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tv   Fear Power Remembrance  Deutsche Welle  July 4, 2024 3:15am-4:01am CEST

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and with that, you're all up to date. thank you so much for your company. if it's the latest headlines you're looking for, there's always our website that we come by, the, the coming 0, same 6. 03 tons. people stories is kinda items that feed us complex. doors sometimes when he saw a voltage chip in search of the ticket. so i'm showing 3 generations, one journey starts july 7th on dw, the in september 1961 to 17 year olds met on the blue wonder bridge and dressed. and
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we just wanted to do something against opportunity deal the elections rick. then they built before they wanted to send a signal for the home. we climbed up the middle high, straight up top and house and went down backwards. risking his life in painted the letters the next morning. the words down with o brakes were on the bridge. the boys were sent to prison. folks in my cell was number 14. we no longer have names. 14 ones that from the left and 14 to stepped on the right sleep deprivation. late night interrogations? no visitors confined to a dock cell for a night's and the thing the
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. the address didn't ministry for state security was located in a silver building on 1000 us plaza at the time. the complex is now home to mainly young people. the prison in the courtyard has become a memorial and museum. in late 1989 over 2300 full time stalls, the employees worked here. we on a z there. the memorials director 1st entered the building through the former staff entrance in 2007 minutes as to my end is famous to come and i walked into this prison for the 1st time and it really affected me once gets all. i'd never seen the inside of a prison for thank god and i knew this was authentic. that was all that there had been people here mentioned on as far as sales. if so, i found it very moving and it prompted me to really wrestle with what happened here
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in 2 months of protesting every december 5th, former prisoners meet in the memorials, ball room, where the stars he held celebrations and ceremonies until the fall of communism. the survivors recalled their fates, historians report new findings and artists present their work. the some who serve time here are meeting again for the 1st time. others come regularly like looks candler, who with his 2 friends, carried out the stand on dressed and famous blue under bridge over the elbow river . the in september, 1961. a few weeks after the wall was built,
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then 17 year olds planned their daring feet. they used to be a milk bog down where we have stopped class. a few days later they were ready. candler and haas are met at the bridge just before midnight. a 3rd man klaus schumann had mixed the paint in his father's shop. of this in the middle ages, i didn't put nice and foot by a good kind of middle who and nothing. so i stayed up top and also went down backwards, risking his life and painted the letters this stuff, the top top pins and puts out. so you got an answer type of you're supposed to have down with old. we play out with the state council. let me start over. we agreed that if i didn't say anything, it was okay. okay. but if i would have to talk because he was dressed in black and
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had his f d j shots on the me, if we can call, you would have said he wants to write long live the german democratic republic. it's all good. has to say the weather got worse and worse, aver heard, has or managed to write the 1st slogan on the bridge arch before it started pouring rain. they stopped through the paint and brushes into the elbow and set off in different directions the next morning. down with old brick was written on the bridge arch, blurred but still legible. the study took photos. the 3 boys told no one about their stunt. loose finished you never knew who would write to out. about some people who are friendly and cheerful, turned out to be informed. yeah, that's one of we just wanted to do something against the g d off. it wasn't able to dig it out. the matter only came to light 3 months later,
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eberhart has or had drawn police detention for experimenting with fireworks and was arrested. did this, does he know what he had done back in september? or was it just a bluff, pause or under enormous pressure confessed to the deed on the bridge. the police then picked up his 2 friends the i miss all so i'm giving you the funds to have it. so they took me from my home at lunch time and brought me here and put me in a south emission that said that i had no idea of what was going on, but just being stuffed in a bunch things that said at the house that on be back home by evenings, if you shop by mind with my parent said i had to go to one and the stars. he said, i'd be right back all the time i used was to clarify, i'm not always beside going to bring it was all alone here in the cell and didn't even know why. between 1953198910000
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people mostly political prisoners awaited sentencing here in the dressing reman center of the ministry for state security. but who was this great, unpredictable power, the starchy, the ministry for state security was established under the direct guidance of the soviet secret service when the gd, r was found, it. it was a domestic secret police investigative agency and foreign intelligence service. with 17 raymond prisons of its own the stalls, it was controlled solely by the c d. leadership. the shield and sort of the party was the motto, the but behind it for people full time employees that the ged are state security, were not only interrogators prison and wardens and monitors. they were also nurses,
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drivers, and kindergarten teachers. in the 1970s, several new apartment blocks were built which were occupied exclusively by dresden starting employees and their families. around 2300 people worked in the valid semester as a building and it's around things their children and went to the stars these own kindergarten. the there were summer camps where young people were schooled in the spirit of state security. children's curiosity and thirst for action and adventure were exploited for the socialist costs. the comrades of merit were honored. women's day was celebrated and card tournaments were played in the large hall at the headquarters.
