to since the, how the cost once a day of the international court of justice is real, was accused of genocide of trying to exterminate the palestinians in gauze of israel says that the claim is baseless tonight is real. a country at more now, on trial, i broke off in berlin. this is the day the israel has suggested god to what has been described as one of the heaviest, conventional bombing campaigns in the history of modern will fit it all. you have a genocide, i intend against the palestinians because there's nothing more processing preposterous than the most out of propaganda. it is not as committing genocide, it's from us. and here is the nation that prides itself on being the anti racist

nation. giving legal support to how much the the, how this product responsibility and their actions. we'd be just biased also coming up toxic politics, deepening division. a new government is getting to work in warsaw and supporters. and those behind that the former government are clashing over. he stands for the real poland, us to our service, the i used to fall asleep in poland and knew i would wake up in poland. now i go to bed and i feel like i'm waking up in a foreign country. let's do our viewers watching on tv as in the united states in to all of you around the world. welcome. we begin today with the case for and against genocide. the international court of justice in the hague today began hearing why south africa is accusing is real a genocide against the people in gossip on tomorrow friday. israel will begin

telling the court why that charge is deplorable and baseless by minister benjamin netanyahu has already called it a twisted world, praising these really military calling it the most moral army on the planet or south africa sees it differently, pointing to numerous public statements made by is really government and military leaders allegedly revealing the intent to wipe out not only him off, but also the palestinian people who have no choice but to stand in the way. on the 1st day of a genocide case against the state of each row in the hague, demonstrations on both sides, much to the u. n's, talk court in search of 2 different visions of justice inside the quotes and the legal team for south africa. she brought the case against israel, made the opening arguments to the publicly available evidence of the scale of the

destruction resulting from the bombardment of garza and the deliberate restriction of food volta. let's, let's do lecture century available to the population of casa, demonstrates that the government of israel are no jewish people is raised, the citizens. so government of israel and its military is intent on destroying the palestinians because as a group of lights under the, the proceedings could take use. in the meantime, south africa is asking the court to order israel to stop its no true operations in gaza. hi, civilian casualties. and the humanitarian catastrophe have led to international condemnation of these rarely offensive. the master on health ministry says

more than 23000 palestinians have been killed. the un says one and 4 people in gaza, a staffing but israel vehemently denies allegations of genocide. it insists its campaign is about targeting him us and not the palestinian people. israel says it is acting in self defense after that. how must her attacks on october 7th, 2023 is going to a terrorist organization that committed the most terrible crime against the jewish people since the holocaust instruments. and now there are those who come to defend it in the name of the holocaust is the what audacity an upside down world? israel will address the quote on friday. a decision on emergency measures is expected later this month. bordering a ceasefire is one possible option, but as the court has no way to enforce its rulings, there was hoping for

a quick end to the war may be bitterly disappointed. are my 1st gifts tonight is omar bartel fee is a professor of holocaust engine design studies at brown university. he's the author of numerous books on more of the holocaust genocide and anti semitism. he joys be denied from cambridge, massachusetts professor. both of it's good to have you back onto the program. even though i, we spoke late last year, i think it was around november, right after you had written the piece for the new york times in which you said it was crucial to a warrant of the potential for genocide before it occurs. and you added in that article that there is still time to do this now that was november. here we are in january. is there still time? well that's a, that's a very good question. and i guess the international court of justice will have to determine the only place the bank that i look, i mean my, my own set says that i've just read the 84 pages of the south african

filed and file to the i c j. um, the many indications, if not of jealous, i don't know if general side who acts. and thirdly, for crimes and crimes against humanity and it's a living operation of ethics, i think so whether this is a funny genocide or not will have to be determined, but in the situation on the ground, the direction that is, is taking it has to be reversed as quickly as possible, i want to talk about this the case i'm being put forth by south africa just a moment. i want to play a clip for you now from the is really government spokesman mark reg, of the spokesman. a comment that was given today and i want to get your reaction to it. take a list of the south african government, prides itself on hitting a country. they called at the rainbow nation, a nation which has

a n t racism is its core. and yet, here we see the south africa, unfortunately a lying and is aligning itself with the from us terrorist organization, which is an openly and about lead racist organization. it's a travesty of history. what do you say to that professor, you know, allying itself with a mouse? well, i mean, let's try certainly, nonsense. i mean, i don't know where the, i guess reads the finally by south africa write this number line itself with some us is to talks about extremely valid actions by the idea of the case of police standing population of guys i don't know if rank of as many other spokes put people, generals, put officials in israel, think stuff from us and the population of guys are the same thing

