the business is honest leo media and lots, just green washing. what's now the valuable thing has been open media aggressive and ukraine for more than 2 years now . but as far as concourse is not confined to you, he's also clearly exhibiting influence on other fama. so if you have states as well, for instance, in georgia and model of georgia, has foster contribution legislation that labels non governmental organizations as foreign agents leading to be so heavy put in the legislation of being regarded as a copy of a similar russian loan and model of all which is due to void presidential elections and a referendum on joining the

e. u. later this year. russia is being accused of targeting the public space by spreading this information. i mean, my us secretary of state anthony blinking is considering allowing ukraine to use american veterans on russian territory. so down to the point we are discussing instructions about the for, into, in spreading from ukraine to georgia and model the hello and welcome to, to the point on each of how do you sign in here in berlin and today, my guess us gustavo, dress a, he is a senior policy fellow on military expert with the europe and council on foreign relations, e. c. f r. i stuffy off balkan bun. she is on a list for eastern europe, the german council on board. and really she is d g a. be joining us via

skype from parcel we have, danny shows she is you made the reporter at the w a very well and welcome to you all good stuff. um, the german foreign minister was in ukraine recently and she said that the situation has worse than drastically. now we know she have planned to go to hockey if she could not because of security reasons. how is the situation now in ukraine as being more than 2 years? well, ukraine is other very difficult time in small. um, it has been difficult to really be difficult. a part of that was the delay in 8, both from europe and us. it's mildly known that the us relate, but also european. i'm a nation initiatives the, the late the problem is the ukraine on forces hot lost a lot of personal because of this delayed losing soldiers means losing skills,

losing people that have experience losing people that have a noise and what they're doing. it's very hard to retrain people to something um, so that is something that has damage their come with power quite considerably. the 2nd thing is that the russian army has compared to with the russian army. that housing waited in 2020 to grow and to roughly twice the size in terms of man, even more. but in terms of material takes ro, twice the size of the ukraine inside. you have not even the losses replaced by wisdom equipment. the last is that of course, since 2022 are also you have a large problem off. they fucked. the old solicit sense of equipment. you can find i'm a nation full, particularly of car set. so 1st the air, me,

science defense me. so i was by that effects old, a lot of ukraine in artillery tank, forest making eyes vehicles where you don't get spare parts or you don't get, i'm a nation for it. and that has led to ukraine's practical combat power decreasing. and russian compet though increasing and russian now with the some of offensive trying to make gains on that for you. cream is clearly not in a good spot on associate technically sell excuse 5 year term, as president ended on the 28th of me. but of course, he would continue being the president because of martial law. now his critique said that this is non constitutional. how of people looking at this and you claim, i mean it's a fair question and if has been discussed a lot, especially last year and do the critique, most of it comes from russia, russian allies. it, there was also an idea lunch by the us last year,

but it was quickly dismissed as well. and the, your partner's support inquiry and it's not causing collections that i'm multiple reasons why elections would not be appropriate to the current time. for us default, your credit is not able to ensure a safe and fair and secure elections more than 20 percent of your current territories occupied at the moment. therefore, people cannot vote in the standard taurus. it would be very difficult to insure the people on the control line i able to vote due to increased weight has as well increased security concerns. then you credit has around 8000000 references a all around the world. ensuring their presence and devoting stations would be as well, very complicated. and this is not just sticking with the from night financial concerns . where would the money come from? for elections instead of it has made it very clear that the mind coming from military equipment and for continuing the work cannot be use to for elections. and additionally, a group of opposition passed to so,

so agree that the elections would not be now appropriate. because this would also mean electro competition. it would mean the sources file. all the efforts with cars should go for the war. and i have to say, i mean, they're also constitutionally pen would need to change this constitution to hold elections. but at the same time also, it would be important. it's not to do go not to have elections at the moment. so we have precedence where the come to can continue a dissertation before before some sort of a piece comes in place. and the last november around is you percent of people in ukraine supported that the idea of the way to improve the elections. so of course it is difficult, extremely difficult to hold elections at this point because of practical reasons. the or the reason i ask you this question is because since the beginning of the war, we're talking about democracy versus an authoritative team. and now if someone's continues to be the president without being elected again, would that not fuse both ends of propaganda machine as you said it in the beginning