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vladimir putin was a welcome guest. as an officer of the soviets secret service, the k g. b. he was stationed in dresden from 1985 to 1990, directly opposite the headquarters in a villa at 4 and delicacy, plaza food, and also head of state security id cards and played an important role in 1989. when the stars, the headquarters was stormed by angry citizens, the historian, hypo norman, leads tours of the 8 and a half acre district administration grounds, using old photos and aerial views. he explains where each building was located. one part of the complex 2 old villas, now stand unused on prime real estate on the banks to be able to
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send me the commissioning system to search the size of uh, this was the state security medical surface office, which was run by a doctor and nurses when they were here to provide medical care for the stuff, but it's under an exceptional cases. prisoners also received medical treatments here in also on the file. a commemorative chronicle from 1980 proudly mentions that the comrades from the administration no longer had to wait in other medical facilities and dressing and could make better use of their working hours. the next door, the former sitarski villa. this is, i just opened the public and this was originally a manufacturer's villa from the 19th century in 1928 to 29. they simplified it structurally in an english country house style. and in the style of the era,
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it was the clubhouse, with offices on the upper floors and a place for socializing and after work drink sites and all of that because it is kind of people drank and 8 on the balcony, facing the elder of the inside. of the car, that's how the building was used right up to the end of the guessing. so this is the notes on this computer. so there used to be greenhouses on the grounds below. and a dog kennel. many dressed in residents, still remember the loud barking of the dogs that ran along ropes across the terrace property. different moments village of the dogs were no doubt also there to prevent escape attempts from what i said. but along with this internal security, you have to bear in mind that it was a military facility with perimeter security. and this was the cold war, and the enemy was the western services were not allowed onto this property. the severe, i don't think kind,
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i'm fixing the van off. these is good and there were stalls the units and all 14 districts of the g. d. r and berlin, dressed and office, had special significance. these a suitcase in the huts from give us a specific drug helped by that. and i know that the district was produced and had 1800000 inhabitants at the time. poor people worked in agriculture, business and research as well was the coal mining. it's have these were the 3 main economic activities and i've done this on the transit route to south eastern europe . there were several of border crossing points in the districts which were guarded by state security division, 6, livingstone. and, and there was fairly strong opposition from a large emigration movements resulting in many investigations. suppose it's when it still could help submit the in the 1980s. in particular, this district had the most state security investigations debit. so code was politically very turbulent from the cd's point of view. police are set and that made this district and it's an administration here somewhat special and i'm
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comfortable. soaps of, i think here this one was the office of this does. he had major general horse doing, has been kept exactly as it was, because the stars the tapped and recorded all internal telephone conversations, even that of their own boss. visitors can hear booms, voice there today. the slash slash or somebody, call me in the morning at quarter past 7. if there's been any more trouble today because i'll be talking to the bras at half past 7. now you talk to a comb rates and the pdp again. ask them again if they think there was anything wrong with training tonight and planning like me, let's go up to 331 p. m. soccer games against western teams were especially stormy in front of bella view whether she got team this thing or a 40 to 50 soccer fans, do want to intervene,
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so signatures, etc. from the stuttgart team, boy, or one bush. this is a wireless love seat that's normal in principle, but there is not a single to namo dressed unofficial that with this surveillance, but it's from 1973. the stars the film to fans in central, dressed and before the european cup game between the nano dresden and byron unit, the they found a tourist in the spring or and at the ruins of the fallen cushion. and in october 89 cameras were rolling at rest in central station, when trains carrying embassy refugees from prox passed through. thousands of audio
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and video tapes were carefully archived. the countless private citizens were also monitored, observed in wire topped like new shales, schlosser, who assembled an airplane in his shed in order to flee to the west. colleagues who worked as informants for the styles that you betrayed him. today, there was a replica of his plane in the memorial thus organized the original app i no longer exist snelson small, 5 months in jail health, just because i built the plane, tigers declared to criminal justice, eyes full question. sicklerville problem. this does the called it operation. rigorous. interviewing those responsible at the time is difficult. most do not want to talk about the time or their involvement. but a former lieutenant colonel agreed to an anonymous interview about operation
