the, the, to a wasted life, katia and her daughter's stuff, june 22nd on the w. destroyed cities, power plants and critical infrastructure. many areas in eastern ukraine are in ruins and an end to the russian aggression is nowhere in sight. in the midst of the war, ukrainian president of a lot emerged the landscapes lobbying for help to rebuild his country. he's asking germany for aid, but also for more weapons german, chancellor. or actually it's as promising further support, but wants to avoid an escalation of the conflict. germany and nato however, must be ready to resist the work of things go wrong. on to the point we ask between fear empty tyrants can here up to defend itself. the

welcome to this week to the point i'm probably gonna guess it's good to have with us. let's meet 2 days. guests, not blink is a journalist with germany's table media. she's specialized in domestic and security policy. and transatlantic relations. don, you had left slot, is the chief political editor for germany's su, thoughts, and sites on in berlin. closely following the german chancellor, he was also a correspondent in moscow and woman gunshot ankle is my dw colleagues from ukraine's currently works with the w russian service. usually see him sitting here at our table today, just joining us from bar 12. you welcome. thank you for being with us. what i'd like to start with you, daniel. things have been moving for your training last few days. we solve a lot of me as a landscape, addressing the german parliament in person for the 1st time in a conference to secure aid. we saw what seems to be a commitment for

a $50000000000.00 loan on the way from the g. 7 countries are ukraine's allies finally doing it off. well, i think they will, if they are doing, and that's who will know. uh, the minutes ukraine winced. this war, at least the russia is not winning this war. i would say it, they, they, they are getting the message they know they have to do more. and districts now is getting better. i would say. what is also very interesting right now is that ukraine seems to be getting more freedom more combat freedom that i'd like to ask you. what do you make of these decisions? for instance, the us lifting the band for weapons for the controversial is off for game and those liberties that ukraine seems to be getting. so i think that's very important for germany because it was a hurdle for jeremy need to send weapons. they're reaching far into the russian territory, and that was a very crucial point for the whole discussion. i guess all this why we keep hearing bad news from the frontlines woman. how do you assess the current situation in

ukraine down united seems to believe that things are getting better, at least from the side of support. but does this situation in the front line justify a doubling down on support for your claim? well, i came back from ukraine just a few days ago, and i was also in the city of hockey for the 2nd largest city of ukraine, close to the russian. boeing, which is probably a city that is a most hardly hit by russian missiles. and um, that has been a change the people i've been talking to and told me that they do feel that since the west, the united states. but also other countries have given you credit green lights to use their weapons to hate a russian military targets inside restaurant just over the border. that the hark, if people of park, if, and it's over a 1000000, i can sleep better at night. so there are less booms, shells, and drones flying. of course, russia keeps on hating the city, but the intensity is not as it was as it has been in the past weeks and months. so

there is a change there. what is important, i think, for our discussion is to understand that the bus and help and all those red lines that were crossed or could be crossed in the coming weeks. the only talking about it because there was real danger of a rush on making significant advances on the front line. so there was real fee of that the, the ukrainian lines could break, and the russian russians may be good and, and circle lodge and ukrainian, a formation. so if you're planning in troops and this is still on the table, i would say i would agree with daniel that the situation is improving slowly since the united states and finally approved the bill and then weapons are flowing now. but on the other hand, ukrainians, a steel out numbered and old gun to this, as we discussed, is a reaction to a situation in the front line in the support has been long into making german transfer. what actually is, has let germany to become ukraine's biggest supporter after the us,

but it didn't happen overnight. the transfer has been harshly criticized in and out of his country. observer say he lacks christmas, but what's worse, the chancellor's roadmap is often unclear. he hesitates too often and only seems to react under pressure when others have already stepped forward. a faithful started with these words, the feeling sponsors to february 24, 2022 monks. a turning point in the history of the continent come to shops, as usual motto was, rush things. his thoughts are with those afraid of the will escalating and he has been steadfast and following this guiding principle. it's one of those concepts, eyes of a chance that i am responsible for ensuring that no child is born in germany today will ever experience we're not country. that's just my top priority to all of schultz is regarded as a cautious statesman,

who avoids risks. despite the fact that germany supplies more weapons to ukraine than any other you country. just recently the chance, the declared, the german weapons could be used against targets in russia to a limited extent. until now this had been strictly off limits. schultz tyrus, leah shows his full support for kids, but always in close coordination with allies is the chance of being too reluctant or playing with fire center. we just saw those long deliberations to authorize. the use of german weapons against targets in russian territory excites discarded, that, as we just saw, as an option now he's giving, in following the us are they just wasting very valuable time? yes, in the all wasting time. but i think the transfer will always waste his time because he was always look what american president is doing. i think we have to understand that the government and the drum and translate consider themselves to be a man taking dramatic decisions. because 2 years ago it was,

