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♪ host: this is the washington journal for may 28. democrats are seeking a meeting with john roberts over flags flown but only at his home

but a vacation home in new jersey. they stress concern over the appearance of impropriety. some republicans offered some rebuke but many said the flying of the flag does not impact the ability for him to do his job. what are your thoughts on the flag story concerning justice alito? (202) 748-8000 for democrats. (202) 748-8001 for republicans. (202) 748-8002 for independents. if you want to comment on this flag story concerning justice alito and send attacks, --send a text, (202) 748-8003. and on facebook and x. the new york times was the catalyst starting off the series of stories, taking a look at

flags flown at the justice's various homes. it started with a story concerning a home flying and adverted flag in alexandria, virginia. it was a loft on january 17, 2021. it shows donald trump supporters writing at the capital -- rioting at the capitol three days away. -- and president biden's inauguration three days away. they said in interviews in the coming weeks the justice talked about the impact, saying they will rule on two climatic -- concerning january 6. that was followed up by another story. a look at a flag that was flown at his vacation home. here's the headline.

another productive flag was flown at another alito home. last summer, two years ago after an upside down american flag was flown outside the virginia home of justice samuel alito junior, another provocative signal was at his vacation house. it was the appeal to heaven flag, which like the inverted u.s. flag was carried by rioters on generally six. it's also the pine tree flag. his dates back to the revolutionary war. it is now with symbol for support for president trump for the stop the steal campaign and the push to remake american government in christian terms. that was from the new york times following up with the stories. that prompted a letter sent by senate democrats looking for a conversation on the issue to chief justice john roberts. part of the letter reads, "by displaying or permitting the

display prominent symbols of the stop the steal campaign outside his homes, justice alito created an apparent impropriety in violation of the code of conduct for justices of the supreme court of the united states that all nine justices adopted last year. he created reasonable doubt as to his impartiality in certain proceedings, therefore requiring his disqualification in those proceedings. " you can comment on one of three lines this morning. what you think of it. it is (202) 748-8000 for democrats. (202) 748-8001 for republicans. (202) 748-8002 for independents. if you want to text us, you could do so at (202) 748-8003. social media sites available to u.s. well at facebook and on x.

it was also late last week that the senate judiciary chair, representative dick durbin discussed the flags concerning justice alito and the concerns of some democrats on capitol hill. here is part of that interview. [video] >> three courses under the constitution are limited. the first flag flying the american flag upside down as a distress signal. he dismissed it as a momentary emotional lapse of his wife making that decision. now we have the second flag, which is some symbolism on the radical right being flown at his vacation residence. is this just a chance indiscretion or conscious declaration of his maga loyalty? our courts and justices don't have an army to enforce their opinions. they don't have the money to establish an account for media

control. they have the respect for integrity. this raises a serious questions of the highest court of the land. host: that is senate judiciary chair dick durbin on the topic of a story by the washington post concerning flags, their decision on the reporting of it. this is from the wife of supreme court justice alito. it indicated it was raised in response to a neighborhood dispute. a report he went to the couple's home to follow up on the flag it was no longer flying. adding the post decided not to report on the episode at the time because the flag raising

appear to be the work of mrs. alito in a dispute with her neighbors. it was not clear the argument was about politics according to the spokeswoman. the upside down flag has long been a sign of distress for the military and protest by various political factions in the weeks before and after the january 6 attack it was adopted by supporters of the stop the steal movement which embraced president trump's false claims that joe biden stole the election from him. taking look at the same issue and reporting of it. you can comment on the reporting or the event itself and the relevance you think or are concerned about. (202) 748-8000 for democrats. (202) 748-8001 for republicans. independents, (202) 748-8002. alyssa and hyattsville, maryland -- in hyattsville, maryland.

democrats line. caller: justice alito and clarence thomas should recuse themselves from anything that involves donald trump. whatever happened to justice is supposed to be blind? i know it does not often happen for american blacks. it's a two-tiered system. we have the laws that apply to other people but then you have certain people and they don't the laws -- the same laws to apply. these christian nationalists, that hold of the bible in one hand and admitted conviction e -- convicted sexual predator who lies -- host: what is this about the fight that impacts the justice's ability? caller: they are not impartial.

they are out and out giving -- they are stating w

supreme court justices should be held to a different standard. this is not just my uncle or cousin flying the flag. it ties back into what's going on with clarence thomas and his wife and their involvement in efforts to stop the steal and stuff like that. it's concerning.

i wonder if the shoe was on the other foot on how the outreach would be from conservatives and right-wing people. host: is it a concern over perception or the reality of flying the flag and the impact on his ability to do his job? caller: i think perception often is like -- it is related to the truth. we are seeing a lot of politicization in the court. whether alito is agreeing with these flags were not, the people perceive the court as becoming political. these flags are concerning to people. people held -- they would not be

worried about someone flying a flag. they might just say i trust alito. you are a supreme court justice. you know there will be a lot of media attention and speculation about your houses and what kind of flag there flying. they are flying the american flag upside down. if i did that -- i'm a young guy. what happens about calling cap her neck -- find the flag upside down, to me is the dictionary image of unpatriotic. host: there was a recent oped five mark c -- by

host: kevin in massachusetts, independent line. caller: flying the flag upside down has been a sign of distress for a long time, and i listen to a lot of radio, c-span, fox, cnn, cnbc, and i've never heard of dr. steele. it's ridiculous. just because they are a supreme court justice doesn't mean that they do not have the right to free speech. glad you brought up ruth bader

ginsburg. where were they when she was out telling people how she thought about roe v. wade? host: regardless of justice ginsburg or justice alito, what do you think about this idea of a higher standard especially if you sit on the court? caller: i think the worst that he would be doing was flying the flag upside down would be a misdemeanor that they don't even charge anybody with. you are not supposed to use the flag in an advertisement, but you could open the paper today and see that there are advertisements with flag in it. it's not a big deal. host: kevin in massachusetts. again, you are invited to call in and give your thoughts. democratic leader hakeem jeffries talking about the issue, talking about the actions you'd like to see from the supreme court. here he is from last week. >> can i get your reaction to

samuel alito having flown various flags of a conservative nature outside his residence here? is that appropriate for a supreme court justice? >> wholly inappropriate. samuel alito and clarence thomas are totally out of control. these individuals continue to detonate the credibility of the united states supreme court. in the case of samuel alito, he definitively needs to recuse himself from any matter pending before the united states supreme court that has to do with the january 6 violent insurrection. he should have no part in it. another problem that we confront is that the supreme court has chosen to conduct itself as if

the judiciary is above the law. in america, no one is above the law. that includes the supreme court, that includes samuel alito and that includes clarence thomas. if the supreme court does not get its act under control, you can be confident that democrats in the house of representatives partnering with democrats in the united states senate will enact the first opportunity we have to engage in thorough oversight and the consideration of imposing an ethical code of conduct on supreme court justices. host: that house minority leader from last week talking about the

issue. one of those flags which in several times, a bit of an explainer from the washington examiner saint it was one of the primary flags used by patriot forces during the revolutionary war, designed by george washington, secretary read in 1775. it features a pine tree along with the words and appeal to have displayed above. in has deep symbolism as a symbol of new england dating back more than 100 years prior to the revolution, already representing the lucrative shipbuilding industry. it took on new importance in 1772 in new hampshire marking one of the first major colonial acts of resistance against the british empire. that was one of the flags flown at the vacation home reportedly in new jersey. one of two of recent days causing these reactions from capitol hill and other places. getting your reaction this morning.

patrice in south carolina, republican line. caller: thank you for taking my call this morning. i have been called in months because i get so frustrated looking at c-span and all the propaganda channels. but i want to remind everyone each and every time i call in that the news remains weaponized against the people. let me just say this about the flag situation. you've got trump with 91 indictments. the judge with the hush trial, his daughter has a conflict against it because she is expecting money from the biden campaign, and you have her father also with conflict with biden. nothing on c-span, nothing on any other liberal news channel but today, talking about the flag.

host: since you called in regarding -- caller: i think it is fine. america is turned upside down right now with the two-tiered justice system going on with donald trump and you all are going to talk about these flags? they have a right to a freedom of speech. but let's get back to the judge -- host: the topic at hand, you said it was fine. elaborate on that, why is it fine? caller: because everybody has a right to freedom of speech. everybody has a right to their freedom of speech, but let's get back to what you think about -- host: mark is next in north carolina, democrats line, hello. caller: yes. my name is mark. my opinion is simply this. the issue is very clear.

a justice of the supreme court should not be biased. if you fly a flag that is making a political statement as these two flags are, you are showing bias. you are giving the appearance of bias, and that is the appearance of impropriety. it is not like me or any other ordinary citizen flying a flag or expressing a political view. a supreme court justice has an obligation to remain impartial and to demonstrate impartiality by refraining from making political statements. justice alito made political statements by flying these flags. he has to know that.

the problem is that with the supreme court, they've taken a voluntary code of conduct, but not an enforceable code of conduct. so therefore if alito as i believe most federal jurists would agree, is acting improperly by flying these flags -- host: why does that necessarily disqualify him from doing his job? caller: it disqualifies him to do his job because he has taken a position, a political statement with regard to the insurrection, with regard to the first flag and with regard to the second that is in conflict with his sitting on a case involving the insurrection or involving donald trump. particularly the immunity decision that is before the

court currently, the insurrection decision that is before the court currently, and previously, the situation with regard to --. but the supreme court has done with justice alito is it has put a delay by virtue of its taking the immunity decision from the court of appeal and the d.c. circuit. it has put a delay on the trial of the insurrection case brought against donald trump in a criminal context. and because that's true, it has deprived the american people every day that goes by, it is depriving the american people of their right to a speedy trial in

that case. host: judith is next in florida, independent line. caller: good morning. my name is gia. i just want to say that i'm a united states veteran of our armed forces. it is absolutely appalling to me what happened on january 6, what is happening with this justice system and with the symbolism that that justice is displaying. it is a slap in the face to the serviceman and women who serve this country. people in this country need to understand that they cannot have it both ways. there are many women who get up every morning to protect your freedoms and secure our country and frankly, some of these highly appointed officials are a threat to national security. host: what does that mean as far

as the justice flying these flags at his home? caller: i think hakim jeffries articulated perfectly as the gentleman from north carolina just now said. those justices and those citizens are appointed to be in an unbiased position. so when you fly a flag upside down like that, it has symbolism. it provokes people, and you are no longer unbiased when you fly a flag in that way. not to mention the disrespect, the other disrespect that it shows. host: you call it symbolism twice, why is it not just symbolism, then? why does it reflect necessarily a viewpoint from the justice? caller: because that flag flown

upside down represents something. i lost you, i'm sorry. host: you called it symbolism, why is it necessarily reflecting a position from the justice? caller: first of all, there is something called flag etiquette. nowhere does it ever say that it is ok to fly a flag upside down. host: ok, carl is next from the line for democrats, florida. caller: this hypocrisy, i don't know how c-span can get around it. these republicans can call on any line now and make out rages comments. this nation responded to colin kaepernick who took a knee at a

football game, and the highest court in the land is making decisions that will impact us for generations. we are probably going to lose to trump and his ilk and this country will be truly in a terrible state. host: you called the actions horrible, why is that specifically? caller: it's empowering racism in this country which has never gone away. he has shown that he has appealed to the worst in this country. if they kick him out right now and tell him that he is wrong, they are disingenuous people. alito is a more symptomatic because of it. syndicalism -- symbolism is everything.