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address is not so this is going to affect we minutes nights to secure the entire property without the full single. it was a covert search, unofficial drug allows division a to enter the property. it was opened the garage and carried out the searches, the easiest on that they told us they had found the plan for it. if he came, we could take them into custody right away or we waited overnight instead and arrested him from work the next morning. about shot of me. she has schlosser went to prison for 4 and a half years. the west german government bought his release for 96000 marks is all the sudden all saw you know the selection is good on i did nothing wrong in that situation to the kind and i have no blow to my hands. so the part from the shaw suitcase i never caused a permanent term to anyone,
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but that's the thought it was the law of the month at the time of transport almost under i have to live with that for the oil and was it was obviously it was michelle schlosser now leads to our groups through the memorials. these young people from seeker live in north ryan, west valia visit the oldest part of the seller nelson. we have virtually in the middle of the building. and this is where the soviet ministry administration came in. his thoughts on the line to come in 1947, the sylvia k g be set up a reman present in the basement of what was done, an old cardboard box factory. a sprawling labyrinth of sellers dumped. the fox hole was built beneath the current apartment buildings the long bouts, most proud of the thousands of real or a legit nazis or criminals. and the opponents of the regime were held in the
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basement prison sentence to death or to work in soviet labor camps or the homes on the hill. these a little tough scale up the vehicles in the parts of the settings or non foot on the hill. they conducted home with the sun instead of being into cells. so the test is coming from then on arrested everyone who looked suspicious folks including 14 and 15 year old on this one because i pulled up in flak. helpers both were in the militia home or this in the i know when they were holding me to be shipped off the full crew talk to come. does this um look, that was the coolest that stolen is built above the arctic circle, like larva raising the how to stop, even if they were all sentenced 25 years and they become punishment. i'm gonna transfer directly from yeah, that's longer, that's it. i just offer one most done for the hours that to 10 your plane in tops,
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there was no reason to wash and hide check on the toner to let this and there was hardly any light column, least it was almost empty. i lose rick. this isaac, most of the only things in here, the small and buckets in the cell to use when they took off into some 10 glen and whatnot and costs from nothing at all. no comics they could find the prisoner slipped on the floor. a mattress or whatever else i could find was locked, wouldn't blind. so if this is fucking 1953 on the gym and state security came of finally continued to use it as a detention center. i'm not till is all they built, wouldn't call the 1st toilet in this room because of this. i need to let the field line get bought and then i am alone. we're done. later, it was completely rebuilt us to the bond at the time they both and tradesmen who were convicts from g d o, a presence of faith and set up a work squad boss initiative. open to a rebuild of an expanded everything and at yahoo or not within. i'm all i school
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monday compared to the dns. it's on the open this alice for more knowledge. depaula's hoffman. the bible. hi michelle. yeah. was taken into custody in 1982. she was 28 years old at the time and had 2 young daughters. she spent 19 months here and was housed in the common so with other women. that's the system finished half of the practice. so was for the women prisoners among 6 women were crowded in here. it was always full. that's what it multi 1000000000 she and her husband had applied in 1982 to emigrate to west germany. the asked on top this afternoon to the 1st application was rejected. we didn't give up the struggle. collab 9 to the ones up to 1982. we went to the west german diplomatic mission. they don't give us from then on. we were under
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surveillance. come investigating cynthia thorne and on september 14th 1982, we were arrested for have dental barbara was our mission. yeah. was sentenced to 2 years in prison for slander and treason for children were allowed to stay with her sister in law. the spanish house my have a didn't go into the main cell house right away, the smart and so much they had to be in a standing cell 1st and then asked finish, trying to come only after them because i sent in to the cell house. i might in the bar once a week, we could go to the laundry area for fresh air. once a week. i love it and she spent her entire sentence here on boston as positive as cheap labor for the saucy, missing in russia. i was given this problem, i've only worked in the wash outside and we also had to clean here from this upstairs in the interrogation room and down here on the 2nd floor, we look forward,
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natasha. now she feels lucky to have stayed in the dressed installs. the prison and not a women's prison police seizures. so i need to shock. no, i was so mentally shattered that i just cried. the chaplain round them will take the point i dreamed about my mother and about my children now. and that was a huge emotional, very high last it shopped on a will to, to become, i was given set, it is fine. mission results i you're right thing. but as time to get me back on my feet, when mine shmarkus and my sister and brother in law came to see me every 6 weeks and your daughters, not the girls. how long were you away from them? not the night some more, not that the whole 19 months that i was here to shop for. so that's awesome. all right, and can i try not to think about it this time today?