i'm think about 3 years ago was i'm think about that. germany would support you kind of the situation. but you will always say, we are as a medium sized country, too weak to pick decisions that are, that are really leading that are, that are more far reaching then, for example, the united states would take. so it was clear that you would take a decision regarding for it comes if, for example, less than weapons being used for targets in russia, but not before the united states are doing this. so could we go as far as to say that the german policy is more or less decided in washington at this point? yes, i would say to a degree yes. because in contrast to the french president of chancellor would never take a decision that is not, not, that's not a did not talk about with president biden, that he thinks as a more far reaching than the president would take a decision. now if we here, it shows us words. one, it seems to be like,

the fear is to get germany directly involved in the war. but the red lines, as you mentioned, have been pushed over and over again. is that still a realistic concern given russia's reactions to all of this so for as well from the point of view of the german chancellor. yes, it is a concern, but those uh those lines are moving. uh they uh they have been crossed. um and i think um, uh, it's not the last red line that this thing being crossed uh, just a few weeks ago was the decision to allow ukraine to hate a russian targets we were talking about. um and, and we're still talking here in europe about the possibility of sending a military train us to your crime from nato countries present. my crone of fronds was the 1st one to mention it. the baltic states, poland, maybe some scandinavian states could follow, or there is no decision yet, but it's part of the debate. and when the chrome 1st voice of this idea, there was a very harsh reaction in germany from trans lashawn. so each i said no way,

there is no way nato countries are getting involved in the i think he has changed his position slightly, but i still cannot imagine him gay giving a goal for him, for one disagree or for the german army a to train inside your crime, it is still a very sensitive issue, especially after the elections were here, heard that phrase that it is unimaginable many times before. let's see how that one plays out. there is one ideological red line if you will, but there's also a financial one, not the president of the kill institute for the world economy has questioned germany's handling of the economy and what it means for the war and ukraine. he says that germany's fiscal policy, that is, of course, very cautious if you will, is a danger for europe. do you agree with that assessment? i think it is. so the kristy, we're speaking about the deadline, you know, because it's saying a code that, that could be no limit on. i think he's failing. right? because if you see what the germans are doing for military 8 and even for

governmental 8 for the ukraine, it's not enough. and the other thing is you have to think about your own security. yeah. and you can cover this with the current household. so to say so that think it says no option just to lift the depth limit. so you'll see that happening in the near future. i don't see it, but i think it's necessary to think assessor. we also have to think what germans actually want done you, we just saw the european elections is playing out in germany was 2 political parties that are critical to germany's stands on ukraine. gaining very large support as compared to of former elections we're talking about among others to the far right. a if the party does that mean that at least parts of the german population or maybe even citing with russia. yes, i would say there is a not too big portion of the site is citing with russia. i would say in eastern germany, that is really the case. some feel more sympathy for protein. then for the lensky, it was really boring. sign that the the fall, right?

a if the members of bonus talk did not listen to presidents the landscape while he was speaking at the building this talk. and i think they think that that was something that is well perceived, especially in eastern germany. so yes, there is a certain influence of keeping by russian propaganda in parts of the society. on the other hand, it's 20 percent 20 percent for a if d and the left wing bottom contest party in germany and 40 percent in eastern germany still it majority i think is supporting you. credit is supporting the rest and support and the driven support for ukraine. in this more, do you think that support for the ukraine critical parties comes from nearly economics positions or do you think it's actually the, as the party sell it? they have the better solution to end this war. i don't think it's a better solution to end this war. it's really about, it's

a cultural thing. i would say, i think the parts of, especially the population in germany. and i don't really feel to be part of this best them democracy of this list and rules that we are, that we're living in and they feel more sympathy for, for a russia. i would say that's similar, for example, of countries like hungry. we have this phenomenon in germany and it's, it's the part, it's not the majority, but it's a part of the societal. but i think when i, when it, when i'm a jump in, it's also a huge argument among social democrats. it's not only the in, from only independence, modern commission, but all the social democrats are showing new ways. yes, yes. the party of all the shows fits typically a showing way or because it is a deep rooted fear of being too engaged in this more. i'm the fear of, i haven't russian impression, there is a certain anti american sentiment, but i would say that's within the social democrats by now. really? that's a minority. i think. yes, those we see those people. but i think within the social democrats, it's

a minority. most of them would say we have to support you a credit. and of course yes, there is def, this fear of being directed into this war. and that is something that the chancellor is trying to address to that not very well because looking at the results in the election of the strategy of saying we are supporting ukraine. but i am the one avoiding us, becoming a part of the war did not play out, but he wants to fulfill this, which loved being the piece translator. so i think he's driven by this. so understanding. hi, she thought that that would work very well and that that's what the germans want him to do and the elections results. just do not prove that the vision of how to put an end to this war to be a broker for peace is a difficult one woman. what is the landscape vision from the last that you've heard from him to end the war? if he gets all the weapons and the support that he is requesting, he said that ukraine will only end the war in its own truths. well,