why do you have to get rid of women's rights? those are symbolic things. now we've been taken back. host: republican line, j inflow or do, hello. caller: good morning. i've never heard such a bunch of hypocrisy in my life. you had hakeem jeffries get on there and start spewing what he was spewing. first of all, that five is fluent alito's house since january 6. should that make a difference to you, the fact that somebody has flown this particular flag before this? you are saying this is symbolizing something because we say it is. that flag has been flown by thousands and thousands of people over 100 years or more, for various reasons. in the upside down, there is etiquette for that. the etiquette for that is if you are in distress. if you are in distress that is when you fly it upside down so

that somebody comes to help you. and if he felt under stress or that she was feeling threatened by people putting out trump signs in their yard facing her house, which is pretty nasty to begin with, which is a typical democrat move, i don't see anything wrong with that. but let's get to the main point. the main point, as you said, is political. they are supposed to be nonbiased. host: i don't think i'm able to comment at all, i think others have said that, but go ahead. caller: when they say that, do they not watch these appointments from congress? when a republican appoints somebody to the supreme court, the democrats go after them. when a democrat appoints, the republicans go after them. this is political from the minute that they are chosen by a party. they are not chosen by two

parties, they are chosen by one party. that makes the entire thing political. you don't think that when you call them a liberal judge or a conservative judge that you are not implying that it is political? the entire system is political. so when you say that they are supposed to be biased, that is insanity. host: just to clarify, the way they are chosen is automatically political. the justices themselves decide they have impartiality which some have asked earns over the raising of these flags. what do you think of that? caller: where is the impartiality when they are chosen by a particular party? how is that impartial? how is that person supposed to be completely impartial when they are chosen by a political party for the purpose that they will honor that party? you are sitting here trying to say that it is all political and

they are supposed to all be unbiased, when you know that the entire process is biased? host: that is jay in florida. you can continue on the lines if you wish. (202) 748-8000 for democrats. (202) 748-8001 for republicans. independents (202) 748-8002. the senate minority leader mitch mcconnell was asked about the situation from last week. here is part of his response. >> justice alito, the upside down american flag was flown outside of his home similar to what was used on january 6. should he recuse himself from those cases? >> it seems to me it is nonstop attacks on the supreme court. week after week after week. so i'm not going to dignify that with a response.

we need to leave the supreme court alone, protect them from people who went into their neighborhoods and tried to do them harm. host: north carolina, independent line. caller: good morning. i just want to make a comment. it seems like every time we have an issue about something, someone takes a flag and it is a very important part of racial bias or unfair. and i just can't understand why someone would want to argue about such a minuscule thing as a flag. this flag or the betsy ross flag. those are flags that men fought and died for. people of this generation today did not fight and die for that

flag. thank you. host: from john in virginia. democrats line. caller: it amazes me how people call in and they love the flag when donald trump is holding and kissing the flag. they have the flag on their jackets which it should not be on apparel. he did not burn the flag. all he did was neil. -- kneel. host: as far as justice alito raising the flag, what you think of that? caller:, 22 year retired army disabled veteran. is despicable for someone in that position. if a regular citizen is doing it, fine. it's not fine but this guy is on the supreme court. that is why they need term limits for things like this, in my opinion.

my fellow veteran in florida, i support what she said. to the man in north carolina, he said the supreme court is out of control. to the young man from florida that said the flag is so minuscule, people have died over that flag. people put their lives on the line. yesterday we celebrated memorial day. a flag draped over a casket with the flat upside down. -- flap side down. host: kelly from north carolina, republican line. caller: ok. this is all insane. once again the media and you i'm afraid to say this time are saying it wrong. alito did not put the flags that way, or even put them up. it was his wife and she was having a disagreement with her

neighbors. they had terrible signs in their front yards with f trump. now, if she is putting up the flags, how do people -- you don't know. he could have had an argument with her over that when he got home. who says they did not come right down after that? you don't know. would you feel better if maybe he divorced her? really? how many families do you know that have a husband-and-wife that are from different parties? did you ever think about that? host: some questions involve the appropriateness of flying these flags in the first place. what do you think of that? caller: that is up to them. that is free speech. if you can burn a flag, you can sure hang get upside down.

as far as the appeal to heaven, she is speaking probably to god. she did not think about countries and back in the revolutionary war. also, the supreme court follows the laws. they don't use their opinions whether they are democrats or republicans. they don't use their own opinions. that is why they are there. they are there to follow with the law books say. they surely are not supposed to go by the american people's feelings. that is what the other side thinks, the democrats think they are supposed to do with the people want. no. they go by the law and the law only. i hope people will quit listening to the media because they lied to you every single day. every single day it is nothing

but propaganda to get you riled up, because guess what? for all trump has a case up there. host: he's publicly warned republicans are undermining democratic norms and threatening institutions but reluctant to extend the argument to the judicial branch which could be seen as politically motivated. they believe it is crucial to maintain a clear contrast with donald trump who has readily attacked an independent judiciary for political gain. both the central pushback should come from the legislative branch and not the executive branch. that was a former senior official in the biden justice department arguing congress's authority is where we should see aggressive oversight and they are not meeting the moment.

that is an politico if you want to comment on that or this situation over the last week or so regarding the flags flown at various homes of justice alito. (202) 748-8000 free democrats. (202) 748-8001 for republicans. independents, (202) 748-8002. we will hear from dennis in georgia on the independent line. caller: good morning. i think the fellow i listened to earlier from florida was probably -- he got it as far as i can see. that was political activism when she got hired. i don't that you can wag your finger at alito for his wife flying a flag upside down. that represents distress.

she felt the country was distressed. maybe just her neighborhood but she has the right to do that. without media nobody else would have known about it. host: why does it not matter in the sense that she's married to a supreme court justice? caller: i guess you can look at what he's done for the last 30 years. as far as i know, if my wife once the fly the flag upside down. the flag will be upside down. i've only been married 50 years but that is the way they work. women run things. when you pull in the driveway the boss takes over. that is just the way it is. host: that is from georgia. next from charles in tennessee, democrats line. caller: thank you for taking my

call. i guess you can say he can fly the flag anyway he wants to. is it right? this man sits in an influential place of power. it is not like me and you. we don't have that kind of power. it is just a dog whistle to the christian nationalist. that is all this is. he bought the flag. p paid for it -- he paid for it. is it an american thing to do? no, of course it's not. we celebrated yesterday of people giving their lives so we can have freedom. people need to look back at some of the things people have done in history. all the flags in the cemetery.

flying a flag upside down paint american. -- ain't american. i do appreciate your show. you do a good job with it. thank you very much and have a good day. host: sharon in delaware, you are next up. caller: good morning. a couple of things. the outrageousness of all this is unbelievable. everybody is in an uproar because the flag upside down. it is wrong. i agree with that 100%. the whole reason everyone is kicking up dust about this is because of the january 6 trial. number one, folks, it was not an insurrection. trump was not charged with insurrection because there were no charges to do. to the january 6 committee, why would they destroy documents? it all lisa come out in the open.

has nobody seen the tapes showing the guards were waving the people in? host: back to the original thought, you said the event is wrong. why is that? caller: i'm from a veteran family. i have people in my family that our veterans. i completely respect the flag and everything it stands for. i respect the supreme court, unlike our sitting president on the supreme court made a decision over the paying off the student loan debt. he said i will go ahead and find a workaround, which is wrong. he doesn't even respect the supreme court. host: i'm not getting what you think of flying the flag specifically is wrong. caller: it is showing disrespect to the country and to the veterans. and to the military. the whole nine yards. the whole country in my opinion. where was the up or the hamas supporters in new york and these

other big democrat cities are burning the flag? where is the uproar? i don't see it on tv. host: jonathan in dallas on the democrats line. caller: thank you for taking my call, pedro. i think alito flying the flag upside down is appalling. the gentleman from north carolina put it correctly. what i find amazing is a number of people who don't understand. let's assume his wife was indeed protesting a neighbor. the optics of that looks absolutely terrible. as a supreme court justice he should have known better. you look at clarence thomas. his wife went around the country talking about the election being stolen. having a supreme court justice make a decision on a case over

the january insurrection, he should recuse himself from that case. i don't have confidence in the supreme court. there is no accountability at that level. to the point of many people on this call that he should recuse himself, he should not have been flying that flag upside down. host: jonathan in dallas. slate posting this about the events of recent days. rather we have a judicial enterprise that rolls over without anyone willing over it. rather than hurling ourselves into the alito must recuse brick wall, we must discuss the courts.not just alito or thomas and not just gun control which comes out of the same court but the connection between those two tails. a supreme court functionally immune from pressure or internal norms of behavior from, from

disclosure restraints and white is dangerous. this was posted on the 22nd of may if you want to read that on slate's website. ohio is next up, republican line. we will hear from jeff. caller: are you able to hear me ok? host: you are coming through clear. sir, i'm a retiree of the united states air force. united states coast guard and also the department of homeland security. i worked for tom ridge. i hear people talk about things that are wrong with our country this flag issue falls under the same guise. we don't -- it has to be accepted we have an imperfect system.

we always have. we probably always will. we can't expect for things to be perfect or to change something and for them so also -- all of a sudden become perfect. i'm a veteran. i care about our flag. the thing is i don't think -- i think people create issues that are sometimes unnecessary. we should be more relaxed and understanding of each other -- host: when it comes to the flag, what is your take on it/ -- on it? caller: with me personally it is one where he don't ever do anything weird to the flag. you use the etiquette that is involved both in the service branches and in the public at large to ensure the flag is

honored and respected. that is my direct answer. i think we need to be more accepting of each other and what people do. i don't think it really matters that much that someone does something with a flag. i think people have the right to do whatever they want to. we should be more understanding of each other. we should accept the fact we always have an imperfect system. host: harold in maryland on the independent line. caller: my name is harold. i think you are talking to me. ok sir. i think the reason for the flag being flown upside down has meaning. kidneys the nation is in distress -- it means the nation

is in distress. anyone that thinks it is not in distress. to call january 6 and insurrection, it wasn't an insurrection. it was just a group of guys -- a riot that went wrong. you look at the rights we had after the january 6, there is nothing said about that. there was no insurrection. this country is in distress. host: hold on before we go too far. what about the fact that supreme court justice is displaying these type of flags? caller: it's just like mine. if i wanted turned it upside down to get a point across, it has a meaning. the meaning for the flag being upside down is the nation is in distress. host: if that is the case that means the justice in question would be partial when it comes to issues instead of impartial

as a supreme court justice should be? caller: he is human just like you and i. he has his opinion. i have no problem with him displaying his opinion. the supreme court has been butchered by the president and everyone else here in the last six months doing things to them. they are just people like you and i but they have been given a job that nobody can agree with depending on how they roll. you are either right or wrong if you don't believe and how they rule. they set their own standards and that he was good a job as anybody. the problem is that the democrats and republicans over in d.c. need to bring the whipping post back out for the boys and start whipping their asses. host: that was harold in maryland. sheldon whitehouse sits on the judiciary committee and is expressing concerns over the actions. here he is last week. [video] >> it is not enough to be a

supreme court justice flying one maga battle flag at your house. you have to have two houses and fly two maga battle flags, when at each house. it is stunning. it is the kind of thing, as you know, that from anybody else would provoke an investigation. all we get from justice alito are self-serving statements on fox news, which is a forum in which you can lie with impunity, make it up. it is not an official statement subject to sanctions if you did not tell the truth. now he won't answer at all about maga battle flag 2. it really encapsulates all the problems we have had with this rogue supreme court and his refusal to accept -- it's refusal to accept any rule of law.

