[captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2024] ♪ >> thisfternoon, republican esential nominee former presendonald trump and his vice presidential pick ohio senator j.d. vance will hold a campaign rally in grand rapids, michigan. this will be former president trump and senator vance's first rally after officially accepting the nomatns. watch live starting at 5: p. eastern on c-span, c-spanow or online at c-span.org. >> after the attempted assassination of forme president donald trump, secret

rvice director kimberly cheatle is set to testify unsecured elapses that may have led the shooting. what's a use oversight and reform committee hearing live monday at 10:00 m. eastern on c-span2, c-span now, or online at c-span.org. >> congress returns next week from the recess of the republican national convention. the u.s. house is back on monday at noon eastern. members will work on 2025 federal spending legislation funding the agriculture, energy and interior and treasury departments for next year. on wednesday, senators join members of the house chamber to hear an address by israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu to a joint meeting of congress. the senate returns tuesday at 3:00 p.m. eastern. lawmakers will vote on several of president biden's executive and judicial nominations, quitting margaret taylor to be legal advisor to the state department, several republicans including vice president on nominee j.d. vance have placed a

hold on her nomination. what's coverage on c-span, the senate on c-span2, and watch all of our coverage of c-span now, or online at c-span.org. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are funded by these television companies, and more, including comcast. >> you think this is just a community center? it is way more than that. >> comcast is pandering with a thousand community centers to create wi-fi enabled areas so students can get the tools they need to be ready for anything. >> comcast supports c-span as a public service, along with these other televisi providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy.

announcer: "washington general" is next. and we want to hear from you. leave a facebook comic at facebook.com/c-span. or upstanders a treat using that he spent wj. washington general starts now. >> this is washington general for saturday, july 20th. former president trump officially clinch the twin 24 republican nomination during the convention in milwaukee, wisconsin. a new wave of democratic lawmakers publicly called on president biden to leave the presidential race. restart the program. we want to hear your thoughts on the campaign 24. here are the alliance. democrats 227,488,000.

republicans 2,027,488,001 and independents 20,274,888,002. we would like to texas, you can do so at 2,027,488,003. be sure to include your name and city. you can also posed a question or comment on facebook at facebook.com/c-span. or on x at c-span wj. thank you for joining us this morning. a busy week and campaign 2024 with the election. 108 days away. we're going to get going to get to your calls and comments in just a few moments. but first more from what happened this week. a recap from the hill. cannot accept presidential not on rnc's for the night. the article says former president donald trump former president donald trump told the estate for over 90 minutes on thursday night and delivering his speech accepting his party's nomination for president. the remarks for the commission

of four days of speeches and gatherings in milwaukee. tanka vercher's first three days held in the shallows of an assassination attempt on trump have sought to showcase unity as coach and enthusiasm around trump's third white house run. trump's running mate, senator jd vance republican of ohio in his work first remarks to the convention was the night off in his view of where the party in the country needs to go. and in terms of the democratic side, this from nbc. 13 more democrats including pelosi allies call for biden to exit 2024 election. the number of biden detractors on. capitol hill now stands at 35 or more than 10% of the combined democratic caucuses in the house and senate. it is not just lawmakers and according to a new poll from the associated press and north about two-thirds of democrats want

biden to withdraw. you can see on your screen, blue lines. the light blue hens, 65% is the overall number of democrats. it is at 65%. we want to hear your thoughts on camping 2024. candidates you are supporting the issues you are concerned about. and we will start with cornell in new jersey on the democrats line. good morning kate cornell. caller: good morning, tammy. it is unfortunate that we are -- we all are we all are going to get old one. but the problem is sometimes you have to take the keys from someone who has gotten too old to drive. but the bottom line is you don't take the keys from somebody that is too old to drive and give them to a five-year-old.

donald trump with his behavior over the last five years or even 10 years, he picked vice president -- he picked jd vance to be his running mate. but did they forget that jd vance said that donald trump was -- should never be qualified to -- is not qualified to be president, should not be running? don't they forget that donald trump was the first president in over 100 years that did not go to inauguration? that is why i said we don't turn the keys over to a five-year-old. >> cornell, you are a democrat.

what would you like to see president biden do the staying in the race or withdraw? caller: well, it is his choice. he has a team around him. he is not a dictator. he has people in place that are willing to run the country, where donald trump had people in place that all they did was say, yes, sir, and bow and even when thought she was the government, fauci was scared to speak with donald trump. there's nobody in the democratic party scared to speak when joe biden has the problems that he had or you wouldn't have to 35 senators or 35 elected officials coming out and say, it is time to give up. but you don't have the keys to a five-year-old and like i said, when donald trump was in office, he took -- he put a veil over

president obama's reported in the white house. he put a veil over bill clinton's portrait in the white house. and like i said earlier, we remember what vance said. we remember what mitch mcconnell said after january 6. it was a donald trump's behavior. we as a civil society cannot turn the keys back over to donald trump no matter how many supporters he had. tammy: and in lawrenceville, georgia, on the republican line, good morning. good morning, ed. caller: good morning. that guy from new jersey, he needs to ask himself, did biden ask us if we wanted 10 million illegal aliens in our house? but here's what i want to tell

you about this campaign. i went to mall yesterday. and i saw a sign in the food court that said, then two weeks, $16.49. that is what biden gave has. anybody that voted for biden is just as delusional and demented as he is. thank you. tammy: oliver in virginia on the dependent line. good morning, oliver. caller: good morning, sweetheart. thank you for taking my call. i would like to say that i am so shocked at americans who have come to donald trump's a in tearing this country apart. he has been a divider and a dictator, i think, already when he asked the military to shoot people like -- like people

during the riots. he wanted the military to shoot people. what are they thinking about? you can look at the convention and see that man has those you are talking about losing -- and being able to take care of the country. donald trump reminds me of a man who is insane. he has no business with the nuclear weapon secrets. he is willing and he is obvious he is a prudent supporter. and jd vance want to let ukraine overdose they will help russia turn ukraine over to put in. tammy: oliver, you are an independent. who did you vote for in 2020? : sweetheart, in 2020, i voted for biden even though i'm an independent because i'm

afraid of donald trump. i cannot even sleep when he was in the white house. he is an insane person who is only out for himself and his only run for the presidency so he does not have to go to prison for stealing secret weapons. >> to jasper in cleveland, ohio, on the democrats line. good morning, chester -- jasper. caller: good morning to you. i would love to say but i called in about this when trump was on the other night giving his address to people there. he lied to him when he said he felt something on his head and he grabbed his gear and went down and he did not realize until he looked at his hand was covered. it was his words. it was covered in blood. if you look at the hand he raised, there was no red on that. he has a right hand. there was no trace of any kind of blood on his hand.

so i don't know what he said he saw. 's and was covered in press, he held it -- they held it down for so long. they could do all kind of stuff to him. like i said. he was bleeding after. i think that was does have a good day. thank you. tammy: joe in georgia on the republican line. good morning, joe. caller: good morning. i love it c-span. i've been calling your great network for over 30 -- 30 years and i think trump will win with the biggest landslid in history. we are meeting a bunch of trump patriots and i have never seen the republicans so fired up and energized and my great friend steve would run the. >> economy and we will have to pass the economy and the best stock market in the history of the world. so i'm so far up about trump.

i'm having a hard time sleeping but trump is the best. tammy: did you watch any of the unsee coverage this week? caller: and i had a hard time sleeping because i was so fired up. i'm a stock market guy and i want to predict the stock market will break every record in the history of the world with donald john trump as president and i those are theme song is going to be "happy days are here again." >> joe in worcester, massachusetts on the independent line. good morning, joseph. caller: good morning, c-span. my take is i want to talk about donald trump vice president picked. jd vance. three major points he made that touched my heart. but first i would like to say on a black man who supports eric trump 100 percent voted for him and again.

he is the greatest president since abraham lincoln, the emancipation proclamation, 1862. 1865. no, jd vance, i said though she spent a lot of time in the marine corps. [inaudible] marina that you have a sense of pride and never to america. instead of -- the first to five. three points he made that to my heart. first point guards he said iraq. now, now, in the rinse, in boot camp, you have to hear [inaudible] war stories. that is that side. and i remember it it may be joe -- drill instructor telling us about the evil [inaudible] viacom and vietnam. i saw a buddy's head blown off next to him. eddie grant served in iraq. in 2002. and he had no -- he said as it

were heard never [inaudible] and that is the type of person america needs. people willing to forgive like donald trump. certain things you don't forgive. the other apartment he made i think his mother was related to drugs for 10 is good. he touched a lot of american families. there's too many people on drugs in america. and the apartment he made. he talked about in a back drop to america. back in the 19 70's, the ceo of the american companies made [inaudible] 40 or 40 times more than the average worker in the company. noted make for hundred times more. they ship jobs to the philippines, to china, to mexico. america needs to bring back manufacturing. that is the only way. we have too much. you have psychiatrists, drought. we need to bring back the manufacturing jobs for america so that we can be great again.

tammy: raimann in brookhaven, mississippi, on the democrats line. good morning, raymond. caller: good morning, c-span. i'm just a frustrated democrat and i think here we go again. every time a democrat [inaudible] restocking the banks i remember coming out obama took over -- $750 billion, they needed obama went back and stuck the banks. come up with obamacare. come out. and we did the auto industry. jobsill come. then be handed to trump. the jobs were still flowing. this was obama economy, him and biden. him and biden command.

and here we go again. we have cut those we are going to give trump trump the best economy since the '60's because of -- he don't know when to lead. they expect us to vote for somebody [inaudible]. >> , what would you like to see president biden to, stay in the race? caller: i would like to see biden step out. i love him. he has been the greatest president of my lifetime and i will hate to see the democrats again hand over the best economy we are talk about they're going to do another tax cut, and we're going to be back into the same thing. we're going to be in isolation country and we might as well pull all of them -- nine states and all of the world so we are

going to do that and the tears that he is going to put all this stuff coming from china, i don't know and plus the democrats got more people than old man that don't know when to go and that is all i got to say. tammy: that was raymond and he is among the 65% of democrats who are saying president biden should withdraw from the presidential race. this from the associated press as more democratic members of congress urged him for somebody to talk about bringing the total since his disastrous debate against trump nearly goes to nearly 3,000. biden remained isolated at his beach house in delaware after being diagnosed with covid-19. the person who has insisted he could be husband trump was with

family and relying on a few long-term rates. as he resisted efforts to shove him aside. one person who has been speaking out on president biden's behalf is his chair of his campaign, jen o'malley dillon. she was on morning joe yesterday. here's what she said about president biden. >> is joe biden still in the race? does he plan to stay in the race? if so? -- if so, what is the plan. jen: absolutely to present -- is in this race. you have heard him say that time and time again. and donald trump is not going to offer anything new to the american people. he is the same person he was in 2020. he is the same person he was in the debate stage. and that is about himself and nothing about those about the american people and joe biden is more committed to nurse than ever and we believe on this campaign we are built for the

close election that we are in and we see the path forward. the person is the leader of our campaign and of the country and he is clearly in our impression and what we build and in our engagement with voters he is the best person to take on donald trump to prosecute the case and present his vision versus what we saw last night. joe: so ken, what you say to democrats who say he can't win and that there are better candidates that can go out there and beat donald trump? jen: a look, of course, i'm not going to say that this has not been a tough several weeks for the campaign. and we have definitely seen some slippage in support. but it has been a small movement and you know this. the reason is because so much of this race is hard and already. the american people know that the president's order. they see that. they knew that before the debate yes, of course, we have a lot of work to do to ma sure that we are reassuring the american

people that yeis old but he can do the job and he can win. and i think that that is really fundamentally what we are built for as a campaign. this entire campaign has been built for how close this race is going to be. it was closed in 2020. is going to be closed in 2024. tammy: president biden has said that he plans on staying in the race. he issued a statement in response to person trump rnc speech on tuesday night in part the statement says, former president trump focused on his own grievance with no plans to introduce an no plan to make life better for working people. together, as a party and as a country, we can and will defeat him at the ballot box. look forward to getting back to about -- getting back on the campaign trail next week to continue exposing the threat of don trump project 235 agenda. let's hear from ken in south carolina on the republican side. good morning, ken.

