♪ host: good morning. ■pit's wednesday, may 29. we are asking about class in america.

what does it take to be middle-class? ■zwe are asking you what social class you identify with, middlee you in the same class as your parents were,? -- were? if you consider yourself below middle-class, call us on (202) 748-8000. if you consider yourself middle-class, call (202) 748-8001. if you are above middle-class, (202) 748-8002. you can send us a text at (202) 748-8003. include your first name and city and state. n social media. facebook.com/cspan, and xuc at @cspanwj. we are glad you are with this. we start with what the census

defines as middle-class. this is from 2020. middle-class income ranges from $30,000 to $90,0 a■mear. for couple it is■zetween $42,000 and $127,000. a family of three, $60,000 to $180,000. that is from the census, the definition of middle-class from 2020. let's look at what resident biden said last month in scranton. he was talking about tax cuts and trickle-down economics hurt the middle class. [video] >> for more than 40 years our republican friends have promised the best way to grow the economy is from the top down. here's what they don't tell you. it has never worked.

the benefits don't trickle-down. the very wealthy pay lesson we have to borrow more in invest less in things families need. what happens when the factory closes in scranton or anywhere around the country? or a school is underfunded? why grows larger? it pushes the middle class out of reach and the dignity, pride and hope out of communities across the country, including here in pennsylvania. trickle-down economics failed the middle-class. it failed america. donald embodies that failure. he wants a double down on trickle-down. host: that was president biden. here are results from that pole i mentioned -- poll i mentioned and how it has changed. from 22 to 2006, 60 1% of americans conside

middle or upper middle class. in recession the number nt down to 56%. since then and has stayed relatively stable around 53%. the combined percentage of adults identifying as working or lower class has increased from an average of 37% before the recession in 2008 to around 45% currently. former president trump was at a rally in new jersey talking about tax cuts and class in america. [video] >> i will give you a trump middle-class, upper-class, lower-class, business class big tax cut. you will have the biggest tax cut. we were set to do that. we were all set to it.

when we did the tax cuts everyone said you can't do those. we took in more income after the tax cut. the tax cut was massive. everybody was affected by it. it created jobs but almost more obviously it was a great cut. the country took in much more money. people individually paid much less tax but we did much more revenue. it really does work. the biden economic us to be replaced with a brand-new trump economic boom like we had. we had the greatest economy in the history of our country. host: that was the former president speaking about tax cuts. we are hearing from you about class in america and what does it take to be middle-class. diane in ann arbor, michigan. caller: i would like to say for

being middle-class it is due to a theory by the gop. deploying the theory and it sounds strange. they are giving it to destroy social mobility in america. if you look to the daily cost -- daily kos, by the gop deploys the theory to destroy social mobility. it sounds dry. if you read it, it's easy to read and it explains everything. why everything is happening the way it is. project 2025 to take over the constitution. the supreme court, how they are holding back trying to get trump in office. host: wis reason they would not want social mobility? caller: because they want a slave class. they want an underclass and they are attacking schools. they want to take away public

schools for an education, all of that. they want an underclass. that is why -- birth control, although that. they want women to have children so they can have workers. host: how are you personally doing, diane? caller: how my doing? -- how am i doing? i'm 73. i was part of that life for people had a goolife. it is my children and grandchildren. they will all have to live under this slave class. host: when you say the good life, how you define that? what are the markers? caller: you could go to college and you didn't have to put yourself in debt. even if you couldn' scholarship. what do you call it? you are gifted money to go.

grants. thank you. there were land-grant schools like michigan statemade availabt could go to the schools. it leveled the playing ground for everyone. they have a plan to rip that all apart. that is why strange things are happening and you can't figure out what. the supreme court on their rulings. trump. host: here is an article in the washington post about how americans define a middle-ass lifestyle and why they can't reach it. i would like to get the caller'' perspective on this. what it takes to be middle-class. 93% said you need a secure job to be considered middle-class. here are other markers going down the list. ability to save money for the future.

ability to afford an emergency. $1000 expense without debt. ability to pay all bills on time without worry. having health insurance. he keeps going down. the ability to have a college education. owning a home might be part of your definition of middle-class. peter in west palm beach, florida. caller: i'm a middle-class person. i'm 93 years old and i have been a union worker from the day i graduated high school. i got a job in construction with a union job. benefits cap make going all my life. i million. i have been able to save for 42 years of working. always making a decent salary. never indent. found a home all my life. has two homes after i retired. allworker.

but only a high school education. host: let me ask you about -- sorry to cut you off -- how your parents did. where they also middle-class? was it for the same reasons? caller: they were both from italy. they were raised in this country without an education. they were both political graduates. they survived bause my father was a hard-working man. i had no chance to go on to college becausthey cannot afford to send me. that was not a bad thing. i got a job. the salaries i was making as a union worker never put me in debt. i lived a very comfortable life. i was married. i had a daughter. she got a college education. if you are making a good salary most of your life you don't go into debt. you live a good life. i have been born to ci played g.

i'm still financially sound because of the money i saved working for 42 years at a good salary because i was a union worker and had all my health care. even when we got sick i was covered from my plans. covered all my medical. i never went into debt. people don't realize how good unions are in good paying jobs mean to working people. ■bi appreciate what they did for me. i love this country i hope it stays that way. until i pass away my children still have a good country. thank you. host: staying in florida, ing. caller: good morning. how are you doing? host: good. you have to put your tv down.

caller: i don't know what to say. host: you are on. go ahead. ing trouble with that one. jamie in superior, wisconsin. caller: good morning. i would like to wish good morning to a friend of mine in the u.k. who watches washington journal every now and then. good morning to my fi am calline perspective of the young adult who lives with my parents. what i define as a middle-class family. when it comes to my family, my mom works a decent job. -- we are able to eat and stuff. we kind of have this middle-class plateau.

we seldom travel. i highly doubt we could afford a higher education at the university. host: did you go to college? what is your situation with education? caller: i-6 think -- i don't hae any plans after i graduate to be honest. host: after you graduate high school? caller: yes. because of our financial situation it has been hard to even find, like, even with scholarships it is hard to find universities that would be fitting for our career paths. that is what is i define as the middle-class plateau where we can keep ourselvesselves. education and travel and that extra stuff is where it borders on more difficult. host: what is the key to

breaking through that plateau? caller: i am not completely sure. that is a question that even the people who i live with can't answer. we have tried solving that but we have not been able to figure it out. don't get me wrong. being a middle-class family we still enjoy our life. we occasionally have good times. it is education and stuff where we have financial trouble. host: thanks for calling and. -- in. tony sent a text. middle-class income does not ■íesblh a middle-class lifestyle. your lifestyle depends on too many things to defined class strictly by income. diona on facebook. she defines it as two people

with two jobs. judy from rocky top, tennessee. caller: good morning. yes. we are middle-class. definitely the union people, you don't need a college education. they have apprenticeships, medical care, retirement. my only concern is we've had a good life. we were able to save money, buy a home. my understanding is biden will raise the capital taxed up to 50%, which is 25% down. host: are you talking about capital gains? the capital gains tax on investment? caller: yeah. on homes. so, that's a big jump. for us retirees, when we plan on selling our house we want to

keep it at 25%. union is definitely the way to go. host: let's hear from white house national economic council director while brain -- lyle brainard on why the administration is looking at letting the trump era tax cuts expire. [video] >> as we all know, following the devastation we saw during the pandemic we solve major legislation. now we areing the best labor market we have seen as a country in 50 years. we are seeing gains in purchasing power and wealth of the middle-class. we have a major economic policy decision ahead. whether to return to the trickle or forge ahead with a different approach? the president's approach.

the expiration of president trump's 2017 tax package next year will put the issue of tax fairness front and center. do we what a tax system that favors the wealthy or the middle-class? tax fairness is essential to the president's approach to building an economy that works for all americans. where growth is broadly shared and everyonejd has a fair shot. where we reduce fiscal risks and keep our commitments to seniors. this week the congressional budget office confirmed the full extension of trump's tax package would add $5 trillion for national debt over the next decade while disproportionately benefiting the ultra-wealthy. it is clear we need to endultrak costly permanent corporate tax

breaks. host: what does it take to be middle-class in america? stephen on facebookays, "it differs with each administration and the current state of the economy at that time. at this current time what i takes to be middle-class working at leastobs and spending your money on things you ably need and nothing more. thle-class should mean not beingich and living like something you are not, but also being broke and only paying bills while being in constant debt." larry is calling from memphis, tennessee. caller: good morning. i think to be middle-classb witd union. i make over $27 an hour. i can be middle-class. about the republican party, they are everything a poor person needs to be middle-class. they are against unions, the minimum wage, free college.

once a person gets poor they with the cut out food stamps. they don't want to fund programs. they want to cut the head start program. if you want to be middle-class and vote for republicans, you will never get there. host: larry was in memphis. this is on cnbc. they have the states broken down by the middle-class income range. tennessee would be between $42,000 and $128,000 to be considered middle-class. albert in gulfport, mississippi. hello. caller: on the last of the baby boomers, the last great middle-class. my kids and grandkids fall under the working poor.

the reason most people are having trouble is that their rent is going up. you go to an apartment and it cost you $900. a few months later, it is $1200. your iom not risen. that is putting a lot of people under stress to keep them from moving up. every time they get an increase in pay it is pennies. a 25% -- a $.25 increase in pay but your wrinkles of $25. -- rt you are forced to go homeless. that is why people cannot move up and move out of poverty. host: in the case of your kids, i'm assuming they are still able

to pay their rent? caller: yeah. they are, but they are working side jobs. anything they can do to stay ahead. host: you used the term the working poor. how would you define that as opposed to middle-class? where is the line for y at obame when it came out and medicate extensions -- medicaid extensions. anyone making $14,000 or less, you are eligible for medicaid. anybody that is working at $31,000, a family of they were eligible for medicare -- medicaid expansion. you tell me the bottom line for the working poor starts at

$31,000. that does not leave much room. with the increase in rent and food and everything goingf> up t nothing ever comes down. host: let's talk to steve next in worcester, massachusetts. thank you for taking my call. i believe that property is the basis of the middle-class in america, particularly homeownership. one of the foundations of this country was life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. it's basis is john locke's notion of life, liberty and that phrase was found in george washington's diary. it is found in the 14th amendment. it's also found in the declaration of the colonies two years prior to 1776.

jimmy carter in the 1970's had the community reinvestment act which would be the basis for property for all people. it was essentially a government program. bill clinton, he fortified the notion of the subprime mortgages. mortgages for everybody, which led to the great recession of 2008, the mortgage crisis. we have today the tuition crisis. i believe more corporate jobs in america and good jobs for people. it's a fine line between the republicans and democrats. we always good for people. it is just how we get there. webster is an old working town. we have mills. if he stayed out of the my father had to drop out of high school at age 16 to support a family of 12. polish immigrants.

