the way they are and where all the solutions mapped out, navigating a changing world. now, on youtube, the national leaders say they don't want to be drawn into a more with russia. that's also what germany's transfer would actually cleans. but experts, a sort, russia has long been at war with the west and with germany put in use as many weapons in his covert, warren cyber attacks, sabotage and this information for the latest examples of wiretapping affairs surrounding our conversation between the german army officials about delivering tourist miss house and to create it took little effort, but created maximum damage to germany's image since the war and ukraine began the west and especially germany as keeps the 2nd most important supporter has been increasingly targeted by russia secret service. it's how dangerous is this shadow

works and what can be done to counteract on to the point we ask rushes hybrid more fear the real threat to the west. the welcome to this week, to the point, i'm probably gonna get us. it's good to have you with us, and these are today's guess that's the issue is an expert on russia at germany's cub. foundation is lunar golf ones, which is a former german and passenger to moscow and was also the vice president of the german federal intelligence service be indeed from 2004 to 2007 and whom i'm going to think of is my dw colleague from ukraine, currently working with w as russian service in by 12 year. thank you very much for being with us today, and i'd like to start with you. leslie, how does this hybrid warfare work? and why isn't the public really aware that these attacks are constantly happening?

well, it's basically the concept of hybrid warfare that you don't initially notice that it's happening. hyper suassa can be anything that helps the security or the interest of one country and destroys the wants of another country. and that means this information campaigns and financing elections, migration flows of us, we've seen in dollars and before. so all of those were attacks are not visible with the naked eye initially, but they do have a very big impact, at least in the long term impact that crane has certainly felt already home on. uh, you know, that all these attacks have been going on for years now and you are, you create him, but you live here in germany. do you see a difference on how these types of attacks are perceived in those countries? well, of course there are differences. so, but there are also similarities. and just to remind you, i'm speaking about why i type in ukraine had its 1st shopping experience. i would say, while typing with russia was suspected to be behind, it was in the year,

2002001 a new credit and president of the time learned coach ma was a y, a taft talking about getting a journalist and a position john list under jones was killed that were processed in the country, but the result was that the pregnant president was discredited in the west. and duke having the movement to what the west was stopped, halted. uh, and in the 2003 ukraine. so we're offering hybrid war and on the island of those low, which is between mainland, russia and ukraine and it came in. russia was trying to build a kind of way, a land land bridge is at the boston bridge, but to uh, to connect by land. uh, those 2 parts and this is seen as the beginning of the water, the latest or, and well, a lot rush related to the crime in bridge that the german, a general. so for the lift off of we're talking about how you can go destroyed it was german corps, missiles, taurus, so it's a very long story. but the problem is,

as you've just said, you don't see it at once. and um, it took a long time for a claim to understand that it was actually at a hybrid, what was russia when we later talk, maybe about the media? because media is, is the key to the hybrid warfare. we certainly see that it took a long time for you kind of certainly also taking a long time for germany. apparently we've got restaurants not only known for performing these hybrid attacks, but also for executing them extremely well. our, the russian secret service is more capable, more sophisticated under western counterparts. first, i think we do have excellent intelligence over this and no countries, they're called for it very closely and they're there to protect all democracies. second, the russian intelligence services, whether it's under mine or democracies, and to protect the tucker, see a huge, very aggressive there on the present. but they're not always good. they too often

get caught with a hand in the cookie jar. but we think of the case is like, uh, the russian service is sending to spies into to the u. k. to try to assassinate an opponent was a means of foxy warfare to print you for all those, for the internet to this type of who they were, that the rest of the secret services were behind it. if we think of the as a nation of, of a church and leader here in britain and in broad daylight again, it took a very short time to establish. it was since it gets to the spent, they're not always good. and we do have good means at hand, i think to come to that to do. however, their impression is that some of the western countries and especially germany, is a bit vulnerable. the so called taurus leaks were a particularly good example of precious hybrid warfare. and recent times with far reaching consequences even days after being published, they continue to cause controversy within the german government and in public debate. an exclusively a recording of

a conversation between high ranking german air force offices that talking about taurus, cruise missiles, which have a long range and tremendous destructive power, specifically about possibly sending these items to ukraine and about potential targets. for example, the coach bridge, which connects crimea with russia and just seen by ukraine as a symbol of russian occupation. the taurus revelations are a major embarrassment. full button. that's alice is, it's an, an feed us game by troops and you don't and we cannot to full for its mission. often line the recording was published on the social media by magazine test team on the, on the head of the russian state. broad costs to rush up to date. the kremlin responds on nato colleagues, sorry, stream he goes, he will have to see how they explain this to their own problem, including is the west to catalyst and it's defense against russian hybrid attacks.