also that the predict mostly comes from russia. i mean, what, we will not for the, for to the stuff i've done that isn't, you know, i think we should not look at what russian propaganda is coming with. you know, we have the 2 mentors and why ukraine can know told elections. and also i believe us as you work in partners putting the pressure on your plan would not be right just at the moment due to the reasons i mentioned. and i mean, i think, sure what can be done is to dismiss this arguments between the state where we know how the president was elected in russell a racist and democrats or concerns about your grade. i think it was, i've been taking the students, this is also, i don't know. what does it say about us and our democracy? i was a mind odd. none of the opposition parties wants to run against the president who is commander in chief in the war situation. because if you start to criticize the

president and then also for you trained a lot of what looking into for and going into the wall. of course, there are some of the things that after the war can be politicized. but now you would you comment? you cons have a really good debate about all this stuff. so in, so the old content, those old possible content as those politicians will think they might challenge sled ski at a later point. no one wants that this will come off to the wall because now they, they would just lose out and, and do more harm to them and their country then. and that the 1st, the train from all the situation was by you have and no position that wants to run their election against a, a sitting president me. i mean, in belarus, of course they also say she wants drum, a fair election against the states and president of it. but this, this is totally different than ukraine insights. we should, we should also talk to the opposition and, and, and take them seriously on that. right. let's go to the,

tell you quickly. she's been waiting for us patiently. time for your patients day. now, ever since the beginning of the war, that being concerns that ukraine would not be lost, country read, put in, would try to have instruments. and there been talks about countries like mando. now, dennis, just how one of the is a country like mazda, which does not even share border with russia to fulton's encroachment. so, there been concerns much longer than since the beginning of rushes were on your brain. and that's because putting ensures that mold over worries about this kind of thing. you know, it, it has a piece of territory trans nature, which is about 4000 square kilometers. and about 400000 people, which has remained loyal to moscow since the soviet union crumbled. so for more than 30 years, and this is a tiny area, um, sometimes even asks for protection. now remember when it says that he needs to protect russian speakers,

this is the kind of language that we heard before he and dated don boss in 2014 and to cry. mia? he said these kind of things again in 2022. before he went into ukraine, it's sort of language that people in the countries near to russia understand that this could signal that putting wants to go into this territory. he would absolutely love to create a land core door between russia and trends me straight. because as you mentioned, he doesn't have a border with mold over, but this is something that the country has has always lived with since a, since it's re independence. and that's why the pro e u president. my assign do, has very much strength and ties with brussels. now, minova is neutral by constitution. so there's not a lot of talk about joining nato, of course. but she just this week signed a defense agreement with the european union and, and you'd also have done this earlier, bilaterally with france. and this is going to help security cooperation with the european union in areas like cyber security. uh, uh, counter terrorism. um,

even border management, so this is something that will go but has always known as vulnerable. and it's doing what it's can in this uh, you know, very uh, very vulnerable, a neighborhood to, to strengthen itself to become more resilient. thanks, jerry. now, mazda about does not shadow border with joshua, but george, out of the country, has approved a contribution to the farm agent law that has spot weeks of moscow this under the new law. so it was a psyche, organizations, and media that receive more than 20 percent of their revenues from abroad. really be obliged to register as organizations subbing the interest off of form and follow people into please are continuing to protest without rest. even after the georgian parliament passed the controversial law, classifying certain organizations as for an agent's opponents. so calling the new regulation russian law from now on, according to russian president,

n g o's and independent media must disclose their financial support from abroad. the here today, pete's as the basic one of the research. so it's both researchers, one of the no government organizations, organization and nowadays to day up the author of the important urgent care i'm sending here the following good debates about the law is revealing the division in georgia and society. young people especially are afraid of pollutants growing influence and that their country might turn away from the west. well, george and it be the next day to fall back into russia. sphere of influence on the stuff you invited georgia, feel the need to bring and such an anti democratic though this to say in person

christian because everyone asks this to know. and in fact, george and jim didn't have to do it. they could have preserved the power without bringing in this law. and i would say that is really a fear coming from the leadership of the part of the day. i losing the power at this law. whether it's labeled the suppression law and very much inspired by russian legislation doesn't come on. russian dumont, it's really comes from the judge and the district from georgia. dream in the attempt to preserve the power over the country and the fewest where the desk and the upcoming elections, georgia judge and jim was not to get the majority to am. however, i mean, i believe that the part to under estimated charge in population. and this is not so depressive resume, this is the come to full of people who want to present the democracy and people will be on the street. so i, i, i think it was really an under estimation from the,

