the 35 minutes on the w i. she's got issues with a lot see who the turkey is. a longstanding member of nato with the alliance, the 2nd largest army. but it's president is becoming an increasingly difficult partner defaming israel, a specialist for his and come us as liberators. that posted diplomatic challenge for germany as chancellor, as he prepared to receive the turkish leaders. under everyone's rule, turkey has flexed its muscles near and far seeking to project power from the caucasus to the mediterranean. according both russia and china. the president's

autocratic policies at home and his abrasive actions abroad, or alienating partners who none the less depend on hampton is turkey on a collision course with nato. today we're asking between nato and tomas. what is our once and the welcome to to the point? it is a great pleasure to greet our guest starting with the like career fun. she is a visiting researcher at berlin, social sciences center, and she has also reported in the past for turkish media. i'm also very pleased to welcome to tell us of an aria sees an international correspondence for germany soup, georgia site and he has been based in the middle east and recorded also from east envelope. and with us is dental is polenta more my. she is an independent correspond did for both the turkish and german media also for darcia of ela. and he

does join us from his temple. i'll come to you to like, just before departing for a visit to, to germany, president alto and stepped up, his harsh rhetoric on the conflict in gaza. declaring is real to be quote, a terrorist state and more criminal. and calling the crisis a matter of cross and crescent, that practically sounds like holy warfare. what's behind all this venom? i mean, you know, sense he's being typical aren't on this. he has done this in the past and not just when israel is concerned, but he's speaking to domestic, constitute that that's his main targets. i mean, we have the election was coming in turkey municipal elections next year. so he's trying to mobilize the base, consolidated in turkey, public opinion, opinion is very pro palestinian against israel. there's always this on high isabel

sentiments that he wants to, you know, sort of mobilize. and i think he's also counting on the fact that fits. he will once again get away with it because he's always gotten away with it in terms of his relations with the west. he doesn't expect any of you percussion, from nato, and from your opinion weiss and if you'd like to tell us what you're hearing from people, there are these statements by otto on resonating with his political base, but also with other tucker citizens. well actually as we are divided into 2 nations, we as we are a huge, a pull rice country at last sentences broke for his audience. but for the, for regular people, what against team it doesn't for as the like set of course, it's a pro palestinian community in turkey. but as long as harsh notes are not being accepted by the whole community. and so if you status thomas this rhetoric, this bashing of israel comes just about 6 weeks after the turkish and is rarely

leaders actually met on the sidelines of the united nations general assembly in new york. and added one, held out the prospect of intensive cooperation between the 2. and he clearly had some very concrete economic goals in mind. so what's with the abrupt switch? what do we all know that as long as a very populous to leader and the relation of his role then? so if you have been disrupt before, so he's just riding the wave and the switching positions. i don't know if you can get so easily know because he said is or has no right of existence, but he's also not only concentrating on the trucks. population is also looking on the wider muslim world. and we all know that the perspective of the white and was in the world is different from the west, and you'll be, or german, or united states perspective towards as well. so i think in the white a muslim world, he's probably say making points at the moment. let's take

a closer look at our other ones, abrupt switch from court and use realtor bashing. it entered, promoting hate rather than the regional cooperation that he was seeking just 6 weeks ago. when never talk, just president out one has spoken about the middle east. recently, he verbally attacked israel and the west israel. we will denounce you as a rule, criminal in front of the whole world. you got the main culprits behind domestic unfolding and cause a is the west how much, how much is not a terrorist organization, but a group as much as dean, defending the land of the guy that was that go down the well with many of kentucky and close outraging the west adder one makes no mention of the east riley victims of the headmaster terror attacks as someone connected to both the palestinians and

east royal adder. one initially offered to mediate out of one house. and the mess is right aly prime minister netanyahu in september for the 1st time. but how serious wall to you about this new friendship experts have long ago and is that turkey has been a safe haven for him. mass members, as recently as july out of one received is my, you know, he is a political leader of the minutes and just, i'm still going to zation in ankara, pro palestinian and pro her mas, what is the turkish president's goal? let me go over to you do lunch and pick up on the final point that we heard in that report about tirty being a safe haven for her mouse. in fact, it has been described as have my 2nd largest base of operations after gaza and is dental is a major possibly the major source of financing for her mouse operations. so would

