id discovered new adventures and 360 degrees and explore fascinating. both. heritage dw world heritage $360.00 now is europe on the verge of a major shift? well, supporters of vladimir putin and friends of china soon have more power in the european parliament. according to polls, a head of the european elections, right wing populous nationalists are attracting more voters. but europe so far right is also seeing divisions between the alternative for germany, a, f d, and the french national rally party, around some of the independent out stream. do you voters want the union to be? what alliances are being forged? pulls it off on that line. conservative president of the commission is openly courting the votes of the italian head of government. george, i'm alone each and her ultra arrives so that they lead the thought young. on to

a point we ask europe's far act, attempting partners working service the welcome to this week's to the point. i'm how you get us. it's good to have you with us and let's meet 2 days guests that he lives now is a new berlin correspondent for germany's thoughts and focus specialized in east german politics and the f. d party, which i like to now is dw news chief political editor. and book book a is a freelance journalist he has previously worked as a correspondent in paris and brussels solve. you're welcome. thank you for being with us. and i'd like to start with you book and to all of europe, seeing a shift towards the riots, even countries that have a tradition of liberal politics like sweden or than other ones, are seeing extreme right wing politicians and their government is what the

traditional parties do wrong, what it seems that the traditional parties did not attend the needs of the preoccupation of the citizens. like the question of migration, i mean that the flows come that this some countries like italy agrees which were just overflowing due to the dublin agreement that used to rain in the yeah, your opinion. secondly, i think that's just the inside thing, which we see in many of the governments, for instance, in germany, a dollar, a famous coalition between liberals, queens and social democrats is leading to the point that the people just get desperate. they don't want the people to fight at the top that govern the bodies to fight, but to act and we have inflation. we have pandemic, we have the war and ukraine. and these are needs that really people are looking for direction for a strong hand. and this is why we see a movement also to more or to retire and isn't. and har tend to rules. and i think

this explains some of it that also the been union cannot answer the basic questions it has not been reformed has not the big as my problem has always proposed and wanted to do. and so the people few left alone then turn to national this stick. i'll feel this big part is we're definitely seeing that on a national level, the question is if that's also going to happen on the e, you level. and nadine, how much power do these political parties have to actually change you politics at the moment? while i think until now they are divided into 2 fractions or 2 groups within the european parliament. this is the id, the identity and democracy. and on the other hand, the e cut out of the european conservatives and reforms, so i'm so know they haven't really joined forces yet. and it will be very interesting to see what happens after the 9th of june after they are up in election to see if they will join forces. if they will find new partners, maybe within the conservative to is, will there be like one shoot,

right drink. see the group within the european parliament? i think then they can really change the politics and brussels. if they fail to phone that in a core, listen, i think they will stay fragmented. but on the other hand, the point is, the shift to the right within germany, within other countries, within the economy, ignored by the conservatives, also maybe by the social democrats. but all the parties who were rule within the u, the u commission. so i think there will be changes in the politics even though, right. when politicians, not really impala, but they were producing invisible change and definitely more pressure towards the traditional parties. nobody's. i live in germany these days, it seems like you are exposed to have on boardman of political ad saying this election is crucial. this election is important to go vote. it matters. what do you think makes it different from previous you elections?

well, elections always crystal, but clearly we are seeing what could be a potential force or said moment of the right and the extreme right actually playing a larger role in brussels. when you see old enough on the line who's the top candidates for the p for the conservative centers, conservative and book, it really vying for support from someone like george and bologna, who is as actually mazda of the game of being a fall vice at home. but actually being a surprisingly pro european politician once she's in brussels and that is in itself a change in the way brussels works in the way european politics works. so the question is whether the fall rights can actually become a main stream full stack can no longer be seen as exactly that. the small fragment fragment at the end of the spectrum of what is mainstream politics. and that will ultimately depends on the voters. if we take a deeper look at germany,

voters of the far right party seem to be very resilient. the alternative for germany has been monitored by the federal office a for in the process of protection of the constitution. for years, the german domestic intelligence service classified the party as a so called suspected case of white wing extremism. and rightly so, as a chord confirmed a few weeks before the european elections. it's one of just many scandals. here's a look at the parties leading figures. beer and hooker is the a of these liter in the german state of turing. yeah. where he's spending a radical nationalist ideology that some have called fascist inmate. a court imposed a fine on the former history teacher for knowingly using a band nazi slogan. maximilian call is the a of these top candidate for the european elections. one of his employees allegedly spied for china horse by the republic call has also been accused of accepting money from russia in the chinese secret service,