from the ruling 5 to they have been in power already for quite a long time. and their support has been declining of over the past years. and talked to him during the specific does a very corrupt power to that, that trying to maintain the grief on the power and really sliding georgia in to look up the project and undemocratic vision. but that people that isn't in the content. and i think this was maybe i, it's very hard to say which was the expectation from the judge and dream. and what was the motivation behind this because they could have, they have been getting collections before. so i think that could have been of a tool supply to maintain the power. and to me this step is also shows that they at the to good to for, for less than to be on this to the georgians dream. i, i honestly, i mean, i see it's more optimistic, but i really thing that to georgia and population a little bit stronger than this. let's look at the effects of crossing this legislation. well, it's not just the process of getting the

e. u has one that the adoption of the slogan compo, chances of joining the blog. georgia has gone to the states, the status at the moment. and then you also have usa saying that georgia will become an ad was read or other than a partner. how is the georgian government reacting to all of this? and you also have nato. i should point out. also speaking out against this, and georgia has traditionally very much wanted to become a member of nato. so you really got all the major organizations um, plus the us putting pressure on, on uh the georgia dream basically, but it has seemed to backfire so far. you know, they haven't back down on this. and in fact, they're saying, well, look at all the undue influence that for, and the, you know, for an asters want to put on georgia. this is why we need this rule. so it really hasn't worked so far. of course the law has not been implemented yet. so that there's still time perhaps for these kind of levers to work, but at the moment they don't show any sign of backing down. at the same time you,

you asked about about you membership and they have not also backed away from wanting to become a member of the european union. so that may be where the pressure can still be applied at the same time. the use is so angry about this, but it's talking about rolling back some of the privileges that georgia has had, like visa, free travel, for example. and there are some countries that are saying there shouldn't be sanctions put on georgia. so this is really a long way from the joy where the country was, you know, introduced as a candidate and an e. foreign ministers are going to talk about this next week. just clearly backfiling talking of you. gustavo, now you likes to be seen as this big family that has, that was obedience. and it wants to include as many countries as possible. but by doing so isn't you weakening and so now we have the examples of slovakia. we have the example of hungry, where we realize that it did become counter productive. and now it's not just

georgia, e was also thinking about serbia, about montenegro, about of a man. what do you make of it? was the thing is most enlargement. uh, the or a large one for say the problem is, you need to be tough on the democratic style, the freedom of press independence of the judiciary. because if you let them slide on, not what's happened in hungary, then this opens up for this kind of clause, the author retiree and rule then destroys a policy making a new uh and, and that is why, for example, on georgia, of course, the always no strict uh uh, it's not a, a just sort of issue of taste, but the problem is the georgia dream has been criticized for states capture for rolling back traditional reform for um, for nepotism uh for hindering the fight against corruption over

the past years. um and um, basically now all these grievances break into the open monday when they try to call tail or criminalize those organizations that still report on, on all these misleads. and that is, that is of course the issue where you can say no, if you, if you're going down that road um the, the, the door to the us coast. on the other hand, we see other countries that knock on the used doors that have made remarkable progress on this and that have reformed and you see country side the you that have done all those they, i'm just like, i'm 3 that actually have, you know, inactive was like this and kicked out of the influence positive influence from other countries. so george also sees that example and if you have a critical or so. so the issue inside and outside is to be more principle list

about democratic values and, and basic freedoms. and that, that is your respective of accession and not. um, it is, it is a shame that our article 7 procedures are so cumbersome. and then now of course that hungary, fines allies to protect itself within to you. um. but on the other end, if you were, for example, look at you freight on the progress of ukrainian reforms over the years. they rightfully knock on the door and say, look, guys view, i mean, the all bets on democratic stones is much better than hunger itself. why, why shouldn't a so i would, i would separate the issue of enlargement. um uh with that is it just to move her benefit as i think goes to the environment has become part of the transactional and hungry is trying to obtain deal so no, no, to block succession. and i also think it would be the same with georgia hungry is loved being very strongly for georgia in terms of the york session. and this can be

