a, just a click away. the during the destination right. sign this document trees the subscriber name, treat the donald trump sounds like an extortionist of allies. want the protection of the usa. they have to pay it is a month warning by the republican presidential candidates had a taste of what's to come. should he return to the precedence russian would be able to do whatever it wants with the delinquents. nato members, the possibility that paul's at horrifies nato partners. many you countries, the trump statements as a wake up come to become militarily self sufficient. brain is also planning to challenge restaurants with new military leadership at a new strategy. until the point we ask, coaching and trump, or new access again, state of enterprise,

the welcome to this week to the point time. how do you know? yes, it's good to have you with us. and these are today's guest, rachel, the 1000 points is a senior fellow at the german marshall funding book. it's got monday is a reporter for germany's stand magazine, for which he recently reported from ukraine. and nicole long it is a political consultant and security expert and a senior fellow at the munich security conference is joining us from the city of munich. tabio, thank you for joining us today. and rachel, i'd like to start with you because here we are talking about donald trump's remarks even before he's officially the republican candidate. now that it let alone a president or um yeah, president of the united states. why is that again or at trump is magic if there's one thing he knows how to do, it's to get everyone's attention even when he says things that actually aren't

surprising. we know that this is trump's position on nato. we know he's not a fan of nato, he spent his 1st presidency complaining about the, the members who didn't pay up. and in his way of saying, and yet he is able to shock americans on the world by saying, you know what, he thinks in a, in a particularly outragious way in the world. certainly reacting in eco, i'd like to get to you and munich, a, the munich security conference gathers international leaders in germany to talk about global security issues. as donald trump, one of them is one of the lead us or one of the issues i think that will be debated. um, i would say one of the issues up already for the moment be certainly i think this is a long campaign coming into united states. we should ask ourselves the question, do we really want to deal with what donald trump says every day? at the same time, it is true that especially at this munich security conference,

the question, how do you are pm's will continue to support your claim? and what was your opinions to a folder on security to deter russia? the questions will be on the table and they will be in terms of we've discussed. you already mentioned a nickel and moments i'd like to ask you of donald trump's efforts to get to the white house this time around are different because of the context of the word and ukraine. how do you think? does that change the stakes of the us election? i think that's it basically means for the europeans. that's uh, we should be, we should hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. so i would say that the until the end of last year, everybody was still hoping that maybe the republicans will choose another candidates for the presidential elections. and the well, the, the help for financial help for ukraine will somehow pass over the last weeks. we

understood that's neither the 1st thing. no. the 2nd happens. so we should prepare for the worst, which means no more financial or military aid from the u. s. for ukraine and a possible president. trump possible president trump, that we don't know what he's going to do with nato. trump recently drew attention to himself with these statements in which he threatened to hand over delinquents natal members to put in if they failed to meet their budget. it's the largest needle maneuver of all time operation. steadfast defender a name that says it all a 4 month long military exercise to demonstrate the strength of the military alliance. meanwhile, in the usa presidential candidate, donald trump reiterate this low opinion of nato and valves to cut off protection for delinquent allies who don't pay their dues in full no, i would not protect you. in fact,

i would encourage them to do whatever the hell they want. you gotta pay, you gotta pay your bill trumps publications or anything new. even when he was president, he repeatedly criticized the alliance. but this time, his comments are horrifying. partners in the alliance, nato chief against oldenburg claimed trumps words undermine our security. in europe is worried. this, what's nato's promise of protection applies without restriction on hold for 11 for all. i see it, i don't see when it comes to the security of the western world, if nothing can replace american power countries, but for obvious reasons, we in europe need to wake up in security in europe even possible without the usa. that's of course, the question of some european leaders as we saw, are extremely concerned. will that is that, is that justified? do you think they should be fearing on? empowered, russia?

of course, if it's justified, because without the help of the us, if you look at the conflict on the war in ukraine at they are totally different perspective. it's obvious that even if the union scales up, it's a help for ukraine. if can't replace the military aid from the u. s, that chunk is just too big. so the perspective of this war is totally different without the funding from the us. what about the perspective for the european security as a whole, as well? i think further you can say it security as a whole. uh, that's the same thing. if a trump, basically a trump is not president at the moment, but basically him saying things like this already on their minds at this point, the european security because from the perspective of a fresher, it means, uh,

