indiscriminately bomb innocent human beings, babies, women, etc. both sides, both the leaderships, i believe those five men should be accountable for mass murder, including prime minister netanyahu. host: all right. michael in plant city, florida sent a text. if netanyahu is charged with international crimes, wouldn't president biden be guilty of providing assistance to netanyahu to prosecute the war? this is from "the washington post" article quote from kareem khan who says notwithstanding military goals they may have the means that israel chose to

achieve them in gaza, intentionally causing death, starvation, rape, suffering, and serious injury to the body or health of the civilian population, or criminal. william is calling from richmond, virginia. good morning. caller: yes, all i can say is just do right. free palestine. that is the right thing to do. host: julio in south carolina. good morning. caller: hello, this is julio from south carolina. host: go right ahead. caller: all the court, the court, both sides are wrong for killing, killing, and killing. that is all it is. you can't arrest the guy, can't

do this, can't do that. people are crying out in the night and the day. both of them are wrong. there's is too much killing going on no matter what. god is not in there. one side is killing for god, the other side is killing for god, god is not in either that. that is the devil. that is not god. killing babies, children, and women, that is not god. who says they are a god fearing people? god has nothing to do with that. host: here is the state department spokesperson matthew miller reacting to the icc prosecutor's announcement from yesterday. caller: as the secretary said in a statement a short time ago, the united states fundamentally rejects the announcement today from the prosecutor of the international criminal court that he is applying for arrest warrants for senior israeli

officials together with warrants for hamas terrorists. there should be no equivalence between israel and hamas. none. hamas is a brutal terrorist organization that carried out the worst massacre of jews since the holocaust and is still holding dozens hostage, including americans. the united states has been clear since before the conflict that the icc has no jurisdiction over this matter. the icc was established i state parties as a court of limited jurisdiction. the limits are rooted in principles that do not appear to have been applied here amid the prosecutors rushed to seek arrest warrants come rather than allowing the israeli legal system a full, timely opportunity to proceed. in other situations, the prosecutor deferred to national organizations and worked with states to allow them time to investigate. the prosecutor didn't afford the same opportunity to israel in this case, which has ongoing investigations into allegations against its personnel. they have deeply troubling

process questions. israel was prepared to cooperate with the prosecutor and made that clear. in fact, the prosecutor himself was scheduled to visit israel as early as next week to discuss the investigation and to hear from the israeli government. the prosecutor's staff was supposed to land in israel today and coordinate the visit. instead, israel was informed the staff did not get on the flight around the same time the prosecutor himself went on television to announce these charges. the circumstances call into question the legitimacy and credibility of this investigation. host: that was matthew miller, the state department spokesperson. we are getting your reaction. the numbers are on your screen. here is more from the washington post article that says that in the case of hamas leaders, the prosecutor said that his office had grounds to believe the men were criminally liable as extermination as a

crime against humanity using torture, rape, and violence in captivity. "it is the view of my office that these individuals planned and instigated the commission of crimes on october 7, 2023, and have, through their own actions, including personal visits to hostages shortly after their kidnapping, acknowledged their responsibility for those crimes." that is from karim khan, the icc chief prosecutor. good morning. caller: thanks for taking my call. the other caller who called in earlier said that you cannot tell if someone is jewish by their genes. that is factually untrue. i want to set the record straight. my sister took the 23 and me dna tests. it turns out that we are part jewish. she found this out through the dna tests because you can tell

in the genes if someone is jewish. you cannot tell that by christianity because it is not a family lineage. that is the difference. you can be an atheist jew. you cannot be an atheist christian. you're simply an atheist at that point. being a jew means that your parents were jewish, their parents, so on and so forth. this isn't something that you choose by a public declaration of faith. all of these people who say that israel should not do what they are doing, why don't they come up with a plan for what they should do? put the big college brains to work. tell us, what should israel do differently to protect themselves? i also want to point out that we stay on stolen land, just like most people. if israel should leave that area, we should leave this area

too. thank you for taking my call. host: ronald is next in indiana on the independent line. ronald? caller: yes. how are you doing? host: good. caller: mimi, will you put me on air? host: you are on the air, ronald. what do you think about the icc seeking arrest warrants? caller: no, i want to be on air talking to her on tv. host: you are on the air. maybe not. john in milwaukee, democrat, good morning. caller: good morning. how are you today? thank you for taking my call. i want your viewers to know that what they are witnessing israel doing in palestine is the same thing that the europeans did when they came to america. when the native americans fought back, the europeans said that

they had to protect themselves and they put the native americans through a genocide, which still exists today. you are seeing a repeat, an exact repeat of what the europeans did to the native americans in america. they are trying to justify it by saying that they are just trying to protect themselves after they stole land. thank you. host: this is james from facebook saying that the ringleaders of the barbaric terrorist attack by hamas should be arrested and put on trial by the international court for their crimes. the leaders of the ultra-right regime in israel responsible for the indiscriminate carnage in gaza should also be brought to justice to account for their crimes. i agree. a few says on facebook, it is completely absurd. even if you try to pretend that this is legitimate, why didn't

they announce charges against hamas after october 7? it took them over seven months to figure out terrorism should be charged? leslie in upstate new york, republican. caller: yes, i am from upstate new york and i served in the army. while i was in denmark we came out of a restaurant in 1986 in our civilian clothing on military duty over there and were attacked by muslims for being americans. all muslims understand what to do is to kill. they killed 2 million armenians in world war i. they will never be peaceful. all they want to do is commit terrorism. joe biden lifted the sanctions on iran so that they could afford to pay for terrorists. host: marina in wisconsin on the line for democrats. hello. caller: good morning. first of all what that gentleman said was misrepresenting

history. second, i don't agree with the israeli prime minister. he is just as bad as our right politicians. israel has a right to defend themselves. arrest warrants, it is extreme, but they have to start figuring some things out. they -- then go for it. with the palestinians are doing, not the israelis themselves, what the politicians are doing. -- that is the only way israel is going to have any peace. remember, the palestinians are the ones who voted hamas politicians into power in gaza in the first place. then they would leave -- so,

civilians are civilians. the military is the military. korea and vietnam, when you cannot tell the difference to the fighters are and aren't, that is where the issues are. that is what i'm saying. host: taking a look at the senate minority leader mitch mcconnell on the senate floor yesterday talking about this issue. [video clip] sen. mcconnell: it is a damming development but not for the proposed subjects of the application. the icc has succeeded only in discrediting me itself even further as a rogue kangaroo court utterly untethered to morality or justice. those of us who long rejected this international farce of a court and its efforts to gobble up jurisdiction, this fact was

hardly news. i refused to acknowledge any icc authority to conduct investigations of american service members, as it has tried illegitimately to do literally for years. weeks ago several of our colleagues and i warned the institution specifically against lighting any last shred of credibility on fire in an attempt to equate hamas calculated cruelty with israel's right to self-defense. putting on full display in the hague, responding that holding it accountable for this power grab would somehow violate international law. unfortunately, there are still plenty in the senate and administration who need reality

to be spelled out more clearly. this isn't about prime minister netanyahu. it isn't about so-called international law. the leader of israel's opposition condemned the icc decision as a complete moral failure. host: von in warrensburg, missouri. caller: how are you doing? host: good. caller: i want you people to stop talking about israel and palestine. there is no such a thing as palestine. also, there ain't no jewish lineage, as the guy was saying. abraham was a syrian. he was a syrian.

people, please know what you're talking about. everyone has the right to self-defense. also, i look at this situation as i look at my own situation in my own country. you know, we could have had gaza s here. we could have west banks right here. for the grace of god goes i. we didn't have that here. what we have here is we have netanyahu, which we say is the head of israel. israel encompasses gaza and the west bank, the whole nine yards. he is killing his own people. they were born there. they are israelis, too. people, please get it right. host: they are not israeli citizens, though. talking about the palestinian people in gaza and the west

bank, they don't have the same rights that israeli citizens have. caller: you are right. they should. that's the point. if you don't want them to be part of israel, give them a separate state. acknowledge and recognize them as a separate country. they have not done that. host: what do you think about the icc's decision yesterday? caller: i think -- the u.n. charter 51 says if you are being occupied you have every right to do whatever is necessary to free yourself of that occupation. host: you feel like the october 7 attacks were justified? caller: what do you expect them to do? host: do you think it was justified? caller: to a certain degree, yeah. host: what degree would that be? caller: resistance. it is called resistance.

it is called trying to free yourself of being occupied and oppressed. host: in gaza, there were no is really troops before october 7. so, when you say the attack was to free yourself, how can you justify that? caller: we have often heard about the wall they have over there. that wall is surrounded by israeli troops to keep them inside the wall. they control what goes in and what comes out. host: that's true. aaron, democrat, good morning. caller: good morning, mimi. first time caller. i have been watching the show for over 30 years. host: wow. it took you 30 years to call us, aaron? caller: a lot of callers want to reference the bible to israel.

still, when black folks make a claim of reparations, only a hundred years, they start going crazy. not to include jim crow. i don't want to get off course and i know the icc -- that should be something that should be looked into. history is a lot different from 20 years ago with the social media. younger kids are staying more informed. they can get people who are in palestine sending messages to people here. we are seeing what's going on. you cannot pull the wool over people's eyes. everyone feel sorry for what happened to israel, but what about the palestinians? when yasser arafat was there when they were destroying palestine? this has been going on since

