the thoughts, survival, thanks to music and a little money such the channels to play on as well because the only one super lucky music under the sun starts may 25th on dw are welcome to ask the w, the show that's all about your questions. i'm bring golf, they say that there's is a partnership with no limit to presidents. china is she's in pain and rushes by them. your project will today we'll be talking about the relationship between 2 of the world's major powers and we want your input. now it's easy to get involved if you're not already there, just go to our youtube page. the address you see right there on your screen. so you shouldn't meeting today. he rolled out the red carpet for his friend by the way, bruton kicking off the russian president's 2 days to visit and offered his

gratitude to she for standing by russia. and he extended a special thank you to she for his proposal for ending the war and you crate. the chinese president, he's never condemned to russians invasion of ukraine. once again, he called for a diplomatic solution, a not so subtle hints that china would very much like to be seen as a piece broker. and if you're just joining us, this is ask the w putting in she. what's it for both sides? one is you to send us your questions and comments and we will discuss it. i say we that's because we've got to get to our on board today to people who know russia and china from london. i'm happy to welcome to tasha court. natasha is a senior lecturer in international peace and security at kings college london. it's good to have you with this. the tasha ends here in berlin with me is my colleague clifford coolant. cliff is our in house go to person on china. he lived and

reported from there for more than a decade. so welcome to you both quick question to you both to get us started here, who needs whom in this no limits partnership? the boat rushes pro 10 or china is she's in pain. natasha. let me get your quick answer, who need to most as well right now. clearly, russian aids china the most, you know, typically what would you say? i definitely agree with natasha on that one right now. given they've had a very complicated relationship for many years. but right now i think the bowl is very much in and rushed. okay. all right, i'm gonna, i'm gonna throw the questions out to everyone. joining us as well between she's and paying, invite them to put in who needs, who more? what do you think when she just finished your answers and, and send us your questions as well, you'll be part of the discussion in real time. what did they, what am i putting stood beside, changing thing and he said that they are the leaders upholding a multi polar world order that is democratic and based on international law or

perception may not be reality here, but it certainly is important. let's taking in depth look now what, how russia and china view each other as they both face growing tensions with the west, a last months chinese presidency. jim ping made russia his 1st overseas trip up to securing a 3rd as the most go, a symbolic choice of to use a pandemic era. isolation voting. now, just to recap to his face, the new gratian is russian president, vladimir, who's in is returning diona, making badging the 1st 4 and trip of kids to both countries are interested in projecting unity in the face of what they say is a global or the dominated by the united states that when russia's foreign minister says a lot problem was engaging last month he hailed what most going badging questions and no limits punch. it is new to us not more than once our leaders, president,

putin and president changing, paying, like have stressed at the determination of russia and china to counter attempts to slow down the formation of a multi polar world to slow down the long overdue processes of democratization and justice, which is obviously, is pretty good, least as they celebrate 75 years of different logic ties. china is very much the senior partner, the 2 sides of the military exchange. it seems facing, launched his invasion of ukraine more than 2 years ago. and even more importantly, some must go trade ties between the 2 balloons. providing russia an economic lifeline. a mid sweeping international sanctions. might be the response west committee does have when she attends, providing must go with support which supports invasion. you may get a, some have even, ah, she to ring in boots that we called on china to use all its influence on russia to end russia's will of aggression against ukraine. but china is lead just as long

as she brushed off the criticism and ignore the request. was fine really you? we oppose using the ukraine crisis, the cost, blame me, a 3rd country, and inside a new cold war, son don't, should look into like you see your opinions about him. if your team share just staying for us global leadership with most go increasingly isolated diplomatically and is the economy you lost the prop top by badging both know that no limits. partnership is no longer one between equals or you heard how russia and china are both buying for influence in a world order that until recently has been dominated by one superpower, the united states. we've got clifford who did here in the studio with the china angle and natasha accord for insight into russia and it's foreign policy towards china. they're ready to answer your questions and respond to your comments. and we're going to start things off with the tasha. natasha today. why them your food

and said that russia and china together uphold the principles that i'm quoting here of justice and a democratic world order that reflects multi polar realities and is based on inter national law. so are we supposed to forget that the last 2 years happened to me? can you put us in the mind there of let them improve? yeah, i mean, um, i would say that um, what the talking about is to maintain is maintaining the centrality of the united nations and you know, and it's very much will say probably in reference to what the us stage and iraq and so on. and obviously also what happened then with costs of a, the intention by nature and cost of a $9.00 to $99.00 when there was no explicit authorization from you. and