that's the article 5 of the nato may be, is not bit serious effect is not that see us as a team or default, meaning that if one country hasn't regression, all the other countries will defend it. mitchell is a bit as well. let's just say donald trump is not president yet. we've been here before, haven't we? a feeling what could happen, political leaders insecure about what he's saying, but don't from was already president ones. and i would say most of those scenarios and that didn't really happen. do you think it changes this time around with respect scenario? i think it changes, 1st of all, as your other question, i mean there's already an active or, you know, in on the are getting caught and that's so that, that changes the stakes of everything. the 1st time trump was elected, most european countries were playing the waiting game. thought it's just going to be one term. we can wait it out. and america will, you know, re gain its senses. well,

america looks like it's possibly going to elect donald trump again. meaning, we should have some doubts about the reliability of this us protection guarantee. and 2nd of all, now, europeans on like in 2016 understand war in europe is a real possibility. most europeans, at least as you know, sort of central western europeans didn't believe that war was really guessing that could happen in europe. so the stakes are much higher. and i think the concern is rightfully is rightfully more of this time. do you also think that the values that nato stands for are not necessarily represented by the us anymore, or by donald trump? they're not represented. i mean, uh, trump is still not the majority of americans. uh, according to a pull we did last year, 68 percent of americans still support a strong rule of europe of the united states and european security and most europeans. but most americans support nato still. but those numbers are sinking among republicans. and, you know, donald trump is,

is absolutely an exception. he does not believe that, you know, the us interests are well served by nato. and he didn't in his 1st term either because we've heard some trump's critics, including his own former national security adviser of saying that trump, ultimately, once the us out of nato are these budgetary reasons. just unexcused. we think if the countries paid more, the risk wouldn't be there. as we know from his last term that donald trump things about everything in transactional terms and re i'm not very good in depth. but maybe we have to become transactional, at least to these of the trump, if you show up the president again, that too. but once he says it's directly against us interest, and i think that should also be an issue in the us. it is a vital interest of the us to have made to, to have partners to have a basis and to work to get are in the nature of framework. and this is

a missing link. and it seems to be that in the united states, it's difficult to find the democratic legitimacy for a for, and then security policy in the interest of the united states. but that's not exclusive to the us receive similar development in france. but to be honest, we also see it in germany that it's difficult to find majorities for the right for an insecure with the policy important tries to play on this. and i think the messaging around trump's a campaign statement is very important. and unfortunately, it does not sound one of the european side very much as a deterrent to put in. it almost sounds like an invitation, an invitation that, of course, would be extremely dangerous with russia says it's only defending itself that it doesn't have any intention to invade, for example, in a to country. so you have been in ukraine, you've seen what i originally question means and what is your take on the

intentions there as well. i'm sure that the putting wants to restore the territory of the soviet union and ukraine is maybe the most important part in this without ukraine. his whole imperial project is not valid. and, and at this point, i would say that the biggest danger actually exists for our country is like a georgia armina mold tool, the, which were a part of the soviet union. and if he succeeds in ukraine, those countries are the biggest danger. i don't think that's a like the 1st step would be nato countries, because attacking the nato still is a very big risk for russia. and so, yeah, that's my take on this. however, when we take a look at the us perspective on this,

rachel, i knew it was just telling us that this is not in the interest of the united states to, for example, pulls out of nato. but it seems like in the us, at least republicans or followers. i've done that from specifically, don't seem to think that would be a big deal if the us pull that up later as the country that much more vulnerable. if that happens, i mean, and there's a sort of narrow view of security and a broader view of security. if you take the narrow view of searching, you that really have to do a sort of territorial attacks against the united states or something like that. this is probably the way you know, trumping a lot of his voters would think about security there of course more focused on the southern border and where there are, you know, concerns or things like terrorism. and so to make the case that sort of the war and ukraine or poland has a lot to do with the us security. so it's a more difficult case to me. i would say the majority of the sort of political leaders in the united states still have this view of allied security and understand

the international alliances make us stronger. but that's a case that's slightly more difficult to make in the public than it used to be, especially among republican voters. but we're not quite there. i mean, trump is dropped is extreme um in his views. but, but the parts that shared across, across the, basically the entire robotic and party and also part of the democratic party is, is this part about nato members not paying up? which is to say, this kind of resentment that the us is paying too much or investing too much in europe and security. and that's actually been a long standing critique, especially from the republicans, but also from a democratic presidents. the question is, of course, what can be done now because of course, the european union has been considering going to board and creating an independent military for a long time. it is also talking about spending more militarily,

is all that viable at the current moment, especially to create, let's say, a unified european military the one in europe. i think one starts to wonder how many wake up cold calls do. we actually need? there was a movement on this round in 2014, that was the russian for the invasion into your created in 2022. and now there is this, the projection of a new trump presidency. something has been done. and for example, that germany is serious me working towards permanent poster of investment ready brigade and looked for it. and you know, i think it's a significant step forward. but i think it's also fair to say that even if drunk is expressing things in a totally unacceptable way. there is a hard truth at the bottom of it and to hop truth is that we have not done what we committed ourselves to in nato. and that we always are looking for others to solve our security problems for us. and to hold argumentation will be much easier