i ended up going to boston college. we saved and scrimped, etc. i believe in property. i have a home and it's nice. i have two kids. i put them through college but one is driving the truck and the others working for when donation. it is tough today -- window nation. it is tough today. host: i wonder if you think a college education is necessary to be in the middle-class america today. caller: it's funny. back when i went to grammar school you had divisions of where they think you are going. our guidance counselor said college is not for everybody. i agree with that. somebody being a master electrician today can make -- and electrician in general can make more money than somebody coming out of college today. i see that with my kids.

is rough. my younger boy went to art school. photography. now he has a cdl and is driving a truck. he is union. i was in the teamsters, and autoworker for a while. i was a democrat. now i vote republican. you look at trump. he's worth about $1 billion a year. he has a payroll of about $600 million. he has provided jobs for 22,000 people. you may hate the guy but the notion of work is what makes a strong. yes, there are people that need help, need welfare. we can't make a state solution. i had a friend who did social work. he says it goes from generation to generation. we need to create jobs. we need to decouple from china and pivot towards india who's a democracy.

we cannot deal with communists. host: got it. you mentioned clinical parties. here are more results from that gallup poll about middle-class and political parties. until022, republicans were more likely than democrats to identify as upper middle or middle class. less likely to identify as working lowss. however, in the past two readings the trend has veed with democrats more likely than republicans to id as upper middle or middle class. meanwhile, republicans now lead in combined idention as working or lower class. a slim majority of republicans consider themselves upper middle or middle class. 46% as working or lower class. we are taking your calls this morning on that. our lines are split up by how

you identify in your social class. if you consider yourself a low middle-class, (202) 748-8000. if you consider yourself middle-class, (202) 748-8001. if you consider yourself above middle-class, (202) 748-8002. -- (202) 748-8003. trina in north carolina. caller: yes. thank you for taking my iwhen you opened up you were saying about cutting -- increasing corporate tax xes. if we don't cut corporate tax,

our businesses go overseas. we cut corporate tax it brings jobs back to america. if we keep trump's tax cuts on the american people than they have the money to go to these businesses to■úer shop. so then all of america works. we get them to the upper class. host: according to this, north carolina, income ranges between 44 thousand dollars and $132,000 -- $44,000. how you think you can get to that $44,000 per year or are you way below that?

do you feel like that is attainable for you? host: i am way below that because i'm retired now. host: you are getting social security? caller: correct. host: you have health care through medicare? caller: yes. and then biden cut the medicaid. now i'm getting way down. host: do you feel like you are able to pay al or are you in de? caller: i am struggling paying bills on time. because of the medicaid cut i'm having to now pay for my prescriptions and for groceries and i am going to food banks and, you know, eating less.

i have lost 90 pound my health is getting poor. host: we will go to jesup, georgia. kel. caller: how are you doing? i think what it takes to acquire a middle-class status, it takes two objectives. one is an educational objective, and secondly to have an information objective. once those are attained you have to have some kind of middle-class like there was mention of homeownership. there was mention of foreign retention. now in certain cases you can but very seldom to acquire a

certain state of the middle-class and then isolate yourself and relate to your class as lower class, you can't do that. you have to build a status where you increase and improved from a middle-class state to an upper-class state or an offer echelon -- up or echelon. -- upper echelon. host: howre you doing with that? caller: with an inflationary measure and with a -- how can i say it? a plan objective. you have to have a marketable objective, just like in the economy or like the s-curve or engineering. however, in the bear market you

have persons who may identify you with not being as a social middle-class based on race alone. that is why it's so important. i don't want+ a president biden but the administration is not toward ethnic diversity. host:ok at the election. here is bloomberg. voters prefer trump over biden on economy. the data shows what. bidenf delivered the strongest job market in tickets but inflation slowed against in living standards. it says that americans give donald trump the edge over joe biden on the economy in poll after poll even as the biden

years have been the best times to find work since the 1960's and the u.s. has bounced back from the pandemic with stronger growth than international peers like t eand japan, and stronger growth overall that under president trump. voters this year are focused on the post-pandemic surge in inflation. it says according to a poll respondents said 51% to 32% they were doing better financially under trump then biden. at a 15 economic issues the cost of everyday goods was far and away the top concern of registered voters in the poll. alex is next, washington, d.c. caller: good morning. a few things. i like that you opened up with the presumptive presidential candidates talking about taxes.

i think a lot of republican and conservatives, one of their bigo be the national debt. the tax cuts and jobs act of 2017, the trump tax cut is adding at least $1 trillion -- i have the tax policy center up. the deficits added are adding one trillion tellers to $2 trillion to the national debt by 2025. the tax cuts might have cut taxes for the middle class folks in the short run but the addition to the deficit, the resulting addition to the debt is contribute into inflation that we are seeing now that people are blaming biden for. i hope that biden starts at talk more about how much trump did in fact add to the national deb and he's now blaming the resulting inflation on biden.

that doesn't make any sense. i myself consider myself middle-class. i have a full-time job. i have a masters degree. i make about $80,000 a year. capital, when you say middle-class is for a single person the lower end of that, it was at $40,000. host: yup. caller: if you're making between $30,000 and $40,000 year in the dmz, you report. that has to do with the cost of living in the country. i don't think i know people that could be calling themselves middle-class anti-making $35,000 a year -- and making the $5,000 a year.

host: i don't have d.c. but i have virginia. middle-class income range would be $58,000 to $174,000. what do you think of living at $58,000? does that still work? caller: when i first started working -- i'm 28 now. i entered the workforce at 24. i started working for p schools in the area. i was making $65,000 a year. not too r off from tt. i will say if i did not have the support from my parents at that time and they were able to help me with my car payments and help me with my -- i still have student -- i got a lot of scholarships and i did not have to take out too many loans. thank god biden for gave a lot of my loan payments to the pandemic. making close to that amount of money that you mentioned, i was not able to save much money at

all throughout that time. now i'm making closer to $80,000 i'm able to save a little bit. i would consider myself in this area making the money i make lower end of that middle class for sure. host: do you think your situation will be better or worse than your parents? as far as social class? caller: worse for sure. my parents havei grew up in a house they owned. now they live in a retirement community. they are able to travel now. growing up we went on vacation maybe once or twice, every other year. even then we were doing it on a budget. i don't know if thbeing frugal. host: you don't think he will be able to do that? you think you will be worth less? caller: definitely.

absolutely. i don't see how i would be able to save enough money to put a down payment on a house or condo or anything in this area. i grew up in new jersey. even if i moved back home i there. eror that. in terms of education, i have cut the idea of children out of the equation. i don't see how i would be able to raise kids come to believe and not worry about how we are going to put food on the table. there are a lot of things about life i have kind of counted out because of the way -- my rchost: lithonia, georgia. ramona. caller: can you hear me?

host: go ahead. caller: i wanted to ask, way to get the information about -- the democrats are for the rich people. host: i'm sorry. the gop are for the rich and the democrats are for the poor? caller: no. you said the gop are now for the poor the democrats went to the rich. the roles got twisted and turned now. host: i think what you are talking about is poll. if you go to news.gallup.com. this is the result of that poll. they came out about a week or so ago.

it talks about partisan class identification has shifted in recent years. this is what we pulled from what i just read about republicans more likely than democrats to identify as upper middle or middle class. that was until 2022. that has shifted. you can read that there. did you have a comment about that? the gop identified with the lower class?ce host: correct. as far as identifying themselves, right? it says not democrats are more likely than republicans to identify as upper middle or middle class. republicans now lead in combined identification as working or lower class. caller: ok. what i see is what you are doing

this morning is you are trying to make it where trump is actually -- comparing trump with biden. you are not stating factual qq-stuff. you are stating stuff that is hypothetical, with sources that are not credible. speak facts. host: tell me about how you identify. you are calling on the below middle-class. caller: exactly. i have 22 grandkids. about five of them are independent. grandkids are not having children ca afford it. it's a big change now as far as family demographics.

the women are not having kids because they cannot keep them. they can't take care of them. that goes into play with the birth control. that is why they are coming up to vote, birth control. that's a fact. i understand bashing trump, but that is who he is. host: we will go to central new york. anthony. good morning. caller: how are you? host: good. caller: i think the brookings back in march of 2013 published an article about -- they are more left-leaning and i more right-leaning -- about what it takes to be middle-class. we are looking for lack of

education, sexism, racism, whatever. if you do three things you end up middle-class or above. the first one was graduate high school. getting a full-time job. don't have kids until you're over 21 and married. 97% of people, if they do that in america they end up middle-class or above. that was 11 years ago so it may not be true . sometimes it is hard for people to do that. they fall into a trap where they don't graduate high school or have kids before they are ready or they are under 21. if you are under 21 you are still a kid yourself. host: going back to the education, do you think that is still the case? necessary?lege degree is not

caller: i don't think a college degree is necessary. i don't think college is for everyone. there is something to be said about, you know, i don't say blue-collar jobs -- want to say blue-collar jobs. he has examined from massachusetts talking about there are master electrician to make a good living. there are plumbers, carpenters, mechanics. host: what are your thoughts on homeownership as being a marker for being in the middle class? caller: is one of the milestones. it depends on where you live. if you choose to live in manhattan, homeownership might be out of reach. if you choose to live elsewhere i think it is a marker but i don't think it is the only one. i think part of theku problem --

i'm first generation american. i was one of the first to go to college in my family. college was much more affordable than. there was a lot more merit-based scholarships. i have a child who just started college. had very good grades and test scores and things but because i make a little too much, you know, there was no money to be had. she is still going to a good school but it is not the same thing. went. my dad was a bus driver and bus dispatcher. when i went to college i had a half tuition scholarship and it made it much more affordable. colleges were so much more affordable than. host: this is sheri on facebook. if you have what you need and can afford some of wt u

want, you are middlcls. i don't know what the numbers sa people need to stop worshiping the dollar and look at what really matters. jeff in los angeles, good morning. caller: i'm in los angeles visiting my sister but i live four blocks from san isidro, california, the border. tijuana. four blocks as the crow flies with hundreds of thousands of americans from the southland, manley san diego, -- mainly san diego, who are migrating to mexico because they cannot afford to live in san diego. it is the number one story there on the news. i listened to your phone calls. i have not listened to c-span in seven years and i'm so excited. since covid, something has happened.

