to join us for an exciting exploration and everything in between. this is a video and audio production, 5 d w. i hope video with unit the nato is celebrating its 75th anniversary in the shadow of unprecedented challenges. just as alliance leaders were gathering. russia bombarded a pediatric hospital in chairs, chilling and wounding dozens of children and profiting ukraine's president to renew his please. for additional care defense systems. whether such support will be forthcoming. even if donald trump for to return to the white house, is just one of the doubts worrying nato members. the alliance is bigger than ever. but does that make it stronger, or potentially more divided? can 32 a member states maintain that united front against oppressors?

are question today, nato, at 75 more allies, less unity, the hello and welcome to to the point. it is a great pleasure to greet our guests. mike has quite leads the department of defense economics at the military academy of this with federal institute of technology. great to have you with us. raphael us is a policy fellow at the european council on foreign relations is work focuses on security and defense in the euro, atlantic area, and christy wright. she joins us from washington. she is a member of the governing council of the german council on foreign relations, formerly led the prestige as yet the stone and the foreign policy institute and is

now with the international center for defense, secure and great to have you with us, christy as well. and marcus, if i may begin with you, uh, that attack that we just saw in, in the pictures its uh, prompted an outcry, of course, amongst the alliance members. it also prompted denial from russian president vladimir pushing. the question is whether the newest pledges of air defense support for ukraine, whether ukraine can really count on that going forward. the same thing is that this has become the new normal russian war crimes happen every day. and this is just a very stock example of what happens every day. so would you crane really needs is add defense because it has to little systems at this time to defend both the front and the cities. and so i think it's a rights step in the right direction. um to,

to allocate more patriot systems to prevent these types of war crimes from happening again. can you cry and be sure it's going to get them know? well, i think the pictures were pretty harsh. i'm pretty memorable of what russia is capable of. and the dresser has absolutely no scruples to, to act against international humanitarian law. so what, what other option is there, as rough as i'm mentioned, rush, it denied responsibility for the attack on the children's hospital. how plausible is it that this was not intentional? and is it possible that russia even timed this attack to coincide with the beginning of the nato summit? i think there's sufficient evidence now as that was another case of russian war crimes, including going back to girls need to a level and to the full scale invasion since february 2022 that that this was a russian attack and that it was targeted and timed to deliver a specific message to underline that nato is somewhat important. um, uh, but uh,

if you look at russian convocation and then on the once i do have the lines of denials. on the other hand, you have celebrations of this new very atrocious attack. you know that the russian mission to the united nations in new york recently tearing the security council put chicken key if on the, on the menu um to celebrate the most recent meeting off the console of the suspicious standard russian practice and it, christy, you wrote this week as the leaders were down to ring in washington on x, that ukraine is absolutely critically important to europe and security. are nato and europe doing enough to ensure that ukraine doesn't succumb to the russian attacks? or does that approach that they're taking so far add up to too little, too late. the nato and the allies are currently doing enough for your trying to be able to,

to defend itself and prevent any major further advances of russia. but as we are seeing, they are not doing enough to enable you're trying to win the war and they're not doing enough to secure sufficient a protection off of the print in skill. yes. so the limits about the allies are think on the assistance or have you patrick, good costs to classes. i talked to somebody, so i think we saw a number of practical steps that are positive for you print some further pharmacies of assistance. assurances of the long term commitments of mate. so think nice. so he's very clearly tying it so i'm trying to get it to the end. it's oh, sure. the, to the fights of defining this war. but still, i would say we are talking about positives and we are going to take a look at some of those measures that were agreed on and at nato unity as

a whole with 2 new nordic members. the alliance is now bigger than ever before stretching from the atlantic ocean to the baltic sea. but does that also mean it's stronger? opening the summit, us president joe biden insisted that the allies are united, but that unity could be short lived if donald trump wins the upcoming us election. 90000 soldiers, nate who wants to demonstrate that strength with the largest maneuver since the end of the cold war, a response to the russian invasion of ukraine. the us remains the cornerstone of nature. so with a total of $1350000.00 troops, it provides more than 40 percent of all native faucet. it also acts as a age of financial backed up, investing more in defense than all of the allies combined. this year it's expected

