in the environment, every fridays the india is being referred to as the next bill. the supervisor with significant economic growth and deal has become assault off the international partner, thoughts behind and desk growth story. now the more the has been and follow for the last 10 years and he seems to be on course to win a toad consecutive to him as a prime minister multiples largest democracy modems to modernize india and throwing it into a significant geo political class. he's skilfully navigating between the major follow blocks and for the night india as the voice of the bill of a solid. so today on to the point we have discussed, this is india and ben would be on under data. so by

the hello and welcome to to the point, i'm you shop hard. yes. on in here in berlin and today, my guess was the jail. and now he is an ex german diploma. he was invited to of, to him need to india from printing 19 to 2020 to join. samuel is head of global dialogue on presentation of the bill republic policy institute, g, p, a in berlin. and joining us via skype from handbook we have media improve thompson, she is lead refers need research fellow at the german institute for global and adf . so they've got a very long to come to all a few. thank you for joining walter. you have a long standing relationship with india. you went that as a 21 years old to discover the country to discover yourself. and then you'd have

tired of a massive bill. now you've seen and bill from 1970 is to 20 twenty's. how hasn't yet changed? well as, as a lot of things in india and everything is to and the culture is also true. so it has not changed at all. and it has changed completely. no, it did change completely because of course it's no more than state. you don't see the other friends on the streets anymore and you have of skies is a scope as everybody, if you're going to move by this is a different, a different girls know every good because i'm all done. so it is nothing reminds you on the india for 50 years ago, but if you look deeper and then you see to the ritual to see, to do see to the culture 7000 views. and in comparison to 7000 useful just for the 50 is nothing's all you have to reach was you have to campus if the most, cuz you have all the cultural a insignia and, and uh, so this is all, it's the same as the quotes around india you'll find the india of which you have seen 50 years ago and maybe 200 years ago. so modern india with traditional values

. now you're not only an extra for the modules, so musician your also an all time you've written a book and so i'm going to be fine and think about it. to loosely translated saves the old list on the new out what we should learn from india before it is too late. what should the rest learn from india? where the points of course, one is to see the europe and the rest is not the rest of the road. it is 20 percent of the roads and 80 percent of the roads are a global solid countries. so when we had to do, you know, and very often we look too much into a euro, scientific way, german centigrade and think this is what the rest of the world has to think. no, it is not. because the other points, if you're in the rest of the right, so this is, you see a more globalized world with indians. indians have, have a, uh all the indians living in other countries in most of the countries of, of the world, maybe in 190 countries. you have a desperate,

an indian desperate. then of course, teach at the station. then a young, a young, a generation 50 percent under $35.00. and then you have to risk taking into bruno ships in the ation uh to gods, which is um, something typically they need the old. so there are a lot of things which we can learn from india and most of all the the shoots um dedicated more time and should listen to india. thank you. let's go to museum. medium voltage is gave us a glimpse of how in the history and then the last 5 decades. now, if you could specifically tell is how india has changed in the last one decade on the movie. could you think, does that make sense? yes, i mean i fully agree that that's a lot of continuity going on. um, i mean with my focus on sort of in yes, foreign policy and in the field of stature, i think the addition to play, and i think this is a quote from a ministry of external fast report to play the rightful place at 2222, re

a c received the rightful place on the world stage. i think what has changed significant, significant base that india is now very close to this sort of self defined a global role. and i think moody and, and his sort of very vicious, international um, outlook on in the global position i think has contributed a lot to that. so i think um, where is india has always been on the way of reaching global stature of having a extremely important and retro my school position has always been there. i think it's never been closing to joseph for actually achieving this. now you'll go on to the report card in the off to 2024 elections and more the same set to win this election. so yeah, what do you think is going to change in the next 5 years under moody? or i would expect not too much to change. i think the challenge is,

i mean the most domestic through them in the, at keeping up. so if the economic development and the economic growth at the level that that indian needs to be to achieve some rich goals, i mean, that's been calculations that well in order to reach the, the, the size of, of marketing the size of the economy that is aspire to any growth rates of 10 percent and i think that's a massive challenge. so i think that will be probably more or they're just very likely to be more engagement, more reforming the sector. i think in terms of again, foreign policies. i think in yes, doing a very good job at the moment to to go for its own interest in the right. so i don't, i do not expect too much change, but more going to genuity on on. that's right. on the you'll see any change in the next 5 years. i think the big thing for the moody government will be to really keep up this promise of, you know, making india developed country by 2047. the economy is growing at a 7 percent g,