then you could save. but that means that statements that were made, they gave us by the various spokespeople and that sort of what actually directed to the entire population, which is very much the case that is, that is a kind of confusion between come us, which is a terrorist organization. and that would be nice thing if it could be removed from gaza between the 2300000 people who lives a offer for my children. how significant is it to that south africa? has brought israel to the world court by invoking the 1948 genocide convention. i mean, is this a historic moment? it is a so small minute on, on various levels of festival. because the joe size convention from 1948, which came into force in 1951, the year of it, israel joined it as well. the,

the roots of the really the heart of course, in other cases of mass killing in world war 2. and this was what was the impetus for the newly found to the un to resolve, to, to have such a convention. so that is one side of it is that is this for a state like israel, which was found to be many ways on the on the ashes of the heart, of course, to be accused of genocide is a very tragic moment. the 2nd is the south africa was a country that as we know until 1994. so for the regime of if a brutal regime of a part, i then became a pariah states. and because of the eventually, because of international pressure. um, so as soon as you ultimately clubs and the additional island is the only states that's worth to where the south african apartheid regime,

particularly in military cooperation, was the state of israel. so there was a fair amount of blood between those 2 states. whereas in fact, as i said, they should have been much closer together the they're both countries founded on historical strategies and vision finally coming path. rather than going to be able to work. you know, you, you mentioned a pariah in the international community. you know, as well as i do that a ruling by the board court may take years to come and by then the war between is really and last will probably be over there. there could even be peace in the middle east, and we know that this court has no enforcement authority. so is the court a public opinion here? public pressure is that most relevant with what we're seeing happening is this, the 3 things that are relevant as i say. one is that you will have an international body of the 15 just this is plus one from south africa and one from israel happens

to be a very distinguish joyce who will, did you think i disagree with deliberating, and that's important on its own. the 2nd is a yes that, that's the will be, um, trash is simply because of the facts. the of the i c j would be talking about it. the 3rd is the south africa. i'm aware of that. so the delivery ratios could take a year or longer could be several years, is asking for provisional measures. and those provisional measures can be decided on by the i c, j in the next couple of weeks. and those with have judgements needing much more even if they are not implemented, which one expects they would not be would have a much rate to immediate effect of pressure and both in israel and the police of the united states here said,

i think you said this when we talked last year that it's important to show that a country is sliding towards genocide when it is sliding towards genocide. that means that the presence of intent has to be there. how does one prove intent when we're talking about is real allegedly committing to genocide against the palestinian people? so you know, even when i publish the new york times in early november, i, science has many cases of is ready, political and military leaders. people with executive powers making general side to statements or statements that could have 2 implications. one answer the inside the pool and the inside soldiers and when they have hundreds of thousands of reserves. so just to just is really sending things in uniform. hearing the,

the commanders and the political leaders making such statement as if the schools has an impact on the conduct. and secondly, that, that is an element improving genocide which usually is very hard to prove. now, since then, there's be many more such statements made. and in the filing by the, by south africa, there's a very long laundry list of statements from top to bottom around the country. even though the last few days, which of course some people in israel say is, is, is crazy because this is not the moment to keep making for statements. the question would be whether the statements made being made in the heat of the moment. they are just sort of rhetoric, but they don't actually have to do with actions on the ground that the, the so there's no actually intend to destroy the police sending people a search or latrice. it's positing, garza, but by this i mean,

how does it prove that the professor a how do you prove that there is a true intent? even if you have people in the cabinet saying horrible things? how do you make that connection that what they say? what is translating into conduct on the ground in gaza and an entire sample and an estimate group is being extinguished, correct? so this is, this is the, you have to make the link. and the link can be made or might be made by looking at what the actions of trulia and the ashes be. the 85 percent of the population of garza has been displaced and are now mostly in the south west. in tip of the gaza strip. where they uh, also under conditions of lack of food, lack of water, lack of sanitation, lack of medical assistance to the place from which they were displaced, has been largely destroyed. and it is no clear plan of ever coming back there and

no political horizon because likes or any government refuses to speak of the next stage. but is it true that i mean you're, you're describing a humanitarian catastrophe? i mean, human suffering between the images is true, but can we say that there will not be a plan for recycling draws or for these people to go home? i mean, we know that there are mechanisms in place already to finance reconstruction of gas and no one is talking about the, the annihilation of gauze in its people. well, many people are talking about in, in, in israel states. and this will be made by 2 senior ministers and these are in the cabinet precisely about encouraging the public fitness to leave. encouraging, obviously, as it is a collide to, to pushing them up. uh, i think that um, or in

a sense we will know whether this is an alteration of as a closing with genocide or in time to or cause requests, depending on what happens next. if indeed the plan is implemented before the scene is to go back to where they were to, to rebuild the live. then potentially we could say ok, this was very close, but it didn't quite come to the 23000 people were killed. thousands and thousands of voted and mutilated, but maybe it didn't get to be jealous of the classic because people came back. yeah . but i'm not sure that this will happen. final question, before we run out of time, you know, south africa, as you said, it says it has a history of solidarity with the palestinians that they both have stories of apartheid oppression to tell. other groups in the world are also targets of all kinds of horrible treatment. i'm thinking about the week years in china. they were