so it's, it's basically about upholding the centrality of the united nations. when the truck buttons national it's always more a cases of the case you're a do is as i say, not as i do. is that the, the subtext here? yeah. yeah. yeah. that's, i'm, i mean, you know, obviously there's a different understanding of play around what international is, or clifford, what, what would you say? i mean, the season thing. he, obviously he's, he's going along with what vladimir i purchased at the day. but for the same reasons. but i think what's crucial to this is, is the fact that the unifying factor that these 2 countries have is their opposition to the us it's, it's the one thing that they have in common. and they've had a very long and tricky relationship over the years. that russia has always been the dominant as traditionally being the dominant partner and back in in 1949. when, when mounted on went to visit moscow,

he was there for 2 months. some people say he was almost kept a prisoner in a dr. outside moscow. and eventually style and agreed to see him. they signed a sign of associated agreements which became the basis for their relationship for many years until they broke up. and then they became bitter enemies. so they have huge. it's usually complicated relationship. and i think at the moment, as we mentioned, and in the opening, the, they're very much in the ascendance. the chinese are very much in the ascendance. however, they're still trying to portray things as if this is an alliance as close as lips and teeth. and they use words like democracy and international law, but they don't mean the same thing as democracy and his national law mean in the west. china's version democracy is not based on on constitutional democracy. it's, it's more ruled by by party. and international law means pretty much whatever china wants it to mean at that time. this gets it a lot of a need for given time, just because trying to lot of leeway with dealing with things like the south china

sea attitudes to taiwan and also, and helping it give it support then to russia's invasion of ukraine. we're getting some questions or comments from our viewers now. i just went through a couple of these out we've got abroad. bestbuy is writing that she and fruits and share a marriage of convenience of it. is that true to make that statement? clement is this a marriage? of convenience, it is, i think at the moment china is enjoying the cheap energy that it's getting from uh, from russia. economically the russian economy is probably smaller than smaller in italy. so it's not, it's on, it's on a major player in terms of the way china thinks globally, but politically it's, it's put there by the right close, and this sort of a, par, terry, and uh, auto acrostic sort of level. um and so it, it suits, it suits the way of thinking and try it very much. so in that way it would be a marriage of convenience and it's actually would you agree? i mean, or is this a marriage where the 2 partners they may not love each other, but yeah, they need each other right now. yeah, i mean i, i,

i feel it's slightly reductionist, to just cool to imagine for maintenance because it's, you know, a marriage that's lost at the very long time. now, you know, let's not forget, you know, go back to 1989 and go, but shows, you know, his visit to, to beijing, which is when you know, that they've gotten to mentor, let relations and you know, they have quotes, a multi faceted relationship. so it's not just about the portal. obviously, china looks off to china itself for a 2nd interest. so clearly it will take for the account and right. but there are all sorts of other layers. i think the relationship in there also ways in which china is learning a lot from russia, you know, diplomatically because obviously china is, well, you know, if it's anything that's fairly seventies, right? so, and it has actually been around diplomatically it also lends from russia militarily, you know, through the minute trips decides and so on. so, so i think, you know,

although it, it, there is a certain aspect of it which is about convenience. there is more a bit more to it than that. we've had a question coming in. i'm from timothy the only asking, i'm how our bilateral agreements between beijing and law scale and likely to impact western security. natasha. i'll let you take a step at that. so these bilateral agreements, what will they do for western secure? um yeah, i mean, we don't know the full content of updates agreements. of course, you know, there isn't that not in the alliance. so there's an as low into operability between the on forces for example. but clearly, you know, there's already been an impact in the sense that, you know, it's more about, you know, china is positioning. obviously, it's of a, the brand more, you know, the fact that also that russian knew it had a reliable strategic,

rare in the russian 5 or is because china wasn't games threaten russia's, a, it was able to take and the dollars number of trips from the russian from the board and the russian foraged from the board of china and many of them to train, for example. so it's kind of, it's more about that kind of thing. and also, of course, russia seeming to support china in the asia pacific or in the pacific as we tend to call it now. and, you know, also supporting china that was joint patrols, an intimidating south career and japan and so on, you know, which hadn't done before, you know, say 10 years ago. try russian was much more sort of circumspect if you like in that region clipped. what do you say about this? i mean, these bilateral agreements between china and russia, in beijing's view of things, there's a, there's a in boldness when it's dealing, particularly with the united states. i think it does, particularly,

