[000:00:00;00] american politician henry kissinger, a diplomat who changed the world, as he was called, died at the age of 100. this is what we are talking about today in the issue of bbc ukraine. olga palomaryuk works in the studio. he tried to improve relations between china and the united states, and even offered ukraine to give up part of its territories in exchange for peace. what legacy does kissinger leave behind? henry kissinger is a diplomat and politician. the figure is controversial and ambiguous for many. it was he who managed to achieve a breakthrough in the cold war american-chinese relations. discharged

tensely. with the soviet union, kissinger was criticized, particularly for his role in conflicts around the world. ukrainians remember kissinger most for his statements about territorial concessions. he was against ukraine's membership in nato. after a full-scale russian invasion, kissinger offered ukraine to give up part of its territory in exchange for peace. this statement caused outrage in kyiv and among ukraine's allies. however, later his views changed. he said that the peace process should have been to necessarily connect ukraine with nato, did such statements of the diplomat have an effect on the western attitude towards the war in ukraine, or were his opinions listened to? let's try to figure it out during today's broadcast , and for a start, what brought kissinger world fame, how he saw the world order, my colleagues collected everything you need to know, for some henry kissinger was one of

the most influential statesmen. cold war veteran who has advised presidents and prime ministers for decades. for others, he was a war criminal. a war criminal, yes uncompromisingly defended american interests, which cost thousands of lives. he was born with the name heinz kissinger in germany, in a jewish family. the family fled to america in 1938. when young henry grew up, he returned to europe to fight with the american army. and in peacetime, the soldier became a scientist at harvard university. he made a name for himself by advocating the use of nuclear weapons in conventional warfare. i believe that it is technically possible to resist through the limited use of nuclear weapons, although this is less desirable. today i am happy announcing the appointment of white house employees for the first time. it was president nixon who brought kissinger to power. he was first a

security adviser, then secretary of state. together, they sought to strike a balance between the world's superpowers to change the course of the cold war. kissinger encouraged the restoration of american contacts with communist china. he made secret visits to chinese leaders, preparing the ground for the first historic visit by a us president in 1972. he tried to improve relations with the soviet union with help negotiations on trade and arms control. and in the middle east, he invented a new term. shuttle diplomacy, when he flew between the capitals and tried to contain the arab-israeli conflict. he believed in realpolitik . it is the idea that national interests are more important than people's rights or shared values. no country can make its survival dependent on the goodwill of another country. and all this brought him world fame. i don't insist on protocol, if you just address me as your

highness, that's fine. we are convinced. but kissinger's popularity became notorious when he supported the bombing of cambodia in an effort to withdraw the soviet union from vietnam. as a result, america was able to cut off supplies to north vietnam, but hundreds of thousands of people died. kissinger's critics accused him of war crimes, and supporters congratulated him on receiving the nobel peace prize. in public life , nothing has ever moved me as much as this award. it is also criticized. for supporting authoritarian anti-communist leaders such as general pinochet in chile. kissinger supported the coup that brought the brutal pinochet junta to power. it was at the height of the cold war. the united states could not stay aloof from questions about the communist regime in chile. i am resigning as president, effective tomorrow at noon. kissinger was considered so indispensable that he survived the watergate scandal and remained on

gerald ford's team. but he was out of favor in washington, kissinger was hated by the left, distrusted by the right, so he started making money in consulting. that was henry kissinger, a scientist and a statesman, a cynic who sometimes had a bad attitude towards human lives, but above all, a diplomat who was always ready for negotiations. former us secretary of state henry kissinger died at the age of 100. if you want to know more about the fate of the legendary diplomat, what he did, what legacy he left behind. i strongly advise you to read the article about it on our website bbc.ua. well, let's continue now, and the former foreign minister will join the broadcast. of ukrainian affairs volodymyr hrysko, mr. volodymyr, i congratulate you, here is one among the loudest statements for the ukrainian audience was kissinger's statement that ukraine should have sacrificed part of its territory for peace. later, some politicians

