also forgiveness. i'm sure. guardians of trees, julianna's sons, and the dark secrets of war starts july 27th on d, w. the politics gone brutal. the shooting against donald trump is another highlight of the trends towards political violence in the us and europe. the pictures of the blood stains, donald trump have already become iconic for his supporters. violence is driving radicals to what they consider the last resort to silence politicians just like here and you are with the attempted assassination of so back us prime minister roberts feet. so how do we get their elections like the ones in france also show a shift towards the extremes, to the left and to the right. the center is losing ground onto the point we ask from insults to murder and you, brutality and politics. the

welcome to this week's to the point, i'm how you, how to get us and then i'll meet today's guest table model. um is the berlin correspondent for the friendship business daily lives. a cool? yeah. came is i, it is a freelance journalist, a political analyst, and honorary professor at a french university, sears and religion and sariah ser. heidi nelson is an american journalist and the host of the common ground berlin podcast. 12, you're welcome. thank you for being here. and i'd like to start with you sariah, what was your 1st reaction when you heard about the shooting against donald trump? was it just foreseeable steps and this political bones? um, it was shocking. i mean, one would argue because of the gun culture that it's, it's a common thing, but i definitely, i mean i, i was fortunate enough i guess, or unfortunate enough to wake up at 1 am our time here in germany and was able to

see it sort of on live as, as it were. so it was quite shocking. and do you think it was foreseeable or state, or in any way? shocking, why in it? well, there's so much rhetoric about violence. he would think that one wouldn't be shocked anymore. but i guess i didn't think it would be him who would be targeted. certainly a lot of the targets we've heard a lot about media. us have been from the democratic side of the aisle or their spouses, the case of nancy pelosi. um so yeah. so that i think it was the fact that it was him that it was so open at an event like that that there were so much secret service and that the 20 year old to get that close to fire off an a r 15 rifle. york. we've also seen assassination attempts here in europe most recently again. so back is by minister robert feed. so how do you think these 2 cases compare? and i think them basically they are quite different. um i, i think uh, i pod from the gun culture which is not that of developed in europe still the best of politicians. i think the background is very different. you have

a different aggressive, a political language which is much more seems to be much more aggressive of the states as a political debates. but as in the, if you have an increase of this and you of as well. but i think in the united states it has a lot of division, and i think i can't imagine luckily that there will be that's a summation of a candidate for the private and so for the drum and private and stuff for the french president in europe. but we have seen attempts to assault and even murder candidates in germany as well. not in that high political level, but now others. yeah, i don't know if they yeah they but they, i think have a lot more router background. i think it's much less violent still in comparison with the united states. and of course you'll never find the actual things in the early ninety's of other minnesota gemini as well, but the happens as well. but i think it's not that they just, i think in,

in the debates here as in the united states, the western democracies are seeing more and more violence, but also more willingness to vote for extreme political movements to the left and to the right. do you think those 2 developments go hand in hand? yeah, i mean probably, but what we see is that the debate is becoming more and more polarized. and the capacity of people to talk with the, to the way, if they, if they belong to. um, you know, the opposite box is, is, is getting less and less here and, and, you know, to some extent you can, you can see that the, the rhetoric of the political part is pretty additions, has to be on us become more and more aggressive. and you, you never know to, you know, how far it would go with its stuff was, was, or will it go into a deep like in the, in the states what we've seen in the more recent political companion funds we had

for 2 elections. you open elections and parliamentary elections lately. we did see an act of violence against petitions and to an extent that is probably new. you didn't come to to that sort of violence like against him. but surely there is a trend in that direction. time certainly seem to be changing now non violent communication, maybe a buzz word on social media and podcast, but apparently not in politics. democracy it seems, is increasingly becoming a fight using words and using weapons. shots fired on camera. us presidential candidate, donald trump narrowly escaped an assassination during a campaign rally. slovakia, head of government, robert feats so is hit by several bullets leaving him critically injured. and the brutal attack against german s p b m e p. mateus, eka interrupted, was literally

