♪ host: good morning. it is friday, august 2. you are watching footage from americans landing at joint base

andrews after being released from prison in russia, grading family members, and president biden and vice president harris. it is the largest prisoner swap of the post-soviet era. 16 individuals were freed, including evan gershkovich and paul whelan. in exchange, eight people were freed by the west. this morning, we hear your reaction to the prisoner swap with russia. republicans, (202)-748-8001. democrats, (202)-748-8000. independents, (202)-748-8002. you can text us, (202)-748-8003. send us your first name, your city and state, and we are on social media, facebook.com/c-span, and x at @cspanwj. welcome to today's "washington journal." we start with the front pages of

"the wall street journal." evan gershkovich is free. paul whelan is coming home after years of -- taupe. there is "the washington post" that says u.s. allies pull off historic swap. and "the new york times" -- journalists freed and swap of 2024 inmates. president biden was that joint base andrews a few hours ago, accepting that airplane that landed. here he is. [video clip] pres. biden: to me, this is about the ethics to who we are as a country, about families, about having access to people you love and adore. [indiscernible] how many of you have children?

raise your hand. imagine getting sent to prison not knowing if you will ever be home. higher children go to bed home at night crying. it matters. >> [indiscernible] >> hours before you announced he would be leaving the 2024 race, can you talk about how important it was for you to get this deal done knowing you are not going to seek a second term. pres. biden: i would still get it done even if i'm not seeking a second term. you got me for at least another 90 days. it had nothing to do with that. it had to do with the opportunity and trying to convince one less country to say, ok, they will step up. [end video clip] host: he was asked about his

decision to step away from the election. here's more information on that from "the washington post. the it says in the weeks preceding the exchange, painstaking negotiations, on july 21, president biden got on the phone with the prime minister of slovenia to make sure he was still willing to release the russian couple that had been convicted on spying charges. part of the group of prisoners in the united states and allies had offered prisoners in exchange. biden, who had been under intense pressure to drop out of the presidential race, they since delivered a halting performance -- announced he would not seek reelection and became a lame-duck president. they had seen proposed prisoner swap's come together only to disintegrate. once on the key figure in the deal died suddenly in a russian

prison. they had tried to free several americans at a time, only to settle for one. cabinet officials and biden himself had called family members to discuss their loved ones who were not coming home. and we are getting your reaction to that. we will start with barney, florida, democrat. caller: how are you doing? host: good. caller: i think president biden is doing an excellent job considering what he had to go through. and he is teaching the vice president -- he holds a job as vice president, and she is going to be an excellent item president holding a black job.

host: let's talk to bob, utah, democrat. caller: good morning. i'm happy that these people were released. i keep thinking about when one copter was sent home brain-dead after being captured in korea, and his parents had to pull him off life support. that was under president trump's watch. and the difference is on comparable between biden and trump. how anybody could go through trump after trump said he loves north korea is beyond me. i would just like people to look at the difference. thank you, and i think of the

parents. host: here is more information from open the washington post co. it says -- from "the washington post." it says this is the largest person or swap since the cold war. the countries met on an airfield in turkey on thursday and swap at least 24 people, with painstaking diplomacy involving negotiations at the highest levels of nine governments. those released included a russian assassin convicted of murder in berlin, evan gershkovich, accused of espionage without any known evidence, and several russian dissidents, whose only misdeed was demanding freedom and democracy or criticizing the war in ukraine, including a washington post opinions contributor. the white house called it the largest and most complicated international prisoner exchange in decades as one of the biggest

diplomatic accomplishments of joe biden's presidency, coming less than two weeks after he dropped his election bid over pressure on anxieties over his agent is for a new term, but the deal was flat, raising questions about the west's willingness to deal with authoritarian regimes that present this people for negotiating leverage. host: scott, massachusetts, democrat. caller: actually, roseville, california, thank you. host: sorry about that. caller: that is all right. good morning. as far as god is concerned, all life is precious, and when the 10 commandments was replaced by new testament and jesus said we should love our neighbors as if they were ourselves, biden proved that today. there is nothing we cannot be forgiven for after god gave his only given son for all of our

sins. so this trader -- this hostage situation is so far beneath what god has in mind for us. it is up to us to learn, just like first grade, in the garden. learning how to love one another. and so the victims are released and forgiven. imagine giving your only child for us. god did that. host: julian, republican, georgia. caller: good morning. [indiscernible] kamala harris was the district attorney, the officer's spinosa,

instead of the death penalty, he gets life in prison. the freeborn people who have never done anything. host: julian, do you have a comment about the prisoner swap with russia? caller: i think it is a good deal. anyway, what about the people who killed those people on 9/11 who are getting off? [indiscernible] if you kill off 75, 80 million people who are born, what do you expect? host: patricia, arizona, democrat. caller: good morning. thank you. i would like to say that this is very awesome, and my dad was in world war ii, and they know the

neighborhood restated here in arizona, we are in a black neighborhood, and my dad got along with everybody and helped everybody. this is what we need. and try to love one another, pray. and this is a awesome, awesome exchange that the president and vice president have done. have a great day. host: let's look at president biden speaking at the white house yesterday, talking about this prisoner exchange. [video clip] pres. biden: now, the brutal ordeal is over and they are free. moments ago, we spoke to them from the oval office. earlier today, they were flown to turkey and soon they will be wheels up on their way home to see their families. this is an incredible relief for all the families gathered here. the relief to friends and

colleagues across the country and we have been praying for this day for a long time. friendship and diplomacy made this possible. multiple countries got this done. they joined complex negotiations at my request, and i personally thank them again. russia has released 16 presenters, eight russians being held in the west will be sent home, as well. these 16 prisoners from russia have included four americans, five german, seven russian citizens who were political prisoners in their own country. one of those russians runs a human rights organization memorial and won a nobel prize in 2022. putin had him prisoner for voicing opposition on the war in ukraine. four others worked at the lexington valley -- alexei

navalny, who died in a russian prison this year, and now they continue to work, advocating for democracy if they so choose. this would not have been made possible without their allies, germany, -- our allies, germany, poland, slovenia. they all stepped up and stood with us, and they made bold and brave decisions, released prisoners being held in their countries and provided logistical support to get americans home. so for anyone who questions to allies matter? they do. they matter. [end video clip] host: that was the president yesterday afternoon at the white house. here is foxnews.com saying dangerous message. cap republican raising concerns for treating americans for actual russian criminals. reaction sporting after the biden administration agreed to a

prisoner exchange with russia. top republicans warned on thursday that the biden administration's choice to trade americans could be sending a "dangerous message to russian president putin." michael mccaul of texas joined others in celebrating the releases, saying he was thrilled to hear detained americans were getting released and coming home. but "treating americans for actual russian criminals held in the u.s. and elsewhere sends a dangerous message to pretend that only encourages further hostagetaking by his regime." getting your reaction to that, doug, virginia, republican. caller: good morning. i do agree with what republicans are saying. why don't we just have a stop and ban on travel because innocent americans are being treated for criminals.

they would never get released if it was never for this. we need to stop. nobody needs to go to afghanistan or russia or anything else. you can use the computer if you have to conduct business but do not go to a person because we are getting screwed every time there is a trade. host: let me ask you about journalists. do you think there are benefits and generalists going to those areas and being able to report from there? caller: do you think it is worth [indiscernible] or an innocent journalist? you can always hire people inside of russia who can do reports, but we do not need to keep doing this. this has been going on my whole lifetime they take innocent people, and very try to get them back.

and we have not heard how many did we give them. host: yes, we do have that information. let me full let up for you -- let me pull that up for you. let me share that with you since you brought that up. here is the most controversial of the eight russians released. there is a russian hitman who is a convicted russian assassin. it says four years, the kremlin had hinted that when it came to any potential prisoner swap's with the united states and its allies, there was one key name on the list, a convicted russian assassin who had been serving a life sentence in germany for the 2019 murder of another person in a berlin park. krasikov most likely killed at the behest of the russian intelligence agency. he was freed as part of a person

or swap between russia, the u.s. and allies. it also says that from max bergman said moscow had been so intense on securing his release because it would send a firm message that the kremlin will go far to protect its loyal footmen. kevin, washington, independent. go ahead. caller: i just wanted to say, it is great that we got some people home, but, like they are saying the russians, we are trading

criminals who have assassinated people. in u.s., they would be imprisoned the rest of their lives. we cannot let that happen. i don't understand why we gave them back criminals, who may be the criminals we gave them back right come back and do it again. who knows. host: eddie, seduces, republican -- eddie, massachusetts, republican. caller: it is the nice guy joe. it's terrible, you are emboldening these terrorists. thomas, they take hostages. putin, they take hostages. they are encouraging these authoritarians to take hostages. it is very bad policy. someone said nice guys finish last. joe is a terrible president and

he has given the country away. thank you. host: let's look at national security advisor jake sullivan who got emotional when he was talking about this. [video clip] >> it is a fair question, a question we grapple with every time you look at the hard decisions involved in one of these exchanges. it is difficult to send back a criminal to secure the release of an innocent american, and, yet, sometimes the choices between doing that and consigning that person to live out their days in prison in a hostile foreign country or in the hands of a hunt for power. from our perspective, we have assessed and analyzed the risk and judged the benefit of reuniting americans, of reading people home and vindicating the idea that the american president and the american government are going to do what it takes to

protect and secure the release of innocent americans, that that benefited our ways -- that benefited and outweighs the risk, and i would point out that in times when the u.s. government did not intend to do prisoner exchanges, americans were unjustly detained and held hostage overseas. in periods where we did, americans are unjustly detained and held hostage overseas, so i think there are real questions, and the hostage negotiator at the state department pointed out that in this analysis, it is not as clear-cut that the evidence actually demonstrates the kind of result that your question speaks to that a lot more people get taken because we do exchanges, but it is something to pay attention to and something that makes decisions by the president simple decisions but hard, that he was prepared to make them, as he did today. host: here is former president

trump untrue social who says -- so when are we going to release the details of the prisoner swap with russia? how many people do weetersus them? are we also paying them cash? arthey getting us cash? plse withdraw that question because i'm sure the answer is . e we releasing murderers or thugs? just curious because we never made good deals at anything, especially hostage swaps. our "negotiators" are always in embarrassment. i got back many hostages and gave t oosing country nothing and never any cash. to do tt is best for the future or thsiation will get worse and worse. they are extorting america and calling the trade complex. that is how bad it is. host: john, independent, florida. caller: good morning. i think sullivan hit the nail on the head with regards to his

position. obviously, you feel it is the right thing to do, and sometimes the right thing to do was a tough decision to make. especially when the world is kind of going crazy right now. the first caller said we should do a ban. i think you have to be conscious of where you are going nowadays. and, overall, it is just unfortunate and a time when we are supposed to be celebrating, we are finding a reason to nitpick at things. they realize that they are dealing with putin, and they understand that is a criminal country, so we need to do what we need to do for our civilians to feel like you're not abandoning them. my position is, it is a great move, but it is politicized and this is the nature of our times right now. host: cnn.com has affected check

