ation and everything in between. this is a video and audio production, 5 d, w. i hope video will tune in the hundreds of thousands of people have taken to the streets in germany. it's the largest social movement in the country in decades in cities, towns large and small protesters have been demonstrating against the far right to advocate for an open society and to protect their democracy. and the supporters of germany's biggest far right party seem on dante with more people than ever joining the organization. how dangerous is the a, f d? what is causing such change or within men's mainstream society? and how resilience is germany's democracy. on to the point we ask defiance and germany, ken mass protest, stop the far right. the

welcome to this week's to the point, i'm probably going to yes, and i'm joined by today's guess. random born is a member of the of baptists month foundation. and it's europe's future program to focuses on us german and transatlantic relations. need a has a is dw as chief political correspondent, based here in berlin. and katya jolla is a researcher at the king's college in london and author of the best selling book beyond the wall, about the former german democratic republic. joining us from lunch 12, you're welcome, and thanks for being here. yeah, it's been a long time since germany has made such a international headlines with mass protests. what sentiment is uniting all these people as well. there is a sentiment that there is something at stake here and that is the foundation of democracy. so, and we've seen this building up for the last couple of years. you know,

it's additionally in 70 protests was sort of left wing. and then with migration crisis in 2015, they became more of a conservative right wing and event as well. and now we're seeing the rise of the far right. a is the policy that's appealing to voters and for various reasons, i'm sure we will get into and the policy itself has radicalized. so it started off as a different policy than it is now with an anti immigration sentiment with a sentiment. and that fundamentally things need to change here in germany. and that is something that is talking many people. and so that taking to the streets and then taking to the streets and numbers that we really haven't seen since the process movements in the g d. all in the 1980s that eventually led to the full of the bilingual. now we have to talk about who is actually going to these protests. gotcha. germans don't really have a tradition of going on demonstrations, at least not in smaller cities and towns like people in other countries. how

diverse is the crowd that is going to these protests to i think it's been really quite amazing to say that there is such a broad spectrum. you call old people young people, the people bring their children, and you call people the width. and like gratian background themselves, well worried about what might happen to them. but also obviously lots and lots of, of germans who lived in this country for generations who also don't want to live in a society as envisioned by, by some members of the 58 according to the, to the recent revelation. so it's really been quite a broad mix of people out there. i think that's part of the warrior, as well as you know, how long can this be sustained when a politically and age wise? in other words, this is such a, such a diverse group. now they say there is nothing new under the sun brandon, is there any just catching up on other countries that have seen similar movements? well, when you look at germany, of course, we see this mass of protests moving going on at the moment. we but we're also

seeing some protest pop up in austria in, in relation to these revelations that we'll talk about in a little bit. but germany is not an isolated case. of course, we've seen the rise of before, right across europe. in fact is 15 and 27 u member states, we see 20 percent support for, for a parties in this country. so i think the major difference we see the if the in relation to other far right parties in europe is these new revelations. again, we'll talk about it in a moment, but the, the appear to have been a bridge to for, for some parties. if you look at me in the pins. national riley, for example, a party that is gaining ground in france ahead of the major elections that we have this year. it's has distance itself from the 50 and i think that's a that's, that's a major sign. definitely, as we will talk, indeed about those revelation for the have a closer look at the immediate cause of these protests that determines by surprise . in germany, early 2024, hundreds of thousands of protesters take to the streets of tunbridge,

along with other german cities. big and small people, they just are demonstrating against right when you stream is in, in the a of the, their concerns that the right wing is undermining democracy. united by the fear that nonsense could rise to power. once again. let's say we have to defend democracy. that takes a lot of people online does. what does it come out already? is very, very hateful. mention find in november 2023. the media outlets correct. he's conducted investigation under cover. reporters infiltrated a secret meeting that took place at this hotel near potsdam. the attendees were neo nazis, a of the politicians, super right wing, members of this team. and entrepreneurs. the topic to discuss a master plan presented by the austrian extreme is martin. so the leader of the far right idea, terry and movement, his plan called re migration would see the millions of people expelled from germany,

including asylum seekers, foreigners on a valid residency permit, and even german citizens with a non german background. now people across germany are demonstrating in mass to protect their democracy, but how strong is mainstream society against the far? right? that's a question we are trying to answer these days catch up. there's always been movements and protests against the far right here in germany, but it's always been more of a nice if you will. do you see that changing as well? i'll say the key difference is that, um it's, it's, those reasons are relations the of really showing people who is actually in the f d. what, what some of the more extreme wings are actually thinking in terms of what they're going to do when they come into, into power and nothing previously people have kind of, almost got use the f d as, as part of the political spectrum is, is kind of a policy does become normalized and lots of ways and people, you know,

