people learn to classify small handful of animals as edible and all the rest of the classify as disgusting. a donkey series about our complex relationship with them and also need to be watching now on youtube. d. w documentary, the germany is still in shock after the knife attack in the western city of so oregon, where 3 people were killed and 8 wounded on a friday night, while families process the grief and hor, questions arise. why is germany subject to these types of attacks? the suspected perpetrator with alleged links to isis came from syria, eluded the german all stories and committed murder, the result, heated political debates about the weapon laws, the protections and the site with all this just days before crucial state elections . on to the point we ask after this oregon night attack to germany, change its migration policy.

the welcome to this week to the point i'm have you had, i guess it's good to have you with us. let's meet today's guests. jack up shinla is a terrorism expert and director of the counter extremism project. i mean, the most hobby is a freelance journalist from iraq just returned from reporting in zoning and martin friday is the deputy editor in chief of n z z germany joining us from the city of zurich called you welcome. thank you for being with us today. and we have a little bit of a manual today, but we're certainly do our best. i'd like to start with you. i mean, you just got back from zoning and how would you describe the aftermath of this attack in germany? while i saw a city, again, solving a full of anger and also sadness people last going to industry twice. and that's

happening again in our city. and some people still afraid, especially the new grounds to now they're afraid of the reaction of them and the other state a city is full of police and full of the investigation. of course of this is one of the bloody attack in the city happened out. and what's what i noticed that some people trying to find an subs from the responsible for electricians. why? our law, a strong law, still lots run all to still nots, without a result of preventing that attack. and still, there is a more question, but no answer answer that may come from investigations hands. isis claimed responsibility for this attack. however, german off already still has to provide clear evidence. how do you as an expert assess the events in solving book? i mean in the last couple of years we have seen

a very concerned campaign by the slimy stage to again concentrate on terror attacks brought including in europe including in germany. it is also true that tarzan only functions if you are in the media and just a fireplace ends october last year. media reporting had concentrated on how my sis block and who fees in government. and no one talked about. ice is all kind of so they were under pressure to do something. so if you saw that in a, in most count a couple of months ago, we saw a real series of time at the taylor swift concepts. and again, a couple of weeks ago. and unfortunately, now they were successful also here in germany and sony. let's go over to zurich martin, when we hear all of this, germany has rather than regard it as a safe country so far, do you think that the sense of security is changing? i guess apparently it is, or evidently it is so many people in germany,

fear that that the inner safety in germany uh is, is uh, going down. and you can also see a very huge problem with migration policy. so if you look at the service or pulse, many drums, i'm very concerned about the migration policy of, of the german government. they're not happy with what is happening. there's a lot of illegal migrants flowing into the country. last year we had 350000 asylum seekers that came into the country. and i think this is a very important point to look at. well, certainly built into the aspect of migration. first, we will have a look at what isis is actually doing with the multiple wars and crisis. as we just mentioned, the threat posed by the so called hispanic state has someone faded into the background. however, for security experts, it was always clear, the thread has not disappeared, it was just waiting for the right moment. the shock runs deep people and

zoning in are stunned. you wouldn't get inside the uncertainty as to why this had to happen. why innocent people have to die. so i'm looking for why weren't the borders where they were allowed to cross properly controls, which just couldn't pull yet. memories of the 2016 attack on the berlin christmas market come flooding back. when 13 people were killed by an eye, a supporter, it was the last major attack in germany that i asked officially claimed responsibility for since then, loan as long as motivated perpetrators have carried out numerous other attacks. last march, a terrorist attack, and a concert hall in moscow, russia was allegedly carried out by an affiliate. more than a 140 people were killed. the methods of terror have changed. instead of planning in elaborate attack, the suspected perpetrator used to nice and acted alone. chancellor schultz visited the crime scene and zooming in and promised

a stricter gun laws does not tell what was most that was terrorism. that was my terrorism against us, all which threatens our lives coexistence, the way we met him. but how can an open society protect itself from terrorism? the, as you already mentioned, that the media has focused on other issues and not putting eyes in the foreground. however, whoever follows the news has also heard that isis has actually, we can, over the years, is that perception wrong? how powerful is it these days and how much damage kind of causing your well look? i mean, in 2019, the physical expression of these lovely said the color that in see around your rock ended. however, since that time to isis has actually d as seen and the massive growth box the also because we are no longer taking care of the problem, the core of word the stairs, to abrasions operate since 2019 significant reductions of military operations in