-- has a fact check on what former president trump posted on two social that i just read for you that says he falsely claims that he gave up "nothing'to get americans back and it said in may former president trump declared he was the only person who could obtain the release of evan gershkovich from a russian prison after president joe biden prove the claim wrong on thursday by securing the release, trump posted skeptical questions on social media. it says that trump's claim that he gave opposing countries nothing to secure the freedom of american prisoners is false. so trump helped to obtain the release of some americans held abroad without having to release anyone in return. he also presided over four exchanges in which he approved the release of prisoners from u.s. detention in exchange for foreign government releasing americans.

it also goes on to say that biotin -- that biden's jake sullivan said no sanctions were loosened as part of the thursday deal. nebraska, jeff, democrat, good morning. caller: good morning. it is to the point where politicians are going to criticize anything to gain an advantage, even if it does good for the united states, the people citizens. and, republicans, remember, if it was a relative of yours, would you have the same feeling that they should not have let them go? yeah. are we losing in the trade somewhat? yeah. but is it a benefit to us to have our people back? yes. but i think policy should change anything we should put a policy in place.

our citizens should not be in russia. it is a dangerous place and this is what is going to happen if you are greedy enough to try to go over there, work and make money in russia, that is a risk at your own peril. you have to understand what you are doing, putting the united states at risk, also. we are having to let these people go because of you. and what you are doing there. host: jeff, i'm assuming you are including journalists, not just business people in that ban? caller: absolutely, it is too dangerous. host: what countries would you have american journalists be banned from? what would go on your list? caller: certainly not russia. there are several travel bans across the united states or, i mean, across the world. we look and study these countries and say this is a serious threat to travel and, and when you do that, i mean,

how many other countries have done this against us to use prisoners to swap to get their people back? elite just russia. they are basically the only ones i know of that we have to prisoner swap's with. back in the past, it was korea, vietnam, but, today, it seems that question is the main threat. again, if russia would like to do business with the west, these things are going to have to stop happening. i would penalize them severely, more than today. we have to shut them down. host: here is the clip i had meant to show you before of jake sullivan speaking to reporters. [video clip] >> honestly, guys, i can just say this was vintage joe biden, rallying american allies, saving american citizens and russian

freedom fighters and doing it with intricate craft, pulling his whole team together to drive it across the finish line. his goal has always to been -- always has been to put the families first. from the president on down, we have stayed in touch with them. i spent a lot of times with families, evan, paul, and most of the time, as you can imagine, those are tough conversations but not today. today -- excuse me. today was a very good day. and we are going to build on it, drawing inspiration and continued courage for those who are all wrongfully detained around the world. [end video clip] host: kevin in omaha, nebraska, independent. caller: good morning. how are you today? i just wanted to commend president biden and vice president harris on this great

accomplishment. these families who endure unmeasurable suffering. who cares if these russian guys go back? let them go back to russia. what the hell? we don't need them. i'm really proud of biden and harris. and go kamala for president. thank you and have a good day. host: larry, michigan, publican. good morning -- larry, michigan, republican, good morning. go ahead. caller: i think biden did a good thing. yeah, i am a republican, but always republicans who keep following trump need to wake up and realize what democrats can do for our country. look at all the roads in michigan getting repaired now because democrats are getting scared they're going to lose. have a nice day. host: james, illinois, democrat.

caller: thank you for having me on. i feel great as an american knowing that our president will not leave us somewhere. for all the people out there who think it is about idea, imagine that is your mother, your father, your daughter or son. like i said, i feel great as an american knowing that our president is not going to leave us in a dungeon somewhere to rot because we have given of criminals so our people do not rot. god bless america. host: former caller larry mentioned vice president harris. this is "the wall street journal." it says kamala harris played a role in the prisoner swap. it said vice president harris later wrote in negotiations with

allies to secure the prisoner swap deal. they met with the german chancellor and the slovenian prime minister separately in intimate settings during the munich security conference in february to urge both leaders to push the deal through, according to a white house official. one meeting was particularly critical to securing the exchange because releasing krasikov was a key demand. the two had a bilateral meeting before harris asked schulz to stay back for a "strict and bilateral." harris asked everybody to leave except schultz and 18 on each side. "they had a back-and-forth about how to best move forward about that. ultimately, she was pressing schulz to take action on this. it says that harris had met schulz previously on several occasions and had a good working relationship with. according to that u.s. official, that is part of the reason why

she was able to have a good, frank conversation with him. carol, detroit, democrat. caller: good morning. how are you? host: good. caller: good, good. thank you for taking my call. once again, c-span, let's remember -- because news travels fast. this is carol from michigan to tell you that we forget to fast -- too fast that putin killed his political rival. he drug a group into ukraine and then left them there, and then he comes home and kills him. caller: yes sir -- yes ma'am.

we all know. trump sides with putin, and we know that, too. so, of course, he is going to down item -- down biden. biden could still run this country, but he did a great thing and step down for the future. i'm sorry i'm crying, but he is going home and he has got to do a few things before he goes. america, wake up. he is siding with putin. and those people at biden let go, they have got to hope they stay alive when they get back to russia. thank you, c-span. host: vice presidential candidate j.d. vance was asked by cnn about the prisoner swap while he was at the border yesterday. [video clip] >> do you have a reaction to the

news that came out about the prisoner swap that will bring two americans back home potentially? >> i think it is great news, what little we know. it is definitely we want them to come back from, but we have to ask ourselves why. it is because bad guys around the world recognize that donald trump is about to be in office so they are cleaning house. it is a testament to donald trump strength. host: bill, new jersey. caller: i just listened to vance's response from the border. it is laughable. anyway, thank you for taking my call. thank you, mimi, for fact checking trump's statement, the initial statement he released last night about what he did as

it relates to releasing prisoners here for americans throughout the world. that fact checking response you gave was really on point. i think that the republicans, unfortunately, are going to spend anything that the current administration does, good or bad . they're going to spin it in a way that it will be received by their supporters and incredible, but as long as we continue to do fact checking and just look through all of the ridiculousness of the statements being made by the republican

politicians and their supporters, i think we know what the future holds for this country. again, thank you, c-span. i try to listen to you guys every morning, and i listen to a lot of the comments. host: we appreciate you joining us. glenn, pennsylvania, republican. caller: how are you doing? host: good. caller: this is the third time i got through. the first time i got through a year ago, you edited my call. that is why you have those calls ahead of time. the second time you had the man on, you told him that he did not have to answer my question. now i have two things. what was the journalist doing in russia? in the basketball player? the government worried more about getting the basketball

player out instead of a marine. and c-span, when the democrats call, they let them go on and on and on. when a republican calls -- host: is that all you had on the prisoner swap? caller: yeah. the journalist, why didn't we worry about the marine before the journalist? stop everything. it is a "wall street journal was" left-wing paper -- "wall street journal" left-wing paper, get him out of there. host: i'm not sure most would agree that "wall street journal" is a left-wing paper. virginia, independently, new york. caller: i just wanted to say that i think most people are thrilled that the people came home, but i think it is more a reflection that you see all these countries that came together to do something, as

diverse as the countries are with different agendas, different political stances, and what they could do for a common good. for whatever reason, and we cannot get our own act together. whatever it is. just hoping it is good for the future. i'm just happy. that's all i have to say. host: here is a letter from the editor-in-chief of "the wall street journal," saying that today is a joyous day for the return of our colleague evan gershkovich. left a russian aircraft earlier in turkey's capital. it is a joyous day for his friends, family and colleague who have supported him these past 16 months. a joyous day for millions of well-wishers around the world who stood with him. surely, tennessee, republican.

caller: good morning. how are you? host: good. caller: politics set aside, i'm very grateful that whatever it took, we got our americans home. the thing that concerns me is that russia, this is not a new tactic for them. i would like to see a ban really on any americans flying into russia and putting themselves at risk because russia is going to snatch up our americans, trump up charges against the just to get their criminals out of jail. and politics set aside, these are real, real people, real americans.

host: thomas, texas, democrat. caller: [indiscernible] host: thomas, i'm afraid i cannot hear you. thomas? let's go to dave, virginia, independent. caller: how you doing? host: good. caller: i just wanted to mention that marine was imprisoned there for a long time. and then suddenly the famous journalist gets there [indiscernible] the other thing is we talk about sanctions. what sanctions? they are being completely manipulated by our enemies. the administration was not a or sing these sanctions and for us

to give away 24 criminals -- host: eight. the total was 24, 16 were released by russia, eight were released by the west. caller: ok. host: go ahead. caller: thank you for clarifying that. [indiscernible] the sanctions are doing nothing right now. they are completely -- the are being pulled around basically. we need to not only increase sanctions but start enforcing them, unlike the one caller said, it is important for people to stay out of russia. we released that horrible killer

and arms dealer who murdered millions of people for the basketball player and it did not take but a few weeks to get her out, so that really makes a lot of people angry. host: dave mentioned paul whelan. here is information about him. 54, former u.s. marine, served in iraq, was attending a friend's wedding at the metropolitan hotel in russia when he was arrested in 2018. he had made several previous trips to russia, so he accepted a flash drive that a russian friend said contained pictures of his travels. russian agents swooped down, claiming that it held classified russian military information. he is a citizen of the united states, canada, britain, and ireland and sentenced to 16 years in high-security penal colony where he was forced -- and was assaulted by one other inmate.

he spoke out repeatedly about being left behind while other americans were exchanged. host: susan, wyoming, republican. caller: i have one message for this administration, the people there in russia were there voluntarily. what about the american citizens who are being held against their will in gaza? he is doing nothing to help those americans, just hypocritical. thank you. host: larry, texas, democrat. caller: good morning. looking beautiful, as always. it was really wonderful that we have a president to brings people back home. all these people who call

themselves american citizens who are complaining about president biden bringing back fellow americans tell people, please, stop with the politics. trump a man from north korea who was brain-dead. host: let's take a look at social media. john on facebook who says mark vogel should have been included in the swat. charlotte on facoo says i just would like to say that this shows politics behind the prisoner swap with russia and elections every year. we do get things done when you were desperate to stay on top of the game. deb on facebook says this is what happen when you have a great relationship with allies and don't watch tv all the time. here is joy, savannah, georgia, republican. caller: yes.

something has been on my mind about russia. all our prisoners and everything, why is it that we can go up in space again, and we are allies with russia going up in space? they don't capture are astronauts going up with them back and forth? i know we pay them to take them up. [indiscernible] host: you are right. there is coordination with russia in space. you are absolutely right. ramah, missouri, independent -- ron, missouri, independent. caller: i'm glad we made the swap, but it is all political. they do the same thing at this time of year, it could have all been done earlier. we just allow politics to get involved.

i think we ought to ban travel. you should go on your own risk of going to russia and not expect russia to make a ade. same thing over here, maybe we should ban their reporters coming over here. i would look at it both ways. politically, it could have been done earlier. just like when bttney griner got traded for the russian priser over here. it could have been done earlier. if republicans were in the office, they would be doing the same thing. thank you. host: jim in texas. republican. caller: you got it pretty good.