caller: thank you. first of all, obama did not say -- save the economy. he got a bill from the congress trillions of euros that he signed and he gave to the financial entities. so he bailed them out. and the black gentleman said biden, he said biden was the best person he ever seen? is he delusional? have you seen the economy? he raised the interest rates three times? the average payment is $4,500 a month for groceries? we have been fully with illegal immigrants around the world, from around the world? they give him work visas? yes, they are taking black american jobs. we are the most majority. the only thing the democratic party has to offer is racism and division. told him as he does if he was refuse any equipment that he wouldn't have been brought to court on those bogus charges.

president joe biden, not put two words together. he cannot walk up stairs. he can't comprehend. and before you head up, i want all of democrats to hear this. the people are watching, that are closer to is calling for him to step down! they know him better than we know him, and they are calling him to step down. but the american people who are struggling to survive on every time that everything -- everything is up. how can they see this man is doing a great job? but donald trump cannot be a dictator because we have congress and the attack on donald trump's life, the secret service and the cia whoever had that man in their radar for 10 or 20 minutes before the attack. that man should never been allowed to fire a shot. it was incompetent. and some democrats are saying they wish he would have gotten shot.

where are the american people? especially in the black americans. we have been hurt the most by illegal immigration. come on, black people, wake up! tammy: nancy in houston, texas, on the independent nine, good morning, nancy. caller: good morning. for this guy that the just had on i was going to say exactly what he said. are these people? are they in another world? have they seen what is going on in the last 3 1/2 years? to our country? are you kidding me? and they are defending it? i think the only thing i can come up with is they hate america like all these other cnn and msnbc, all they do is talk how bad america is. they brought these illegal immigrants in for future votes. who are they kidding? and the prices, are you push the

greatest person that ever lived, oh, my god, are they -- they made not -- buy -- they must not have to buy food or gas. where are they living? because they should not are living in my world. and this gentleman that it is had on exactly how i feel. and most of the road, if you look at the polls, there's no way that joe biden is ahead of trouble in the polls. those no wake. that his polls are seeking. he is losing donors. this does the democratic party is upside down. and now they're going to go after trump. they tried to put him in jail. they tried to impeach him. he tried to kill him. me, oh, my god. when is it going to stop? when is one is this were going to come together and get rid of these illegal immigrants that are taking our tax dollars? there getting more money and more than i make on my social security. they are living in highways, highways, hotels.

the veterans are sleeping on the streets. descriptors. there's people dying every day on the streets and those are drugs. and say -- and they say this is the greatest president they have ever seen? i just -- i -- it is -- it blows me away how people think and how people rationalize. and trump, when trump was in office, i do not have to worry about food. i do not have to worry about gas. i could pay my rent. my savings has dwindled. i'm scared i'm going to be homeless and a couple of months. and i'm telling, it is really scary. i'm on social security. i got a little bit of savings, and it is almost gone. thank you. tammy: eric in buffalo, new york on the democrats want. good morning, eric. caller: good morning. how are you? thank you for taking my call. so much to take in here.

first, horrible on the assassination attempt on presidential. there should no be no political -- but former president trump. there should be no political violence anywhere. jd vance is brought in by that to class. peter thiel. jd vance made a statement that his mother was directly affected by the use by illegal immigrants bring in drugs across the border. and jd vance's mother was a nurse who was stealing prescription drugs and using it for her cell. jd vance is a product of low income schooling that put him through college. the ohio state and then harvard or yale, wherever he went to his

job in the marine corps was a correspondent. he was a reporter in the main corporate he'd never seen action. he never was in the front line. he was behind the lines in the task. and jd vance also was in the air division, which does not work on the front lines. trump is a manipulator of the press. these democrats that are calling for joe biden to step aside, pass the torch is funded by dean phillips and who else? steve schmidt. and liked by others billionaire class media. it is just manipulation of the press, the media. against the american people, which is horrible, horrible, the people -- the economy is doing

great. oil companies are making record profits. we introduce more oil than any country in the world. they are making billions of dollars in profits. this inflation is caused by corporate greed. what you don't the people see? joe biden does not control the oil prices. oh. controls oil prices which inflated the price because of the war in ukraine and russia not being able to produce or put their oil back on the market. there's just so many things inside things that joe biden has been taking care of and helping this world become a better place. tammy: eric mentioned the pac passed the torch.

they are scheduled to launch a add asking. to bite to step down from usa today a mysterious new political action committee has spent 36,000 on ads urging the president joe biden to leave the 20. mika: race including in his home state, delaware, it is going to start aerin in his home state of delaware during morning joe, says that that is his favorite program. here is that and that is going to start area next week. [video clip] >> president biden, you saved democracy in 2020. >> now you have the chance to do it again. >> it is attempt to pass the torch. >> one that can bring new energy. >> and make sure donald trump never gets near the white house again. >> our country's future is in your hands. >> so please be the leader we know you are, pass the torch, joe. >> pass the torch.

>> pass the torch. >> pass the torch is responsible for the content of this advertisement. tammy: more from the article. records showing who is leading the pack will not be available for another three months. but the group describes itself as a "democratic grassroots campaign" on its social media profiles. pass the torch says it has made 10,000 photos and sent 70,000 was said it will hold a rally outside the white house today. let's hear from roy in california on the rear parking line. good morning, roy. caller: good morning. my deal is two parter. with trump as it comes down to it, i would say we got convicted. secret service was talking about going to jail with him. so in make no -- so no inmate would kill him. he does say that his isolation would end up with his immunization and now there are some people maybe want to make

the law that if any person goes to jail, that is it. secret service goes with him for a local or any other conviction. the other part is dealing with harris. but when biden gets kicked out, she will have control of the $24 million. and they think rfk should be a good one president and then she would be vp for a second time. the only vp for both of them. that is it. tammy: rakell in new jersey on the independent line. good morning carranco. caller: good morning, one sec. garbages lower -- how are you? good morning. good morning. tammy: good morning. caller: hello? ok. so it might head is completely spinning. [chuckles] i am -- immigrated to this country. they are young, my parents brought me here to make a better

life for me and my kids, myself, my brother. and i have never, never in my life have -- that i've been here in america seen such a mess in this country. such a mess. i am a resident of this country. and i can't do certain things that new yorkers that are leading immigrants, illegal immigrants and that, flood our country. i can't let my four-year-old daughter go outside and play. the school systems. like. i don't even know. my head is spinning with everything, with biden, with president truman, there's a lot of fake news about president trump. if you guys, the world believes in jesus. ok. that shot that he got and he was literally saved. he is a miracle. there is a reason and a purpose for him. i was never for president trump. i was never for those i do not like him. i thought he was arrogant.

but he is a new yorker. that is how he talks. he is not a fake. he does not sit here and talk about god every single time. there is a reason why he is so -- still standing. tammy: you are an independent. did you support him in 2020. caller: i did not. i did not agree with a lot of things that were going on in 2020 with the immigration, with the kids being separated, with everything that was happening. but there were a lot of people behind that. everyone points to. and trump because he is our main leader and he is our main leader. so everyone points to him but he has a team behind them that makes decision and he will be the one who comes in and does what needs to be done. president biden is not mentally capable to run for another four years. his health is deteriorating. ok? he can't remember where he is saying what he is doing. it is embarrassing. it is embarrassing for america. ok? as an immigrant, ok, as an

ingrained that immigrated here, i don't have the peter -- i don't have the freedom that i have four or six years ago. when peyton judd was present, i went on vacation every year with my kids. ok. moved to florida. on a single mother. i had a great job in florida. i was doing amazing. everything crumbled. everything crumpled. i'm living check by check as a single mom. and i have a degree. it is crazy. the inflation has taken our country. my family in brazil for those are like, what is going on? it feels like i'm living in a third world country. i'm appalled. and everybody needs to stop with the violence, with the president trump is this, oppose to is that. you know, people can change. if you believe in god, one single second, if something happens in your life that you have an encounter with god, you can change. and i believe that that they that they tried to assassinate president trump, he had a change

of heart. >> that was racquel in new jersey. robert in st. louis on the republican line. good morning, robert. caller: good morning. thanks for the privilege. america, we need to get things together, our political people, and going against feidin. the only reason they are doing it is the political game, and also known as pretty much cowards. one thing about the republican side is they admire our bows and even when i was a kid, people, because i went to grade school and people admired bullies, you know, and they adhere to them. and i was watching a movie called "who shot liberty

valance" and john wayne was in. and at the end of the film, it was a reporter, he told a story, he asked the senator, why did he want the story change where he thought that they killed liberty valance? and we thought pretty much just told him, you can't report the truth if the history is better than the truth, the report there. without people in america. we just got to relax, slowdown and let the democrats quit being afraid. for realism is a real situation. you have to do with it. always going back to the statements where we got common sense in that regard concerns. and i think common sense and

those two words should never go together. and that is where america needs to go to. common sense has no accountability. good sense, that means you have to think. you have to use wisdom. -- had to use wisdom to make decisions. that is all we need in america. good sense. thank you. tammy: david in louisville, kentucky, on the republican line. good morning, david. caller: good morning. how are you? >> i'm well. caller: i wish people would have an honest conversation with themselves on everything that is going on, everything because we are just too much -- pretty much just letting the educate themselves and hear one word that one party says and they all run with it and couple words at of a conversation's and they make it what they think it means and it don't mean what they say it is and people just need to educate themselves.

i like jd vance. jd vance has a story for everybody. everybody who is a normal person, a person to get ahead in this world, it does not matter what color you are, so much divide in our country with color and to me, the democrats need to start talking about everybody instead of just talking about black people and gay people. that is not all the people in the country. it is everybody in this country that is trying to make a living, trying to provide for their families and jd vance has a story and yes. i did not vote for trump the last time. but i just paid 385 for gas this morning. under eric trump, yes, gas was two dollars and some states it was less than two dollars a gallon. it is 3.85 right now in indiana. what does that tell you what you are paying to those more than you paid and as far as people say and think about the lenders need to pay their fair share and

others, everything. they do pay their fair share if people would look it up. elon musk paid over a billion dollars in taxes last year. all of them. buildings. if you are a billionaire, if you make millions, you're going to pay millions of taxes. and -- people just hear what they hear but they don't bother to go look things up themselves on what is going on and all the hate and everything in even kamala harris on the trail keeps talking about gay people and you can't tell people -- no one has ever done that. i used to get -- i want to i went to gay weddings. arctic people to tran18 weddings in california in the '90's. but they treating preaching it and the key treating black

treatment that is david in kentucky. he mentioned senator ohio senator jd vance. he formally accepted the republican party nomination to be the vice presidential candidate on wednesday night. here is some of his remarks from the speech. >> we have a big 10 it is party from everything from national security to economic policy. members to show you my fellow republicans is we love this country and we are united to win. [cheers and applause] that is right. now, i think our disagreements actually make us stronger. that is what i've learned in my time in the united states said it. or sometimes i persuade my colleagues and sometimes they persuade me. and my message to my fellow americans, those watching from across the country, is should we be governed by a current -- governed by a party that is underway to debate ideas and

come to the best solution? [cheers and applause] that is the republican rtof the next four years. unedn love for this country and committed to free spee i the open exchange of ideas. [cerand applause] and solo tonight, mr. chairman, i stand here humble and i overwhelmed with gratitu t say i officially accept your nomination to be vice presidt of the united states of america. host: you can watch senator vance's in her speech on mine and c-span.org along with the rest of the rnc coverage and another program note for you, you can watch him and pertinent former president from speak tonight or this afternoon, they are going to be holding a

campaign rally in grand rapids, michigan. the former president and the senator, is going to be their first rally after accepting the nominations in that event does that event starts starts like it does is going does is going to be live starting at 5:00 p.m. eastern on c-span, she spent no, every mobile app and online at c-span.org. james in wisconsin coming on the independent line, good morning, james. caller: yes, thank you for taking my call. i have to say i was involved in the goldwater campaign back in 1964. and this feels to me just exactly like when goldwater double down on extremism, trump has double down on extremism and i saw people just scared to death about goldwater and the glitter bombs and stuff and this is going to happen with trump but he is going to go down to select goldwater. the second thing is that we have been labor strikes here in our house. and this feels like biting is in

this afl-cio or looking at this as a labor union confrontation where both sides dig in and that is kind of what is going to happen. the third thing is if you look at the closer picture of trump, you can see where that bullet hit him right between the ear and work with the joints of the skull. so i think we need more information about the medical effects. at any rate, and i think trump could have been kind of in a state of shock. he may still be in shock over that shooting and i think we still need medical information about that. that is all i got. host: lee in virginia on the democrats line. good morning currently. caller: good morning. i am very thankful for c-span. and listen to all the speeches at the rnc convention. on your podcast and it was wonderful.