you go so far as to say that without turkey support, how much would not have the capacity to launch operations of the kind that it did on october 7th? actually, that's not a fair a comments, because if somebody might be just that for, for them to just be a political base, we know that they're being supplied by cuts out and by your event. so turkey is not induct induction case to keep, is that that a big issue for how much? but we know that all that will be shows most of the patients. what do you need? somebody not gonna talk you later. thanks to let me ask whether either of our guests in the studio would disagree without assessment. i wouldn't disagree. i would agree. and if somebody has the main base of the arrow position over the world, i mean from all the muslim from illinois and countries, people are based and assembled because there's no place to be at home because of the they can move around. so i think if you want to know who financially supports

you wrong, you have to i'm us, you have to look to iran 1st and then to cut the political support for sure. and out on the supporting the muslim brotherhood movements all over the air. gold, a moss is an off spring of the muslim brotherhood. so it's more or less logical that he supports a mouse. and um, is doing it now in a very loud way. do you like, is there an ideological affinity between the a k t party a everyone's party in turkey and him us to? yes, certainly. i mean, our, don't you mean, isn't it as too much that over you'll also are going to see some self as he aspires to be the leader of the muslim world. well, of course, the muslim world is also divided in terms of political power, but he certainly is on the side with him us. and i think it is important to see that. i mean, he's on the one hand, he is see 1st, who is well politic with oldest anti is rarely back to the for example,

he doesn't sanction israel. there are reports in turkish media of shipments from turkey. continuing to go to israel, you know, he's doing trade because you know, he wants to live. so that's the way i put it. but then we also have to see the ideological side of it could be an ard on and that is, um, he definitely is a, you know, it's political, he's on as long as, and i think it's not just, i think we have to be careful about the character i just just against the current is really government, but that is a div sentiment also interpret society of um on titusville on ty semitism which i think he also personally shares and he's playing, you know, so he's playing a game of both that as long as as i said earlier, he can't get away with us, you'll continue doing that. let me come back to the game of both with you. thomas. actually shortly after the october 7th attack by him us on israel. the other one said in a telephone call with german chancellor shots that he sees

a turkey as being ready to mediate in this conflict. and clearly that's part of the end that you talked about about being a leader in the islamic world in the region. how see now with his statements thoroughly disqualified himself for any mediating roll or, or his ties to her mouth perhaps exactly what's needed? well, i try to explain that ad one is with type that reacts to situations. so he offered to me, do it enough gun. this time he offered to me that ukraine. he's also really successful, but he's always offering because it sounds good. but and no, i'm, i'm, i think he stepped the red line. you know, to come to germany after you said israel has no right of existence as a federal state. it will be quite difficult for him to get common ground to schultz, but he's playing that game quite quite systematically and bill. and if i can ask you, um it was mentioned uh by uh by d, like just now at israel is

a very important economic partner for turkey. trade between the 2 is expensive and it's also expanding oil weapons. and it's just at that meeting in new york that i mentioned between that on yahoo and other one in late september turkey also held out the prospect of much stronger cooperation on tech and on uh and uh, and on energy as well. and the 2 issues. it's so important in talking nowadays. now we have the election on march, and we are suffering a huge economic price because of both issues. edwin cannot open a direct, economical, financial lot against israel. as you know, anything to reason is a huge crime. you will need to keep, and if you are calling the country as a federal country, like i said for you to have. and now every day term sheet time sheets are going from turkey. chevy and still carrying food, carrying petrol from turkish costs to as well. so she is helping that piece calling

. he's the cruise country he's, i think the reason. right, so it seems early, so he's just facing and using it for him through the politics to be able to use it the 1st time with this is the speech stuff. so it's all just, he kept cups of ice. he was a, when a turkish sally has been stop 10 years. so what has been stopped, but he's male, the forces and step towards the still hoping to the same address. some was something with his own ships, petroleum preserves. so it's just a game. a double game. do like explain something else that appears that at least 2 outside eyes to be a contradiction. or the one condemns the bombing of gaza by israel. yet he regularly orders were planes to bomb kurdish territories in northern syria, including areas near the us troops that are battling isis. how does he rationalize that he doesn't have to?