there is no border guards between fentanyl and the migrant problem. there was 45 minute lines to get from tijuana over the border for people that work and go to school when i moved seven years ago to tijuana because i love mexico and its inexpensive. there living middle-class, highly paid and living in cars all over san diego. they are finally -- the city government and county government people can sleep in campers or just cars. they go up to people who are 60 years old, their rent went up $300 to $400 like the man he was speaking when i first called. the next caller talked about what the republicans are going to do when people are not on section eight or getting food

stamps. the homeless problem is a middle-class problem, not just people that are drug addicted or mentally ill. host: the people you referred , do they have full-time jobs? caller: full-time jobs. they go to work in the morning. the kids go to school. most live in rvs. this iswhen i first moved here a 45 minute drive in the morning for people in tijuana to work. they go to work and school back and forth. they have families on both sides of the border. i love it here. it is real life. now people get up at 4:00 in the morning, they go four or five hours each way to get over the border to go to work. all the people that work at the fancy hotels like the coronado, they don't live in san diego. they are mexican migrant workers . they either walk over the pedestrian -- the big bridges

like you see in el paso -- or they drive. they are checking for fentanyl and illegal migrants. the border patrol people are committing suicide. they all took early retirement at covid. they were 40 or 50. the biggest problem with migration is we need workers just like air controllers. i'm telling you, what the republicans are going to do -- listen to robert de niro. out on the most important opportunity. i'm in my mid-70's. the problems that we have now, we had problems in the 1920's that roosevelt had to take care of. talking to the middle class that we have lost. many people like joe manchin and the pennsylvania senator, the middle class. we nee g out and talk about what we are going to do with infrastructure andow did you notice all those people

that died on the bridge in baltimore were migrants? we need to teach young people how to do things in this country that mexicans know how to do. they know what drywall is. we need legal migration. we need people because people are not having babies like they said. they are having dogs and cats. they can't afford children. this country is in terrible -- has a terrible problem and trump is right about one thing. nato needs to pay their fair share. host: we are getting off the subject. stephen is in pennsylvania. what you think? caller: good morning. host: good morning. caller: i have an issue with the term middle-class. i really don't know what that is. there is lower-class, and when you go to middle-class you have upper middle, lower middle-class. then when you hirenr than avera.

like you said before, the idea of middle-class is $44,000 to $140,000. i think that is what you said before. host: that is for a single individual, $30,000 to $90,000. for a couple it is $42,000 to $147,000. that's from 2020. caller: they don't have all of the after covid numbers. host: correct. it fluctuates by state. ,ñ cost-of-living, salaries are different, that kind of thing. caller: true. host: that is why we are asking the question. what you think i should be? -- where do you think there should be? caller: i like the one facebook post you read. i do believe that has a lot

to do with it. it is the way people feel. if you are making $50,000 and you are a single person and you have everything you want, some of which you need, you feel like you are probably middle-class. host: all right. jimmy in washington, d.c. caller: can you hear me? host: go right ahead. caller: thanks for having me ■k. i challenge the assumption there is a clear delineation. i dropped out of school when i was a kid. five it's 11 -- like the gentleman who was a union bank and they saved and i dropped out of school which was a bad idea but you do what you have to do. i got married. i did not have kids. that has sort of been really important. i was able to secure a really great job in■i the public sector

with great benefits. we have climbed our way out of the working-class poor up to upper middle-class lifestyle. frankly i think a lot of this is personal initiative. it's unpopular to say bootstraps but i started off doing unpalatable and undesirable things. i had no high school diploma. i looked around. my coworkers were literally on their way to jail or they had more kids than they could support. they had drug habits. i'm like i can't do this. i don't to be here any longer that i have got to be. i invested in myself. again, people love to slam the phrase bootstraps but sometimes you have to bite the bullet and do what you gotta do to pull yourself up and out of the hole. host: do you think if you had

kids you would still be in this situation? caller: no, we cannot afford to have kids. there was a u.s. fda statistic, the price of having kids. the cost of having kids is not just tuition and food, stuff like that. it is added transportation, added health-care expenses, added real estate. host: childcare. caller: insurance for your kid. it's a lot more expensive to pay for a kid than to live with -- as a single person ordinary person. my wife and i experienced poverty growing up. we did not have to have a discussion. we just knew we did not want to put a kid through that. like a gentleman who mentioned the brookings institute, graduate college, don't do drugs, don't have kids you can't afford until you're over 21. this is really sound advice. my grandparents,heeople.

they pulled themselves up. site direction unfortunately -- went the opposite direction unfortunately. sometimes you have to bite the bullet and do unpleasant things like manual labor or put money away and scrimp and save when you don't want to. when you see advertisements on tv they are beckoning you to spend money. we spent a lot less that we could afford. that propelled us into the upper class. host: let's take a look at trump's -- former president trump's economic advisor stephen moore. he talked about inflation and he says biden's policies effort the middle-class families. [video] >> the bottom line people have to understand is when trump was president the median family income -- i'm talking about people in the exact middle, they

saw us $6,200 gain in income. that's a big gain. maybe the biggest ever under any president. biden, in his first three years in office, the average family has lost $2000 because of high inflation. people say why are people angry. the average family in america today is poorer than they were three and half years ago. the first campaign i paid attention to -- attention to was when ronald reagan ran against jimmy carter. at the end of the debate jimmy carter and ronald reagan had, rag and lookeinpeople, are you n you were four years ago? at that time americans said we are worse off and reagan won the election. i think it's the exact same question donald trump brought to

the american people when they debate in june and fall. are you better off financially than you were four years ago? for the vast majority the answer is no. host: lance from fort lauderdale, florida. caller: good morning. how are you doing thisi'm in a . i agree with shery, it is how you look at it. i was raised middle-class. my parents owned a home and raised three of us. how the three of us, one of us becameh. one of us became upper-middle-class. he was a nurse. then there was myself. i lived middle-class and raised two kids of my own on less than $30,000 in the 1980's. people asked me how i did it. it was easy. i bought nothing new. i bought close a goodwill and i taught my kids the value of work.

now they are both middle-class. my daughter is married and they own a house. my son is aechanic and does very well. i live on disability, yet by the government's standards i live below the poverty line. in reality i consider myself middle-class. i have a nice clean apartment to live in. my medical is paid for. i get assistance on food. the real difference is that it took me 15 years to finally get it. i got a section eight voucher. biggest expense most people face a i me, because my friend is considerately lower -- rent is considered below are than most people. i live a $950 a month. i don't go to shows. i don't go to movies but i live well. i eat.

my medical is taken care of. host:■i i'm curious about what u said about your parents and your brothers. what do you think was the difference between you and your brothers, that one would be rich and the other one is upper-middle-class? caller: the biggest difference, strangely, my older brother who this, we both had a better than my brother who was upper-middle-class with the nurse. we saw this when he got sick, because of the money he made he had to pay for all his medications. it drove him broke. host: but why is he rich and you are not? why did he turn out rich and you not? caller: he was an innovator. he was one of the people that helped develop the video synthesizer that we see everyday on tv when you watch it. he was always a guy who had ideas. he did not finish college. he went into business and made a life for himself.

he does very well now that he's retired. host: one more call. perry in norcross, georgia. caller: number one, when you hear somebody talking about paying the rent you know they are not middle-class. in this country right now we have private capital owning more than 50% of single-family homes. i grew up in a middle-class family. my father was making about $30,000 a year in 1960. he sold and served pension plans. he graduated from brown university. these were professional people. but today, i have three g!ó■rown

kids and i think the third one is in her 40's already. you ve to make $100,000 a year at minimum to consider yourself middle-class and to own a home. i live in a house that i have owned. i used it basically to put my kids through college and stuff like that and to marry. when you have girls, they get married and that costs. right now i am on social security and between myself and my wife on social security we do about $40,000 a year. it is all i can do to maintain a house. host: we are out of time for this segment. fo securing doc david salvo then

and what we can do about it. we will be right back. >> the house will be in order. >> c-span celebrates 45 years of covering promise like no other. since 1979, we have been your primary source for capitol hill, providing balance, unfiltered coverage of government, taking you to where policies are debated and decided, all in support of america's cable companies. c-span, 45 years and counting, powered by cable.

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mobile app or wherever you get your podcasts. c-span, your unfiltered view of politics. >> if you miss any coverage, you n find it online at c-span.org, videos of key hearings, debates and other events featuring markers that guide you to news where the highlights. these points of interest markers appear on the right-hand side of your screen when you hit play on select videos. this makes it easy to quickly get an idea of what was debated and decided in washington. roll through c-span's points of interest. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. we are talking about foreign interference in campaign 2024 with the managing director of the alliance for securing democracy david salvo.

talk about how it is funded. guest: it is an initiative supported predominantly byprivae in the united states, family foundations and like. we receive small grants from some democratic governments for one-off projects. we receive a tiny bit of money from microsoft back in the day but predominantly funded by private philanthropists. host: one we talk about foreign interference in our elections, which countries are we talking about, not just with the intention but the capability to interfere in elections? guest: we are predominately talking about russia, china, and iran and that is the intelligence committee and the bipartisan consensus of government. we forget about with all the

noise that democrats and republicans believe there is a foreign threat to how americans view political issues and how they vote and russia, china and iran are the three primary threat factors that we face. host: why would they doour moti? guest's talk about russia, democrats and republicans would believe. i watch the intelligence hearings a couple weeks ago and it was a bipartisan consensus that russia is our primary threat in the 2024 election. her overarching interest is to foment further instability and chaos in the united states. it is not specifically about ngne particular candidate. sure, it is clear that vladimir putin has a preference for donald trump's presidency over joe biden. that is not my opinion, he has said that but the russian were on ukraine relies on american

support. he is banking o that if there is a change. there is the goal is if american democracy is in order that only plays to the advantage of an authoritarian regime like russia. there are geopolitical reasons why that is advantageous to russia. the russia perspective. we could get into china and iran but the kremlin really is the primary adversary. host: they are the primary adversary why, is the capability much better than china? guest: capability is better and tactics refined and they have been doing this for a long time. whereas china is a recen■t playr and they have not attempted interference operations on an election to the same extent russia has. in the 2020 election, the

intelligence committee concluded that china thought about but ultimatelyany sort of interferee campaign, using cyber tactics, disinformation, money. they focus on the micro level, so specific candidates and races. can they shape of the chinese american diaspora thinks about american issues? can they target politicians they think would be sympathetic to the chinese communist party's world on issues like taiwan. they are looking much more democratic disorder perspective that russia does. host: is that still the case for this year? guest: it is largely the case. china has refined tactics in places like canada and australia where they have infiltrated the diaspora of conversations online and chat groups to try to message to them about which