>> the chairman of your committee says justice alito must recuse himself immediately from cases related to the 2020 election and the january 6 insurrection. he calls on the chief justice to see how this is damaging the court and immediately an act an enforceable code of conduct. recusal used to be something you could reasonably rely on a supreme court justice to use with wisdom. it was rarely used rarely required but used often enough that we could see it as something that worked, but not anymore. >> no. one interesting feature of the requirement is it is a law passed by congress. specifically applicable to supreme court justice's. when they pay no attention to it they are actually filing statutory law.

that -- ignoring statutory law. they might say this is just judicial stuff. you legislators run along here. no. this is the law of the land passed by congress. they are just flouting it. host: republican line. david in texas. caller: can you hear me? host: you are on. caller: i think it's all free speech. i have flown my flag upside down when obama was in office. host: ok. caller: he wanted to change america. host: james in virginia on the democrats line. hello. caller: hi. yeah.

the guy flying the flag upside down, he don't make laws and things for everyone. that's his decision as an individual. that is what thomas's leadership -- not recuse himself from this thing. they should step down a supreme court judges because they are not impartial. host: ok. tim in new castle, delaware. independent line. caller: thank you. i would like to point out that we expect impartiality from justices. unfortunately i think when it comes to samuel alito we have one of the most childish, malevolent justices other than clarence thomas in the history of our republic. the fact that we will try to blame this on martha and alito

--martha alito. in a portrait he commissioned about her there's a bible quote. i find this completely laughable. these people have been the beneficiaries of a number of moneyed interest concerns. alito himself has taken just as much money as thomas did from his benefactors. the fact these people are -- this is supposed to be some sort of homeowners agreement this view is laughable. it is disgusting. this man has written some of the most childish decisions ever handed down by the supreme court. dissents or consents or whatever.. he is a poor excuse for a jurist. the fact that we let him to infect our body politic is and is usable. he has no -- inexcusable.

he has no business sitting at the bar for the rest of his life. host: don from rockville, maryland. caller: good morning. i believe justice alito is definitely in the wrong. if you look at the constitution it says they have -- they are in that position as long as they have "good behavior," which i'm not sure has ever been defined. if we look at the lobby heard about, their recusal that was passed by congress that applies to the system. two recuse themselves -- to recuse themselves. we have innate biases and beliefs but they have an obligation because we pay their salaries. they have a lifelong position so they don't get swayed by bias. they can choose to recuse themselves. if you have the right values, morals and integrity, which is

why we put you on the court, simply recuse yourself. that is all that needs to be done. work on the next case. hello everybody to recuse themselves. it is not that we would have to -- congress has the right to police them. i'm sad the democrats are not doing that right now. i think it is justified in it needs to be done. they need to recuse themselves because it is the right thing to do. host: dawn fending off -- finishing off this hour of calls. 10:30 this morning, i morning, n taking a look at the effectiveness of sanctions on russia with the former national security council official. that will be on c-span, our app

at c-span now. coming up after the break, the conversation with reverend markel hutchins the ceo of the atlanta-based movementforward talking about the importance of police-community engagement and the role of the faith community in that. later we will be joined by the former new york lieutenant governor betsy mccaughey to talk about health care acquired infections. those conversations coming up on washington journal. ♪ >> tune into c-span's live coverage of the 2020 four national political convention starting with the republican's for david in milwaukee on july 15. next, the democrats as they convene in chicago, kicking off

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>> washington journal continues. host: we are joined by the reverend markel hutchins, the lead organizer and ceo of the national weekend and also the president and ceo of an organization known as movementforward to talk about the idea of police and community engagement. when did you get interested? guest: i have been fortunate to have been meant toward by multiple civil rights icon's that worked closely with martin luther king jr.. his wife, john lewis, jesse jackson, andrew young, the list goes on. those folks were my mentors. several years ago when i started to see the nation divided around policing issues and those issues being used as points of division, particularly in the presidential election, i knew we needed to do something different . we started engaging with the law enforcement organizations from a civil rights perspective to cure

the problems, if you will, between law enforcement and community. that's how we got involved. host: what would be on top of the list of divisions? guest: the notion that somehow communities of colors wan -- communities of color want less policing not more, that police are not interested in justice in communities of color. those have been used in the last two to three presidential elections. i think we are a great source of inspiration for us and the police organizations that we partner with to figure out a pathway forward that focuses not on the thing that divides us but the thing that unites us. host: we talk about what fosters those divisions, do you think that his perception, reality, or both? guest: a combination of perception and reality but more perception than reality. most law enforcement professionals in this country go to work and do a good job every day. the number one civil rights issue in america today is crime and violence.

more young people and communities of color, communities of disadvantage, are losing their lives at the hands of community-based violence. it is incumbent upon all of us figure out how we can perfect the leasing and not demonize it. the notion that somehow we can defund our way to a more just and equitable society is fundamentally flawed. there are tragedies that should never happen, like george floyd, breonna taylor, tyre nichols, and others. when those happen we have to hold police officers accountable for the interest of justice broadly, but most officers do good work and we have to highlight those things. what we've heard too much from over the last several years is what dr. king called the vocal minority that seek to demonize and drive wedges between police and community for their own political, fascist, or whatever,

interests.what we focus on is raising the voice of the majority of the american people who want policing to be more just, want it to be more equitable, want to police officers held accountable, but recognize most police officers in this country do a good job every day. host: movementforward and then the national faith in blue weekend, how do they intersect when it comes to the goal you want? guest: . movementforward is our organization advancing justice. we take the civil rights movement, the women's rights movement, the movement for workers rights, etc., and we move it forward into cooperative spaces. one of the areas is within movement forward, criminal justice matters. national faith and blue weekend our programs and initiatives of

movementforward. host: when it comes to the last one, the training part, what exactly does that involve? what is your organization bring to the table as far as helping police officers and organizations do their job? guest: our organization is at the center bringing together law enforcement in ways that actually help them in their professional lives and perfect how they deal with and address community members of all kinds. not just communities of color, but literally every type of community. what we figured out as we were building out national faith in blue weekend, as we were building that out we figured out one of the reasons why police departments and sheriff's offices don't do a great job of engaging with communities is they frankly don't know how. most police officers are trained multiple hours every month on use of force, how to use a gun, handcuffs, and tools,

but never trained on how to engage with communities. how to speak with people and communities about the issues that are important to those folks in the neighborhood. if you are a narcotics officer, a tactical officer, whatever you are in law enforcement there is some training afforded to you. before we started engaging this body of work there was no training that was offered formally on a national scale to law enforcement officers trying to have community engagement in their profession. we started last year with the professionalizing law enforcement community engagement training where we bring the best subject matter experts, academics, scholars, researchers, etc., together to provide core, central training to law enforcement agencies about how to effectively engage with communities and community organizations. host: if you want to ask questions about police and community engagement, different

numbers for this segment. eastern and central time zone, (202) 748-8000. mountain and pacific time zone, (202) 748-8001. if you are a number of law enforcement and you want to give your perspective, (202) 748-8002 . you can also text us at (202) 748-8003. when you talk about that engagement and training, what would a police officer say is the number one thing? how can you teach me to better engage in communities and communities of color? what would you tell them? guest: it to know the communities that they are policing. most police officers don't live in the communities they work and it's difficult to police a community you don't know. it's difficult to police a citizenry you are unfamiliar with. that is what i think is the most important and essential element of community engagement. police officers need to know the people they are policing. it is interesting. 40 years ago when police officers didn't have cell phones

and technology wasn't as developed as it is now, most police officers got out of the cars, got to know the community, the people they were policing even in the days of segregation and jim crow. the racist police officers in communities at least had some kind of human connection to the people they were policing because they got to know people. one thing that has been a disadvantage to our technological advancements is that we don't connect to one another even in our homes on the same human level that our parents' generations did. that is one thing i think is key and critical for law enforcement. they need to know and be connected on a human level to the people they are sworn to protect and serve. host: how much of the training goes to the idea of building trust with the community and vice versa? guest: a lot of the focus in law enforcement from the doj and department of homeland security, all of the police organizations have been hyperfocus for the last several years as a result

of the murder of george floyd. they have been hyperfocus on building trust and promoting programming that builds trust between law enforcement and communities, but that trust has to go deeper than just investing in public relations efforts, just investing in programming that makes the police look good and makes the community feel good about police. there has to be genuine trust and that trust has to be mutual. not only the community trusting the law enforcement officers, but the law enforcement officers trusting the people they are sworn to protect and serve. if you are a police officer and the only people you're dealing with on a day-to-day basis are the criminals in your community, you develop a psychological and emotional profile of the community you are policing. those trust building activities, the trust building efforts and initiatives, have to be mutual. they have to facilitate the officers also trusting the people in the communities they serve. host: reverend markel hutchins,

president and ceo of movementforward. guest: we are funded primarily by corporate dollars and some private foundation dollars. we get some government grants as well. we are funded through a diversity of streams. host: is law-enforcement part of that stream? guest: we don't really get any funding from law enforcement. we have relationships and partnerships with the national association of chiefs of police, literally every national law enforcement organization in this country as a partner of ours, but they don't fund our work. we like to try to maintain a degree of separation between our partnerships and our funders. host: this is from debbie starting us off in georgia. good morning. thank you for calling. go ahead. caller: good morning. i wanted to comment on your comment, sir, that defunding the police in terms of a philosophy was fundamentally flawed.