that 9 of 30 to nature countries weren't even meet the target 2 percent g d p contribution, including spain and belgium. this highlights how different the allied members to see if the threats of proofs of poland leads with the contribution of move in full percent and the baltic states also investing heavily into the nature of budgets. the alliance's team is crucial for the protection of the eastern flank, money weapons personnel. according to the latest estimates, the current, $32.00 nato states will spend a total of around $1.00 trillion yours on defense this year. a record amount spot is this and know how strong is nature's defense. how great is it to turn to potential? let me pass that question straight over to you. rafael. how great is the potential of nato to really ward off the kind of aggression that we did just see natal has

become larger. it's now another lines of $32.00 with the sweet and joining already of us here. um, it's also becoming stronger and the decisions that the heads of state and government took at washington are moving in the right direction, i think. but the requirements also increasing significantly in some respects. and that requires the continued move forward to meet the demands that the domain specific regional, specific defense plans. unlike anything we've seen since the end of the cold war being translated into forces, capabilities, infrastructure and stop pulse and, and that's where the rubber hits the road. you say it's stronger, but the fact is, as we heard from christie, is that what the alliance is doing now? are the members of the lines in a to itself is not a party to that conflict. is what, what's being done right now is not enough to ensure that you, what, when this war would you say to europe, and they don't have been too intimidated by putting stress. but there are

essentially a central approach is basically too little, too late. to some extent, i would agree with you there. again, nato is a, is a consensus organization. and a nato didn't organize ukraine support for the longest time, only moving in that direction. so far it depended on the leadership of the united states. and to a large extent, also on the leadership of, of germany. some other countries have been moving foster, including most prominently the baltic states portland, and delivering certain capabilities to ukraine. france and the united kingdom have provided long wind striking, which is to create and we're seeing restrictions being lifted more and more for the was on russian territory to target russian military capabilities and infrastructure there. but i agree that that we're moving to sal and not at the scope that's required. and christy is a to report, ended with the question, is it enough to deter russia and the question would be, in your own case, you come from the baltic? is this current approach enough to deter a russian attack on poland and the baltic?

republics, many people say they're at the top of putting some list. if you can lose this, this where would you agree as it is so work in progress and what is important to stress as the our prime minister color speed yesterday. any attack against one i like is an attack against me. so as a whole. uh now we have the new defense plans which are approved to last year. so somebody in the us and there is work going on with the implementation of these plans. and in that regard, the current to somebody or is of course, discussing ways to ensure that there are sufficient to capabilities the manpower arms to actually make these plans credible and implemented fully. so it is possible later can do it. but as we see,

the issue of increasing defense spending a strengthening dollar defense, industrial capacity, it is a difficult one politically and it is moving ahead slowly. and at the same time, we are speculating about how quickly and to what extent a russia is able to reconstitute to it's mandatory. so that to it might actually of in future be capable of challenging one of the allies. let me pick up on a couple of those points, starting with the question of some countries spending more than others markets. in fact, many of the countries in the alliance do now meet the 2 percent target, but some are significantly over and a few are also still behind is donald trump, trump actually right when he says that there should be penalties for the laggards. while he was in 2016 because we then we had 5 countries out of the uh,

the 29 members that match that 2 percent go spending of the gross domestic product . so things have become better since them. but i do stress time. and again, the pledging money is not equivalent to military capability, and that's what has to be produced for the future. and that means i'm doing 30 years of appeasement and doing 30 years of europe and policy that sold. oh, well, russia will eventually move into a freedom and democracy direction that can be a common ground with russia. there can be no such thing. russia has become an imperialist state again, and it will try to extend its influence into western europe. and all we can do right now is to the, to that imperialism just speaking of laggards. let me ask you how you see germany. the chancellor of germany made a historic speech right after the russian invasion of ukraine, promising that germany would finally punch. how did it can not equate when it comes

to defense and security, but has germany truly delivered or is this biggest economy in europe? still a laggard. well, i must say germany has done a lot for ukraine in terms of support in terms of the delivery of weapon systems. but if you look at it, and in terms of that gross domestic product, the other states that have done much more, including the very small baltic states. so i would say there's a difference between, again pledging money and putting military capability on the ground. and i think that is what ultimately john and policy has to be evaluated against will they deliver on military capability and not just the money. and that's, that's, it relates to both supporting ukraine and rebuilding the bonus. and raphael, let me ask you about a few of the things that donald trump has had to say. i mentioned his remarks about the laggards. he actually went on to say that he would tell russia to do whatever it wants with those that don't pay up. do you think it's just lester, or would you say it's quite possible that he will deliver on that threat?