this is a very clear message that we have heard from prisons, a lensky, and he's preaching the german going to stock. he said the time for compromise is over. so he referred to the time at the beginning of, for, well ukraine negotiated with russia. that could be what it's, it seems, it seems to be that there could be a base the could have been because after that, things have changed dramatically. and i don't think you'll be okay and, and isn't a position to return to, to those negotiations that were a debt time in, in eastern book, kentucky. but on the other hand, as we are speaking, your crime is preparing a huge piece conference in switzerland with the about a 100 countries and organizations. and, and this is, this is something that an optimist, including the german chancellor, all the shows of you as a possible beginning of a off to piece as they say in ukraine. i think the expectations are

a high on the one head. but on the other hand, they are also limited because some very important countries, like china, like saudi arabia are not there. so it could be one of the, of many conferences uh that we are facing now. and in the end are ukraine is still not ready to accept. that's what russia wants and martial bones now to um, to have all those territories, but it has occupied since 2020, to encourage and crimea, which was an x in 2014 rush out once ukraine to, to say that it accepts those territories. and all parts of frushell, i don't think your credit is ready to do that. talked to go that far. and the polls we've seen in ukraine just a few days ago. concerning that. a 34. so here kind in population and they'll try to just use the territory and we should not forget, it's not just standard rates. also millions of people. for sure. one thing is the path to peace, but the other one is a possible path to war. it's one thing to defend ukraine, but what if you're

a pass to defend itself from russian attacks? europe is currently undergoing a rhetorical rearmament resilience. and where is our and everybody's lips these days. but what is the real condition of your arms? despite 100000000000 euros of special funds, the german forces are poorly equipped that show to an alms equipment and a bubble will pass. now, the german army is aging and shrinking the defense ministers pushing for change the i'm listen before we have to be ready for war by 2029. we must act as a deterrent and prevent a worst case scenario system always us and come. that has been a noticeable shift in other european country stones as well. sweden and finland have joined nato, while more of its troops have been stationed in the border regions of eastern europe, and many countries are arming themselves. the problem remaining, however, is europe's dependence on the u. s. american defense spending is about twice that

of all of the nato countries combined. and the plans for common european arms industry are lacking in implementation. how perpetual is europe? that's of course, a big question and we've heard a lot about europe's insufficient military capacities. where do you draw the line between what the european nato countries can't do and what they so far simply didn't want to do. i think they can do a lot of their content a lot at receive at the tort phone because they are poorly equipped even the german army. i'll pull the equipped we have a lay depending on the uh, united state army. so we can do and you think even to transport troops with membrate code to the eastern flank on your question was what we can do. i think the old think that the procurement as a have to be improved heavily, therefore you need money and therefore i'm to come back to the other question. maybe you have to lift the depth limit. so, but these problems are well known at the start of the world and already it,

do you see a shift? as of today, you get a small shift, say a step by step, germany is just like going far and going, trying to reach more, more funding for the pull the equip on me. but there are still steps to go along. step to go down you of germany's defense minister and says he wants germany to be quote, combat ready for 2029 or by 2029. what does that mean? well that means that we need a lot, a lot more money to invest in the army. i think that 2 percent we reach now 2 percent defense spending and we will have to invest much more money than we are now. and i agree we will have to have different rules. i don't think that this correlation right now is ready to take the decisions that have to be taken to prepare this country for a possible war. uh, i think that will be the jump of the next correlation and you have to explain it to

the, to the, to the site, to tell it to fight this through. we have to step up into doing more. and i think that's, that's you have to have political, you know, more political communication in a difficult economic context. we have to add to that, which is different than the us hold on. is there any reason to believe as of today that european nato allies could defend say, finland or a baltic countries? if russia opened another friend given the experiences in ukraine? well, that's a good question. i think um, as we speak now, um i would doubt that and i think the country's ends in most of europe, this going to navient. they also down the that's why they have invested heavily, much more than germany in their defense and keep on doing so. so things will have to change. i absolutely agree with one of the colleagues have been saying what daniel has just said, the germany will have to do more. so just to just an example, a germany has decided to station one brigade in this fine. yeah. in the, in the,

