sand upon whichmore than the fate of a war but rather the course of human history. >> we remember those who fell and we honor all who fought right■çv here in normandy. >> watch c-span's live all day special coverage of the 80th ni d-day thursday, june, featurg a speech by president biden from normandy, france. fuller white house chief of staff mick mulvaney, bill beatty and mac make moderately shatopic -- of its ae job and their memory of the pre. hosted by the university of chicago institute of pithour 10 minutes. reading up,the biography of jam,

ronald reagan's chief of staff, probably the chief of staff to chief of staff. when you say and peter baker and susan glass's biography of him. and they said he kind of rejected this high minded concepts like loyalty or being an honest broker as the most important aspect of being a chief of staff. he was asked by a new york times poo the most important skill that a white house ch seepossess. and he said that skill was -- detector. he said, it's my job to keep the president■çts gets into trouble, to get him out of it. so i wanted to kind of open with that that notion,ivenhe role he plays sort of in the history of chiefs, of staff to presidents. ñjx!evybwhh president you remind worked for and if you agree with that and iatt't the main characteristic that you thought you brought to the job,

al thing that you brought that either got you chosen for the role or thatral u executing it for the president? and do you want me to start right off here and do it? well, i'm very blessed. ipresident ronald reagan, president george h.w. bush, bu. and the first thing i would say is, if you want to b for the job. i don't kno applied for the job that got the job. so it's it's not. and the present monster.com. com or indeed looking for one. so the first responsibility is to ignore the responsibility that's been given. and i'll just tell you my story. when i was asked to be the taff, i thought he was really asking me to run his transition into then he made it pretty clear that he was talking about, quote, the big one. he didn't give a definition to the word big until after

and the hanging chads had all fallen to the ground. and let's all go there and ha ha ha. i chaired gore's campaign a few times in counting chads. no, but seriously, when he said that, he asked me to be. it was the morning after the election when he asked me to be as chief of staff, and i said, we have a lot to talk about. i said, first of all, if i become your chief of staff, i you'and i don't want to let you. down. but i cannot be your friend. yon' at me with all kinds of things. because you don't want to hurt your friend. no. you've got permission to hurt me. number two, i your cadence of and live my cadence the same way you live yourincompatible.

i'm an early morningson. he's an early morning person. so his cadence of wti what do you like to do? do you exercise? do you do devotions? u what's your cadence like? i want to know your cadence so that i canour cadence and i try to impose a cadence on you that yofe threat. you have to allow me to say truth to power. you. and i'm not going to be afraid to say truth to power. and you shouldn't be afraid to challenge said you have to have the courage to fire me when you want me to be fired. okd i would respect it. and finally i said, my wife is myything i do. if my wife cannot be my partner being chief of staff, it won't work. that does'should work at the wh. but if she is not in my life, i wo have anybody helping to

carry the burdens. i won't share the secrets with her, but i definitely want to share the burden with her. and he said, of course, i love kathy. and i said, no, you don't count. what does and so he said, let's go talk to. we went out in the kitchen and talked to laura bush. i had the privilege of working under president rgan, where i saw jim baker be chief of staff as part of a troika of i don't think that was jim baker's best tani don't think it was the best model for a chief of staff when jim b i think he was the very best chief of staff.so it's also what's the authorities, as the president gives a staff and build camaraderie in the white house? and finally, i'm going to quote from a professor from harvard, on the white house organization. colleagues would agree with the first one is the caring feeling

you want to make sure the president is able to make brutally tough anywhere, any, wh means you have to pay attention to his state of his emotional health, his spiritual health, his physical health, th. so that's number one, the caring for a president. you never talk about. that is a job for a chief of staff,utbe president because y'y well cared for. his luggage doesn't get lost in air force one shows up. the gasolinear gets there on time. aronone works. if you're the president, you're pretty well cared for. you worry you don't worry aboute things. and and so that's a big pajoat d that's policy formulation. and usually that's not giving advice on policy. it's discipline. the people who are giving advice on policy not to bully other people out of the process and to

make sure the president doesn't get monolithic counsel. and the final thing is, roger porter said, is marketing if the president makes a decision and nobody knows about t. did the president make a decision? and the answer is no. thehiimplement anyn. it's implemented by other people in government or by congress of the united0 nations or a king or queen or a potentate. so you have to communi w the president's decisions are in such a way that they will be respected. and when they'reey'll lift up te president's expectation. watching the chiefs of staff who serve president reagan, president george h.w. bush, and these. so we've set the table pretty well. and i think we're going to unckent segments about speaking truth to power and what career care and feeding means. this questions about your secret, your& superpower. yours was, i think, cathy,

earlier morning and i assume ■?ffee. so what was your what was your secret power? rets anymore in washington, so. but but first of all, after all those conditions in the fact you got thei was with president oba1 right after a election, 2010, when the tea party took over. disastrous. i thought it was pretty good. i' america. ■ oh. and i'm in the middle of this. i'm in theour good friends. and i think baker's comment about basically being free of the phrase that but that's becas into the ovalét office. that's good, basically because it has to be decided by the president. nobody else wants to make decision and he's got to make it. so it'situation.