candidate they should support and how they should think about certain issues. they are doing this covertly. they are not doing it under the banner of the chinese communist party but they are doing it covertly. they are trying to target specific areas of the sector. it is more like how russia purchased the campaigns. host: what other tactics being used? is it about a cyber attack, disinformation? how do they go about doing it? guest: it is all of the above. russia is using cyber tools to try to give americans the impression that they can have confidence in the integrity of the vote. back in 2016 even, russian state sponsored actors probed the voting infrastructure i believe in all 50 states. it doesn't mean they changed vote or work successful but even

giving the impression that they are able to penetrate information, voting systems online, voter rolls, registration databases, that creates doubts in americans minds that a foreign actor can perhaps manipulate the result of the vote. that did not happen but it is the impression of using cyber tools to undermine confidence in the the same motivation driving information operations. if you go back to 2016, yes, even then kremlin preference was almost undoubtedly that donald trump won the election. but they were waging campaigns online, pitting americans against each other on both sides of issues. they were buying ads on facebook in support of black lives matter. they were also doing that on blue lives matter accounts. they were simply trying to

instigate more chaos, strife between americans than there already is an even get americans out on the street protesting against one another. ■■ore insidious goals that russia has tried to create greater institutional and societal instability in the united states. host: you wrote the u.s. is a soft target for foreign emissaries. how? guest: by nature of our open transparent system. we are an open government information state and there are simply more vectors for state-sponsored actors like russia with billions of dollars in resources to use a very small amount of amplify disorder in or country. we are softest by virtue of the fact of our values, our openness and transpency in free information and freedom of the press. that is great and doesn't mean

we should change that. that was not the point of calling us a soft target. it means we have vulnerabilities in democracies that authoritarian regimes want to exploit. this isn't new. this goes back to the soviet times. the soviet union was using similar tactics in press. the tactics aren't new. the technology has evolved to allow these operations to happen at warp speed in real time. that is the main difference over the decades. host: if you want to ask a question, you can call us. the lines are by party about foreign interference in the campaign 2024. democrats (202) 748-8000, republicans (202) 748-8001, an independents (202) 748-8002. earlier this month the senate intelligence committee meeting you mentioned, senator marco

rubio asked the director of national intelligence who is responsible for responding to foreign interference. here it is. [video clip] >> the kitty -- the video, you may not be able entity bay was designed by some guy in a basement or by a nationstate. at a minimum we have to say, this thing is not real and it could be the work of a foreign adversary. who would be -- would you be the one to stand up? is it the fbi? who will stand before the american people and say we are not interfering in the election and want to know the video is not real. who would bethat? >> i could be the person who makes that deti will give you a, there was an article today about the fact that there is a fake video that was basical"%ly promoted and it is a russian

affiliated group and that video purports to show a whistleblower in a former ukrainian employee of a madecia supported troll farm tasked with interfering in the upcoming presidential election. the cia came out with a statement that basically indicates and is reflected in the article that this is fake and i am here to say categorically that this claim is false and there is no such thing. it is disinformation and that is the kind of approach we continue to take across the board. >> you said you could be the one. i don't want there to be any gray area, someone needs to be in charge of interfacing the american people and say we will be responsible for notifying the american people. has that been established?!y >> the only hesitation you hear for me as there may be certain circumstances where a state or local official or other public

authority is in a better position to make a public statement initially and for the rest of us to come back behind. it is a question going through the process in determining what exactly is the issue being raised, what is the information being put forward, who is going to be the best official to immediately come out. that is through the notification framework. host: what do you think of that? guest: i appreciate senator rubio's question. i think it is the right one. right now i don't think the american public understands who is communicating to the american people about foreign threats to the election and it 1 -- and in what circumstances that would happen. i also appreciate the response because there is no one-size-fits-all answer. there could be a foreign threat to the election and in that case may she, herself, would come up

in the notification protocol she mentioned and would declassify intelligence and that would get paid -- conveyed to the public. also maybe in the intelligence community they are not the right ones and a state or local official may be in the best position. this is both a blessing and curse of the american electoral system. we have thousand electoral jurisdictions and an adversary like russia can target these specific jurisdictions. it did in 2016 even. it may be that she is not the right person to go to maricopa county arizona and message to arizonans about interference in the election. it may be a local election official in arizona. i appreciate senator rubio's question because he wants to identify who is that spokesperson for the american people and the answernds.

and that is not a satisfying answer. i think in instances it will be her that says we have received information about another nation state actor targeting the american elections but also has to be careful to not be perceived as tipping the scales. there are all of these decisions inside of the intelligence community and administration to ensure itce and make sure the right messenger is getting out in front of the american people. i am not sure we are fully aware of what that looks like yet. host: there is an article from a publication called the record about the director of national intelligence appoints new security leader of the presidential race. this was from earlier this year. it is a director of the foreign maligned influence center.

her name is jessica brandt. i believe you know her. can you tell us about her background and what she will be expected to do? guest: you couldn't ask for a better leader. she is a true expert in this field and has been studying these issues since they came onto the american consciousness several years ago. the center is designed to collate intelligence across the intelligence community on diverse threats facing our elections and our democracy. this is the typef threat that transcends any one agency's jurisdiction. you have financial threats, cyber threats, information threats, different agencies handle differente system -- ecosystem and that will bring all the intelligence into one place and make sure policymakers

had the best intelligence at their disposal when they are evaluating what russia, china, iran is it doing to try to influence surreptitiously american voters ahead of the election or just to try to destabilize american democracy more broadly. that is the goal of the center and she is leading. host: we haven't talked about artificial intelligence which will play a huge role and is already playing a role with deepfakes and others. what do you do about that when an average voter can't tell if the video israel real of the audio is real? -- the video is real or the audio is real? guest: we have already seen this. with robo calls in new hampshire, a voice to be president biden. this era is upon us and will make it easier for adversaries

of all sorts to be able to manipulate information, manipulate content, to try to mislead the average american voter. there are some mechanisms in place, social media platforms have that they can try to detect what is manipulated content from what is fake. we are running a project to try to digitally watermarked content so that -- have a repository for content so voters can understand, this piece of content was originated on this date and has a stamp of approval . anything that derives from it is clearly manipulated. there are a lot of approaches being taken in the private sector and in positions like mind to address the issue but we are doing this in real time as the technology is rapidly unfolding. host: will talk to john in sarasota, florida.

caller: hello. i am glad i am the first the uns america has interfered with more elections around the world than any other country. we are in everybody's elections. do you follow that also? guest: we don't follow that right now. i would agree with the caller to a point. i would say the united states has perhaps a history of meddling in other countries elections, particularly during the cold war. i think we learned from that. i don't think we do that activity the way we did in the 1960's and 1970's and for good reason. mostly because we are notkfiresn we do it. it is antithetical to who we are and our values. we have learned that the hard way and we have been as a nation willing to have a national mea

culpa. it was not in our geopolitical interest, dei draw a really fine between what we did then and what of the orient retouch -- regimes are doing to us now. we are not engaging in the same sort of activity that russia, iran and other authoritarian regimes are doing to us and other democracies right here in 2024. host: when you mentioned the foreign interference like slovakia, was it successful? did it give what they were looking for? guest: it is hard to measure impact in ese types. it is hard to know whether that deep fake video waselection unh. but it is the cascade effect. there is more of this manipulated content in the sphere, at some point will

voters just determine, we can't trust anything at all that we are reading and seeing and what are the effects of that? we are too early in this phenomenon to be able to measure tangibly what impact there is but from a russian state perspective, it doesn't matter whether the deepfake video actually swung the election because we are still dealing with the fallout of their operation in 2016. we have greater disorder, politicization, strife between americans now than we did eight years ago in the run-up to the 2016 election. part of that is directly attributed■r to russia's ability to amplify greater divisions between americans. that is the overarching objective. host: gym in bakersfield, california says what is the russian troll farm in st. petersburg? are they trying to get trump elected? guest: the internet research

ch was the original has been rebranded and reconstituted. objective amplify american strife, chaos, disorder. that is ultimately the overarching objective. the secondary objective is to provide support for trump-friendly issues and trump itself. this isn't me saying that if donald trump wins it is because it of a troll farm in st. petersburg i want to be clear aboutt when the russian federatn says i have a clear preference in the american election and that is donald trump. there it is a gd reason because he is banking that trump would change the ukraine policy. the russian state will move in

reaction to that. sia are going the social media platform landscape and try to groups that are friendlier to those issues, to donald trump himself. that is not to say that donald trump, if he wins it is because of russia. it is just a fact and the intention of the russian state. host: let's go toia on the repu, john. caller: good morning. thank you so much. i have been watching c-span religiously for months now and the russian threat and cyber threat in general and there have

been presentations from the senate and the house,mós■■ it is overwhelming information. my question is is there anything being done right now to provide a backup system, say for example there is a commercial electrical power outage of a cyber cause that local election offices have a backup system, like the old ballot box to cover it? because the idea of postponing the election is something that putin would love to see, for many reasons. guest: i would say that the overwhelming majority of election jurisdictions in the united states do have manual backups there is some sort of cyber

incidents and it doesn't even have to be a nation state. it could be anyour hard copies , manual procedures in place to tally and tabulate election ballots. our election officials on the ground are so much better prepared for events than they were even four years ago but certainly compared to eight years ago. i have the utmost confidence that our elections, no matter what incident they may face, we are going to be able to hold an election that americans can trust the results of. host: alex in minnesota, independent line. caller: thanks for taking my call. you get money from the u.s. government? guest: the german marshall fund, parts of it do get grants from the u.s. agency for development for and facing overseas.

my initiative office does not. caller: so you are supposed to be in the business of monitoring what the u.s. has information to. host: youoing in and out. are you still there? caller: do you think it is a problem if the u.s. government is funding a group that is determining what affirmation u.s. citizens get access to? guest: i think there is a ization of what we do. we don't monitor what information americans get access to. the only information we are tracking is over attributed russia, chinese, iran accounts, not covert accounts. we track and collate data. we don't suppress it or filter it. so i think there is a mischaracterization of what we do. host: long island, democrat.