in the baltics, and it will take about 5, yes, for the brigade to be fully operational. this is a milestone for germany. this is, this is high speed for germany, but this is most high speed in the face of the war happening just over the border. now, so german, you will have to change and keep on changing. it is changing all righty. but the pace is too slow and judging from eastern europe in perspective. so far we have focused this part of the conversation on money in financing, but troops are another big issue, not germany is trying to re think it's military service these days. is that enough, is there a viable solution to that problem in germany and maybe also europe in general? i think they are going very far for germany. it's just, they have a new model of conscription. it's sort of like, uh the, the photography and the stores the stores wants to have the swedish model. that's the best of both worlds. but they only can go that far within this coalition. so

they can briefly explain the swedish model of the spiritual. if they ask voluntarily, no, it's not, not the whole entire ease there. uh oh, man, old male are reached. why are at the questionnaire and they have to fulfill it. and then there will just pick the best ones, though they have the best of both worlds. and in germany, we now have a model that we are trying to reach why our mail every mail, but they only picked like 10000 on demand are forced to answer this questionnaire. but the females not so that's the best we can do in germany. you know, i think you can go far. there is even discussions within the german government of whether this is the best solution or not. daniel, how are these specials going? but the always discussions a we think this coming out what we think, and i think there was an expectation that more should have been done that this is not enough. and i think it is obvious. and it is clear to this is just the 1st step . this is the 1st step that is preparing the next step, then because then we have

a system we can build on the next step. probably if things go as we have to expect things to go. the next step will be obligatory military service. actually to go back to the system that we had before during the cold war, but i don't know how long this will take because it is something that would probably be highly unpopular as we've seen in other countries. the question is, how much in denial do you think are people in germany still that a war is a serious threat and a very possible scenario? i think people are in denial, even though the chancellor, after the start of the war, said we have a type of vendor that's a, that's a famous board right now turning points, complete a new situation and people very impressed by the speech. but i think them nothing really followed, i think life went more or less on as they were used to. and so i think this is not really one shock that changes everything. it's

a gradual process that we're going through right now and it takes time. and of course, the parts of side b are in denial and i agree, it is the job and it would be the job of the chancellor to explain to the people what the situation is. and that as the minister of defense has said, we have to get ready for a situation in which we are in which we have to fight what this was on. think about for most people in germany just a couple of years ago. and for many, it probably still is and even the bought out of subscription to just add another argument is very popular among the other one, you know, having experienced the cold war, but among the young ones for h e till the 25th is absolutely no start are so they are deeply reluctant to even think about ask them, i mean, ask them, do you think, did you think it is a possibility? russia will attack germany and most of them will answer no. yeah. they think it's unthinkable it literally uh, hold on. let's have

a brief look into the future before we end to show in a to conference will take place in washington. in july, both the military capacity and native support for your claim will be discussed. what do you expect or well, i think the approach in ukraine is more a distance now. so you kind of was a year ago and at a conference in this brand new in virginia. so ukraine was hoping to get the signal from nato for a start or from a preparing for membership. then it was disappointed, but then the hopes, well for the summit in washington, now i send you great understands that the situation is not bad. so uh, washington and billing, i'm not ready to invite you crying to j 9 to, to start that process. so maybe sometimes in the future, the problem is stands but nato is not ready to go further. on the other hand, you can have those bilateral security agreements in many countries, including germany, and as we speak, it is about to sign such an agreement with united states. so for the time being

when it is, it is a better solution, maybe not to escalate sorta, but later on when this war is over ukraine and insist that it wants to join nato. we have time for one last question that i would throw to you. uh, also as a specialist journalist in security issues would rush, i lose a war against data if it happened today desperately. i think so because it's of the one of the successful uh, lines you have for 75 years, so uncomfortable. right will of course and the discussion bear and the rest is yet to be seen. want to thank all of our guests for being with us today. and of course you for watching, remember, you can always look at our shows and watch them on youtube. just search for d, w news and look for it to the point time for you to get us until next time. take care by the,

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answers the conflicts on a search. you support for file right? policies in the european elections. send tramos across the continent. my guess is we hear some drug costs, the outgoing member of the european parliament in president macros when they saw how risky is macros. decision to coal, small collections in front part of the conflict in 30 minutes on the w. 2, the points. strong opinions,

clear positions, international perspective. many areas in eastern ukraine, our influence in the midst of the war presence and landscapes asking for financial aid and more wetlands, germany pledges health blood once to avoid an escalation of the war. on to the point we ask between here and the parents and europe defend itself to the point taking in 19 minutes on d w. the is increasing at reason many of watching online services. the only work that is holiday destination drowning cost wise at the cost every year of the exports over $1000000.00 tons of plastic. why

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dw news now i from buttons fresh backing for ukraine from the us out of the allies, presidents for the meals, and lensky and job items, find a long term security agreement. g 7 leaders agreed to fund ukraine using frozen russian assets on looking billions of dollars. aust, portions of unreason, look and file structure. also in the program. your 2020 phone kicks off in germany just hours from now. we look at the huge security operations behind the football championship, the.