it certainly seems. so now we've got reports suggest that at least one of the german military officers was in using a secure line. is this more russian intelligence or more german failure to assess the risk? well, whatever it was, we wouldn't be much better and much more successful if we simply obliged to the rules we have imposed upon all cells to use means of, of the digital world of social media. without protection, of course, is an extremely dangerous that the digital world is a dream come true for intelligence surfaces like calling. if you use whatsapp or, or email or signal to whoever or zoom, it's like using a megaphone in the city. so we must be more aware of what's, what's happening. we must build awareness in our countries, and we must stop constantly discussing the issues the russian side, throwing at us. they want to keep us busy by discussing issues of what have we done

wrong or if it's like, and then we guilty of the russian aggression when i was invested or must go, i'd sometimes had the impression it was us when they did crime. yeah. so, and that is part of russian the hybrid warfare, to keep the other side busy with discussing an array of issues. what we must do is focus on what is actually going on. there is a russian impression that it's a russian aggression against ukraine. and it is a rusnick, aggression against us, against our security on liberty of freedom in our countries. and we must build out the public discussion over and again to that point and not constantly discuss what the russians would like us to discuss. however, the russians are very successful in placing topics in the agenda, and in this case, let's do the problem with these types of leaks specifically, is that they are true. it's not fixed and use, it's not this information. the conversations actually happened. how longer will these, the western countries and allies, to cases like this as well?

i think the biggest problem that is, that for russia, a success is already spreading doubts. you know, unit in the west is the biggest weapon we have against russia. and we now see, you know, that the, that our partners reacted well, not very amused about what was happening. the trust in germany is going down with this. and that's already a successful russia. at the cost of time we once a year, a pay a policy game and last year we did play a game that focused on hyper to tax on your pin infrastructure. and the 1st thing that our country teams, which are decision makers from european countries talked about was european cohesion. and it went up in the air. it was really hard to, to keep strays with this unit to you. and i think about us, that is the most important thing we have to focus on, and that is what's put in will always try to attack 1st. but do you think this is a germany elite problem or it could, this also happened to friends or the case a, or even the us. it's definitely happening happening everywhere. but i think at this

moment it's working very well in germany. and those narratives also connect to other narrative. so you have a, you know, this trust in the system. you will see those narrative everything very well. also with people who were against cobra's acceptance. like there's, there's very clear combinations between groups that just don't trust what they called the official narrative, what we would call the truth. um, so yeah, this plays into it. so there's, yeah, very easy grounds for those narrative to, to grow and to stay in in durham. and of course, it's also important to note if there is a specific goal on one of these attacks of women, we know that russia is trying to prevent germany from delivering those stories, marseilles, to ukraine. how big an impact at the specific attacks have on that goal. as well, um, it was a huge blow i would say to the, to the whole attempts of the west and especially of germany has a leading country in europe to help you crime because it, as you've said,

it undermines the trust and we have so much such big cases, but um, other issues when, when germany's awareness was, was questioned. for example, the case of the a, b, n, d m, a officer who's not on trial in building for working for russia. and of course, those cases and up, i think it's important to understand what you've said. gemini, has been a favorite russian playground for decades because of the ties between the 2 countries, because the germans were to a certain point blind towards russia. so they think they couldn't see certain things, they maybe didn't want to see them because it would mean the breaking of, of, of ties, which was decades long, economic ties, political ties, cultural ties. so people didn't want to do that. and maybe one more point i think is important and that that story was taurus, we still don't know all the answers,

but what we see is the most fia. why was those offices doing such things? i think part of the answer is because there is this whole feeling here in germany. we are not at all with russia, which is correct. i've been talking to you on the hill who is one of the best russia expressing the west and was a former advisor to the us administrations. and she said one very interesting thing, which is, which is obvious, but you have to speak it out. she said, we are not as old as russia, but russia. is that what with us at the hybrid war? and this is something not everyone understands here in germany. i think after this, taurus issue, things will change. this is what i hope. but there's been talk about russia attacking germany in one way or another and the west for a long time. good. a guy. you were there in 2014. when rushing made it to me where the investment in moscow. why do you think in action was the response? at least that's the perception. and will this change this to me, as in retrospect,