regret of that is the case. but there wasn't like a single fact or, or something, not spot kind of outrages as one's immediate thing that brings everyone onto the streets at the same time. and i think these are relations of done just dots and dots dots. i think what's made the difference, what spot these, these demonstrations that we're seeing at the moment. some people saying that germans in a way woke up brandon, they are now taking through a speech, defend their democracy, but also from an international perspective is their actual reason to believe that the german democracy is endangered by groups and by revelations like this. well, i think something to consider is, you know, again taking the, the international lens of this issue, what we see is on the global stage, democracy is actually in decline with the bertelsmann transformation index. it pulls a $137.00 countries. and over the past 2 years, we've actually seen a decline of democracies on the international stage. more countries became democracies over the last 2 years, became autocracies or the last 2 years in democracies. so, you know,

if you look at the case of the f d, for example, there is a major threat of this party ahead of major elections with the look to europe in elections this summer. the several state elections that we have later in the year. there is a major threat of an anti democratic party entering institutions that could, could we can it. and however, this is really nothing that you and you know, there had been many warnings about extremists and movements in germany that were also a threat to the germans safety. why do you think it took this particular scandal to take people to the streets? or i think because people are realizing that there is a real challenge that they've days now so big that they will enter. and you know, there's a famous saying that goes democrats have to win every election every 4 years every 5 years, depending on which country you're in. autocrats have to win ones. they don't necessarily need the majority of voters, but they need enough votes to get into those institutions and then they can change

the system itself. they can ensure that this is something where they will stay impala and we've seen that in hungry. we've seen that in poland. poland is now trying to roll all these developments back with a new government in place, but they came very close to abolishing rule of law. all these principles and the, the, and the, the, the radicalized safety that we're seeing now, if they indeed enter these democratic institutions. then they could change these a, these principles that we've agreed on. and i think what makes germany so special of course, is that we've seen it before. we've seen that happen in this country and we've got holocaust survivors who now these days, you know, really old people who are saying this is exactly how it started at the time. how do you explain then katya that in the country that says it learned from history, we're seeing high ranking politicians and even important businesses,

even listening to these types of plans, re migration expelling thousands or millions of people out of the country to well, i think it was mark twain who said that history doesn't repeat, but it often runs, i think that that is the case here. so i don't think we're seeing an exact repeat of the photos, the volume or republican the voice was the nazi's. but some of the factors and the pin the time we see again, and that is things like high inflation or splintering also political spectrum, a disaffection with mainstream politics, which we'll see, you knows, kind of divisive and not able to solve the problems of the day of the feeling that for the patients of detached from the, from the real problems with the people, all of these things i thing combined into a similar sort of sense the, whatever the state is quote isn't working and people are looking to quite sort of extreme um, solutions for, for the nothing and not respect the, the, is a similar situation. i think with things have changed as a, there's

a when it's such a many has of its own costs. and i think this is what's sparking these mass demonstrations. and also the fact that we have learned from the past and the sense that we have a different constitution now than we had in the bottom of a public one, which was better able to, to defend itself with various mechanisms to are currently being discussed in the extreme form of a policy, ben is on the table and it's being discussed um, but also just things like that. you know, the fact that there's a quote that overlooks this entire system and looks up whether it was for example, or constitutional, whether what the government that is, once it's impala is doing, is constitutional law. so it would have loans, i would say in the sense that we have put these buck stops in place that help us defend democracy that we've called now against a kind of fall right trends. and you know, for a long time, people thought that the most important political party in the far right in germany would not really come into power. we will have a closer look at the a f

d party and the a of the movement. because even before these protests, germany is the biggest far right party had been showing record performances in poles and in voter intention. and in the last few weeks, it support has barely declined despite social unrest. the intro to is the state and parliamentary leader of the, of the including yeah. and he wants to cream ethically peer germany. literally. he wants to expel cultural foreigners by force if necessary. the f d is currently pulling at more than 30 percent, making it the strongest party entering. you could even become the state premier in the fall election. elections will also be held in saxony and front and but the sd is leading there as well. currently one and 5 people in germany see they would vote for this party. is it in spite of or because of nationalist idea like so. cuz the, according to the so called mid to study 8 percent of german sold extreme right wing

