the ocean comes to the september dw, the germany, it is still in shock after the 9th attack in the western city of so oregon, where 3 people were killed and 8 wounded on a friday night, while families process the grief and hor, questions arise. why is germany subject to these types of attacks? the suspected perpetrator with alleged links to isis came from syria, eluded the german all stories and committed murder. the result heated political debates about the weapon laws, to partitions and the site with all this just days before crucial state elections. on to the point we ask after this oregon nights attack to germany, change its migration policy. the

welcome to this week's to the point i'm have you had, i guess it's good to have you with us. let's meet today's guests. jack up shinla is a terrorism expert and director of the counter extremism project. i mean, the most hobby is a freelance journalist from iraq i'm just returned from reporting in zoning and martin friday is the deputy editor in chief of pens, easy germany, joining us from the city of zurich. call view. welcome. thank you for being with us today. and we have a little bit of a manual today, but we're certainly do our best. i'd like to start with you. i mean, you just got back from zoning and how would you describe the aftermath of this attack in germany? while i saw a city, again, solving a full of anger and also sadness, people asking industry twice and that's happening again in our city. so those and

people are still afraid, especially then they go to the, the, the afraid of the reaction of them. and the other state, a city is full of police and full of the investigation. of course of this is one of the bloody attack and the city happened out and what's what i noticed that some people trying to find an sense from the responsible for electricians. why our law, a strong law, still lots run all. it's still not without a result of preventing that attack. and still, there is a more question, but no answer answers that may come from investigations hands. isis claimed responsibility for this attack. however, german authorities still have to provide clear evidence. how do you as an expert assess the events involving book? i mean in the last couple of years we have seen a very concerned campaign by the slimy stage to again concentrate on terror

attacks brought including in europe including in germany. it is also true that tarzan only functions if you are in the media and dropped a fireplace ends october last year. media reporting has concentrated on how mazda spa and disease in government. and no one talked about. ice is all kind of so they were under pressure to do something. so if you saw that in a, in most count a couple of months ago, we saw a real series of time at the taylor swift concepts. and again, a couple of weeks ago. and unfortunately, now they were successful also here in germany and sony. let's go over to zurich martin, when we hear all of this, germany has rather than regard it as a safe country so far, do you think that the sense of security is changing? a guess apparently it is, or evidently it is, and many people in germany, fear that that the inner safety in germany is

a going down. and you can also see a very huge problem with migration of policy. so if you look at the service of paul's many drums, i'm very concerned about the migration policy of, of the german government. they're not happy with what is happening. there's a lot of if they go migrants flowing into the country last year we had $350000.00 asylum seekers that came into the country. i think this is a very important point to look at. well, certainly built into the aspect of migration. first, we will have a look at what is this is actually doing with the multiple words in crisis. as we just mentioned, the threat posed by the so called atlantic state has someone faded into the background. however, for security experts, it was always clear, the thread has not disappeared, it was just waiting for the right moment. the shock runs deep people and zoning in are stunned. he wouldn't give his site the uncertainty as to why this had

to happen. why innocent people have to die. so i'm looking for why weren't the borders where they were allowed to cross properly controls which these quintal yet . memories of the 2016 attack on the berlin christmas market come flooding back. when 13 people were killed by an eye, a supporter, it was the last major attack in germany that i as officially claimed responsibility for. since then, loan as long as motivated perpetrators have carried out numerous other attacks. last march, a terrorist attack on a concert hall in moscow, russia was allegedly carried out by an affiliate. more than a 140 people were killed. the methods of terror have changed. instead of planning an elaborate attack, the suspected perpetrator used a nice and acted alone. chancellor schultz visited the crime scene and zooming in and promised a stricter gun laws. that's not a capitalist most, that was terrorism,

though it was terrorism against us, all which threatens our lives, co existence, the way we met him. but how can an open society protect itself from terrorism? the, as you already mentioned, that the media has focused on other issues and not putting eyes in the foreground. however, whoever follows the news has also heard that isis has actually, we can, over the years, is that per section wrong? how powerful is it these days? and how much damage kind of causing your well look, i mean, in 2019 the physical expression of these, let me state the kind of that in see around the rock ended. however, since that time, and i see this has actually these seen and the massive growth box the also because we are no longer taking care of the problem, the core of word the stairs, to abrasions operate since 2019 significant reductions of military operations in syria. and iraq since 2021. we collectively withdrew from afghanistan since 2020