i just got a phone call from a friend of mine. the basketball girl, the tall, skinny one, that was being held in russia, i understand that during the national anthem, she took a knee. she needs to understand what the united states went through to help get her out. we did not put her there. we helped get her out. the united states has, through a lot for this girl, and they need to straighten her out a little bit. that is all i got. let's push on and get along together. host: here is "usa today" on brittney griner. "first olympics since russian imprisonment, brittney griner more grateful than ever. brittney griner knows the face she presents to the world is often a mask. she knows what you see, a 6'9"

kid who loves skateboarding, it is only a fraction of the truth. to outsiders, it looks like she has moved on quickly from her 10 month detention in russian custody, but that terrifying and isolating stretch of time that would have broken most people, as she poses for photos with fans, it looks like things are back to normal, that are not and she is not. she will begin play early next week and her third olympics. she is the defensive anchor for the team. brittney griner is a member of two teams, already winter of two gold medals, but she knows this one would feel different." it says, "what she has gone through the last couple of years is unprecedented, and to be able to put this jersey back on and to be at open ceremony last night" -- it goes on "22 months

ago when americans headed to australia for the women's world cup, usa basketball announced nobody would wear her number 15 jersey, they were saving it for her believing she would return home safely day." jeanette, missouri, republican. host: good morning caller: --caller: good morning. i would just like to say, photo op. if we could stop and about the fact that putin and biden both had need for a photo op. if we believe and are intelligence agencies, they all defecate for not negotiating with terrorists -- they all to not negotiate with terrorists, but if we believe in our intelligence agencies, we

better remember that. and if and when we are going to have a negotiator, i think i would resort to the art of the deal. and i would prefer to have a donald trump negotiating. host: this is richard, alaska, independent. caller: you know what? first off, thank you. quickly, this is the first time i've ever called and got connected direct. ti'lan. -- thank you. host: welcome. thank you for joining us. caller: it is a pleasure. i live in a very small community in alaska. i watch a lot of you guys.

i want to say this. that i'm so proud of president biden for bringing success to the war that is -- to the horror that is going on in the world, and ringing people home -- and bringing people home. [indiscernible] and now they are whining about the way they brought them home. thank you, mr. president, and god bless for kamala harris. thank you for your show. i appreciate it. host: thank you for joining from alaska.

we are taking your calls for the next 10 minutes about this topic of the russia prisoner swap. you can call by party. republicans, (202)-748-8001. democrats, (202)-748-8000. independents, (202)-748-8002. here is jake sullivan again at the white house talking about vice president harris' role in the negotiation. [video clip] >> both president biden and vice president harris have made the return of unjustly detained americans hostage -- american hostages an absolute priority. in this case, vice president harris had opportunity to engage with chancellor schultz earlier this year at an opportune and timely moment at the munich security conference, where she talked about this issue with them. that followed on a conversation the president had a short time before that, and it was in the run of high-level engagements and back and forth with the

president and chancellor had that vice president harris was able to sit face-to-face with chance social's and talk to the elements of this. and then i sat in the oval office more times than i could count over the past years providing briefings and updates and getting peppered with questions by the president and vice president thinking through the strategy and iterating the approach, which she participated in very much, a core member of the team helping this happen. host: ken, new jersey, independent. caller: good morning. happy friday. host: you too. caller: i just wanted to comment on what jeanette just said a moment ago about using donald trump to negotiate freedom. he cannot identify a black woman

from anything else, but it said the only thing he probably could do extremely well was work on a prenuptial agreement. which i think each is reworked again. the whole point of america is that that caller talked about what written a grinder should do because of what we did. well, we did not do anything. people above our pay grade, they are the ones who negotiated to get her release. it had nothing to do with us. i think he said something to the extent that somebody should tell her something. that is typical of how the anglo faith believes that there's nothing in the world cannot do. lastly, it is more ironic because they try to say that kamala harris is part of --and

that would [indiscernible] other than the millions who follow him. have a great day. host: carol, florida, democrat. caller: good morning. how are you this morning? host: good, how are you? caller: good to be here. listening to the program, i realize you may be taking two republicans for everyone democrat. i believe that the bringing home of these hostages ought to be a joy for every american. and anybody who criticizes biden and harris for doing this is beyond relief. for anybody to talk about what he may have done -- he had plenty of opportunities to bring home hostages and he did not do it because he was more concerned

about himself. we should all applaud president biden and vice president harris to do this. america ought to come together and unite the basic things that make america great. make america great again is not the policy but a slogan that has borne no proof, so we ought to get together and determine what is right for the country, and i think biden and harris are doing the right things in terms of advocating. host: all right. randy, louisiana, independent. caller: i think it is fantastic to get these people back, and we should be very glad they are back, politics aside, i'm just glad they are back here on american soil. host: alex, florida, democrat.

caller: first time caller. i am a fan of the show. watch every morning. it is great we were able to get americans back home, but it seems that everybody should be happy, but it seems like some republicans are not happy like the lady calling. just anyway possible to m m m mm excuse and put donald trump above everything else. it makes us instantly. thank you -- it makes no sense to me. thank you. host: this is a russian-american editor working for radio liberty, a broadcaster, funded by the u.s. government, so that radio free europe is the broadcaster funded by the u.s. government, sentenced to 6.5 years in a rational penal colony for "spreading false information

about the russian armies." the charges broadly used by the kremlin to stifle criticism of the war in ukraine. she is 47, lived in france for more than two decades with her husband and two daughters and was arrested during a trip to her home town outside of moscow. she was first find for failing to register as a foreign agent and put in free trial detention. in september, she was charged with spreading false permission about the russian army. the charges are related to a book she edited which featured 40 russians who opposed the invasion of ukraine. russell, south carolina, democrat. caller: as a veteran, as a retired veteran, i love to see americans return home. we always say no man left

behind. i did want to mention really quickly a few blunders that trump made on the international stage. one was the secure of the iran deal. also, he tore the iran deal up, which actually caused more problems in syria. the second thing he did was he destroyed the deal that was along the syrian border. host: russell, we will talk about that in our next segment. we are talking about the middle east. we will ask about that iran deal. caller: well it was not that i was talking about it, i wanted to mention because everybody says trump is so great on foreign affairs, he has blunders, and one was removing the troops from syria. syria is right along the border with israel. and we would have been able to

protect israel better if we had allowed the kurds to keep -- host: all right. brenda, missouri, democrat. caller: good morning. thank you. i would like to send out congratulations to the families who received their family members back. we cannot agree on anything. i listen to the republicans call in, not having about nothing -- not happy about nothing. dear happy with an older man up there grimacing all day long, anger, anger. everybody should celebrate these people coming home. i don't care who they are. america, wake up. host: go viral, alabama, -- elvira, alabama, independent. caller: i'm very happy for the

families of the people who returned from russia. i would like to know what esther biden and ms. harris are going to do to get our citizens home -- what mr. biden and missed harris are going to do to get our citizens home from gaza? they have done nothing other than these so-called peace talks. we do not need peace talks. we need action. we need those people home. there are children being held in gaza. host: that is the last call for this segment. more to come. next, we are joined by brad bowman for the defense of we will discuss the escalating tensions between israel and iran. and later a conversation with dr. peniel joseph who is a professor at the university of texas, austin. we will talk about the history

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c-span.org/c-spannow. c-span now, your front row seat to washington anytime, anywhere. >> washington journal continues. host: welcome back. we are joined by bradley bowman, a senior director at the center of military and political power at the foundation for defense of democracies. good to see you again. your reaction to the recent escalation in the middle east between israel, hamas and now hezbollah. guest: it is good to join you and it has been a significant week. best -- back on saturday he saw a strike launch from hezbollah-controlled territory in southern lebanon using a ground launch rocket that killed 12 children on a soccer field the goal on heights and 50 people were injured. this is the most significant single loss of life since the october 17 attack. it is clear that israel will

need to -- will need to respond. on tuesday a senior commander was killed in lebanon and a lot of your viewers might be interested to note he was involved in the 1983 bombing in beirut that killed 241 service members and many others. there was a $5 million reward for justice bounty out for him. the is -- the israelis brought justice to him and many are not shedding tears about him being taken off the battlefield. on that same day the israel defense forces confirmed that a leading hamas military commander had indeed been killed last month so they confirmed that on the same day that the other man was taken off the battlefield. and on wednesday the top political leader of hamas just a short time after he was tending the inauguration of the new iranian president was accordingly killed by --

reportedly killed by a bomb placed in his room placed weeks in advance and was remotely detonated. it was not a good week or hamas and hezbollah. host: what difference does this actually make or is israel essentially playing whack a mole. you take out one leader there are three ready to take his place. guest: it is a good question and reminds me of the american experience in fighting al qaeda and isis. some leaders are more important than others and easier to replace. i would say this is significant politically, for sure. he was not involved in the day-to-day military operations in gaza, and mohammed was a much more significant target in that respect. the most important hamas terrorist leader remaining is yell yes and mar who is most likely in a tunnel right now.

he has the person -- is the person deciding on any kind of cease-fire. these are significant politically. the killings is a major embarrassment to the islamic government because it occurred a few hours after he attended a inauguration and an islamic guard facility. host: you mentioned the cease-fire talks. he was instrumental or central to those talks. what happens now that he is gone? guest: i think sinwar is the most important and -- individual and one can imagine two motives. one is that he has seen a lot of the fellow hamas leaders being killed. on the other hand, i think that sinwar likes what he has seen. he likes that she would like to have a regional bore with israel

his whole life. this is his ultimate goal, the extermination of the jewish state of visual. read their charter, their original charter and their intentions are clear. and so now we have the so-called actions of resistance and i would call it action of terror, where they have been joined by hezbollah and groups in syria and iraq and all of this ring of fire around israel. even though hamas has had a tough time in many of their forces have been decimated. from their perspective they see themselves as a historic figure. generally speaking they are happy with regional elements and more demonized for many years from their perspective. host: how likely that the spirals into a bigger regional bore? guest: a good question. after october 7, hezbollah the

part -- the iran proxy in lebanon almost started -- started attacking israel on a daily basis and since october 8 and has increased in severity and have gone deeper into lebanon and israel as i tried to fire. and maintaining this kind of tenuous stance is not the right word is difficult to maintain and then you have things like this happen where you have 12 children killed and stronger and stronger responses. following the killing of the man in iran, it is clear that we will see a major response from them. my best guess would be that this attack comes from hezbollah from the houthis, groups and iraq and syria and iran itself. some of the comments that we saw suggests, like on the 13 and

attack on iranian soil. 150 munitions launched and most of them did not get through. one bedouin girl was injured and they were largely unsuccessful and they were trying to kill people. there is a strong likelihood that we could see after the mourning period is over that we could see a massive attack that could be bigger than april 13 and we are seeing reporting that the biden administration and department is maneuvering forces to defend the state of israel. host: if you would like to join us and ask a question or make a comment for brad bellman -- bowman, you can give us a call by party. republicans, 202-748-8000. democrats, 202-748-8001. independents, 202-748-8002. i wonder what you think of the u.s.'s influence in trying to prevent that larger war. does the u.s. have any sway? guest: the u.s. has a huge