d p growth rates, which is very admirable. and it's set to leap frog germany and japan if it continues that to a 3rd position behind the us and china. and so i think the economy and ensuring that job creation is there because it has an average 8000000 people go into the labor market. they need jobs to make it competitive. and to also finding ways to continue not only economic growth, but counter balance the different security and the challenges that it has in the region. and making sure it in gauges with partners across the globe. while at the same time, protecting its own national interest, which is economic development. so i think the big hurdle will be to continue this and i think that will be the biggest challenge for the, for the government to continue talking about the economy. me, my voting is on the way in india, an open in full suggest an easy victory for not into more days. park the agenda

about the to be to be. so why doesn't more do you have to worry about any opposition in the election? it seems to boil down to the often repeated phase. it's the economy, stupid, but also to more these identity politics. induce 1st, that's the ideology being used by prime minister moody to govern the world's largest democracy. and it's making him popular around 80 percent of indians are hindus, minorities, and opposition. members, on the other hand, have reported instances of intimidation. moody is popular because he has invested heavily and infrastructure and launch the social programs. during his 10 years of leadership, india has gone from 10 to the world's 5th largest economic power, surpassing its former colonial ruler. great britain. india also wants to overtake germany and japan, by the end of the decades. what the other high profile success is like the 2023 moon landing only underscores in these emissions to become a high technology nation. and yet poverty is still invisible problem. and

a country of approximately $1400000000.00 people with an average annual per capita income of around $2400.00. india barely out earns nicaragua, demographics, democracy, and diversity. from moody's point of view, this trip effect is responsible for india as new york. right. is india on its way to becoming a superpower? let's go to a medium and understand what is a sofa file. exactly. everyone's talking about india being the next supervisor. but what does that mean as well? i think, i think it's hard to going to be talking about super powers in the current international systems. i think we're going to talk about several great paolo's or a poles in our, in our sort of multi polar system. but i do think, i mean, very concretely, it means for in the likely seat and the un security council, for example,

it means to play. and i think that's trying to india a string to not having to decide for one or the other for china or for the united states. i think that's one particular power that it yeah at the moment exposes, um, and i think it's a b, b not being able to be overlooked in importance of well political decision making the climate change. be it a, whatever resolution to the recurring cries it, be it sort of the next pandemic, so not to be overlooked, and to be considerate in and to actually not only be considered as by to shape sort of the rules or norms that are gonna structure the solution all sort of global challenges. so i think that so considering all of that in your opinion is india on the right path? is india on its way to becoming us? what about um yes, i do think that in. yeah. um is going to have to be considered in all of these issues. i mean, if we're looking to climate change,

the paris balls cannot be achieved without the indian action on climate change. for example, um india does have to watch out that it's sort of it's, it's right in conflict attentions with china of distracting it much from the past. but i do think overall now as the sort of indian moment in the sort of times of polarization and conflict where you can play this sort of independence, a foreign policy out to its own strength. all right, good. when we talk about sort of our economy plays amazing role and you were talking about the economy of, you know, there are these 2 extremes. you have the rise in economy, the infrastructure is getting better. there's absolutely no doubt about it. whoever has been doing there recently would say that the apple, it's a matter that i'm gonna have is that more data is etc, but forward to you on unemployment data mean big issues. how does that go hand in hand? look, i mean, india and indians have ambitions and aspirations, right?