and i have also participated in the listen first project. and i signed up again to do that. and i would encourage everyone to do that. and also, try not to listen to the loudest person in the room. off and, you know, they are just outraged or something and they have some sort of chip on their shoulder. let's listen to ordinary americans with extraordinary stories. thank you, c-span. host: you may be interested in this, but it appears god one founder and ceo of the sun first is going to be joining us for discussion starting at 8:00. caller: i look forward to that. host: joe in bedford, virginia, on the republican line. good morning, joe. caller: good morning. good morning, yes, i got a few things to say. trump put america into the best shape that has ever been before in history. and then true to form, the

socialist party comes in and totally destroys everything because they are totally inept and corrupt. and they can even admit the history that the cells went, you know, democratic. all your card-carrying ku klux klan and jim crow was the democratic party, not the republicans. the socialist party gives iran boatloads of cash. every chance to get. the media does not report on 80% of it. but illegals coming in to our military post we have russian warships off our coast. we have chinese subs off our coast. and it is reported but you can that if a republican was in office, they would be all over the news. you know? they just totally destroyed america that made us a laughingstock in the world and

how and when to be so brain-dead and indoctrinated to say that this is better than what we had, that is totally insane. host: ken in pennsylvania on the independent line. good morning, ken. caller: hello? host: hello. you are on. caller: i will try to be as concise as i can. yeah, i'm calling the independent line. are part of the other group that is . i'm not the pourable. i think the american people, you know, this democracy thing is a process. it is a long process. it is a devolving process. and we have such short memories, ok. under bill clinton, eight years, -- bill clinton accomplished a lot, ok. one of the biggest pushes he had was everyone can afford to buy a house and that came to fruition.

and then georgiy bushchan stepped in, ok, and got rid of a lot of the regulations because the republicans don't like regulations. and dogs were getting has loads and then we had the crash of 2008. who inherited that? obama. so obama got a scramble. and one color -- oh, the obama -- of course he did not do it by themselves. that is how it is set up. he works with congress. so basically had to bail out of the thanks again. all right. but then the economy started going great and obama brought it back after eight years. within literally within a couple of weeks, maybe a month, trump was taking credit for a great economy. look at me. i'm sorry. he did not. it was obama who brought it back from -- ok. all trump did primarily his whole campaign and listen, even have to believe me. it is all recorded. he either played golf he started campaigns almost a month after he was in office.

he started campaigning. just about to know whether he can cam does he can stand up and just -- host: ken, you are calling on the independent line. it sounds like you are not a supporter of former president trump. who did you vote for in 2020? who are you looking at for 20 [video clip]. caller: well, that is an obvious isn't it, i voted for biden and i will vote for biden again. i hope by the senators i'm so tired of these amateur psychologist and quite frankly this all started with that, you know, every one hairball -- everyone's hair is on her because biden had a few documents. he is investigated. there's a reporter comes in and is fbi agent who probably was a cyclic major in college. decided he was going to do his own psychological analysis of biden in the new in the republicans grabbed onto that so there we go. ok? host: we will move on to gary in kentucky on the democrats line. good morning, gary.

caller: yes. host: yup, you are on, gary. caller: yes, i'm calling to say all you people, vote for donald trump, praising himself to be jesus christ to check your bible. and you people who love trump, have you looked at any of his factories? check yourself. all you black people who are voting for trump. check yourself and see what he has done. he is putting the poor against the poor. he gives you nothing and getting paid to go out and say it, check yourself. check yourself and see what he is giving you and all of you and you are sitting to yourself, thank you. host: we have about 10 minutes left in this segment. coming in from sue be in writing, new jersey, she says, similar to many of my fellow

americans, i'm concerned about the direction our country has been having. present but does not look well enough to run again. former president trump looks out for his wealthy friends. it is a lose-lose situation. when in nebraska calling on the republican line, good morning, lu ann. caller: good morning. i cannot believe anybody would vote democratic the policies that are going on right now. people not being able to choose what -- you know, the policies. to be in doctrine, the parents not having the right to choose what their kids are learning. it should be just the core subjects like when i was a kid. mask, all of that stuff to. host: is that your top issue for campaign 2024? caller: no, i am voting for

trump. no, before tribhuvan became president, trump was well liked by all these people who hate him now. you have to look back to that. he also graduated from a finance business. he has made all of his money not with these people are doing. these illegals coming across the border are making it so hard to live because your taxes are being raised. obama divided this country. i got to say that. he is the one that has kids in cages. i think that we need to vote for donald trump. that is all i wanted to say. host: gary in kernersville, indiana, on the independent line. good morning, gary. caller: good morning, ma'am. i want to say you are a welcome

addition to the staff. i think you are a sweet young lady and your hair looks beautiful, by the way. host: thank you. caller: i want to point some things out. like, that lady from writing, that twitter feed, agree with everything she said. [inaudible] not worth my vote. and biden -- host: gary, you are breaking up. i think you have some bad reception. are you moving around. caller: can you hear me? >> a little bit better. caller: biden is -- and i'm voting for cornell west. i think he is the man for the job. this seems like the best opportunity for that. and another guy i think will do well is isaac's. that is all i want to say.

host: angellah in maryland calling on the democrats line. good morning, angela. caller: good morning. listening to these colors, prices go up. prices go down and as for president biden's age, i lived through reagan and he had alzheimer's in his second term. he defeated the soviet union and got the wall torn down. that is not why i called in. are called in a few just give me two minutes, please. on how to and the supreme court are just basically dismantling this country. project 2025, trump says he does not know about it. he is on videotape in 2022 at their dinner and he said how great they are and how they are working on the plans that would be the foundation for his presidency. not to mention his first term, people from the heritage foundation went over there to work for him. most of his executive orders were written by the heritage foundation. and 140 people from his last as restoration of working there now. so he does know all about 20 to

five and they are bringing it and the thing as far as the supreme court i mean, citizens united, legalized bribery to congress. roe v. wade overturning that, chevron case, dismantling the administrative state so that we could have dirty water and banned food and then -- bad food and then the last decision, the immunity for presidents, horrible, horrible. legalizing criminality for presidents. now, look, people, don't sit home and don't vote third party because of thomas and alito will be retiring and they're going to put two younger versions of themselves in that supreme court chair and it is 35 more years we won't have the supreme court. thank you. host: ron in california on the republican line. out, sorry, ron. there you are.

hi, ron. caller: ron from -- you know, i'm an old-time republican. reagan republican. i remember the days when there were great guys like bill tanner maier. we had bob smith of new hampshire. these guys are real character and they had on her. and even though they had extreme views, they could express it with love and to the whole country and they were considered the loyal opposition. today, we have got a despicable character who is sitting there with a lot of bad habits, bad character and he brings in another, that does the same thing. jd vance has a perfect way, like he won't have a debate with mis. the first thing he does is he follows the trumpet will.

change the subject and then every -- after he changes the subject, then he just does not answer the question. and then finally after he does not answer the question, that he blames somebody else for whatever there is an after it is all over, you don't know what he said and that is exactly the way trump operates. so it is time to decide in this country what kind of people we want. men, i'm a liz cheney, maybe a 13% of the republican party that needs to say, let's establish a more character in our party. let's go back to the good old days when we could say things that were excessive but honorable and that is all i really have to say. thank you. host: linda in new york on the democrats line. good morning, them in the. caller: hi, good morning. i'm going to be short. i just want to say that i would never vote for trump never. and i'm hoping that biden will

run. and i will run for biden if he runs or any other democrat that runs. ok. thank you. host: linzer cookie said he would vote for any democrat at the top of the ticket regardless of who it is? caller: regardless, yes. host: is vice president kamala harris your choice or would you like to see someone else? caller: i would like to see someone. yes, every word. host: mark in miami, florida on the independent line. good morning, mark. caller: good morning and thank you. just a few words about donald trump. a lot of people don't realize, what occurs to people to listen to your program and also if you are a devout republican or the far right person, go to cnn. go-to pp's.

go to msnbc. go to other sources. so you can really balance and see the truth. and i think having one of newsource is a very dangerous thing. donald trump, former president of the united states, the great uniter. let's not forget what he has to say about immigrants. what he has to say about lgbtq people. what he has to say about them because. look what. look what is done workers. i think the republican party has gone along with the counter because they're afraid of him. they're afraid of the map showing up at their work. but what is done to women. but look. luke waters into people who don't agree with him. anyone who disagrees with this guy. journalist. people with disabilities. look at how he has disparage that. this man is unfit. this man is indecent. this man does not stand for the constitution he is a disgrace. he is a loser. and i would vote for anybody except donald trump. actually, anybody but a

republican. i would encourage people not to vote for republicans at all because they are all in for anyone that donald trump wants. it is dangerous. is an american. thank you for your time. host: that does it for this first hour of today's "washington journal." next, we're going to be joined by listen first project founder and ceo pierce godwin. we're going to discuss efforts to bridge the political divide amid the current polarization of campaign 2024. and they are, historian and author elijah merritt is going to discuss his book this union among ourselves about the political divisions among the country's founders and what it can teach us about today's poku situation. we will be right back. . [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

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powered by cable. announcer: washington journal continues. host: welcome back. we are joined by pearce godwin, the founder and ceo of the listen first project. thank you for joining us. guest: thank you for having me. host: your organization looks at bridging the divide amid political polarization. tell us more. guest: yes, ma'am. listen first project serves as a backbone organization for the movement to save our country from tearing apart. including 500 organizations in the listen first coalition who are bringing americans together across divides. i am a guy who loves this country. i feel blessed to be in the united states of america. it is indeed an exceptional nation. we have such a rich variety of background and beliefs from sea to shining sea. it is indeed a great experiment.

it is unprecedented. it has never happened in the history of the world. as is painfully clear, it is not easy. like most folks, i am deeply concerned about our future. this toxic polarization has convinced us that our fellow americans are our enemies. that is a lie that threatens to destroy us. if you are watching this and like me you want peace in your family, you want calm in your community, unity in our country, and solutions to our problems, i want to give you a new sense of hope and opportunity to turn down the heat and find a way forward together. host: your organization is connected to 500 others, this coalition. who is part of that coalition and what is the mission? guest: yeah, the mission of the listen first coalition is to pursue social cohesion and collaboration.