amount of sway because israel relies on the united of america for diplomatic support and for security assistance. following october 7 biden administration, president biden himself the week after that attack which was the largest single day murder of jews since the holocaust was one of his strongest weeks. he stood rhetorically and then backed it up by sending an extraordinary amount of weapons. because of historical ties the u.s. has a lot of influence on israel's decision-making. unfortunately in recent weeks the biden administration's influence has been unhelpful. what i mean by that is what we see happening over and over is that the islamic republic of iran interior proxies attack israel and the biden administration to have a good

intention desire applies pressure private and public to not respond or to respond in a reduced way, to take the win after april 13 and 14. the problem is to think about this logically or in a playground context. if the enemies can rely on the united states to constantly apply pressure on israel not to rely -- to respond constantly than they can rely on that applying pressure on jerusalem and it will invite more attacks. there is a negative dynamic that develops and that is why your best and most capable friend in the region is having among the worst day of its life you are careful what you say publicly. host: do you think there could be a coordinated attack from iran and then you got hezbollah on the northern front of israel and the houthis to the south and gaza going on. what israel be able to repel

that kind of coordinated attack? guest: yes you could see a cord needed attack and that is what we saw april 13. and if you forced me to predict we would see it again, potentially from iran, lebanon and from the houthis, iraq, and syria and the west bank as well. we are talking about a six or seven front war for israel, estate the size of new jersey which has gotten smaller since 60,000 israelis have been evacuated from their home. this is a scary time and a time that the united states should stand with their ally in the moment of need. yes this will happen and i can see on the logic that we launched nearly 350 munitions and it was a political win for iran and militarily unsuccessful. i can see leaders advising the supreme leader that if we do it

this time let's do more because we want to have more get through and be formidable. host: president biden briefly addressed the situation in the middle east while speaking to reporters at joint base andrews. here are his remarks. [video clip] >> i had a very direct meeting with the prime minister today. very direct. we have the basis for a cease-fire. they should move on it and move on it now. thank you. >> were chances for a cease-fire ruined after the assassination? >> it has not helped. [end video clip] host: he says the prospects of a cease-fire is not helped by the assassination. do you agree with that? guest: no.

and i think that is an unsettled session unhelpful saying -- unhelpful thing to say. he was a murderer. hamas is a foreign terraced organization. americans were killed on october 7 and americans are being held as hostages in dungeons in gaza. this is the president of the united states and he should be so proud of bringing evan, paul and alsu home and we should not be mourning the death of a murderer. israelis have brought justice to an enemy of the united states and iran, and lebanon and in gaza. we should be applauding that and not condemning that. and when the enemies fear us and israel we deter future aggression. i think president bryden -- president biden got it wrong. host: let us start with bo, an independent in southwestern georgia. caller: i am glad that your guest is on their and i have

been watching events in the middle east for years. and i know you talked about this conflict between iran, hezbollah and israel. there also news reports that turkey bank which is a -- turkiye which is a nato ally could get involved if israel goes into heaven on and comes through syria. he probably realizes this also on the 50th anniversary that turkiye invaded cyprus which used american weapons. i want to know what your perspective would be if turkey got involved and what would happen and what would happen and would we have to confront them as well even if they are a nato ally. thank you. guest: thank you. turkiye is a nato ally but sometimes it does not act like one in my view. they purchase the s400 from russia, the leading threat to the nato alliance. if you are a nato out -- member

you should not be buying an air system from the leading threat to the alliance. and of course the leader of turkey is an islamist and meets regularly with some of these terrorists. and has played incredibly unhelpful roles not becoming of a nato ally since october 7. i have concerns about turkiye, and i do not envision them taking the lead terry action against israel. if they did i think the united dates would have something to say about that. host: ted in ocean, hawaii. democrat. good morning. guest: yes i have been watching for many years and i heard a caller a few moments ago say we should not think and just take action and i think this fellow, bradley bowman, could comment on the fact that you really do need to think and not just act. some people think you just need to rush in and act.

that is my point. caller: thank you for the call -- guest: thank you for the call and point. as a student of history and strategy, history is replete with examples of the lesson that wars are easy to start and hard to end. so i think we should bring great scrutiny to military withdrawals as our former secretary of defense argued in a december 2020 monograph that i edited. he has on our board of advisors. and we should bring scrutiny into starting wars. sometimes you have to fight. but before you start a fight, and clearly and make sure you are prepared not for not only what you will do about how your adversary will respond. you had better believe that israel is preparing for this response that i described earlier out of the united states and that is what you want our military and israeli military to do. host: i want you to comment on

the news about the 9/11 mastermind and two others charged in a terror plot reach a plea deal that says the terms for the three men were not released but they are expected to plead guilty to some charges and potentially avoid death sentences as a result. guest: yes. he was one of the masterminds of the 9/11 terror attacks that killed nearly 3000 people. he has another stone cold terrorist. he has been at guantanamo for many years. it has taken a long time to move the process forward. we have the department of defense release where they said that some sort of pretrial agreement had been reached. we learned later via reporting from a letter of the prosecutors of the family that he has agreed to plead guilty in return for a life sentence to avoid a death penalty trial.

some of the concerns associated was that it could last a long time and it was possible that the judge might throw out the confession based on the fact that it might have been obtained via torture. and so, the prosecutors in their letter to the 9/11 family said that they felt like this is the best path forward to finally bring justice. i would add one statistic -- one side note is that the biden administration not unlike the obama administration was very eagle or -- eager and -- to close guantanamo. it was on the path to do that with roughly 11 more when october 7 happened and then change their mind after that and this is something that i've worked very closely with. according to the most recent statistics, ready to present, almost 32% of guantanamo detainees released are confirmed

and suspected and the other -- it is an important distinction that people are bringing doj arguments that is different to the military justice system. host: john in minneapolis. democrat. caller: good morning earlier you said it was an embarrassment for iran to be struck by israel and i just wonder why it is an embarrassment for a sovereign country to not be prepared for another country to attack their property. which is an act of war generally. this is the second time israel has escalated like this when

they attacked i believe a consulate or embassy of iran and another country which is an act of war and if someone did that to the u.s. we would be responding hard. and about the 11 or 12 children. i do not want to discount that. and this is on the state department website released an article about how there were 237 palestinian children -- killed and conflict prior to october 7 prior to the -- in the west bank prior to 2023. my question is what are you talking about the palestinians doing all of this. israel has been oppressing them for 75 plus years. israel has constantly been bombing why? they bomb four to seven countries since october 7. does that sound like a peaceful

nation or an aggressor? host: let's get a response. guest: thank you for the call and i will try to be quick. why did i say it was an embarrassment that he was killed. and that was pretty straightforward. the killing occurred in the capital and it occurred reportedly in an islamic revolutionary guard corps hotel. and edit killed a couple -- and it happened a couple of hours after haniyeh attended the inauguration and you suggested that there was something wrong with that. i will be interested to know if the united states should have gone after osama bin laden after 9/11. i think that was the right thing to do. he is a combatant that murdered 3000 american citizens. on october 7, proportionately that was some domination of 9/11 and pearl harbor and on a per capita basis was much larger.

what would you expect israel to do after the worst single day of murder of jews in the holocaust, sit on their hands and do nothing? of course not. we have a long tradition of nazi hunting and the idea that they want to kill jews, read the hamas charter. they want to exterminate the state of israel. look at the propaganda, the sick propaganda that some of the hamas fighters left and was found in them on october 7 talking about jews as people that need to be eliminated and there is something wrong with them. i mean, are you suggesting that israel should not be going after the leaders that committed the atrocities? i do not understand that argument and i am wondering if you would apply that same logic to going after osama bin laden. and you are talking about innocent palestinians being

killed. i think every individual regardless of their background who is killed as an absolute tragedy. the thing to remember is that there was peace on october 5 -- sixth and there was a cease-fire. israel was on the mind that gaza was settled. we were talking to an israeli leader a couple weeks before israel -- october 7. they were talking about threats and my colleagues said you did not mention hamas and they said they think that hamas is happy with the status quo and they are looking for peace and not a major war. israeli leaders were duped. they were not looking for a war in gaza. hamas chose to break the cease-fire and commit this atrocity and they are paying the price. host: michelle is in longwood, florida. republican. hello. caller: hello. can you hear me? host: yes. go ahead. caller: so, my question is that

i was going to ask particularly about how you think trump what handle this differently. but really my question is over the course of history since israel was created, is there not a pattern in which there is no peace about this? because nothing was ever really settled about what to do about the palestinians as a group of people. since there -- since the u.n. really displaced that set of people to create israel and there was no reconciliation for them. in addition to which the arab nations did not step up for them either. so i do not disagree that israel should have been created. i am not saying that.

i am saying that there is a disproportionate result of that that is continuing to play out without resolution, no matter is there are cease-fires or broken cease-fires. there is continual disproportionate disadvantage that has not been settled. how do you think the republicans across time handled it differently than the democrats? guest: that is a great question and we would need an hour to address that but i will be quick. so how would trump handle this differently and a second term? that is a good question and people can disagree. generally speaking we would probably see more assertive provision of weapons to israel and a trump administration man we have seen with biden. i said they provided an extraordinary amount but i would not flag it right now that the

biden administration is holding one shipment of 2000 pound bombs over concerns related to rafah, which are frankly no longer relevant. and there is some reason to believe that the biden administration might be delaying congressional notification for multiple systems that israel would need for a major war with hezbollah and iran. and it is putting israel under necessary risk. i do not think you would see that in a second drum term. and he probably would not have seen the same public criticisms of israel from trump. president trump also is -- brags about not starting wars and that is good. we do not want to start them. but if you keep saying as president biden says we do not want a regional war, anyone on a playground and if you keep saying to the bully i do not want to fight, what happens, he punches you in the mouth again. i think we would see some things from my perspective that would

be better but maybe not as good as many people think. host: when you mentioned that the u.s. with withholding bombs from israel, are those necessary for the war in gaza or are they just i mean too destructive in an urban environment and you will definitely have a lot of civilian death? guest: thank you for the question. the u.s. military has used 2000 pound bombs and military environments -- urban environments. there are legitimate uses and from a humanitarian act -- perspective. if you clear old -- cleared all the civilians which is what israel has tried to do and you have buried beneath large buildings terrorists you have two options you sent infantrymen into the tunnels to die trying to get them or after you pull civilians out you can use the bomb. there are some legitimate reasons why you would do that.