good morning. caller: i was worried -- wondering about domestic interference, specifically with fox news giving misinformation constantly. for an rally, they do 10 times the amount of people there and continue to just lieion. how do you control the domestic news and do you investigate that at all or do you have some way of checking them and fact checking the domestic? guest: going back to the previous color, we do not censor

caller, we do not censor information and we are not in the business of doing that. it would be dangerous when domestic voices amplify disinformation about say the integrity of the election system. leaving aside the trump rallies that is not an issue we would pay attention to, if you go after the big allegation that the 2020 election was stolen, the fact that there are major domestic voices amplifying that narrative, that is dangerous and damaging to american democracy. host: is that one of the tactics you have seen among foreign adversaries to take domestic misinformation and then amplify it and give it a much bigger voice? guest: that is i would say the primary they are not always feeding the disinformation intoying. their goal is to move from the fringe strands of disinformation

and make it more mainstream. host: susan in stamford, connecticut, independent. caller: good morning. my name is susan and i can't even begin to tell you howh in agreement i am with david s alvo. the world needs to stop. for two weeks everybody ne calm down, tha includes dictator vladimir putin. ho chi minh, i can't remember the name of -- the head of china . states, present -- president biden won the election no matter how you slice it. as farm concerned, donald

john trump needs to go to jail. i have met the man. the most obnoxious person i have ever met in my life. everybody needs to stop and calm down for two weeks. and then begin to neat it. and that includes the head of israel. host: any responses there? guest:hat she mentions a two week cooldown period. in most democracies there is a period in the days leading up to the election media can't cover the election. it is like silence for voters to contemplate choices without the noise of media and other sources. i am not saying we should■é do

that here in the united states but that was an interesting observation. host: luis, a republican, louise, a republican, virginia. caller: i remember there were meetings in thed the house and heads of meta, og all of those, facebook, twitter, and all of them testified. what happened is there was"u not one that said that the information that russia was pushing equal up to about 100,000 out of 360 million people and they counted it that way because eight million or

something scrolled through it but they didn't stop and read the disinformation from russia. i am not a bot or stool or whatever you call them, but i have seen all i need to see to idea.that this is not a good they are going to pull the same thing they did in 2016. ■8i watch c-span 24/7 practicaly and i saw shows interfere in thn the elections in 1920 election, he said they didn't. -- you said they didn't. you talk about russia as if it is the soviet union. they offered things that people

should have been able to have autonomous regi.is there host: a way -- host: can the social media companies tell how many people consumed it? guest: there are engagement metrics. i think ultimately the number of americans that encountered either russian intelligence accounts masquerading as authentic a voices that were outright or should disinformation campaigns, millions of americans consumed it. doest mean millions of americans changed their mind because they encountered this information, but that is besides the point. the point is you have a foreign

that wants to influence how americans view certain issues. that doesn't mean the results of the election swing on that campaign but it is nefarious nonetheless that they are willing to covertly wage that campaign against us. host: democrats, illinois, good morning. caller: i should have called on open forum but the question i would have posed is how is the media influencing our elections? i know that cable tv is almost always republican leaning. i listen to them because i need to decipher the difference but it is a shame that we are being inundated all day long on all of the shows with republican perspectives. even msnbc now has republicans

as guests of the time. cnn i feel like they took over c-span so we will have republican fee here was. when you pose a question, especially with open forums, i notice you always have republican commentators, whether that be in the house of representatives, even the gentleman you had with the guy talking about trump. host: we are getting off of the subject. fred in brooksville, florida, republican. caller: talking about the interference in the election, i wanted to know, how are they going to stop that if they are not governing the media in countries. if you take anybody, if you are

not governed, anyone can do it. you have to be able to govern it somehow sohe election is right. you just can't say, ok, we are not going to do this or we are not going to control it. especially with anybody not registered to vote. the voter id cards have to be put in place. they have to be. it is no use to vote if you're not gonna require it. the last time i went to vote, some people don't even have to have a voter id card. this is crazy. host: your comment. guest: when we compare where we were eight years ago to where we are today, there are so many more capabilities even at the

state and local level that we have two spot maligned activity. if the■mre is a cyber probe froa nationstate actor in the databae online, there are digital sensors deployed that the department of homeland security has worked with state and local governments to ensure we have those detection systems in place to make sure from a cyber infrastructure perspective we are so much better protected than we have been. that also gives us confidence that whoever shows up at the polls to vote is a registered voter and the voted is being counted. host: a question, is there a concern that ordinary citizens are influenced by foreign interference or government officials? guest: if you were to ask people sitting in the kremlin whose view they want to change more,

it would be the average system because ultimately our democracy is contingent on how they are confidence they have in our own system of government. but certainly if they can shape how policymakers are viewing certain issues, let the war in ukraine, so much the better. i think they understand that is a tougher nut to crack because policymakers come in with an agenda they are trying to implement and are not susceptible to russian disinformation mostly because they are aware of what is happening. i think ultimately the nationstate adversaries want to target you and me, essentially. host: randy in broken arrow, oklahoma, democrat. caller: good morning. host: good morning. how do you determine what is

real? for instance, hillary clinton paid a foreign agent to slander donald trump. was that foreign interference and was that an american foreign country? guest: my view of the steel dossier was a russian intelligence operation, not so much that an american solicited it and it was created as such. there is a lot of disinformation on frankly has the hallmarks of a russian disinformation campaign. again, russian interference in our elections knows no political affiliation. it transcends partisan boundaries and targets democrats and publicans s. it's ultimate goal is to have us

lose confidence in our government and elections. the steel dossier is one component of a much l host: ann in new york, democrat. caller: i want to say something about voter id. we used biometrics, which is basically your physical signature that you bring proof of eligibility when you register and each time you vote you show your physical signature. we have had no problems. i think part of this deal for picture id is really a voter use it discriminates against people from financial reasons have to move a lot and the whole thing about accepting gun ownership cards but not college ids is just right for voter suppression.

i think biometricne as a voter . host: it is kind of a domestic issue. guest: i will admit that but what i will say from the foreign threat side, even back in 2016, we noticed, not wii but my organization, the u.s. government notice that russian state-sponsored actors were trying to mislead people on how to vote americans on how to vote, where to go, when to vote. that is a way to disenfranchise there are attempts to sideline american voters even from the nation state actors from going to the polls. host: i want to ask you about researchers. i will read you part of an opinionrothe washington post. he said, even if china won't try toecide the u.s. election, it disinformation to ine s.

democracy and u.s. efforts to counter chinese aggression. the u.s. to bst its own information game whilea and china spend billions to spreads, t state department's center, the primary government vehicle for fighting disinformation has budget of just $61 million. fake news is spread by prima homegrown extremists and opportunists but their message iseivi an important boost from america's adversaries as part of their effort to weaken the most powerful democrac russia was an early leader in the dfon field but china is playing catch up. the u.s. better boost its dens or else more elections will be influenced by foreign guest: i couldn't have said it better myself. in parts of the global south, latin america, africa, middle east, russian and chinese state

sponsored media is being consumed at i would say an alarming level. citinsies are getting more propaganda but they are not getting the counter aging, not getting factual information to the same extent that they are consuming state-sponsored from russia and china. these countries are seeing an enormous amount of resources into these media operations. what we spend to do over u.s. government messaging and media voice of america is peanuts, comparatively. we are being outcompeted even in our own backyard, in even outeas

being consumed. we are not competing. david salvo, thank you for coming in. in about 30 minutes we will talk about campaign 2020 four politics with the director of the university of virginia center for politics. but first, it does open forum. the lines are democrats, (202) u are a republican, and (202) 748-8002 if you are an independent. you can start calling now. ♪ >> tune into the 2024 national political convention, starting with the republican event in

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host: welcome back to "washington journal," where it is open for a couple of things for your schedule to be aware of today. this morning at 10:30, a discussionbout migration policy in the u.s. and europe with the former acting security official. you can watch the forum life at 10:30 eastern, right here on c-span and also on c-span now and online at c-span.org. next month the supreme court willisions on key cases and today ahead of those decisions, law officials will review the that could redefine presidential immunity, access to abortion services and government protection of american consumers. it is hosted by the center for american progress. watch the virtual discussion live today at 3:30 p.m. eastern,

here on c-span, c-span now, and online at c-span.org. we will get straight to your calls starting with adam in maryland, independent. caller i wish i would've gotten on with the other guy because i wanted to ask him if you would have been doing the same activities had the supreme court of missouri versus biden course not given an injunction for the government saying company that still go out and talk with the social media companies until we make the decision about whether or not what the government engages in the facts. that is all i wanted to say. host: sal in new jersey, a republican. caller: years ago, before martin luther king came on the scene,

we believed in judging people by the of the skin, not by their character. now it is the opposite. now we have ditched■( the idea. we have to get back to judging people by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin. we have to judge people by merits, qualities, abilities and not by the color of their skin. we can't judge people by where they come from. we have to judge by what they can contribute to their country and do for the country can do for the world. that is all i would like to say. host: james is calling from lawrence, massachusetts on the line for democrats. caller: i want to congratulate c-span on their journalism. i was wondering why you never asked mr. salvo and never

mentioned john podesta. you never mentioned the man who had to testify in front of congress and the man you just hadn was sham■e. i want good information and c-span in not giving good information anymore. this is ridiculous. host: alexis, wilmington, north carolina, independent lined. caller: -- line. caller: thank you for taking my call. you can wish me a happy birthday. i am 76. host: happy birthday. caller: i want to make sure people understand a series the 2024 election is.

we have a chance to keep our democracy and allow c-span to exist. "washington journal" is a very importtx medium. it can all go away because people are giving their and in a dictatorship not accepy are in line with thei the only other thing that matters is female autonomy, reproductive rights, gender equality, equal pay. we need that. much. host: arnold is in ohio on the line for republicans. caller: good morning.

i wou say earlier you had a bit about the middle class. first off, with the middle class, there was no middle class until henry ford came in and created the automobile, ok. that started the middle class off. then in world war ii, they had the industrial revolution. you had riveter rosie's because the men were at war and it gave of people that were making that. -- that kind of money. the middle class was formed by two things, the automobile,

which it seems like they are trying to, and the industrial revolution, where we created things here in america, we made thingwe don't make anyte anymore. that is my comment about the middle class. host: on the line for up democrats, youngstown, ohio, mike. are more to promote -- did more anything else.dl sending the work overseas is the worst thing that had to this country and donald trump is the biggest fraud ever. host: let's take a look at white house national security spokesman john kirby responding to reporters' questions about the israeli military operations in rafah and whether a crossed a line. [video clip] >> can you explain how the

strike in rafah has not crossed the line that the president has sat in many of you have repeated that the operations be targeted and limited. >> we still don't believe the major ground operation in rafah is warranted. we still don't want to see the israelis smash into rough with large units over large pieces of territory. we still believe that and we haven't seen that at this point but we will watch this very closely. i want to get into this answer by making it clear that regardless, every single loss of innocent life is tragic and should be prevented as much as possible. >> has the president -- >> i can't speak to what -- he has been kept apprised. >>would you not say that

area was populated? >> had they evaporated rafah proper, it is not like they are going away, it is densely populated. we don't want to see a major ground operation. we haven't seen that at this point. >> how many more charred corpsee president considers a change in policy? >> we don't want to see a single innocent life taken. i take offense to the question. no civilian casualties is the right number. this is not something we have turned a blind eye to nor has it been something we have ignored or neglected district to raise with israeli counterpart, including this weekend as a result of this strike. let them investigate and see what they come up with. host: that was john kirby from yesterday speaking about the strike in rafah.