syria. and iraq, since 2021. we collectively withdrew from afghanistan since 2023 partially on decisions by that you end to end emissions. that partially because they meet every genes, invest africa asked us to leave. no more ability to put pressure on is or i'll kite . i will have incredible amount of fighters money. i can weapons in west africa, so we are no longer fighting terrorism in its core areas and hands. it's not real surprised that of course the terrorism flight in our own countries is increasing because i don't if she hasn't changed the strategy is reagan to waste through a continuous stream of terror attacks. and so of course, now they have more operational freedom in the core areas, more concentration, more energy, more if it's all put towards the extra low tax, including in europe including germany. and of course, they need operators to do those kinds of attacks or performed in here in germany. for example, i'm your, with your, of the people, mainly young man,

become radicalized. what do we know about that process in the 1st place and how it can be prevented? what we, we notice in the last years that the front line against islamic state has been shifted uh, frontier they took it off to europe, more and more. throw the logical as ation. so internet fuel, platform of social media, of things like tick, tock or facebook or 2 o'clock. and as long as we don't have full access control corporation of the tech companies to find a solution and balancing between the, the variation of the information and the data. and also the protect of the, of the society. so if we are not find that's point, we are still going to facing that more only. and so delete here or there we will find some back like wolf, like attacked in uh, um,

in its own lincoln. and it will show us how weak is the security a people security a police and authority here because they are consecrating on the old method to dealing with that and you developed for it. but the terms are also very wary of data protection. do you think they are willing to pay that price? that is the point. i'm not a now calling for, for something to forget all that liberal. a value spots that is a golden middle. we still, we did not find that gold middle between the threats and between also our level of values to protect and that's $12.00. and there is a lot of a drop in the security service has been done or should be done to keep the equipment then with more drops and more capabilities to have stronger

mod, mulder troops. to prevent that at least modern. if we take a look at a police figures and crime figures in germany, it's called the attention that foreigners are over represented in those statistics . what do you think that is and why is it also ignored and public discussions as well? yes, a for, and those are under represented in certain prime areas. so that's right. and i think it's overlooked because the discussion always is about how do we get these people to their share? probably what, not about the uh, the problems that arise with migration. i think there is, so there's a certain point in the, in the, in the discussion where we do not talk about these problems properly. but this has to shift, this has to change. i think we have to address these problems more ultimately. and of course, we also also have to address more openly what comes with the legal migration and

huge numbers because this is, that's a problem that the german government sees very clearly. we just have to look at the pulse, like i said before, and there's an election of the federal states on sunday and tooling and sec for me . and if you look at the numbers, you see right wing extremists parties like the alternative for germany on the rise . because so people fear that with this huge legal immigration to the country problems with arise. and i think best this has to be addressed. but the majority of immigrants, if i'm allowed to say the majority of the make guns are the say safe people, they are, frankly, they don't want to have that problem. they flipped from that terrible attack in the country, get your rock and see. i think the problem is not that number of the bigger ones and the problems. so how do you, you can find out the law, how you use it. efficient way to prevent that small minority

a taking that's majority make runs as a hostage and talking in the name. that is the point that may be the point, but it's not the political discourse that we have been hearing the last few days because some even call it a new german refugee crisis. the fact is since 2020, the number of refugees in germany has once again been rising sharply and the number of illegal aliens is also increasing. the people are longing for europe. despite having nothing, they risk everything. every day people try to flee europe as seen here and say to of the spanish mainland. thousands die every year. for a long time, the eu has tried to stop criminal smugglers and control migration. with little success. last year alone, a member of states reported a 20 percent increase and asylum applications. their main destination is germany. a 3rd of all asylum applications are filed here. many municipalities saved throughout

their limits and say they cannot accommodate any more people. german border checks have so far had little success and it is difficult to depart, migrants have committed crimes back to their countries of origin, especially to afghanistan or syria, where they're seeking would be in doubt. tentatively schultz has announced once again that he is more determined than ever to the port criminals have politicians failed to manage migration. i'll pass that question right on to you. i'm your hospitalizations failed to manage migration. i think you, you cannot blame the solutions that and the government now because we're, we're, we're dealing with the problem, the long term. we should look back in the last 1015 years. what has been happened in the wrong way? that we're still in this position? i think the, the now government try to make a agreement with some governments, for example, in iraq. there were a agreement with iraq government to bring all along