a slap in the face of democracy attacks instead of arguments motivated by hate and politicians become the boogeyman. meanwhile, the political center is suffering like recently in france. many voters rally behind parties on the political french, the extreme left new popular front and the extreme right. national rally and in germany, berlin is nervous about the upcoming state elections in the eastern part of the country where the right wing populace a f. d, with its hateful slogans are leading in the polls. extreme politics is the political center becoming increasingly irrelevant. the people, why do you think it is that what we would call a same moderate inclusive political message just doesn't seem to be working anymore . well, i think the, this message has come,

i'm rudely from the fault is from the center center last or sent a ride. and that is a positive which, which has been on the power over the last decades. and, and obviously when, when, when pop out you, you try to bring solutions to sometimes complex problems and solutions on the simple warehouse properly spot is on the fault, right? so far left would tend to offer and i found apparently simple solutions and i think people long do that sort of discourse and, and it's a swift and simple solutions which they feel they don't have really coming from pollution on the bodies. so that's where the one explanations when explanation and, and but down many, many factors why people are, we tend to, to, to vote for extreme or bodies. and that's one of them is cost of living. one of

them is also in migration, a secure routine or that plays a role and it's difficult to know what comes to us, but truly the center, right? unless bought is a more and more challenged in or west and democrats is speaking of those west or democracy, you are an expert on russia, and you wrote a book called the german russia illusion rush. i took advantage of the trump shooting and immediately used it to point out what they considered the downfall of the west. do you think this type of violence is a symptom of liberal democracies? i guess it's, it's becoming more and more of a symptom. because of course, the, the democratic debates have fundamentally changed with, with the social media of internet communications. and we are still not very how this can as role abused by a for him post like bush or like 29 this as low as he could anymore today. but it's still difficult to really become a valve at the end of costs of this weaknesses of democracies. most of democracies

provide solutions a exploited by putting for instance. and i think this is a, the big challenge as well for the establish bodies of the centers. and the less that the right to really couldn't convince the people in europe about the possibility of solutions and to talk to point to the public as they have the policy in particular at germany. i don't know, in other states is much more to hide the problems because it's too difficult to explain them and to lose voltage in that actions. and i think this is a key challenge for this type of spot is really to come to a point to point to the problems and to really try to solve that problem of the last government say that particular drum, he had been to hide the problems, not to be enforced as whole and do you think that can also cause this aggression by voters and the citizens in so that's because then the people need to and trust in the people and the government to the security for it's as one of the problems of

the local, we use the communal problems of migration that if the, the parties to establish problems that even though they're ready to, to, to point to them and to, to understand the problems apart from solving them is already a big cause for this, this content of the people election and elections and prepare a before the populace. a simple answers for job about the house, right. and coming back to the us, the trump shooting is quite complex. it's because it was not an obvious by the supporter attacking the republican candidate from what we know. so far, how do you assess the way republicans and democrats have actually dealt with this and said, well it's the usual equation where one side is blaming the other. i mean, the republicans right away. we're talking about the fact that this young man had given $15.00 to some progressive cause that was not abundantly clear. he also came from a quote unquote mixed family where i think the mother was

a democrat and the father was republican in a community that was well to do. it just shows a lot of the frustrations. and i think the problem in america is that social media does drive us to some extent, the political discourse. discourse drives us to some extent, but everybody invite invents their own facts. it's immediately as use to polarize the situation. and this was no different, even though a recent survey show that people are saying all the political discourses becoming too violent, 84 percent saying it's time to ratchet it down. but then what they actually do it action is something else. do you think of all those calls for unity that we saw from joe biden, for instance, and how there are full additions also in the republican party? we're not really that. honest. then do you think they still the self? i think they, you know, i mean, the republicans, i don't know who said there were who's calling for unity, but i, i don't really hear that at the convention, and we're back to landing joe biden, using a phrase that was perhaps unfortunate that could be used to show that this,

that somehow ronald donald trump, sorry, should be targeted. i. so yeah, i don't think they're necessarily being honest. i think it is something you want to say, because you think it's what people want to hear, but then it's back to business as usual, which is progressively, or i should say, it's as a re graphic, you know, it's, it's not a, it's not a healthy, healthy thing in a democracy, it certainly isn't. uh, if we take a look at this little i can uh or slow that example. uh you like robert, it's over the prime minister handled the situation similarly, and it's saying that it was political rivals, the media, and even george soros were responsible for the attack that he suffered. is there a way of capitalizing on such a sensitive event? i guess the cause of agents are too good. capitalizing on that the supports i'm the frustration of, of, of the, the victims and of cause. he can, i mean it's the best examples, not from hallways, if exporting of the situation and pcc, but really brilliant. then usually because of the situation of causing this iconic