which he denies in one attribute called claimants. but not all members of the s s were criminal of sparking international outrage. attributes from is number 2 on the 8 of these european election list. he is also currently under investigation for allegedly accepting money from russia to promote pro russian propaganda, which he also denies. is the a of the 2 extreme for europe's right wing populace were about to see mounted, even if the supporters dismissed all those allegations as nothing short of immediate conspiracy to damage the party ahead of the elections. how significant are those revelations? well, this will be an interesting point to see on the 9th of june, because until now we don't see really, how can i say a tumbling in acceptance within their but with us we see them with like 17 percent, which is a huge class compared to the 11 percent, the sd had into 2019

a new election. so still more people are supporting the f d. i think we have 2 points that are really important. well, on the one hand a, the support us have a huge skepticism about traditional or established media. they don't really trust what they hear and see with the media. and on the other hand, i think there's like a strong what evasion to vote, a f d to show some disrespect against the leads i think to vote for a d as an elite vote, and i think this motivation is stronger them. uh, then the skepticism about the scandals and sometimes a of d offers. they support us some rhetoric regarding oh, also, but then the other part is they also have the scandals. phone deadline has some investigations where there's kept a gauge within the u parliament, which comes through the social democrats. so i think they have some rhetorics to

defend themselves, and their support is, believe them. they definitely do it. however, even though the party is acting as if nothing is happening, more or less, and we say that it does have an impact. is this a big problem for the if the, internally, all these scans are going on? i tell you what of what i see is the biggest problem is that somebody in the pen basically said that they don't have a leadership which discredits them at the european level as anyone you can actually work with. and at the national level, you can see how they are it, i'd say in a panics mode to get a grip on the situation. i mean, you couldn't make this up. the top candidates has been banned from actually appearing for election rallies. he's been spotted appearing publicly a just a day ago, so that is already being looked at with suspicion within the their own policy. number 2 on the list is also no longer palatable as we just saw. so number 3 on the list is the one who's kind of weight of the company right now. and so that raises

some by the fundamental questions on how they, they even present themselves over this very, very long couple of days until the 9th of june. until that boat actually takes place. so with a public, the discredited and but that's the reason raises the point. where does the support come from? and if you speak to potential voters on the street, it's more a symptom of got the politics of people resenting an establishment. and, and that is something that is not going to go away. i've spoken to if the virtues to say, well, they just wanted to demonstrate to the established of a system that they're against it. so it, it feeds into a reduction in support for democracy as the favorite form of government. that still has a large majority here in germany, but also there is a growing sense of people being more open to more of sorry, terry and style of politics. so the question is, are they a political forcing themselves in the future?

i think there's some huge question marks right now here in germany, or do they remain the symptom of a rejection of politics as it's done right now? and that's, of course, a very important question. woke up, do they have policies and suggestions for the future? a vision for other countries that actually appealed to voters or is this more the protest vote that we so often hear? it's funny you asked because we were just discussing before the program that we have the impression that most of the of the voters don't even read the program. ok . i'll give you that applies to all parties actually. yeah. yeah. because they got things in there like uh, abolish the, the tax on, on the, on gasoline. and so, i mean, this is a realistic web address to get the pollutants back. you know, our, our oldest all of us, euro says scepticism. i think it's really a protest party especially, and what i'm seeing here is a little bit of trumpets as what does the term do it so which i'm to always say

about me is not true. i'm assuming this is a little bit the attitude i see at the moment on at the top level of the a f d, because they'd try to, to, to say for this to say, but i mean they're being rejected even by their right point partners in euro which was really a slap in the face and the so that should give them to think. but i mean, all the moderate elements have been eliminated from the leadership in the course of the year. so what is left is that there is a party that's turning more towards the stream, right. but do voters care about that? we junction for about those scandals to protest? apparently not if you look at the latest polls, i mean the, if you went down from 22 and the scandal scan yet to 15, know they're up again. that's 17. you know, um the defects a little bit, but the real tests will be touring. yeah. when we have a local election original election and the federal, the state of to ring g a. so we will see how strong they get there because they,