a lot of iraqis that i know top right here since i'll bring that back. but still, this is the moving of that effort or go so slowly in comparison with the numbers of the new mega. and so i think we should look in the, in the back end, the basis of the watts we are going to, to accept or would like to accept the guns in which conditions um and that, and we should talking to and discuss it far away from politicians because it, you can see it in the next sunday, that's to a theme will be to play a big role in apology, i already know, and it's maybe far away from the facts of the ground. the facts on the ground are always difficult to read and situations of a high emotional stress like we have right now. hence, there seems to be this discourse, especially by some of the politicians here, that if germany had stricter migration loss,

the attack consoling and would have never happened. is that so that's a very complicated document to make. obviously no one can knock you that everything went well in the process of this particular individual. he was supposed to be expedited back to bulgaria, but of course bulgaria is part of the european union. so if you would have been really determined to conduct the attack in germany, it came to germany once from bulgaria and 2022. there's really no barrier that would have prevented him from coming back a 2nd time to conduct the attack. so the debate on how we gonna apply all loss as far as a migration is concerned, i'll be up demise the procedures and make them more effective for extradition of individuals that not supposed to be. here is a really important one. in my opinion, the citizens need to see that that government can function and clearly hear something went wrong. and so you need to rectify this. but do say that this is the

only whole primary instrument that we need now to make germany safer against international terrorism. is simply ignoring how international terrorism works. if this individual have as many on us have recognizing the internet, the internet is not going to stop with extradition. it's going to continue. we have a permissive environment in the social media for all types of extremism platforms. as i mean, has it not v helping or cooperating with law enforcement? the french authorities felt compelled to arrest the ceo of telecom a couple of days ago because it's not for me is bottom that missive for crime. major cried child pornography as well as struck dealing and almost eating. so they have to find a new balance and address these issues as well as issues of extradition, procedures, and migration control. but we also need to talk about the ability of the gym

security forces to actually monitor what's going on. and here we have moved very much into the direction of the protection of the last couple of years. so if you have to fight terrorism here, we'll have to me, ready to fight terrorism. that's decision will be made when you withdrew from the international operations. so if you need to understand that site and then there is more then times and guns and rockets, it has to also be a legal basis for the security as far as to act, the technology to do so, and the personnel to operationalize that. however, what we are hearing in the political debates all these days is rather the topic off migration. martin, why do you think there's a focus on that topic specifically, despite the fact that we're just hearing that that may not be the solution? and is that even possible to significant clearly, significantly change asylum laws, for example, here in germany as well. first of all, i agree that's, that's one terrorist attack as

a terrorist really wants to attack some thing that it is hard to, to prevent all terrorist attack from happening or, or all from adults, from doing criminal things. i think that's right, but i don't, don't think that that changing migration policy is not effective. and if you look at the police mounts to be off the opposition party, you propose very strict policies. and the last day is the fact that the germany should prevent all illegal migrants from entering the country at the borders of the conclusion. but the european union should be reached. and if it's not that we are going to be reached, any propose that germany has the duty and also the right. and so to use that to declare a state of national, the emergency and effectively bar any illegal but migrant to enter the country. and of course, this is a very hard to fulfill the proposition, and i'm not sure if it's uh, it's going to be working within the legal framework of their european union. and

also suggests he's just the opposition leader. what i do think that they should look at the german government. if you look at the ministry of frontier, your answer is, or you just, you just don't see a certain efforts to prevent the illegal migrants from entering the country. one example i bought a controls immensely. she is always hesitated to put in both the controls into, into place. and when she did in the context of to europe and football championship, they were very effective. they um, the police got hold of smugglers, it prevented criminals from entering the country. it sent a signal to on neighboring states to poland, to the check for public. and they also took the chair more of the board has when we sent out the signal. but often of the european football championship against the fields or didn't want to keep these border controls in place. and i think that the german public ceaseless very clearly and just sees less effort to year in the german government. and i think this has to change,

but why if we do want to prevent these populace movements from becoming more and more powerful in germany, what is the reason for not wanting to keep those border control? so at least what's the reason that that the government has stated as well. she said it's about the european framing of, of course, just right. and she also said that the, that the economy as being has problems when you put in an effective order control. so nothing happens with the economy. basically, all the, all the trucks were able to angel the country, but effectively many illegal in trends and also smugglers were, were effectively enough from entering the country. so it was very effective. so so this, so what nancy things are stated in the beginning was clearly not about the correct right. so i do not really know, but i would say that the german government, it's a coalition of the social democratic party. the literal sense of greens do not