1947. those people in israel, in my opinion, what i think that they should do, they have billions -- what they say about the middle east, that is the one hotspot that we have in the middle east. they always talk about it. you know what, give it back. it's nothing. they are. trying to go to mars. host: independent, good morning. caller: hello. my opinion is if you look at whatever thing that led up to prior to everything happening over there, there was knowledge of things that netanyahu knew. prior to that. the plans. he never really did anything about it. the day of the event, it took

seven to 10 hours for the military to do much of anything. maybe that is part of what they are looking at from the court system as well as what is happening in gaza, in gaza. and there are a lot of events happening prior to that, acknowledgment as well as the payments being paid to hamas. i guess they figured they weren't going to do much of anything. i don't know, there is just a lot of stuff going on. i am not anti-semitic whatsoever, but when you look at the uproar is going on within israel at the time, within the court system trying to be changed, i don't know. there is just a lot of stuff. i thank you for letting me talk. host: there is other news that the prosecutors have rested

their case against donald trump. according to nbc news, a dramatic day of testimony. they grilled michael cohen while the judge briefly booted reporters after schooling a key defense witness. the former president spoke to reporters yesterday after that day wrapped up. [video clip] mr. trump: i think the case is going very well. we asked for termination of the case. to be terminated right now. new york city -- new york state can't let this happen. can't let this happen. there were no crimes. we did nothing wrong. i want to get back to campaigning. [indiscernible] that is not going to be an easy

situation where they have north koreans -- [indiscernible] inflation is hitting new highs. i should be out there campaigning. host: back to our conversation. taking your calls for the next 20 minutes during this segment about the icc's prosecutor announcing yesterday to seek arrest warrants for a israeli and hamas figures. from whiting, new jersey, the whole truth and nothing but the truth needs to come out about the israel-hamas conflict before we can make judgments as to who is right or wro. it says thathe statement that you read from the icc blaming israel are actually being perpetrated by hamas. hamas is using the palestinian

people as shields. they are taking the supplies of food and medicine from the palestinians. in my opinion, the icc is playing the same game as biden is doing trying to appease both sides of the war. that is from jim in winter park, florida. this is south dakota on the republican line. caller: people should understand this. one said call and understand what you're talking about. it comes down to the foundational principles of the countries involved. the united states has our constitution and the supreme court. our laws are set up a certain way. i think the bible. in israel, they have the torah and they believe in the first five books of the bible.

then you get into iran where they stand on the principles of their book. i don't want to mention their book because it is offensive to a lot of people. they stand on those principles and they do with that book says they are supposed to be doing. the understanding, if you can understand what we are going through in this world right now. thank you for giving me the time to say that. host: arizona, independent line, good morning, steve. caller: yes, good morning. this case reminds me a lot of the donald trump charges. with all of the charges against trump, and in this case the charges by the international court, people are lurching to judgment and they don't know all the evidence. shame on you. host: what evidence are you

looking for in the case of the israel-hamas war? caller: what evidence do they have? we don't know. we don't know the evidence. people are rushing to judgment. here the evidence before you make your judgment. host: anthony in hyattsville, maryland. caller: good morning, mimi. everyone is jumping to about what goes on in israel, that i would remind you that the river to the sea people, that was something said by andrew jackson when he did the trail of tears, which is the same thing that's happening in gaza, moving people from one spot to the other. his speeches, by persuasion and force they have been made to

retire from river to river and mountain and until some tribes have become synced and others remain remnants to preserve for a while there once terrible name surrounded by the white with their art of civilization, which by destroying the resources of the savage doom him to weakness and decay. that was andrew jackson in 1829, who i guess you could say from the white house, racism from the white house. you can call it what you want, but that started way back then. you hear from the river to the sea, that speech that none yahoo! gave when the war started -- that benjamin netanyahu gave when the war started, it goes back in history. the native people here are still on reservations to this day, just like the palestinians are still on those i guess you would

call them refugee camps. it has been started here in the united states, and it went even to south africa. they tried. australia used to be a black nation, but now it is all white. host: the republican line, jay in hyattsville, maryland. caller: good morning. i will get to the arrest warrant. i just want to say that there are a small group of us who are adamant c-span watchers who call ourselves the crazy 88's. we have taken the earliest c-span posts and the most controversial. the friendliest is john and the most controversial is you, mimi. let me explain, real quick. when you made fun of the mentally ill person, i know that you apologized, but that really

showed a lot about your character. host: i'm going to push back on you on that. i never made fun of a mentally old person. what i said -- mentally ill person. what i said when i was talking to a reporter's i said what is the mood in congress these days not having a speaker for three weeks? is everyone on antidepressants at this point? i was called out not to make fun of that. there are people who need antidepressants, which is true and i apologize. i never made fun of a mentally ill person. i would never do that. caller: your answer was broad. it was not specific. the second reason that you were voted as the most controversial, for some reason you don't have palestinian journalists or pro-palestinians. you don't even have the u.n. representative for palestine. only one side.

the one guy that was on there from care, you hung up on him. that is why you were voted -- host: sorry, but the house came in after that. you can check the video. the house comes in at 10:00 and we have to move right away, because we do gavel-to-gavel coverage so we have to get it from the beginning. i apologized to him and i told him i'm sorry, we have to go. that's the end of the show. caller: all right, we will agree to disagree on that one. am i still on the air? host: go ahead. caller: are you familiar with the israeli program called where's daddy? host: no. caller: anyone can look this up. i think that this had something to do with the arrest warrants that were applied for cognitive

dissidents. it is an israeli program where they use ai to follow the suspected terrorists back to their homes and wait until they get in their homes amongst their family, and then they drop a bomb on them. it is called where's daddy. another program, the viewers would know this if we could hear from the palestinian side, you have -- you represent and have people on, these congresspeople who are bought and paid for -- so not too much of what they say should be taken with a grain of salt, you know. the earlier caller talked about the two sides. the palestinians are semantic people to so things against them should be anti-semitic as well. it is not just the jewish

people, the palestinians are semantic people. i wish that c-span would have a more balanced approach when it comes to this. there were almost 200 children killed from january of 2023 to october the sixth of 2023. almost 200 children. there was a lie that there was a peace agreement. i know this because of people like piers morgan, democracy now, or amy goodman. you had her on to talk about this. she knows a lot about it. host: i appreciate your input. we also had the spokesperson for the saudi embassy on the program. you can look that up. i think that you would enjoy that conversation. i do appreciate the feedback. we heard your request for more palestinian voices.

carlos in california, independent line. caller: good morning. man, i love c-span because i get the pulse of all the people. man, we're in trouble. the icc, i really believe the icc is doing right. the united states is not innocent, israel is not innocent, russia is not innocent, that leadership has killed kids and all that. our lord jesus christ, i have heard this israeli-palestinian issue related to the bible. there are two testaments, old and new, and they are different. grace, mercy, and love is jesus

christ. i listened to us, and man, we are in trouble. that's all i got to say. host: let's talk to jason on the independent line. you are calling from ukraine? caller: yes, ma'am. what is your name? host: mimi. caller: nice to meet you. my name is jason. i work as an english teacher and i have six or seven minutes before i have to get back to my class. i feel bad with everything going on. i heard everything you are talking about. no holds barred, laying into israel and everyone else. it is very sad, actually. right now, i talked to people in ukraine and elsewhere, there are rockets, in kharkiv people are

being evacuated, it's very sad what's happening. you can ask me questions. host: i am interested to know. are you safe? can you tell us where in ukraine you are? caller: in kyiv, the center of the city. it is the safest area, but there are periodic blackouts. it's crazy. look, i am a native speaker of english. i work as a teacher and it's interesting and a great experience. people like now, i told her to a ukrainian student of mine, it's crazy. right now, people are scared beyond belief. host: how long have you been there? since the invasion? caller: my ukrainian name is vladimir, but i am an english speaker so it's awkward. by wife is from the philippines and i haven't seen her for one year because i cannot leave ukraine because men are not

allowed to leave ukraine because of marshall law. i haven't seen my son. i am strong, i believe in god, god gives me strength and is incredible. that is the thing about people, they say that they am strong, but they don't know nothing. listen to sean hannity and tucker carlson. i know all of the fox news correspondence and everyone else. i want to show what i'm capable of. honestly, i could be a tv host as well, but i believe that god give me something better. i am inspiring people and it's a blessing for me. it's incredible. people need to practice faith, not just talk about it. today, you talked to a gentleman, it is so great to be here and everything like that. honestly, people need to learn to be happy and enjoy life. even alexander, who patched me through to you, or sasha as he

likes to be called, it is a blessing to talk to people. for example, you know fox news, right? you do. host: jason, putin has also been issued an arrest warrant from the icc. what is your reaction when you see this happening for israel and hamas leaders? caller: oh my god, this is beyond belief. first of all, when october 7 happened, -- my first opinion is it is hypocritical, i would say. first of all, when it is someone like that, it is like equating putin and netanyahu. it is insane, unbelievable. when something like that happens it is not normal. it's not.it should be an equal application of the law. maybe it is something not right. host: well, we appreciate you

calling and we hope that you stay safe and give. -- in kyiv. democrat, good morning. caller: hello. i will say real quick, israel has the right to defend itself. number two, hamas is a criminal, end of discussion. host: that's all you wanted to say? caller: that's all i want to say. host: that was the end of that segment. next, we will hear from the heritage foundation. federal, state, local crime and law enforcement policies. later, the missouri democratic representative emanuel cleaver discussing the israel-hamas war, black voters, campaign 2024, and congressional news of the day. we will be right back. ♪