to overcome this toxic polarization i'm talking about, the demonization across differences. there are many nonprofit organizations, libraries, universities, research institutions all having dedicated themselves to this mission critical work for our country. i have found over the years that more and more american heroes are dedicating themselves to saving our country from tearing apart and making america stronger by defeating toxic polarization. i want everybody watching to know about their efforts and be part of them. urban rural action brings together community members across racial and generational differences to build relationships to dialogue and take concrete action to make their community safer. helps people build the foundation for change in their community by foraging a lot of

unlikely relationships. just launched the american hope campaign to get us through this election season. common ground usa will be hosting the love anyway feast after election day to remind us of the power of community and offer an alternative to the divisive us versus them politics right now. another example, wrapped for america. this is particularly innovative and adventurous. we have red/blue pairs of every day americans and politicians getting in a raft, tackling the rapids on some of the most beautiful rivers all over the country. what a vivid demonstration of the fact that we are so much stronger and can be so much more successful pulling together than pulling apart. i'm excited to participate myself next month here in north

carolina. those are just a few examples of the efforts taking place across listen first coalition. there are several more, but i will share as we go on. host: you mentioned the efforts being made, but we are still seeing a political polarization. what is your assessment of the current situation, and what are some of the challenges in overcoming it? guest: so much of this is based in our human psychology. we have this wiring that has served us well over millennia to identify threats, retreat into what is called our in groups. get around people that look like us and think like us. those are primal instincts. the problem is, they have been activated against our fellow americans. this sense of fear and threat has been activated by so many factors across our environment. i've seen a list of 50 causes of

toxic polarization. the answer to each one of them is, yes, it is a wicked problem. it is a problem that has no easy solutions, but indeed it starts with us. i am terribly concerned as we advance through this election season that we are beginning to see signs of political violence. political violence is a heinous symptom of toxic polarization. that lie that our fellow americans are enemies can lead to political violence and threatens to destroy our nation. i think violence is beneath us as americans. it's weak. it is self-destructive. everybody loses when we turn to violence. it is so important that all of us stand united against clinical violence. indeed, the overwhelming majority of americans want to coexist peacefully with their neighbors and reject political violence.

the good news is for us, there are concrete things that you and i can do to move the country in a more positive direction. it starts with us suggesting four great ways for each of us to dirt down the heat in -- to turn down the heat and avoid political violence. one, be aware of how emotions can distort our thinking. i know they do for me. let's not try to equate the actions of individuals with entire political groups. let's watch out for false information and conspiracy theories. when we see information that provokes anger and fear, those primal instincts i'm talking about that can lead us astray in the society, let's look again. let's look into it more and be sure that it's true. that is not some important nuance missing. finally, pushback on divisive behavior. this takes courage.

there has been a lot of courage demonstrated over the history of the nation to get us to where we are today, and we need courage in ourselves now to get to the next 250 years of this country. we need to be courageous in criticizing divisive, dehumanizing rhetoric. especially among our political allies. that is where we will have the most influence and impact, with our own in group. let's step up among our friends and say, i don't think that that is the productive way to move us forward and make us stronger as a nation. host: we are talking with pearce godwin, the founder and ceo of the listen first project. the discussion is about his organization's efforts to bridge the political divide. if you have a question or a comment, you can start calling in now. democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001.

independents, (202) 748-8002. you just talked about having courage to pushback when we are having these conversations. for individuals, where is the line between having a healthy political debate and toxic polarization? guest: that is such a great question. i think it's critical to our democratic republic that we vigorously contest ideas and ideologies and political preferences and policy prescriptions. that is the lifeblood of this country. no one wants to tamp that down. i think we get into dangerous territory, self-destructive territory, when it becomes more about the person than the position. when we start robbing our fellow americans of their dignity. when we start insulting their character.

when we start dehumanizing them. that is when i think we've moved beyond a productive policy discussion and a vigorous, robust, even heated political debate, which we need to have in this country. that is where we get into the toxicity, the demonization across differences. that is what i see taking us in a direction that no american of goodwill wants to go. host: bringing our callers into the conversation. richard in north carolina on the republican line. good morning, richard. caller: please, don't cut me off. i have a few things to say. first thing is, the only violence being brought up is by the democrats. do you remember the summer of love they did? do you remember all that violence? did the democrats fire on trump's campaign? did the democrats put out a fake dossier about russia and the

media carried that for three years? the only ones doing it is the democrats. you guys are some evil people. very evil. host: we will go on to johnny in daytona beach, florida on the democrats line. good morning, johnny. caller: how are you doing? i have a question here. the division of america i think is due to the people doing the news. they are not reporting -- i would rather have a person that is a little senile than all of the factfinders show that trump lives all the time. -- lies all the time. i would rather have the truth than someone divisive. even the summer of love, that

was due to too many cops killing black people and they want to equate it to january 6. that's not. it was a real protest. trump has been lying about so many things. after you get him in office as a felon, that means that lil wayne can run as a felon. anyone can run as a felon because we don't need that anymore. host: pearce, do you have a response for our caller? guest: i do. both of these callers touched on really critical dimensions to this problem. one is the perfection gap that research shows we are dead wrong about those people. one of the most interesting facets of that research is the

more informed we are in the sense of following politics and following the news, the farthest off our perceptions of those people and what they believe are. he gets more complex when you talk about meta-misperceptions. we are in a loop where we are wrong about those people, whoever they are, or you, think about us. that creates a vicious cycle. also on the point of violence, that has been deeply caught in this perception gap. i want to share some fresh data with you all. stephen hawkings, the director of research at more in common, they conducted that perception gap studies, provided me with data to share with you and your viewers this morning. following the assassination attempt on president trump, there is a strong frustration among americans with the media

for thriving off of fear and division. both sides continue to vastly overestimate the other's support for political violence . following the horrific shooting last weekend, democrats expect for in 10 republicans believe "violence against democrats is now justified." nine in 10 republicans reject that idea. the polarization research lab previously found that americans incorrectly think that the other party's support for partisan murder is more than 20 times larger than it actually is. democrats think that 45% of republican support partisan murder, a view that is 21 times larger than the reality among republicans. republicans think 42% of democrats support partisan murder, 25 times larger than the reality. while the share of americans who support political violence is low, it's still representing

millions of americans. so the danger we face now is a cascade of growth of political violence out of a mistaken belief that, one, a lot of people on my side are willing to fight, or, two, a lot of people on the other team are going to be violent. both of those are wrong but broadly held misperceptions. it is absolutely critical in the weeks, months, and years ahead to make clear that violence is broadly rejected across all spectrums of politics and any other dimension of difference. it's best done by elevating the voices of everyday people across the political spectrum who can forcefully say, no, this is not who we are as americans. host: let's hear from rory in

wake forest, north carolina. good morning. caller: i agree that people do not want violence. i am a conservative republican. i'm as far right as they get. i have a 4x8 foot trump sign in my yard for everyone to see but i'm the last guy to want violence. the media, you are right. you think that we all hate each other according to the media. i want to give one very simple, great example. the debate a couple weeks ago. half of america, their head blew off, because they had never seen joe biden in that shape before. the other half that didn't blow off our conservative -- are conservative republicans who get real news.

not from cnn, regular radio, stuff like that. we knew that this guy was impaired. who covered it up for 3.5 years plus? the left-wing media. you should talk about that for a minute. why did everybody go nuts after seeing biden in that debate? he looked like a zombie. the republicans knew he was a puppet. why did emma kratz react like, oh my god -- did democrats react like, oh my god? host: got your point. guest: i love these calls from my fellow north carolinians. i began my career on capitol hill. there is a lot of politics that i love. certainly, from the beginning of time we've all had a political interest to elevate our assets

and accelerate and accentuate the flaws and liabilities of our opponents. i'm not going to make any comment on the specific merits or critiques of any candidate. that's not what my work is about. i do think that your caller from wake forest is making a critical point that kind of proves this idea, the balkanization of our media. the fact that we have very few outlets like c-span. i love being on this program, "washington journal," because you are genuinely speaking to and engaging in the conversation folks across the spectrum. how hard is that to find these days? we tend to be getting information from people who look like us, feel like us, and reinforce the biases i already

have. that can be nice and affirming and is certainly more comfortable than challenging some of those other beliefs that are less resonant with who we are, but it doesn't do us any favors in sharing a reality as fellow americans. that is what the caller is hitting on very well here. we can see the same event, the same politician, the same phenomenon in our country or around the world, and one person sees black and one person sees white, one person seems up and another seems down. it is remarkable and terrifying. there have been a number of events in recent years where that really struck me. where i understood fully, wow, we as fellow americans are not seeming to live in the same universe of reality, without me making any judgment on which reality israel.

-- which reality is real. the media has so deeply segmented and fragmented us we can look at one event and have vastly different reactions. totally contradictory. but be equally held with conviction and patriotism. it struck me over time that events and reactions to events, that one group of people may see as the opposite of patriotism, an abomination, criminal. another group may have sincerely held beliefs and motivation, it may actually be there heartfelt patriotism and love for this country that is animating this same action. until we start to slow down enough to listen with curiosity,

speak from our own experience, not just parroting what our favorite information outlets are sending our way, and connect with respect, i frankly don't know how we continue as a country as long as we are seeing things so radically differently. as long as we are perceiving the events around us from such vastly and contradictory perspectives, i don't know how we can move forward together. that is where i think, look, politicians and media respond to incentives. it is really not that complicated. they respond to incentives. i think it is on us, as voters and media consumers, to give them better incentives. until we fix that problem, there

is a good way to gain a clearer, better, more well-rounded and accurate -- we all want accurate information. none of us want to be misguided by our own biases or people feeding us information that is designed to phone meant that fear and animosity and sense of threat. i don't think that it's fun. i don't think many people enjoy feeling that way about their fellow americans. i waited check those feelings and find that they are not as well grounded as we think is just spending time with our fellow americans. spending time with those people. it may be that they are not as scary, as threatening, that they are patriotic americans just like we like to think about ourselves. they may have similar or vastly different experiences, but with

over 500 organizations and thousands of programs taking place in the listen first coalition and beyond, in communities across america, i have yet to see an example where a human being did not enjoy and appreciate, did not find deeply refreshing and hope-giving, an honest conversation with another human being. believe it or not, it tends to be a vastly different picture than is painted by the media and that we might paint in our own minds. my friend monica guzman, who wrote an incredible book on this topic, talks about how anything that is underrepresented in our daily lives, any types of people , those people or these groups who are not really around us in our daily lives, will be overrepresented in our imagination. that could become really scary. we can perceive them as one monolith that is out to get us.

out to defeat our own values and everything we hold dear. in my experience, and the fellow americans of all backgrounds and beliefs i've talked to, it is not that scary out there for people. we are all human beings. we all have dignity. in my opinion we are all created in the image of god. the threat and the fear that is drummed up by politicians, by media -- because we respond to it, we latch onto it, that's on us -- that is not what i feel when i engage with fellow americans. those people are more like me than i realize. host: anthony in arizona on the democrats line. good morning, anthony. caller: good morning. thank you team c-span. you have another north carolina person on the line.

first 20 four years of my life in fayetteville, north carolina. great people. i'm going to share with you three quick things. c-span has always been great for letting me share a few things with them. air supply released a great song in 1982. air supply is a band. two less lonely people in the world. that is where i first heard that song, in north carolina. so, what you were talking about, slowing down, and i write a lot. here is a quote. as the world human interaction speeds up and the way i think becomes factor and we have to react faster to responses from others, he who has the ability to slow down or she who has the ability to slow down, whoever it is will be the one who wins

today's transition. i reference that because, back to the beginning, two less lonely people in the world, we don't hear ourselves. we are at a point where i believe everything you tell me. that means, who's around me. i don't believe anything you don't tell me. your comments? guest: thanks so much for the call. yes. we have to slow down. we get ourselves so wrapped up, especially when events are happening so fast. there is a trend now, and i am part of it, of turning down the notifications on my phone. it is overwhelming.