india is being quoted by countries all over the world. it says, you know, it's the voice of the global self. it has an economy that is the 5th largest in the world. but at the same time, it has a wealth gap that is tremendous. and it's got one of the largest income discrepancies in the world between those were really wealthy. and those were really 4. but you have to keep in mind that the indian government has to do a balancing act. on the one hand, it's trying to grow and economy. but it also has to, it's responsible for 1400000000 people in this country. and it's not going to happen overnight. this will take time. and the india is one of the world's largest democracies. it's one of the misuse democracies. and you know, it's not going to just happen from one day to another. it's not going to happen within that decade. it'll take decades. so um i do question if india is on its path to becoming a super power in the most traditional sense, right. like if you talk about the us hedge many decades ago,

i don't think i think that will just behind us. but india is an important power, it's an influential power and it's voice matters. and it will increasingly matter as we move forward. but i asked is because it's a little counter intuitive that the economy is rising and yet they need an economy is not able to generate employment for such a big huge it does generate employment and the government will tell you that it, it has generated employment. but the issue and critics, what they say is that the employment is in low paid jobs in agriculture and in jobs that are involving dates like day jobs, where much of it gets unpaid. for example, women do a lot of unpaid care work. so it's not that the job to not there, but they're not necessarily the jobs that they use and people coming out of university want because it's not being generated as quickly as 8000000 people enter the workforce annually. that's the challenge for any government surveys show that

you work on employment as one of the biggest issues in this election. despite that most of your domains extremely popular and especially amongst butte, how do you explain that popularity? but like i said several reasons, of course one is, i mean here's, here's one to a twice a landslide victory. you can't win a landslide victory and the world's biggest democracy without being popular. so something along the way he must have done right. that people vote go out and vote for him in such a must be for a 2nd. um, there must also be some of something in the records which he leaves behind. economic reforms of shop creation says, confidence, building and other things of which are positive to the villages. thirdly, i think of course, the concentration of his person and his p r machinery around him is also make,

seem, uh, a pups are with fellow follow us like, of barack obama i guess, and inch popstars. um. so there are lots of reasons and of course also maybe one of the reasons is the critics say he's not the, he's the, the, the handle of the section of the country of positives this new set is raising the self confidence and awareness of indians that they have a set and 1000 via all you need. culture, of course, criticize this is shrinking spaces for the, for saving society, whatever. but this, the, both of the decide. but i think there are a lot of reasons. and after all this, he has also a kind of a background which is a very humble family background. and it's kind of us, kate, big lifestyle. while maybe others in the old position don't have this. and then he has also had an old position which was for a long time, not really sure of. should they go for elections and should dave, which would be,

who should be the candidate. so this was also a fact to be checked in. i would, i agree with the investigator said, but i would respectfully also challenge the notion of why he's so popular. it's not just because of everything he said, but the critics have said that he has glowing mainstream media coverage at the expense of suppressing press freedom. on the other hand, the position leaders have their finances frozen in the bank. so it hampers campaign financing. and you'll also have opposition leaders who are imprisoned on n t corruption charges shortly before the run up to the election. so when you close down the spaces, it's not too difficult to become the main voice that people see people here. i give it to you that he's done a fantastic job with social media since 2014 elections when he 1st came on. he really capitalized, but it's let's not paint or overly rosy picture. i think there's still

a lot to be scrutinized and that's always $65.00. i mean that's what it's in terms of lens light. i mean, we are, we have sort of 1st past the post election system where like 42 percent give you a vast majority in the parliament. so i think there's the lens might also, it's sort of an authentic of the voting system and you have to do it more than half, not only formally as well, ma'am, if you're going to follow the report that we just played in the studio, no more the stresses the importance of demography, democracy and i was happy with everything that jewel has also said. what did it say about democracy and diversity of exactly what is under threat under movie and that's what he is advertising that you know, this is what we need. even in your report, you have mentioned in the us and i called ever less democratic country. now, movies also seem as addicted, tory and figure out in the west. i would like to understand for someone who has that a positive, how is it that we talk about landslide victory?

isn't that he's going to get a majority of how isn't that? so many people want to vote for someone who is such a director told you the post knowledge i want, but i think i, i think it would be a little bit capitalistic tutorial. but i do mean um, what has just been said. i think the encroachment on democratic freedoms has been very tangible. but at the same time, i think moody has managed to pick up a, a sentiment that has always been there. sort of the nationalistic hindu focus sentiment that has always been there. i in preparation of today i read about a polar where in 2974 percent of the sort of a survey set that india, this is sort of, should be very proud of itself and has a better system than most of the places. something along the lines and that that has not shifted them with some of the 74 percent in 2009 and in the 2019 it was still over 70 percent. so i think the managers to pick up the sentiment very much