picture of the flat on the face and showing the fees to, to, there was tape the bill to fight. i mean, this is probably the best part of your football game that you can can have for the i think this is the same of the other extreme ready capacities the same and would like to again, to make the difference. and in the united states, i think it's more us by the somebody click legalize the republican mall, a fight against the state itself because they, they fight against the deep so called deep states that this, they want to take it back to the political boot. this is, i think, a slightly different in, in europe. this is the more disappointed because this content from its 7 political trouble signal thoughts of laptops, refundable, fundamental challenge to the form of democracy, vc and the lighted states. when we take a look at the example in france, people you already mentioned that at the beginning, france hasn't seen these types of attacks on high level politicians so far,

despite a very strong this content among the french population. why do you think that is what's different there? uh um, i'm not sure we, we, we did have uh there was um, once i finish an attempt on child to go, but it was quite a while ago. 62. but it's, i don't know exactly what it's an interesting question. why such things happen in some countries or not? in other countries? what, what is the full front is known for its capacity to demonstrate go on the street. so that's probably one way to express and uh and uh, and perhaps it helps. but to interestingly be we don't have a significant attempt, as you may have in the states. we don't have the same weapons low either but, but never that as the, the roots of the problem remain. and to some extent, even though there are differences between countries,

they also submit all righty. so, you know, coming us back. so i would say we, we saw in the last election, people who voted for the far right had issues with the cost of living. and that's truly something was a rise of inflation. we so some in other countries. they also had issues with integration, always the feeling of insecurity, but that's, you know, coming to, to many, many democracies. so i have the comment i've heard most after the shooting is trump will now when the election in november there's still a long way to go. but the how do you assess the impact of the shooting and the outcome of the election? well, there's no doubt it is getting him points in, in polls and surveys. and that iconic image that we've talked about a number of times is something that he's going to be able to draw on for the election. certainly we saw a bump for reagan when he was shot, you know, and, and it was a different dynamic. but so that, that does help them, but there's so much in play that. yeah,

that we don't know. we don't know whether joe biden is actually going to step back . now there seems to be some indication that he's thinking about it to some extent i but again, that's still a, any question. we don't know. we don't know the introduction of j. d vance, you know, and what that will have. i mean, there is some popularity there. the goal obviously was to reach to the mega and make america great crowd that is poor or you know, a working class that isn't in that comes from states you know, that will hopefully or, and then with, i think drop this will be for is that, that will cast votes his way so we don't know about, you know, there's, there are still too many unknowns to be able to say definitively that donald trump is going to want. but there is no doubt that the shooting gave him a very, a boost, a big boost. we'll have to look into that future because with or without the shooting, it seems increasingly likely at least as donald trump might return to power in 2025 development. many in europe are concerned about because after 4 years of the 1st trump administration, leaders here know that trump is not exactly

a fan of your or what is donald trump wins the us presidential election. in europe, alarm bells are sounding off because trump never hit as hostility toward the new. during his last term, an office, he called it an enemy of the usa, a brutal trading partner, and worse than china. he's also repeatedly challenge nieto even threatening to leave the alliance. he doesn't want to protect member states delinquent in their payments. trump has even said that russia can do whatever it wants with them. your opinions are also worried about the impact of a 2nd. trump term on the economy for trump, america 1st means a world trade order that prioritize of economic protectionism over a transatlantic partnership. a sense of deja blue is being felt in brussels is a divided europe ready for more donald trump it's time for those. what have

