to do musicians who lives in the savannah office saw a film about the sounds of power and inspiring story about surviving music under the swastika stuffs may 25th on dw, the chief prosecutor at the international criminal court has said he seeking arrest warrants for his riley leaders including prime minister and method yahoo comes out of the war in gaza. is rarely politicians across the spectrum of condemned to move to prosecute is also applied to warrants for key leaders of how much widely designated a terrorist organizations. i guess this week from kind of even dennis ross form, especially the system to president barrenca bama and for more than 12 years a key plant and shaping us policy in the middle east. he's not optimistic about what he sees now. i can tell you this is worse between israelis and palestinians,

and at any point on which i've worked on this issue, including during the 2nd intifada, b i. c, c's announcement comes with a time. what is ralph's human rights record is on the minute scrutiny. with investigations by major media outlets, it's a violence by jewish settlers kind of a palestinian state ever and much from so much conflict on page. dennis ross, welcome to complex on. good to be with you. let's start with the announcement from the chief prosecutor at the international criminal court. arrest warrants have never been sold before for his reading, and it isn't as a storm of protests not only from those names, but from across all political factions and israel, waterford. do think that this will have on israel's conduct of the more if the warrants are approved by pre trial judges. i don't think it will have a positive effect. i think it creates in the minds of most as rarely is across the

political spectrum. that a moral equivalence is being established between those who came in with the express purpose of deliberately killing innocence, a kid having people as young as 9 months old, a rating uh, just engaging in the unspeakable violence brutality. i had made a very deliberate determined way. uh and your greeting, in the sense you're saying, you're treating them and the same as your effectively treating leaders of a state who are responding to this kind of a saw a, there certainly are issues that i think the prosecution is raising about the way the israelites have inducted the war, but most of the writers will see this as a, as creating a moral equivalence where there is no, it's not. and i, the absence of that, i think, with, in terms of us as rarely, it will be,

that they need to, they need to prosecute the war and, and try to ensure that they defeated a mazda in a way. because in the sense they're going to fear that and then no circumstances will ever be seen as being justified in terms of defending themselves against these kinds of attacks. whether that's a correct perception should exist or not. that is a perception i'm afraid will exist here. to be fair to the prosecutor here, he didn't suggest there was any moral equivalence on the country the, the way that it's being explained by him and by as officials is that if evidence is brought to him, problem of facia evidence is brought to him of crimes committed on both sides of a conflict. he has a duty to act and to pursue that evidence. and this is one way in which he's doing it by seeking arrest warrants for those who have been named. what other choice did he actually have?

but i think there is an excellent question here in terms of timing goes, it was an expectation he was going to visit israel and had discussions prior to coming out with this. and obviously he did not do that. but it does strike me that it might have been again, just from a practical pragmatic standpoint. it might have made more sense to be here in advance before he issued me. but obviously you chose not to do that. there's the penalty as it is, i have to say is this serious panel? i think the problem, however, is i'm suggesting is by not having come here before releasing this. i think it contributed to the kind of very broad reaction. you have people who are extremely critical of prime minister netanyahu. we're also quite critical of this. so a little bit more could have been done to the set the stage, i suspect. but we are, we are, if these very serious jobs use

a not to be tested by the i c. c. where else would they be heard? a, again, it's not, it's not clear, but i think there's a, there's a larger issue here that although be kept in mind. and that is when you fight an enemy that deliberately uses its civilian population, not just as a shield that really is a hostage, or you're putting a position where, what are the choices you have not to go after them given what is going to be this way and consequence, and therefore faces again or go after them. and unfortunately there is it going to be as being consequences out. i will grab one of the things that these really should have done. i've made an argument with this with the very beginning of the war. they should have been much more forthcoming with humanitarian assistance. they should have gone out of their way to demonstrate this was an effort to and then

imperative to to see a mouse and not to punish the pals to and to live in god. i had israel did not act in that way and it made it easier for those to portray what they're doing in a way that is us outside of what outside the bounds of acceptability. what is, again, the reality is israel was faced with a very cruel dilemma. you have an enemy, the care is not one, wait for the wellbeing of its own public is quite ready to expose them. doesn't mind visual because a lot of allison in fact seems to relish that prospect. but this is what you, what do you seem to be outlined is that this is a water shed moment for international justice? isn't that i really do think there's a question here about how we, we may have to redefine international humanitarian law. i mean, the other one and you still have an obligation to try to minimize the casualties of