get is davidindependent. caller: good morning. about trump and all of these trials, especialhew york. or another before that comes out, i want to say that i am trump. i don't understand how these people won't, professional run-of-the-mill politicians -- want professional, run-of-the-mill politicians. 2020 and biden was winner take it all. do would want joe and kamala, this is going to be a rigged one way or another. if they find trump guilty, then joe and kamala walk in■r

unopposed. is that what you think? i hate to tell you, i don't understand it at all. when i was a kid there was a song on the a.m. radio and it meant a lot to me and never heard the song again for decades and i went to many radio stations and broadcast rooms, more than most, and i remember singing the song out loud for a dj all the to 2012 maybe and asking them what about this so. one day after trump becomes president, he is on tv and pulls the paper out of the inside of his coat pocket and for the first time in 40 or 50 years i heard the words to that song i had been looking for. it was a jamming song and i know

in my heart that trump is the right person. god bless the united states. host: ed is calling from grand rapids, michigan, independent line. caller: i have togratulate c-span on its programming. this morning's program with the gentleman talking about the foreign involvement was what h our publication across the world of through -- they used i don't know if that t anymore. so the one thing i wanted to say is when you hear people complaining about fox and msnbc and the rest, we have to understand our news are largely entertainment as opposed to strong news.

in terms of fox and msnbc, they are strictly propaganda. they definitely have one view over another. fox news has people that will argue vociferously on the part of the liberal point of view -- not the liberal, but progressiv. classic wearables -- liberals can be understood and appreciated. the propaganda goes on. i don't have to watch sunday shows anymore and political shows. i will hear it all on c-span anyway. someone will say what they said that they agree with. we are a divided nation in the sense that probably 40% of us, 45% are for one side or the other. that is to say that 43% republican, 43% democrat. i think democrats poll more. hear as opposed to looking deeply into the issues

and trying to figure out what seems best in our opinion. maybe that is just it. we are shallow enough that we g to take whatever we are fed by fox and embassy b -- msnbc or cnn or whatever. that's the discouraging part of all this. there is good information out there. people really want to get to the foundation of things. it's possible. host: all right, ed. in other news, the associated headline.talking abo judge denies request to restrict trump statements about law enforcement in classified records case. is the case in florida. the denied prosecutors' request to bar the former president for making public statements that could endanger law enforcement agents participating in the prosecution.

judge eileen cannon. shirley in bloomington, illinois. democrat. caller: hi. i would like to make a comment about the guy -- i d' was turn e flag upside down. host: justice alito. caller: there are a lot of ways to protest when you don't like t if you're going to do that, he should pack up and go to another country. h doese not belong here if you will turn our flag upside down. i am ashamed of him for doing that. thank you. we are in open forum. the phone lines are by a party. democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002. ■you can send us a text at (202) 748-8003.

also in the news is biden-harris returned to philadelphia to launch black voter outreach amid ■effort -- type pol -- amid tight polls. this as the race to the white house is heating up with biden and harris having made multiple trips to pennsylvania this year. rodney in mmi republican. caller: good morning,imi. you are doing a great job. i had one bone to pick wthhe sas true and it was campaign literature. one john durham did the independent prosecutor report he spelled that out. our guest would go back and read the report he would by the clinton administration, by the clinton campaign in 2016 to be a

campaign document. host: rodney, i think he said it was very clearly russian disinformation. caller: but it was written by an agent that was hired by a campaign to be oppo research. you could probably do a whole session on that. i my mind. leonard downey. he was the former executive editor of the washington post. he brought der into the newsroom. -- dei into the newsroom. he said objectivity is dead. we need people with diverse viewpoints. ■we need more lgbtq people, more minorities. ife experience and opinions and write the articles however you want. ifou stuff, that is where he's going. he said we shod not be objective. there is no way to be objective. now we are■r hard-pressed to fid

a conservative or a trump supporter working for the post, the new york times, msnbc, cnn, and therenot one conservative in the whole station. 74 million people that voted for trump are now on the french. they don't exist -- fringe. they don't exist. the justice department will allow a protest in front of a supreme court justice's house. they let thest on college campus run wild. they also attract that anybody that was in washington, d.c. on january 6. you have biden visiting his daughter to influence her testimony about his son. it's even a twist of fate that hunter is on trial for anything. why is he willing to let hunter get off scott free on the gun charges and taxes? he didn't pay $2.6 million. only the judge interrupted that.

that is after 51 national intelligence officials who were brought together by anto secret, essentially came together to basically lie to the american public about the laptop in the first place. everybody knows now. i don't think it is a disputed fact that hunter biden's laop--. the chinese and the ukrainians and everybody was contacting, that is real, but officials want to protect joe and hunter. the irs whistleblowers investigating all the stuff were going to search hunter's storage room. the interviewed joe biden about where hunter's money came from, this tax money. their boss said they could not go -- the justice department would not allow them to interview joe or include joe pinion anyway. -- and anyway. they warned the bidens about the search of the storage unit.

they warned him -- host: horace in sherwood, arkansas. caller: good morning. it sounds like a lot of people know a whole lot about what's going on with the system. maybe some thakni just got a fet to say to the christian people. i read something out of the bible every morning i get up before i do anything. the word of god. i would like to ask the christians to look at chapter 23, verse 6-8. what does god say about a man like trump. host: in which book? what book of the bible are you referring to? the only bible.

proverbs. host: ok. caller: chapter 23. host: what does it say? caller: it says, "do not eat the bread of a selfish man■h or dese his delicacy, because as he things within himself so he heals. he says to you come and eat with him but it heart is not with you. after you ate his morsels you will throw it all up and waste your complement." that is what the word of god says. i know that every christian that says they are christians have read the bible. maybe they need to go back and read it again, because if trump gets elected again, trump ain'tt

have money. he's not going to try to help the poor soldiers that fought a war and lost their■e lives for their country, and then go give it to somebody that wouldn't even go fight a war. host: patrick, oregon, independent line. caller: thanks for taking my call and thanks for c-span. i want to give back tow< middle-class definitions. my wife and i basicallyd 40 years to get into the middle class with school and training and building wealth, etc. it was a long haul. a lot of delayed gratification. what i discovered entering the middle class was you become a huge conduit for money coming in and going right out. owning a home, the upkeep, utilities, insurance, buying a car, payments, insurance, gas, school.

as much money coming in is going out. that is fine, because he basically buy -- you basically buy yourself accountable lifestyle. more and more those folks are getting squeezed with increased costs and flat income. i don't want to be alarmist and say the middle class is shrinking but there's a lot of pressure being put on the middle class because of the -- it seems like the unabated increase in the cost of being middle-class and all the trappings therein. host: mike, nebraska, republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. i want to comment on one thing. they are preaching democracy, save our democracy. where did that come from?

uthey are the of hit russia. that's exactly what you are doing. why is democrats trying to destroy our country? putting trump for all these trials, it's all plant from the obama administration, by the way. ok? i don't understand the difference between changing the state laws to changing the election laws so trump don'ge i don't understand that. you are going back 6, 7 years on this stupid case. by the way, it is just not right. they are socialists. this is russia on steroids what they are doing to our country.

this is exactly what's happening in russia. i don't understand it. they are preaching democracy. is democracy leaving the president to be -- to try to off election ballots and things like that? it's wrong. that's all i have to say before i have to say before event anymore. host: that is burlington, vermont. lifer democrats. -- line for democrats. caller: i want to say i am 71 years old. i have seen many presidents, and go -- come and go. i believe president biden has class, distinction, and honor. how did we ever let trump in the front door the white house? he called our military suckers and losers. who calls a military suckers and losers? trump.

that's who calls them sif we evr trump, remember, he is not an everyday man. he's not for the everyday man. he's for the multibillionaire's. s. my mother had a house in palm beach. i have seen these people in palm beach turn their noses at anyone who does notivg$ make $2 milli$g voting for him, he is not for you unless you were in the billionaire class. i say to biden, president biden, thank you for leading our country. there is nothing but chaos with trump. i would like to enjoy the president biden but everyday the media has trump, trump, trump. i want to enjoy president biden. he's our leader. respect the president.

host: in springfield, virginia. and dependent. -- independent. caller: i'm a first time caller. i want to mention two things. for people who have ever been in a job interview or interviewing people for a job, most of the time you contact past employers to see what they thought of them. you watch and hear of what the people that worked for trump have to say about him. you are thinking of rehiring this person? there is no way you would want to hire that person. this is a common sense thing. the second common sense thing is if you knew somebody was convicted of sexual assault and may be convicted of falsifying records and other criminal

things, would you want them living next door to you? think about that. a person convicted of sexual assault and other crimes -- st sounds like we lost arthur. that ring is to the end of the segment. this is from the associated press. u.s. representative tony gonzales of texas fights off challenge from gun rights activist in gop runoff. it says he narrowly won his primary yesterday against the gun rights activist who pushed■ the border congressman into a bruising runoff that threatened to unseat the u.s. house incumbent. after the break we will talk to larry sabato, the director of the university of virginia center for politics to talk about presidential politics and which races to watch for the battle of control of congress. ♪