but each though the job has been around for a while, it really is about the president's style and how you i mean, again, he laid out about president bush 43, was at react. and so you've got to have a sense of that. have i knew president obama nowhere near as well as likeny or mack knew the two presidents they so his style was very bottom l'e got to be honest, you've got to be direct. and andlso try to keep away every as andy said. and i think would say the same, the most important thing may be to speak truth to o love of how so-called powerfulwoul

come into the oval office, especially business leaders. i'm going to go in there and i got to tell. him. yeah, sure. that's right. i get in there, they melt and,

you know, they say, well, you're doing a great job. and i was like, wait a minute. he just said he wa anyway. but but then the fr y say to th, here's what he really wanted to tell you. and after the fa that in front of him very much so the number one quality is you have going to talk about the honesty and the ups and the pros and cons of honesty. wh■ do you think was the now you of course, you were in a specialhad known the president really your whole lives. relationship going into it. was that your greatest asset or do you think it was something else? well, i would say first. first of all, let me say, jennifer, i'm delighted. i feel like it's a■ privilege to be here both on this virtual on my fellow chiefs. that's number one. way i viewedt is trust is the coin

of the realm. as george shultz■wnk to be a chief of staff, you've got to have a measure or a measure of trust and res, al respect with the president in order to do your jobly here. if you're right, i had known the president from=e were lifelong friends, but i had never worked with or for him when he was governor for ten years. in our state. i had fl businessman. i had helped him establish the democric council, the new democrat movement, which he ran on. bill, as you'll remember. great to be in your hometown, by the way. mr. daley. daley public services and daley in chicago were all kind ofioti so that was a new experience. i did not expect administration. i was chairman and chief executive of a new york stexcha. and as my wrf 5■vus years, donnl

you, we had one son at and inown and a senior at little rock. so i know anticipation i would serve. the president asked me the night after the election toas chief oi remember the howard■s baker sto, who was married to joy dirks, the venerable senator here from illinois who had been the minority leader make is, you mb, and he was chief of staff to president reagan later. but he came in, he was asked to see reagan andy in the oval office during a difficult period. and he told joy dirksen, there's no way i'm going to take that ■[ it's a chief javelin catcher. i'm not going to do that. he gets in with president reagan. he's to. ho, rouble. i need you. the country needs you and howard baker said, yes, sir, i'll be honored tohe point. in my case here, you friend, a f compatible on political

philosophy, asking you to serve him, support him, and serve the country. and clearly, the answer after reflection and discussion is yes, sure, it'll be an honor to do so. and did yofe■' that that personal friendship you talked about having to put the you able to do that, or do you think you were alwaysdhood friend? lifelong? no, i think we had that understanding and wour differen, maintaining a relationship that was separate from t and i d him, why do you think i would be the staff? i'd been actively involved in pocseen on the democratic national committee and so forth. again, simpatico from a political standpoint, but still had not expected to serve. he said, i need someone i can

trust who's compatible and i'll keep maybe a reality check and keep me straight and tell me the truth and tell me when we're not s the kind of relationship we had. i must say, and i again, never worked with or for gove clinton, he took credit. cism wel iea of always offered it in private. it was respectful. he was not going to be a leak and see it in the washington post. sometimes he didn't like it, but he understood. we had the kind ofed. well, you've set up some some tantalizing entrees here, because i would like we're going to talk some more about when you had to say these tough thing so you worked for a president who we've kind of talked about, you presidents over a generation. but the nms sound basically the same. you worked for a president who looked more different in style than those guys, probably in term norms and how they how

he administered and how that whitusdo you concur with these gentlemen about what was important for yout the job and e able to run it? yes, i wasningo the other three gentlemen talked. i imagine the venn diagram of of the four different sort of pect that we have. and there's a lot of overlap, but there's a lot that's very, very different. i had a different relationship with donald trump from the beginning. i had actually worked for him before i was the office of management budget director. and if you go back and you look, become chief of staff after that position, aft irector is probably with the president as much as anybody else. person who took the job for trump who had actuallywnrein didn't know him. reince priebus didn't know. i'm john kelly had worked for physically remote.ecre and then mark meadows came out of congr for a year, so i knew what i was getting into. and he said, if you want the job, don't ask for it. i went in on a friday night because■&■js at the time.

i was the omb director and i ran a place called the consumu, and that job had just stopped. and i wand o full time jobs for a year and i walked in to northern ireland, which is a job i had always wanted. and trump goes, great idea. we'll do it afterwards. >chief,. first. and he did not ask for trust. relationship was about. he wanted somebody to fix things. he knew that the place was busted. he knew that it was a it was a bad environment and the president and the former chief did not get along. and the morale i■ really bad. asd he he thought what i sort of, in his mind, a ternary. d fix things, which is why it was always an acting even though i was there 15 months and probably on the job longer than than than the other it was always there for a purpose, which was to turn the place around.but when you talkee