2 civilians, noncombatants, that's an obligation that shouldn't change. but how the tactics you can use, how you go about doing that. how do you agree? and a clear distinction between those who are using your windshield as a deliberate, tactful, and those who have to contend with that. i do think this, this is an issue that we're long overdue, trying to come to grips with how we can better decide unit after that. you read it during law, given these guides of non state actors and given their, the tactics that they employed, whatever system. but uh, you want to work towards, or you think the, the international community should what towards the, to provide some kind of justice in situations like this. we're not going to be able to live in a world where accountability is, was the enemy's not friends, isn't that the question? does that is forcing everyone to consider? it says, well, i think it is, it least in part,

but i don't think it's coming to grips was the question i've been posing, which is, what is a legitimate strategy for trying to root out the enemy a non state act or is it seems you're going to have to have internet speed manager in law, it can't simply be one where it says ok you, you're entitled to strike back, but you have to minimize civilian casualties. what if it turns out that the choices for, for minimizing civilian casualties is quite limited. i mean, there is something else that could have been done. something else it could have been done is a, a situation like this, maybe international humanitarian law. should say, there needs to be a period. uh there needs to be areas where people can be evacuated. so they're not, as they're not as shields. i mean what separates, for example, as the united states approach illusion is that the, the people who lived in felicia were actually allowed to leave me

a rock in iraq in iraq. yes, they were allowed to leave, they could, they could leave the city. the problem here and guys are good, so small, they're not allowed to leave. but other than what one finds in every war zone, is it people leave it look at syria or about 5 and a half 1000000 people. less fled syria. it was a simple thing to do, but 5, it happening and people let's, let's serious in gaza. the people are not allowed to leave. so one of the, i think one of the challenges for international measuring law is to be able to come up with if you're trying to predict the wellbeing of civilians, which is a, it's not just a moral imperative. of course, it's a moral imperative. it should be a political imperative as well. but they, what do you think you have to come up with? it is strategies for evacuation that the international community can facilitate. as a way of ensuring that if awards big slot against those who are using human chills,

it leasing and asking community is doing everything. it can not just in terms of providing you manage right assistance, but in terms of getting them out of harm's way. and it tells me being help the situation that has it by the fact that some of the reporting about is rails behavior by the administration in the states has been contradictory on may the 10th the state, the bottom and wrote to congress with its most detailed assessment of as well as conduct and it concluded that as well had most likely violated international standards in failing to protect civilians in gaza. but setting up the same time, it is not found specific instances that would justify coughing, military aid. the department was immediately accused of a fudge democratic senator chris were on the hall and told reporters, if this conduct complies with international standards, then god help us. oh, he hasn't point, doesn't the well, he does, but i guess i keep coming back to the issue that ass on standards. international

standards have not adjusted to a reality where you have an enemy to use as human shoes. so we end up judging the actor was been attack as a, then try to root out those who are using human shields. but how do you explain the apparent contradictions in the state, the bottom, and report on the one hand, it includes the contents of both action and action by as well, have slowed the flow of age and the gaza. but on the other, it says we don't currently assess these rarely government is prohibiting or otherwise restricting the transport or delivery of us humanitarian assistance into the. in other words, slowing, the 8 flow is not restricting it. of course it is. you guys think what you will, you have is that you have really, i think you're raising 2 different kinds of issues. one issue has to do with the use of weapons. that's where you were 1st raising. now the 2nd thing you're raising is the issue of the permission of humanitarian assistance to go in,

in the quantities that it should have been remitted on the farm. or i think with the state department was finding was that they were looking at the totality of the, of the people, the numbers of people killed and said, almost by definition we dropped inclusion that this must have been done. force must have been done in a way inconsistent with international manager a lot. on the other hand, we don't have specific instances of what that was done. i can understand that too. well, the other issue ranging about a very professionally, the provision of international humanitarian assistance. i share that view, the fact that it is not popular here with these really body politics who have suffered greatly from october 7th and who every day see what a mouse is doing by holding it hostage is increasing numbers of them, no longer being alive. and their body politic here is not feeling very sympathetic

to the garden population who they see somehow being in league with i'm us. my own view is the they got in the population is a victim of loss, not only with em us. and the israel's approach to the war needed to separate from us from the population of doesn't. let's talk about the state of us as well. relations of a now as bad as you've known it during the course of your career. i think it's, we're certainly at a low point, but i wonder how much it's us israel and it's just the leadership. i do think that there is a norm as restoration with prime minister netanyahu. i don't think that extends necessarily to all of riley's and not necessarily even to everyone in the, in the current government. but i do think there is growing frustration with him present biden's always had a,