regardless of who, who will be president of the united states. if the europeans step up in their own security matters. and that means really digging deep to help you train more and to find in your initiative on a european level to support your crane, especially in this critic refers also to provide hope to a ukrainians. and at the same time, making europe more secure. the eastern flank of nato is at the same time the eastern border of to european union. and i think there's a lot in your opinions could do, instead of just expressing concerns or writing up at all, let us to one another from what you say, an equal it all starts in ukraine at this moment. if you're p and nato countries fear they might have to defend themselves alone in the future. that outlook is even more dire for you crate in the us right wing republicans pushed by trump. we simply blocked and h packaged that included military assistance for ukraine. the consequences are felt on the battlefield and now even triggered a change of leadership bible out immersed lensky to meet the new dye commander in

chief alexander ski. once the head of the ground forces. he's now replacing former commander in chief of police. neat, who was beloved by both the people in the army known for his toughness. their sky trained at the military academy in moscow will not shoot since our goals remained unchanged to me and holding our positions. 3 were holding our territory with exhausting the enemy by inflicting maximum casualties. listen, you were conducting an act of defense within your, by seizing the initiative. thinking sports have a pretty cool. we already do it on a daily basis. should be in that and say that because of the new army chief brings his own team with him and is relying on a new strategy, which includes expanding the use of electronic warfare and more automated weapon systems. drones will compensate for immunization shortages. the additionally troops will be supplied with weapons from abroad

more quickly. the new strategy also allows for a more rapid rotation of soldiers. but the new mobilization laws that would make this possible is still stuck in parliament. do these changes present more risks or opportunities for you create lots? it seems like with trump's remarks, with the charge royal gains of russia and ukraine in recent weeks. and of course, with those changes and keeps top positions, things are really not looking good for a clean at the moment. how bad as well. the sphere was a bad. it was bad already an autumn or the beginning of winter. when was clear that the counter offensive basically failed. so people understood that's the perspective is totally unclear of the perspective of this war before people thought, okay, we have to endure a little more and then the war will. and now this is totally on year. and

since then over the last weeks, it gets clear the may well basically from the u. s. a nothing to expect. and this year and also among the ukrainians, these political games and the leadership. and i would say that the 2nd offers, illuminated by who landscape is also part of the political game. it seems not very positive because what do we know about that new strategy that the new commander in chief wants to follow and how dependent is that from us help on, on tactics. uh, i think that was one of the main conflicts between loose me and the president. whether to for example, hold of the guy as long as possible. administer loss as to the russian side, or to believe of the car and shop in the front lines, especially with limited resources when it comes to i'm

a nation and other important resources. now that the decision has been made just b as in charles, a troops have been reinforced enough. do you have to be honest with you? if i'm going to turn in front of you, i'm skeptical a and this might the maybe administer lots as to the russian side, but also take very important power away from other segments of the front line and maybe even future offensive power away from ukraine. but it seems that this key is better in translating the political will of the president into the bedroom fields into small trusted by the ukrainian president. and it all points to a very difficult phase for ukraine to come under foot. that the combined is not changed as one issue, but i think ukraine has to solve mobilization and not deposited on as a hot potato from one to another. i think they have to take responsibility and get mobilization on track. it is necessary for ukraine, eh,

and the other element is the justice in the mobilization. i know this is hard for everybody who was able to, to be, to avoid being mobilized at the moment. but i think this is necessary also for the in a piece of ukrainian society so that there is no impression that some people fighting and others who can avoid being proud of to 5. but let's be very honest either the next months will be very difficult for ukraine on the bedrooms. you know, especially in these coming back to the question of financing and weapons. do you think you cream can manage, having less support from the us because it was said for a long time that it was not possible without the us. can europe deal with that alone? it's not so much about money. it is about money to and to the sums a very important will also for the media debate about this. but in the end, it's about the production capabilities. and we're in europe where i'm not able to

raise our production capabilities in time. they might kick in later some steps are taken now. so i think we should consider also using the european piece specific to money or other european money to buy from us companies, if necessary, if the congress is not giving to funds. and what is important is that the company abilities are arriving with these ukrainians. and especially in the gap between now and at least the presidential elections in the us. eh, and to provide also some way forward for the agreements. i think that's crucial. and i think is european still when it comes to from each of these spain, they have multiple abilities and they shall do more what somebody has to lead the process, bring everybody to get her, put something on the table, then say look, that's what we are doing. now let's make a new effort please everybody join in, but i'm missing executive debt element. maybe something will happen here at noon and security conference that starts tomorrow. leading the process is unimportant