hinge of me and more. it seems though, that some get more attention than others. that solidarity likes to pick and choose to. does it as well. so this is also, this is true. i mean the, we don't live in uh, in the fair and just well, but i would say that the only other case in which one state filed with the i c j. 4 case of jealous i was to get an idea about the general side of the brand. got a memo in 9th, in, in 2019. and this did go was the liberated by the i c j. and is in fact, one of the only a precedent for what we're seeing now. secondly, i would say that this really isn't a particularly the sort of delicate moment. israel has claimed always to be the

only democracy of the middle east that have had a very moral or the most more army in the world. it has built itself on the legacy of the pool. so for a country like israel to be even charged with this is not just that it's unfair to the people of going after israel. it also has to do with a sort of lack of disability and understanding of its own historical political position in the well by. it's really this and that i find tragic internally domestically not only into naturally, but that israel would bring itself to this point. professor brought home unfortunately we're out of time. we appreciate you taking the time to talk with us great conversation. i'm sure that will be reasons to talk again in the future. thank you. thank you very much for having the polish politics are not pretty at the moment,

but was president andre due to it and has announced that he will pardon to populist former lawmakers who were arrested 2 days ago on corruption charges at the president's residence mario's kaminsky and mind j one check were members of the opposition law and justice. pardon? well, they're no longer in political power, but they are support among voters. apparently isn't weaker protests on the streets of also thousands of people on the cool of polish president andre, do to, to gather outside the parliament and denounce the new governments over the whole of state media and also to condemn the recent arrest of 2 politicians from the opposition to injustice party. marius kaminsky, unmatched a volcanic avenue. because of since i came here because i don't agree with what's happening in our country right now. i'm concerned about lawlessness and we're not

used to it after so many years since the fall of communism was pulling a suite in poland and i knew i would wake up in poland. and now i'm not so sure. now i'm waking up in a kind of foreign country. we will be on top, we will be free. we will do nights and we will show that poland should stay. poland to some of you. yes, the background was we were standing next to the wives due to said that the rest of the 2 men was a breach of the constitution. broke without thought. is that to the volumes you're not following the request of the wives of the arrested ex ministers. i have decided to initiate the pause and proceeding in for one. i want this proceeding to be done according to absolutely more constitutional and legal standards. kaminsky was the interior minister of the former government. in fact, check his deputy. the state was sentenced to 2 years in prison in december 2023 for

abusing that power when they were ahead of the central anti corruption bureau. these it was boseman were arrested at the presidential palace on tuesday. they denied the charges. are kaminsky and the bash it could base been sentenced to 3 years in prison on similar charges back in 2015 but were pardoned by due to a few months late to. 8 the rest this week sparked and among supporters of the law and justice party adding to mounting tension in the country. as the prime minister donald took twice to unpack the last 8 years of leadership by the law and justice party. by reforming political institutions and restructuring the legal system in his aim to lead poland

into a more progressive pro european era. but dw corresponded monica shirad. scott is following the story for us and with president due to about to pardon, to arrested opposition. politicians. he is the president, is he on a collision course with the new powers that be in warsaw? the next step in this book, both of them will be released from day after department of the president. and which might say to take some time, but it was, it was come from a be in the a couple of days or weeks was they were lo makers before. and they already announced that they will try to they will try to enter the parliament building again. and one of them uh, the former interior menus that are coming to you said that he was do it until he he was do it and to attend the complimentary sessions at

unless you stop by force. so even if they are not, no lawmaker anymore, because the they are convicted so according to the law, they are no, it'll make her any more, but they don't accept the situation in monica. how that, how do you, how do you read this situation? i mean, the president, in opposition with it, with the new government, you've got people protesting on the streets. is poland. is it heading into a severe political crisis side of the police? the police go seen and the police society is clearly divided into 2 major groups. one of them recognizes some verdicts on of some cards or some judges, and the other girl is the because now using the other judges and the other, the verdicts of other courts. it's on an unprecedented situation.

um, it's the 1st such to be constitutional prizes in poland and police, a good price is important since poland to regain to the independence in 1989. so we are now living in the kind of double parlor words of the and, and in the kind of legal do at least finally, the world's largest elvis presley festival is underway. down under hip shaking and we're wearing elvis fans cabinet sidney central station to show their burning love for the king. and after a little song and dance they boarded the eldest express valley for a small town in the outback. 25000 elders, enthusiasts are expected to put on their blue suede shoes and makes the pilgrimage to the 5 date extravaganza. this year's theme is the 1957. tell me you can hear the music house from

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