cadence of life, i remember sitting there, you know, because dn offered the chief's job. i went and my wife was actually waiting for me in my office to go to dinner. explain this? i said, i said, do what you do. he's like, what? you only sleep like 4 hoanight. i can't do that. he goes, so how do you want to do it? i said, well, i'll tell you , i'll work with 6 a.m. to 8 p.m. and i'll have a team come onrks ll two. and he slept every night from about two until six. it.id that way you've that's great. by the way, he always respected that. hos the entire time i worked at. and i'm still to this day think he called me at 11.of time he could tell i was really sorry. e boundaries, but it was a different kind of relationship. i talked to you a little bit before i took the gig, and i talked tjo bolten, and i came here how i found you and i found josh because josh had been o'brien. that was robert o'brien. that's exactly right. and i read the book. i had read thek. i ran home and read the book on

gatekeepers about how to be a good chief of staff.ri and i'm sitting there going, okay, this is what iememr. you said it a little bit, but josh said it a lot. and this goes to your question. e archight? there is no one perfect chief of staff. it has to ifntng upon the president and oftentimes depending upon it can ch f to president. you can be in a first term or a second term, you can be going reelect. what a good chief of staff is. will can always be different. and that's the one takeaway i met. you got the four venn fits. diagrams and there's three or four or five things that all fit together. obama orh yethat's right. that is interesting, too, because i think i read a story recently that zaneaydoing thingr example, very different style. necessarily the personal style of whether you really contrmaking. it sounds more like it's about yourso what you and you laid it,

n duties, which of those are the hardest in terms of the things that you kind of laid out is the remit of the chief of staff. what for you was the most difficult? the president should alws attract the best and the brightest to work at the white house. and even if it's not true, but was that that was challenging? i guess it's because if you are truly one of the best and the brightest, egohe chief of staff's job is to make sure the ego doesn't get in the way of good counsel to the president. so i would say candidly, the toughest part of the managing the personalities of these very competent people that the president hired. so that they were not the president. and when you were advising the president and when you say that, whowhat cheney, johnto bolton, .

john bolton. cet people. they're competent and you do yoa memory of having to check times and any you should have dealt with -- holbrooke seriously? the the challengthereople who ge the president want their view to be the accepted view. and so if you have a dominant personality, you kind of cry crowd out some other meager person in the room who is also just as competent. so i would police that and maybe during a meeting and i'd say sally really has more that she'd like to say. what do you think, sally? or i would say after the meeting to the president, you know, so-and-so kind of dominated the discussion.

i know that jim had a lot more to say, mr.resident, you might want to call jim and see what he had to say. so those were sensitive things to do because you don't want to eliminate good to invite it. but you want to make sure the president is making the■ decisin rather than being bullied into the decision or think that the purely just the president's with no advice and counsel. he needs advice and counsel. we live in a pluralistic society. actually, today we live in a my way or the highway society. and i'd pluralistic society where there are different views, there should be different views, they should be heard and they should be debated. so does that resonate with you or what would you say was the hardest part? does that sound simegos of of te people that are on the staff or in the cabinet who■[ always feel dissed because they've got some young kid at the white house who

thinks they know more and they et person and the cabinet person was either a major player. and they always feel that nobody listens to them and and you've got a lot of■# talent in most of these cabinets, and they have íxegos because they've been arod most of them for a long time. that's why they got the job. an■nd sa■8 that was the most difficult. but i think in these yeverybodya triple are. and and the competition enormou. and you also know that pba eight out of ten people that you're dealing with and a staffer in the cabinet all think they couo you can do. and maybe they can. but but mana those egos around the president is really ugh and i'll try with you. anyone come to mind? anything, any example that you might have with that? maybe.

no, an anecdote of of the of the policy that was where those egos got most. well, between obama was really good at he would not let someone dominate a conversation and he would go you know, like go to church and you kind of hide in . so nobody sees you. you could not do that in meetings with him. w backbenchers in parliament. well,taff people, the principals would say what they want,haobama was such that he would then kind of figure out,affing that principal and and he asked them and put them on the spot for their opiniohichas awkward because you knew that person was thinkingboss. i was the secretary sitting at the "

so engaging? you meanr engaging. so did that dynamic these gentlemen have described? how would you describe your challenge is completely would i t out of the business side and the politics aslinton,s engaged in big intellect, a lot of curiosity, a lot of energy, let's get all of it done. done in a hurry. no, mr. president, we need to prioritize here. ep our eyes on the proverbialrize. if you look back in history, our most any president and judged be th really the hallmarks of aceency or unsuccessful presidency. so that's e in our case, as bill certainly, esident

clinton had only gotten 43% of the vote. as candidate.t 19% of the vote and president bush remaining of the vote. and it was somewhat of a surpri until the last month. and is you you'll remember, because prest bush was such a gentleman, such a great man, great president, had the gulf war, all of that. but the economy, it was the economy, stupid. as james carville pointed out in the campaign. so to me, the real prize was number one. the president had run on the economy. we economy, job creationisin tide lifts all boats. secondly, this was a young gorn arkansas who was not well known even after that campaign. so it was essential that he step on the world stage in a sure footed manner as he met foreign