what we had determined was that it was a poor message and poor choice of language and not necessarily a flawed philosophy. when you say that it is fundamentally flawed, what do you mean? guest: exactly what you articulated. all of us think that, who do this work nationally, there has to be a reorganization of resources. less incarceration, or those who have psychological challenges. to take resources away from law-enforcement is fundamentally flawed. i don't disagree with the underlying proposition that it was the wording, the messaging, but that matters greatly. when you say defund the police, that inherently means taking something away. we need to support and increase funding for law enforcement, but we also need to support and

expand and supplement their efforts at crime reduction and not supplant them through programs that take away resources from law enforcement. on some level i agree with her underlying promise. host: do you think that that movement took off, died down? what was the overall impact? guest: i think that it took off, but i think that it was an overreaction, an effort to over correct some of the gross injustices, like george floyd, that we've seen in this country. but it has quickly died down. you see in cities like san francisco, denver, other places where the defund the police movement really took off, folks are starting to roll those back. even in portland, oregon we us all recently that some of the efforts and some of the most prominent voices within the criminal justice system that promoted defund the police were summarily dismissed from office. i think that the majority of the american people are beginning to see that our pathway forward in

this country around police injustices is not to supplant or remove resources from law-enforcement, but find other ways to support and supplement our nations law enforcement efforts. host: massachusetts is where matt is for our guest. go ahead. caller: there's so much to say. the fact that we are even squabbling over the word defund and creating a specter as if we are going to lower the funding of police officers in this country is laughable. i see squad cars rolling through cambridge, massachusetts on the daily. thank you for the guest. i think that you're doing something really productive here. there are two sides. the public and the police officers. treating this equation as two separate entities isn't going to work. i think that police officers in this country are rotten to the core, and that's a big problem. that is probably the root of the

problem. so to treat this as a public versus police officer thing almost detract from the core of the issue here. which is, there is a culture of rot in police officers across this entire country. i've seen it. the good old boys club. just in the last year if you look at the massachusetts state police records, there are multiple major corruption cases. i have worked with these guys in construction across multiple industries. i see them every day twiddling their thumbs in construction and yelling at people because they are police officers and are supposed to be directing traffic and they get angry when someone doesn't do what they say. they will obfuscate everything that they can. they have the least integrity of any profession that i've worked with. doctors, academia, construction guys, landscapers. host: what would you like to

direct to our guest? what is the question? caller: what question, what are we going to do to turn this focus on a culture of rot within the police institutions in this country instead of turning it on the public? host: matt in massachusetts, thanks. guest: we have to make a determination. are we going to continue to curse the darkness or light a candle? i'm not familiar with the culture of rot, as he put it. i'm familiar with a culture and law enforcement that needs changing, needs innovation. we need to shift our nations law-enforcement enforcement culture away from a servant or warrior mentality to more of a guardian and servant mentality. the warrior mentality i think is perhaps with this gentleman is referencing. we have to change that. we can't do so if we reduce to yelling and screaming at each other and overgeneralizing. are there bad and corrupt law enforcement officers? yes.

just as there are bad and corrupt doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc. i believe that the vast majority of officers get into the profession to serve the community. i've met them. we partner with them across the country. the overarching theme that somehow the institution of policing is corrupt i think is absolutely incorrect. i think that every time we use our voices to demonize law enforcement we drive the culture and divisions of separation even further into the american ethos. we have to make a determination. are we going to curse the darkness or light a candle? i have decided to light a candle. host: you mentioned the murder of george floyd. at that time widespread calls from capitol hill for reform. what came out of that? guest: i think what came out of it is not a whole lot, frankly. what came out of much of it is a historic spike in crime and violence.

there was a mass wave and exodus of people in law enforcement. we have continued to see struggles and law-enforcement agencies' efforts to attract a diverse workforce. one of the things that i think was an unintended consequence of all of the calls for reform and change, etc., and believe me certainly reformation is needed in law enforcement, but it can't be based on the demonization and division. we need to innovate. we need to hold police officers accountable when they make decisions or when they make mistakes that cost people their lives. the overarching theme that i think came from much of the calls for change was a historic spike in crime and violence. we didn't come as a nation, approach the issue curative late and broadly or holistically. crime and violence have to be at the center of our discussions about how we change, transform,

reform law enforcement. host: richard in augusta, georgia. caller: good morning, reverend. guest: good morning. caller: my situation is my brother in 1968 was shot and killed by police officer. nothing in chester, pennsylvania. do you look at situations where the -- where you investigate old cases like my brother's and try to get reforms done along that line? also, do you address the issue of qualified immunity in the senate and congress? it is a two-part question. do you investigate the situation like my brother in 1968 in chester, pennsylvania, and also address the issue of qualified immunity dealing with senator

tim scott. guest: let me first say that i know it was a long time ago, but i'm sorry that this loss happened to you and your family. feel free to reach out to us, and they will put our contact information on our screen, because we are always interested in civil rights and social justice matters. we have relationships with folks in pennsylvania who may be able to help look at your brother's death. as far as qualified immunity, that is one of the most critical challenges that we face in this country when it comes to holding law-enforcement accountable and responsible. we need to take a better, more comprehensive look at how we create immunity or allow police officers and sheriffs deputies, law enforcement broadly, to get away with certain things they shouldn't be allowed to get away with. i think the conversations around qualified immunity are probably the most critical we could have from a public policy

standpoint. most of the challenges we see with police and community are culture related that cannot be fixed by public policy. but on qualified immunity, the congress of the united states and state legislatures across this country really need to take a second look at how we allow police officers -- how qualified immunity applies to law enforcement officers. often it is used as a tool for injustice against families who have been victimized by police violence. host: our conversation with reverend markel hutchins, the lead organizer and ceo of the national faith and blue weekend and ceo of movementforward. don in new orleans. caller: i will take a swing at it. good morning. good reverence, good morning. i was looking at the title. police and community engagement. community. i know that you know about communion, rev.

my question is, when you talk about the prospect of law enforcement as people, as personnel, not looking at policy so much looking at law enforcement as people, servant in law enforcement, where do they derive from? what communities do they come from? what civic engagement that these citizens of these communities have, especially when you talk about low voter turnout, low registration? a community has everything it needs to thrive and survive, churches, but we are not cynically engaged. we are not -- not civically engaged. we have outdated laws on the books. now they are criminalizing birth control pills. the legislative process of

community and civic engagement i think is the real issue. how do we engage people civi cally and to their civic duty of voting and even running viable candidates? host: got you, don. guest: don raises some excellent points. police and community have to be the same. we can no longer treat law-enforcement as a separate entity in our community. they are not the only responsible parties for insuring a vibrant, vital, -- a vibrant community, if you will. every community-based organization should be engaged around issues like public safety. religious organizations, sports organizations, especially recreationally, should be engaged with public safety to create an environment where the community thrives. i think he's right.

i am a big proponent, as you have articulated, of faith-based organizations getting involved with law enforcement to be goodwill ambassadors and bridge builders between civic organizations and community residents with law enforcement. as long as police officers treat people and communities as somehow separate from their own community we will continue to see these tragic deaths like george floyd, tyre nichols, and others. when tyre nichols was killed in memphis, one of the things that i said on your program and other programs was that it was not excusable but it was explainable. the police officers who killed tyre nichols in memphis were african-american. tyre nichols was african-american. the police officers had been dealing with such high crime and violence in memphis for so long that they had become desensitized to the suffering of the people in their communities

to the point that they just saw tyre nichols as another one of the people in their own community that did not deserve to be treated humanely. they developed in a lot of instances -- police officers have developed psychological and emotional profiles because they are dealing only with the criminals in their communities, which is why i think with the gentleman raises is so important. we have to create psychological and emotional balance for police officers, both in terms of what they receive from their law-enforcement agencies, the academy, the training, etc., but also engagement with community organizations. host: if you're from brooklyn asking what you think about residency requirements for police officers? guest: ideally we would love to see more officers live in the communities that they serve and protect, but to require that i think is a bit of a logistical challenge. we still see in this nation

police departments are overwhelmingly suffering from a staffing shortage. there is a crises in america today with regards to police not having enough people interested in choosing careers in law enforcement.we see major cities like washington, d.c. , where we are today, chicago, most major cities are down hundreds of law enforcement officers. to require police officers to live in those communities would be a further complication for efforts to attract and retain talent. ideally, it would be wonderful if police officers lived in the communities they served. host: the law enforcement officers you engage with say things to the effect they are hesitant to do their jobs because of the attention paid to the aftermath of george floyd, tyre nichols, the presence of cell phone cameras, body cameras. has it made it difficult to engage? guest: it has made it difficult in the communities most exposed to the vestiges of segregation

and jim crow and injustice broadly, they are the ones who suffer the most. communities of color disproportionately suffer when law-enforcement officers don't do their job. which is why i was so concerned by the call to defund the police. the demonization of law enforcement. i have been at the forefront. i have led some of the largest police-involved demonstrations as a result of police violence. i have lead marches from one side of the country to the other, but the best is not against law enforcement it is for law enforcement. we have to perfect policing and not demonize it, because the number one, i think, outcome of the george floyd crises was law enforcement officers left the profession and crime and violence escalated as a result. host: washington state, earl, you are on. caller: rev, i am an ex-marine. one of the things that they

drilled into you from the time that you get to parris island is civilians are garbage. they draw police from the military in a disproportionate number. civilians are garbage, that mentality stays with you the rest of your life. guest: i am not familiar i'm noe training he is referencing, or the teaching that civilians are garbage, what i can tell you is there is some challenge around police officers who are former military, because it is a different proposition. but the reality is that we have got to figure out how to deprogram officers that used to be professional military personnel, because i think -- i

don't know about the garbage thing he is referencing, but there are some challenges for police officers that used to be in the military. because they are dealing with people in very different situations than the communities they should be serving. host: if you want to ask questions, for the eastern and central time zones it is (202) 748-8000. the mountain and pacific time zones it is (202) 748-8001. if you are a member of law enforcement, (202) 748-8002 is the number to call. a viewer asks, whatever happened to community engagement programs like coffee with a cop, the dare program? these are examples of some programs that join police officers with communities. guest: those exist. earlier this month our organization hosted a conference called the professionalizing law enforcement community engagement training. we are proud to partner with the

u.s. department of homeland security. and most of the lash and on -- national law enforcement organizations. everybody recognizes we need to get back to focusing on these positive programs like coffee with a cop, like dare and the police athletic league's that really focus the attention away from the divisions. not to sweep them under the carpet or to somehow deny that george floyd should never have been killed, that tyre nichols was a reality, but focus on what we can do to prevent those tragedies from happening. those programs still very much exist. what we have allowed is, again, the vocal minority to monopolize the conversation and not allow for enough attention to be placed on how we actually cure the problems of police community engagement issues, instead of highlighting the divisions. host: we have a viewer who asks you, why do you breeze over the