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also to so you know, i tried to find some sense of balance. i should, substances for sister in law brought her some work and she began to crochet dogs in prison shop. in the green foxes appreciate a green and black one and the blue and black one biggest. i told him i wanted to make my children happy plight in my home. every weekend she wrote letters to her daughters who were only one and 3 years old. at the time. the letters she received in prison from her family had been preserved. barbara's our mission, your sister in law made sure that your daughters did not forget her while she was in prison. the she had from them which she always talked about me as mama while that's spoken to prepare the girls best to kindle pull behind it. one bottles are misha,
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jo divorced her husband in prison and withdrew her application to emigrate. after his release, he went to the west and she returned to her children. the blue doll is still on display today in the museum. let's candler and klaus schumann. the men from the blue under bridge turned 18, installed the prison, the 4 months before their trial are deeply in their memories. for 10 tons a team on january, the 15th, i thought maybe they would open the door and tell me that it opened a mistake and i could go home. and then the folks in, i'm phillips and nothing is the night of the 14th. they tracked me out of bed 8 times for interrogation. you couldn't sleep soundly. and when you did see that it was
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only for an hour or so. i lost all sense of time. the next night they did it 3 more time. comments can put sinus infections or what time do you remember which cell you were in? school? yes, sorry. well, were standing in front of it. my cell number 14. we no longer have names. scott, that 14 ones that's on the left and 14 to select on the right foot. since why that makes some sounds torment him to this day. and this is meant to crash metal metal each month. i get this, i want to do it. now the thing will probably, should i just okay, it'll be loud. but the worst memories are of this room. the position of the tenders must, must have been confined to the dock cell for nights on a day off. so nobody told me why was that there wasn't even the toilets in this out
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from one to the always have to knock and i would law from monkey from outside and refused to let you go see that was the worst period for me to pause after 4 months in custody, the trial began. they all received prison sentences. on the day of the verdict, they saw each other and their parents for the, for is time since their arrest. the winchester marked up is the 1st time we saw each other and the parents with that goes no crying, of course that i was the 1st contact with on power and the 2nd much in the more document to at the end, my mother was allowed to help me for them and she told me she was proud that i was being held as a political person and not the criminal going to of anna was also a political prisoner. he is still traumatized. he was imprisoned for distributing leaflets and writing slogans on buildings. one night and 1962,
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the stars the arrested him for the cook because an i'm just getting light. people were looking i felt above low as being arrested. my young life was over for the time being. that's when i ended up here that 37 months as well. it's a loan of cos. it was pretty hot because you have absolutely nothing. i'm pulling that you can cause a handkerchief. nothing personal. nothing or. yeah, old for you. 23 care was taken to ensure that the prisoners could not see each other. little on speaking a traffic light system showed when someone was returning from interrogation. then all the other cells stayed closed. the only communication between the prisoners was via the toilet pipes and knocking signals the
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even that was stopped, the stores he invented an interference transmitter, the early interrogations were fruitful, but overtime became more settled. historian tyco norman has researched the styles these methods extensively as a nuisance to guy on the ultimate. now we have it from quite reliable sources that physical violence played a greater role in the 1950s then in the 60s, seventies and eighties. that's because the interrogation process had become more professional funding. there was more and more academic training for a new generation of interrogate, or some of them are gonna help them in the week. and that's one to knock woods when the torture you are referring to is called light torture, which includes sleep deprivation, highest applying psychological pressure so that the scars didn't show on the skin,
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but remained in the mind in the psyche. this went on until the 19 eighties and of course, always depended on how co operative the accused was during interrogation. and deb, before the end of funding for the aim, was always to get a confession looks. candler went through counts list interrogations. during his guided tours at the museum, he tries to give young people a sense of it, a scott, this was an interrogation run through a 2 or 3 of these range that will need the entire guy to stop here. there was an emergency switch down here and he could press the prisoner of the head, jumped across the tablets in which as far as we know, nothing happened. and there was a job to take the cross after the job and spent it on the chat. then you dropped your pants