leaders andlt with foreign policy issues. prosperity. and i'll remember forever gone through a similar process. you know,hey made a great point about what what cadence are you what sequence aou chief of staff? is that the beginning of a term or end of a termr man was at the beginning of the clinton gore prey, t before thes the sacred oandy knows full welg experienced 911 with president. you were briefed on the nuclear codes and the passing of the football. that's a somber moment in our case, general colin powell was head of the joint chiefs and i assure you, general powell, when he in a room, filled it up immediately, both in stature ellect and presence. so the nighthouse, general poweg

the president, naturally of or in may, his chof staff. and we discussed how many minutes you have to respond to a nuclear attack and the passing of the football. and i'll remember as long as i live, probably despite some loss of memory over time he, looking into the president's eyes, we kind of locked sacred responsibility of any cma chief. so i always felt, jennifer, my b to focus the president and the white house and the cabinet. prize. peace andro i thinkboomer, i dia businessperson, i did not in ba. i talked the president about it and make, of course, was omb director. you understand it very, very well. but as we move into the first

term, the economy started to we had low inflation, but real productivity. and all of a sudden you begin to kind of whittle aw a that to mes our our were our goals. now, mike, i don't know if you are going to say share that view of managing people's opinions. if so, i'm curious about that ent trump in the in the media was that he was a person who was very captive to the last person who spoke to. i don't know if that's true or not you can truth squad that from you from your perch there or is it ormpletely different tu found most challenging? a lot ofrlap again, i deal with the egos first because you always deal with that in a white house, right? because you're right, yo and i'll give a specific example and name names. i don't mind doing could. and john boehner was a very bright man. there's no question on the smarts i've ever met was never really able to convince him that

he wasn't the president. and i'll give you a we were in osaka, japan, and for a variety of reasons we up going at the last minute to the z. against that decision demilitarized zone between the dmz to north south korea on 6 hours notice decision and was was was vehement ast various ree thought this is a bad decision that the president said t john . john went to mongolia instead. you can't do that. right. and that's what that's that's when you knew it was time for john to go, because john was you know, if you're a member of this team, you have to there's only room for one ego in that room. and it's the has to be enough for you to you're in the oval office having your peace, and you'rein and if the president agrees with you, yay for you. wi you, you're not the'ag

president. and managing that was real. and i rememberad some other folt fell in the same category, but john was one who jumped out at me. mygethough, i went through varis phases, the biggest challenge at the begnierybody from killing themselves or killing each other. it wast really tough place to w. john kelly had not been to work last two or three months of the job. the door was closed all the time. everybody wat him in the west . and it was one of things i was i was i was set out to change and so we had a you know, i spent most of my day. i would ihe president noon. and i spent most of my day ing around the west wing trying to build a team because they were not a team that time. and once we got able to do that, i felt like we were really good place until the first impeachment. but for a while there it was. it did work,because of where i s in the cycle. i wasn't at the very

real. we were the sort of there. i got there right a specific gof fixing the place. and that the hardest thing to do, was to try and change the culture from sort of a bruta toy anitked.ing as a team. after that, then the challenge became fairly simple, which is how do you balance the because trump liked trump like all people,t clinton was the same. i think obama was the exact opposite. i'm case. trump loved to have big groups in t oanhave a debate on a topi. so we had i used to joke that we would sell tickets tdiscussion'e people over here on this side of the argue with you on thiseuld would send the ship back as the arbitrator, as the judge, and tc an hour and a half. and sometimes there'd be 20 people in th yelling at each other, which was great. it's what he wanted. mye was balance in the room so thatstaunch protectionist, i haa

free trader, and that those people were relatively evenly matched intellectually in terms of ego and so forth, so that you had a good debate. president had the bestthe information in front of him from all sides so that he could make the st■h. that's an interesting policy issue for you to illustrate that for, because i've never had the impression that president trump was remotely moved by on that particular issue, an opposite side of his own views onabsorbie entertaining? well, look at the practical applications of it. we would itd his mind on australian tariffs on steel and het of a debate. and when i mean debate i mean i thought gary cohn wasob lighthi. can you describe the way you saw that occurring? i mean, it was like what was happening that moment. it might have been the time that no, cohn never grabbed him around the throat. but no, i mean, youtell these ae are grown men and women and they

are not shy. intellects. inppointed me about when i left is i tell people when we when we staed interior was a circle. the senior advisers to the president inclceo of exxonmobilr president of goldman to about their politics. okay at the end this the inner circle included the guy who sells pillows at news. i worked really hard to prt hap. and then after i left, think it gain for one quick piece on what makes and we talked about egos. you covered the congress. you also have big egos in the senate and the house is huge stakeholder. you can't get legislation through unless you have good rapport on the hill. i used to have a $1 bet with the president wh s himself.

the two chairs there in the oval office. you picture a million times with the fireplace behind . and i would would the wager was would the senator sit down in the chairopen chair before the president offered it n one nine out of ten beds. and that's a's your job. we think of you as interfacing with the president. of course, that'so do this day. stakeholders in the cabinet members and the m to almost any president's agenda. so that's that's an interesting point. i would like to look into some more to just first of all, i always you to be asked for the part of my job that keep the crazies ouof the but the egos ae talk can't do that when there's a trade advisor. yeah. well i■ could have put aotthe ce beyond anything i'll do.