sariah, i'd like to start with you. we've heard the republican national convention and 1st ideas about a possible 2nd trump presidency. what would you expect from a 2nd, trump term with regards to its policy towards the european union? oh, i think the europe is going to be in for a hard time. i mean, i think that the, the pressure on nato is going to be very great in terms of germany. young shabani of i mentioned today, i think of that he, that the germany has to fulfill its 2 percent of gdp obligation to funding it's defense and that is still not there. i think we're going to see also a lot more focus on asia, which is something that people forget that america is not. you know, that the president of relation perhaps is more important to europe, that it is to america. that there is definitely an asia pivot. no matter who's in the white house and that's going to be, i think, more pronounced. i think terrorists are coming. i think it evaluation of the dollar is coming. it's. it's going to be a rocky ride for europe. i'm afraid. iraq,

you right, that requires unity. a table of their opinion and would need to stand united with a possibly hostile you as president. how difficult do you think that will be considering the current political landscape? well, it's, it's, it has been difficult in the past and it will be shortly even more difficult. now, i am not only because, you know, with the policies that will be always tired of and most likely against, grew up. but also because as you're saying that the political landscape is, is become more and more fragmented. and what we see is that in front, which is the 2nd largest economy in europe in union, is it is very unstable, or we don't have a proper government yet. we don't know for how long that we lost it may take weeks if the month before we have a, a full blown government and, and, and that we surely make it more difficult for the opinion and for friends in

germany to find a common language to bridge the coming positions and because we know we, we do have different interests. we, we have common interest, obviously as are your opinion to stand together. but we also have because of all the structure of the economy different an interest in, in, in germany, the kind destry is extremely important for, you know, if you're talking about free trade in front of maybe more luxury goods that so we'll see how that, that combines but truly the fact that the funds is in a very unstable situation. world have not to talk about the upcoming elections in germany in september this year, but also in september next year for the balance and actions where we also have no clue what's going to happen. of course, one leader might be pleased to hear all of this you like we're talking about latimer putting a central figure to talk about when we talk about the future of your what would

a return of donald trump mean for russians? emissions pointing this certainly hoping that from 5th to some extent, make a deal with him and accept the occupations the russian illegal occupations of areas of queen and that he wants to demonstrate his capacity to us. be a peacemaker like you tried before. so this is not very good for the, for your pin policy. and i don't know which extent to put in this is that still many, many directions open it's policy from bill the finally follow after a potential, even the big, the victory of, of a trumpet stood quite crucial business depending upon the voters in only 7 5th springs states and the other, okay? and so this is not, not, not to not to be the key of what mobiles,

the policy of trump, it'll be, and particularly as to, for international policies. so even as male, to put you back, number less independence, the who will be in the election in washington in november. it's finally to find the it's ultimately at stake now that of a gemini, fundamentally, we things it's defense, policy and culture. we still uh uh, leaving the secuity is admitted to the security against, for an address us in germany of us entirely on the burden of to nighted states in the claim of the united states to enhance and to improve for the major capacities of germany. ah, old wall, them 30 is also the fall off the wall. yeah. and we still heightens are behind our so called historical a shame that the name may never be again the great military power due to the cause

of the 2nd blood will. but this is, i'm, is id mentioned overall, and i think for this, and this is a dependency upon a from all buying bill. but for them, they are, as you mentioned, and they off of a asian policy as well as the asian focus much more and pulled to the bottom of fibers, asia, and vive, you know, this, the germany or the put additions notice about they want to avoid the the political debate about the improving of military security. it requires a lot of investment in defense for the european union however, so i, if we listen to donald trump's remarks, for example, he has pledge said he would put an end to the warren ukraine within 24 hours. what do we know about that plan and what a p still that would mean. i think you walk that back a little that, you know, he, he said it might take a little more than 24 hours, but yeah, i think it definitely. i mean, if, if i had to predict, i think it definitely will mean that putting will be able to get some concessions allowed concessions. he needs to be able to say,

face whether he gets to take over the entire country of you crazy, you know, remains to be seen. but it is, it will be very bad news for ukraine. it will be very bad news for you or what happened. in fact, um, and now you can say when since last saturday, the people in germany in front top preventing from more intensively on a possible reaction of done on a tron. and i think that's going quite intensively. indeed, it's all in the making. it's all in the future. we'll see how that goes. we'll be here to discuss it. thank you to all 3 of you for being here today. and of course to you for watching. we'll see you next time, take care by the

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