there is so much happening in our communities, states, countries, around the world that we have an opportunity for those base instincts to be triggered every second of every day. for me to get into that fight or flight mode. i have learned personally, and it sounds like you have as well, that just slowing down, taking a beat, can change everything. can change how we perceive the world around us, how we perceive our own lives, how we perceive our neighbors and our fellow americans. i think it's critical. i think that you are so wise to point to that. when we don't slow down, when we see something happen and just react, we are going to tend to react from that place of fight or flight. from that place of fear and sense of threat. far too often, especially these days in light of the many

dimensions contributing to this toxic polarization, the threat that we see is in our fellow americans. we are jumping to conclusions. we are assuming motives. we are not suspending judgment. we are not leading with any sort of grace or benefit of the doubt. we are getting in a crouch for battle every time the next thing happens. every time the next thing is said. that is what our brains do. you are right on. the single best thing we can do to combat that is slow down. i would argue that the next best thing we can do is be curious, a little more thoughtful, and if all possible engage with a human being. not with our phones, not with our screens. engage with our neighbors.

see what they are thinking. that will help us slow down. that will enrich us and give us a greater, more realistic sense of the world around us. i would be willing to bet it would give us a sense that we are much more in this together than we feel like when everything is coming at us so fast and everything feels so dire and existential. host: let's hear from steve in kentucky on the republican line. good morning, steve. caller: thank you for taking my call. things in this country are dividing us for a reason. they are big issues. the issues are the debts. we keep printing money like it grows on trees or should we be fiscally responsible? people have different ideas. marriage, should it be between a man and a woman? people have strong ideas. transgender athletes, men competing against women sports. the list goes on and on.these

are big divisions . how are you going to get people to come together when there is a whole thing that they are thinking that you are destroying this country and the other side says the same thing and we both hold our convictions so strongly that there is really nothing that is going to change our minds to come to the other side, whichever side we are on. how do we get past that? does one side have to win and say that this is the best for the country, this is how we are going to do it, like it or leave? i don't know. you tell me. guest: such a great and important point. i want to be very clear. i and nobody i know is suggesting that anybody tamp down their convictions on any of these issues. we are not papering over real differences in opinion and in values. that animate these robust

debates. i think that it would be impossible and also unwise and un-american to ask anybody to change their sincerely held views. that is why we have a democratic republic, to settle those things peacefully in conversation and in the political process. so, diminishing anybody's stances and positions on any of the issues you outlined is not my suggestion. again, i don't think it is desirable. i will note that i think there is an incredible amount of encouraging research to demonstrate going back to the perception gap that we tend to dramatically exaggerate that gap. the degree of distance that there is on any of the issues. even the hot issues that you pointed to, we tend to be closer

together than we think we are. certainly a heck of a lot closer together than the media or our political actors with suggest we are. it takes engaging with one another, engaging in conversation, talking with people who oppose us on an issue and realizing there might be common ground here. more often then not, there is. that is on the position. continue to vigorously debate them, but let's do so together as opposed to lobbing grenades from our corner to your corner to the other corner. that is not going to get us anywhere. it is going to continue to have us in stalemate and degrade to toxicity that exists on these divisive issues. but that is not the key. the key is how we are looking at the people, not positions. you are so right in the sense that they are out to destroy me. they are out to destroy my views and my values.

we have to get beyond the sense that our fellow americans are our enemy if we hope for this country to succeed. it is that simple. i don't know how the united states of america finds a way forward together if we remain convinced by the lie, it is a lie, we talk to our fellow americans and we realize that the vast, vast majority of our fellow americans are not out to get us. they are not out to destroy us. we have all gotten caught in this toxic polarization vortex that turns each one of us into the worst version of ourselves, that leads us to demonize our fellow americans. that is not how normal people, how good patriotic americans, look at their neighbor, look at their fellow human beings. it is a lie that we are being fed and that we have to overcome

by engaging with one another more. diversifying the sources that we are getting for information. that is how. i think that it is on each one of us to look in the mirror and be the first mover if we have to be in our circle. i think that if we wait around for those people to come with an olive branch, especially if our perception of how they look at us is being filtered and distorted through the lens of media or politics, we are going to be sitting around for a long time and it has become a more dangerous place in this community for our families and communities. we have to demonstrate some patriotic courage ourselves and say i'm going to turn off those messages that i feel are eliciting so much fear and animosity in me. i just want to check it out of

my own integrity. i want to be sure i'm not being fed a lie. this guy pearce says maybe i am, so let me check it out. go engage with people who think differently on an issue, who vote differently than i do, who could see things differently than i do and let me see if they are really out to get me. do they really wish me harm or are they coming from a different place? if we are able to engage honestly out of goodwill, listen with curiosity, speak from our own experiences, and connect with respect, that is a vastly different picture of the dynamics at play between us and fellow americans. again, have no interest and frankly think that it would be a disservice to this democratic republic for any of us to say, i

am supposed to surrender my views on this position. not at all. this idea that just one side has to win -- when i think about this mission, when i think about turning down the heat and finding a way forward together, it is very common for folks to say, oh, hell no. not with those people. i have a lot of emotion around this. i love this country and i love my fellow americans and i want to see a stronger together, but i also go to pragmatism. what is the end game? what is the endgame? you, sir, touched on one that i shorthand as delusion. delusion, doom, duck, and dash are my shorthand to the objections to turning down the heat and finding a way forward together. delusion, things that animate

many of us that somehow, someway we are going to defeat those people. we are going to destroy their ideology. we are no longer going to have to deal with them or their values. we are going to win the next election, the next debate, and we will stand victorious. with all due respect, i think it is delusional. look at this country. look at the rich variety of backgrounds and beliefs. that's not going to happen. look at the last several decades. there's not going to be one ultimate victory for one side over the other. that is not how we get out of this mess. the other three quickly, doom is folks who say all hope is lost. we are in revocably destined for another civil war. i don't know about you, but i am not going to sit back and passively resigned myself to that fate. duck, i have to be honest with

you all, i am tempted by duck every day. what i mean by that i jus -- what i mean by that is just shut it all out and remove ourselves from the conversation. hunker down with our closest friends and family, because all that is too destructive and too hot and too upsetting. i get the impulse to just duck down and cut it all out of our lives. but there's no way that we move forward as a healthy and prosperous society, as a united states of america, if we are further isolating and close during ourselves and one another. finally, dash. they are folks ready to physically go and have a plan to leave this country if things get worse. that is not what we want. that is not what we want in this exceptional nation is people feeling like they have to leave

because we can't figure it out and find a way forward together. i think the much better and more hopeful path forward is to listen with curiosity, speak from our own experience, to connect with respect, and deal with our differences, and deal with our debate, and disagree better as fellow americans and human beings. host: people who are listening to this conversation and thinking, i do want to engage with people who may have different opinions, where do they start? where can i go to find these coalitions to connect with those kinds of people? guest: most simply, i want you to go to listenfirstproject.org right now and join the movement by signing the pledge. if you do so, i will personally email you and connect you with an effort that fits your interest.

go to listenfirstproject.org, join the movement, sign the listen first pledge, and let me connect you directly. also, i want to share several other quick actions. we talked about the three tips for your daily life. listen with curiosity, speak from your own experience, connect with respect. i highly suggest people follow it starts with us on social media chris taylor content and inspiration. watch the film. read the fantastic new book, facing the fracture. go to trustmap.org, this is so cool, to see how your neighborhood stacks up on trust and how it can build. you can discover upcoming events across the whole coalition on citizen connect. again, if you only do one thing, go to listenfirstproject.org and

let me personally reach out and plug you into this hopeful movement. if i may, i would like to give a few more examples among elected officials and young people of the incredible work that these heroes across listen first coalition are doing. the common ground scorecard is a place where you can go and see how those elected officials, and the senate, the house, our governors, those in the white house, are doing on this mission. are they seeking common ground? the top scorers with 110 are congressman mike waller, davis, don bacon, susie lee, and senator maggie hassan. disagreebetter.us, led by utah governor, a republican who just ended his chairmanship of the nga, led a disagree better initiative and they got so many of our nation's governors to

record bipartisan videos calling us all to our better angels, calling us to disagree better. i highly recommend checking out and sharing those videos of our governors talking about what i and your viewers want to see happen in this country. i want you to know about the future caucus. it is activating young legislators to bridge the partisan divide and lead a new era of collaborative governance. they have their future summit next week convening hundreds of these young lawmakers who are putting country over party. in congress, the building civic urges act has been introduced by a bipartisan group of lawmakers led by derek kilmer. it provides federal funding to expand bridge building efforts that strengthen our country. and the north carolina representative and jared lowery did bipartisan skydiving, taking this patriotic mission to a whole new level. in leak, i want you to know about young people getting

engaged in this work. that gives me so much hope. as the american exchange project, it is sending high school seniors on a free week-long trip in the summer after they graduate to an american hometown that is radically different from their own. this summer, 500 kids are taking 63 exchange trips across 36 states. the founder says, aims for this senior exchange is for it to become as normal as senior prom. we have seen the conflict on campuses across america in recent months. bridge usa has more than 10,000 students engaged in bridging divides on campus across 75 college and high school chapters. finally, there is a new student orientation program based on the new film "jesters and fools"

featuring comedians addressing toxic polarization. i was talking about skydiving, raft for america, with this film, we have to slow down, lighten up, learn to laugh and enjoy each other, and learn to have fun. there are so many great examples of that taking place. if i can leave folks with just a couple of things, it would be to practice these three tips in your daily life. listen with curiosity. speak from your own experience. connect with respect. listenfirstproject.org, sign the pledge, and i will get you plugged into what must suture interest. there are so many incredible opportunities. i think we have to slow down. we have to slow down, as the caller suggested. i think that we should each look in the mirror. ask ourselves a pivotal question.

are we going to fight against our fellow americans or fight for america? if enough of us choose to see dignity across differences, and seek to find a way forward together, america's future will be bright. host: we want to get in one last quick call from your neighbor in south carolina, suzanne on the democratic line. a quick call, we are short on time. caller: a quick question. i am a clinical social worker with a masters degree and have been practicing for over 25 years. i see a lot of people in the lgbtq community. they come to me feeling marginalized, severely marginalized, because their life is not respected and they don't feel safe in their communities, especially in very red states.

there is current legislation that will criminalize their behavior. by criminalizing their behavior and incarcerating them, that is another form of violence. i would like to dig deep a little bit and think about how these children i am seeing, these teenagers, are to respond to someone who does not see them as equal. host: quick response for suzanne? guest: yeah, thank you, suzanne. we are not seeing each other and we are not treating each other as human beings. there is a conversation to be had around various policies and various ways to deal with really difficult complex issues. for me, the starting point is

seeing the dignity in our fellow americans of all backgrounds and beliefs and orientations and lifestyles. i think that is where it starts. it's on us, as i said. that thing that is in all of our bathrooms, that mirror, is the only place i know to start. there may be people who are not ready. are not coming from a place of goodwill. who don't have the disposition, the love for their fellow man at this point in time, to engage productively in some of these really challenging, really personal conversations. based on my experience in my years as a human being, i think when we do engage with one another, we listen with

curiosity, and we really want to understand somebody's life, where they are coming from, what makes them tick, how they grew up, the values they hold, what faith they may hold, it is a game changer, a whole different ballgame. it is so easy for us to spew vitriol from behind our political positions, from behind our keyboards. sometimes, that hurts. that hurts really bad, and nobody should have to feel that. nobody should ever, and the united states of america, the most materially prosperous nation on the planet, nobody should have to feel the pain of that dehumanization. but we are doing that to each other. that is what we are doing to each other right now, and we have got to stop. we have got to stop or we are

going to hurt each other as individuals and destroy this country that we love. host: piers goodwin, the founder and ceo of the listen first project -- pearce godwin, the founder and ceo of the listen first project. thank you so much for joining us and for this conversation today. guest: thank you for having me. host: still ahead on "washington journal" this morning, we are going to be joined by political historian and author eli merritt to discuss his book "disunion among ourselves" and look at the political divisions among the countries founding fathers and what it can teach us about today's political polarization. first, we want to hear from more of you during our open forum. here are the lines on your screen. (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001.