respect meenators and stake. and believe me. and they really president's fut. its them. so i came up with a brilliant idea that we should a plan as a prototype to get a reorganization of thfel■ becaust agree, but it really doesn't reand so i worked for a long tie with jeff science. yeah they quietly came up with this great plan and we had a prototype. our busissdepartment, small bust it in a plan and the democrats ulaway from president reagan. the ability to reorganize by by taking that power away from. and he used to be able to put to congress a plan here's a reorganization plan for the wholep or down. no amendments, up or down. xf plan. so the president doesn't have it in a s in the press and old thing we had a

balls was great lled up harry reid calls 5 minutes later hey going anywhere was the majority leader at the time majority leader democrat in the in the senate and they were in control. don't waste our time bring that up here. i'm like, oh, how about we just have ae everybody knows this thing working real well and we got toah, blah, and max baucus was the me, what is this? x, all we want is a hearing. okay? just no blinking. we the end. it was a great event. probably got a tape at home it. but that's as far as that's your own and that's your own party. i mean,idea, but it was the cons said don't even bother. and we couldn't preview it with them because they would have justhut down before we even get it. but probablyject agnostic, i think we talked about you've all kind of mentioned you have toett

to be able to tell the president something difficult difficult message ■4 that that the messed up or something thatouldo down the line with as much recall. what what had i'm not talking at we'll get to the b one i'm talking about something where you just knew he's not going to want to hear this or he real screwed that up and he has no idea. and i've got to have to tell him.ou when you have to deliver something that they don't want to you have to tell them you don't want to hear this, but i'm going to tell it to you and you have you're doing it. and it could be a thousand different things. it could be policy. it could be reacting t what is happening in congress, could be something reacting to what's going i nations. but you have to have the courage

to say, as mack mclarty would say, ufos, unforeseen occurrences for sure, or unknown intended consequences and those are sometimes very difficult to bring in to the office■■ becaus. you should be feeling a little guilty if there was an unintended consequence because you should have had somebody on yo team that expected that consequence. and so when it doesn't happen, does that mean heads will roll? no, it means people will be nted. you have to do work. you have to go up on capitol hill, solve a problem. t a meal of crow. i can't you how many meals of crow i on the hill or in office? do you acknowledge that you didn't do the job as well as you is happening. it had happened. do youwould also i'm curious and i would ask all of■i obama, didt

more upset by you pointing out something he had done wrong or just bringing gardened bad newsc image was very cool. he did not f in in based upon news was al steady. and i think in addition to the oftentimes you have to come and tell them something about a person in t go in cabinet, in the administration who'do action on. that's awardes they're good friends of the president. it was pretty have no memory of him b top. not lright. and i don't know president trump, but from what i read, he he sometimes as well as top.

so that's all i know. he is nothing like president clinton. if you he it was quite a■@cene when you want to get to the door quickly. when did you want to run for the often. but because i knew him well, only when it wasexactly. but, but, with him when he was governor. so it was it was a different, rp in my case. we talked about the famia7&rity and the trust and respect the president clintassly was not is, very smart, intuitivea military with me when i came into the office there one on one. okay. go ahead and give me the bad mean, he could just see body. he knew me well enough. that's probably what i was there. maybe, maybe not the subject, but probably the tone or substance of the news. secondly, he he did he would

kind of like a summer thunderstorm. he would have a little a little temper moment there and then it would kind of come back down a little b lighter. and, you know, i would again, it because of the relations ship and he he knew, you know, i was trying to get get things done in the right way, even doing my best. not always leading. but when he would kind of have that. and in people who can't leave i would say, well, are you ■f■rnished? and you know, and he would he would accept that. i mean, he was a yes, i am. ■$ so that's kind of the way i it. i think the moment i remem not necessarily real bad news, but president clinton cominglinr to the it. that was a real attandy in the h running one, clinton did not run on time. and i just get so frustrated with that. so finally, when they make i

went in there in thefterno, dois mr. president was a brilliant speech this mornin well organiz. it was just so tight. see how yd can work in that order. the mann and be sodisorganized. personally, i just don't understand and he looked over his half glasses. i said, well, actually i made you mad. and he said, oh, no, no, no, you just hurt my feelings. so, you know, that was the point i was trying to make. he got a little better and he did get better. the eight years. he did get better eight years and neededever see president trp lose his temper? no, i never saw. in fact, i've commented a couple of times that i read all these stories about throwing fo a lotd that was not the president. i saw wheert after i left that i can't speak to. i never saw that i can count on one hand the number of times i actually went in, closed thekt■ doors. president we we have a problem. we we can't do

because i knew i knew that wouldn't react positively to that if told the president, you can't do this, he'd push back and say, yes, we can. i understood his personality. i assumed the dynamic. i had to do it a couple of times because you have a choice. and since i did it so infrequently when i did it, i closed the doors. and you talk to you. he knew it was serious and he took it very seriously. but i did. i there was several dozen times had to convince him not to do and i knew how to do that, which is okay, we have to say, this is a. this person, you'd hao have to be a friend of his, a family member, somebody on tv and three members of congress. okay. i can't i can't tell you the number of times i calledç hannity and said, look, you know, this is what we're talking about. do that'■s a terrible idea. well, if if you can say that on the show tonight, then that will helpelve to learn how to talk to people in the language they