a good relationship with him. i think it's become very frustrated for a variety of reasons. one is that a number of occasions by minister and that's and he always made promises to him and not to fill those promises. and i think that is contributed greatly to the frustration that, that he feels, you know, do i think this is something that can be overcome, at least between us and intro. yes, because i don't see this necessarily is ecstatic of the 2 countries. right now. i think there's a problem between the 2 leaderships. we'll have to see how that plays out on the limiting of weapons supplies. to israel, you quoted a mistake. what the administration of done saying it took all the pressure off the how mosley the yeah, hoss and why i'm pressure on him was the key to a hostage deal. but president biden is not someone who's old, but accused is riley's of war crimes by saying they've been bombing indiscriminately if he goes on giving them those same american bombs to continue that indiscriminate bombing. it makes him look weak both of that and complicit.

well i think, yeah, you can, i think you can kind of present this over you choose to present at the the fact is i think he's trying to strike a balance. he wants an outcome where i'm us, who not only committed terrible atrocities on october 7th, but continues to do it with the way it, it brutalizes, the hostages in it holes. there's a almost seems to be kind of international and difference do what a mazda is doing to the hostage. because obviously there's not that a different tier and is, are over for all of families. their life was rolling on october 7th. and the case of a president binding the watch to be sure the outcome is an outcome where i'm also no longer in control of does it. whereas it can no longer be a platform where attacks against israel. and he's trying to strike a balance between how do you achieve that objective and at the same time,

conduct of the war in a way that tries to minimize the level of damage and destruction dinah to your house and you live in god. it's a very hard water, very hard balance and strikes. one can, one can try to be pure in one direction or the other, but then you're not going to achieve what is the most important object and i don't think they, it's very important to find a way to end this war. let's, this war also needs to end in a way where a mouse is not in a position, whereas any possibility of, of grouping. another reason surely for withholding weapons is put to as well is that american tax pass of funding that is really offensive, but the majority of them now appear to be again, some of the latest polls show 55 percent of americans against 36 percent who support israel conduct of the war. don't you think that the prospect is pretty worrying for the buy but ministrations 6 months away from a presidential election? is that one of their calculations?

i, i'm sure all of the things being a little, you're the brother united states, you're in an election year. this is an issue that almost by definition is not how whole. so you would undoubtedly liked to see this over as soon as possible. and while and yet at same time while the present watched is over as soon as possible, he doesn't one out of where somehow a boss is able to recruit and wrist out. so it is, this is not the last time we'll see. it is a mouse. has shown not the slightest bit of interest in developing gaza, not the slightest bit of interest in do and providing well the for the well being. that was on top of the bill for miles of tiles under ground. all the materials that didn't used and then building those tunnels, all the materials that used in building a military industrial base underground. all that could have been used on the service uh to the advanced guys and the wellbeing of the people there. it did not

of that, and if it had a chance to do this all over again, so you understand, of course, the president watson's over it will be much better for the president, especially in election year if this was no longer an issue. but he doesn't want, you know, we're in a way where i'm us can do this again or can reconstitute itself and subject everybody, palestinians that is really the light to another round like this. this is also a time when israel is human rights record is being under some of the most intense scrutiny, not least because of multiple cases of set, the violence against palestinians in the west bank. how concerned are you again, that despite repeated international warnings about that very little is being done to cub it as well? i think one of the challenge is again, you with this is riley government. you have a couple, a very extreme minister is why i'm, who is the minister of national security spending of the or

a and he often times looks like you trends of line di, what extreme is settlers do? israel presents itself as a rule of law and it has to act that way. and with many of the extreme is settlers, including those right now are trying to blot deliveries of assistance to vows that the law needs to be enforced on them. there needs to be more demonstration of that . and if there isn't, the administration is right to single out and sanction some of those individuals a year long investigation by the new york times published in recent days. crimes to reveal how fall and factions inside the settling movement have been protected and sometimes affected by the israeli government. and now pose of grace tried to palestinians in the occupied territories. we found the time set a government shaken by an internal war, burying reports, commissioned neutering investigations that assign silencing whistle blow as some of those senior officials. did you know about this? i did not. does it any of it?