independents, (202) 748-8002. we will be right back. ♪ announcer: c-span now is a free mobile app featuring your unfiltered view of what's happening in washington, live and on-demand. keep up with the biggest events with live streams from the u.s. congress, the court, campaigns, and more from the world of politics at your fingertips. you can stay current with the latest episodes of "washington journal" and find scheduling information for the tv network and c-span radio, plus podcasts. c-span now is available at apple store and google play. scan the qr code to download it for free today or visit c-span.org/c-spannow, your front row seat to washington, anytime, anywhere.

announcer: book tv, every sunday on c-span2, features leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books. at 8:00 p.m. eastern, david table with his book "vision: a memoir of blindness and justice." he talks about the impact of his blindness on his personal and professional life. at 9:00 eastern we re-air our interview with republican vice president candidate j.d. vance talking about his book "hillbilly elegy" or calling his childhood in a rustbelt town in ohio. and on afterwards, the book "the indispensable right" hilighting individuals who fought to defend fre speech. he is interviewed by nadine. watch book tv every sunday on c-span2. find a full schedule on your

program guide or watch online anytime at the tv.org -- at book tv.org. >> the house will be in order. announcer: this year, c-span celebrates 45 years of covering congress like no other. since 1979, we have been your primary source for capitol hill, providing balanced coverage of government, taking you to where the policy is debated and decided with the support of america's cable company. c-span, 45 years and counting, powered by cable. announcer: "washington journal" continues. host: we are in open forum for the next 20 minutes or so. we will start with david in texas on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. i have a couple of things that i would like to get to before hang up time.

firstly, listening to the previous guy come his organization needs to change its name. listen first, all he did was talk. it was like a 1:10 ratio. his second to last call, two minutes of him saying -- two minutes of someone saying something in 20 minutes of him talking. it was like an infomercial. i wanted to ask him about, there is such a thing as objective truth. everyone doesn't believe it, but there is objective truth. you have a presidential candidate, president biden, who made it clear that the reason he ran for president was because of charlottesville, virginia and the idea of having someone come as he put it, like donald trump who is a racist, etc., etc. based on what was pretrade by the media. three days before the debate, one of the biggest fact

checking organizations, and like most of them kind of left-leaning, acknowledged that the entire thing was a hoax. that it was misleading. that a couple of weeks proceeding, that they had taken his words out of context. they included a video clip showing the parts that had been omitted by all of the media for all of those years, creating thousands of lies, where he literally condemned the nazis and white supremacists totally. that is left out every time. all anyone has to do is watch the entire clip. not the one that is put out there and used by all the media. the question that happened the day after that was, why did snopes wait so long to do it just before the debate?

the best informed speculation was they wanted to put it out there as a warning for joe biden not to use it. j capper, one of the debate hosts, actually debunked it himself. he knew it was fake. yet, he didn't say anything about it. i am a trump supporter. he did a poor job of pushing back against that. he should have mentioned the snopes fact checking company and directed everybody to it. there is an organization called walk away that started many years ago. headed by a guy who was always a very left-wing democrat, believed everything, all that stuff, until he saw the full video after being convinced trump was a racist based on what was presented by that lie. he saw the video. like the other guy was saying come he questioned. he started questioning and looking at other things that had been taken out of context.

he formed an organization that had thousands of democrats change parties. he led demonstrations in san francisco. the objective truth is the issu e. i don't hear anything from anybody, especially when it is something that conforms so much with something i'm thinking, that i don't check to be sure there is not much more to the story. host: i got the point, david. keith in denver on the democrats line. caller: i agree with my friend on the others of the aisle that there is objective truth. c-span, i know that you're unfiltered, but there are times when you can callout the objective truth. the objective truth is trump lies more than any candidate in u.s. history. that is an objective truth by historians.

it is in your own surveys. when they say the election was stolen and you put on the susa to promote a book that has been retracted by the publisher. the publisher apologized. c-span, you can have him on again and you owe your audience an apology. when they call in sighting 2000 meals it is inherent upon you to say not only has that been debunked, the publisher has pulled the book. you can do a lot of good by just sharing an objective truth. one other thing that i want to say about the last guest as well. i wish that people were familiar with the tolerance paradox.

it's philosophical and psychological, a paradigm model. thank god for those of us with college educations because it states that when a society practices tolerance inclusive of the intolerant. intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerance and practice of tolerance with them. as a 64-year-old african-american, born into jim crow, which was led by conservatives, as a gay man when conservatives did lawrence v texas to try to allow police to come into my house and bedroom to make sure i was not having gay sex, that was the bush administration.

those intolerant acts are a direct threat to me. host: that was keith in denver. north carolina on the republican line, good morning, kelly. caller: hi. thank you for taking my call. i was calling to talk about the truth also. i wish i would have got on with mr. godwin. our problem today is truth. we need everyone to tell the truth. both sides. and, there was an act put into law called the smith mundt act. this was sometime back around 2011 or 2012.

what it does is allows our government to use propaganda on the american people. and ever since then i have seen things going crazier and crazier and crazier. they are allowed to lie to us every single day. it is legal. they have been doing it. both sides. all of them. they have been doing it, news and propaganda on the american people. host: that was kelly in north carolina. some news to share from the washington post. sheila jackson lee outspoken texas congresswoman dies at 74. the article says during her three decades in the was house of representatives she became

one of the most prominent black members of congress and a ubiquitous champion of packaging in american -- african american women's rights. she died in houston at 74 years old. her death was confirmed by her family. representative jackson lee announced in june she had pancreatic cancer and had been treated years earlier for breast cancer. one other note. the headline, thousands gathered at banquet hall to celebrate the life of former fire chief killed at the trump rally. the article says thousands of mourners filled -- filed into pennsylvania's banquet hall to remember former fire chief fatally shot during the attempted assassination of former president donald trump, who sent a note of condolence hailing him as a hero.

let's hear from james in memphis, tennessee on the democrats line. good morning, james. caller: good morning. i want to say we have had political violence ever since george washington. we had it even with james madison and andrew jackson. the thing i want to focus on the most is that donald trump kind of deceived himself and reaping the cd planted which is violence. see -- seed he planted himself which is violence. he spoke about the bible. he spoke a lot about god. well, one of the seven things god despises is a lying con. they need to kind of lessen

that before they talk about the bible. people say joe biden is too old. joe biden is old, but so is donald trump. even though joe biden is old, i look at it like noah. noah was 480 years old when god came to him to build the ark. it took him 120 years to build the ark. he was 600 years old. he wasn't too old to save all the animals, save his family and build a big ark of the size god had him built. joe biden is not too old to build america back up to where it used to be and unify the country. you have to say one of them is a unifier and one of them is a divider. which one do you think -- this is a question for the republicans.

which one do you think is really the divider? thank you. host: tevarez in athens, georgia. independent line. caller: good morning. i'm sorry to hear about representative sheila jackson lee. she has been a career politician of 30 years. was she vaccinated? glad to see you. our favorite host on c-span. how much do i love c-span? i love c-span immensely. six quick points if i could. host: six? caller: love the white nails, tammy. the information that transpires in 30 days is too much. host: are you still there? caller: i'm still here. i'm still here.

host: we have some other callers lined up so make your point. caller: i do apologize. i thought i got cut off. we need to get [indiscernible] the reality of the debate, as my friend from wake forest was saying, it was already there. all you had to do was pay attention. number three. career politicians are trying to push out joe biden in the same manner they try to prosecute donald trump. the coverage of the rnc by c-span is par for the course. you guys are the standard to beat. nobody can beat you guys because you guys are not trying to brainwash and not trying to manipulate. you are allowing people to watch the government in action. number five. greta and susan swain, they did the fundraiser. as a contributor my question is, listeners and callers, you can donate. go to c-span.org.

hit that donation button and drop one dollars, five dollars, $10. due to hundred dollars like tava rez. how much have we raised and what is the goal? c-span has been a social media for the last 13 or 14 years. i just got on social media in the last year. i have been on c-span, facebook, washington journal. the conversation is intense. it is invigorating and intelligent overall. if you have not logged on to c-span's washington journal, get in on the conversation. i have not made it over to x but i will. this is my new phrase. are you ready? host: go ahead. caller: if you don't watch or listen to c-span, you ain't an american citizen. talk to you later. host: let's hear from roxanne in wisconsin on the democrats line. good morning, roxanne. caller: yes.

are you speaking to me? my name is roseann. host: i'm sorry. roseann, go ahead. caller: thank you for taking my call. i am talking about this trump-biden presidency where we are all kind of my goodness, we have old men. trump is an isolationist. i don't know how you can go back to that in this day and age when the country was built on the inception of the country was the hopes of being a democracy. everything we have today was built on immigrants. the chinese built the railroads. black people, my goodness. thank you for everything you have done and build for this country -- built for this country. white supremacy is unbelievable to me. our founding fathers were slaveowners. they really did not -- what am i

trying to say here? the black man was less than the white man. i mean, you can't -- a reflexive upon the white man as being -- i'm sorry to say -- lazy. we don't want to do our work so we are going to enslave all these people to do our work for us. historically, you can go back to where we got our slaves from africa. it all boils down to money and power. the leaders of these countries sold out their own black people to come here to do the work for us. i don't even know where we are going. as far as ai is kicking in now, they are expecting people -- machines to do our work for us.

you know, that is something to reflect upon. when 40% of all of our jobs were taken away by ai, what is going to be left? we have got to get along. we are still in an age of racial divide and money and greed. host: that was roseann. we will go to victoria in florida on the independent line. good morning, victoria. caller: good morning. i want to tell about objective truth. david king, the niece of art and luther king, says her uncle martin was a republican until the day he died. there is no -- no arguing with that. as far as biden, he was always a

racist in the back. he was against busing. he was against integration in schools. this is all fact. he said once his boys will not go to a racial jungle, which is how he described going to school in those days when it was integrated. his children were little then. he also was friends until the day he died with senator byrd, who was a recruiter in the ku klux klan. he was friends with him. biden gave the eulogy for him when he was vice president. there isn't any changing of stripes for biden. he has always kept black people down. he is responsible as incentive for the present program that put blacks away for life. three strikes you're out.

trump undid that. he funded anything that was racist. he was the reason they were people i got out of jail after being there wrongly for 20 years, 30 years. he pardoned any people. -- many people. he is trying not to be a segregation of any kind. he's not against immigration except illegal immigration. people have to come here illegally because the country cannot survive if everybody pushes in at once. we are already overwhelmed. the schools are overwhelmed. the hospitals are overwhelmed. even prisons are overwhelmed. we don't know who is coming in. over 2 million were able to get in that were not able to be seen. it was a definite tragedy. host: a couple of programming

notes for c-span coverage this afternoon. 2024 republican president not -- president on the many and hi vice presidential pick j.d. vance will hold a campaign rally in grand rapids, michigan. this will be their first rally ter officially accepting the nominations. you can watch the event live starting at 5:00 p.m. eastern on c-span, c-span now, and online at c-span.org. al o monday, after last weekend's attended assassinatio of former president donald trump, secret service dr. kimber cheatle is set to testify on security lapses that may havled to that shooting. you cawatch the house oversight and reform committee searing live o monday at 10:00 a. eastern. you can watch it on c-span2, span now and also on

c-span.org. time for a couple more calls. elizabeth from silver springs, maryland, democrats line. good morning. caller: hello. host: you are on. caller: ok. i am watching the television and i thought it would be real-time. i am calling because my mom watches c-span all the time. it just dawned on me this morning when i walked into her place that maybe this was the platform i could express my real disappointment and amazement with american media. the fact that they could just harold and wave this banner regarding biden and completely drop -- if you're going to be concerned about biden, be

concerned, but don't just drop the reality of so much dishonesty, failures, fraudulent, and disruption of his opponent. this is crazy to me. it is like they had the wool pulled over their eyes and they are walking in some other alternative reality. we are dealing with someone -- forget biden being slow. i prefer a slow peaceful man over a violent, rambunctious, lying individual any day. i don't understand where the -- what the real problem is. i don't think democrats should turn their backs on joe biden the way they have at the 11th hour.