notion of holding police accountable? guest: because -- well, first of all, i do not. the truth of the matter is, there has not been many people in this country who have advocated for police accountability any more aggressively than i have. and i continue to do so. i just understand that our pathway forward is not to just focus on the divisions or the dissensions. and police officers make mistakes. for example, when george floyd was killed in minneapolis the president of police, who is a good friend of mine, called me. we had a conversation about the -- about what the fraternal order of police should do. the fop called george floyd's death a murder. the truth of the matter is, marching in -- and protesting still is very much necessary, but our best march at this moment, because crime and violence is an essential issue in our communities, one of the

things that frustrates me is, people talk about social justice issues on there when it comes to police-related violence. we have to deal with police violence, but i for 1 a.m. tired of preaching the funerals and burying young people in communities that die as a result of community-based violence. for every one issue that people like me who are in ministry, civil rights, or social justice, everyone police-involved tragedy, we have 10 community violence-based challenges we have to address. it is incumbent on us to not just focus on police violence. we have to increase the spotlight on community-based violence, and law enforcement is an essential part of how we reduce media-based violence in this country. host: let's hear from dale. dale is in michigan. caller: dave. host: i'm sorry. caller: reverend, can you hear

me? guest: yes, i hear you. caller: my dad used to be a deputy back in the 1960's and 1970's, and i don't know whatever happened to a lot of the deputies. they used to ride with police. number two is, do you think it would be a good idea for the townships or the county to designate three hours of once a week to ride with a police officer to see what the community -- communities actually need and enlighten both sides? what we need to get a grip on and so on? they are going to end up doing community service anyway if you get in trouble. as a youngster if i got in trouble my dad did not want to hear about it. i will take my answer off the air. thank you. guest: absolutely. thank you for your question.

there has to be intentionality. it has to be intentional from law enforcement and the community. every police officer in this country should be required to receive training around how they engage with communities. just as they receive firearms training, they should be required to receive relationship training. how they actually connect to communities. they should also be required to have some psychological and emotional therapy on a regular basis. it is impossible for a police officer to serve on the job long term and not have some psychological or emotional challenges. it should be required to receive therapy and training around those issues. but i think the thing dale raises, or dave, raises is we have to be intentional about those things. police officers should be required to spend time in schools. to spend time in fate-based organizations. as a part of their annual training they should be required to be connected to the communities, because that is the

only way they will ever be able to police effectively, and certainly police justly and equitably. host: as far as oversight and how officers conduct themselves, what type of oversight you think is needed by police on a precinct by precinct level? guest: it has to be community-driven. it has to be community-focused. the oversight has to include people in law enforcement, perhaps even some advocates for law enforcement, but it has to be community-driven. community focused and community-based. the oversight we have seen in a lot of states that are driven by politicians in politics have really been advantageous only to a small minority of people, but to have, really, the benefits of oversight it has to be community-driven for law enforcement. host: to what degree does the justice department get involved in issues? guest: i think the justice department should get involved

when there is a crisis or challenge that cannot be perfected by local communities. local communities, in my estimation, have the answer. but the justice department has a number -- has a responsibility to make sure civil rights are protected. if we are going to see effective non-resistant oversight in communities it has to be driven by local communities and local community representatives. host: let's hear from more in georgia. go ahead. you are on. caller: good morning, c-span. i call myself an old man. i'm 76 and i look at the police, i grew up under jim crow. but in 1968i never got over this. there was a riot at the prison and it was in a come back soon. for people that looked like me,

black. i have been picked up and taken to jail twice by police. one on the day that i retired from the military and one here in georgia. everybody in the car goes to jail. so, my theory of the police, i stopped being a police because of the way they were treating people. there is good police and bad police. when they're in the community i always tell folks, i do not believe that those young men would stand on the corner if they had to get up tomorrow morning and go to work. i just don't believe they would do that. my whole thing, the police now, if i say move, you move. to me, i'm giving you a direct order. you only give a direct order in

the military. host: apologies for that. he got his point across. go ahead. guest: i think we have to change exactly what he is saying. her organization and the work we're doing, even within law enforcement, i also served on the national board of the national law enforcement officers memorial fund. that honors law enforcement officers that have fallen. lot of people ask me, why as a civil rights person, a minister that has been involved in civil rights, why are you working so closely with law enforcement? the answer is, because that is how we are going to change things. we can no longer simply yell and scream at each other. we have to draw close enough to actually be able to change the culture within law enforcement. when he is talking about is a culture that i call a warrior-based culture with law enforcement. we have to change that to a servant-based culture. we cannot do so if we are not in relationships and sitting around

the table of sisterhood and brotherhood and actually talking through how we make changes, how we make transformations in communities. i think he is absolutely right. one of the biggest problems that people have with law enforcement is the way they are addressed. is the way the law enforcement officers too often speak to people in communities. we cannot change that if we do not train law enforcement officers differently than we have change them. which is why we have a significant focus on training law enforcement officers. there is a way to get control and compliance without being rude or disrespectful to the people, and we have to train law enforcement exactly how to do that. i think with this gentleman also raises is the need for communities to be involved with their own public safety. dr. king used to say, we should be the change that we want to see in the world. i encourage more young people,

let's not just, again, curse the darkness. let's light a candle. let's become law enforcement officers. let's become prosecutors and judges that will ensure a more just and equitable criminal justice system. we can continue to march and riot on the street, but ultimately that is not what is going to change things. it is going to change things is when we have a police force in this country, when we have judges and prosecutors that look like the communities, that think like the communities where these community members live. host: the last point you were just making, another viewer saying, how about the community speak and respectfully to law enforcement officers? guest: i think it goes both directions. but the truth is, most community members understand that law enforcement is imperfect, but law enforcement does a good job every single day. people ask me why so much partnership with law enforcement? why do you support law enforcement so much? my mother is 76 years old and

when something happens in our family, when a crisis happens in any community we have to pick up the phone and call 911. so, it makes sense to me for us to perfect the people that respond to our crises, as opposed to demonizing them. i went every police officer in this country to be mentally, physically, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually well, because when they are well they treat people well. host: let's hear from michael in pennsylvania. good morning. caller: good morning, reverend. i think you are an honorable man. i would like you to ingest -- to investigate the george floyd, as you call it, murder. he died from fentanyl. check out the autopsy from the corner. the coroner said he did not die from his fixie nation. appreciate you having me. thank you, have a good day. guest: thank you. host: let's go to carolyn.

last call, north carolina. caller: good morning, c-span, and good morning, reverend hutchins. i wanted to piggyback off the guy in louisiana that was speaking on the community involvement, trying to get people more involved in their own process. i wanted to speak to the fact that, yes, i appreciate what you are doing, but i believe there is a real big to climb, because there are so many elements at play within the policing situation. we have an increase in population. we have increased -- humming, an overload of drug involvement. have an overload of homelessness. all of this contributes back to drugs and everything in the community. so, i'm thinking that is a big mountain to climb. there is so many agencies out there trying to do change, but until the community works

directly with the police departments and be a change of their own, i don't really see anything happening. host: carolyn, thank you. guest: it is interesting, because i suppose 50 years ago when dr. king and dr. abernathy and jesse jackson and so many other people that have impacted my life were fighting against the jim crow laws and segregated south, that people told them, i'm sure, that it is too big of a mountain to climb. but the truth is there is nothing that we cannot solve if we have the courage and capacity to work collaboratively. it has to happen here in our nations capital. it has to happen in state legislatures. it has to happen on county commissions. but it has to happen in local communities. every synagogue, every athletic league, every recreational center has got to focus their attention on public safety, on

crime and violence, on creating an environment where public safety is co-produced by communities and law enforcement together. he certainly cannot overlook the drivers of crime, which also drive police violence. there is a lot of despair and desperation in our communities. a lack of opportunity for young people. we have to continue, as i believe this young lady is suggesting, investing in programming that gives kids an opportunity when they come from the most depressed situations, that give them some options other than just crime. i think, as she suggests, we have to have a holistic and broad approach to how we solve the problem of police violence. and simply focusing on sending corrupt officers to jail is inadequate. it is necessary, but it is inadequate. we have to look more broadly, and building goodwill, building partnerships between law enforcement at every level, from

the u.s. department of justice down to the smallest police department, is an essential and key element of how we promote justice and fairness in this country. host: reverend markel hutchins of movementforward. thanks for giving us your time today. guest: thank you. good to be with you again. host: coming up, we are going to be joined by the former new york lieutenant governor, sigma coffee. -- betsy mccaughey. we will discuss the overall state of health care. before that, open forum. you can participate by calling (202) 748-8000 free democrats. (202) 748-8001 for republicans. and independents, (202) 748-8002 . we will take those calls when "washington journal" continues. >> today an unprecedented armada

landed on the shores of normandy. >> these are the boys. [applause] these are the men who took the cliffs. these are the champions who helped free a continent. and these are the heroes who helped in day war. >> 2 million son from 15 countries met death on an even playing. >> the sons of democracy improvise their own attacks. at that exact moment, on these beaches the forces of freedom turned the tide of the 20th century. >> that road was hard and long,

and traveled by weary and valiant men. and history will always record where that road began. it began here, with the first footprints on the beaches of normandy. >> within 150,000 souls set off towards this tiny sliver of sand upon which hung more than the fate of a war. but rather, the course of human history. but today we remember those who fell, and we honor all who fought right here in normandy. >> watched c-span's all-day special coverage of the 80th anniversary of d-day, thursday, june 6, featuring a speech by president biden in normandy, france. >> "washington journal" continues.

host: it is open forum. if you want to participate, call the line that best represents you. if you called in the last 30 days, if you would hold off doing so today, we would appreciate it. you can also text us. (202) 748-8003. bill in georgia, republican line. you are first up on this open forum. good morning. caller: i would just like to comment on the justice's wife flying the flag upside down. that is usually a sign of distress. if anyone ever thought she might be distressed by all of the secret service people or u.s. marshals that have to follow her all day to protect her? has anyone ever thought about the protesters who go around her house and threaten her and her children all day and nothing is done by the justice department to arrest these people? because they are going against the law. they should be arrested.