surprise you? over the years, i've always had a sense that there was a sound protection. one of the things that always was troubling is that it was very hard to ever find the exact expenditures also. and then of browse as if the age where the government knew. if it was exposed by would actually produce a reaction with it is. so i'm not surprised at one level at the scope of it. i have to say is surprising. mr. ross on the ground and gaza, a heavy fighting around the southern city of rough uh, despite the strongest possible warnings from the us. houses ro stop listening to the white house. the by the administration said multiple times, it wanted to see a credible plan for safe guarding civilians. if the rafa offensive went ahead, by may the 15th, at least it was still saying it hasn't seemed such

a plan. is there any way of red line which in the which of the no circumstances israel would be allowed to cross by the administration? i think that the president has made it clear that if they go into a rough, a city that is a red line that's been cross without the incredible evacuation plan, which colorado is, that would be consequences. that's right. well, there israel is operating all around or off of and not within raffle city now. and what right now, but 800000 people actually have this is still the probably the other 5 or 6 areas that were there. so they're still not in the city. i think for the administration, if they were to go into the city, there wouldn't be consequences either to present the present vine or someone who what he says something you, dentist a minute. so i suspect. yeah, and that's why the reason i suspect these really is having not gone in is because that is something that they understand is going to trigger a response and,

and with a price that they probably don't want to pay. these rarely prime minister has made it clear that the prize of a palestinian state is not on offer to the power. steering is particularly after what have mazda has done. is that any way but a palestinian state come in your view in much from all this conflict? well, not in the near term. best of all, the policies are divided between the west bank and gaza. you're gonna have to politically re unified them. look, i my own view is the policy and people have a right to self determination. and whether that's a state they choose, that's and state. or there's some kind of confederation that should be their choice . but by the same token, right, with rights come responsibilities. when we talked about of housing state, we can't advertising states, it's going to be led by i'm us. so that's certainly not

a 2 state solution that some guarantees were continually war. it can't be of housing state that becomes a member of the actions of resistance. what i call the access of misery being aligned with iran. that's also a garrett, that's the, that's a guarantee against and state. i can't be of housing state that doesn't have institution, so it'd be a failed state. so you need, you need to great rights and responsibilities. i would like to see some benchmarks created. some milestones created all with the, all under the rubric that allison and have a state in the making. and they have to fulfill their responsibilities to be able to achieve their rights. now obviously, the same time that you're creating that item set of standards or milestone or obligations under the housing side. you have to impose some responsibilities on this very side, including, among other things they cannot after on the ground in the west bank in a way that makes it impossible to have her policy in the state. but everything i've

just said, this is not something you can produce overnight. we have to start by having both sides even begin to cooperate in the functional way. again, we're at a very low ever you asked me about was this is difficult. the type of i've ever seen in terms of us and regular relations. i can tell you this is worse between israelis and palestinians. and at any point on which i worked on this issue, including during the 2nd intifada. so we have to get back some kind of a baseline, so we can move from there and move in a direction of a piece becoming possible. right now we're not dealing with a conflict is seen in, in political time, we're saying we're public, that's almost seeing an excess detriment terms. and we're going to have to get back to creating a such a possibility. yeah. and then we're quite a ways from that. god just raised with you briefly, the desk and the helicopter accidents of the radium president, right? you see any sign of an opportunity or

a danger emerging from this accident? i don't think it changes things very much. i mean, it creates and certainly within a rad. but the supreme later, i'm an a, as a decision maker, right? usually was not the decision maker. he might be the decision implementer, but it wasn't the decision makers like yes it is. and that scream later will emphasize the importance of people participating in the election because he likes to portray that as being an indication of legitimacy. the fact it turn out to him. so small right now is an indication about uranium public really feels about is why my rebuttal again the re jane. but i think in the near term, their focus will be much more on trying to work out the selection, trying to maximize the numbers of people vote and much less adventures on the outside as well. since been good to have your own comfort zone. thank you very much indeed for your time. thank you. a bit of a wood or the

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the this is dw news lie from maryland is rolled analysis. the decision by spain, ireland, in no way to recognize a palestinian state prime minister benjamin netanyahu says the announcement amounts to rewarding terrorism. the 3 european leaders say they'll be no peace in the region without it. also in the program. somebody elections in the u. k. british prime it is to richie soon, i can make the call despises conservative pausing training badly in the polls. and french president emmanuel mccall arrive.