even called kissenger's proposal peace because of weakness. do you think he was expressing his opinion, or was that what was actually being thought in the united states? congratulations olya. well, in your article, it is absolutely clearly and correctly said that he was the personification of this politics, the so-called reality, and also that he was a cynic, and this is a great truth, and this cynicism was manifested in many cases, including in relation to ukraine. what he said, i think that in recent years , it was hardly possible to attribute the positions of western leaders, although certainly, given his figure, his opinions could not be

ignored, but one way or another, decisions were made already others, to tell the truth, i have left, some one is quite bitter from his activity. should, because in fact , he really did things that were very far from the values ​​on which the western world is built, and this can be considered normal diplomacy, but it is bad diplomacy, when as a result of what you do, whole countries suffer and hundreds of thousands of people are destroyed, i think it is the diplomacy of cynicism, and it is very good that this, this, the era, with which, so to speak, kissinger lived, and the exponent

of which he was, is now coming to an end, i think that the victory of ukraine, of ukraine in the war with the russian aggressor, will mean the end of an era of frank cynicism in world politics. well, yes, well, if, while returning to ukraine, at the same time, kissinger changed his mind, yes, in particular, regarding ukraine's membership in nato, what do you think, why did this happen, well, you know, before going to the almighty, people, it seems to me, reflect on their previous path and maybe admit their mistakes, maybe it was some kind of... a time of insight and desire , to go into eternity, without a stain, at least in relation to ukraine, it seems so to me, of course, this statement was indeed made in january of this year, if i am not mistaken, mr. volodymyr,

please stay in touch, there is much more to be desired from you to discuss, but in the context of the current one the conversation is worth mentioning and about what else, about kissinger's important role in the rapprochement of the united states and china, why? because then, in the early 70s, it seemed like an absolute fantasy. kissinger managed the impossible, to restore relations between states. as? he secretly went to beijing and arranged a meeting between then-president richard nixon and china's leader mao zedong. and here's what winston lord told about that trip on the bbc. he was an assistant to kissinger. there have been many dramatic moments in my life, but this moment will probably top them all. we secretly flew from pakistan. to china, i always say this, henry admitted it, that i got to china before him, since 1949, for 22 years , no american official visited china, so a pakistani plane secretly took us to beijing, and when we flew over the chinese

border i was in the front of the plane and henry was in the back, so i say that i was the first american official to visit china, but of course the visit was dramatic, it caused a geopolitical earthquake, contributed to american foreign policy politics, brought my spirit to the american people, helped to improve relations with the soviet union, helped to end the war in vietnam, it made kissinger a national and popular figure, so i think that was an important moment, personally, both for him and for me , because my wife is from shanghai, i returned to her native land, it was a turning point in world history, so it was a dramatic trip, although kissinger was sick of being compared to james bond, but he met with chinese leaders for the first time in 22 years and paved the way for nixon's visit, and it was truly one of the highlights of my life. after such secret visits, the united states and china restored

diplomatic relations, the then american president nixon went to beijing, shook hands with maudzedun, already this year, when the relations between the countries reached tension again, kissinger visited beijing unofficially again. he did not hold any positions then, did he succeed in thawing relations between china and the usa for the second time in his life. well, after four months the leader. came to the usa and still met with president biden. well, let's return to the conversation with the former minister of foreign affairs of ukraine , volodymyr ogrysk. mr. volodymyr, what is the current level of relations between the united states and china? would kissinger be pleased? it seems to me that after this meeting, which took place now in the usa, there are signs that both countries have at least agreed not to worsen them further, and this is already

a result. i think that strategically, after the defeat of russia, in its aggression against ukraine, china will have no other way out than to think about the need to normalize relations the usa, and agree on all possible angles, because this will give china obvious... advantages, in fact, just like the united states of america. the confrontation of these two superpowers, because this is a truly bipolar world, it involves at least consideration of each other's interests. if china realizes this, if they refuse to compete with the united states of america, because this competition will not be in their favor, then i think the world ... will move into another phase of its development, i repeat