views. nearly a 3rd of people surveyed would either prefer or, or not opposed to an authoritarian government. and this is helping the amc by contrast, the popularity of the current governing parties has reached a historic low p. s. p. the green and the f. t p are constantly pickering, the self proclaimed progressive coalition passes resolutions on ecological restructuring, the budget, and social policy that require multiple corrections. and for many germans, chancellor schultz has just been too quiet by the house in the centers. parties went over voters again that's a big question. brandon, we know that this is happening in other countries as well. how difficult is it to fight a moving like the f d when it has a message that clearly resonates with folders? i mean this, if it's a very difficult question, i think when you look at this through an international lens, the in germany, the united states, there, we tend to forget that the we're, we're undergoing

a major societal change. generational change, we have a green transition that's taking place. we have a digital transformation, new technologies that provide opportunities, but also challenge economies. they, they challenge or social fabric. and when you take germany into consideration, you also have recession in this country. you have a word just one border state, a way that is challenge. germany's postwar of for, and in security studies quote, you have mass migration, the list goes on. when you take all of those, when you take those ingredients and you put them together, you put them into a pot and stir it. that is a, that's a dangerous concoction that could spill over. so, you know, the 50 is not as much a, a virus as it is a symptom of, of, of anxiety and dissatisfaction among the german populace. it really comes down to the, to the german government and i was, was just described. if you look at pulling,

there is dissatisfaction in that regard. so that, that is, there's really fertile ground that the can use to, to really take advantage to. and yet it seems like the f, the has this resistible message for some voters or this view of how germany should look like of who should be here. you know, what are they doing right, to attract so many people in germany that again, was supposed to have learned to as well that presenting simpler solutions to very complex questions. and we are dealing with the situation where there are a, there's a multitude of crises that are overlapping, that and accelerating essentially each of the we've got the inflation we've got. well, brendan just said in a rush is war against ukraine has challenged adams of foreign policies, but also very immediately the government needed to find new sources of energy supply and how to run around the world. literally fly around the world to find new partners to get energy from because we was so heavily dependent on russia. so

all of this is extremely complex. the government administers the travelling around the world also trying to attract people and to come to work in germany. and this is something where there is a lot of fear is happening at the new, incredibly high space as a pace. and this is something where people do feel overwhelmed. so of course it's attractive when somebody says, you know, i'll tell ya, we'll just kick them all out. and uh, you know, then we'll be left alone again. all the problems can stay outside of our borders and that is of course not feasible, but you do have to say so, you know, the government does consist of 3 very different political parties that doesn't make it easier. there's constant bickering, then not doing a very good job at presenting is sort of a steady face. they don't. so unity. and this is also something where that opening up this room for the opposition to criticize them and rightfully sometimes. and

when it comes to decision making and, but also to a radical extreme is to just say, okay, they can't do that job for police. and we have to take a look at one of the most important discourse is when it comes to the a, f d, which is that it's a protest vote catch ya. they say that the success of the idea is also the failure of the established political parties. of what do you make of that, that people are willing to give their vote to the, the, despite all of what we're seeing, just because they want to protest the current government to well, i think that that is a valid point and a valid analysis because i think for a long time this been a degree of complacency in the mainstream policies where they just assumed that that was never going to happen. again. people would always vote for, for the kind of sense of ground, no matter how dissatisfied they may be with individual policies. and i think that's now going because of the success of the a if d and now the,

the alarm bells are ringing. but i think, you know, the fact that, for instance, less of the few and few avoid is actually turned off at elections for years. so i thought, think of the toner has gone down. that was just ignore the nothing the if these, for example, able to get some of these non photos back to vote for them. and that's now created . i think a bit of a sense that it can just be the case that you're arguing against the a if the, you know a degree with this. and now this is that the, if the is and isn't the virus but the symptom of them that respect. what us to us, you know, what the diseases in the 1st place, and no one can, can get to it. and con, happen without the mainstream part is offering some tangible solutions to problems that people can relate to and, and will support this, not just about communication as is often claimed, but people say, oh, if they just communicate to the ideas and the solution spencer is also about what they're actually doing that doesn't speak to people at the moment in a democracy you calling to say, well, but we're right. you know, we just need to convince you that we are. you also have to listen to,

to these concerns by people because they are genuine concerns. and it seems like the safety is addressing them better. now if we take a look, let's just briefly take a look at the stance of us, the a, if the on these revelations and on these protests, they say that the secret meeting was not a party event. nina, they said that the revelations are from a partly government funded organization that they and that they quints eventually came exactly at the time when the german government was seeing other mass protest or farmers protests. rather that were, that were also very critical for the government. the if the claims, if this is an orchestrated deformation to and pain including the media of course, including us maybe and supported by the media and their voters seem to believe it. yeah. but you could also see that the, if the leadership was shocked, and all these vital one of the, to what the tab woman of the a c. and she had to let go. one of her closest member of stuff because he