>> the c-span bookshelf podcast makes it easy for you to listen to all of c-span's podcasts that feature nonfiction books in one place to discover new authors and ideas. each week we are making it convenient to listen to multiple episodes with critically acclaimed authors discussing history, biography, current events, and culture. from our signature programs about books, afterwords, book notes plus, and q&a. listen today. you can find it in all of our podcasts on the free c-span now mobile video app or wherever you get your podcast. on our website, c-span.org/podcasts. >> c-span now is a free mobile app featuring your unfiltered view of what's happening in

washington, live and on-demand. keep up with the day's biggest events with live streams of floor proceedings and hearings from the u.s. congress, white house events, the court, campaign, and more from the world of politics at your fingertips. you can stay current with the latest episodes of washington journal and find scheduling information for c-span tv networks and c-span radio, plus a variety of compelling podcasts. c-span now is available at the apple store and google play. scan the qr code to download it for free today or visit c-span.org/c-spannow. your front row seat to washington, anytime, anywhere. >> c-spanshop.org is c-span's online store. browse their products, apparel, books, home deo -- decor, and

accessories. shop now or anytime at c-spanshop.org. >> washington journal continues. host: welcome back to washington journal. we are joined by charles simpson , the deputy director of the center for legal and judicial studies at the heritage foundation, also the co-author of a book called road prosecutors. welcome to the program. guest: thank you for having me. host: tell me about your role. are you affiliated with the trump campaign and with project 2025? guest: not affiliated with any campaign, including trump's. i have a small role in project 2025 because of my time at the of the in the bush administration. i am helping with the regulatory reform side of dod if another person comes into office in the fall. i am helping with a whole bunch of other people.

just look at dod directives, dod instructions, and see if they should be reformed, if at all. host: let's talk about crime statistics. the fbi, the bureau of logistics, they compiled statistics about crime. what do most experts use and how useful are those statistics? guest: it is complicated. there is stuff that goes in. you have the fbi, the uniform crime reports statistics, and another measure of crime, the national crime statistics survey with a quarter million victims a year survey by doj.

the tough part is when you go from one system to another, which is what happened, in 2019 89% of police agencies across the country covering 97% of the country reported statistics to the fbi under the old system. when they switched in 2021, it went down to 63% of agencies covering 65% of the country. it excluded chicago, l.a., and new york city. obviously, places where there is a lot of crime. at the same time, when they switched the system, the national crime victims survey data showed crime was up according to the victims. when you don't have good input or output -- when you don't have good input you don't have good

output. with the fbi has done is to estimate the amount of crime. there is another data input that should be talked about quickly. that is the major cities chiefs associations. the chiefs of police in the largest cities. they know what is going on in their cities. they collect this data. you can look at that index to get a general sense of what is happening at the ground level. it is a complicated process. host: this is a headline from usa today that says that fbi data shows that america is seeing a considerable drop in crime. trump says the opposite. what are your thoughts? guest: i look to the data. since 1992 when we had our last week of the crime tsunami, crime has been going down for 25 years.

since 2018 crime has gone up in many cities across the country, not all, but many. i don't look at the headline that you referenced where it talks about from 2022-2023. i open up the lens because you look at from here to here. instead of one day of trading. from 2019-2023 according to the council on criminal justice, carjacking is up 93%. that is from the council on criminal justice. they are a political looking at crime statistics that came up with their yearly report in january 2024. host: they get the data from? guest: all of the sources that i talked about. you don't have good outputs unless you have good inputs and

they are looking at the major cities chiefs association, crime victims surveys, they are looking at the new fbi reporting system, and motor vehicle theft, which we see in this city and other major cities of 105%. it is true that from 2022-2023 that there has been a drop in crime in some cities. gas prices went to four dollars when they started at three dollars. nothing to brag about, going in the right direction, but there is still a massive crime problem. host: your book is called road prosecutors, how radical lawyers are destroying america's communities. guest: it is a true crime novel layered with public policy overlay. this is tracing the origins,

playbook, belief of the progressive prosecutor movement focusing on the funding of that and focuses on a particular rogue prosecutors or progressive prosecutors. there are 2800 elected da's but 74 are bought and paid for by george soros and other heavy funders. in my opinion they are, if you read the policies in the book, pro-criminal, anti-victim, refusing to prosecute misdemeanors, they watered down felonies to misdemeanors. host: how can anyone be pro-criminal? guest: they are, unfortunately. if you look at their policies, and i was a defense attorney, looking at from all sides of the courtroom, does the policy help victims or the criminal? they have blanket policies not to prosecute any misdemeanors. they have blanket policies not

to prosecute any juveniles, no matter how heinous the crime, as an adult. blanket policies never to ask for cash bail. they never ask, for example, prosecutors in l.a. county's, to go to parole hearings. they have blanket policies not to add gun enhancements or sentencing enhancements to any crimes. of every one of those policies, does it help the perp or the victim? it is all towards the benefit of the perp. host: we are taking your calls for our guest. the lines are democrat, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002. we have a line set aside for law enforcement. if you are in law enforcement, you can call us on (202) 748-8003. that is the same line that you can use for texting.

send us your first name, city, and state. you have a piece in the daily signal about the macy's in san francisco closing. you say that it is due to theft and crime. however, macy's is closing a lot of businesses and retailers are closing and consolidating, shutting down some of their larger stores for various economic reasons. how can you say that it is because of theft or crime? guest: the employees interviewed for various news articles say that is exactly what's going on. you're right. macy's has announced through corporate they are closing 105 stores across the country. there is no coincidence that these stores, like the flagship macy's in san francisco in union

square, smaller stores like wa- wa in philadelphia have left because of rapid theft. the nordstrom's in san francisco. they have not only lost customers because employees were afraid, but you see story after story after story of stores that close because of the policies of the local leaders who should be enforcing law and order giving the cream -- the green light to criminals to do the 10 finger discount again and again. when they arbitrarily raise the threshold saying that even the losses is 500 dollars for misdemeanor you can still up to $950 per incident, people walk in, take it, and the profit margins for some of the stores is so small. big stores like macy's will survive. the small mom-and-pop shops who have closed around the country, not only because of the pandemic, and that was hard, but

because of rapid theft and a lax attitude towards theft. when you say these progressive prosecutors that these are quality-of-life crimes and therefore should not be prosecuted, the only quality of life it improves is the criminals. it doesn't improve the store owners, it doesn't improve the shoppers. the societal rot theory that we did on a video series shows you through video what is going on in these inner cities. host: this is from an interview last month with fox 40 news in san francisco, the city's mayor, who talks about crime and i will have you respond. [video clip] >> what is the biggest issue facing your city right now? >> i think the biggest issue facing san francisco right now is the perception of safety and concerns around safety when in fact in 2023 we had the lowest crime rate that we've had in 10 years, not including 2020 when

we had to shut down the city for the global pandemic. not to mention, crime was down this past month of march by over 43%. we had no homicides during the month of february. san francisco is not only getting better and feeling better, it is transforming. there are a lot of exciting, great things going on. our goal is to overcome the issues around the perception. when tourists come here and people visit they are like, it's not what we thought it was. it's actually a great experience. our hope is that that message is getting out loud and clear. >> you know the phrase perception is reality. how do you fight something like that? you can give folks all of the data that you month, but if they feel a certain way it is hard to overcome. find you think that san francisco has continued to be under the microscope, not only locally but nationally? >> i think, sadly, san

francisco, where you have seen a number of political champions in the democratic party, like kamala harris, gavin newsom, they come from san francisco and san francisco has a huge personality and is an incredible city. some of the things have been used to attack some of our political leaders and imply something negative about our city because these people came from politics out of san francisco. i think that part of it, also after the global pandemic, so many major cities face real issues around crime and safety. many of those videos went viral. not just in san francisco. in other parts of the country as well. host: what do you think of that? guest: videos don't live. she is a politician and she wants tourists to go to her city. san francisco is a gem.

the problem is when you go to parts of the city like we showed in our societal rot series, it is eating itself from the inside out. the pandemic caused crime to rise. the mantra is not backed up by the facts. crime started to rise in 2018. unfortunately, san francisco had eight years of george gus cohen as the da followed by 2.5 years when the voters said that we are done with you and recalled him in a special election because crime was the number one issue. watch the videos, go on youtube and do crime in san francisco, and you will see rapid theft going on all the time in san francisco. she is cheerleading for tourism. host: stephen in lexington, kentucky, democrat. guest: good morning. caller: a big fan of you, mimi. mr. simpson, thank you for your time. my question relates more to the

policies of how the police, i guess, brown and black people and people of color, they are statistically arrested at higher rates. the numbers don't lie. across the country. why is it so militarized to come after these people? i'm curious what the policy is. how do you justify the numbers when it comes to black and brown people, people of color, compared to their counterparts, white and so on? thank you. guest: i appreciate stephen's question. there is no criminal justice system in the united states. there are systems. 3000 counties. what happens in one part of the state might be different than another part of the state. the core of the question is right. i was a prosecutor in the district of columbia.

i used to go to homicide scenes all the time of the tough parts of town. the folks did not want fewer police, they wanted more. they wanted police to look like them, police who they trusted, police who they could have private conversations with. unfortunately, in this country, we have a crime problem. in communities of color, unfortunately, a majority of the sit instance who live there are peaceloving, honest, hard-working folks who just want to get by like everyone else. you have a certain segment, a small segment of society, who commits a crime. unfortunately minorities commit a disproportionate amount of crimes, especially in inner cities. the police do not go where there is no crime. the go to where there is crime. do police make mistakes, we all make mistakes, but the police go to where the crime is and that is why that is happening. host: the republican line, minneapolis, patricia, hello. caller: please do not interrupt

me, drop me, or cut me off. yesterday in the trump trial in new york, cohen was grilled and admitted that what he remembered was wrong about the trump body guard phone call that informed him of the payment. that was regarding a 14-year-old who was caught with harassing telephone calls. it should have been a directed verdict. c-span should be talking about this. the judge used to work for the ag. his daughter works for the dn c. when he was a judge, talk about rogue prosecutors. talk about a justice system. talk about an injustice system. the other thing is c-span, with

an cnn ceo running c-span, you can tell every host is a democrat by what you do and don't cover. if president trump had done as many bumbling speeches in incoherent language as biden, you would be running that every single day. but you ignore it. guest: i am a huge fan of c-span. i think that brian lamb is an american treasure. i think we need more brian lamb's. i understand the new person elected is a squared away person so i wish him the best of luck. host: he is. he has gotten a lot of good comments from both sides. guest: following the trump trial, we have a whole chapter in our book about alvin bragg and i encourage people to read the chapter. host: what were you saying

specifically about alvin bragg? guest: he got money from soros and ran on a promise if elected to prosecute donald trump. i think that if you are running on a promise to prosecute anyone, that raises red flags. he issued directives, like a lot of rogue prosecutors, the day he is elected to his prosecutors not to prosecute all classes of crime and crime goes up when you give a green light to criminals. host: pat, independent line. caller: thank you for taking my call. i am on the veterans memorial committee. we are going to honor our veterans at the memorial. kids don't really know who to look up to anymore. they get one side of it. who is telling the truth? you look at donald trump, we look at menendez, we look at our leaders, who do we go to?