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and sit down on the top. you have to run fuel pump back and forth from side to side on the trough, and stand up and fold the truck and put it back in the job. it was very important to preserve body sense. so sniffer dogs could find people later. records of the interrogations have been kept. that's a very strong navigation. we're not to let you on these things. we already told you it's noon that we have the evidence. i talked about today at the start of the whole thing, you know, have the opportunity to briefly respond to this occupation. do you admit it or do you not submitted? i did not submit it. in the fall of 1989, the people brought an end to the g. d r. the stalls we began destroying thousands
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of files on ged or citizens and its offices. when word of the spread people set off for bouts, sinners caused it to stop the destruction. the on december 5th, 1989 fritz lee preferred from west germany was visiting his family and president. he heard on the radio that people had gathered at the styles, the headquarters, english, raised and several 1000 citizens have occupied the office for state and security. a new forms of focus person has appealed to those press and not to use violence. and they quickly packed his video camera and drove to the scene that comes with a view on an office. to the extent, suddenly a young man climbed onto the container office, standing on putting a foot masking tape over the blinking red lights on my camera suit and told me i was a perfect target. this knife as he is on the soft fits,
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i looked up. i'm so people on the rooftop loudecker's done. i don't know if they were snipers out of my heart. nearly stars be it. but i suddenly realized that what i was doing wasn't exactly sikes. i got the guns on get fairly close together. the call for a peaceful riley in front of the stalls. the headquarters came from the new forum and the group of 20 hair bed wagner, who later became dressed in his 1st democratically elected mayor, played a leading role at the time because i'm studying his food. i'm for me to talk, i know what your thoughts asked me if i was prepared to register a demonstration with him in front of the state security building complex. that's your and submitted. that was my greatest moment of fear, complex desktop seizure height. that's why the moment that goose, honest up until then we had always done everything at the monday protests to ensure
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that no one left the demonstration to the styles espouse you through it. so the 2 of us went to the based and radio station. shortly before 12 we asked the editors to pass on a message to the people of today's that they should keep their radios on the job. and they wouldn't be an important announcement in half an hour or so ago. and then we took turns at the typewriter and wrote the call for a demonstration. and it actually went out over the radio at 1235 after the new office buildings. and we had never thought of occupation interest of all to have just done the house and because they had already painted the wall by 5 pm and is they trying the wall ready to jump to the other side? i was very afraid of what would happen next. if you get some time to shot to me and then like a miracle, the gate open from the inside in front of him, we were pushed from behind. we had to go into the darkness showed that
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goes on the bus. i was afraid things would get out of hand that it would turn violence that people would be lynched or that this dog would shoot. speech came down the bill of lading sconces really confusing. nothing was search. and then we were pushed from behind a move faster and faster at the front and came into the inner courtyard and from there into the home, whose friend doughty done in deeds on the spot. of course, those 5000 people couldn't all fit into the hole just to his eyes who 9 dissolve food and paisley, the 5 more. moving along the guy $137.00 locks 2 to schedule the same price walk is calm of an issue. but the discussion didn't go the way the major general wanted jovially staggered home or your husband for this going to talk to somebody about this man who was used to power was confronted with questions from ordinary citizens. now he was being
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interrogated, asked his name and rank. everything went wrong for him that evening and the crowd insulted him. spit at him, kicked him. he went to his needs. i was worried that he might be knocked down and trampled to death to tom booth. is been with him, i was partly responsible for the call. i didn't want the general to die either. that's it. so i stood in front of him to protect him from fits and i walked a few feet so he could walk up right again to sort of, you know, hopefully school going to talk to. and then he placed his pistol on the table tish that was the surrender of the priest, installs the administration for all to see as the took place, the english gets off to the greatest danger seemed to have passed away. but at about half past 11, a group split away and told me they were going to break up the k g
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b to be when he gets news and bidding khaki be all habit, wagner did not go to the k g b on and get like a surprise, he only learned what happened there. the next day, i see mazda, they rang the bell to get in. what sort of dog a guard was, a machine gun was standing there, and out came a man in civilian clothes to do that. they assumed he was protein, which he later confirmed, specially this would have to gain. and he told the demonstrators that the guards had orders to fire on trust passers. i'm going to in financial smells like him, home to my home. he told them to go home and they did have to go, but donald, come on in the weeks and months that followed civil rights activists took over the styles. the offices ensuring that surveillance videos, files, documents, and audio recordings were saved from destruction. as a set of the gun,