look, i think donald trump is a very erratic personality. it's the deep on certainty. that's the problem. we've had some reports from people around time that as a agenda sort of forming in his circles in his orbit. um to shift the burden of defending the euro atlantic area to europeans. that's something that europeans are becoming increasingly aware of. they are aware that the, you need to play a bigger role that they need to european nice nato and many ways ultimately do s, as is irreplaceable, as the political and military debt and the alliance. but that's the things that your opinions can do more off and can do better. and i think the summit communicate shows a path towards moving in the right direction. and now as macros, clubs said it's about implementing those decisions and, and that's where, again, the rubber hits the road, put things, things on the table. christy that plan that raphael just referred to, is sometimes called the nato door meant plan. it's

a plan of one of the think tanks that's been advising. donald trump, that essentially says us wouldn't have to leave nato altogether or to enforce an ice invitation to stats. it could simply recall the, your american commander of the forces in europe or possibly stopped contributing to nato's budget. how much tension did you pick up at the summit, on the sidelines of the meeting in regard to a possible radical shift in the us will, should trump be elected? it is impossible to predict what the potential of done by the ministration will actually do regarding the nature of course the this has been good discussed, but i can also say there is a degree of difference between the debates we are having in the east implant

countries ending ukraine in comparison to the western european countries thinking the implant countries, um, the emphasis is more on the need to maintain a strong transatlantic link no matter what, no matter what would be the next, the president. and this is what we are preparing to do. also the nordic countries are placing a very strong this is not one strengthening of not only the contributions in nature, but also the bi lateral ties to the us. because we see that he's not capable alone of replacing the contribution of us anytime soon. and also what is a more emphasized in very simply countries and especially ukraine. is this dissatisfaction with what's made so has done thus far? of course, a lot has been done since february 2022, but we kind of say that we are,

for he fully satisfied and confident that to me is always doing enough. so the fact that to trump is pressing for your up to do even more. does have a such a positive impact here. marcus, christie had mentioned earlier on defense industrial policy in europe. in fact, the last e u commission did take some measures to try to reinvigorate the defense industry in europe. but basically, are they just baby steps on speaking of 30 years of policy failure? we we once all believed in the illusion that the war was over. it pro or oh yes, that it probably was never over. but the thing is, um, there are no more physical capabilities in europe, and they have to be recreated right now. and that, that concerns both the production of, of all my vehicles. uh, but especially of um, an issue of calls about the rate i'm an ocean in particular and that has to be rebuilt. and for the time being, people are trying to to get ammo from no matter where south korea from bucket stone,

from any country that's still produced on and at the same time trying to, to reinvigorate their own production of facilities. and i think that is changing right now, but of course it will take a number of years until that industry is at the level where it can really out produce russian really quite briefly, if you would, because i do want to talk about the longer term future but russia has put its entire economy on a war footing. does that mean that it can stay in the war against ukraine indefinitely? well, when you speak about the entire economy of russian, we still have to think about that. that corresponds to approximately the economy of the netherlands and belgium combined. and nato's complete military capabilities about 15 times in convention times what russia has. so we, and in europe who are often prone to the illusion of, of an old niger, russia that cannot produce at all it's, it's not that simple. but of course, russia has never demilitarized to such an extreme extent that europe has. and it's,

it's about rebuilding that capability. let's look to, at the future of a 75 year old alliance. that faces not only unpredictable conflicts in ukraine in the middle east, but also a shifting geo political landscape. and a change in leadership, a fine with the new secretary general to be netherlands. mark was a, as the former long term prime minister of the netherlands. he's regarded as an experienced foreign policy expert, someone who represents stability and continuity products are very proud to manage. it also feels like a huge task and big shoes to fill from stilton also would make any further comments until he takes office, but he doesn't tell us back. he's described the so called russian peas con as an absolutely insane. the dumpster politician also has a reputation as a trump whisper ref will someone who knows how to obtain the former president at

the munich security conference. this february also said that your opinions would have to work with any us president or in his words, whoever's on the top floor. before i begin to hold her, might have just of as a group therapist for the allies in europe. the debates about ukraine's admission to nato will also be a roadblock. since russia has issued a warning that this would cross or red line is nato. ok. so these new challenges and let me ask you to answer that question, raphael, but picking up on one point in particular because amongst the challenges that nato faces is an increasingly powerful china. and in fact, the summit of final communicate is a call out basically of tried his influence, including his influence in providing military support to russia. so if we look at the behavior of se hungry, slovakia, turkey,