>> c-span has been delivering unfiltered congressional coverage for 45 years. here's a highlight from a key moment. >> to my colleagues, my friends and most especially my wife and family, i have hurt you all deeply and i beg your forgiveness. i was prepared to lead our narrow majority as speaker. i believe i had it in me to do a fine job. but i cannot do that job or be the kind of leader i would like to be under current circumstances. i must set the hope president clinton will follow. i will not stand for speaker of the house on january 6. rather i shall remain as a backbencher in this congress that i so dearly loved for

approximately six months into the 106thmy seat and asked the governor to call a special election to take my place. >> c-span. powered by cable. >> c-span now is a free mobile app featuring unfiltered view of what's happening in washington live and on-demand. keep up with theggest events with livestreamed of floor proceedings and hearings from the u.s. congress, white house events, the court, campaigns, and more from the world of politics, all at your fingertips. you can stay current with the latest episodes of washington journal and find scheduling information for c-span's tv networks and radio, plus compelling podcasts. c-span now is available at the apple store and google play. scan the qr code to download it for free today or visit c-span.org/c-spannow. c-span now, your unfiltered seat

for washington anytime, anhere. >> washington journal continues. host: welcome back to washington journal. we are joined by larry sabato, the founder and editor-in-chief sabato's crystal ball. welcome to the program. guest: thank you so much. host: there's an article in politico with dams -- dems in full-blown free got over biden. a running list of reasons biden could lose. 20 think that? -- what do you think that? guest: if you want a lot of clicks that's exactly the kind of headline and article you want to publish. most of these media organizations want clicks. look. i have been at this long time. people aren't going to believe

it but since 1960. i know i am too young looking. one thing i have learned is that mocrats panic easily. they panic several times every election campaign, whether they are winning or abusing. sometimes it's justified and other times it isn't. in this case it is too early to panic. that does not stop them. i'm not saying republicans never panic. there is something about the nature of the democratic party that causes them to panic. i know the stakes are very high. they are looking at donald trump and sang, not againng, oh no, not again. it's true because they are saying it. i hear it all the time. you can't repeat the off the record andee i do hear it constantly. it is obvious what. they believe -- the democrats

believe there is such a difference between the biden administration and the trump administration in terms of competence in the with a governance so on that it should not even be close. they see all these polls. some have trump ahead. some have them tied. den ahead. how can this be? the answer is, because that's american politics. anything can happen and they must know that after 2016. host: what do you think of president biden biden's chances of reelection? what is in your crystal ball? guest: in my crystal ball it is very cloudy, because it is still may. here's a good statistic for people. we are still months out from the actual election. some voting starts at the end of september and continues through october. it accelerates the second and third week of october and the first week of november. we are a long way out.

what about all these public opinion polls? well, on average they are having a margin of error right now of at least 4% to 5%. we have a very competitive race on our hands. we are very competitive country politically. to me that means the polls don'. if you go into the subtext of the polls you can learn about particular groups and the electorate. it may or may not be accurate because of the margin of error is so large for some of the smaller groups. you can analyze on that basis if you want. anybody who draws firm conclusions and he makes campaign strategy based on polls and may in may should not be -- in may should not be in a presidential campaign. host: what are the major issues

that will be driving the campaign 2024, whether it is now or if you can predict once voting starts? what do you think that is? we know the old phrase, it is the economy, stupid. do you think that will be the number one issue? guest: there are a lot of issues on the front burner. there are a lot of front burners. it's a big stove. you have to look at what each side is stressing. if it going to look at bidenweae which does seem to affect people's views of him to a certain degree. although trump is only three and half years younger. i say this other guy in his 70's. i'm not guilty of ageism. i'm saying as the years go by your faculties are affected. i have seen that myself. anybody would admit that if they are being honest and not trying

for bravado. age would be at the top. then you would have the economy, mainly inflation. most of the other economic measures are prey positive except for housing. housing costs are too high. the third would be the border. those are the three top ones. you can go on all you want. i'm sure some of the callers will about others issues -- other issues. formp, it is pretty clearly the way he conducted himself as president the first time, which definitely includes the insurrection of january 6. i know a lot of people react negatively to that term. if that wasn't an insurrection, than the civil war. that was a much bigger thing. i know. i get it. that would be number one in my view. number two would be whenever the results of the legal controversies he's involved in.

just this month we have got the decision on the first of trump's trials. they say they will not be another one completed before november. i listen to the legal analysts. i guess they know what they are talking about. that may be the only decision we have and it may not be a decision if it is a hung jury. a mistrial is declared. beyond the actual trial you would have -- there are so many controversies connected to donald trump. they are going to be discussed in enormous detail day by day, hour-by-hour between now and the end of the campaign. look. tthere are things we can't even guess. already we've got the results of the first trial once it occurs, which i assume will be within a few days or a week or so. then we have the debate, the

earliest debate in american history for two presidential candidates. the major party presidential candidates on june 27 carried by cnn and i seem c-span. maybe not live. you'll have to tell us if it is live or on tape. that is just june. then you have the republican convention in mid july. four days of lots of things happening. then you have the democratic -- the republican what is in milwaukee. the democratic convention used were seen at july. not quite the end of august. will be in chicago. that ought to be a red blinking light for at least those of us old enough to remember chicago in 1968. anybody who thinks that will go completely smoothly obviously did not live through 1968. there are similarities. more differences but you will ok at that. i'm not even at labor day and

the traditional kickoff point. the next time you hear a ponded or a pundit panel -- pundit■tver a pundit panel or an anchor say this will determine the election and here are the top two issues that this will make all the difference in the world -- i forgot to mention abortion. talking to not mention reproductive rights as a weakness for donald trump and the republicans? i should have added that to the list. anodwhole score at the end of ms dead wrong. i would caution people not to be so definitive. i heard so many people do it and write it -- attention new york times. host: let's go back to the hush money trial. we are expecting to get a verdict possibly this week. can the trial itself -- has the trial itself changed polls and

opinions? do you think a verdict would? what kind of information were, that has not already come out that my sway voters? guest: you are going to have competing reactions. guilty verdict or a hung jury, democrats will be outraged and both announced donald trump and say it is justwould have happend three or four trials before election day. particularly the january 6one. may the classified documents, too . they will use that information all the way to november. i think i guilty verdict would cut a point or two off trump. if he found innocent, which i think is the least likely but it, that would pump trump up. a hung jury. n imagine the trump campaign and supporters seeing that as a

victory given the trials being held in heavily democratic manhattan. i will predict one thing. i may be dead wrong. i hope people re-show this if it's wrong. maybe in a month, month and a half, two months, i will bet you most of the effect from the trial, whether it pushes trump up or down, it disappears. the reason i say that is because that has been the norm for donald trump. especially in our highly partisan era where democrats stay with democrats and republicans stay with republicans. relatively handful of real independents, not the 44% gallup tells us, because being an independent is a social plus. i'm independent. i will not be pushed into a corner by any of those parties. the truth is they must always vote for one party or the other.

they are hidden pthey are reallf the people that are movable. there's a larger percentage in terms of voting. are they going to vote or not? if they vote, will they vote for one of the two major party candidates or vote for one of the independents for third-ythe. nobody can have the answer to this. i hear people saying rf cable heard ts one -- rfk will heard this one or that one. they don't have a clue who rfk will hurt if he hurts either one of them. host: there's another trial set to begin in hunter biden's ms charges. that is set to begin monday. what do you think about that? any impact to the biden campaign? guest: what it will do is stir republicans. they are really focused on hunter biden. they are going to be outraged at whatever it is that's uncovered

in the trial. if he's guilty, they will have material for the campaign. if he's innocent, they will talk about it's a fix by the biden administration. the justice department did this. there is no evidence of that but nonetheless that is what will be said about it. it will star the republican base. it will probably increase a little bit republican outrage. maybe a lot. that will be a plus for trump and therefore a minus for biden. is that going to dominate the headlines? it will be one of the stories but last i checked donald trump and joe biden are the two major ndes running for president. hunter biden is not in it. the children of donald trump are not in it. they are bit players compared to the two major party nominees. one other point. you have been around longer have to see this.

every president, every president -- i remember eisenhower. i was born under truman. everyone has had a relative or two or 10 who were problematic. they got into legal trouble or whatever it may be. i can't remember one of those relatives who actually cost the incumbent president much. in election, no. th is way down the list compared to the ones i discussed at the beginning of this broadcast. host: if you would like to call and ask questions to larry sabato, director of the center for politics at the university of virginia, you can do so. democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002. you mentioned, larry, the first

debate happening in about a month. the earliest ever. does that mean that is the kickoff to the real campaign season when voters are now tuned in and paying attention? what is it going to mean? guest: i think it is the beginning and that's a good point. we don't really start at labor day. in the old days, decades and decades ago. that honestly was the kickoff. people would save lots of things )+r r day and the few months or weeks that followed labor day. that has long since faded. john f. kennedy announced the presidency on january 2, 1960. the year he ran. think of that. now they aouefore they are running or we know they are■@ve not formally announced. we have a permanent campaign on both sides. stephen the third parties an

independents get into that mode as well. i would say yes. this is so unprecedented to have a debate between the presidential candidates in june. they normally start in september. the kennedy-nixon debates were in september and october. they had more on national tv. they were interesting. i encourage people to go to utube and other places to watch those debates. some of it will be foreign to them because the issues have changed. it's interesting to see the demeanor. oh, how we have gone downhill. my god have we gone downhill. kennedy and nixon were actually respectful of one another. they occasionally complemented one another. they call each other mr. kennedy, mr.president, senator. it is depressing in a way to

watch them. we have deteriorated so much. that will be a nightmare. the two people i feel most sympathy for another two candidates on the stage. it is the two moderators. how on the world they will run that and control it, i don't know. they are able to turn off the mic now but i bet the candidates can be heard by the other candidate's mic. it will be tougher than they think. host: let's talk to the callers. patrick up first on the life of democrat, texas. caller: my name is patrick. people call me chud. i'm 25 now. i was a college student around 2019. i wanted to talk about how the trump trial will impact the focus of everything involved. i think i may play a large part as a regular bystander.

also, my friend said that this trial is definitely going to impact a lot of situations in regards to the trump trial and what he will do in the coming future. he thinks it will be an absolute gem of a debate in 2024 because he feels our politics are a lot more focused on entertainment nowadays. also, i wanted to say for the last mentions, -- host: he talked about the debates. what kind of an impacted they have in 2020? do we think they will have an impact or is it just entertainment? guest: we have long since

entered the age of infotainment. that will not change. trump comes out of that world. do would have been president without "the apprentice." almost everybody agrees with that. infotainment is part of the game. eed to remove or of these debates are early. ever. totally president, june 27. the second is mid-september. we have had plenty of debates in september but normally we have the second debate in october. facets, debate is the second debate -- the september debate is the second debate. will that last? that is the question. will they last? people focus on things and say this thing that happened today is the most important thing that has ever happened or ever will happen. you go a week later and people don't even remember what it was that was the most important

thing that has ever happened. that is the nature of our world it depends on what occurs during the debate, whether one of the candidates makes a terrible bi's his age horton trump's case -- or in trump's case shows his both campaigns hope that is not true for their candidate but it's true for the other candidate. we will see. i do think your poin about this kicking off the election much earlier than usual is completely true. then you are following up with the republican national convention just a couple of weeks later. you are following up with the democratic convention. we always pretend the campaign against on labor day. you have a second debate a couple weeks later. this is going to be an election full of big events that will

keep people focused on the election. whether they can those big events and calculate their vote on that basis is a very different question. host: wayne■2 in harrisburg, pennsylvania, republican. caller: i would like to ask the guest on a debate issue we donald trump going on eight years. what could they do to get the poor people, black, white, hispanic, any race, poor people need help now. if they wanted to make any difference all they have to do is go up on the minimum wage to $21. whoever does that will win the election. they are not going to do it.