used to know to offer now accessing talks for your client and we'll devise a bargain talking. and i think here it's really important what was that was how much of the previously that you use to maintain. so it's norms and values and this very transactional environment that's relevant going and all of the very poisoned offer. i mean, the hunger is one serbia and then it won't georgia in because of their damage the deficit. sunday, they're not the only ones the austrians also pushing for. so it'd be a because survey on, on the, which would be a role block for the you to be strict on financial controls on fight against this, by a nice on russian influence on corruption laws. the whole, the new prosecute to reserve is on financial tribes. that is a horace scenario for victor oil. but it also on the minds the kind of usually the policy making in the n o a practice law. and they want to have a rescue against that on the see the georgia dream or what judge are or,

and unreformed balls. and you are are a kind of risk to service and allies to, to dilute onto corruption policies within you. uh so, so, so again, yeah it's, it is about democratic standards and they should govern who we take in that, who not. right it's, it's a, it's a long debate about what's happening into you, but let's come back to ukraine because got it cleared up. is that put in maybe getting the upper hand in ukraine losely due to the rest in adequate support? analysts say ukraine hasn't faced such a serial mandatory challenge since the early days of the war. the situation has prompted a new plan that outlined specific steps for ukraine's membership in nato as early as july 2028. the paper suggests that ukraine could become a member of the western military alliance by 2028 regardless of whether the war has ended or not. in the meantime, allied countries are called on to increase their aid to 0.25 percent of their g. d

. p. error defense for western ukrainian border regions could also be managed from new tow territory and until the ukraine joins and 8 hope all types of conventional weapons could be supplied the stipulation that they not be used against targets and russia should be dropped. what are the chances of this new draft paper being implemented during the 28th? isn't that too late? that was from a position of booker as 2008. it's much delight, but the problem is now the boys already there. um, well looking at sweden and finland on how difficult task force i think it is a bit loose if to propose exec dates for membership because this is an negotiation process amongst the $32.00 allied countries. and that will be difficult with the

respect of some countries on the other hand, or you see a huge inconsistency in policies that especially looking back at the building is last year. when you're trained, talk to once at a, at least, a political commitment to an invitation. if conditions arise, then that those countries who are either formally or informally in favor of a negotiated settlement with russia do not support or are very hesitant on ukraine's nature membership. because if you have a kind of stall, made the agreement, we have these in the past and none of them work. neither means one norman school nor any other agreement. if you want to have the war really to end a, you need a security net for your brain. so using the most goal, not any further, and that would be natural membership,

the most practical and the most actually effective would be need to membership. so here, the worst is also the inconsistent. and of course this paper pokes into, into the political inconsistency. we have 2 minutes left, that e mail. we know that russia is military, has big andrias involving tactical nuclear weapons. really that have an effect on this decision on this proposal. rather, it didn't rush. it has, has nuclear tests, you know, nuclear exercises. we should say all the time. the important thing is that nato consistently says that they have not seen russia making a true change in its, its military pastor when it comes to nuclear weapons. and that way, that's what would be the key for, for real concern about whether russia intended to use nuclear weapons put and has threatened it many times and has not made those moves that would indicate to the alliance. but it needed to really worry about a russian nuclear attack. thank you. on

a separate last question. now you're clearly seeing here, there are 2 different strategies. does this military method and ukraine? there's a non military methods, hybrid metro's as they're called in other countries. georgia, armando, which strategy according to you, is working better for preparing everything. so when it's not a comparison, that's the issue about to show all of the stuff that this comes together. and this is what to listen to tear, which is not the corner of the minnesota text by the hybrid to text, including in the yukon interest and then the candidates which are the same as a package that i put in is having as a strategy together. that's all the time we have. what do you think about that which strategy is working better? help with that? if you're watching us on youtube to let us know your thoughts, be reading your comments. thanks for watching. the

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. this is dw news y, but from berlin, a land slide in the middle of the night in scores our fear, the dead in top on new guinea. dozens of homes and remote villages were flattened with families buried by morning. the damage was clear. the death toll still climbing, also coming up. the white house rolls out the red carpet for the president of kenya and announces an upgrade in diplomatic relations. plus a look at the impact of artificial intelligence and deep face on india is a 6 week long election. it's a window into what might be in other upcoming verbs around the world.