justice alito may be scared, and that is why she is in distress and that is why she is flying the flag upside down. has anyone ever thought about what she is feeling? she might just be plain scared. and that is the reason, more than likely, why she flies the flag upside down. host: ok. caller: she did it, knowing this would be a controversy, but she herself feels scared. no one seems to give a darn about a woman who is in danger. host: this is gary in dayton, ohio. democrats line. caller: hi, pedro. i wanted to comment on the fact that the thing that happened in louisiana with, they classified abortion pills as a schedule one narcotic, i think, and i wanted

to know if anything happened with that. i want to put it out there, like, some of these democratic states that are out there, they should put out -- they should try to make chocolate and caffeine schedule one narcotic, because those things are far more addictive. host: ok. area in ohio. a couple of things today that are happening outside of washington, d.c. there is a special session that will take place today in ohio, the ohio legislature. it is called by governor mike dewine change an election deadline. state lawmakers have been called into special sessions by governors 27 times. the most recent in 2024, and seven times no law was passed, but mike dewine says he wants fellow republicans to move on the foreign money ban and the

fix to ensure president biden is on the ballot this november. "i have been patient. my patience has run out. i think the patience of the people of the state of ohio, their patients should have run out by now as well. " you can see that taking place in ohio. also in texas there will be an anticipated primary election runoff to make waves. global republicans. abbott has taken aim at the republican incumbents who voted against his signature sool voucher program. paxton is targeting the republicans who voted to impeach him. and along with patrick, abbott and paxton targeted lawmakers who defied them, pouring money into their opponent's campaigns. look for those to play out in

the various states. the electoral process continues on. you can comment on that if you want. jim in connecticut, independent line. caller: hello, pedro. i made some notes here about what i'm thinking, so here it is. regarding the general election in november, first, whatever happens and whoever wins, there is no reason to blame election officials or election workers. they are a cross-section of our population. they are generally fair-minded, decent people. i have to say that because after the last general election they became targets of harassment and threats. i think it is crucial that our leaders, including members of congress, answer when asked if they will stand by the election results. i must give credit here to senator graham for saying he would, although he added the caveat, as long as there is no cheating. when any number of congress refuses to answer that question,

they malign the process, as well as the people who have taken the task of conducting it. i have searched the internet looking for an incident where an election worker witnessed a suspicious action. i look for news for a russell blower among our nations election workers and found nothing. this makes me wonder if it is possible to direct a conspiracy to raid the presidential election and still have not a single person working at the thousands of polls across america get wind of it and blow the whistle on it. keep in mind too, that the votes among election workers themselves are split between democrats and republicans. i think we might be jeopardizing our own system from both sides if we do not withstand what i believe is a baseless mistrust, and i think it is time our leaders took responsibility to get back on track when asked if they will stand by election results. host: ken is in michigan,

independent line. hello. caller: hello? host: you are on, go ahead. caller: yeah, this thing about the supreme court's flying a flag upside down is so ridiculous. it should not even have comment. there are bigger things going on. we have the last person on the supreme court can't even decide if it is a woman or man. however they going to decide major decisions that we need decided on? and is she going to recuse himself -- i mean, himself or whatever it is? is she going to recuse from any male or female decisions? host: ken in michigan. it is open forum. you can post online too at the various sites. (202) 748-8000 for democrats. (202) 748-8001 for republicans. independents, (202) 748-8002. one of the things to look out for today in new york city, the

wall street journal writing that a jury of five women and several men in donald trump's hush money trial is given the historic trial -- task of whether to convict a former president. mr. trump so far has emerged largely unscathed from his trial on felony charges, but a conviction would be a first for a former president, threatening mr. trump's standing with some voters and handing president biden new ammunition to portray his rival as unfit for office. an acquittal could be a career-defining moment for trump, who likely would cast himself as having vanquished an improper political prosecution. again, watch out for that and more coming out of new york city today. you will hear from frank in long island, independent line. caller: hey, pedro. good morning. i agree with the previous caller. the whole flag issue is really a

nonissue. i don't understand why we are spending so much time on it. when there are so many more important things to do. to talk about. but you showed a segment earlier of -- i don't know who he was -- a segment taken from msnbc, who in my opinion is probably the most divisive political news organization that there is, intended solely to divide us, not unite us, but specifically congressman or whoever he was that was speaking, my point is simply this. when you are making, stating a point and inject the word maga -- i think he said maga flags, which is ridiculous. when you inject that into the conversation anything you say is

immediately dismissed by me. because it clearly shows who you are doing nothing more than a partisan hack. not somebody who is willing to work together with people. we need to unite and not be divided. as part of the offense of memorial day president biden heading to arlington national cemeteries to lay a wreath at the tomb of the unknown soldier which many administrations have done over the course of time as part of their presidential duty. you can see that at c-span. now. president biden made comments about the day and here they are. [video clip] >> they fought for our freedom and the freedom of others

because freedom has never been guaranteed. every generation has to earn it, fight for, defendant between the great and few and the rights of many. it matters. our democracy is more than just a system of government it is the soul of america. it is how we adapt through the centuries and emerge from every challenge stronger than we have come in. just as our fallen heroes have kept the faith, we must keep faith with them. i have long said we have many obligations us a nation but only one true, sacred obligation.

to take care of those in battle when they come home and when they don't. i have signed a law for veterans, caregivers and survivors. the pact act which i was proud to sign has guaranteed one million claims. too long after fighting for our nations they have to fight to get the right health care and the benefits they earned. not anymore. our nation came together to make sure that it wasn't on them to prove their illness to ensure they protect them and protect the united states because it is assumed that their death was a consequence of exposure. we came together again to

reflect, remember but above all, recommit to the future they fought for. a future grounded in freedom, democracy and equality. host: there is more from the president available on the website. we will hear from charles on the democrat side. caller: hey how are you doing sir? i want to appeal to your better angels. people who are getting paid in checks are enjoying this divided. we have to find decency within ourselves and stand for what is right. no matter what particular party or affiliated with, we all know right from wrong and we should stand together and stop being fooled by people with interest

that are simply for themselves. host: who are you referring to? caller: i used to enjoy listening to the show because it was like listening to my neighbors but unfortunately, we are being fooled by lies and things that are not true. deep down inside we all know what is right and wrong and we have way more in common that we do differences. we need to stand together and be better citizens and do what is right and stand for what is right. host: from anthony, in virginia. caller: i'm not a republican, i am a conservative. host: but you're a member of the

republican party? caller: i vote with them. i'm want to speak on immigration i think this will lead to the destruction of the country. over the lighted presidency millions of millions of people have crossed the border. i am not saying they are bad people. the lighted administration is redistributing them across the country. they are coming from countries all over the world and a lot of them cannot sustain themselves. we are printing money to put them up in housing and this is costing billions of dollars. these people, they have no connection to our heritage,

history, traditions. they don't speak your language. i don't understand -- i saw a report that the biden administration is flying the men with taxpayer money. i think they need to be deported. trump needs to win and everyone needs to be sent back. caller: i have very rarely agreed with samuel alito but that flag was put up on january 6. that is the exact message that needed to be sent. if anyone looks at the footage

they will see this country is in distress. the supreme court, someone needs to lock them with the room with the thesaurus. it is ridiculous. host: the times of israel reporting the united nations security council set to meet for an emergency session after the roughest strike reported over the weekend. spain, norway and ireland said the only way to peace in the region. the emergency meeting was held on tuesday over the israeli strike that killed dozens already dispersed person

community. the palestinians are calling it a massacre and israel was looking into the tragic messiah. we hear from ronald in ohio on the independent line. caller: hello pedro. i just want to talk about how the president hello? host: you are on, go ahead. caller: how the president always celebrates memorial day when all the veterans of all the wars should get free health care. like the congressman and senators. get free health care.

why can't the veterans if they care so much about the veterans. that is my question. host: ronald in ohio. if you are interested in the topic of russia at 10:30 a discussion taking a look at sanctions and the effectiveness of those sanctions. featuring national security council member fiona hill sponsored by the brookings institution. you can watch it on this channel, the app or the .org as well. we will hear from mary in south carolina. caller: good morning pedro. your channel makes me cry. the service you showed on the veteran memorial day brought

something back to me about our flag. the united states flag reminds me of what we stand for and when i thought about what may be cry yesterday. it was what donald trump said about our soldiers. when he called them suckers and losers. that bothers me until this day and yesterday i brought it back when he talked about soldiers who passed in this country. i think there should be a law against hanging our flags upside down. this flag stands for something in this country. a bald eagle stands for something and we should not take it lightly. if you don't like what is going on, we. if you think our government is

so bad that you can hang up flag upside down. something is wrong with this country. people who followed donald trump, he has no respect for our military service people. if you called them losers and suckers donald trump you are a loser and her followers are suckers. host: brandon on the republican line. caller: good morning. host: go ahead. caller: i just wanted to share a little bit. i could go on for hours. i just want to talk a little bit about the state of the you in. today is something that should

never have occurred. the right wing, left wing that has transformed our nation from a republic to a democracy to a bipartisan forum for whoever hates more. the worst thing about it, having parties purchases more and more towards an america where it does not matter who you vote for. it matters what party.

bipartisanship eliminates the democratic process because there are only two parties to vote for. if you get elected you should become president and second becomes vice president but instead we're stuck in the state we are in. host: let's hear from richard in california. caller: hi pedro, how are you? host: fine, thank you. caller: i wanted to say a few things about donald trump. oh is speak about kellyanne conway. the lady who got him into office in the first place and her husband george conway and her daughter who wanted to emancipate from her.

and margaret hoover. i would like to read from you the definition of fascism. according to the definition extreme authoritarianism and nationalism often manifested in racial purity or a master race blended with subvariant of racism, demonize others such as jews, homosexuals are immigrants. that is the definition. yesterday, or sunday, george conway was on margaret hoover show she does the night show on sunday and he preferred to donald, similar to hitler's, a

fascist. i am fearful we will lose our constitution. there are prominent republicans who fear fascism. we fought world war ii against fascism. we just had memorial day to honor those who fought fascism. i just can't stand it. this is a terrible situation. people need to hear the word fascist with donald trump because he is a fascist. host: let's hear from richard in pennsylvania on the republican line. caller: listening this morning, a lot of the same games. we have to stop listening to the lies that are out there. basically, what has happened, we are listening to one man who is

a demagogue. the republican party it wants was but it is the lies that are killing us. people are struggling to live their lives and we have to stop listening to this bs out there. i have heard it on the show as well. please, do not lose our democracy that's the main thing. don't listen to the lies, listen to reason. host: one story from u.s. today. the army cartel u.s. smugglers tied to recovered guns. a week from military intelligence said u.s. gun smugglers had which type of guns being traffic.

it was shared with the news outlets under the transparency organization. the mexican defense ministry made headlines for exposing military corruption despite efforts to stem the flow, fire worms are smuggled south end of violence in central america fueled by guns and contributing to the immigration crisis. if you want to find it online on their website. our final guess this morning will be ny lt. gov. betsy mccaughey the chair of the committee to decrease infection tests. she will join us next when washington journal continues.