because he's not ask these questions, but certainly not in turkey because we have to go to almost total control over the media. but also in other words, by the west. and i think that's one of the main 2 main fundamental problems here. we don't see coverage in the middle of states and actually of what he's doing in northern siri up, which is under turkish occupation. so he's applying actually another country against international law. and of course, using, as he said, you know, bombing it as it is. and that's if you would ask him, he would customize that of counter terrorism because he considers the people id which you know, it represents the armed a kurdish groups in syria as opposed organization which is not shared by the west. and the us not by the you to, from his world view, it makes total sense because it's old terrorism because our service and on israel is also right. that's how the characterizes it of these kind of questions about because he doesn't have to explain any contradiction. she just says it's and does

it, it is the west but meeting needs to hold him accountable for all of these, you know, he's violations of international law, but also he's violations of your peers, nissan or. so let's talk about the west in the form of nato. a thomas in fact, and a one is the only nato leader who has expressed open support of him by us that has been widely reported in questions has been asked yet. nato secretary general strong about play that down this week saying uh, i quote, the terrorist to get a support for the terrace group on the part of everyone poses no problem for nato because the alliance plays no role in the is rarely, i'm us conflict really well i mean, what shows still some good signal and so it is the 2nd biggest army and they to, it's a very well equipped then very forceful on me. so adam plays the game with nato for quite a long time. he's blocking sweden's membership and they to address just pulling

nato and natal cannot afford to kick him out later. just need some and they just need stroke. is it borders, russel borders? the caucasus has both of the queen. so what, what fun they to do? so spoken back is trying to avoid the problem present. it sounds like thomas is telling us that turkey has made over a barrel, or i'm sorry, i couldn't hear you. it sounds like thomas's saying to us that turkey has nato essentially over a barrel. that nato is so dependent on turkey that it cannot call out of actions that clearly conflict with the alliance is principles. absolutely, and as we know that ad one uses every christ to, to, to, to create more power for himself. like in ukraine, he tried to be the mediator just to gain much more was just to gain much more power

in by using the g issue. if you try to use it as a leverage. now he's trying to use the same card between how much and between is ramsey you price would be to make data, but it please don't forget that after the 1st fx or per month or after the 1st effect so easily add on was still quite for 2 weeks the chart to be mid day to when use that to a wasn't accepted, then you start the harsh. they could start these routes. so he always wants to gain a much more power from duck prices. now he's trying to do the same thing and they to try to block something to do much more things for him. so in fact, uh, deluxe. he did blame uh nato, to sweden, joining nato for nearly 18 months after the most of the rest of the allies had agreed that sweden and finland absolutely should join. he now has presented the succession agreement to the turkish parliament. so he seems to have climbed down on

that one, none the less. clearly turkey is a necessary nato partner, but is it a reliable one? it certainly is not, but i think it is. and i would have maybe share what's most of the earlier that need to is the, i mean, of course, it is dependent on her to, but this kind of feeling of, or on the part of the e, u. natal and european governments that they, they, they need to turn on me and both of those are doing further. and i mean, these are peace of mind. there's a whole history of a piece of policies on the part of, you know, you are open to us. but especially europe, um towards our delani, the black mentioned the refugee deal earlier. there is made to a question. and every time when the west shows week this, i'm fear from that just present that just in bold as an even further. i think that here, the balance is, i mean, it's clearly the west that's more powerful than our delong. turkey is very much dependent on the west militarily, economically, financially,

etc. i think is really time for, for example, tomorrow of schultz to publicly show, you know, sort of the strength of signal to turn to add on, add to turkey. that do you know, the west will not keep tolerating this kind of unreliable behavior on the part to find a financial number. clearly out of one prepares for his visit to germany with a vision of himself as a strong leader of a 100 year old republic. with a golden future, but in fact, at home sky rocketing inflation. a plunging currency and under orthodox economic policies are provoking doubt, especially among the young or the stumble. 6 months since the president added once the term in office, more and more people want to leave turkey, especially those that are young. i'm that you, kate said. one of them is true saying the stop an english teacher. or do any

vesta a country, a, you are valuable person in turkey, you're not a valuable person because you can be at the traitor being any time people are in this the over the repression and add one so sore cherry and system, but also over the economic crisis and the high cost of living most recently, the official inflation rate was at 61 percent fox. it is difficult to get a visa, some pay smugglers and make the way to western europe via the balcony roots. in germany, almost a 3rd of all asylum seekers now come from turkey in october alone and they were over 10000 the 2nd largest group off the syrian refugees who say, do you also wants to go to germany? is b a z to losing space and how to once promise of a tucker century?