a lot of the reporting regarding the use of bombs in gaza in places like "the new york times" has been sloppy. the short answer is no, i do not see the need now for 2000 pound bombs in gaza. i do not think i -- they need them right now. but the fact is they held it in -- out of concerns for rafah. but that is not the issue, israel does not need them right now but they do need them for hezbollah. hezbollah has lot of tunnels and a lot of them are deeply embedded in the rock. host: in lebanon. guest: in lebanon as opposed to gaza. i am concerned that you have other munitions and i am talking about not only bombs but guidance kits, and fuses not being noticed congress and those guidance kits helps israel hit the bad guys. some of the munitions are ones that are penetraters that are

designed to blow up underground which means you get the bad guys and protect innocent people. it is a perverse logic, why would you withhold the things that would minimize civilian category -- civilian casualties. host: st. petersburg on the independent line. caller: good morning. i would like to ask one question and it is a great thing that we have the prisoners back, but how do we keep them from coming back, and i will take my answer offline. have a wonderful day. guest: thank you for the call in question. it is absolutely heartwarming and wonderful to see these americans returning home. i watched it live on television and i think any patriotic american should feel wonderful that our government cares and takes action to try and bring you home. and this is something service members can rely on and american civilians benefit from it as

well. welcome home and there are 16 total prisoners feared -- free. vladimir was freed and that is great. and that is wonderful. unfortunately, all of these individuals were detained in russia were wrongfully detained and were innocent despite what vladimir putin said. unfortunately to get them home we had to release a lot of real deal criminals and killers including one individual who assassinated someone in a park in relation and was convicted and serving time. i do worry that this incentivizes more hostagetaking where we will be slop -- swapping convicted criminals and terrorists for innocent people. but the bottom line is that three americans are home and that is a wonderful thing. host: what should israel give up in exchange for the hostages held? guest: i would recommend that if asked that israel take all

reasonable measures to try and achieve a temporary cease-fire that brings the hostages home. that provides a little breathing space for israel to stockpile munitions and prepare forces for a larger war with hezbollah that could come and to frankly reduce the temperature in the bilateral relationship. host: why would hamas except that knowing that it is a temporary cease-fire, i will release the hostages and i will not have a bargaining chip and israel gets a chance to restock? guest: i am not sure why. and they have not. and how many times in the last few weeks has they said cease-fire is pending. i would look at that with a jaundiced die. location behind your question which is yahya sinwar, the remaining most important leader of hamas in gaza is friday -- is probably hiding in a tunnel and has surrounded himself with the

hostages knowing that unlike hamas israel values human life and does not want to kill its own citizens so using them as human shields which is a practice that hamas has perfected. one of the reasons we have seen so many casualties because they deliberately put launch sites in schools and commandos and hospitals to frankly and i'm using my words deliberately based on research to invite attacks where innocent people die so that they can blame it on israel for the purpose of demonizing israel. host: sinwar himself was released in a prisoner swap. guest: exactly. and you have these instances where israel based on the same values and principles that we saw on display with bringing the others home, we value human life and every individual matters and so we had instances where israelis have traded hundreds of prisoners and that says something about their view of human life. host: jim in parsons, west

virginia. democrat. caller: good morning. i just wanted to ask this fellow some questions. and thank goodness that guy called from minnesota a few callers back. he illustrated some key points. i think it is ridiculous -- first of all i think it is ridiculous for your guest to portray president biden as being sympathetic or grieving in the death of a terrorists. he wants to see a cease-fire. and if you look at cause and effect, like the guy from minnesota was asking about was how long is israel -- has israel tried to maintain the palestinian areas as it is like blockaded. for 75 years or whatever. it is like they have to exist in

a prison. people say why don't they develop or do progressive and good things? how many thousands of palestinians are in prisons? the guy, the chief of the united nations said after that happened of course it is terrible and you hate to see terror, but it did not happen in a vacuum. when you have people oppressed and downtrodden and they feel like there is no hope you are going to have things like that. host: let us get a response. guest: thank you. i will just really quick. i do not think i said in any way that president biden was grieving the loss of haniyeh, or anyway sympathetic and i do not think i said that at all. what i think he said -- or what i said was that i thought his comment that the killing was unhelpful was not helpful.

so president biden i think is a good man. that sometimes has misguided policies and makes poor statements and that was one of them. he has a good man and he sees terrorist clearly. and it is good -- it is good that you hear me correctly on that. i think the primary reason a lot of people want a two state solution and a primary reason that we do not have a two state solution which has been on offer in the past and look at some of the discussions at camp david and the primary reason, not the only reason but the primary reason is because of groups like hamas. and when americans sit and talk about yes a two state solution following october assessment -- october 7 for many that is actually tone death because for their perspective if you were to provide a two state solution it would provide a more effective launching pad for the next october 7. if you are a country the size of new jersey and you have people

who want to kill you and do not recognize your right to exist. if you give them more power they will more effectively kill you. so there is an argument that a two state solution could provide that hope and provide palestinian self-determination and that would be a good thing. but we are further now from a two state solution that we were october 6 and that is hamas' fault. if you want palestinian determination you have to deal with the sick ideology with the groups like hamas. until you do that you will not have a two state solution. host: damien and marilyn. republican. good morning. caller: good morning. hello. can you hear me. excellent. i want to know, a couple of things i want to understand. i want to understand israeli politics, it is like ours. you have the far left, the far-right and the middle and how is that working out now?

why are people in israel protesting their own government because the government is trying to support them through annihilating hamas? i do not get it. these college students that protest here, i call them a bunch of weenies. netanyahu called them useful idiots. they have no idea what real struggles that israelites are going through right now. after they protest on campus they get in the car and go get there double oat milk latte and you know, they are really struggling out there. but i heard netanyahu speak and i really agreed with it. annihilation is the future of hamas. annihilation is the future of all of these terrorist groups. that is the only option. and the palestinians once they see there is no future with hamas, there are liberal palestinians who will say let's

get a better life for our children. thank you. guest: thank you for the call. two main issues, what is going on with israeli politics. and israel is protesting their own government. it is called democracy. and israel is the only democracy in the middle east. when you see israelis disagreeing with one another and criticizing their own government it sounds familiar and sounds like american democracy and i say that is healthy and good. and what a distinction between some of the other regimes that we see in the region and between the kind of authoritarian and totalitarian world that hamas and its co-labors would implement. some of the domestic turmoil that we saw with the judicial reform and some of the things that we frankly see on the far-right in israeli politics are incredibly unhelpful to israel and to american interests

but i say that in democracy, a diverse and rambunctious democracy like israel and the united states, disagreement and expressing your viewpoints is a good thing. you mentioned the protesters in the united states, speaking of freedoms i celebrate the right to free speech and peaceful protest. unfortunately a lot of what we saw on campus broke the law and there was a failure to impose consequences. a short distance from here and i hope americans saw what happened in front of union station. i hope you saw the graffiti that the protesters said that they love hamas and called for the annihilation of israel and said horrible things about jews, and the anti-american comments. not only did they burn an american flag at union station a few hundred feet from here but they defaced the american legion freedom bell. and who had to free -- to clean it up? the national park service,

trying to clean up some of this graffiti. so what is the point? the point is that these groups that are anti-semitic and anti-israel consistently are also anti-american. what is the point there? israel is fighting america's enemies and we are foolish not to provide them the means to not to go after the common adversaries. host: i want to ask about "the washington post" reporting the first u.s. air in iraq that targeted unspecified combatant and followed attacks on u.s. forces in recent days. what is happening in iraq? guest: we have been talking a lot about what has been happening in gaza, lebanon and israel. it is important to not miss that we have fellow citizens in harm's way. american service members in iraq and 900 in syria. they are not there on vacation but to help keep the isis caliphate defeated.

that is why they are there. and we have had since july 16 about five attacks on our forces including roughly two in iraq and three in syria. and then we had the response by the department of defense where they took out a one-way attack drone that the department of defense -- the department of defense believed would do another attack against our forces. here the point i would flag that from october 17 to february 4, iranian proxies -- proxies attacked our u.s. forces 165 times. 165 times from october 17 to october 4. how many times did we respond? nine. people say if we respond more frequently and strongly that the attacks would continue and sooner or later americans would die and horribly and sadly. that is what happened january 28 at tower 22 where three u.s. service members were killed. how did the administration

laudably and belatedly respond, we hit 85 target and then we killed the leader of hezbollah. what was the result? the attacks essentially stopped on our forces. we had two attacks in 22 weeks. 165 attacks in 15 weeks and then following a strong response two attacks in 22 weeks. what is the point? american strength fights aggressive. and then they tend to back down. let us hope the biden administration is taking notes because i see -- i worry we will see more attacks. host: bradley in georgia. democrat. hello. caller: i am old enough to remember when benjamin netanyahu told us that without a doubt hundred percent there were weapons of mass destruction in iraq. now, the israelis had the attack plans for a tober seventh year in advance and it took them 12 hours to respond. i am not -- my thing is that

abdomen -- ben netanyahu is a piece of crab. he will do anything to stay in power and i feel like it is repeating itself again. they are dragging us into a war with iran. this is not iraq. if we go to war in iran this will be a disaster for the planet. and i just feel like he is a bloodthirsty -- if you want to have terrorism, what israel is doing to palestinians then we will have this for decades to come. we do not want to appease terrorists, but i just feel like israel is just making us have no response but to go to war and deal with their enemies. it is of far right but not the whole state of israel. israel is not a democracy. it cannot be a jewish state and a democracy because if you are

not a jewish person you do not have the same rights. i fear that we are going down the same road. benjamin netanyahu will do anything not to go to jail. guest: a lot of content. the islamic republic of iran is the worst state sponsor of terrorism and they are inching towards a nuclear weapon. they are the puppetmaster behind these puppet proxy attacks on israel and they are very happy to have israel in the united states focusing on hezbollah, hamas and the houthis, and letting the puppetmaster sit back smiling. generally speaking this is going very well. we are not talking about the nuclear program but we should be and they are trying to sew division because like a bully they want to divide the adversaries and conquer them one by one. so, you suggest that iran is just israel's problem and that is misguided.

the islamic republic of iran is a global problem and a leading adversary of the united states and i hope you noticed that iran , russia and china are closer than they have been in a long time. iran has provided drones to putin that he has used to murder ukrainian men, women and children and russia will send advanced weapons to iran and i hope you saw the 25 year deal between iran and china that involves intelligence sharing and weapons development and military exercises in chinese money that will immunize iran from sanctions pressure. we are seeing an axis of aggressors develop and i think it is misguided to view iran as some irrelevant and someone else's problem. an axis is developing and america needs allies to respond in israel is our best ally. host: bradley bowman the center of military and political power

at the center for the defense of democracies. guest: thank you. host: up next more of your phone calls and open forum. can start calling us now. later a conversation with dr. peniel joseph the chair of political ethics and values at the university of texas-austin where we talk about the legacy of the 1964 civil rights act. we will be right back. ♪ >> today, watch c-span's 2024 campaign trail, a weekly roundup of c-span's campaign coverage discovering what the candidates around the country are saying to voters. along with first accounts from political reporters, whole numbers, fundraising data and campaign ads.