all of which maintain brother friendly relations with china, would you say that this alliance is up to the task? i mean, the countries that do have frontier relations with, with trying on the political level, there are other countries that have been kind of like dependencies on china. so china is certainly a systemic challenge as nato has described it. and that's for 2 concepts. $12022.00, the summit communicate has found which that is more explicit describing the ton of change, but going beyond china ended support for russia in this war against the crime. that's also talking about iran and north korea. so we're really see consolidation oft as ex, as that, that presents a problem to the alliance and that they need to deal with an access that recently has been called the excess of upheaval as opposed to the old term access of here for marcus, the outgoing secretary, general, a young starting back says that the most urgent challenge at the moment is maintaining support for ukraine. and they don't now plans to put that support under

a special command right here in germany, rather than the u. s. lead structure. it has had till now. does that essentially make the support trump proof for this? well, i would say it's institutionalizing what has already been happening since the russian . the question on the putting all the v spot in places and putting the international don't call the nation center in one central command. and i think that's a step in the right direction because it shows long term commitment. i wouldn't say it's necessarily from proof because trump can still do a lot of stupid things. so making a trump proof is, i think, an institutional challenge for nato as a whole. and christy, one of the authority is challenges facing nato, has been what to do about ukraine's membership about making ukraine a member of the alliance. germany. and the us have been quite hesitant to poland and the baltics in favor. the final communique has sort of squared the circle with

a reference to nato's membership to you and ukraine's membership. because being your reversible is that enough? or if there's a, again, a little house that the for what's also in this regard understand the expectations where much lower than they were one year ago in the building is when this issue was okay. debated now, it was clear that this language of the reverse ability is the maxime of best can be achieved. and i think it's is also important to stress the as the inspector general's stoker birth to just the data. at this point, it is more important to look at the actions of the alliance and the real practical things happening with the strengthening, the role of nato strengthening the interoperability between ukraine and a. so also the long term commitments of assistance. but there again, we could see that the, the southern very initial proposal to creates

a 100000000000 long term commitment of age a was not successful. so now we have a commitment of $40000000000.00 for the next year. and then from there on just the kind of for the language about the long term commitment to us. we know the political and searching to make this commitment to fairly a bit shaky. so marcus, summing up and coming back to our tide, or whether a 75 year old nato is fit for the future. we're looking at us unpredictably bill with the russian re bunch is a chinese ambition. and also some allies opportunism in the face of all of that. would you say nato is up to the challenge? i would say the point is to look to all around systems and to remember why nato was founded to hold on to the test. so read expansion in europe and well, replace soviet with russia and you have the business case again,

i think it's about the terms. it's about realizing watches apple. and i think that is a very good topic for the reflecting of to 75 years. if you're still relevant and if you can still do it, i hope think ralphio, it is a very different uh, global geo political constellation. now then it was, then what do you think is nato up to the demands? i think it is. i think this momentum going over the direction needs to be accelerate, that it needs to be expanded in scope, but let's mean have gotten 5 years for the 80 as an advisory, and then we can take a look at the rear view mirror and christy just in one sentence, you've talked about a lot of half steps on the part of nato, do they add up to the whole a whole or not? but if the question for the future and faith of searching the does have the resources to move ahead to take care of its tasks, of collective defense, or the question is also thoughts, political results where i think good. the 2nd half is philip. it's me think thank

you very much to all of you for being with us and thanks to our viewers. look at our youtube channel. tell us what you think the

the, the january 2021. the attack on the united states capital. thousands of people took pods and among them, some of these manipulative voices are a former high ranking. military leaders wanted us veterans tended back from democracy. and what does this mean for the upcoming an extra the enemy within in 15 minutes, on the w. lots makes sure that the

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. this is the domain use live from berlin. joe biden defined in the face of growing pressure to have bonds in his re election campaign. the us president tells the world's media. he's the best qualified person to beat donald trump and insists he wants to finish the job in the white house. also coming up united states as to station long range, cruise me. so i was here in germany, berlin and washington saved the deployment, demonstrates their commitment to nato understanding europe. russia is considering a military response, the

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