de to one of the one of the beauties, one of the keys to success at everything is getting people to think that everything is their own idea. okay. and that's what we did. that's what you had to do with ll him, you can't do this. he look at you go, are you the president? and the answer to that question, okay.urse,s, no, now, a couple of times you have to go inside. you have a choice. but over t a day or two, if our policy is x, we thinyou sort of we we treat it e the ocean crashing t the wavese same tone a couple of times, f a sudden it's his idea. and now we've changed. we're off on the right so you have to learn how to do that. that's not by the way, that's just good advice in life generally mean ikids go over, 't do this. okay, that's great idea. so since this building of sorts i'm sorry, it's kind of a sorts. you just have to understand how people communicate, what language listen to, and how they react. there are certain people, especially presidents, have egos. you don't run for president if

you don't if you don't have a big ego. and if you try and go head to head with that too many tim, you're going to first of all, you end up out of a job and not very effective, but, you ow, more importantly, you won't get the right decisions. so we're going to go to q&a ia you can start lining up. remember that we give priority are students. this is a litning fast, but i'o miss this question. there's an iconic photo that was ed in this event, and it's not only that we used it to advertise this event. i think you were shongthis this photo of you delivering the news to presen that the united states had been attacked, that the world trade center had been hit by an airplanwhwas hav. in a school. in a school, an elementary school. it's an iconic image for a reason because it's it's , one of the worst moments in modern history. and obviously thatat you're in t was that the worst day job? and if not, what■# was do you remember when george bush threw minister? japanese

that was not a good day. that was a bad day. i was chf oftaffthat trip to. that was bad day. ■n. bill daley the best day of flip it. the best day wasdqhe i'll stick with the negative. when we were observing the osama bin laden raid and when the helicopter began to go twirl and had to abort bob gatesad said, whatever the military we couldn't do this raid. and it's all been here when thy carter was going to do the tehran rescue and murphy's law, if it can go over i going to go on i saw that helicopter being that's where i thought oh shoot heroes but then a flip the total opposite than

enormous success in the world thecity bombing in the white ho. that's when i changed. and it just was socomplete, an e happening. the esidurse, really engaged on that with a replic ma, frank keating, who really help heal the heal the state, the city of oklahoma city, the state of ho i think it was a surge of sh moment where moment for the but it turned in country. i think the best day wawh saw tg better and you had a really make substantial progress on the national deficit, eventually led to a balanced budget on a bipartisan basis. and jennifer, i think the best likely for all of us is when you meetally on the

campaign trail or an event where r policy and you have helped change someone's life like welfare to work, and they tell you their story about a single mother and the impact it's had that that's really why youo pub. and if you get the last word, we're we're standing than i sayo remember we were blessed we didn't have any of those great tragedies because we had too many shootings and so forth, but nothing stands out, obviously, like 911 or or the oing, i don'y particularly great days as i sit up here. sinking feeling one time that things are getting reto very quickly, but it turned out fine. so i can talk about it, which is th w dmz, we only had about 2 minutes to brief the president on what he was sposed d on video, do it sometime. it's fine. he was supposed go to jong u.n.p over the border, shake hands, korea, across the border, the borders of wall about that talk to have the meetings and he walked the

wrong way and i'm sitting in president walk into north korea. and i i turn to the head of the secret service. what i said, what do we do now? and he goewe don't do anything. i said, well, he goes, well, i forgot to tell you, but the deal we cut with the north koreans north korea, the interpreter, theent. if we send anybody else, we're invading north walked over and d starts gesticulating at the north korean building. and then he comes back and they walk in in the south korean building to have the meetings. and i didn't get a chance, but 2 hours afterwards to talk to him, i saidwhat what was that all ab? goes, did you see that building? did you see thabuilng? that was the ugliest building i walk. i said, look, kim, we got to go look at this building. look at this building. you greatest piece of real estate in the world. you've got coast on both sides. you've got china up here. you've got south down here. you could be doing resorts, golf cours,with a building like that. no that's out. that is a fabulous building.

let's go have a meeting. and he walked back over h meet. so you have a career. you have a career that that was it almost your worst ay over here again. student that played by yourse nr and make sure that your question ends in a mark. thank lowry in the business school graduating this june.ank you all for being here. so given all the talentedth bigs that you worked with over your time in pit i'm curious who you think was the best american leadernever even ran for presidt should have? and why do you think they should have won? oh, wow. that's a great■u question. that's a great, tough question. yeah, it really is. anyone want to take that. why don't we put a pin in that? boy, you may have some toguys.