and we'll come back to that question in just a moment. but thomas, let me ask you, 1st of all about this chapter schultz is going to receive or the one, despite quite a bit of pushback, from a number of groups in germany who say he should not be doing. so one of the reasons is that germany and z you are looking to turkey to help stem migration into the u. on the other hand, we've just heard that turkey is actually, or everyone's policies are actually triggering migration to this country. why is chancellor schultz receiving at one at this moment? well, i mean the, the, the, you need seem because of the rest of these emails, i'm not gonna isn't, isn't of booking. as you has expected it to work, it just doesn't go this way. and that was playing this game with it. and the 2nd thing is, um, would you refuse to receive that on the drum and what does it really mean it's, it's quite difficult to put pressure on ad on, on the palestinian issue on the,

the, the israel issue is very, very difficult. it is not so easy and i do not agree with the will that the west. so let's not talk about the west because the west doesn't exist, but to put pressure on the other one. that's not that easy. there's not even a mechanism to exclude someone from they to mean what do you want to do and he's playing the russell game. so i think he's in a very, very strong position and able to show that strong position when he comes to, to berlin and able to choose a shows that curtis demonstrations are showing. that terrors can move around in germany without any police control. and that's then it will come from the homeless terrorism issue. and then d, like the last time you sat at this table, it was just a few days before the election, entire turkey, where you and the others had a sense that possibly the opposition might topple him. from power, when you now look at the outlook for your country, you see a report like that and that describing the economic misery, you know,

so well. what is your sense of fear? turkey is going and how the west can maintain relations with this country. i mean, it's doubtful from here, it's just getting worse and worse. the elections were indeed attends for such things to start to change for the better. but it didn't work. i mean, just, we now have a crisis, for example, between the high courts and turkey, where a high court of appeals openly. okay, he's a criminal complaint against members of the church is constitutional court for a judgement that they've, they've a deliberate, that upset are the one so it is, he is going to consolidate his one man rule more and more, you know, his complete control of the judiciary the judge, you know, the media economy. so the only thing is, i mean, the economy is not doing well. so that's one question. if there is a serious, that kind of a crisis that might perhaps bring his end, but later, i mean, he's just so strong. and the other is, of course,

the west. i mean there are still things can, that can be done you expression for example, you know, i mean there's no reason why church still has that like social status. although of course, clearly while it's cold and i can pull school criteria, i mean that's something that to, i'm to use, you know, i mean sanctions except i think it's just things to be done on the part of the west and you and natal. but other, but i don't see that happening too because of this feeling that they're dependent on to receive them like fish and etc. so i'm afraid torque is going to go as attrition is going to go. i'll continue going really badly until i do not know, maybe an economy can pick a kind of a crisis, but as long as he's alive and my ti, i just do not see in the short term how, how this is going to change your mind. if i come back to our title, as you remember, it is between nato and him, us what his are the ones and from everything that all of you has said, it's clear that his aim is to maintain and expand his own power.

if that is the case, should germany essentially be receiving and supporting him at this critical moment when germany itself is striving to show solidarity with israel and fight anti semitism here at home the same anti semitism, he is provoking with his statements as cartoons cards is never a solution of course, he can't accept, he can be mister shows that acceptance, that i don't have the, the big company in contact. but the thing is, yes, it is west, let's say germany needs to, to invest and it's so cute. but at the same time as the needs westbound, so for too much, especially in financially means, like if you, if you, if you're just support team, right. you could just make your feel up to you just the strong guy. he will take it as for more. that's edwin's way, as you all know. but at the same time, with sometimes not sometimes actually should always be by

a conduct sheet has to be connected with the democratic crews. i'm sure you know, meaning that even butchering that has been bending turkey. if people cannot access the website without using vpn every day in other joining, this is being the rest of it. i hope you've started so 20 bones a couple of months ago. so things are getting boomers, you then risk when they're having contact, having some additional sidewalks. they should 3 my team and use the republic which they have a monkey. let me go quickly to thomas cutting ties is not an answer says do then to you would agree just of what fully agree to that well depends which times i can sometimes needs to be caught you at session process. present status, for example, should be listed sort of should be suspended from the council of europe. i think certain types needs to be broken. thank you very much to all of you for being with us. thanks to our viewers for 2. and again, do check out our youtube channel and let us know what you think. save soon

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