i think it is a very difficult time for young people in the united states of america, and i honestly don't know where they can get their truth from anymore. if you go to churches, the evangelical church preaches trump. there used to be a separation of church and state and it isn't that way anymore. i still love this country. i think it is the greatest country of the world. thank you. host: what do you think? guest: i think the sentiment he is expressing, that people on all sides are having a hard time figuring out what the truth is, that is one reason why this term disinformation has crept into the dialogue. my dad served in world war ii. i looked up to him. i'm sure that pat has done distinguished things for the fact that he is helping with the vets memorial service.

i served 30 years in the military and i still think that this country is a great country and there are people to look up to. i think that you want to read across a wide variety of sources and make up your own mind, not let people guide you. host: christopher, democrat, oklahoma. caller: hello, mimi. i read your commentary. i was wondering if you have changed your mind in the last four or five years since you heard remarks and overwhelming evidence in the scientific american in march. they talk about noevidence it is general or social deterrent.

how do you explain that? guest: i appreciate your question, christopher. i think that there are perfectly legitimate moral, ethical, religious reasons to be against the death nolte and i won't change anyone's mind. i'm not for the death penalty but understand that it is mentioned in the constitution, upheld by the supreme court. there is a famous case out of oklahoma which has caused some controversy in oklahoma. it's used in a very limited class of cases and it is up to the states to decide whether they offer the ultimate punishment. most cases don't go capital, but we do have it. unless the states take it off the books, we will continue to have it. host: your opinion of it? restroom was saying that it has been shown not to deter crime. guest: that piece to me is not a

definitive piece of research. i have seen other research suggesting that it is a general deterrent. as a former homicide prosecutor in two different jurisdictions, having been in prisons to debrief people, that is a comment that people in the criminal justice system on the bad side of the law say. they don't want the needle. also, that is one aspect of the criminal punishment side of things. the other is whether they deserved it. it is the punitive aspect. whether it deter someone or not is part of the equation. host: from compton, california. caller: i just wanted to make a statement on republicans saying alan bragg was going to go after trump. i get alvin bragg running on the fact that no man is above the

law. he was running on the fact that he will pursue the law the way that it is stated to be. that no man is above the law, even the president. it just happens to be one president. republicans got this thing on trying to paint it that he wanted to go after donald trump. but he is actually saying, i'm running on the fact that no man is above the law. republicans don't seem to get that. i don't understand why if they want to be the party of law and order. host: what do you think? guest: i think alvin bragg did say that no man is above the law, no man meaning human. he also specifically targeted an individual. it didn't matter if it was trump, bump, or jump.

it didn't matter what the last name was. prosecutors are supposed to be an and minister of justice and prosecute. this is the reason why the county da is not, pamela is being recalled because she has all of policies to the benefit of criminals. in fact, the first -- the iconic in and out burger store in oakland closed on march 21 this year as part of our societal route series because the employees, the patrons, were being subjected to criminal assaults, burglaries, and robberies. no person is above the law including the president. i agree. i think it is a law and order versus chaos thing and that is why we wrote a book. host: the time magazine article with the headline america's suburban crime problem. it says essentially that in the

urban centers things are getting better, but in the suburbs they are not. do you have an opinion as to why that might be? guest: i'm not sure that i agree. crime, especially violent crime, is demographically and geographically concentrated in inner cities. in cities like philadelphia. host: per capita or just because there is more people in urban centers? guest: it is per capita. for example, if you look at philadelphia, you look at the counties surrounding philadelphia, in philadelphia before we have a full chapter on philadelphia in our book, in the five years before he was elected versus the five years since he has been elected, murders were 271 in the five years before, 457 the year after. he was elected in 2018. same with shootings and auto -- auto thefts.

crime it spills over from the cities into the outlying counties. your public safety privilege totally depends on whether or not the prosecutor is going to hold people accountable and whether the police are adequately funded. if either of those are imbalanced, especially the prosecutor because that is the gatekeeper to the criminal justice system, you will see crimes spilling into suburban counties. host: let's talk to sharman in hunting town, maryland. caller: yes, earlier i heard you say that the police go where crime is. i just couldn't say that i agree. i think that the police go where policy dictates. a lot of the times in inner-city communities it is more so a policy issue versus direct crime issue. guest: so, sharman brings up an interesting point. the police agencies, especially major police agencies, have a crime spotter heat map where

various incidents -- not only 911 calls, but where shootings are and that sort of thing. if you go on the map in d.c., you can go on d.c. crime at a glance, and you can see a map where crime is happening. yes, it is a policy question. you send a bunch of police to 1-d where american university is and there's not a lot going on, or 5, 6, 7-d where there is a lot of shootings? it is a policy choice. you send police where there is high crime or do you send them to american university to sit around and eat donuts? it is a decision, but it is a resource issue. if the goal of the police is to help ensure safety, protect victims, and arrest the people who are committing the crimes or have probable cause to be committing crimes, that is the situation. host: what are the policy

changes you are recommending? guest: i have worked in drug courts and domestic violence court. one of the reasons that crime went down for 25 years after its peak in 1992 is because prosecutors and public defenders , and other stakeholders in the criminal justice system, realized that you cannot prosecute and incarcerate your way out of this problem. which have been building from the late 1970's forward. they created thousands of alternatives to incarceration which i am a huge proponent of. i'm a huge proponent of drug courts, domestic crime court, if you have a carrot and stick approach. 57% of murders are unsolved. same with 95% of rape. 95% of those people don't go to prison. guest: why is that? guest: because we have a massive underreporting problem, we have a resource issue, and we have an under charging problem.

setting aside rape, which is a complicated case and i use to prosecute those and defend them because people don't report for all sorts of reasons. aggravated assault and burglary, a lot of victims that you see on the national crime victims surveys, they don't think that they will get justice. they don't think the perpetrator will get caught so they do not report it. when you see that and you hear about mass incorporation, mass incarceration includes people not incarcerated, people on probation and parole is one third of the number. one third of the other number is in jail. the average person spends 23 days in jail. if you believe that every murderer, every rapist, every armed robber, every aggravated assaulter should be imprisoned for a time you are woefully disappointed in this country because that's not do you thinke under-incarcerating in the united states? even comparing to other industrialized countries, that we have a much higher percentage

of our population in prison? guest: yeah, and here is why. if you think of an equation, you are looking at one part of the equation, the number of people in correctional control. probation, parole, jail, or prison. we are not looking at the amount of crime being committed. when you consider that for the last few decades we have had 25,000 murders a year in this country, that is more than canada, all of western europe, australia, new zealand combined every year. host: why is that? guest: i don't know. i'm not an expert on why people are killing people, but we do. and we glorify crime. we have crime shows. law and order. i'm not blaming any of those things. you have rap music, all sorts of the culture that, sort of, shows crime. i don't know why we have crime.

part of it has to do with the breakdown of the family unit. i think it has to do with poor education outcome. i think it is a very complicated answer, but we just have it. you have to look at both sides of the equation. host: carol in tyler, texas. good morning. caller: good morning and thanks to you both. i wanted to say is that i think that we don't, the individual person does not trust themselves enough in this country. we blame everything on that you watch this, you watch fox news, you watch msnbc, but really it is sort of like january 6. we all watched it on television. i saw what happened and i saw who was responsible for it, and it was the president of the united states. it doesn't take, you know, someone to interpret that for me. i trust myself. another thing is, we see now the supreme court has to take on cases to decide whether or not the president should be above the law.

now they are taking on cases to decide, is it fair that we can eliminate minorities from having their opportunities to vote? so when you get your highest court in the land, to spend all of their time trying to decide what we all know inside, that everyone should have a fair chance to vote no matter their caller -- color, and no one should be above the law. why should that even be a question in the country? now we are diddling on all of this stuff about answers we already know, and we just don't want to see the answers. that is what i believe. thank you. host: thank you, carol. guest: the one part of her statement that i will treat as a question is, to what extent did the supreme court's decision in nixon versus fitzgerald, which was dealing with a civil matter, leave open the question of whether the president has immunity for his official acts

versus his personal acts, unrelated to criminal matters. that is the issue before the court now and the case that was recently argued. i'm not going to touch the rest of her comment. host: do you have an opinion on presidential immunity? guest: i have not studied it that much. i did listen to the arguments with some interest, and i think this court is going to try to thread the needle between what were official acts and what were not official acts. i think more likely than not they are going to send it back down to the lower courts to develop the factual record. just so carol understands my position, i work in the u.s. attorney's office prosecuting the people who committed crimes on january 6. i think anyone who has committed crimes anywhere, including on january 6, should be held to account criminally. host: you mentioned briefly funding for the police. here is maryland democratic representative glenn ivey, who

is a member of the judicial committee and not talking about funding the police. >> the defined language, none of that is pending legislation with respect to police right now. the only defined language i have seen right now is defund atf and fbi. those are sponsored by the republicans. defund the atf bill is one sentence long. when i raise the question with the gentleman who proposed that i said, how is that supposed to work? how would you defund the atf knowing that we have gone cases pending now? the same with the fbi. international prosecutions, cartels and the like, he would just shut them down like that? that is what those would do. talk about irresponsible. that is what that proposal is right now. so, let's get serious. host: what do you think about? guest: glenn was a good