it makes no sense to me. host: that is elizabeth in maryland. that is our last call in this open forum segment. next on washington journal we will be joined by political historian and author eli merritt . he will discuss his book, “disunion among ourselves." it's about the political division among the country's founding fathers and what it can teach us about today's political polarization. we will be right back. ♪ >> book tv every sunday on c-span2 features authors discussing their latest nonfiction books. at 8:00 p.m. eastern, former d.c. appellate judge david jaddle with his book "vision."

he talks about his blindness on his personal and professional life. 9:00 p.m. eastern, our 2017 interview with republican vice presidential candidate j.d. vance talking about his book "hillbilly elegy," talking about his childhood in ohio. at 10:00 p.m. on afterwards, professor jonathan jurley shares his book, "the indefensible right." he's interviewed by civil liberties union former president nadine straussen. find a full schedule on your program guide or watch online anytime at booktv.org. >> nonfiction book lovers, c-span has a number of podcasts for you. listen to best selling nonfiction authors and influential interviewers on the afterwards podcast. on q&a, hear wide-ranging

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45 years and counting, powered by cable. >> washington journal continues. host: joining us now is eli merritt, a political historian and also the author of “disunion among ourselves." the perils of politics of the american revolution. also author of "american, wealth -- commonwealth." thank you for joining us. guest: good to be with you. host: what with the founding fathers say about the current state of political polarization in the u.s.? guest: i feel with confidence based on my book and research i have done that the number one thing they would say and repeat over and over again is we are getting something incredibly wrong about democracy or a democratic republic.

they would say civility is equally as important as the constitution in maintaining a republic or a democracy. they would say what we are getting most incorrect, dangerously incorrect, is the prevalence and pervasiveness of demagoguery in american clinical discourse and the presence of demagogues in the political system and our media systems. most importantly, they would be shocked to find that we have recently elected the first demagogue as president of the united states and that demagogue is on course now to, as we all know, donald trump, to become president again. their insight would be to say we have not studied and understood

democracy well enough to understand demagogues bring down democracies. we can talk about what that process is. for anyone -- for further clarification of what demagoguery is and what a demagogue is, a demagogue is a political figure ora media figure specific -- or media figure who practices fear mongering and hatemongering, division, bigotry, disinformation and demonization as a method to gain political power or sustain clinical power. it's an achilles of democracy that this method -- achilles' heel of democracy that this sometimes works. once a demagogue is deep into the skin or the brain or the neuroscience of the brain it is possible to frighten people into

voting for a strong mentor demagogue -- strongman or demagogue. that is what they would say. they would say we need to get to work immediately on a vast and profound mitigation project with regard to demagoguery and demagogues. this is what causes polarization. host: your book came out last year, “disunion among ourselves ." tell us about your book and why you chose to write about that topic. guest: the story of how i got interested in that topic has a lot to do with the history of our country and where the north-south civil war actually originated. as i began to look at the early records of the founding period, i found in fact that the greatest fear of the founders --

we tend to think and historians have long handed down there greatest fear was the british army and navy. certainly at that time in the 1770's and 1780's the greatest and mightiest military and political force on earth was the british army. there was something to fear. if you look at the records, you find the greatest fear was that something would happen within the federal government at that time. the government then was donnelly composed of the continental congress. they figured something would happen in the continental congress that would cause the breaking apart of the original 13 colonies, later described as states. they would form separate confederations, separate countries. what is the problem with that that instead of forming one united states we formed two or three separate nations or confederations?

it might have been very natural in terms of their understanding of democracy and the differences between new england and the middle colonies and the southern colonies. there greatest fear was they were going to end up fighting and civil wars. they had all manners of unresolved problems among them. they feared the finances of the nation, the debt they owed france and some to spain and commerce on rivers, commerce and land and the disposition of lands in the country -- there was a lot of unclaimed land -- who was going to get it? they did not result these differences through the remediating process of the central government, they were certain they would fight civil wars. that is the central conclusion. what was that something they could happen in the continental congress that could lead to a breaking apart of the government? i posit to you it was the pursuit of one of the geographic regions or the others. highly explosive topics such as

trade differences, slavery, and also to repeat my earlier findings about the founders, they feared demagogues and demagoguery ate its way into the government that would be a crucial force to break apart the government and lead to what is a three stage chain reaction. division and demagoguery breaks apart the unit states. that lease to the formation of two or three separate confederations and then they fight civil wars. in the book i call that shotgun wedding, leading to a shotgun marriage that the founders and their various 13 colonies stayed together because they felt they had no other option. that is the great finding of my book. that is the unique angle i have taken. no one has written about that thing before. host: how do your findings, your book, what you talk about

compare to what we are seeing today? did you find any similarities? guest: well, there are a number of similarities. in general, democrats and republican forms of government are not unique in the way they operate. to repeat myself, but they feared the most was an approach the politics which was fear mongering and hatemongering. they feared what happened most nominally then was a demagogue would rise up, declare himself in that time against the federal government in the attempt, and frankly one of the greatest fears was patrick henry might do that and it attempt to form a southern confederation. that is somewhat similar to what we are encountering today. not precisely. our government is more coherent.

there is less fear today. it was very fragile then. it was not inevitable we would form one country. we are one united states now. we hear talk of disunion. we hear talk of secession. we are hearing way too much talk about the prospect of civil war. they legitimately feared the toxicity dig got great -- demagoguery with the to the breaking apart of the government. today we in some ways unfortunately don't deeply understand the risks are current forms of demagoguery and polarization, what the outcomes can be. we are living in a more secure and unified democracy now. part of that was determined by the civil war. the question of can a dissatisfied section of the country withdraw from the country on the basis of a sense of right. that was solved by the civil war.

the constitution is not entirely clear on that but abraham lincoln made clear for whatever dissatisfactions secession will not be permitted. today we are looking at -- we talk a lot about polarization. we need to. i believe, and again i often like to think of myself as an ambassador for the founders because i have learned most about their political theories by studying the 1770's and 1780's. i think they would look and say and conclude that profit driven demagoguery in our society and demagoguery that leads to the acquisition of power -- i'm referring to the clinical system and our media systems -- this demagoguery leads to not just polarization and not just hyper polarization but i think we all know now and in particular after the january 6 assault on the capitol and there are recent

assassination attempt on donald trump, it leads to a place of a life-and-death polarization. those are parallels. all democracies are corrupt of these interests. that is what it is very important that when you are structuring a democracy in the form of checks and balances that one of the most important goals is to exclude demagogues and demagoguery from the body politic. host: we are talking with eli merritt, author of “disunion among ourselves: the perilous politics of the american revolution," about his books and what can teach us about today's political polarization. if you have a question, you can start calling in. democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002.

you talked about the country coming together despite their differences. we did unite. we are the united states. what was the ultimate motivation? what brought those colonies together? guest: very good question. in some ways that takes place in stages. i think -- we think of 45 or 50 founders at the constitutional convention of 1787. the truth is if you look at the service in the continental congress already -- starting in 1774 there were several hundred. i believe we brought them together here and ask them the question, they would all say, what brought us together was the fight for liberty, justice and ultimately independence from the british. the circumstance of the 1760's

and 1770's, a couple of things. one is that the 13 colonies had somewhat come to a place of maturity and capacity for independence. they were ready to not be treated as second-class citizens. that is the theme we see throughout all of our history. when individuals rise up against the establishment is a desire to no longer be treated as second-class citizens. we know this ultimately in the long journey and ongoing journey of african-americans in the united states to no longer be treated as second-class citizens. other people of color and of women to the longer be treated as second-class citizens. the fact is that the colonists of the 1770's and 1780's felt categorically like they were being treated as second-class citizens on many fronts.

importantly, they had no representation in the overarching government which determine the course of their lives. that was the parliament in great britain. this led them to demand from great britain and the parliament and king george iii equal rights and an end to the second-class citizen three of the colonists -- citizenry of the colonists. the seven parliament and the stubborn king george wanted to perpetuate the second-class citizenry of what was then white male ownership and expand later to the concept of second-class citizenry. they banded together. it was the fight for liberty and justice and equality. ultimately independence initially united them. look at what happens once we have an end to the war of

independence in the founders and the continental congress are on the brink of victory in the war and the peace treaty. you lose this binding force of the war to unite the founders and congress. that was a time of extraordinary peril from 1781 to 1783. they no longer have the war of independence as their unifying force. they have to find others. one of which is they did indeed want to become one of the greatest nations that ever existed on the planet. that was the plan of the founders in 1770's and 1780's. then again, you make reference to my book, i call the key idea the survivalist interpretation of the american revolution. they could not come up with the an alternative. for many reasons the natural outcome after the war of independence had been them breaking into probably three

different confederations. new england, the middle states and the southern states as i hope i communicated successfully. they felt they could not do that. envision the founders in their congress or in the continental congress as trying to work out their problems. what you got outside is guns lined up against them. that is the idea of the shotgun marriage. either they got married or they were going to step out after the war of independence and have what many of the founders said you will have a much worse and bloody were on your hands if you don't successfully unite. that was protecting civil wars over land contest between the states and possibly land contests over the acquisition of the millions of acres of land. the peace treaty of 1783 we obtained all the land from the appalachian mountains to the mississippi river, doubling the size of the country. who was going to get that land?

they needed once again to have a government to resolve those questions peaceably rather than without a central government. we note anything about human nature in history, men primarily fight wars over land. host: we have several callers waiting to ask you questions. we will start with adriana in los angeles on the democrats line. good morning, adriana. caller: how are you this morning? i have been listening to the speaker and i would like to know if he can make three or four citations in any of the documents of the 1700s which use the word demagogue. he used the term frequently. i think i would like to hear more about that. guest: that is a wonderful question. i'm very glad you're asking that. one place where we find the use of demagogue that is perhaps not

surprising is in 1787 -- most people know that george washington served for nine years as commander-in-chief and then retired. legitimately retired. he did not want to -- he had given so much of the american revolution that he went into retirement. 1783. by 1786 and 1787, the original 13 colonies under our first constitution, the articles of confederation, was spiraling apart. only after two weeks at the philadelphia convention in june of 1787, washington wrote two letters to the marqeta lafayette who many people know as his right-hand man, one of the most important aides. he said i'm actually out of my retirement because the people have lost confidence in our constitution. there is instability. i fear a demagogue -- he used

the word demagogue will emerge or arise and that will end up pursuing selfish ends instead of altruistic ends and that will potentially lead to the downfall of the new country. another example of this is the constitution was completed in september of 1787. in october, many people know these things called the federalist papers. it's about 85 letters written by alexander hamilton, john jay and james madison persuading americans not to disband into separate confederations but to form one country. alex enter hamilton in federalist 1 and federalist 85 romines the people of that time, 1787. it reminds us now you must adopt a central government that has some strength, because

demagogues are extraordinary risks. he worried -- as i mentioned earlier, a demagogue would arise and encourage the people to form separate confederations and that would lead to civil war. my favorite talk over the past few years goes by the title of "alexander hamilton's theory of democratic collapse." i will try to be brief as i described this. the great fear the demagogue was two things. one is that the demagogue, the fear mongering, the hatemongering and demonization an us versus them thinking basically damages the spirit of the people. if rank them apart, causes the hyper polarization. that's a bad enough damage that a demagogue does. even more significantly and more catastrophically for democracy once a demagogue is in the power, what happens? they drink from the cup of power and what do we know the foremost

principles and offputting philosophy is that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. that is why the executive power is so dangerous. what happens to the demagogue? do they soften and decide i will step out of office peacefully? the demagogue already has an incredibly compromised moral compass. once power is added to the negative office, the theory is that the demagogue turns into authoritarianism. the famous quote is you may come in a demagogue but you exit a tyrant. that is one of those important political theories and all of our studies of history and one we need to deeply take the heart today and the vast importance of mitigating demagoguery and demagogues' presence of the foot and the media system. i think that is the most important projects we need to be

working on in the coming decade. i thought to myself recently lyndon johnson launched the great society project in the 1960's. we need something akin to the great society projects, specifically focused on restoring civility and a splitting demagogues and demagoguery because civility in a democracy is equally as important as the constitution and maintaining the stability and health of the democracy. host: let's hear from dan in palm bay, florida, republican line. caller: hi. is he talking about donald trump being a demagogue or the media being a demagogue? guest: good question. i should have clarified something you are bringing up. it's a very common -- maybe it's how i pronounce it. not demigod. it is demagogue.