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you can also catch up on past conventions anytime on c-span.org/campaign or by scanning the code. >> the house will be in order. >> this year c-span celebrates 45 years of covering congress like no other. since 1979 we have been your primary source for capitol hill providing balanced and unfiltered coverage of government, taking you to where the politics are debated and decided with the support of america's cable companies. c-span, 45 years and counting, powered by cable. >> washington journal continues. host: we are back to open forum so we are interested to hear what you think about anything is -- that is going on public policy wise, politics, the election, and anything like that you can give us a call on our lines.

republicans, 202-748-8000. democrats, 202-748-8001. independents, 202-748-8002. we will start off with a portion from senator j.d. vance's remarks at the border just yesterday. [video clip] >> it is hard to believe until you see with your own eyes just how bad the policies of the kamala harris administration has been. they started their administration, kamala harris came into office making promises and she kept those promises to open the american southern border. they stopped deportation on day one and construction of the border wall. we see it sitting here ready to be completed behind us and that cannot happen because of kamala harris' administration. they reinstated catch and release and stopped remain in mexico. so all of these asylum claimants who come to the border can now get released into the country because they are not forced to stay in mexico while we

adjudicate their asylum claims. we have to remember that as terrible and idiotic as these policies were they caused real human beings to suffer. [end video clip] host: also the jobs numbers were just released about 20 minutes ago. by the labor department. unemployment rate jumps to 4.3% job gains just total 114,000 as labor slowdown deepens. this is from yahoo! finance. "the u.s. economy added fewer jobs than expected in july while the unemployment rate unexpectedly rose to its highest level in nearly three years. the latest sign of a broader summer slowdown in the u.s. labor market. the bureau of labor statistics released that the labor market added hundred 14,000 nonfarm payroll jobs in july, fewer than the 175,000 expected by economists." chris in louisville, kentucky.

democrat. caller: how are you doing? host: ok, what is you doing -- what is going on in louisville? caller: of the whole: -- the whole country is in turmoil. i want to sell -- tell you that you are marvelous that i was waiting for camille joseph. host: he is coming at about 9:15. caller: if that is -- is this a wasted call if you want to talk to him. host: just try to call us back. tom in boulder creek, california. independent. caller: thank you for taking my call and my question to c-span, why do you always bring guests that promote wars? for some reason, most of your guests are retired general to promote wars and weapons.

how about a guest to promote peace for god's sake or those who tell the truth instead of bringing in people who lie? thank you. host: so what do you think that brad bellman lied about? can you give me an example? caller: everything he said. he did not talk about the palestinian children who have died. how about the innocent palestinians who are in the west bank dying every day? how come he did not talk about the settlers who are burning homes and killing livestock and killing palestinians? i mean, c-span should be more fair when it especially comes to the middle east because the middle east is going to blow the whole worldup the way things are doing. thank you to netanyahu. he got 50 standing ovations when he came last week. 50 standing ovations. and this guy has 30% approval

rate in his own country. i think our politicians should be ashamed to stand up and down and up and down. host: alright. caller: i think we are headed in the wrong direction. we need some people to promote peace, please. host: michael in new york. independent. caller: hello, i was calling him because i hope that people when they are trying to decide who they will vote for in this election and political climate will look at robert f kennedy. i think he is the most legitimate candidate in the race. and he is the only candidate who is willing to talk about the most important issue that we face, which is near total corporate control of our government agencies in every way possible. and that is because of our political campaign system where unlimited donations can pour in.

we have those kinds of rules and the corporations will win and the citizens will lose. he has the most legitimate candidate. donald trump is delusional and harris is it'll helmet -- illegitimate. he is not a guy who was running for office his whole life like some of his -- some of these politicians. he is running because he has seen in the last decade and a half the corporate control of our government has become nearly total. he realizes that he has name recognition and the connections to make a legitimate run as an independent. so i really hope that people look at his campaign. you can find it at kennedy24.com. he has got very detailed policy positions laid out and the other strange thing is that these -- the networks refused to mention his name and they are issuing

these poll results where they show what harris and trump is getting and they will not mention his name even though he will get maybe 20% of the vote or more and they are putting out polls that do not include him. they are just lying to the people because they know that they put his name out there it will increase awareness of his campaign and it is more likely to do better. they keep putting out the polls where he is not included. host: michael did mention political campaign donations. this is "poltico" that says the harris campaign rakes and 310 million in july. the bite intern harris operation ended the month with a $50 million cash advantage. that is politico. mohammed in los angeles. democrat. caller: last saturday night kennedy was at a brazilian state

-- steakhouse in beverly hills and his security alone cost $50,000 and we cannot imagine the detail he had. and i wanted to make the point that i think joe biden played his cards so smart. i do not think he ever had the intention of running again. and he said he was going to run and he said he was going to run. they cleared out all of the opponents and then after all was said and done he got all of his accomplishments legislatively and then he said he would not run. harris would probably not have been able to ascend up so quickly if at all. they did a very beautiful job. had he said if he was not going to run over a year ago she would have been eight -- he would've been a lame-duck president and nothing would have been accomplished. beautiful work. and now with the release of the hostages by putin, most likely putin has signaled that he is going to be working with harris.

so beautiful work by the biden-harris team. host: who do you think putin would rather as a u.s. president, harris or trump? caller: definitely harris with the release of the hostages. trump is too damage. if he wants to reset the relations everyone will say he is a russian puppet and he is in putin's pocket. so right now he releases the hostages and he wants to start with a clean slate. most likely the war in ukraine will come to an end and this is a signal for a reset of relations between russia and the u.s. and russia and the west. for sure that he wants harris. the releasing was the hostages -- the releasing of the hostages was that trump was out. all of the bots were designed to attack biden and all of this is done. host: rush in pennsylvania.

independent. hello. caller: hello. good morning. actually i agree with the last guy. but, i am 72 years old and rather conservative. but one time i was a democrat and then a republican and now i am independent. rfk jr. is the first campaign that i ever donated to. but, i have come to see that i do not think that he has a chance. i donated because he did not even have secret service coverage at that point, at -- host: did you donate to pay for his security? caller: pardon? host: you donated to his campaign for his security

because you said he did not have any at the time? caller: i did not donate much. i'm retired. but when i heard he did not have secret service protection and his life was threatened two or three times, he was blaming it on resident biden, but now he does have -- i think when he was in pennsylvania a few weeks ago is when he got secret service protection. but i do not think he is going to win. i do think harris is going. biden could never be trump, but now it is kamala harris. i said this for two months now, she's going to pick john schapiro, our governor here in pennsylvania. host: what you think of him? caller: as far as his governorship, he will not let

her undermine the fracking that goes on around pennsylvania. i do not really care for him but i have my own personal reasons, when trump was running in 2020, and john schapiro was our attorney general at the time, and he was on with two different times on cnn, and jake was asking regular questions, and schapiro kept saying one thing, i guarantee that trump is not going to win pennsylvania. on two different shows he kept pressing that issue, but this time, a lot of people -- he's a moderate democrat. but she is going to pick him. i'm 99% sure because

pennsylvania is a very important state. host: that is what i wanted to ask. you are independent. have you decided who you are going to vote for? you seem to like kennedy. is that what you decided on? caller: no because -- you know what? i'm not -- my buddy told me one time there's no such thing as a wasted vote. i don't think rfk has a chance. his own family was against him. he comes from good stock. host: what are you going to do? are you going to keep us in suspense? who are you going to vote for? pennsylvania is a swing state. caller: i'm probably going to vote for trump. are you going to cut me off now? host: no. caller: ok, real quick, if i could. now, that host testing had on, i watched the yahoo! address

congress, and i could not believe that they introduced him as his excellency. and they said it twice. and then kamala harris, neither one was there, nancy pelosi wasn't there. i find it weird that my daughter was watching with me, and she said elon musk was there. i said what? i cannot believe they introduced him as his excellency. like he's the king of england or something. host: we are going to talk to jim, republican, indiana. caller: thank you for taking my call. don't take this personally, but c-span proclaims that it does not permit a caller to attack the host, but when they have invited a host to speak, on july

18, you did not push back on the controversial host, sebastian, who i think had nazi ties, viciously attacked a caller. i was really disappointed in that. but i think you do a good job generally, but that really hurt, i thought. he should not have been able to do that. thank you very much. host: i was not on at the time, but i appreciate your feedback. penny, new york, independent. caller: good morning. i'm calling because i think we are at a time when there is so much division. i think we should not be able to have a potus that is democrat, and, also, -- we should have a democrat or republican as

president and then a democrat or republican as vice president and we should be able to elect two people so they can work across the aisle. host: all right, let's talk to michelle, los angeles, democrat. caller: good morning. i was wading through all of the newspapers and the wall street journal has an article -- [indiscernible] host: michelle, you are breaking up. try again. caller: can you hear me now? host: yes, go ahead. caller: so, "in the wall street journal -- so in "the wall street journal," they had an article about the fact that the local police and secret service in pennsylvania, when there was an attempt on the ex-presidents life, they could not communicate with one another because the equipment wasn't adequate.

one of the issues i would like both candidates to address is the technology infrastructure. there is a book by christian burroughs called "kill team," and he talks about the tech, technology labs in the united states that makes us vulnerable if we ever had to have a war with china or russia, so i would just like both candidates to address that. host: all right. paul, louisiana, republican. caller: good morning. my name is paul. i'm making a comment. when the supreme court banned

roe v. wade, they had thousands of deaths because a mother decided to kill their babies. and we have a president who does what? supports abortion and supports abortion throughout the world. yet, he calls himself a devout catholic. that is a shame because the catholic church does not accept abortion as a choice of removing life. in fact, it brings up life, and it is sad to see how this man,

who calls himself a catholic, is using all of the tools to help the mothers kill their babies. host: staying in louisiana, republican caller. caller: yes, ma'am. i'm a republican, and we will vote for trump, and i think all of the people who don't have had their head in the sand. it is a disgrace how they have run this country. host: all right, tony, texas, independent. caller: good morning. this is the first time i've gotten to talk to you. i would like to talk about immigration, i find it complicit that c-span has never told listeners that the failed immigration bill, do not hang up

on me, please. also, to the fact that there were restrictions in the first year was only you could close the border 270 days, and the second year, it went down to 180 days and then 90 days, and this information was never told. second thing i would like to talk about his united nations southern summit sphere -- southern some us -- southern hemisphere plan, the united nations has given $1.6 billion to over 40 ngo's to move millions of migrants up from the southern hemisphere up. look it up. this is what is going to happen in the future. right now, the mexican president is putting his finger on the

race. he is putting that army out there, holding back most of these migrants. once the race is over, watch out. look it up. southern migration plan for the southern hemisphere migration plan. thank you. have a great day. host: jim, wisconsin, independent. caller: good morning. where i work, there are 93 of us , 56 are married or living together. we made our own polling box because nobody here, according to the box, has done any presidential polling. nobody has called anybody on the phone, nobody has come to the front door of the house, nothing , so he made a little polling box. as of this week, everybody is voting for harris. they don't like un-american

trump. that is why i'm calling. thank you. host: philadelphia, democrat, debbie. caller: good morning. first of all, her name is kamala . i do not understand the difficulty. as it is for black folks. you had a gentleman on earlier as a guest, and he talked about how it was not time for a two state solution. what we have to remember now that's not what we said too long ago about enslaved people here,, it was not time and they call themselves the united states of america. we need to be -- united snakes of america. we need to be careful and

how to listen. there is a certain attitude out here about certain human beings. and this gentleman was very angry when he talked about what has happened over here. and that is what people went through in this country. that is why they had the war because you had a certain group of folks who felt as though it was not time. just remember that. host: larry, ohio, independent. caller: good morning. these two wars, like president trump has said all along, drill, baby, drill. oil on the market made that millions of market spread we should have slowed the oil market if trump would have been elected in 2020, both wars would

not have happened. russia and iran fear a strong president, and if the u.s. would have flooded the market with our oil in 2020, all these crazy leftist agendas also would not be happening. especially 10 million illegals in our country. not saying that a lot of those people are not good people, but there are a lot of terrorists, as i listen to the fbi, this is the highest terrorist threat since 9/11. americans, think about this. good day, c-span. host: real quick, political news from nbc news, the house freedom caucus chairman loses the virginia recount. john acquire nearly ousted him in the fifth district of virginia. the virginia court certified

that win. next, a talk with peniel joseph from the university of texas at austin. we are talking about history and legacy of the 60th anniversary of the 1964 civil rights act. status. -- stay with us. ♪ >> american history tv, saturdays on c-span2, exploring the people and events that tell the american story. at 3:30 eastern, professor clinton on the rise of public polling on political issues from 19 century the modern times. i 4:30 eastern, july 4 celebration featuring a reading of the declaration of independence by actors portraying historical characters, including abigail adams, benjamin franklin, thomas