prosecutor. but people need to remember that only 10% of the crimes across this country are prosecuted or handled at the federal level. 90% or handled at the local and state level. so, the defund the police movement bubbling up at the local level through either city councils, county councils, or state, that we know, people are not talking about defunding the police because it is toxic, now being weaponized as if one party is trying to defend the police. the fact is major police departments across this country are suffering. they are down police. philadelphia is down 1300 police officers. our metropolitan police department was, the findings were cut substantially by the city council. they lost 1000 officers since 2020. they are down 500 now. you see that across the country, and that has a route, retention problem, and it is a big problem. host: where is that money being

moved to? i know a lot of the argument was, let's move that money to prevention, let's move it to mental health services, things like that. guest: i don't know the answer to that, because, again, these are local issues and i have not studied every 3000 counties in the country to see where they are. but in the major cities, if their goal was to defund or cut the budget of the police, i guess they are not very good at preventing crimes, because in those cities when there is a lower police presence and a prosecutor is not willing to prosecute, crime explodes. host: let's talk to sean. caller: how are you all doing? i could talk for hours about what this guy got going on right here. the best thing i could say is, you can make statistics say whatever you want. crime, in my opinion, is

directly proportional to poverty and choices. i don't even know your statistics. you can go back as far as you want. when people are poor, crime goes up. when people don't have choices, crime goes up. so, when those things go down, crime goes down. there is not a criminal alive -- maybe a small percentage in the psychopaths that have something messed up mentally, but there is not a criminal alive that is committing a crime because the prosecutor said this or any kind of policy. they commit crime because they are trying to feed their kids or they are committing crime because they have a drug problem. but nobody is committing crimes because of a policy. after they committed the crime they might worry about the policy. i killed this guy, now i don't

want to get the death penalty. but you having the death penalty did not stop him from killing the guy, because he was hungry. it is almost laughable when you talk about policy. host: what you think about the connection between poverty and crime? guest: well, just because you are poor doesn't mean you decide to become a criminal. i sort of reject his general premise, or his suggested premise that he thinks i am starting from. i'm not saying that. in fact, you go to a lot of these parts of town where murders are happening and the folks there are law abiding, they want their kids to have a better life than them to get out of the neighborhood, go to college, be productive members of society. would like to sit down with sean and talk with him. i think he and i would agree on a lot of things. unfortunately i disagree with him. a lot of these criminals are not doing the crimes to feed their kids.

i wish they were caring about their kids and staying with keeping an intact family. but that is not many of the reasons they are committing crimes. yes, they are bettering their lives by stealing timberland shoes and all of the other stuff they are stealing from stores, but then they are turning around and flipping it and selling on ebay and elsewhere. that is what they are doing. host: let's talk to mike, murfreesboro, arkansas, independent line. caller: good morning, c-span. host: good morning, mike. caller: i heard mr. stimson state that a lot of these prosecutors were funded by george soros. i'm just curious, who funds the heritage foundation? i think it is funded by rich right-wing dollars, so they are skewed. guest: that is a great question. over 600,000 members around the country, starting from $25 a year and up. less than 2% by corporations.

if you want to contribute, mike, go right ahead. host: he does bring up soros, which you brought up. it is in the subtitle of your book. why is he such a -- why does he loom large for a lot of people that are critical? guest: first off, let's be clear. we are criticizing his policies. host: which are what? guest: his policies are funding these progressive prosecutors. by the way, people can look it up online, on july 21st, 2021, george soros wrote an op-ed. he is very proud of this. in chapter two of our book we trace the funds, about $50 million in direct spending, and perhaps up to $1 billion in indirect spending for groups and think tanks and others who are the progressive prosecutor

mantra. i think in this town we need to dial down the temperature and focus on policy and having legitimate policy disagreements without being disagreeable. and, you know, he is funding these things. if they are not turning out well and it is a failed social experiment, it is fair game for policy discussion. host: maryland, republican. mark, good morning. caller: the morning. a couple of things you just touched on concerning george soros. i'm not sure if they were being sarcastic or not. questioning george soros's funding of these d.a.s. i think it is called the open borders -- guest: open society. caller: thank you. he is the one funding a lot of this invasion that our southern border that is going on too.

the fact of the matter is, the best defense against a revolution is a stable society. and george soros has made it his mission to make our society unstable. he used to be that you could not bring up his name. if you even brought up his name you are called an anti-semite. i would assert that george soros himself is an anti-semite, considering he turned his own people into the nazis and later said if he had not done it he would -- somebody else would have done it. he said this in a 60 minutes interview. another point i want to make real quick. as far as these da's, there was a d.a. out of san francisco a couple of years ago that got recalled. if you want to know anything about chess obtain -- chesa boudain, he was raised by the founder of the weather underground.

his parents were actually doing prison time for killing a couple of new york city cops, i believe. host: right, mark. let's get the response. guest: we have a whole chapter in our book on chesa. his parents were involved in the weather underground and were responsible for the death of a person because of the bank robbery. we held a conference at berkeley law school. we had a clash of ideas, as you can imagine. involving criminal justice. again, look, in our book we never say that soros commits any crimes or violates any campaign-finance laws whatsoever. in fact, they are very fast eddie is in setting up these 527 political action committees called safety and justice pacs. those create independent expenditures that just so happen to be the progressive candidate. there is nothing wrong with

that. it is part of free speech. but if the policies they enact blowup in your face or are a failed social experiment, which is what is happening and we are seeing in in real time, it is fair game to criticize that. host: one more from boston. eugene, good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for c-span. you know, you made a comment earlier about the over policing in commonly black neighborhoods. that that was our situation when the government ran its highway system, they strategically ran it through every prosperous black business district there was in america, and then fill those neighborhoods up with guns, alcohol stores, drugs, and over policing. because you know that whites do

far more drugs than black folks, but you do not see why people over populating the jails and prisons with drug charges. and why is it that prosecutors often withhold evidence that they know can free people, but do not suffer any penalty for that? as a prosecutor if you come across evidence that points to a person's freedom and you withhold it, that is a clear violation of the law. and i do not see many prosecutors suffering any penalty for that. can you address that? guest: i would be happy to, eugene. first off, brady versus maryland is the supreme court case that requires prosecutors to turn over what is called exculpatory evidence. most prosecutors turn that, and more. those who don't, they are held to account by pretrial motions. secondly, this is 2024.

most major city police departments are majority minority and are run by minorities. so, i get this term, over policing. it is more of an opinion word or phrase than reality. over policing compared to what? not policing? i think police should go to where the crime is, to preserve people's public safety. host: that is all the time we've got. charles stimson, at the heritage foundation, thank you so much for joining us. coming up later on "washington journal," we will hear from emanuel cleaver. he will discuss the israel-hamas war, black voters, and campaign 2024. and congressional news of the day. but first, it is more of your calls and comments during open form. the number is, democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001.

and independents, (202) 748-8002 . we will be right back. >> get information from members of government right in the palm of your hand when you order your copy of c-span's 2024 congressional directory, with contact information for every house and senate member of the 118th congress. porton information on congressional committees, the president's cabinet, federal agencies, and state governors. congressional directory costs $32.95 plus shipping and handling. scan the code on the right or go to c-spanshop.org to order your copy today. >> the house will be in order. but this year c-span celebrates 45 years of covering congress like no other.

since 1979 we have been your primary source for capitol hill, providing balanced, unfiltered coverage of government. taking you to where the policies are debated and decided, all but the support of americans cable companies -- with the support of america's cable companies. 45 years and counting. powered by cable. >> since 1979, in partnership with the cable industry, c-span has provided complete coverage of the halls of congress. from the house and senate floors, to congressional hearings, party briefings, and committee meetings. c-span gives you a front row seat to how issues are debated and decided, with no commentary, no interruptions, and completely unfiltered. c-span. your unfiltered view of government. >> if you ever miss any of c-span's coverage, you can find

it anytime online at c-span.org. videos of the key hearings, debates, and other events feature markers that guide you to interesting and newsworthy highlights. these points of interest markers appear on the right-hand side of your screen when you hit play on select videos. this timeline to a makes it easy to get an idea of what was debated and decided in washington. scroll through and spend a few minutes on points of interest. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. it is open form. we'll be taking your calls on anything on your mind regarding what is going on in washington or around the world. one of the big stories is the death of iran's president. here is the front page of the washington post. you can see here the picture, rescuers recover bodies at the site in northwestern iran where

the iranian president's helicopter crashed on sunday. also, the foreign minister and other officials died in the crash. that is according to iranian state media. here is the article. the data adds to volatility in the middle east leadership shift comes amid rising confrontation between iran and israel. we will have a reporter in about 15 minutes on the program to give us an update about that story. and what is going on. and we will go straight to the phones to brenda, fort lee, new jersey. democrat. good morning. caller: good morning, america. i'm calling in regards to speaking about the president. i just think he could do much better. he was at a college giving a speech to the college, and it was so exaggerating on how he made things up.

and when he does talk, he talks nonsense. so disappointed in the president. and it comes to voting he is not getting my vote. i voted for him the last time. but i am voting for president trump. i think president trump, when he was in office he did a very, very good job bringing down prices, gas, and putting jobs for people. president biden is not doing much of that. he says he is, but he is in. i really hope things will change come november. and it is for the better. i'm voting for president trump. thank you for listening. host: right, brenda. let's talk to gary, in minnesota. independent line. caller: this is gary. northern minnesota here. president biden wants to sell u.s. steel, and i think this

would be the biggest mistake ever made for any president. like i said, my grandpa, he started mining iron ore for the second war before it even started. my dad was in the service fighting in the jungles and stuff for the war. i can believe the president wants to sell this. in minnesota they just put up a $160 million plant. i think the president should just wake up and fix our old steel mills up so we can be ready for war. because japan knows all of this, and even japan was saying, we are going to get even with this country because of the war, because we bombed them. we had better do something and wake up. i hope president trump, i don't know about him. we've got to get common sense in this country. get it going again.