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dustin baton, and 7 twice. it is well known from friends and relatives. items for state security might serious intrusions into people's private lives and very many cases. so not when each lot of mine and i believe that we should take the opportunity to put an end to us taking the ignite d as in to an end to, to provide people kept coming to the stalls, a headquarters hoping for a chance to see their files as well. yeah, i wasn't present here for 15 months and went out there on what charge attempted defection. how much on this one was that from $69.00 to $71.00? is it how were you treated as arden correct? properly i would say, but coldly. 4 and a half months of solitary confinement without justification. and it was very, very hard. 10 days and the whole. it's without a window without a blanket soup only every 3rd day and doesn't talk on the super duplicate. but the
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point is not how it was bus and why i was there for a whole month just because i want it to move away. you know, by monday, making seen way to the building was open to the public for the 1st time in 1994, establishing a museum and memorial here was an obvious step in 1997 about snares. plaza dressed in memorial association was found at henry cross is its director as defined almost quinton volta and the association was found it and it was a mix, a former person, some people who was simply interested in the top and also dismissed as a result of municipal on the bi as well, many just found just impossible to process the g d all here i had all gone to remember what happened was here, plus you to create a memorial to does here in the good, thanks to the interest in since then visit our numbers have increased yearly school
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classes or groups and more and more from west germany. most of all say goodness, fuel must on regularly lead tools myself. kaufman. cumulative always have very positive experiences, especially with young people in the same age as we were, we were imprisoned, done, or it's always a pleasure on the website to share funds because you see a resume for months. now when you talk about it, it's not just about present experiences and bad things off the phone with also about how young people are you home selves. no way. when you 1st think about your life, you want to stand on your own 2 feet and then try wrong. that comes on the to a set your independent agencies. and that's something that very much concerns young people today as well. so thinking about what they all like when they want to come, but they want to do with their lives. what they're supposed to do, at least one was issued invoice. the invoice was due on the, on fund where people helped us diesel that join us in to see what is on a building with 2 faces once. bad and cruel. the other helpful the people
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working here. now recognize this more than anyone. as a sean sync up is moved, is the start when i started here, there was only the staff, the president's proposal is not the big building that now covers 48000 square feet, good investors and we developed it altogether and all that big. and that's the other side of the place that the key it is a really lively meeting place. and most of the people who lived through it all field and or as to their families. but the young people who come here the, the visitor groups and the tourists also feel it wants to show that is a very special characteristic of the space. and that's what this friendly openness, combined with memories of what happened to your height of the survivors. the people who risked and lost their own liberties fighting for freedom. those are the 2 faces and that makes the work very exciting side. of course, sometimes it's also very sad and much going on, but above all good feedback encourages us to continue with some of the woods. this feedback to come to for the people who were held here, placed outside,
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changed sometimes dramatically. sometimes more suddenly, the material schlosser left the g d r and returned after reunification. to shop the sun life meant as i saw it from a fall and was a bit upset when the whole came. that label amended them. why imprisonment back them have been from the think the off, but now i'm over. it is part the new stable rec, eberhardt hawes are and clouds. schumann resumed their studies and remain dressed and looks. candler became a teacher but left for the west and 1987. the 2 returned after reunification. this was the phone. you must experience might be more mature and a much better person as a have to conform to the g. d often which we have to ensure until we left the 90 sickness, the types of doing most of this. but and so it was bob,
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those are michelle jo, too has left the fear and despair of that time behind as they each have been writing in a sense i have forgiven them mission, but it doesn't affect me anymore. ready and i'm glad of that. otherwise i wouldn't be able to lift the way i do now shift today. but today, the former study offices are apartments. those who move in here do not fear the state. they only know the ministry of state security from stories. the children play next to the barred windows. if the former president the stalls, he is no more than a reminder of the time when just the desire for freedom. ready could land you in prison the
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the to many visitors is straining communities and the environment, the c o 2 emissions by cruise ships are a major problem. can tourism be curb the house economic loss is made into them in 30 minutes on d. w. and for the conflicts own, with tim sebastian in the early hours of february 24th just over 2 years ago. are
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