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with balanced, unfiltered coverage of government, taking you to where the policy is debated and decided all to support the american cable company. c-span, 45 years and counting, powered by cable. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back to "washington journal." . we are joined by peniel joseph, the center or study of race and democracy director and lgb school at the university of texas in austin. thank you for joining us. welcome. professor, july marked 60 years since the 1964 civil rights act was signed into law. what would you say is the legacy of that landmark gestation? guest: well, the legacy is really profound. the 1964 civil rights act passed into law july 2 by president

johnson, and is the most sweeping civil rights legislation since civil rights construction, and it and racial discrimination in theaters, in hiring, in places of business, but it also protected folks from gender discrimination. women who would use the legislation to gain access to collegiate athletics, sports, and push for pay equity. it is really a transformative moment in american history in terms of citizenship and dignity, which is what the civil rights movement was all about for all people, and it provides the context for what we are going to see a little over a year later with voting rights act on august 6, 1965, so it is a sweeping game changer and provides the context of things

like the americans, the ada, americans with disability act, it provides the context for gay marriage. it provides the context for more freedoms for groups of people who have been marginalized. it really is legislation that is inclusive of race but goes beyond it, as well. like i said before, it prevents this clinician based on six, as well. it is a game changer. and when we think about the civil rights act, president kennedy proposed that legislation, and it is within the context of both simultaneously the assassinations of people like medgar evers, the assassination of the four children in birmingham, alabama, and really two young boys who were killed alongside the four girls, and

then president kennedy's assassination in 1963 provides the context for the bill to be passed. host: professor, what would you say specifically change the lives of lack people at that time and that was signed into law? guest: i think the act is connected with social movements that are purses -- that are precipitating it. 1963 was a pivotal year in american history. we see the most of people in the most demonstrations for social justice, so there will be citizens, colons, and we remember birmingham, alabama in the spring of 1963 and dr. martin luther king's letter from birmingham jail, but there is really a protest happening in oakland, california, los angeles, new york, new jersey,

st. louis, and that is i when john f. kennedy comes on national television on june 11, 1963, he said to the american people that there was a revolution happening, and it can be violent or peaceful, so when we think about the legislation passed in july of 1964, paralleling that legislation are continued movements for dignity and citizenship. the student nonviolent coordinating committee is organizing freedom summer throughout mississippi, and they will be over 2000 volunteers. many of them who work with local people, many of them jewish volunteers who are trying to bring small d democracy to the magnolia state. in fact, a few weeks before the passage of the civil rights act, three civil rights workers, two white and one black, andy

goodman, james cheney were murdered outside of philadelphia, mississippi, and their bodies are not going to be recovered until august 4, 1964. it is not an instantaneous success in that way. people are literally dying. all comics is about to go to cairo when the civil rights act was passed and is reporting on the harlem rebellion that happened late july. host: professor, i wanted to ask about when you mentioned it was president kennedy here initially announced he was going to be pursuing civil rights legislation. what was the initial reaction to that across the country? guest: for those who are for civil rights, it will be very positive. when he announces it at the same time there is momentum building for the march on washington, which happens august 20 8, 1963,

for southern dixiecrats, democrats and republicans opposed to racial integration, it is a very negative announcement. in a way, that announcement means that the past that happened after reconstruction where it really falters because the government refuses to intervene and intercede on behalf of human rights or black people, kennedy's announcement is that pack is falling down. so the announcement is going to be greeted, it is with cheers and black communities, but there is a lot of trepidation in white communities that feel it will transform their way of life in a way that they do not want change. host: we have a portion of president lyndon johnson moments before signing that civil rights act into law. this is july 2, 1964.

here he is. [video clip] >> our generation of american has been called on to contain the unending search for justice within our own borders. we believe that all men are created equal. yet, many are denied equal freedom. we believe that all men have certain unalienable rights but many americans do not enjoy those rights. we believe that all men are entitled to the blessings of liberty, yet, millions are being deprived of those lessons. not because of their own failures, but because of the color of their skin. the reasons are deeply embedded in history and tradition and the

nature of and. we can understand without rank or hatred how this all happened. but it cannot continue. our constitution, the foundation of our public, the principles of our freedom for bidding. morality forbids it. and the law i will sign tonight for visit. host: professor joseph, can you talk about lbj's role in getting this past through congress, despite opposition? guest: certainly, when we think about lbj, we talk about him as the master of the senate, the former senate majority leader who goes through his own evolution on race matters. as vice president, he is very

close to this issue in many ways, especially by 1963. he does a terrific keynote address at gettysburg, pennsylvania, talking about black citizenship and dignity. once he becomes president on november 22, 1963, the next few days, he's talking to roy wilkins and dr. martin luther king jr., whitney young, and many other civil rights leaders about what needs to be done. he really uses the president's death to galvanize what he envisioned as a great society, a society that is a continuation of fdr's new deal that enhances freedoms for everyone and all people. and, certainly, lyndon johnson, alongside the lobbying efforts

done by king and thousands of grassroots organizations is very, very pivotal to getting the votes needed, especially in the senate because you need 67 votes in the senate at that time, not 60, to get legislation passed. so he really uses the presidency in extraordinary ways, but he is also the washington insider who had worked for franklin delano roosevelt, who had been a congressman, a senator, he understands the hard driven transactional politics that are behind the scenes in washington, d.c., and he does everything in his power to make sure the legislation is successful. host: we are taking your calls for peniel joseph on the line by region. in the eastern time zones, (202)-748-8000.

mountain or pacific, (202)-748-8001. he will be with us until the end of the program at 10:00 a.m. eastern. professor joseph, what do you say -- what is your assessment about where we are today and how the civil rights act has aged up until this point to the present moment? guest: in certain ways, we can see the deep progress we've made the past 60 years when we look at aspects of our politics. certainly without the civil rights act of 1964 and voting rights act of 1965, we would not have the first african-american president and barack obama, vice president in kamala harris. there is real progress that has been made. at the same time, we can see after the 2013 decision, the

throwing out of section five, we have seen more efforts successful at voter suppression in the united states, gerrymandering, which really hurts voters of color in the united states, and there has been all kinds of assaults and attacks on the civil liberties of people who were not just black, but people who were queer , women, people with disabilities, so we are really at an inflection point where the very strength of something like the 1964 civil rights act is been called into question. there are people who would like to end birthright citizenship in the united states, which is connected to the 14th amendment and the end of slavery in the united states, just like the civil rights act is a continuation of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments, and the

civil rights act. so in a lot of ways, where we are at today is a crossroads of how do we both protect this legislation from 60 years ago, but how do we expanded? there is a george floyd justice policing act yet to be passed, a john lewis voting rights act to both restore section five but also expand access to voting, so there is still a lot of work to be done, but i think the reason why people focus on the 60th anniversary is because it was such a watershed moment. and i would add today is the 100th birthday of james baldwin, the writer and thinker and activist who did so much to also hope that civil rights act be passed.

and lyndon johnson or john f. kennedy talk about him. he met with robert of kennedy, the attorney general, in may of 1963 and had a seminar discussion about civil rights, and his best-selling book in 1963, published as the longest essay, published in november of 1962, is one of the game changing documents for the second reconstruction, right there on letter from birmingham jail. he really transformed how we think about race and slavery and the american democracy and citizenship, and the very idea of the war on political groups in the united states forever. so baldwin is someone very key when you talk about the 1964 civil rights act, and today would have been his 100th

birthday and it is important to recognize and remember him. caller: good morning, dr. joseph? guest: yes. caller: good morning, dr. joseph. i'm an avid fan -- i holly. and i follow your work. thank you christina bobb james baldwin. he is one of my heroes -- thank you. i follow your work. james baldwin is one of my heroes. with the 60th anniversary of the civil rights act, too many times people do not realize all the time in america, african americans have had to struggle. we all know about blackwell street, -- black wall street, but that was an anomaly. african-americans were driving all over america until they were

brushed aside, and i wish you would name a couple more of the african-americans who were driving and they were cut off at the knee because of racism. guest: absolutely. thank you for the call. when you think about the civil rights act, this is a culmination of a long history of struggle. you alluded to tulsa in 1921 and the black wall street, but certainly there is st. louis, chicago, atlanta, arkansas, rosewood, florida, there are really going to be hundreds, really thousands of small, large and medium-sized cities going back to hamburg, north carolina, and mississippi, and new orleans , and tennessee, where there are these racial programs that are

anti-black but also destroy areas and freedom colonies were black people had built up at times thriving businesses, and had built up a measure of wealth through agriculture, through ownership of land, and through collective mutual aid society. and that is often under discussed. i think and aftermath of george floyd and breonna taylor, we talked about it more as a nation. since then, there has been a huge backlash against talking about that 6019 project and all the efforts to talk about this. when you think about the civil rights act, what we have to remember is that at the time, it is hugely even revolutionary legislation, but it does not go far enough in this sense. this is what i think that caller is discussing. when you think of racial slavery in the united states, racial slavery in the united states is

the expropriation of black wealth, not only through the labor of 4 million enslaved african-american people, so they are not just slaves but enslaved human beings with hopes, dreams, poetry, and genius like all of us, so it is not just the recreation of their wealth but the united states turns them into commodity, so they do not physically build up ivy league schools and universities and build up wall street in new york city, but they are used as commodities, just like when we think about mortgage interest rates. they are used for speculation, and enslaved people in the united states, the caribbean, all across the world, become used as commodities to create undreamed of wealth locally in the united states, so it is not just caught and tobacco and

sugar. it is putting out life insurance policies on enslaved people. ideas enslaved people who create whiskey distillation, and all that wealth is extracted from them to whites in ways that ending a jim crow sign does not fit, right, and saying, hey, you can go to the university of texas does not fit. so a huge wealth gap we face in the united states, and in a capitalist society, a wealth gap is a life cap. it means you will not have the same intergenerational health care, the same kind of access to education, and you will not be able to utilize the political system in the same way that communities who are wealthy can. so, historically, we have been

perpetually disadvantaged in perpetuity in ways that president johnson did not understand. i think baldwin understood. i think king overtime understands. certainly people like ella baker, richardson understood, malcolm x understands. when you think about the legislation, it is the tip of the iceberg. i love that president johnson talked about history and tradition. in this country, through history and tradition, capitalism works one way. it is anti-black, based on the expropriation of lack labor and black jeans -- black labor and genius so it can be transferred into white hands. that is the way this system works. it should not work that way, but that is the way it does. the civil rights act to not in that. it could not because you would