attended it. now we're seeing more revelations that there was somebody else who also has very clear links to the party itself and was paid with potty funds if in the context of this secret meeting. so they are trying very wants to portray this as something when they say, okay, people can go wherever they want in their free time. but there are close links that are being looked at now. but i mean, there is a tendency, it doesn't matter how many times people said donald trump has done something where he has to appear in court. his vote to base then said, well yeah, there's just an attempt to get rid of him. you know? yeah, everybody makes mistakes and we've seen that in the us recently, right, friends and i mean you are the expert that, but this is not something that will essentially tell people, okay, i'll bet. so not vote for him again. and there is an element of glass as well with the a if the voters do you see that powerless over on into the united states,

for example, that no matter what happens, no matter what trump says, no matter what these leaders do, they will continue to even gain support? well there, there is a particular reason you can buy his milk shot on cups in shirts and flags that trump rally. i mean, that tells you a lot. so, i mean, and united states we of course, have this federal election later in the year. donald trump's name has been renewed from 2 ballots to states, have removed his name from the ballot which, which draws comparisons to caused the band. the if the and germany to certain extent. of course, $1.00 to $1.00 comparisons get, get bessie. but they did, the root of this debate is essentially the individuals who have to have put that action into place. they believe that they are securing democracy. they are using the, the legal instruments available through the constitution to secure democracy. on the other side, if you look to conservatives, they believe this, it, it couldn't get anymore on democratic, by removing and removing a candidate from a ballot. and taking the voice away from the american people. so it's, it's, it's

a, it's a bit tricky when you take another step back and you look at the, the way that americans feel about this. it's, they're very divided. and as you would anticipate through divider to one political lines. so there is also discussion of course of the banning the half the in germany as we just mentioned. and you know, what do you think is the status of that discussion? i've heard that it's not that realistic in the 1st place is extremely tricky. and you know, for a reason, we don't want to make it easy for essentially quotes to band political parties. we combine any policy that, you know, we, we do have to have profit evidence in place that several things have to apply. first, the policy does have to have the intention and in writing, i mean you have to be able to completely link it to the policy that really, if they can't did come to power, then they would challenge the very foundations of our system. and then also we do

have to prove that they do have enough of a vote to base. that is realistic that this could happen. so, you know, there have been attempts to bind no political policy in germany before a far right policy and not fail because they said the policy is too insignificant to insignificance with a fee. you can argue about the significance of course, but how do you prove that they would really of bolus, essentially the foundations of a democratic system. and there is the big concern by experts who say we have a legal case in place that could take use for the quotes to decide. so it's not an immediate solution anyway. and what types of bass goes wrong then the if the seems to be hospice them, we're a democratic policy definitely. and that leaves us to with the question, where do we go from here then? gotcha. what do you think of the current political parties, the democratic parties should do in order to fight this off to?

well, i think one thing that i can do, and that is also doable in the foreseeable future, is just to increase the presence on the ground. and make themselves more reliable, more accessible in that regard. i think this is one thing that the f d does extremely well, and the thought helps that, particularly in the east actually with is a feeling of detachment with berlin specifically. and you know, people will tell you that i'm not fighting for safety and hooker the lead and so ring go for at least by to the, the national leader. but i'm fighting for much yes. who's you know, by a local man who sits with me at the fire brigades meeting or whatever. and then talks to me about the issues that matter to me locally in the something the sd of taking very seriously. they all the, they do listen to the, to of this content and are able to channel it in that way. and i don't think the sort of mainstream parties are quite caught on to that yet. i think that is now also in understanding that social media metals, particularly with,

with young people. again, this is something that the f d is much, much more a sort of skilled in. and they do use social media much more effectively than the traditional policies. and that is because i think the guns assigned to you and is now used more by um, by the, by the centralist parties. but those kinds of ideas. how do you get to people? because that helps them understand what the issues on the bus today. so i think it's definitely a tricky situation, a difficult one for german politics these days. we and that's all we have time for today. but of course that discussion continues also in our youtube channel. remember, you can also watch these shows on the daily news on youtube. i'm call you, i guess. thank you so much dollar guess and to you for watching. i'll see you next time. take care of the by the,

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