>> c-span has been delivering unfiltered congressional coverage for 40 years. here's a highlight from key moments. >> to my colleagues, friends, wife and family i have hurt you deeply and i beg your forgiveness. i was prepared to lead our narrow majority and i believe i had it in me to do a fine job. i cannot do that job or be the kind of leader i would like to be under the current circumstances. i must set the example that i hope president clinton will follow. i will not stand for speaker of the house on january 6 but rather, i shall remain a fact

venture -- back bencher where i will vacate my seat and ask for a special election to take my place. >> c-span now but free mobile lab featuring your unfiltered view of what's happening in washington live and on-demand. you can also stay current with the latest episodes of washington journal and find scheduling information for c-span and c-span radio and podcasts. it's available at the apple store and google play. visit our website at c-span.org/

c-span now. your front row seat so washington anytime, anywhere. "washington journal," continues. host: betsy mccaughey is the founder of trying to reduce infectious debt. thank you for joining us and giving us your time this morning. guest: i am thrilled with this opportunity. every year so much information there is so eager we are to share with patients and families and to give you an idea of the size of this problem. nearly 100,000 people year and that's a conservative estimate. died from hospital acquired

infections. infections you get after going to the hospital and these are largely preventable. right now, these infections kill more people than aids, cancer and auto accidents combined. that gives you some extent of the size of the problem. host: when did you become aware of it? guest: when i was lieutenant governor people came to me with health problems and i got so much mail yesterday -- every day. it was the same version of the same problem. i took my mother or father or brother or child and they contracted a deadly infection. when i left office in 1998 i vowed to do something about it. i dug in the journals at the

medical library, there are several journals devoted exclusively to hospital infections. we have the knowledge to prevent most of these infections but we lack the will. we are patient centered and provide information to hospitals and caregivers but are major focus is putting in the hands of patients and families the steps i can take to protect themselves. if i were to ask you, what is the biggest factor determining who gets an infection? what would you say? is it age? is it the illness they brought into the hospital? the biggest factor determining who gets an infection is the

time they are assigned to the bed. their risk goes up because that patient was discharged but their germs were not. they're still on the privacy curtain, door knobs, television monitor and call buttons. the obvious answer is inadequate cleaning is a major cause of these infections. columbia school of nursing did a study that shows if you're put in a room where the preceding occupant had an affection your chances are sixfold. there are so many other bad boys you can get in the hospital, your risk goes up.

host: wouldn't hospitals have protocols for cleaning so these things would not happen? guest: cleaning is inadequate. i will give you an example. dr. michael perry had of infectious diseases, highly regarded epidemiologist did a study of 1100 hospital rooms from washington, trenton, jersey city, new york. providence, boston, some of the premier institutions and found half the services in the room that were supposed to be cleaned when one patient is discharged before another brought in. those services were overlooked by the cleaners.

if you need to eat your lunch the safest place to put your sandwiches on the toilet seat. they never overlook that but other parts of the room they often overlook. there needs to be much more rigorous cleaning. at flush medical hospital they use of crew with florescent lights and work with the cleaners. cleaners are hesitant to get too close to the patient and they are worried about time because

hospitals want to turn these rooms over quickly. host: the committee you founded and correct me if i am wrong, you don't have a medical background so who do you depend on for your information? guest: everyone on our board is a physician. we have a premier cardiologist from new york hospital, dr. jeffrey moses, we have the back surgeon from special surgery and dr. michael perry from stanford part of the columbia system. and epidemiologists. we have a strong roster of physicians who are closely involved in our efforts. host: the committee to reduce infectious tests and if you want

to ask her a question the lines are (202) 748-8000 for eastern/central, (202) 748-8001 mountain/pacific and if you are a medical professional and want to give your perspective on this topic, (202) 748-8002. you talked about services but what about the people involved? if they're part of the transmission problem how do you correct that? guest: touching is incredibly important unfortunately, hand hygiene is very much recommended and some hospitals can detect which members of staff failed to clean their hands between patients.

we have seen, across dramatic increases with hand hygiene. we have to keep reminding people . i was at the doctor's office when the patient said, the different colleges put on his gloves and he turned around and moved the chair away and went to touch the wound again and i said please, change your gloves. we have to emphasize these protocols so they don't contaminate their hands or failing to clean their hands before they pulled the gloves out of the box. let me give you a few dramatic examples. at the mayo clinic they were concerned about the c. diff it's

a common infection that patients can contract orally rather than some other way. when patients touch surfaces and they get their meal tray or someone brings a box of cookies and a pickup items with their hands. antibiotics are a problems because they have killed valuable flora in the gut. it can cause ramp it diarrhea and damage to the:. he decided he would experiment and he found if he wiped the high touch surfaces right around

the bed it reduced c.diff 86%. thus suggest how powerful the environment is in causing the transmission of bacteria. host: we have some calls for you if you want to take calls. this is patricia from new jersey. caller: good morning c-span. good morning betsy and hello america. you are definitely telling the truth. i had a brother with heart disease in a nursing home in philadelphia and we had to go in there and clean his room every day. not that it was dirty, but i am 68 and i remember the hospital being anti-septic.

my mom had a three week stay in a major hospital and they did great work. i had to go in there and clean her room every day. the bathroom gets clean but i tell you, the doors, baseboards, under the bed. i felt we need to speak up about , thank god for you. i don't know what to do, things are changing in america. this is a serious issue. host: that is patricia in new jersey. guest: your parents are very lucky to have you to go to the hospital every day and clean up for them, god bless you that is really wonderful. you mentioned long-term care and the beginning our focus was on hospital acquired infections we are also trying to battle infections in nursing homes and

these are long-term care facilities, often times people at discharge from the hospital and they get into care facilities a can nursing home for three weeks or so before they go home. it is really important to be aware of what to do to protect yourself from infection in these nursing homes as well because the infection rates in the nursing homes are about three times higher than in the hospitals. why is that? they have less staff, they are overburdened, their staff turns over quickly and they are not as well trained so we try very hard to provide training for staff members. we go to nursing homes free of charge and give them a course in how to reduce infection risk for their patients. but we also have this brochure that you can have. you can come to our website, hospitalinfection.org.

, we have 15 steps you can take before and during your hospital stay and then 10 steps for when you are choosing a care facility. this is important because when you're in the hospital if you are the patient or a family member, the social workable, around and say mrs. jones we don't think you ready to go home. they are by law prohibited from recommending one person -- one place or the other. they will take it or a bed is available. so we made a list of things to look for so when you get to a nursing home you've chosen the right one. for example you want to go to a nursing home where they are very meticulous about avoiding bedsores. you want to make sure they have

the proper mattresses that constantly adjust your weight so the pressure is not sitting on one part of your body at all times. you want to make sure they turn the patients rapidly according to a schedule to make sure the pressure isn't on one part of your body. that they have wedges for your heels and foam wedges to put in between your knees. that's one thing. another thing to look forward -- look for is to make sure they provide proper care, that is cleaning of the inside of your mouth and teeth every day because when patients are in the hospital or nursing home and they sit there day after day and no one brushes their teeth and cleans the roof of their mouth, bacteria builds up and then it hardens like a shell and then when you aspirate it, that's called aspirational pneumonia which is a very common infection

in the hospital. host: this is bob in new hampshire. hello. caller: i have a question. i went onto medicare, i was very happy with that. i was a was thinking medicare advance was against medicare sows trying to take things away. i went under medicare advantage in them very happy with that. my question is medicare advantage and private companies are they taking away from medicare? i heard they were more efficient. guest: my twin brother is on medicare advantage so we often have this discussion. i was smiling just thinking about it. medicare advantage is very good for some people. if you're generally very healthy and you want those extra perks

that medicare advantage provides sometimes it's a gym membership or dental care or eyeglasses, it's a really good deal. on the other hand, if you have serious problems like cancer in your family or a history of chronic illnesses, you might prefer to stay with regular medicare because may have limits on which doctors you can use, that's kind of a simple explanation. host: a viewer asking where can we find information on our local hospitals are doing in preventing infection? guest: i'm so glad you asked because one of the things for many years, not one state required hospitals to disclose their infection rate. now we are up to 37. if you come to our website, part

of the website will show you how to find the hospital infection rates for the hospitals in your own area because in most states that information is now publicly available and we have links to it please come to our website and we will show you how to do it. host: is there a degree they are tolerable versus ones you have concerns over? guest: first of all, there should be -- in an ideal world there should be almost no infections. i will say sometimes pneumonia is really relating to aging and almost on and voidable. the surgical site infections are preventable through proper protocol and meticulous cleaning. so i would like to see very low infection rates. i would like to see emphasis on disclosure.

in england they put the cleanliness rating of the hospital on the front door. in america we do that for restaurants you can go home and make your own dinner, it's more important to know that for hospitals. host: you talked about some of those infections, with bloodstream and surgical effect, with the use of ventilators particular commonplace with the hospital. what's the risk of infection due to that? guest: it is a serious problem we saw a lot of that during covid when so many people were on ventilators. and there are things that can be done to reduce the risk of ventilator associated pneumonia. we have a lot on our website about that. it is quite technical but very important. here -- let me tell you a few things you can do before and during your hospital stay. for example, do not shave if you

are going into the hospital, do not shave your face, your legs, any part of your body. shaving creates nixon the skins to which -- so it's like putting out a welcome mat for infection. if you are having most types of surgery, a hip replacement, knee replacement, cardiac surgery, if you wash with -- , but if you bathe with this type of liquid soap for three days before your surgery, it will remove dangerous bacteria from your own skin that could migrate to your surgical incision and cause a nasty infection. new england did a very important study on that and that's part of our 15 steps you can take to reduce your risk of a hospital infection.

i should just mention we've also created a kit that has in it everything you need, all the tools mentioned in our steps we started offering them. we don't make any money off this. but this kit has a small vial of the soap in it and many other things you need during your stay to reduce your risk of infection for even stickers that say please clean your hands before treating me. you'll find this on the website. a wonderful company that also makes those devices to prevent children from choking. >> where just the committee get its funding? >> from donations, from individuals. host: any medical community, anybody associated with the pharmaceutical industry?

guest: no big corporations. it's all just individuals who donate. >> north dakota is next, this is margaret. good morning. caller: good morning. i'm so glad to talk to you. when my mother was in the hospital, she had a heart attack and when she was in there a few days, there was a hole in the back of her leg. you could drop an egg in it. i'd like to know how did she get something like that because then when they discharged her, i had a sister-in-law that had to come up -- clean her hole with this

dressing and when i saw that, my heart just dropped. i don't understand how something like that happened. guest: i wish i could tell you. sometimes when people are very ill they have a central line and it creates a whole. i'm sorry but that -- that they sent your mother home thought adequately preparing you or sending her to a nursing home where she could be cared for. host: carrie in milwaukee you're up next for our guest. good morning. >> one thing i would like to add before i get to my question. the difference between traditional medicare and medicare advantage. again if you are healthier, medicare has no out-of-pocket limits. but medicare advantages

typically have four or five or $6,000 maximum out-of-pocket limit. however medicare advantage for many procedures requires prior authorization which can be difficult to get sometimes. to my question for your guest. guest: let me say thank you for adding that. i appreciate that addition. caller: absolutely. i think you said your organization is about 20 years old. you've been talking about all the things we as patients can do to help keep ourselves and loved ones getting infections. i imagine earlier on in your 20 year history you probably thought that helps the hospitals or encourage the hospitals to do better cleaning from that sense. what sort of pushback did you get from the medical community on that? >> a lot. i'm glad you mentioned that. i've got a lot of pushback.