host: larry? guest: i'm not sure what they will do an minimum-wage. it is much more likely the democrats would wage it then republicans. republicans say it 11 eighths jobs. democrats say poor people and lower middle class need the additional increment, especially because of inflation. i leave that debate to people who are experts in the field. i would listen carefully to the debates. people say it is just rhetoric. but they say doesn't matter. at the very least they are held accountable in office for they said in the debates. if they promise a and deliver z directly in contradiction to whatever they promised, they suffer for it to a certain degree. there favorability ratings may fall -- their favorability ratings may fall. it does not matter as much as what they do. always remember what the

campaign manager for richard nixon said after nixon won the close election. he said don't listen to what we say. watch what we do. that is true for all presidents. that doesn't mean their words don't count and the words don't matter. host: independent in whiting, vermont. caller: good morning. i have a different take on the elections. i am working sir and not about who was middle-class or how much money people are making, which is very important. i'm worrie about the world health organization. it is meeting soon art has a meeting now. the world economic forum. globalist movements is affecting american citizens. open borders are part of it. nobody talks about that. americans are fighting amongst ourselves over pennies, this,

that. we arenggest globalist by far. he's working with all these countries underneath the noses of the american citizenthe persn there, can we talk about the world healthation? it's bigger than people know. guest: i certainly agree that international affairs and international organizations are connected to the u.n. and some are separate from it but are importanthere are things we shoy attention to and learn more about. i have to tell you i'm not an expert in any of that. i am sure all my invitations to their important intemail. we have a terrible problem with mail delivery. i have a wonderful mail delivery person. let me add that before i stop

getting mail entirely. i'm sure that's what's happening to my invitation to the big events. if i ever get invited and i'm able to actually attend, maybe i will have a better answer for you. you are certainly right that we ought to pay attention to those things and many, many other things. if i had one prayer to be answered it would be that americans pay more attention to politics and read reliable publications and watch reliable tv shows. they can be liberal, conservative, moderate, does not matter. as long as you're trying to learn and absorb the information. without those voters we are going to make mistake after mistake after mistake. host: in talking about foreign policy, the israel-gaza war is something that is starting to hurt president biden's popularity among a lot of voters.

guest: i'm on a college campus. we call it the ground. they don't do that at virginia tech. they just call it campus. i'm sorry. i don't know what your reaction is. i don't have you on screen but i know you agree with me. we have had demonstrations just like almost every college campus has. virginia tech has them as well. most universities in this and across the nation and ahead them to varying degree. some arewe never want that. young people are interested in tention. it is true for both sides. jewish americans are paying close attention. they want to know or candidates stand on israel and the u.s. backing israel. care of americans want to know what the u.s. is really doing for gaza, both civilians, innoct

civilians and providing aid from what is really a near famine. they both have important concer. they will consider them. i also have to tell you i have seen a lot of evidence that while people are concerned about it, when forced to make a choice of a candidate it is actually not in the top three or four issues that they mention and actually are basing their vote on. i'm not saying it's not important. it's critically important. a cease fire please for everybody's sake. you have to take this and context -- in context. all these issues have importance for millions of americans. host: beverly in wyoming on the line for democrats. caller: good morning. i thought the debate with trump and biden was terrible at the

last debate. because trump never lets anybody speak over him. i;i thought it was very rude, terrible. then to have touting that he won before the cat was even divvied. they were doing a victory lap in every thelthe votes were in. i don't understand these people that can this into that. then he brings all his flags with him. that is embarrassing. demeaning. ackerman is taking all the credit for what joe biden's got on the agenda. i don't understand the republicans. they want to take the credit but they don't do the work.

've got to say. host: any comment? guest: i will comment on the first part. the first part is important. one of the major changes that i'm delighted about in the debate process is that the moderators cannot turn off the microphone of the candidate who has either met or exceeded his time limit for each question. if you don't have control of the debate, it becomes more negative, nastier, more chaotic. just look at the past debates and you can see that is true. i think this rule should have been in effect decades ago. i'm thrilled it is taking place. come also thrilled there is no live audience. i love the energy that live audiences bring. in the old days they would be

careful about keeping quiet. they obeyed the moderators. they paid attention to the rules. they kept quiet. the time they are cheering or jeering was often subtracted from the candidate. they did that with the hurt their candidate. now they could care less. they scream and cheer and chant can make it difficult to watch a debate and have any coherence to the debate. maybe it will work and maybe it won't work. we have two debates where be contested out. the first one is the more important and will set the precedent. i hope on june 27 that somehow those two cnn moderators are able to insist that the rule be obeyed and that by turning off the mic you can't really hear the other candidate interfering with the candidate who is speaking. fingers crossed, toes crossed. host: you have in your website

an article with the title, "the down bill the consequences of trump's vp options." tell us who you are thinking is in the lead for that. what do you mean by the down ballot consequences of that pic? guest: certainly. let me complement and single out kyle condit and miles coleman, cristobal steph -- in my crystal ball staff. they know so much that it's writing. -- frightening. many have gone on to careers in politics over the decades. down ballot means the people running for senate and house and governor and state and sometimes even city council and mayor. there is some affect that the

candidate for president can have on those other races. dgwhen there is a hometown effet first say a candidateor president who is from that state, it can add a point or two. it doe't always have to but it can. and when y pick strategically a vice presidential candidate it can affect more than your own state. it can affect the category of voters. qnit can affect the region. it used be the south would respond favorably to the selection of a southern candidate for vice president. this is going to be, certainly for the house, a squeaker election. . close. both sides agreed that the side that was the majority will be lucky to get a majority of 10 or 15. that is not insignificant. there are 435 house members who vote on the floor. in the senate it can add a point or two or subtract a point or

two. we have quite a number of close and it races. unfortunately for the democrats, the vast majority are democratic incumbents for states that are competitive and swing states. that is what my mean by down ballot contest. the choice trump is really going to matter. it probably matters less than usual because trump absorbs the heat and light of any campaign. i don't know that the vice presidential candidate will make as much of a splash as usual. the vice president can raise money. the vice president can be in place as a candidate cannot and so on. in terms of swinging boats divine of you as much affect. we will wait and see. the list changes every couple of days. it's a strategy.

interested in the choice. the trump people want to have a counter headline from whatever's happening in the trial. beyo trump also changes his mind. you can have different choices three times a day . we will see who we end up with. he was satisfied with mike pence during the administration until january 6 of 2021. he probably, not definitely but probably will want to pick a vice president who was going to obey him if he tells them to hold that the election. you decide whether that is good, bad, or indifferent. i personally think it is bad. we ought to adhere to the rules in the constitution ane law. nt criteria for trump. as far as biden is concerned, the decision was made long ago to continue withe

i don't see that changing. host: rachelny, texas. caller: i was checking out the national post in 2020. fox newsthe election had joe biden up 52 and then trump 44. then i looked at the national polls. it was pretty much right on the same poll numbers. then the election, biden won 81 million vote in trump won 74 million votes. the post was pretty mu right on. the electoral votes, biden got 306 and trump got 232. trump said the election was stolen becausehatever. george only gives 16 electoral votes. which would only put 248 for

trump. that still would not have been 270. fox news fired the host on fox news because he called the ection for biden. point steve bannon on a talk radishow said when he was asked about the poll numbers, trump is behind. how is it going to win? he said trump will call literally. -- call it early. that is how he was going tow in it -- to win it. i can't believe people think the election was stolen. the poll numbers were right on election day. i don't understand that they can be saying it's a fraud election. host: larry? guest: i'm not■% goi tright. overall they had biden winning. some of the individual polls were really off. also they had biden winning by

wide margins in georgia and arizona and wisconsin. one poll, i think it was the washington post, a few days before the election that had biden up by 17 percentage points. he won by a fraction of 1%. that far off just a few days before the election? there were plenty of other polls that were wrong. polls are not votes. votes are far more important than polls. everyone needs to remember that. everyone needs to discount these stories about this poll and that pole. -- poll and the other poll. they just want you to click on a story and talk about it. the news media panels talk about it endlessly as though it matters. it doesn't matter. let me balance that by saying

the 2020 election absolutely positively was not period. i'm sure i just upset a lot of people and i'm sorry you're upset. the evidence is overwhelming and has been all along. it has been the judgment of i think over 60 judges, including many appointed by donald trump, that the election was safe and secure. i don't have any times we have to say it. that is not the conduct democracy. you did not support democracy when you only support the election results that elect the other party's candidate are rigged or have been changed by voter fraud. it is ridiculous. people have got to let that notion go. i would sure like to see more leadership from the republican side. they have been parroting the big

lie that donald trump told them in the beginning to justify to stop the peaceful transfer of power. they don't want to irritate donald trump. they know better. some have told me that privately. of course they know the election was safe and secure. it is like pulling teeth to even get them to say that biden is a legitimate president. our standards have fallen so low that it is depressing for somebody like me who's been around so long and remembers when our system was much better and much stronger. host: jill is a democrat in columbus, ohio. caller: thank you. i'm not talking about polls again. i am one of the democrats that are freaking out about the most recent polling. what gets me they ask specific questions like on the

economy where they say the unemployment rate is the highest it's been in 50 years, when in fact it people think we are in a recession with a gdp on average is actually higher than it was under the trump administration. another thing is biden -- 20% of respondents said he was responsible for roe v. wade being overturned. infrastructure. both trump and biden get equal credit for the infrastructure bill. when in fact it was biden that did it. trump talked about it but biden actually acted on it. he actually got it passed. how are people so misinformed? i'm freaking out here. guest: well, you are right about all the individual items. i have seen that repeatedly about other items too. if i can get a brief commercial in, my center for politics at the university of virginia was founded 25 years ago to help

civic education, help the teachers with civic education. from kindergarten all the way through the end of high school. even for pty college. they provide free materials online, information they need, giving mock elections to get students interested. we have a crisis of civic education in this country. i mentioned this earlier. if we the people, the people of the united states, the voters, if we don't start paying attention more carefully to what the truth is as opposed to falsehoods, at the facts are as opposed to some of the phony statistics that are cited, how democracy is going down the drain regardless of who wins. i'm with you on that. host: larry sabato, founder and editor in chief of sabato's crystal ball and center for

politics darker at the university of virginia. you can find his work at centerforpolitics.org. thanks as always for being on the program. guest: i always enjoy the callers. host: that's all the time we have for today's show. thank you listening. we are back tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. eastern. have a great day. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellco ♪jó >> a look now at some ofc-span. coming up shortly, a conversation on migration policy in the u.s. and europe