they used to be of that could be the strongest party there for a long time in the boats. the strongest party there, but i mean, there's the, the, the firewall that the other part is want to set up against them. but i wonder if the christian democrats really would cooperate with a left, you know, in order to avoid cooperating with the f d. that is to be seen. that notion of the firewall has been so far. holding up here in germany, we try it up. do you think that's going to change in the future? i think it has already somewhat changed. if you speak to the top, see, do you candidates of the cd you in in eastern states in spring? yeah. for instance, they are finding it hard and if you speak to local politicians, they find it must be impossible. i had one speak about it and say look, are we going to refuse to agree to building that bridge because it was something to if they came up with yes. so that is getting more difficult. but in terms of german

politics overall, so that somebody is not going to happen that you're going to see a coalition with the fall, right? if the party at the national level, anywhere, i dare say you're not going to see a full co listen, would be a if the anywhere in germany a, whichever level at. but then this day to day politics. that way you need to get stuff done. and, but i don't think that that is necessarily the key question. i mean, you also have been to some of our next next years, which is a left leader who is now actually surprising the successful with being i was described as being so, so less that she comes out on, on the vice here. and because she manages to, to combine left wing politics, the key on social issues and market economy issues with and on 3 migrations. dawn. so that appeals to different comes and in see may be the most effective political tool against the far right. a if the at the regional level because he's already up

and above 5 percent, sometimes above 10 percent in some regions picking the square matches so much. if we found something we thought was unthinkable just a few years ago. and i think you're now stay of that full piece in ukraine. i mean pro russia to, to do was to really finish off with this conflict, which is also, i just wanna say everybody is full piece and you crate. yeah. yeah. but the argument is, as you don't need to give russell, whatever it one is exactly. exactly, and that's also a stance that divides to european parliament for sure. coming back to what book i mentioned about the rejection on a european level, how significant do you think it is 4 to 6 of the likes of money in the pen to reject a if the at this moment? well, i think for maureen dependents a decision that comes on marine the pin i think it's not fault for her. the fate of the the is not really important thing for her. the year 2027 is really important. then we have the presidential election and friends and she wants to be the next president of from so she has to win more than 50 percent of the vote doesn't

friends. so it's important for her not to only find the right wing both just but also to attract most of the, of the middle. so she needs to finish her course of the abilities ation or of how can i say and her idea of make the are in the rest of the more nice to know of many of make it more electable to vote. as of all comes. so i think for her the a if d is not really useful for her, it's more, it can be more of a problem. but on the other hand, i think we still have to see the whole right. the whole writing politics in europe is now really fragmented at still we have to see what happens of the 9th of june. i think we have like 2 major questions. the 1st question is, what do we have like a super crew within the parliament? and then also the question is maloney supporting was a fund deadline, see more or less switching to come going more to right middle come the

supporting her and i think to me it, georgia maloney is the most crucial the most the size of figure right now in the game sheets she will, she will be the one who gives the most the size of the impulse store. the whole scene will take a look at exactly that. the turmoil and the european parliament is paving the way from you alliances. even those that were previously a no go in order to secure her re election for a 2nd term. you commission president was that off on the line from the conservative iep block is openly courting george. i'm a lonely italian head of government and her party. the post passes brother is a visually, this is prime minister, georgia, maloney is being forwarded by 2 different political idealogues including rightly nationalist marine la penn. and conservative politicians are to live under lion and the run up to her re election bid. the head of the european commission have demonstrated that she's open to cooperating with maloney's far right for tell. he did totally a party in the european parliament. i have been working very well with

a judge, i'm alone into european council, the topics we going to offer. then we're going to see whether those who are pros, your p and she is clearly prose your pin against fortune. she's been very care play on that one and pro who else law if this whole and then we offer to work together in response live 10 is proposing a joint parliamentary group that includes her party members together that would make them the 2nd largest block in the european parliament, the pen who's national rally parties even further to the right, says that she and maloney agree on the main issues. le pen, or vander lion, who will win maloney support. it's not easy to tell, but i throw the question to you both countries. who do you think it's gonna be qual, maloney, and the pen is also a proposition of a victo on from hungary. i mean, he wants these 2 groups to cooperate,

but i think that the funder line would be very cautious of cooperating with the pen . but she will be eventually willing to cooperate or to, to be elected by the votes of fact, the lead, the thought. yeah, by george, i'm alone his party because as he mentioned, formally charge on bologna false hopes, the criteria she is pro ukraine. she's pro european as far as of now is during her government and she's pro rule of law. so these are the 3 criteria. and the pro cr ukrainian spent marine the fan in the past, i must say in the past has been thoughtful, you know, with our stands for russia. um so um i think in the case that the majorities will be that fund a line need some more votes than maybe just the social democrats and greens or so or doesn't get enough food. i think she will rely on the conservatives of the of