it looks and in the end of pacific region as natasha is just mentioned, we don't know what china's we do know which one is i'm patients are we don't know how that's going to lock these emissions when it comes to things like taiwan. so today we seen a lot of movements in the south china sea, for example, that seems to be intensifying there, where china has said that they can arrest anyone going into water, considers its territory inside tennessee and the philippines ascending ships there at the moment to protect what it sees its territory. so should there be a flash point in there? it would obviously be in china's interest to have support from, from russia when, when russian moves its troops from the, from the far east towards ukraine, you can't help a feel. it's with a certain anxiety you've given that china has called quite a lot of interest in, in that particular area. trying has gone an awful lot of people rushed as a very big place with a lot fewer people. and it's, it's always, it's made no secret of the fact that likes it there. so we've had a question that is coming in from cover lena, lena, she is asking,

how will china and why should benefit each other through a long term partnership? of course that's assuming that this is going to be a long term partnership, clifford, i'll let you answer that. yeah, i think it's, it's, it's such a complicated relationship that i think i'm such an unstable relationship in many ways that i think trying to predict what will happen the long term is extremely difficult. at definitely, personally, i know she's been paying admirers, put in the admirers, put in his way of dealing with things when we saw when the bricks was found at the brazil, russia, india, china, and these countries 1st got together and south africa for us got together. we saw that there was very much, you know, the, a personal sort of bomb there since then china is expanded massively so he knows seasons have more than equal perhaps with, with, with pretend. but certainly on that level of that personal relationship. it's very strong. but looking ahead that there are so many areas as well, where they have difference and increasingly as rush it becomes more and more needy

. i think it's very difficult to imagine how things will unfold as they go forward . and it's actually, if we just consider the 2 men that we saw today, i mean, we've got a, you know, puts and coming in here. he's just secured yet another term in office. she's been paying his hold on power is not, not even being questionnaire. mean, these are 2 leaders who are sitting firmly in the settlement where they look at the united states or where they look at europe. they see something that is, is not as predictable or as a study. do you agree? yeah, yeah, i mean, i think that's a very good point. um, you know, it's very useful to imagine how they look at the well, you know, because it's obviously the nature of the regimes and makes the few of the world very different. and of course, when they looked at each other, you know, that kind of, um, you know, there's a sort of solid charity there if you like, you know, because like best of course,

to criticize the of the is the idea of circles colored revolutions. you know, that stem will ration change, so in the pay the soviet region. so, you know, for example, in the ukraine in 2004, georgia and so on. and then of course my dom and ukraine. you know, all of these phenomena, if you like, one of these uprisings and popular uprisings, a sting notes as kind of, you know, something organic and having grown, but as it focused right from the outside, by western forces. and that's how they sort of the arg spring and china has exactly the same view, you know, the hong kong umbrella revelation as well. you know, russia kind of chimed in and code chinese narratives on that. and obviously, china, i paid russian narratives on the mind. um, so that view of, of, of the world is really, you know, very similar and, and let me put this view of the, the, the future of this more in ukraine. i mean,

i assume that he is in china now also feeling and boldly because of the gains that we're hearing about. yeah. around in the area of our keith. i mean, does that tell us that in the long run we're talking about a russian when here or does that in your opinion. oh, i mean, we'd always been talking about a war of attrition that we've been hearing now for 2 years. i mean, it's, yeah, i mean, i think even, you know, if, even if i were, if instead of u. k. general, i probably wouldn't want to predict the outcome obviously. now, yes, russia does seem to be a prevailing um, you know, and of course, i think what russia would come to on that would be the west, essentially giving up on the crane. i mean, that's what they've been counting on. obviously from the beginning and trying to obviously to and you know, looked for quite some time is if the west might be giving up on ukraine or at least

certainly not prepared to step up to the plates and provide what's needed for do you think it's more likely natasha, that the west will give up on ukraine or that decision ping would give up on wasn't recruited uh, probably that the west would give up on the crane. and as well though, of course it depends. you know, i think china and, you know, trying to look soft to china. so if it stays, which way the wind is blowing, you know, it doesn't want to be shackled to colts as the same guys. so, you know, it could easily, if you look at the 12 point time they talked about, you know, economic reconstruction of ukraine, you know, post conflict reconstruction and so on. and so i'm showing it would be very happy to make sure it's in poll position to reap the dividends from you know, from the complaint. if i'm any post conflict, fine. yeah. that might imagine to abandon rusher if they needed to what, what do you say clyburn? i mean, this does rush,