while at the same time that of utilizing that of you know, cause of nic somewhat under democratic means to, to enhance his brand and his grasp also on, on, on society. right. and investment countries. i've also expressed concerns about this, but at the same time, we also want to strengthen that dies within the independent of its democratic regard. meanwhile, in just foreign policy is based on the principle of non alignment. whether it's that i show you the green bar or the goal is or conflict. india under warranty, has decided not to take any sides. let's take a look at how india is navigating between the various power blocks or indian prime minister. moody received a standing ovation when visiting us congress in summer 2023, where he was celebrated as

a champion of democratic values to us to our partnership, to our people, to the possibilities of life had 2 great friends to great nations, into great power. the western democracies are according moody, partly because they see india as a strategic geo political alternative to be increasingly aggressive china. but india has its own objectives. it has not clearly condemned, is war against ukraine, and it continues buying oil and weapons from russia. the movie presents himself as a confident spokesman for many countries in asia, africa, in latin america, countries for whom europe's problems feel more distant. she said this today, india is the voice of the global sales. what foreign policy interesting is india pursuing under moody water. how do you explain more these foreign

policy? i think he has a very skilful of 5 minutes. so that's one of the points, which is i think a big asset of what they knew of today. a very skillfully but mere inside of the other side. he is maneuvering among all these big power interests and he's doing a great shopping in making clear that india is not willing to be to follow the decisions of a new blog somewhere. but we have some nations gather together and think they can make decisions for the rest of the about this time. so i'll pass and go on and i think he's very right. doing so if you see 20 percent of your, of, of, of the real this is, is your being and the rest is not your. so why should 20 percent pass script? uh, well, how hold the rest of the road trips. so i think there he has done a good job, but of course he's, it's back by the, by the,

by parameters the movie. so this kind of maneuvering and among different interests, where do you find these days? a country big country, which is good relationship to isn't ends to the pilot stones and to ukraine who was just the other person and to show and to the us and even to china. very those are kind of a pragmatic way of dealing with it. so doing this, i think you have to be skillful, and i think this is something that we have the which we really need in the future more because you would need to countries like them, like like india, which could, i wouldn't not say made the age of but, but what would be the to balance international interest in the, in the 21st century drum. there are a lot of the dogs that have come up in the so call him or did i like body has origin to make in the other rest will go to the jumping of the word the leader of the word. and india is the wish to me through the friend of the word. how does this

trend walk the tightrope with east and west of the 2 ends? and that's a good question. i would also question whether non alignment still really exists because what i see is india is moving slowly from non alignment to multi alignment . and what i mean by that is look at it security blocks and other blocks that it's part of. if you look at the sion high corporation organization, it's a security block. it's working alongside china and russia. if you look at the or breaks, it's again working alongside russia and china. but then if you look at the quote, it's working with the us, which has long, contentious relationships with both russia and china. so i think india is and the indian government is very carefully maneuvering this balance between on the one hand and becoming more open economically and security wise. but it has to balance this with also the political economic realities at home. and it's were willing to work with other countries that maybe it didn't get along with tool in the past,

so long as it's pushing forward. india's agenda, which is economic development. and that is the main main balancing act there. let's go to a meeting before we close the show meeting, we don't have a lot of time, but as you saw in the board more the claims that in deputy is the voice of the globe as though now india has bought at the entrance with china relations with india and started with focused on have gone from back to us and we saw this diplomatic grow with motives. so with all these tensions, how does end up become the leader of the global south? but i think that that phrase has become very important in yeah, but i don't think it's that important positively to the rest of the south, which still is very good relations with china. for example. i do think that it's a good sort of marketing way of putting in the even more the map am but upset because i think as india has become most of the transactional and pragmatic,

i think other countries of the global south as well. and so i think if interest align with in the great, if the line with china. great. so i don't think this sort of voice one voice for the global south as an exemption in this regard. thanks mate him. that's unfortunately all of the time that we have, but i would still like to us in one sentence by when can we expect and go to become this one of our time will tell you what that is. it's, it's already done a good way. so i think it's very close, that's all the time because what do you think about it? well, and that'll be the next up hour if yes by right. and if you're watching us on youtube to let us know, your thoughts will be reading your comments. thanks for your time. good. by the

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