if not we are in a world of hurting. these stockholders should wake up and think about the kids and grandkids. instead of just making money for themselves. i got so much to say. i'm 78 years old. everybody working the mines for 150 years. i think it is wrong of any president to sell u.s. steel to anybody. thank you very much. host: the republican line in huntsville, texas. joseph, hello. joseph, are you there? caller: anyhow, he started talking about supreme court rulings. i thought it would be a good idea, it is my belief the general population is very, very, very incompetent. how many people gave up their lives to study law?

talk about rated versus maryland, i wonder if folks know the difference between a brady bill and the law. in the one about the guns, you know, was ruled unconstitutional by the supreme court, but they are still enforcing it. that is my knowledge and belief. the supreme court ruled it is unconstitutional. a couple of other supreme court rulers, like i said, i wish she had been here. 684 and [indiscernible] u.s. 325. anybody can go look it up in verify whether i'm lying or not. one of the main things that got out of our court ruling is that

any witness can lie in a court of law without being punished. i mean, it states that in the supreme court ruling. people can verify whether online or not. bail bond versus state, i believe that was 1999 texas appellate court ruling, which really emphasizes the importance of the oath of office, and bonds, which i imagine the general population knows very little about. like i said, i really wanted to talk with him about it and get his opinion. host: right. sorry you missed that. benjamin is in michigan, line for democrats. good morning. caller: good morning. you were asking about the funding and this heritage foundation gentlemen you had on said there were 600 thousand donors, starting at $25. there is a hedge fund

billionaire that died in his 80's, i believe, within the last year, that donated $1.4 billion. to insinuate that $25 donations are funding the heritage foundation is hypocritical. thank you. host: roberto next in new jersey. republican. caller: hi. how are you doing? host: i'm doing ok. caller: i would like to comment on the president's death. during the funeral services i think the israeli mossad should be invited to piss on his corpse. host: bill in ohio. independent line. caller: yes, ma'am. good morning. first time caller. i've tried to call many times but did not get through. i would like to talk about the

trial for donald trump. i would like to know how the american people sit back and watch their congressman, who were supposed to be in washington, d.c., go to new york city to sit in on a trial for a man who is nothing but a criminal. everything he has ever done has turned out bad. everybody that ever worked for him has ended up in jail. and i am not certain how anyone can say, he did a great job. a great job at what? lowering taxes for billionaires while the american people paid away? -- pay the way? here is the real kicker. he asks his people to send him donations to pay for his court appearances and all of his criminal activity. i'm not certain how that works. i'm not certain how the american people are not smart enough to stand up and say, enough is enough, get this guy out.

the republican party is finished. otis in detroit, democrat, good morning. caller: yes. longtime c-span listener, and i have never been a caller, but i don't understand when a person calls in and says that donald trump is a great president, and then in 2020 they voted for biden, and now they are going to vote for donald trump because he is a great president in 2024. i think republicans need to stop pushing that narrative, because it doesn't make anyone sense. over policing, not only the gentleman who called previously, african-american, african-american communities were destroyed by the freeways that destroyed great businesses in african-american communities.

and drugs, guns are brought in, and the police come in, call it crime, but in the suburbs, white rural area, if you are caught with weed, they get slapped on the hand. in the african-american community you get 20 years or life. a prostitute can get convicted for prostituting, but the john's never are. that is whatever policing is. young white, black kid, the police will stop for tinted windows and give him a ticket. he has a joint, and he will get a federal charge. can't get pell grants, cannot get section eight. white kids have the same

situation. the suburb area get slapped on the wrist and gets told don't do it again. the republicans love to play that game. there is more crime. i'm not saying that president biden is trying to correct now is the problem with these freeways. the destroyed black neighborhoods. thank you. host: scott is on the republican line in illinois. good morning. caller: hello. can you hear me? host: yes, we can. caller: good morning, america. i try to say things when i get on c-span not to complain, but i wanted to say something. i try to say things and make the american people think about something. i will talk fast. i've got these south african farmers in illinois, and i asked one of them, he lives next door, i asked him if they were going to move to the united states. he said no, and i said why?

in south africa there was a dirt road out of the capital, and the chinese came in and built the road. well, south africa did not pay them for the road, so guess what? there is a diamond mind, ended up north there was a concrete plant. and china went in and expanded it to him times. the only concrete plant in south africa. and guess what? no south africans work there now. it is all chinese. so, he is saying he sees this country, we are turning this way with selling all of our farmland and the chinese, 30,000 coming over. what is going on in this country? thank you, america. please think about it and keep your eyes open. host: joining us now, we're just going to pause on our open forum and come right back to your calls. if you are on the line, do hold on and be patient with us, because we are joined by alexander ward. he is a national security reporter for politico, to

discuss the death of iran's president. look into the program. guest: thanks for having me. host: what can you tell us about what the situation in iran is, as far as where their foreign policy might be going? obviously they are dealing with a lot right now with the accidental death of their president. what do we know about how their foreign policy might change as far as their support for hamas and the houthis, etc.? guest: we are not expecting much change. you should expect generally the same foreign policy of iran in the weeks and months and years ahead. the supreme leader is still in charge, and he is the main person, even though there is not an iranian president. that person is typically number two were subservient to the will of the supreme leader. there's going to be a lot more

continuity in the days ahead. host: you've got an article with the headline "the one thing u.s. fears after iranian president's death," about the fear of blaming the united states. can you tell us about that? guest: that is something the united states has been worried about. and also blaming israel for the helicopter crash. that has not happened. so, perhaps the one thing everybody fears the most has not happened and will not come to pass. that would mean if the iranians were to blame u.s. or israel, that would be them saying, you killed our president. it is hard to believe they can walk away from that without some sort of major attack -- major retaliation. one reason the iranians are not doing that, even though that is part of their playbook, the fact that they are holding off for the moment. for the moment holding off. they are fearful of having to

retaliate, and we know after they'd tried to strike iran and all of those drones were shot down, and after israel retaliated, israel walked away from all of that. no one wants to escalate this crisis, even though tensions are high. host: tell us about mohammed, the vice president, who has now assumed the role of temporary present. guest: the thing to know about him is, american officials are very wary of him because he has been one of the masterminds for the closer partnership with russia. and especially in terms of the iranians sending drones and other weapons to use in ukraine. this is no moderate. again, someone who represents more continuity than change. as hardline as raisi was, the pool to pick from our hardliners. the acting president may not be the future president.

who knows? this signals you will see the same general question-iranian partnership. we talk about that axis of resistance, that is likely to continue. host: what is that transition going to be like and the timeline for electing a new leader? guest: it's going to be a few months before they have the election. i think they just announced this morning, although i don't have a date in front of me, effectively there will be some candidates, and then elections. of course we know in iran elections are more farcical than real. whoever the supreme leader ultimately wants is who they look at. we are seeing a succession crisis more than a political one. host: do we have any idea who those candidates can be? is there a favorite? guest: as of this moment i don't think there is one clear favorite. raisi is the one who is expected to eventually take over for the

supreme leader. he is old. that is the big secession issue coming forward. with raisi gone, who could be the next supreme leader? i guess is, he has someone in mind. but how you roll that outcome of course in a sensitive way, would be hard. that's going to be rolled out over the next couple of days, but i think you will see where this front turns out to be i think we can also safely assume he would like to replace him when his time ends. host: what are we expecting as far as any instability? given this transition, this unexpected event? and maybe the younger people who have been advocating for more freedoms in iran? are we expecting anything from them? guest: absolutely. there already is instability in iran. because of the protests that have been happening and the

crackdown on people seeking their own rights, especially women in iran. at this point you can expect them to make their voices heard. maybe ask for a more moderate candidate. i don't know if the people of iran have someone in mind, but they most certainly would not like to see more continuity. under raisi he led the crackdown. the nickname he had was the butcher of tehran. you have to imagine the iranian people, generally speaking, would not like to see raisi 2.0. host: alex ward, national security reporter for politico, thank you for joining us. guest: thank you for having me. host: this is the front page of the wall street journal with the headline, "iran wrestles with succession after president dies in crash this is a picture of mourners in tehran.

we are going to go back to your calls. john in san antonio, independent line. thank you for waiting, john. caller: thank you, love. i thought you all had just blown me off. i think about my life here as an american citizen, and i have all due respect for the united states of america. i am here, so i roll with it. but my heart and my soul ring out for this country. her absolute pretension. when i look at this country and i see the scars and the tears

that she has brought upon herself -- host: in what way, john? what are you talking about specifically? guest: what i'm talking about, here is a country that is supposed to be the light of the world. the whole world, ok? so, they say, president biden is supposed to be the commander-in-chief, then the leader of the free world. the leader of the free world. so, therefore the world, most of them would follow his instructions and his policies. but i don't see america doing that. i see america doing just the opposite. i don't want to be an agitator. i don't want to be seen as being

-- as social security branded me, as being a domestic terrorist. they sort of, like, halfheartedly apologized to me. after we conducted our investigation, we do not see you as being a threat to us or our employees. right? but you already put it out there online you already had me bought from every american agency on the planet. i can't go to visit social security, i'm not allowed in the employment service agency. i have been blacklisted. host: i'm sorry you are dealing

with that. raymond is next in baltimore, maryland. caller: how are you doing? host: oh, randy. caller: good morning to america. i was trying to get in when you had the gentleman on talking about police powers. but, you know, me as a democrat, and actually bipartisan. i call it like i see it. i would be glad when a lot of black americans will wake up and a lot of democrats will wake up that we had a big thing here in 2015, freddie gray, a young man who died in police custody. but the truth was not put out how this young man died. we had the black lives matter

movement and everything else. black lives matter is one of the biggest scams of all time, because if it truly mattered, then you waste all of this money for this organization, then why are you not in the urban community trying to help young black males and females to better their self, educate their self? how to make investments within their families. he was 100% correct. you have the organizations run by these billionaires, george soros. bloomberg is also involved, and a few other people. they find their money to these politicians. our senators, our president, as well as the governors and our mayors. they follow their lead.