i have to win for it for china to get what it wants. but i think i'd, i'd just like to echo bit what, what's in touch it says there on, if you look at the chinese perspective, china is, is very good at saying very vague things a bad way bad, bad. it's plans don't shopping the, the former chinese leader, he one said, you said about 1989 about the crack down and democracy demonstrators and the opprobrium and, and the tax on china that it felt and faced after that that the west always forgets . and there is this sort of sense in china and the way deals with things that if you just let things go long enough to the west, will eventually lose interesting. part of that has to do with it, with the structures that you have for your cycles or 5 your cycles in, in, in, in democracies for example. but they're, they're very good at sort of weighting things on. i think there's a sense that they, if they don't need to take a position on ukraine, why would they bother? because they're, they're very happily showing that they're, they're close to allies of, with, with russia without having to sign on anything or do anything. they just, you know,

it's, it's a, they've done a good position. what about these joint military exercises assignment in the beds written and asked the question of how is the best looking at the increased joint military exercises between these, these 2 countries? i mean, is it a win win for him? for china? again, i think it's, it is a win win for john on us and us, they say, but when, when for china, that means the china winds twice. and so it, it, it, it's doing, it's doing very well. it, it suits china. it gets to try it all kinds of new technology showcase some of the technology that it might eventually find its way into, into the russian miller tree. but what do you say, natasha? yeah, i mean, the minute tree exercises have, obviously been of a good way for china to learn from russia. obviously, syria was the fast to kind of major projection of russian power, military power for some time. and so that was a big interest to china. obviously, it wasn't on a scale. the same scale is ukraine, but still,

china was very interested in that. and so, you know, i think the chinese military has really been able to draw all a sudden lessons. i mean, i've also had that now china has been looking to land that has that she'd been looking though also interestingly of course, that control lessons from moving away from the middle traps, the sizes from what russia is doing or not doing, and in the war against ukraine and looking, all said, ukraine's performance, you know, which will give china a certain lessons may be about, you know, how a sense to believe we could power can actually in a flight back. i've got another question for you. natasha. another question coming in um, from game arena, writing or asking is this meeting between fortune and she a direct response to recent meetings that we've seen between japan and the united

states, for example. um, so i'm not sure about that. i mean, let's not forget that, you know, these so summits have been taking place on a very regular basis for the last, you know, couple of decades. so, so i, i'm not sure that it's necessarily a direct response to the next step. what do you think? it'd be, yeah, china to try his back yard again with jot with japan. right. i mean, i think definitely the us is trying to step up the profile of its relationships with japan inside korea and other neighbors in, in the region. and also to step up and in how it supports taiwan. but i, i don't know if it's, if it's prompting anything. i think one thing that, that, that's quite important to, to understand the relationship uh with she just having come back from visiting. yeah. serve you 25 years since after the nato bombing there. i'm sure the nato and that aspect of the western alliance is going to be quite honest, is going to be on their agenda. they're the,

except to of their questionnaire was they asked about these meetings and meet the fact that she jumping was just, it was just here in europe. and what did they bought? what message did he send to you or? well it's, it's kind of, you know, it's straight away. he meets the biggest enemy and in many, in, in, in many people's eyes of, of, of western europe. you know, it's, it's, your western europe is building this alliance of the crate on the 1st thing he does . within days of coming back from, from visiting your is, he meets, he meets, pretend unless he's bringing a message. i mean, it's a lot of speculation about what could be what they're discussing about at the moment, but to up to now this looks very much more like a show of strength, a show of alliance and what he did there, here in europe. was there anything during his visit met for russia for russian consumption? i mean, was it in a meeting in therapy or was it mean, you know, he was, you know, he had a one on one with macro on. they seemed like they were buddy buddy. but my chrome

didn't ask him, for example, the stop help stop the war in ukraine. i think the visit to europe is a bad was by creation divisions among the european allies and with i'm to highlight just how the lack of unity within the you. for example, on the visit to hungry on the visit to serbia, where break definitely pointed up at russia just as a show of support that it's, it's very much a question perspective. you know, when you, when viewed from the, from the russian and chinese perspective, it was a very different kind of business that was sort of lip service paid to this big market in the u. but in security terms, unimed political terms, the visit to the hungry, i know hundreds into you but, but it's still seen as being close to russia. i think that was much more of a message, sir. we had a question from diana val. car sale asking um how do we do we have that one? no, that's not and that's not, that's not the one of the chests. okay, we're gonna take this one here that just come in influence of climate change. we