have to be much more innovative -- the civil rights act did not end data. it cannot because you would have to be much more innovative and radical. thank you. host: best talk to eric, virginia -- let's talk to eric, virginia. caller: good morning. i see like to fact check, so i would like for you to check and see how many democrat senators voted against the civil rights act as opposed to republicans. also, there is something not being told. i'm 85 years old. when [indiscernible] mr. biden made the statement that he did not want to send his kids to the jungle. i will never hear that from you or anybody else, but that is a

fact. and you can check that, too. host: let's talk about it. go ahead. guest: a couple of things, i'm sure biden could have said something like that. many politicians were anti-bussing. bussing was very, very controversial, and blessing was just one way to achieve balance, but a better way would have been providing equal funding for districts if they were segregating based on race. bussing was one of the ways in which certain renovations felt if they did this, they would be able to send their kids to schools that were well resourced. when it comes to the democrat and civil rights act, a lot of republicans did something confused. and this is what i mean, the democrat send republicans, they

have switched. they have changed places. the academic view is called realignment. what i mean is the party of lincoln, antislavery and abolition was historically the republican party. the party of segregation was historically the democratic party. in the 1960's, this changes. it starts with roosevelt in the 1930's and 1940's, but by kennedy and lyndon johnson, the party of abolition and the party of human rights becomes a democratic party. the party of pro-segregation becomes the republican party, but within the democratic party, there is a group of southern segregation. colloquially, they are called dixiecrats and they vote against the civil rights act, but the idea that somehow

contemporary republicans are the party of lincoln is ludicrous and a fantasy, right? so you have got to own who you are, so all the republicans out there who would like to say it was a democrat who did it back in the day, yes, that is true, democrats were racists back in the day, but when we talk about the 1960's, it is the grand old party that is the party of racism, that is the party of unapologetic white supremacy before trump and trumpism. so the 85-year-old caller, those are the facts that you should embrace. there is no got you moment in terms of joe biden being anti-bussing or certain democrats being anti-bussing. yes, that happens but the contemporary republican party as the party of pro-segregation, the party of murdering, killing

and lynching black people, and it is fine if people would like to vote for that party but that is morally reprehensible and politically indefensible, and everybody who votes that we should own up to it and stop lying to themselves and their children and grandchildren. host: let's go to chicago, illinois. good morning. caller: good morning. good morning, dr. joseph. hi. i am a teacher. i'm a direct action is and organized mutual aid, and we will be hosting an event tonight in chicago, but -- they're going to be free clothing, decor, learning. what i've always tried to do, i take a lot of inspiration from ella baker. i learned more from her than most other people, and barbara ramsey's book is deeply inspirational to me.

i was wondering, because there was such wealth and wisdom and learning in the time of civil rights movement all the way down to today, and i'm wondering what idea, strategy wisdom you might want to share with us to help us like it there this moment and help us build a culture of democratic dialogue based learning that can change the world and help people understand each other better. thank you. guest: thank you for that question. i think the three things are always educate, organize, agitate, and i think you learned that from ella baker, who is the organizer of the student nonviolent -- nonviolent coordinating committee, snicc would be joined by others who are trying to bring small

democracy to southwest georgia, arkansas, alabama, and other parts of the united states in the 1960's. this idea of education is important. i think the story that we need to tell is a very positive story, and the story of transformation in the way in which the struggle for black dignity and citizenship is the key, central, the beating heart of american democracy, and that is the story that black reconstruction tells, that the 1916 project tells, that the work of people like bell hooks tells, ella baker, malcolm x, and martin luther king jr. tells, so if you share that story, one thing i will say is that dignity is important. malcolm x is a proponent of radical black dignity, and malcolm argues that dignity is god-given, and that all people are born with dignity,

just what he pushes back against the need for external recognition of citizenship. all citizenship is is the recognition by institutions, bylaws and nationstates for our inherent dignity, so what we need to do is educate young people of all colors, backgrounds, and this is hard to do in a country that would like a book ban, a country that would like to have which trials, this is more than mccarthyism, this is super exploitation, and a push towards banning of speech and banning of black history, which is american history. i love what you said you are doing in chicago. we have to organize wherever we are for a civic democracy, small d democracy, not democracy that

is republican or democrat, it is more of this idea or out of many one, we all have a voice in this democracy to share, and that our voice matters, and our lives matter. so we have to organize, share and churches, synagogues, mosques, we have to organize with people who are straight, queer, trans, who are asian american, who are mx. again american, who were haitian, latino, african, white, we have got to organize everybody. and the owner agitation is very important and i love that you say you are a nonviolent organizer. what ella baker does is school people on how to organize and agitate nonviolently and really change the world.

so you do have to agitate, you do have to say i disapprove of book bans, and dei firings that happened at the university of texas, i was over one of 600 professors assigned a letter protesting that, but we also went out and protested, and people still got fired, but we made our voices heard. we have to tell people, look, the anti-dei push in the united states and the whole notion of anti-wokeness, this is the new version of jim crow. and this is just like the fugitive slave laws of the 1840's and 1850's, where you have to know where you can go, where you can escape to. harriet tubman and the underground railroad. so we are back in those times. we have to educate, organize,

agitate, and explain to new generations and people who are of goodwill and stand in solidarity beyond alley ship. because our ship is convenience. solidarity, i come from a union background. my mother was part union in mount sinai hospital and i was on my first picket line in elementary. and the reason why we trusted each other is that we saw each other on the picket lines. we were in solidarity with each other. and i'm old enough to remember when people carried thermoses full of coffee and smoked and smoked endless cigarettes on picket lines in new york city on east 92nd street. that is where i'm coming from. so i've seen how solidarity works. how it got us better health care. it got us better dental care. and that created a context where i could get my phd and write a number of books, teach, and travel the world in a way in

which i never would have imagined or been able to do by myself. so this idea of changing and struggling together is important. finally, i will say that james baldwin is very important. on the 100th birthday of james baldwin, one of the things he said was the idea of facing this racial nightmare and achieving our country, and a lot of people misunderstand what he's talking about. he's not naive. he's not somebody who is just a pathological optimist. baldwin actually understands the promise and aspiration of american democracy in a way in which black people are the central players in that promise. so all he is saying is that here is what we could do together to reimagine america in a way where we can finally begin to ask the question that get us to a new

future. and it is a letter to the future, to us, to try to transform what he is calling that racial nightmare. but to do so, it is educate, organize, agitate. host: i would like to get more people in if possible. tom, virginia, you are next. caller: thank you. i think you are an absolute perfect example of what happens when you focus your life on only understanding one side of the entire discussion. i think what the american people are waking up to is the results of all of the race baiting, and the victimhood that you are perpetrating against your own people. i think that the american people, all american people are waking up to the fact that the democrat party upholds the

liberal philosophy of victimhood by the states and that has resulted in the black community being annihilated by the policies that you are perpetrating, the excuses for failure, the blaming instead of taking responsibility. i think all you have to do is look at the 17 intercity neighborhoods that are responsible for about 90% of the homicides, young black men killing other young black men. that is all a direct, and the homelessness, the hopelessness, the drug addiction, the violence. all of that is a direct outcome, a direct result. and all you have to do is look at the actual facts instead of listen to this pie-in-the-sky philosophy of victimhood. all you have to do is look at the facts that before all of

this was brought about by people like you, instead of people at frederick douglass who said don't make excuses for failure -- host: all right, we will take at this point. guest: i think, one, all the things that the caller is talking about impact the white community. if you would like to say kids being born out of wedlock, white on white crime parallels black on black crime, if you would like to talk about black people -- white people committing high rates of homicide, financial crime and white-collar crime, the opioid crisis, and white people having hopelessness and endemic poverty, so that is one thing. the other is that the idea that talking about racism and white supremacy is somehow pushing victimhood is just kind of like a conservative 101 philosophy

that is not really based on any kind of reality but it becomes a political talking point, and it is ready to be imbibed and ingested by groups of people who do not know any black people, they don't live next to them, and they don't care to know them or understand their history or their stories, right. so just repeating that and repeating that does not make the deeper history go away. and it is not victimhood to talk about structural racism and white supremacy. it is not victimhood to talk about why the wealth gap, and really, historically, the only failure in the united states has not been black people historically because black people have not ever been given an opportunity to compete in terms of capitalism equally. so it is really a failure of white mediocrity where there is

the inability to allow black people to compete, whether it is in higher ed, business and other places, by callers such as that caller. and that has always been around from the inception of the republic. and i would guess that it will continue to be around. but i would argue that there are actually more americans were waking up to believing that we can actually do something different and be better and not just go back to talking points. and also, even -- what i heard in that conversation, what is interesting is that there is so much fear and anger and alienation and even hatred that people are looking for something different. people want hope instead of being caught and captured by their fear. so i think we are actually on

the precipice of going in a different direction than listening to the same old lies of why the racial divide in the united states. host: james, virginia. caller: good morning. i'm curious, is this a talk about lbj and civil rights? lbj was a lifelong republican [indiscernible] i personally believe lbj -- i like in best of all politicians. but he played both sides. hewitt to the republican leadership in the senate -- he went to the republican leadership in the senate to bring in more republicans with his bill. i cannot remember the leadership of the republican party, but lbj told him, if you do this, your name will go down in history.

i don't remember his name, i remember lbj. host: go ahead, professor. guest: he's talking about everett dirksen. lbj did rely on republican votes. and it is a much different republican party. that is what contemporary republicans and this gentleman said he was a trump supporter, just do not understand. truthfully, a lot of times they do not want to understand. the republican party was a different party that had both liberals, like governor nelson rockefeller from new york, it had people like everett works in -- everett dirksen who were willing to cut a deal. it was not a hard right conservative party or leninist party where you all voted the same way or you are going to be ousted. that is insanity. but that is what it has become. in a way, when we talk about the civil rights where lyndon

johnson is bipartisanship, this is before the era of hyper partisanship and when you think about the two parties, there was only one party that has become not just hyper-partisan but blatantly antidemocratic, interested only in voter suppression, interested in racial segregation, interested in exacerbating the wealth gap, and there was only one party that is running someone who was a convicted felon for president. this is all outside of the norm of the ronald reagan, george w. bush, george bush, mitt romney republican party. it has changed and transformed, so people supporting it now, they are something different than from -- i don't think they understand that. the problem is that they do not want to understand that because it is hard to educate people who do not believe in education.

it is hard to live in a democracy if you have a whole bunch of people who do not believe in democracy and believe in authoritarianism in that sense. host: peniel joseph is a center for study of race and democracy director, also public affairs professor at the university of texas in austin. thank you for joining us today. guest: thank you, mimi. host: that is it for today's "washington journal." thank you to everybody who watched or called in. we will be back tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. eastern. now we will take you to live coverage of joint chiefs of staff chairman general brown taking part in a ceremony for retiring national guard chief general daniel hogans and, -- general daniel, underway now. ♪ ♪