it is a demagogue. i really am -- i care about our democracy and constitution and civil political discourse more than i care about anything. everyone may have a little partisan vote within them but when i talked about the importance in our democracy of mitigating and exclude demagogues from the presidential pipeline, i'm talking equally as much about. democrats and republicans that said, i will say authoritarian type presidents, people the jackson as a demagogue on a 4.5 or 5. nixon had more authoritarian tendencies then demagoguery but he had some of that too. i will overstate it. the fact is that donald trump is an extra nearly talented

demagogue. -- extraordinarily talented demagogue. i don't use that word in a critical way. i use it to describe a specific actor within a democracy. he is talented to the nth degree in demagoguery. i think of him as a turbocharged demagogue. the problem is that the vulnerability that democracies have going back to ancient athens is demagogues through the process i described. alexander hamilton's theory, demagogues do bring down marcy's. -- democracies. an agent at the -- in ancient athens they had the idea of building a democracy on monday, all these people will participate, our friends in togas will give speeches and the people will vote. by thursday, they were saying what have we done?

my gosh. that is where the invented almost medially the word demagogue, to recognize demagogues who use these unfortunate talents of fear mongering, hatemongering, division, demonization, etc. to do harm to democracy. yes, i'm talking about donald trump it only because he is the best people are going to be studying donald trump for as long as democracy survives and books are allowed to be written. there is freedom of conscience and independent study. i think in the next 500 years people will be studying donald trump as the most remarkable classic case of a demagogue in at least modern history. host: robert in lake jackson, texas, independently. -- independent line. caller: hello and good morning

to my fellow americans. thank you for taking my call. i wanted to ask a few questions to mr. merritt. my first question. in regards to president washington, he read his farewell address and i want to direct your attention [indiscernible] he warned about the formation of political parties in the united states. i wanted to know if you believe as i do that we ignored his warning and allow political parties to form because the political parties by their nature include and encourage demagoguery and that i want to

know if you believe that we should abolish political parties to correct the country's course. my second question is more of a hypothetical in regards to the current circumstances. my hypothesis is if the electoral college somehow by some chance [indiscernible] an even split of a majority to cause -- let's say the majority split between robert kennedy and marion williamson and causes donald trump to lose, does that cause a runoff election or the the and senate taken from their -- take it from there?

i will give you the floor to answer that. guest: i think those are great questions. i am pleased as punch you broader political parties. indeed, the founders were worried about political parties because of this process of polarization and the sectarian nation of human beings and the ease with which demagogues and the art of demagoguery can poison these groups. that said, they did correct the electoral college for many reasons. it was a check on the rise of demagogues, authoritarians and corrupt individuals into executive power. that's failed but that's another long conversation to discuss why so quickly the electoral college disappeared in its efficacy. one reason was ultimately the

emergence of political parties. i along with many thinkers in political science today believe for all the defects and difficulties our parties bring to our democracy, they actually are or should be a fundamental instrument of locking the rise of demagogues and authoritarians to executive power. how is this supposed to happen? in quick summary, as the political parties today are weak , very weak. they have no power within their conventions, either democrats or republicans, no power to block the emergence of the demagogue or authoritarian, even if it were hitler or stalin. we have a primary system with delegates being bound. this to me is my second favorite talk.

is the fatal flaw in our democracy today the fact that the political parties should be remarkable and formidable checks and balances on the rise of demagogues and authoritarians? now they serve no purpose in that regard. what a successful form of government is is systems of the will of the people being stacked up with checks and balances. the will of the people and checks and balances. the way a person becomes president today, there are no checks and balances. let me reiterate. zero checks and balances. we have a primary system which in is very dysfunctional way represents the will of the people, the extremist will of the people. that is pure democracy to become the nominee of a political party. after that, with a slight dysfunction of the electoral college, it's another active peer democracy that elect the president of the united states. my deepest heartfelt view is we

should have the will of the people determine the president. there is no question about that. but the political parties, we need to restore institutional power to our political parties so they do not have to allow a stall in order hi -- stalin or hitler to proceed from the convention into the presidential pipeline for the people to vote on. that is because in some ways no matter how educated the people are, demo calyx -- demagogues have the cult of personality to capture the brain, not of just people we described as the uneducated. i think that's a fallacy. as we have seen in the republican party over the past eight years or so, it is some of the best educated individuals in the country who have signed on under donald trump's demagoguery and some authoritarian tendencies certainly devastated by his incitement of the gentry six assault -- january 6 assault. if the electoral college -- if

someone in the electoral college does not achieve 270 votes, are system is sadly set up not to have a runoff. we could configure how it's done to have a runoff the way the reason he did in france. unfortunately, if you don't achieve 270 electoral college votes in the general election, what happens? the races thrown to the house of representatives and they don't vote by individuals. they vote by states. that does not seem like a great outcome for most people. that is one reason we narrowly pursued two parties and are fearful of one of those candidates not achieving 270 votes. the future of our democracy, in my view, i will be optimistic and pessimistic. the future is decline. unless we reform. there's a lot for us to reform, including the presidential nomination system, the electoral

college, the need for codes of ethics in the media and the supreme court and elsewhere. i will repeat the third time. civility in a democracy is equally as important as the constitution in maintaining the health of that democracy. host: clyde in oklahoma the democrats line. caller: hi. i have a question for you. which came first, the bible or the constitution of the united states? guest: which came first? i do believe if my history is correct the bible came long before the constitution. if you're bringing that up, you might what to ask something else. it makes me think that ethics is the backbone of a democracy. the founders of the country clearly understood that an excellent constitution is ultimately nothing more than a piece of parchment. what matters most is who are

those guardians surrounding the constitution? i think to connect the ideas you're bringing up, it was judeo-christian ethics that was so incredibly important to the formation of the ethical views and concept of civic virtue that was so important to the founders and such an important part of their success. within their white male government. i'm not talking about their treatment of indigenous peoples and certainly enslaved peoples. they lived at a time and studied not only the bible and christian ethics but also dominantly roman ethics. i believe the convergence in the 1750's, 1760's, 1770's of their understanding of christian ethics and roman ethics that enabled them to become the exemplars of civic virtue that they ultimately were.

i'm vaguely recalling a wonderful letter exchange between john adams and abigail adams in the 1770's where they were going back and forth between christian ethics and roman ethics. that was the moment in which it clicked for me that these two dominant sources of understanding and character formation occurred during that time in history and was so important. we would wish it back upon ourselves now, which is powerful ethics. as far as i have come to understand it doesn't have to be christianity as the engine of the conveyance of ethics to the citizens of a democracy, but it is typically religion that is the vehicle that brings ethics into democracy and ethics, as i have tried to make clear, is equally as important to a democracy as a constitution. host: for people who read your now award-winning book, “disunion among ourselves," what

do you want them to take away from it? guest: one of the most important things i would want people to take away from the book is the idea that history is complex. therefore when we discuss history we should challenge ourselves to adopt and understand complexity. why? because it is the pursuit of truth, but also because it is when we pursue and challenge our brains to accept complexity that we actually mature as people. i think democracy functions best when the people are mature. they are not thinking in black-and-white terms. they are thinking in shades of gray. i will say one example of that which i highlighted in the book and some weeks ago on july 4

time magazine published an opinion piece of mine about 1000 words called, "why the founders perpetuated slavery." in brief, there are many dominant theories whether founders perpetuated slavery. it is because they lived in a white supremacist culture where racism was active. that was the reason for perpetuating slavery? correct. the other is an economic interpretation of why the perpetuated slavery. both north and south were profiting greatly from slavery. correct. what my book introduces and again and answering your question what i want to leave people with, it introduces the survivalist interpretation of the founding period. another reason and understanding complex history that the perpetuated slavery is, if any

of the northern states had said we are not going to continue in this union with the southern states unless we adopt a plan for the gradual emancipation of enslaved people, what would have happened? that would have brought full circle back to what i described earlier the three step chain reaction where division would lead to disunion. this union would lead to the formation of separate confederations and the separate confederations would fall into civil war. in this piece in time, i say they made a devil's bargain. in part they continued perpetuating slavery because if they had tried to adopt a plan for gradual emancipation it would have led to the outcome of death or civil wars. in some ways they chose white self-preservation over the rudy and equality -- liberty and equality for african american people in the country.

that was the concept i would like people to take away the most. host: we have time for one more call. lynn in biloxi, mississippi. caller: good morning and thank you for taking my call. i had one question. do you know the first fact george washington did is pregnant -- president and with that work today? guest: do i know the first act george washington did as president and with that work today? caller: yes. guest: i'm not sure with the first act is your thinking about. can you tell me what you have in mind? caller: he took the house and senate to church for two hours. guest: is that right? i had never seen that. would that work today? we both know that would not work today. there is way too much division for that to happen.

what could a president due along those lines? i think the question here is returning to this question of what came first, the bible or the constitution? i think many people, perhaps he was will have a concern that -- u.s. will have a concern that the decline in religion, the decline in church attendance in the united states is a factor, a significant factor in the fraying of the nation. in the polarization. in the, got great. i -- demagoguery. i suggest that i think that is a correct theory. i just meant two weeks in france in paris of my 17-year-old son. without going too far into it, i just felt there was a deep presence there and certainly reference for churches throughout -- there are churches

on every block. we went into them. they are glorious, beautiful things but the candles lit everywhere -- with the candles lit everywhere. i am puzzled as to how if we proceed to a secular society to understand where we will get the ethics that are so important to the maintenance of the democracy so necessary to the achievement of civility, which is a cornerstone of democracy, if not a cornerstone but the keystone that holds the whole thing together. thank you for that question. host: our guest, “disunion among ourselves, author of --our guest, eli merritt, author of “disunion among ourselves." you can find him and his newsletter american commonwealth online at elimerritt.

substack.com. we are back tomorrow at 7:00 a.m. eastern for another edition of the show. enjoy the rest of your day. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2024] ♪ >> this afternoon former president trump and his vice president pick j.d. vance will hold a campaign rally in grand rapids, michigan. thisilbe former president trump and senator vance's first rally sincacpting the nomination. watch live on c-span now or

online at c-span.org. after the attempted assainion of former president trump, secret service director kimberly cheadle will testify on security losses that may lead led to the shooting. watch live monday on 10:00 a.m eastern on c-span two, c-span now or online at c-span.org. democratic congresswoman sheila jackson lee has died at age 74 according h family. c-span capitol hill producer craig kaplan notes that she anund inshe was undergoing treme for pancreatic cancer. e represented houston for 15 terms as part of the 18th district in texas, succeeding barbara jordan. she served on the budget home at security and judiciary committee hopingo ss numerous pieces

of legislation including the reauthorization of the violence against women act and a bill recognizing juneteenth as a federal holiday. for more about the life and career of representative lee, visit c-span's video library. weave more than 3600 appearances by the congresswoman on the hou floor, in committee and on the hill. that is available at c-span.org. just type sheila jackson lee in the search box at the top of the page. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government funded by these television companies and more including buckeye broadband. buckeye broadband supports c-span as a public service along

with these other television providers giving you a front row seat to democracy. next president biden talking about the need to address political violence and gun violence against children at the naacp convention in las vegas. he touches on inflation, childcare and historically black colleges and universities. pres. biden: thank you. thank you. my name is joe biden and i am a

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