again, after russian imperialism will be defeated on the field in ukrainian war, this is exactly what i honestly hope and believe that the victory of the ukrainian army will give the impetus for the world to really change. i have one more question for you about the events of that time, how did the rapprochement of the usa and china at that time change the relations between the states and the soviet union? well , let's return the question a little to another age, and what did the improvement of relations between the united states and the soviet union do? well, actually, it's just that the illusion appeared in the usa for a period of time that with this e as president reagan later said,

the heart of evil, the empire of evil can be normal relations, was it in the interests of the same principles and values, and i think no, it was in the interests, maybe of certain financial groups, maybe of certain economic leaders, but it was not in the interests of this evil to be faster destroyed, so please. yes, yes, we hear you, uh, so i think, you know, the character, kissinger , it's a whole lot of contradictions, which definitely, i think, is very difficult to evaluate, and to say what was more positive or negative in all of this , i think, well on historians will give an answer to this question when they really consider it in great detail. all on their historical scales. yes, thank you,

volodymyr hrysko, ex-minister of foreign affairs, was on our air, well, that's all for today, see you tomorrow. greetings, friends, the live broadcast of the tv channel continues with the verdict program, my name is serhii rudenko, today i am in the program. internal showdowns in ukraine, how political differences will push the west to make concessions to putin, time for patience and trust, what are the dangers of trying to make an industrious politician who does it and why, get rid of bribers, how to finally

fight corruption in ukraine? friends, throughout our evening today we are conducting a survey, we you. we ask about this, is the ukrainian government showing unity today, yes, no, please vote on youtube, everything is very simple, two functions, yes, no, or write your comment under this video, if you are watching us on tv now telecast, pick up the phone and vote on 0800 2011-381, if you see that the ukrainian government is showing unity and not 0800 211-382, call everyone calls: these numbers are free, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote. andrii sedchuk, people's deputy of ukraine, voice faction, is a guest of verdict today. mr. andrii, i congratulate you, i am glad to see you. good evening, each other. serhiy taran, deputy of the kyiv council of the european solidarity faction. mr. sergey, i congratulate you and thank you for joining

our broadcast today. thank you, i am a political scientist, no longer a member of the kyiv city council, i have submitted credentials in connection with work for an international organization. then i congratulate the political scientist serhii tarana is no longer a member of the kyiv city council, and we are waiting for the inclusion of maria ionova, people 's deputy of ukraine, european solidarity faction, she will join our broadcast later. so, gentlemen, in the format of a blitz poll, let's try to answer a fairly simple question that we ask our tv viewers. is the ukrainian government demonstrating unity today? mr. serhiy, to you. you know, if at the beginning of the war the authorities assembled a government of national trust, concluded a pact with all political forces on national unity, invited to take a joint responsibility of all political forces for the defense of the country, then we would see

more political unity now. if instead of the national, as the so-called single marathon, where political censorship is introduced, we saw censorship that extends exclusively to military information, as it is for example in israel, where there is censorship during war, but this censorship extends exclusively to military, sensitive information and has nothing to do with political censorship. so, if our government had followed this path, we would now have a political one unity, because there would be joint political responsibility of the forces that could directly discuss their problems with freedom of speech on the air. since the government took a slightly different tone at the beginning of the war, now we see that all these political contradictions , which, unfortunately, are not inevitable, they are not inevitable, are spilling over the mountain, and although we do not see it yet, so clearly, well, there are prerequisites , that we will soon be talking about the fact that there are

internal political contradictions, which of course is very bad during the war, you know, now the political representatives of the parliament, the labor representatives in the parliament today signed such a general declarative agreement that we will not have elections during the war, this is very good, by the way, because we have had this election campaign going on for a very long time, but if it continued to go on in our country, in we wouldn't even have a hint of political unity at all. moreover, the representatives of the factions signed such a declarative agreement that they say even elections will be held only after the war is over and six months have passed, so there is hope that this political... tension that we have yes, it will not be so acute, but if we want to get rid of it, we need to correct the mistakes made at the beginning of the war , we need to create a government of national unity, we need to have the courage for the authorities to share responsibility with all political forces, of course this implies the absence of any