history always seems to be linear, but only in retrospect, if it would be linear, everybody could tell us today what china is heading. what china will be doing 5 years from now and how we should behave, we don't know. so, in a given situation, you always have to deal with numerous options. you have to respond, which happens then was strength and a clear answer while at the same time look for solutions that could be possible to settle the given issue. relating to pushing to speak about the narrative of history didn't become president in december 1999 in order to invade ukraine. on february 24th 2022 as he is a k to be officer. and he himself has said, once like a cage be always case you be can you be office has a not trained strategists, they are trained as technical operational activities. and that's what he is good as

good that he has always sort of 5 options at the table. and he will proceed with the one where he gets through, where he gets away with. and he'll get away with where we don't take a clear stance and give a clear answer to what he is doing. and where are we in our discussion back home, don't over and again establish what the whole situation really is about where we fall into his traps. it's a prep of adult spreading as well as we write the say, and particularly it's a trap. a few he's building that. russia has 3 traditional export goods which are successful, fossil fuels, arms, and fear russia is exporting for you. they are rooting the country inside with fear and repression that trying to create fear in our countries to sort of influence our discourse, our discussion, make people afraid, and our response to what is happening in ukraine and as an attack against us is led to often drop by our logic, we must think in the logic of the other side,

what are they up to and where therefore also a sore key could be found out of the given situation. the problem is certainly complex and complex are the solutions, assessing a hybrid more is difficult, it's never officially declared, and it happens as we've heard, underground and as unnoticed as possible. let's have a closer look at the most important activities of the russian secret services in their hybrid warfare. a brick freezing spies, all in full months, a secret service classic. they're also religious traits is like cost and l and the german federal intelligence service. he is set to have post on confidential information to the russian secret service when it comes to sabotage submarine cables and other critical infrastructure are particularly vulnerable, which the example of the north street and gas pipelines shows will start seasoned institutions such as the e u. parliament and the german buddhist talk of being targeted by cyber attacks.

the communications happen into set to them secret data obtained using trojans. election propaganda is in full swing, the european elections will be held in june and here to the real fee is that person could use this information to reach the targeted influence. how come the west township hooton's co vote tools? that's of course, the $1000000.00 question. i'm throwing it to you. leslie, what can be done? i think the most important part is education. people need to be aware of what's happening and preparation. this happening with the nature at the last summit was emphasized. that's, you know, sign up cyber warfare hybrid attacks would be included in the an article 5. this isn't easy. it's not always easy to prove where those attacks came from. although it might be obvious who meant my benefit. but, you know, you can, you have to prove something like this before calling article 5. but i think part of

just to explain to are the all just, just in case of the article, it says that if one nato country is attacked, it's at war with all of natal country. yes. so the others will, will stand on that side and does especially relevant for countries like the politics which are very close to the russian border. but also to us, it's happening. it's happening to us every day. and we don't know when something big might be coming. so i think preparing for this very close cooperation with our allies is vital for this. and as we see a potential of trump presidency coming back and we should be doing that within due and within our european fall spaces of, of cooperation. especially right now as unity as important, but when you know that your train is at a full own war with west, all right. now, what are some examples of successful strategies that can be taken even by all the western allies to counter the hybrid work? well, i think that um, the ukrainian cyber defense is a very good example over ukraine and success because they watched the patients that

russia might hit to crying in the cyber a very, very hot this didn't happen. i think the result is the do kind prepared for that and i think the west is not yet the ready for, for the challenge at the moment. so we haven't seen maybe major um cyber attacks, but they still could come. and um, the example of that wire tapping of the buddhist where offices, high ranking officers is assigned to and not everyone is aware of the danger that is there. um, i would like to say that um, in the field of media, we are still under per pad. i think because, and you can was also under per pad when russia and next time. yeah. it took your crank 6 months to kick russian tv channels out of the networks 6 months after the invited. so kendall is not ready for that. um and it's also a problem for germany. we don't have some, some russian channels, a blog, but not every one of them. so you can still watch russian television. and we have