really one very strict migration policies in place. what they do want is they want to liberalize migration. and you can also see that with the naturalization law, which was put in place in the end of june, uh when, when, when it's about um, you know, helping my friends to get to this country. they're really quick and putting policies into place when, when it's about gender and people to enter the country, it can take a much longer time. and i think that's a problem. and i think, yeah, it's a problem because the populace movements are on the rise. that's exactly the case of the populace movements of the lights the far right a if the party i'm here have a always defended underscore is that is less prone to accepting migrants into the country. and that has also fledged to the ports, millions of people um, or at least plans uh, have as have arised. do you think the traditional parties in germany can actually offer a solution to this pressing problem against a party that seems to get ahold of that sentiment in the population?

unfortunately not, i cannot see a pro pool and sort of that politicians in a, in, in a writes wings. and i still believe that the, that the democratic boxes in germany still have a possibility to the answer of, that's the, that's the problem in the other way. in a way that they pro, pull a run on the the, the lot on the ground and bought in the same way. also more equipment for the social worker, for the uh, for the mac guns. uh more control the, the for the internet homepage. and also maybe i come back to the control only bought the apple, i am more type monitoring the smugglers on the platforms and like tick tock and so on. and so one of them, they say he want to come to germany, a,

a migrant and talking with the smuggler on tick tock. and he tell them to wait till the championship in for us will finish. it will be easier for you. i mean, they, you know what this is going on on the ground, and this is more of it, this is mean, this is very fun. if you, when you, when you, when you move on the whole, the platform, you will see how weak the low in the germany and how they use that holes. the smugglers to come through. i mean, you need more efficient people. people understand how they think that the smugglers or how they think the migrants and how you can find an answer for that's have one more minute left. and i'd like to ask you hundreds of some say that in security is a price that a society that wants to be open and liberal has to pay. do you agree with that

assessment? of course there's always a balance between security and freedom. the question is, what is that balance and do we have found the right balance here in germany? at this point, i would argue we have, we have gone far too far into the data protection sphere. here. we need to re evaluate that and just to close off the day where the, the makes a proposal that is helpful or even legal has certainly not come yet. so this is not what we should be looking for solutions. and this is a popular, spotty who wants to misuse the situation for their own election. perhaps martin, i'd like to ask you once more of some say that this is just a shock reaction in germany and that after a few days of debate, everything will turn back to normal. is there a back to normal after this warning and attacks? i'm not sure if, if it is because if you look at the last months there were a tags before the drug. we had this in my mind,

we had the policeman who was killed by him is the midst of with a knife. and there have been more and more such attacks and, and i think it's a very risky move if we just a try to do like everything is on, it's perfectly normal. and i think this, this is, this is a very risky move for the, for the tissues to do so. i think there have to be some changes have to be made. there's a lot at stake. we will see of those changes happen to all 3 of you. thank you very much for today's debate to you for watching. remember, you can always watch our shows on youtube, just search for dw use and find the to the point i'm call, you know, guess till next time take care by the,

the, the,

they were expecting me to sign and mail. it would've turned out to be different from one day. so i just falsely assumed that love was the so important people should keep their feelings under control. love what kids once and what the parents wish for them to stay. norman, we've done everything to prevent a divorce, but nothing works best as i was asked them in 30 minutes on the w to the points strong,

clear position, international perspective, germany is still in shock after the nice attack and so willing and bring suspects came from syria and diluted terminal authorities triggering political debates about to partitions and asylum. on to the point we ask after the nice attacks the germany changed to migration policy. to the pulling. in 90 minutes on d w, the lights through the ocean. and mother come back well with a comp time to have to be human. so imagine for now the private says it comes out of the way

it's of ocean conservation starting september for the living independent, arise to society is full of contrasts and inequality is a big challenge. many problems can only be solved by working together. yes, i think i pretend isn't misleading. what is home? how do we tackle the major issues about time to because there is a significant risk of human extinction from advancing our systems and changes the new frontier. so from our series continue to attend assessed on the w, the

this, the state of the news line from berlin as well. press the head with a major military operation in the west bank. i would say says 10, why we cannot go further at this point. as well claims as full scale them as law makes you health come on the in a shootout at the most ok. respondent is on the ground. also coming up can police some haiti launch an operation to ouse criminal gangs from photo prints. really talk to a jaundiced on the ground about how effective the un mission and the hong

kong code find still joining the guilty of.