a lot of goes to make sure we don't brands that lost and should have n u■; know why don't we go to the next question, put a pin that if it occurs to anybody. well we'll surface back. go ahead. all right. my name is young. i'm a graduate student in sociology. so you talk about managing ego ats on the confident side. but what about the other side, which is insecurity? i read a memo by henry kissinger. he did a lot managing insecuribu nixon. and i wonder if chief of staff is in a betterion to manage insecurity, whether it's just a division of lab or not. so you are the confidant of the president. i think you have to convey a obviously a positive attitude and be very supportive of the president because it's very easy in his job, in this job, to be n

though it'■■pand challenge. but again, there's so much ba ce because if it's goodsolve, somes insolvent. take credit for it. so there is bit of you've got to make sure that and and i think as rick said, move on with the staff, especially the young people. they read the press, they the press, they get down that mood can be very infectious white house and negativity. so you've got to try to boost ve with the president oneondiffere. but all of us privilege to greet the president when they come to work. and i used teethaé@president opd say, it's a great day. i'm glad tthif it was a really , why? because you don't want a pessimist as a president. you don't want to have a leader that says follow me anthse and't

want a leader working in governt that their well, you want to lift them up. so i, i think it's an important job for the chief of staff to n rather despair. well, thank you. next questpeople who want to bee president up. yeah, i do think, jennifer, the the question does i think raise the right point that, you know, on west wing, the series th■k s any years, it did capture the white house prtyl,xcne of us had script. we had to kind of do it in real ti have it certainly notice coming from business, yoe good moments and the real challenges and lows and you have to try tell people it's lie

they said, what's what's the job ? it's like any other job. but you have really good days, really bad days. and so the difference is the an the ordinary good day and the bad days are that much l se. hi. thank you. thank so mh third year in the college. i'm curious, have you ever serving the action, serving the president as a person differed from serving the interests of the american people? and if so, how did you navigate question. i mean, i get asked a because of the reputation that trump has never asked anything l. certainly never asked anything to be illegal. i'd never faced■hose challenges. we i talked to students here putting a plug in for my seminar, 330 ondays. no, never, never put us in a position like like that. but you did resign on january six. but you areat's right. i mean, i was i wasn't chief of staff at the time. so you're absolutely right. i mean that. but that that's a there's a longer

day. keep in mind, he was he's our boss, right? whether or not thinkhe was something illegal and criminal on january six, whether or not you think ther's something impeachable, that's not this is not the place to have a debate. he failedd not meet my expectations as the man who was that's the case, you n't u can't make it better. you have a choice which is either stay and have people assume you appve order. make it clear that you didn't. that's a different thth daily b. you know, let's go do this. you know, let's do this. let's do this immoral thing. no, no, never, never, never saw any ofha i don't know, you guys. i doubt you did. so i think all three questions have been excellent so far. i think i think it's th disagred lose a discussion but i think not to at all sound selfish, self-righteous o■$hi of us frany certainly speaking for myself,

had youthink you'd be compelled to resign. i think president clinton knew that about me. i never even came close to him. yeah. yeah, but yout question. i'm struggling with. well, i don't know if it's a good answer, but i'm thinking who who is somebody lifetime that didn't become ent that could have no of history was bobby. that now obviously he ran and it butn changing that lifetime with somebody didn't get the chance to get the job i would have had. he lovedn opinion. i'd throw. colin powell was someoneeat rese vision from inside the

government and hadreceiving endl decisions and then was secretary of comments around the world in india, i was thinking exactlye. i'm a first year in the college and i'm curious, like, how religious often impacted your relationship with president and from yin perspective, how did religion actually influence the president's maki? great question. i'd be glad to answer that. full disclosure, my wife is a methodist i come from strong faith. i cannot imagine doing the jobs that we did or that the president does without prci som■ faith, because the burdens aregrandecisions hat consequences that i do think t the comfort of having solicited counsel beyond that which would come from a

person in theso the president id president reagan, george h.w. bush andeorge faith. they did a great george w bush probably the most disciplined at doing it. there's a document talee every d the president's daily brief and the top secret. everybody in washington wants to see it. it's a need to see, not to want to see. and we had the need to see it. the president had the need to see it. and i don't know what it was like for you guys, butny on the president's desk, i would see before it went on the president's desk up. an i that document and then i would greet the presidehe impressed that document was there. the fancyey cover on it. everybody wants to see it. the president would come in, sit down resolute desk, open a drawer, take out a devotional read from it, take out another devotional, read from it, take out the

bible, read something from it, close the drawer. i believe he prayed, and then he would pick up the pdb and read it. think plays a big role. and in making tough decisions, trump is very different and somewhat the same. probably one of the least religious people 'ver t in my entire life, but was fascinated by faith and somehow na surround himself with a with a west wing of mostly vo■= daily communicant roman catholics, including myself. t of them. and he was fascinated by people of faith faith all the time. they used to invite me and larry kudlow,■j who a jewish convert o catholicism, to come in and sit on one side of the roo and pat e these are all o would go to daily mass and he would talk to us about why we disagree on the death penalty and how is it that some roman are against the death penalty

and some who go to church just as much penalty? i was fascinated by it. helso allowed us for the first time in history to have mass on the campus for the first time and the only time in history. started doing that, they started having jewish services and muslim services on white house for the first time ever, from a least religious person ever. crm for not knowing what second corinthians is. and still he was encouraging to people of faith, which i found very productive it obama very private of you who know him about his religion, he he went he a strong believer in■$usaith. and it was, in my opinion, a big through life and decision not out puttit

out on his sleeve in any way, shape or for president clinton. and at hillary clinton, we were not and i re m wife and don and i were very well aware that hillary had been so active in ¢?1the first methodist church in little rock president, been very active emmanuel baptist church in little rock. so we were very familiar wit thr depth of their f think, did a nice job of kindpickoint. we would have at four times a year, usually at the beginning of each season, a very broad gathering, not a presidential prayer breakfast, a sm gathering but of all faiths and so forth. and it was just it anderful fees a way to send that right message staff of theway. white house. anrspective that was needed.