have another question that is based on the comment by one of our viewers who are moving along with ice melting in northern russia. could that he's trying his entry to russia's arctic circle and what is the effect of the crisis in the red sea on tray? clifford well, i think certainly we spoke a bit. natasha mentioned earlier about about the east asian aspect of this. and a bad cloudy ball, stock, and about russian forces there. i think china is very interested in the melting of the polar ice caps because it will facilitate trade over the top of the world. it will make it a lot shorter. and there's a lot of countries bidding for, for improvements in there, and china is very much in there. and it would hope to do it either in the lions or at the expense of russia, but it wants to do it. so i think that's, that's one real they area where climate change is going to have a massive geopolitical impact. what, what is the tasha climate change in the bottom uprooting a yeah,

the serious obviously is key and has been touted by russia as a kind of solution to obviously especially china's issues around shipping and so on. it means it doesn't have to go through them like a straight. so you know, from convent energy security point of view. it obviously solves a lot of problems. i think that it's thing is um, you know, you need to have a lot of ice break because in order to be able to actually traverse that route. i mean, it's still not in the ice free for a very short time. so it couldn't be a complete panacea. um, well the, you know, we have seen a great to call gay on the lows and save it. that's for sure. yeah. protected the environment is it kept me top of the agenda, particularly when my boots. and i mean, he's keeping his economy going by selling lots of natural gas and oil to china right now. is it a yeah, i know,

it wouldn't really say it was toppling fits agenda to. um, you know, we got a question i wanted to get back to this question. i'm from diana val for sale. and i'll give this to you, clifford. and she said, brent, why wasn't booting? arrested? when he arrived in china, what was the order that was issued by the international court just as well as an enforced well, um, but that was never gonna happen. china, china doesn't recognize the court. and that's the reason, right? yeah. but it was never was never even going to be on the agenda. i mean, he did pretty much um, natasha. we'd be able to answer this better in some ways. but, but there's very few places you can go right now in beijing is one of them. i mean, this is the 2nd business and, and she also went there last year. and also at that meeting in, in, in, in beijing last year she took, pretend aside and said we are making changes here together that have not been seen for a 100 years. you know, this is a really, in many ways, you know, it's, again,

a question perspective, this is the, this is quite major. this, this, this alliance long term, we don't know, but right now it's extremely and the reason that this visits taking place right now is that their market, what, 75 years of diplomatic relations, right? yeah. i mean that the, the, the russian embassy and in beijing is a norm us. it was one of the biggest embassy in the world and they do have a lengthy, such a lengthy connections with each other. very complicated. occasionally they were bitter enemies but but, but it's still a very, it's a very close relationship. natasha, what do you say about the fact that you provided me food and if he wants to leave the country, which he rarely does, but if he wants to, i mean his options are fairly limited, aren't they or uh yeah. fail. um, obviously there are a number of countries which are not policy to um, to the international criminal corpse. right. um including the s best um well us um signed the statute. um so um, but yeah,

um you're right in the theory. he does, he already rides the lives they can. maybe flight of washington is there. he probably will. you know, and trump, that's exactly, he can try and scrub. that's exactly right we've, we've got another question coming in here on the topics these military exercises. and simon and me asking, how is the west of looking at the increased joint military exercises between the 2 countries? a, clifford what i think it'd be watching does the for, for signs that, that there's going to be closer cooperation at the moment. the question is, how much support is coming from russia is coming from china for, for russia's war and ukraine. and whether that will be stepped up to, to, to include much more obvious military support than, than currently exist at the moment it's, it's um, secondary support. but i think that's how they're going to be looking. they're going to be looking to see what all this means. matthew is sending

a question. i'm just trying to run the risk of being sanctioned by the west as they continue to help russia evade sanctions. well, i think this is, this is one area where she has to play it quite cautiously. again, as we said they're, they're very good at playing things cautiously and i'm letting things right and not taking a position either way. why? of giving tacit approval say to russia, but it is an area, it's already having difficulty with the export of micro chips in the us and another technology that kind of jewel use for that to help support russia. and so i changes warren beijing about this, haven't they? yeah, and it, and then mccaul said during the french visit that the china had said that it wouldn't do as button again. but all of that was one remark that seemed to just about phrase after he was added, i think of, of course he'd say that so they are, it is something they do have to be careful of by bus. i think playing the longer game at the moment or seeing a lot of evidence for example, have come of them. you've got the 2nd resources. there's ways of getting in through

the united arab emirates or through.