they implement these policies, which trickle down to the local law enforcement. and, you know, defund the police. i had to its claim to my nephew, you never heard of the fund the police within the black language. and they were saying that. and saying to myself, you are saying something you don't understand. so, you had one party with the democrats was running this city like baltimore for the longest, and it looked like a war town. so, i just want people to wake up and you have a lovely day. host: richard in chicago, independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. i am opposed to president biden's plan to ban mental cigarettes. i don't want america to be like the european union, with mental cigarettes band. -- banned. i also believe that cigarette packs should show the

ingredients that are added to cigarettes. canada does this with cyanide. they put it on the side of the package, that it has cyanide in it. the u.s. should put the ingredients on the packs, and also should give tips to smokers on how to smoke less. not just quit, but smoke less. host: do you smoke, richard? caller: yes i do. host: are you trying to quit? caller: i'm trying to smoke less. i've got a patch, and it works a little. it is very expensive too. this is something that should be covered by insurance for the poor. nicotine patches and gum.

i believe that would get the public to smoke less. also we do see taxes on cigarettes. cigarette retailers in big cities or scalp in the public when it comes to smokes. this [indiscernible] with the high price of cigarettes. that is my comment. thank you. host: on the line for democrats. anthony, hello. caller: hey, mimi. thanks for coming in. anyway, i just wanted to call -- i wasn't going to call, but after hearing john from san antonio and randy from wisconsin , something i have been thinking about a long time, i think we are not doing enough, especially president biden. i am a democrat. this thing in the middle east, you know, war is hell.

we are not doing enough to get our u.s. hostages back. i know they say they are doing everything they can every day. i know antony blinken is playing "keep on rocking in the free world." i wish he would use that time to get out on the airwaves everyday, president biden included, saying, release the hostages. and then this war will be over. what we need to do is release the hostages. let's try to get a movement for that. i would appreciate it. host: thank you. i just want to mention to you and others that antony blinken will be testifying about his recent trip to ukraine, the ongoing fighting between israel and hamas, and the president's 2025 budget request.

we will be carrying that live. it is going to be the senate foreign relations committee. you can also see it on c-span now, our free mobile video app, or online at c-span.org. also, if you are interested in hearing more from secretary of state antony blinken, he will be testifying as well on wednesday, tomorrow, at 2:00 p.m., again on c-span3. joe, boaz, alabama. go ahead, joe. joe, are you there? in alabama? no? bill in northbrook, illinois. independent. caller: yes. thank you for taking my call. as most of your viewers, about the israeli-hamas war, i never

hear any of the following questions answered. why are hamas and israel not directly negotiating and everything is being negotiated, basically as a mediation in qatar with the u.s.? number two. what is the state of the hostages? if a person were negotiating, a man had taken hostages in a house, you would not negotiate with that individual until you know what the status of the hostages -- hostage is. i never hear any discussion of how many of these 130 people are alive. what is their status? or are most of these people dead? the third is, nobody ever explains how the rules of war apply.

hamas is not fighting for a country. they are basically fighting -- they are not in uniform. many of the rules of war involve, if you are fighting in a uniform and for a country. i listen to all of these shows, and really a lot of the important stuff, nobody is answering. that is my comment. i'm looking for answers to some of those questions, and i thank you. host: dean in creole, alabama. line for democrats. caller: yeah, i wanted to talk about the hamas situation. i served in the navy and spend some time in bahrain. the government has been trying to handle the issue and have not been successful. i admit, it is a difficult situation, but i think we are running out of options. during that time when i was in the navy i had a sock under my

bed. host: another couple of items for your information, as far as your schedule goes. coming up today, so, right after this program at 10:00 a.m., in about 45 minutes we will show your energy experts testifying on the growing demand for electric power in the u.s. and its impact on the electric grid. you can watch this senate energy and natural resources committee hearing live here on c-span, c-span now, or on c-span.org. also today at 2:30 p.m., a hearing on roadway safety could -- safety, with testimony from transportation policy advocates and local officials before a senate commerce, science, and transportation subcommittee. that is live at 2:30 p.m. on c-span3. also on c-span now and c-span.org.

let's take a look at what the secretary of defense lloyd austin said about that helicopter crash in iran. >> mr. secretary, are you concerned that iran is going to try to blame israel or the united states for the crash that killed the president yesterday? israel is also conducting an operation in northern gaza. although they had previously said they defeated hamas there. particularly given your personal experience fighting terrorists, do you believe israel can achieve its goal of fully eliminating hamas? >> united states had no part to play in that crash. that is a fact, plain and simple. >> and israel? are you afraid they are going to blame israel? >> i will not speculate. again, they have to conduct an investigation to see what the cause of the crash was. it could be a number of things.

mechanical failure, you name it. host: that was the secretary of defense from yesterday. we will take a call on the republican line from mark in old indio, washington. morning. caller: morning. we had a kid calling me. gas prices down. i will go for donald trump in 2024. host: and richard in marietta, california. independent. caller: yes, hello. richard is my name. yeah, we don't talk much about spirituality at all, because there are so many viewpoints of spirituality. but, i mean, i don't like a

little bit of both party, main parties, republicans and democrats, myself. i think most people should just adjust to whoever gets, you know, elected, and personally i have a spiritual life i live. and it is still our purpose as a spiritual person to kind of help people know god. reaching out to them, sharing our faith, and making a change in their life, a more spiritual life. listen to messages in church i go to, and hand out business cards. that is our life, our spiritual life. that is what we as spiritual people concentrate on. it doesn't matter what president gets elected. i have been having a very fulfilled life. i the president doesn't get

elected, it doesn't matter. i hope the people take a more spiritual point of view and you will have a better life. host: right, richard. that is all the time we have for open form, because coming up missouri democratic representative emanuel cleaver discusses the israel-hamas war. black voters. and campaign 2024. and congressional news of the day. stay with us. >> nonfiction book lovers, c-span has a podcast for you. listen to nonfiction offer -- authors on the afterwards podcast. and on q&a, hear wide-ranging conversations with nonfiction authors and others making things happen. book notes plus episodes are weekly conversations that regularly feature fascinating authors of nonfiction books on a

wide writing -- a wide variety of topics. the about books podcasts takes you behind-the-scenes, with insider interviews, industry updates, and best sellers lists. find all of our podcasts by downloading the free c-span now app, or wherever you get your podcasts, and on our website. c-span.org/podcasts. >> the house will be in order. >> this year c-span celebrates 45 years of covering congress like no other. since 1979 we have been your primary source for capitol hill, providing balance, unfiltered coverage of government. taking you to where the policies are debated and decided, all with the support of america's cable companies. c-span. 45 years and counting. powered by cable. >> c-span now is a free mobile app featuring your unfiltered

view of what is happening in washington, live and on-demand. keep up with the day's biggest offense with live streams of floor proceedings and hearings from the u.s. congress, white house events, the courts, campaigns, and more from the world of politics. all at your fingertips. you can also stay current with the latest episodes of washington journal and find scheduling information for c-span's tv networks and c-span radio. c-span now is available at the apple store and google play. scan the qr code to download it for free today, or visit our website. c-span now. your front row seat to washington, anytime, anywhere. >> "washington journal" continues. host: i'm dying. we are joined now by democratic representative emanuel cleaver. he represents missouri's fifth district. he is also a ranking member on the financial services subcommittee on housing and insurance.

congressman, welcome to the program. guest: good to be with you thank you. host: want to start with the international criminal court requesting arrest warrants for leaders of hamas and is really prime minister netanyahu. your reaction to that? guest: there is a level of false equivalency here that enters into our political lexicon, much too often then i would prefer. by that i mean, where we are now is come israel obviously is trying to weed out hamas. however, the casualties of civilians has been much too high for me. and millions of others. but to suggest that what israel is doing is equivalent to what

hamas has and continues to do, is a level of false equivalency that is intolerable. they probably are doing some damage to the relationship between israel and the rest of the world when there come out and say, there is no difference between israel and hamas. that is an insult to people of decency all over the world. that is not to say that israel has not done some things that would rather they had not done, but it is not equivalent to hamas. host: there are reports that house republicans are considering putting a bill on the floor. the speaker had said something about that as early as this week. what is your reaction to that? guest: i'm not sure i know exactly what they are going to put on the floor. quite often they put god she legislation on the floor. in other words, they are not

looking for a solution in terms of the legislation. it is to try to separate people on this issue and get some people in trouble back home. if they are not able to vote in a way that is compatible with their home district. they are not going anywhere. i have seen that over my 19 years it comes to the point, because the people at home don't know. when you introduce a piece of legislation, the chances of a passing, legislation like this, is almost minus zero. the people at home do not know that, so amber's take advantage of their own constituencies by putting up fake legislation. i hope this will not be, because this is a real issue and we ought to address it. the united states ought to stand behind the administration and our ally, israel.

that they have gone too far and we are not going to back away from israel. host: the question is, what should be done? in the hill is reporting that senator lindsey graham says in this article, he is quoted in this article as vowing sanctions against against them. do you agree with him? guest: no. it is one step too far into the world of ridiculous ideas. it is not really call for another. international court,,,, must all people in the western world. i do not think we can continue by attacking them.

host: we will be taking your calls. democratic representative of missouri is here. you can give us a call. for independent callers, you can call (202) 748-8002. we also have a line you can text at (202) 748-8003. i wanted to ask you about this reporting by reuters that says israel that to broaden the sweep among heavy fighting in gaza. what are your views on a cease-fire and conditional military aid for israel?

guest: i think we need a cease-fire. there is only one hostage that has been taken, but we do not know how many are still alive. in situations like that, that is your brother, cousin, son. i'm trying to see is through the eyes of progeny. i think we have to be very careful going into rafah because it will give hamas another opportunity to try to paint israel as -- there will be casualties. there will be women and children. it will not help our

international image. host: what about military aid to israel? guest: it is down to the point where they are in jeopardy. now we see in europe. when we holdback vital military equipment, we can now see what happens. the russians have made all kinds of progress, a nation that they claim to be part of russia, which it is not, but we have to be careful. i do not think there is any way or anything that would justify the threat. i am a little bit concerned. we have some bombs that would

wipe out everything within 400 yards. host: you are a member of the congressional congress and a former chair of it. talking about the administration's accomplishments for black americans. what dcs the biden administration's accomplishment? >> -- guest: they have upped the amount of money they have put into colleges and universities. i know that it is going to create a higher number. i think it is a good deal. i think they have done things,

but there are also concerns about the economy. infrastructure things, like that. it is impactful for african-americans. the older parts of town are where the african-americans are going to reside in big numbers. when you talk about infrastructure, the oldest infrastructure will be right there. that will impact the whole community. make no mistake. host: there is growing apprehension among democrats about president biden's loss of support among black voters. his support is going down, especially among black men. why do you think that is?