feet partially on decisions by the winter and emissions that partially because the military james invest africa asked us to leave. no more ability to put pressure on ice is all kite. i will have incredible amount of fighters money. i can weapons in west africa, so we are no longer fighting terrorism in its core areas and pens. it's not real surprised that of course, the tears in fact in our own countries is increasing because i don't if she hasn't changed the strategy is reagan to waste through a continuous stream of terror attacks. and so of course, now they have more operational freedom in the core areas, more concentration, more energy, more if it's all put towards the extra low tax, including in europe including germany. and of course, they need operators to do those kinds of attacks or performed in here in germany. for example, i'm your, with your, of the people, mainly young man, become radicalized. what do we know about that process in the 1st place and how it

can be prevented? what we, we notice in the last years that the front line against the stomach state has to be shifted to frontier. they took it off to europe more and more through the logical as ation for the internet to fuel platform of social media. the things like tick, tock or facebook or 2 o'clock. and as long as we don't have full access control corporation of the tech companies to find a solution and balancing between the, the ration of the information and the data and also the protect of the society. so if we are not find that's point, we are still going to facing that war only. and so the lead here or there, we will find some back like wolf, like attacked in a, in, as all in good. and it will show us how weak is the security

a people, security, a police and authority here because they are concentrating on the old method to dealing with that and you developed for it. but the terms are also very wary of data protection. do you think they are willing to pay that price? that is the point. i'm not a now calling for, for something to forget all that liberal. a value spots that is a golden middle. we still, we did not find that gold middle between the threats and between also our level of values to protect and that's $12.00, there is a lot of a drop in the security service has been done or should be done to keep the equipment then with more drops and more capabilities to have stronger mod, mulder troops to prevent that at least more than if we take

a look at a police figures and crime figures in germany, it's called the attention that foreigners are over represented in those statistics . what do you think that is and why is it also ignored and public discussions as well? yes. a for and those are over represented in certain prime areas. that's right. and i think it's overlooked because the discussion always is about how do we get these people gender, fear probably. what not about the problems that arise with migration. i think there is. so there's a certain point in the, in the, in the discussion where we do not talk about these problems properly, but this has to shift, this has to change. i think we have to address these problems more ultimately. and of course, we also also have to address more ultimately, what comes with the legal migration and huge numbers because business, that's

a problem that the german government sees very clearly. you just have to look at the pulse, like i said before, and there are some election in the federal states on sunday, and tooling and sec for me. and if you look at the numbers, you see the right wing has treatments. parties like the alternative for germany on the rise, because so people fear that with this huge illegal immigration to the country problems with arise. and i think best this has to be addressed. but the majority of immigrants, if i'm allowed to say, the majority of the make guns are, say, safe people, they are, frankly, they don't want to have that problem. they flipped from that terrible attack in the country, iraq, and see. i think the problem is not that number of the bigger ones and the problems . so how will you can run out of the law, how you use it? an efficient way to prevent that small minority, a taking that's majority make runs as

a hostage and talking in the name. that is the point that may be the point, but it's not the political discourse that we have been hearing the last few days because some even call it a new german refugee crisis. the fact is, since 2020, the number of refugees in germany has once again been rising sharply and the number of illegal aliens is also increasing. the people are longing for europe, and despite having nothing they risk everything, every day people try to flee europe as seen here and say to of the spanish mainland, thousands die every year. for a long time, the eu has tried to stop criminal smugglers and control migration. with little success. last year alone, a member states reported a 20 percent increase and asylum applications. their main destination is germany. a 3rd of all asylum applications are filed here. many municipalities saved throughout their limits and say they cannot accommodate any more people. german border checks