keywords there. rachel, critics of joe biden have said that the west lacks a clear strategy on what it wants regarding russia in general. do you agree with that, or i think joe biden has a very clear strategy of what he would want. the problem as we're seeing is that the president's abilities are limited, right? biting as been pushing for a long time for this funding package to support ukraine. and he can make the difference, right. the republicans can stop at. so i think i think biden's strategy is pretty clear, but what happens with the u. s. support is very much an open question. i think you have battling visions, battling priorities and up until the election is going to be very difficult. what about the relation between uh donald trump and vladimir putin. and how does that play into the equation? because again, this was something that was speculated a lot about in the last term of donald trump. and it was not like we could say that

the us became a strong ally of brush or anything like it. or these fears were justified this time around. i don't know if they're more justified, but i think they're still justified. i mean, uh on, on 2 accounts. the 1st account is that, and, you know, trump has something like a grudge against, you know, certain european countries. you know, those who don't carry their weight and his view and his relationship with a lot of important as a bit unclear. um, and it's not always clear that he has a sort of long term strategy, a visa vi put. and so i think there is plenty of room to be concerned on both accounts for europe. so yeah, i want to ask you if the prospective new crane is the same, but maybe i may have the, as a historian, it was a dream already in the soviet union for the russians to split europe and the u. s. and so in this sense of letting me put in the election of donald trump is

a very nice the present. although he says he doesn't want that. he just said that he was july and he says a lot of things. yeah. the only one of those nails advice uh yeah, yeah. okay. uh would you like we nickel that put tennis succeeding in that goal if you will. well, 1st of all, on what 14 says, i think he is a cajun. be person. he never actually says what the things and he never does what he says. so i wouldn't most subscribe to his idea that he supports 5. i think the opposite is true, and when it comes to sickness to 14, i think it's very important for the europeans now to do everything necessary to signal to putting look. if you attack us, whatever you will do, you will lose us. and if the europeans are saying, oh, it's very difficult without the united states, and please, please us help us because we cannot do it alone, that this might be

a victim taishan football team to try things. so it's very important, i think also to get the communication around this right? and some conversations, for example, about nuclear determines should not be made. look toral campaign considerations. what are your pin problem? and i think they should be discussed behind the scenes between the, the nato partners, including friends and then you. okay. i think that's also a very necessary element right now. what i like just to exit, exercising. i think this is a good signal to the russian side. we've got to the exercise of stuff going on right now. i think we need more of that. that's all we have time for in this discussion. thank you so much talk 3 of you for joining us. and of course we'll see how that plays around. we cannot predict the future, but we certainly can try and just see scenarios. so thank you to all of you for that. thank you for watching, of course. and remember that you can always watch our shows and comments on them on our youtube channel. as always, stats dw, and use, i'm for you to get us on behalf of the entire team. thank you for joining us. see

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into the conflicts own with tim sebastian. i guess this week is electric considering co ukrainian. m. p. angelica for the parliamentary assembly council of yours for a year ago, gone to ranko, had post price because the landscape and reservations about him. because he still believe this presidents will be due crying to victory conflict. in 30 minutes, on the w to the point. strong opinions,

clear positions, international perspective. donald trump sounds like on extortionist of allies, one military protection from the us. they have to pay your, of a seeing his remarks on nato and russia as a wake up call. if he returns for the white house this week, onto the points 2 teen vent from a new access that gets nato. and right to the point in 19 minutes on d w. the nice to be at the end just to pass it, got any difficult to access the next edition ventures on to places that no one has the searching and why is the

ice melting the assignment research in the i c d w. so you don't think and feel the same way you expect and want different things from life and your parents. i just want to pursue what steps my salon fire or you think your kid is 2 different, risky, irresponsible, unreasonable stuff. i want my son to become a doctor to indicate it's time to, to us. and then when generations class this week on d w the,

this is dw news line from berlin. israel storms, the last big hospitals still functioning in gaza. the army says it has credible evidence that hamas held hostages inside the complex. also coming up a reversal incentive goal. the country's top election authority has overturn the president's decision to put off elections, which sparked deputy protests and concerns of i'd want was considered west africa's boston of democracy and nato. chase assess the threats to the west. europe's defense strategy. i'm the wars and tags on engine crane dominate 2 days of

toilets and brussels of the lines. the secretary general.