well, try to get to a few more. go ahead, please. my name is artur. i'm a first year in the. i'm chief of staff mulvaney recently, like just now, you talked about how you resigned rview after that resignation, you said that donald trumpn eight months prio. in that vein, i'm curious to hear how you feel he changed ank your president's changed in terms of like personality or energy over your time on the job? i just i think he got tired of having peo■@plll him what he didn't want to hear and he started to who were honest with him and had an idea, it wasople who who always, yes, it was president. i think tha's >du%grea january six almost, because i think it's the best idea ever. and i don't k the other side because i think the presidents are ultimately responsible for theirey just are. but i think he was getting really, really bad advice. keep in mind single most ,e persn

the world. maybe the pope. i'm not sure. but you rely so heavily on your staff because you're no longer a normal human being. and yodot yo don't interact with the real world. and you have to have staff that will be open andest with you and be your conduit to the outside world. and if they fail in that then you are at risk of making tremendous poor decisions. so whether orfault, staff's fauy it's his fault he's responsible at the end of the day for everything. but i do blame the staff for a lot of the breakdowns of the second half of the in the last days of the trump administratihat obviously people get to the presidency, have long trips with lots of people, and they on people for and i remembh president him, he was constantly outside of they with for their advice. great point. and president obama did the

same. but those people who suddenly as opposed to us who dealt with the president every day, they get a call for thedent to ask their opinion on something. as i mentioned earlier, it's very hard to get people to really be honest w the

white house puts the call through everybodyind in a melt'g to the president, not bill

clinton,ho yw for 30 years, except the guy like mac inso the the the the the jgmen'e engaged with over the years is in my opinion because because they don't give nest opinion they may have given when the person was a yeah, i'm reminded we were on the elevator there and stuart took us up to the wrong floor and it total a a huge room. first lady was having a reception president of everybody kind of gravity mr. president, cha cha cha. there are a lot of people here and president clinton didn't to be one. and it is it is a bubble. it is a bubble in isolation, i think, in terms of president in the six and a half years i was in thepresidents, you know, como come to the sure.

great talent, great drive. haveo learn and change on the■,wf gr'e going to be a successful that. grow.o it as students and so i watched that with president clinton and he had thatity to you. and i think it served him w ñ i'm a freshman in the college. my question is about impeachment. two of you were chief of staff to presidents ring their impeachment. and i'm curious about what the kindday to day■ operation ads were like during those times and from other parts of the presidency. well, i'll def t was at the whi. he was in there. the impeachment. so it broke the west wing. d that it is now going to be used regular

basis because the opposition party has figured out trate a president's agenda, you can take up a lot of time and a lot of energy by doing an impeachment. and it certainly broke us to this day believe that our response to covid was negatively impacted by the fact that we were completely worn out and beaten up bypeachment. two things, by the way, coincidedss conference, the first press conference on vote on the senate impeachment took place. t, nobody came to the presser on covid because they were all covering the d my fear is that now my party will do it t it will become an ordinary tool. it was extranarily l remember one time, this is not an impeachme report. i had had an idea of something i wanted to do over the cfp that was consistent with the president's agenda. and i went over to talk to the thente house counsel.

i said, look, i don't think i can do this on my own, but if you guys back me, i think we can do this. i think it's entire in line with do looks figures make i am up to here with mueller. i don't have time for thi't do . it is amesink. i it's just it will drain a white house and cant apart. and i think that happened to us. i don't know what it was like in in the clinton white house, but my guess is it's a very stressful, intense type of time, even when you know what the result is going to be. and we knew what the result was in was no way that the senate was going to kick donald trump out of office. it so but even with that knowledge, it was still very, lt. you can ask a question in 30 seconds and i can get these guys n have them. all right. thank you very much. so my question is, how does the role during season, if at all? well, i wasn't there.

i before the but especially thet mi year and nothing and i think you'll see this yeawi president biden it is akin to me when 'travels and they're usually out on average three or four days a week. now. in those eight states that matter. it dominates everything. my opinion. i think the biggest change is not around elections. it'th there is social media. now, that is, you beckwith's instantaneou and people get stuck on stupid really fast. and so that's the biggest change in terms of the con othfunctione now a they use nouns and verbs, 20 seconds make you want to say i was there i left in march of we had we we had just started

the reelect campaign. we had data of 2020 when we believe that the democrat nominee was going to be