have so far had little success. and it is difficult to deport migrants have committed crimes back to their countries of origin, especially to afghanistan or syria where their safety would be in doubt. tangela schultz of announced once again that he is more determined than ever to deport criminals. have politicians failed to manage migration i'll pass that question right on to you. i'm your hospitalizations failed to manage migration. i think um you, you cannot blame the solutions of that and the government now, because we're, we're, we're dealing with the problem, the long term. we should look back in the last 1015 years. what has been happened in the wrong way? that we're still in this position? i think the, the now government try to make a agreement with some governments, for example, in europe. there were a agreement with iraq government to bring all along a lot of iraqis that i know top right so, so i'll bring that back. but still,

this is the moving of that, a farts or go so slowly in comparison with the numbers of the new mega. and so i think we should look in the, in the bag in the basis of the what we are going to, to accept would like to accept to my guns in which conditions. um and that, and we should talking and discuss it far away from politicians because it, you can see it in the next sunday that's to a theme will be play a big role in the apology. i adina and it's may be far away from the facts on the ground. effects on the ground are always difficult to read and situations of a high emotional stress like we have right now hands. there seems to be this discourse, especially by some of the politicians here, that if germany had strict are migration loss, the attack consoling. and what of never happened? is that so that's

a very complicated document to make up is the no one can argue that everything went well in the process of this particular individual. he was supposed to be expedited back to bulgaria, but of course bulgaria is part of the european union. so if you would have been really determined to conduct the attack in germany, it came to germany once from bulgaria on 2022. there's really no barre. yeah, that would have prevented him from coming back a 2nd time to conduct the attack. so the debate on how we going to apply all loss as far as a migration is concerned how the optimize the procedures and make them more effective for extradition of individuals that not supposed to be here is a really important one. in my opinion, the citizens need to see that that government can function and clearly hear something went wrong. and so you need to rectify this. but do say that this is the only whole primary instrument that we need now to make germany safer against

international terrorism. is simply ignoring how international terrorism works. if this individual has, as many on us have recognizing the internet, the internet is not going to stop with extradition. it's going to continue. we have a permissive environment in the social media for all types of extremism platforms. as i mean, has it not v helping or cooperating with law enforcement? the french authorities felt compelled to arrest the ceo of telecom a couple of days ago because it's not for me is bottom dismissive for crime, major crime tried pornography as well as drug dealing and almost eating. so they have to find a new balance and address these issues as well as issues of extradition, procedures, and migration control. but we also need to talk about the ability of the gym security forces to actually monitor what's going on. and here we have moved very

much into the direction of the protection of the last couple of years. so if you have to fight terrorism here, we'll have to me, ready to fight terrorism. that's decision will be made when you withdrew from the international operations. so if you need to understand that site and then there is more then times and guns and rockets, it has to also be a legal basis for the security forces to act the technology to do so, and the personnel to operationalize that. however, what we are hearing in the political debates all these days is rather the topic off migration. martin, why do you think there's a focus on that topic specifically, despite the fact that we're just hearing that that may not be the solution? and is that even possible to significantly significantly change asylum laws? for example, here in germany? well, 1st of all, i agree that's that one terrorist attack is a terrorist really wants to attack some thing that it is hard to,

to prevent all terrorist attack from happening or, or all from adults, from doing criminal things. i think that's right, but i don't, don't think that that changing migration policy is not effective and it's to look at the police mounts to be off the opposition party. you propose very strict policies. and the last day is the fact that the germany should prevent all illegal migrants from entering the country at the borders of the conclusion. but the european union should be reached. and if it's not, we are going to be reached any propose that germany has the duty and also the right . and so to use that to declare a state of national, the emergency and effectively bar any illegal but migrant to enter the country. and of course, this is a very hard to proposition, and i'm not sure if it's uh, it's going to be working within the legal framework of their european union. and also suggest is just the opposition leader. but i do think that it should look at

the german government. if you look at the ministry of interior is, are you just, you just don't see a certain efforts to prevent the illegal migrants from entering the country. one example i bought a controls immensely. she is always hesitate to, to put in border control. it's an interesting to place. and when she did in the context of to europe and football championship, they were very effective. they, um, the police got hold of smugglers, it prevented criminals from entering the country. it sent a signal to a neighboring states to poland, to the check for public, and they also took care more of their borders when we sent out the signal, but often of the european football championship against the fields or didn't want to keep these border controls in place and i think that the german public, she says very clearly and just these alexis efforts here uh, in the german government. and i think this has to change. but why, if we do want to prevent these populace movements from becoming more and more