it's not just me personally. but for example there are now several technologies available that could guarantee every patient a disinfected hospital room. several years ago companies came out with hydrogen peroxide, others came out with uv light used to go in and out of the room sprayed and there's a new one, diluted hydrogen peroxide. some of these can only be used when the patient is not in the room because they are toxic but now there are some available like the hydrogen peroxide diluted that can be used automatically continuously installed so patients can have a totally disinfected hospital room. you would think that hospitals would be investing in this especially after covid because there was a significant transmission of covid in hospital.

i am amazed hospitals not done more to provide more with a disinfected hospital. host: a viewer following up on that asking the question or at least making the statement many hospitals don't have -- how did they prevent them from spreading? >> this caller is absolutely correct. the risk of getting a hospital infection is significantly higher if you are in a double room. some newer hospitals for example were dr. michael perry is head of infections just built that hospital all single rooms. they are definitely safer. >> again if you're interested in asking questions of our guests regarding hospital-based infections, 202-748-8000 for the eastern and central time zones. 202-748-8001 for the mountain

and pacific time zones. 202-748-8002 for patients. guest: i was get a say let me give patients more suggestions. if you're in the hospital and getting ready to come home, don't bring home all the stuff you received in the hospital. you may have had some stuffed animals there were other things that family members brought you or even departure gifts at the hospital, don't bring more home than you absolutely have to bring home because anything that's been in that room has been exposed to bacteria and you want to come home without all the bacteria. so, home, clean your shoes, make sure you put your hands -- it's clean thoroughly before you put it on the vanity in your bathroom.

just assume anything that was in the hospital is contaminated because it is. >> because you mentioned those cleaning things are the advances in cleaning things. this popped the question from a viewer asking the question would cause a substantial increase in the cost of care hospitals to ensure cleaning of all bacteria's. he adds with a contract cleaning company's be liable for not following the terms of the contract? >> i can tell you cleaning hospitals better will pay off big time on the bottom line because hospital infections are very damaging to a hospital profit and loss statement. hospital infections are extremely expensive, the average centerline infections, surgical site infection can cause as much as $56,000 just to address treatment cost. hospital infections at $35 billion a year in treatment cost

of the nations hospital bill. a lot of that is absorbed by the hospitals rate i can tell you early on under george bush and said please tell medicare to stop reimbursing hospitals for treating infections or hospitals and medicare did that. hospitals are -- hospitals can be much more profitable if they improve their cleaning. >> adriana in los angeles, good morning. >> thank you for taking my call. i have a comment. what do you think about training technicians to be more hygienic, for example every time i go in to get blood drawn the person or the nurse i've seen this happen, they'll take the alcohol to and

clean your skin and then they touch the skin or blow on it before they insert the needle. guest: i so agree with you. there does need to be more training, sometimes is he a person in the hospital a caregiver pick it up and they don't clean their hands and put on a new air of gloves. caregivers pull that out without clean their hands first before the river put on. you see a doctor clean his hands or her hands outside the room and then walk in and pull open the privacy curtain. that is the dirtiest thing in the world bar none. totally filthy. so the caregivers hands are clean before they ever reach the patient. so you are quite right there needs to be much more training

and envisioning where the bacteria are and what needs to be done to prevent that bacteria from getting to the patient. host: what about if a patient has to go get an x-ray or go to therapy or things like that. how does that complicate the problem? guest: it complicates the problem a lot. there are some countries where a wheelchair for example you don't just use a wheelchair and then push it out into the hallway for somebody else to use. wheelchairs used by people who are positive for certain types of bacteria aren't allowed to be used for anybody else. unfortunately there's too often hear indiscriminate use of medical technology. i'll tell you an interesting story. there was an outbreak of infection in galveston texas in the hospital.

they spent a lot of time researching how this infection traveled because burn victims or socha -- fragile. and they finally identified that the culprit was an ekg wire. so here's the punchline. the last patient to be treated with that 37 days earlier prayed that along the bacteria can live on a piece of medical equipment. it's got inside the blood pressure costs from room to room. always have the caregiver put this around your garment and clean the inside of it. you're picking up the bacteria. host: we will hear next from pennsylvania. caller: i love this girl that's on. i have one question prayed most

of the rooms in hospital have their own blood pressure cuff. the doctor has his own stethoscope. host: linda therein pennsylvania. guest: the easiest is to just wipe it off with an alcohol swab , the alcohol pad before the next patient that will to clear up the bacteria and caregivers should do that. they should clean the stethoscope before using it on the next patient. caller: hello c-span, thank you for taking my call. i have a couple of questions. you mentioned uv light's in the hospital that they use occasionally. there's a uv light advertise for

people in their home, is that effective you think, -- >> it is effective at killing germs but it is caustic and so i would not recommend uv light. i don't even recommended in the hospital. i think there are two problems with uv light in the hospital. first you can see the room and secondly it doesn't go around corners or under beds or behind things so some of the other products or hydrogen peroxide products are better because they don't depend on the line of sight. >> follow-up question. >> this is more of a medical question. about a month ago i came down with celluloses which is a bacterial disease under the skin.

so the treatment was antibiotics , but for some reason was only allowed to take two courses of antibiotics, what's wrong with continuing antibiotics or using them. >> thanks for the question. >> right now there such an emphasis on antibiotic stewardship. they may have given that to address the bacterium affecting you. >> suzanne is in ohio in cincinnati, good morning. >> good morning. if someone is looking at possibly having surgery and your doctor does it either in a hospital or at a freestanding surgery center, which would you recommend? >> freestanding surgery center.

of course there are many variables. i can compare exactly because i don't know which freestanding surgery center, but in general it's better to be in a place where there aren't a lot of sick people. >> to that end, what you think about the growth of freestanding health clinics across do they pose the same degree of problems than a concentrate play such as a hospital. >> i'm talking about surgery here. freestanding health clinics depends on the abilities of the professional whose providing services in those freestanding clinics. we've looked carefully at freestanding surgery centers and the big advantage they have assuming all other things are equal is that you don't have a lot of sick people there so you can really control the overall level of bacteria living inside the institution. there's a lot of really bad bugs

living in hospitals. you won't find any place else, you never hear about those germs anywhere else except in the hospital. host: is that because of the in and out nature of the hospital or are there specific causes? >> people who come to the hospital a very sick read one somebody comes in with something that happens to be a very serious fungal disease, once it gets into the hospital it's hard to control it. it gets into the ceiling tiles on the equipment. it's very deadly. bloodstream infections have a 50% mortality rate. when hospital gets hit with a germ like that it is a serious problem. you don't hear about that in a freestanding surgery center. >> here is a viewer asking you they start by saying i read about -- they help reduce infections but there's a lot to

do with the arrogance of some physicians especially surgeons. guest: how true. of course there's arrogance and all professions. i have a great deal of respect for people in the medical profession but like any other profession there's some people who say i don't want to hear more. but if you're going to see a surgeon ask the questions, ask them about screening you, swabbing your nasal passages. for bacteria, doing those swabs you can identify if your own skin has dangerous bacteria that could migrate into your surgical incision. so when you go into surgery, you are optimizing the opportunity to get that surgery without an infection. >> because you had experience with the federal government over your years, has the department

of health and human services ever tackled this issue a bacterial infection in the hospital. >> honestly the cdc could do much more, that agency unfortunately is suffering from a lot of mission confusion. instead of focusing on their original mission of stopping infectious diseases, they are involved in everything from auto accidents to smoking. all good causes but the need to focus on asking hospitals to do more to protect patients from infection. >> this will be from leo in illinois. go ahead please. >> thank you c-span for having this guest on. it is somebody who thinks like us. host: leo you are cutting in and out could you try getting closer

to your device please. caller: ok. how is that. my question is what do you think about overcrowding of the emergency rooms, that's my question. host: he said overcrowding and emergency rooms. guest: overcrowding is a problem. people go to the emergency room for several reasons. the major reason -- users of emergency rooms are elderly people. it's because they truly have emergencies. now with so many people coming from the southern border we have many more newcomers who don't have insurance and don't know where else to go they go to the emergency room. emergency rooms are overcrowded. some hospitals handle that well by sorting people out when they first come in and then people

who need more basic services but don't know where else to go. as long as i've been involved in this emergency rooms have always been effective. >> the committee to reduce infection deaths, the founder and chairman she previously served as the former lieutenant governor. you can find the work of her organization at hospital infection.org. thank you for your time this morning. guest: thank you so much i hope it's been helpful to everyone watching. host: that's it for our program today. another edition comes your way tomorrow at 7:00 a.m.. ♪ [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2024]

>> a look now at what's coming up today here on c-span. at 1030 a.m. eastern, former national security council official neonatal and another just on a number of others will discuss the effectiveness of u.s. sanctions imposed on russia and its hosted by the brookings institution. later at 2 p.m. eastern today, assistant health secretary dr. rachel levine will talk about ways to improve mental health and well-being. you can watch these events live on c-span, c-span now also available online at c-span.org. ♪ >> today and on precedented armada landed on the shores of normandy. >> these are the boys who landed

here. [applause] >> these are the men who took the cliffs. these are the champions who helped free a continent, these are the heroes who helped end a war. >> 2 million suns from 15 countries jumped into flak filled skies and a bloodsoaked surf and met death on an even plane. >> the sons of democracy improvised and mounted their own attacks. at that exact moment, on these beaches, the forces of freedom turned the tide of the 20th century. >> the road to v-e day was hard and long and traveled by weary and valiant men and history will always record where that road began. it began here with the first footprints on the beaches of normandy. >> more than 150,000 souls set

off toward this tiny sliver of sand upon which hung more than the fate of a war, but rather the course of human history. >> today we remember those who fell and we honor all who fought right here in normandy. >> wife c-span's live all day special coverage of the 80th anniversary of d-day, thursday, june 6, featuring a speech by president biden from normandy, france. ♪ >> the house will be in order. >> this year, c-span celebrates 45 years of covering congress like no other. since 1979, we been your primary source for capitol hill, providing balanced, unfiltered coverage of government. we take it to where the policies are debated and decided with the