a huge rush and russian speaking population in germany, the german possible. it's watching russian television, watching russian propaganda. and we don't know exactly what's going to be done about them. so how can we better inform them and, and not let them be used against the german state in cases like and that story was the, the young go these in germany a few years ago when the russian propaganda try and destroy unrest in germany. so such cases would come again. so the question of course is how does germany counter that in an institutional level as well? we know where to go to germany, of course is doing things. um is it enough so, and is it in line with a liberal democracy to say perform a tax like the rest of the tax is weaker than the other side? in exec did that area we are well for very good reasons. we're not ready to deal was exactly the same means to counter investments, right. so on the other hand,

we must realize that for example, germany is a country is changing tremendously with a huge tank. and we're sort of turning course slowly. we come a long way, and now we have the 2nd most important fly, a supply of arms to ukraine, doing more per capita than the united states. vain young denmark and others even do more per capita. and one thing that is extremely important, i think, is to have more self confidence, confidence into the supremacy of all the system in our solutions. because we all supreme liberal democracies are able to change. they have an open discourse, we can select a new government, we can change course. a talk receives a stuck with the solutions and we see it in the case of russia that it's sort of narrowing down more and more and is just as one autocrat leading his country into

the f. as in the long run. the system con function is taken his economy into a war economy is spending the national reserve of the country. he's losing income from oil and gas if used to be 50 percent of the state budgets know 28 percent. he's spending 40 percent of his budget on his warfare, and he is afraid of reactions from his own people. i mean, how weak is a regime that arrests people where they flowers to commemorate and assassinated critic. so let's have more self confidence. we are able to withstand this onslaught which happens in, in many ways, through hybrid wall, for etc. but we're able to withstand how about that confidence here in germany? leslie, would you agree that it's lacking in that it should be more and some people even say that germans are not really aware of the risks that they are into right now or i would agree with us. i think many people are not aware of that in politics

decision making as well and in society. and i think it's important to note that it's not only about what's happening in a crate and it's not on need this information about like with rest uh, words, crane related topics. it's anything. it's basically anything that will bring us, you know, in, in a discourse that is more fighting then you know, united docs. and then i think that's very important to note. and i would like to add to, to agree to just point that i think, yes we, we do have a ways to, to deal with, with what's happening in ukraine. that's our superior because of our direct democratic background. but i think we have to remember that we're right now in a world where we have to stand up for those values. and if we don't do that, and we don't do that in a very many a way, we will lose that leveretts. and yeah, i think there it goes far beyond the borders of the crane arissa and but that, that plays into it as well. and i think that is also something that we're not aware

of enough at this moment. the ability to change is very important, but human ukrainians have complained many times about the inaction and long reaction times of western allies. what's the perspective there on the possibility to prepare and to react to what's going on in countries that need discussion and the need due process? well, you can learn from ukraine of course now, but um for you, okay. it's in regard for me too late to be a good example. um, but um, just just what, so let's maybe look at some other things that are happening and that could happen also in germany. look at, look, look back at the united states, the presidential, comparing wind rush. i licked the information from the democratic party to the media to the world, trying to undermine the democratic presidential candidate. this is hybrid warfare i would prepare for such on the deck now in germany. i'm not sure, but we should be and such things happen all over the world. so is much broader than

just to crime. so russia is a, sees itself in a hybrid well with the west was bust him countries, especially the eastern and central central europe. but now in germany, especially, and this is, this is why they, they did adult, the tribes to undermine the relationship between germany, france and u. k. as the major, don't know, still ukraine. they knew that there was some tensions before. they didn't have to do that because the chancellor schultz actually said, said we would not deliver taras missiles through grade. he had gave his reasons. so there was no, no reason. absolutely for russia to nick that. but they did it. why? i think that they wanted just to undermine the relationship within nato. yes. 100 mind to jump to the trust in germany. i do think we're heading into the right direction with that. did it work or do you still see cohesion video? basically, we're heading into the right direction to europe in union is a very strong institution, a very close alliance. we've built enormous successes over the years. we must

become better than a joint and eunice on foreign and security policy. we must undertake efforts in that sense. and as a country we must prioritize the topics and the issues, what is important security? it's education, it's fucking climate change and it's economic competitiveness. and that's just something the government and politics must overall communicate more. and if we do that, then we can focus more on the real threats. we are dealing with unity at as the main response of the 3 of you is required to face these challenges. that's all that we have time for this week. thank you so much for watching. remember, you can participate in the discussion any time. and by joining us on youtube, the name, you know, what is the w use for? you'll find this and all our other shelves. thank you so much for watching. i'm going to guess till next time. take care of the

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