powerful in germany, what is the reason for not wanting to keep those border control? so at least what's the reason that that the government has stated as well? she said it's about the european framing of, of cost is right. and she also said that the, that the economy as being has problems when you put in an effective all the controls and nothing happens with the economy. basically, all the, all the trucks were able to angel the country, but affectively many illegal in the trends. and also smugglers were, were effectively enough from entering the country. so it was very effective. so so this, so what nancy phase are stated in the beginning was clearly not about the direct, right. so i do not really know, but i would say that the german government, it's a coalition of the social democratic party. the literal sense of greens do not really one very strict migration policies in place. what they do want is they want

to the realize migration, and you can also see the naturalization more what, which was put in place and the end of june, uh when, when, when it's about um, you know, helping my friends to get to this country. they're really quick in putting policies into place when, when it's about gender and people to enter the country, it can take a much longer time. and i think that's a problem. and i think, yeah, it's a problem because populous movements are on the rise. that's exactly the case as a populace movements of the lights the far right a of the party. i'm your have always defended a discourse that is less prone to accepting migrants into the country. and that has also pledged to the ports, millions of people, um, or at least plans have of have a rise. do you think the traditional parties in germany can actually offer a solution to this pressing problem against a party that seems to get ahold of that sentiment in the population? unfortunately not, i can not see a pro pool and sort of that politicians and,

and then a rights wings. and i still believe that the, that the democratic parties in germany still have possibility to the answer of, that's a, that's a problem in the other way. in the way that they pro, pull a run on the, the, the law on the ground and bought in the same way. also more equipment for the social worker, for the uh, for the mac guns, uh, more control of the for the internet homepage. and also maybe i come back to the control on the border. i am much monitoring the smugglers on the platforms and like tick tock and so on. and so one of them, they say he want to come to germany, i my guns and talking with the smuggler on tick tock and he'd tell them to wait

till the championship in for us. we'll finish. it will be easier for you. i mean, they, you know, what is going on on the ground and this is more of it, this is mean, this is very fun. if you, when you, when you, when you move on the whole, the platform, you will see how weak the low in the germany and how they use that holes. the smugglers to come through. i mean, you need more efficient people. people understand how they think that the smugglers or how they think the magnets and how you can find an answer for that. have one more minute left and i'd like to ask you hundreds of some say that in security is a price that a society that wants to be open and liberal has to pay. do you agree with that assessment? of course, there's always a balance between security and freedom. the question is,

what is that balance and do we have found the right balance here in germany at this point, i would argue we have, we have gone far too far into the data protection sphere. here we need to re evaluate that and just to close off the day where the if the makes a proposal that is helpful or even legal has certainly not come yet. so this is not what we should be looking for solutions. and this is a popular, spotty who wants to misuse the situation for their own election. perhaps martin, i'd like to ask you once more of some say that this is just a shock reaction in germany and that after a few days of debate, everything will turn back to normal. is there a back to normal after this warning and attacks? or i'm not sure if, if it is because if you look at the last months there were a tags before the drug. we had this in my mind, we had the policeman who was killed by in the midst of with a knife. and there have been more and more such attacks. and i think it's

a very risky move. if we just a try to do like everything is on, it's perfectly normal. and i think this, this is, this is a very risky move for the, for the tissues to do so. i think there have to be some changes have to be made. there's a lot at stake, we will see of those changes happen to all 3 of you. thank you very much for today's debate to you for watching. remember, you can always watch our shows on youtube, just search for dw use and find the to the point i'm call, you know, get us till next time. take care by the,

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. this is the, the news long from or live. the un urges israel to halt it's large scale rates in the occupied westbank when you came to closing. so i would say the 10 we cannot go further at this point. we hear from our forest funded on the ground and israel claims its forces killed in this loving jihad commander in a shoot out of the most. also coming up a tough response to the 9th of attacked, the german government announces new security and asylum measures. after last week's deadly stabbing.