the c, r group and the fatality to tell you, i think she will rely on either talking about these 3 criteria to be pro european if you're willing to do it seems like a pretty low standard d space and i think you know, that there's like one point in it's really interesting that's on the line. doesn't mention that because from the line had one like really central unimportant project within like a 1st 5 years was a green deal. it wasn't one of a major projects and i think to her it must be really clear that you can't follow that you can't really finish the green d a when she speaks for support from the right wing politics because like climate politics is not, is like on the top of the list of stuff that the right people, the things the want. so i think for her it, it must be clear that it will be a huge step back. we have seen it with your re not to race and roll that to the conservative side with the u. c. r or seeking support from the right thing and well in the end, the whole project for us really a dangerous so and received the protests of the fall most within germany also

within the lens within friends with in other countries within the us. so there's like a huge push also from that side to make the politics more liberal there to focus less on climate spend that's on, and barbara memphis fund. that's let me show you that we often talk about these parties as the nice parties. but in the end, they will say that they are the better representatives of democracy in europe, that they represent the voters interest more. do think with a stronger rights wing, if you will, in the european parliament that will also see policies are closer to the people or so the answer's no, uh, because that's not how the european union works and this is actually issued. and that the notable difference between the european union and the united states, for instance, it's not the one that takes it, all compromises have to be made. it's like a quiet, it will only determine how loud and the fall right will be heard in the european

parliament, which has to sign off on any european project laws. so it is a very powerful environment at the same time. and you need the heads of state as well, and so on, on key issues like trade, how is from the in brussels, but on many issues it's, it's still rest with the individual states. and i just want to point out one huge difference, which i think is kind of a tell tale sign that this is not just about money as well. a bernie sanders, i'm the leftist and sense of the united states. his argument in the states is that you can beat right when populism by having something like, well, social security for the health care people taking care of well, your has all of this. yeah. so so it's not just about the money it's, it's more complex than that. um, so yeah, that was a long answer and yeah, but it was nowhere near the right wing takeover of the you were just not what are

we close to then book i would just say that it will become more difficult to govern in the european union and you mentioned how important that is to have leadership and to have strong a strong notion of what's where we're going if it will be definitely more difficult to govern europe. although, as michelle, as mentioned, i mean the european parliament has limited to competence. so i mean, they liked the commission president, but in, in the end, as we saw last time, they had of states can overrule yeah. and they have to a point to approve the, the, the commission us. and so they have a say in the budget of the you, but in the end and on international agreements. so like the free trade agreement with america. so could fall if the i'll try to conservative, i'll try right. does not agree eventually that could be a possibility, but in the end, yeah, most, you know, the most the of the say is with the,

the council of ministers still and, but the national states. but what i see is that the people in the different states are looking for identity for. yeah, that's, that is what leads to more nationalism because they see that the, you does not really solve the problems. and i am so disappointed that i'm going to america did not agree to the proposal. it's awfully monitoring my crawl. many years back to reform the you, we need a reform of the you, we need a european parliament that really has the legislative powers. i mean it's, it's upset, the executive, i mean, the concept of ministers is, at the same time the, let's as us to, to, by the, i mean, this upstart is just like the echo from the concert of ministers for economic and turn to questions are the finance ministers of the countries, i mean they will never punish themselves for not fulfilling the criteria stability . so there are many construction faults in the european union which need to be attending and hasn't been attended, which lead to

a dissatisfaction in the population. and furthermore, i think this election, this european election is also about the national politics of the people vote to, to approve or disapprove of the national government speed in spain. be it, and the german you'd be it in france. that's where we see a disapproval, for instance, of germany and the strong if the are strong. my really depends on, hence that the big difference between national politics and the politics. that's all we have time for unfortunately, but i want to thank all 3 of you for joining us today. of course you for watching. and remember that you can always watch our shows in our youtube channel. just look forward to the news and the lead us to the point show, i'm sorry, you know, i guess so next time. take care. bye the the,

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. this is dw dues live from berlin. tonight, the head of nato. once the guard rails removed for ukraine against owenberg says, ukraine should be allowed to use western weapons to strike inside russia. we'll take a look at why keats biggest backers are holding some one's back. also coming out guilty verdicts for 14 hong kong pro democracy activism. tonight we ask, what does this mean for the future of the offices shouldn't be there. and south africa, all the break of political change, the party that rule the country since the end of the part. so i may.