>> i think -- i am qualified to at least say that because of the elite components of our culture, black men have historically projected an image of strength, power and resistance. so i think donald trump comes out with that and there is nothing concrete. he is strong. if you are not -- i think african-american men will come around and realize that what mr.

trump is trying to present -- it is a dangerous part because we start pushing and do not tolerate any resistance. i am going to be act. -- react. host: i wanted to ask you about the op-ed that you did for the hill, which has this headline. congress must commit to bipartisanship. is that still possible? guest: it is possible. it is interested in civility. it would like to see us conduct ourselves in a manner.

if you are in some kind of dispute, let them handle it. i do not think we project that kind of an image. i would hope that members come to the conclusion that if they want to talk about congressional matters, there need to be congressional members. host: joanne is on the line. good morning. caller: i am calling in to say that it is really sad -- we are caught up in this world today and it becomes so religious about worshiping a man. that is not what god wants us to do. we worship no man. they are just like everybody else. to say that the members of the

house are coming down here to new york to support a man that is guilty and that they are not doing their job for the people. i hope in 2024 that the democrats get the house back. thank you. host: what were your views on them going to the courthouse? guest: i thought it was a bad look. the person second in line for the presidency should not be stepping in front of a court of justice with arguably the fairest judicial system on the planet. are tearing all of our

institutions down. i really do not think that johnson looked at what he was doing. i do not want to come across as someone who believes this is the time in history to tear down institutions. it is a good shot. host: st. paul, minnesota, independent. caller: good morning. i wanted to go over some of the numbers. there has been ongoing conflict since october 7. at least 1100 people were killed. no civilians should be harmed. i think we can both agree on that. in palestine, so many people have been killed. at least 50,000 children.

in the west bank, there have been 505 people killed, at least 225 children. my question is, what about october 8, october 9 and every day until now. what about all of those debts? are you putting those over the lives of those in gaza? is that your logic? guest: i hope you did not interpret that to be my logic. it was john dunn, the british preacher who said -- any death is troublesome. in war, it is even more so.

i hope i did not say anything that would say that it was ok for either side to kill the other side at all. what happened with hamas attacking israel, going in and killing people, there is no way that we could ever embrace that. i think we have to be very careful. and watch for what revenge would cost us. i was angry as well. by sometimes, when we allow anger to be our leader, we do some dumb things. we have to be careful as we go that we support israel, hoping that they will not mirror what

we did, spending so much money for terrible loss of life on both sides. caller: good morning, congressman. i heard you say a few minutes ago that liberal congress is helping black colleges and it was trump that expanded it for years. he cannot believe it. they had to get approval. i just -- what he did the prison reform, all i saw from the democrats in college is shift saying that we had the goods on trump and it was always impeached, impeach.

never gave him credit for reform, for helping black colleges. he had a lot of infrastructure for areas of the underprivileged , black, brown, it did not matter what color. there is a lot of tension. host: what do you think? guest: first of all, i will not accept that prison reform is a black issue. it needs to be universal. if we get into the issue, history will show. it is irrefutable. he did sign it.

there was a push from some republicans and the deal was not at the urging of the president. scott from richmond, virginia actually crafted that legislation. donald trump signed the legislation. the largest amount of money in history. host: we have a question for you from a handle. they are drawing an equivalent. please specify and comment on the charge. the equivalent talking point is just that. it does not object -- address the substance. showing why some of those are,

they are being charged directly for using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare. and intentionally directing attacks against a civilian population. guest: every time a baby dies, every time a noncombatant dies, every time a human being dies, it bothers me. and i value those lives. i have said it repeatedly. men and women of decency look at the situation for what it is. too many people have been killed in gaza. you cannot equate the palestinians with hamas.

mixing the two together is just wrong, and we should not do it. host: he feels the israeli leaders their responsibility for how they have executed the war in gaza? guest: i am one of those people -- i have to say. i do not like president netanyahu. i do not like him. i think someone else should prosecute this more. i hope they make the decision quickly. host: in pensacola, florida, good morning. caller: good morning, washington journal and good morning representative. i have a quandary that i have not been able to figure out. i know that the jews have been a

statehood since 1948 or 1925. but this thing about them taking over the west bank, bringing american jews to live over there on the palestinian land -- i say to myself it is terrible what happened october 7, just terrible, but why did they attack the jews? maybe -- my mind has to know, was it because they were taking over their land? why was there an attack in the first place? can you help me? >> it is true there has been some expansion.

-- guest: it is to there has been some expansion into their land. and i do not think that the response would lead to cold-blooded killing of young people or the raping of women, the injuring of many civilians. many of them probably supported the palestinian cause in getting economic strength in the nation. just saying that i do not think that what hamas did -- i do not

think what israel is doing in iraq with the current death toll as it is his doing the right thing either. host: so in alabama. good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. representative khanna you have made several contradictory statements this morning. i would just like to clarify. first, you, with a statement that you are raised in the public housing. if he walked around, he had to walk it not just talk it. just 90's that you are a man of peace. you cannot be both. we need -- you need to educate

yourself about the land of israel. the land of israel was given by god, if you are a christian, you should know this. if -- the land was given to the jewish people by god almighty. just one quick statement. i know you are going to be around the bush when you answer. you have a member, cory bush that is corrupt and close to -- i will take your answer. host: congressman? guest: first of all, we do not require religious tests in the u.s. i have a masters degree in divinity.

i have a degree in social work. i have been -- had gone to church for 37 years and most of my life. i have been involved inside the church. i delivered probably two to 3000 sermons. it may be important for all of us to understand that christianity is not in the constitution. that word is not in the constitution. many of the founders were not religious at all. and so, i do not want to come in and impose my denomination onto the people. there was an attempt. i have whose gambling.

however, when the people voted, i signed it. likewise, to represent the people and do -- in my congressional district. i am doing as best i can with that, trying to not impose my theology on others. host: mark is calling us from silver spring, maryland. caller: first, social policies, you do not disagree at all, but i do want to stress a certain casualty that has been misrepresented. another word for that is lies.

of these 35,000 people, people who have died, even israel acknowledges that. but hamas and other terrorist fighters -- when people talk about 70% of the deaths are women and children, that is not true. it is closer -- based on the numbers i presented, i am no expert, but i get this from public agreements. it is closer to 43 to 45% of the civilians, the deaths that are fighters. in terms of starvation etc., it is awful.

what we see is, when supplies of food etc. enter gaza, they are hijacked by hamas. so, the people are being used as leverage for hamas's purposes while people suffer. again, it is critical not to be persuaded by, oh my god, 70% of the deaths are civilian, they are women and children. that is blatantly false. and the press, and cnn, the times, etc., if you present a casualty and try to be balanced, present the same sentence that 15,000 or 35,000 are hamas and

other terrorist fighters. host: we got that point. any comments? guest: i do not know that we will know the truth completely until this is over when we get more. host: 10 on the independent line. caller: i guess the biggest and loudest message that israel sent the world was the situation where they blew a hole in a car that was clearly marked. from what i understand, the world kitchen is quite a

reputable organization. they did it not once but twice, but they did it three times. the message sent was, you will not see these people. with regards to the last guy, war is always about the civilians. you can talk about the geneva convention all you want, but civilian women, children, the infirm -- they are going to suffer. a population will suffer. when they did that, to me it said that in clear, you will not feed these people. guest: i think that the fact that we have human beings starving is troublesome. the whole world should be troubled by it. sometimes, we have to be troubled.

the group calling themselves hamas have done some awful things. i would love to see them out of the palestinian territory so that the palestinians who live in that area are able to have a life. at the same time, but i do not want to happen is having a seven-year-old or eight-year-old watching at his uncle or dad is killed. that plants the seed of terrorism in him so in 15 years, we have a new hamas. we have to be careful with how we treat the situation. in many ways, it determines what is going to happen 10 to 15

years down the road. you cannot shoot your way into a five-speed community in the middle east. host: john. caller: good morning. i read the words of many. i have heard it discussed so far with the representative who did not like benjamin netanyahu, but there is fundamentally nothing different regarding the policies of benjamin netanyahu that are any different from the founding of israel. they seek to eliminate palestinians from their foundation. i'm wondering where he is getting his history from where palestinians will be able to vote this problem way because

they are not able to vote in israeli elections. these people have been pushed into a corner historically until their only option left is the resistance movement that we are seeing. much like we saw the people creating barbarous acts against them for decades. what more could you ask these people to do? they were killed. some were assassinated, shot in the neck by israelis. host: john, we are running out of time. i wanted to get this posting. congressman, you comfortable dealing with colleagues who attempted to overthrow the

ve