political censorship and, of course, this presupposes the understanding that political forces will take responsibility for everything that happens in the country. but if it happens, then everything will be better, if it doesn't happen, like this political internal irritation to the good ones, thank you, mr. serhiy, mr. andriy, do you think that the ukrainian government is showing unity today, look, friends, i slightly disagree with my colleague, in general, everything is correct, but i think that in 21 months of the great after the war, we went through very different cycles, both military and political, and each of them required certain communication and political tools, it is clear that the bank by definition was not ready for some topic of the unity government there or something else in

march. in april, there in may of the 22nd year, then everything was solved in the mode of the fire brigade, but since then a lot has changed, and now, when you ask me a question, it is obvious that there is a problem, and this problem , of course, was created by the bank with its own hands, who knows what the hell, and now it is trying to extinguish it somehow , you mentioned some kind of memorandum that was signed there, which is quite strange, but we have to remember where it all started, and it started... with the fact that ruslan stefanchuk was put into the mouth of the phrase that the ukrainian constitution does not prohibit elections in wartime, and this issue will updated, this is actually his quote , it seems in july or august of this year, that is, they themselves actually launched a political company during the war, when it was clear to all conscious people that it was absurd, i remember... then in on the first day, i urged everyone that this is the way to freeze the conflict, it is the way to capitulation and the way

to lose democracy, because it is impossible to hold elections during the war, i said at the beginning of august, now four months later, everyone supposedly agreed with this, but we again, they lost a lot of time, a lot of nerves, er, that everything turned into some kind of hype in the verkhovna rada, well, everyone knows about these crazy amendment attacks, when there are deputies... of different factions, i won't point the finger at anyone, but there they put 400-500 amendments there to train there there is the opposite side, that is, pure such peacetime politics at a time when we have to make all decisions, all absolutely with one goal only, if it helps us win the war, all other decisions, they are not really necessary, but less so now we see attempts, once again they are only attempts somehow repay all this hundred but at the same time, the bank itself constantly provokes completely unnecessary narratives, and if

with the elections the issue was supposedly closed, everyone supposedly calmed down, then the internal confrontation there is already at the level of the top authorities, it remains an open question, and it is not a banking issue , this is an issue of ukrainian society, it is extremely sensitive, and instead of doing everything possible. possible in order to guarantee the ukrainian society that dear friends, everything is fine, we are united, we are whole, we are fighting for our survival, we are fighting for ending the war on our terms, instead some absolute nonsense is thrown in again, for example, let's give it another 10 seconds, this nonsense that someone from the military, if he wants to be a politician, should go into politics, this can only be said by a person who does not understand that war is a continuation of politics, this is an axiom even during war, maybe it seems strange to some, but just like all military men are politicians, they just use other

arguments, they use a tank, a howitzer, a grenade, a machine gun, and this is a tool of politics , because we are achieving and fighting for political goals, so once again now it is very important to somehow try to put a stop to it all, because we are really creating absolutely unnecessary ones. emotional narratives above all, despite the fact that society is very tired, it is obvious, and we need any hope, at least understandable, that we can hold out for the next half a year, because the war does not end tomorrow, and this is the obligation of the bank, because she monopolized the power of the whole country, it happened, it was the choice of the ukrainian people, but this is also included responsible, and now she should be primarily responsible for specific actions on... thank you mr. andriy, we are joined by maria ionova, people's deputy of ukraine from

the european solidarity faction, ms. maria, i congratulate you and i am glad that you have joined our ether, thank you, i apologize for being on the road again, but, well, since we have already started this discussion with mr. andriy and mr. serhiy, we are asking whether the ukrainian government is demonstrating unity today. we ask our tv viewers about it they watch us on the air and on youtube and on tv, so i will ask you this question as well, in your opinion , does the ukrainian government today demonstrate unity, i mean the government, without dividing it by the opposition or monopolies, the government, as the government that did the people delegate? mr. serhiy, to sort out the conflict during a full-scale aggression is completely unacceptable, and really, but... we, our faction of european solidarity, we are calling for this, i don't know anymore, not only since the beginning of the war, in fact, we

have called for this and to a full scale invasion, persuades authorities to prepare for war, warning that we should build fortifications, arm the army and strengthen the armed forces of ukraine by all means to repel the enemy, and when you, when we are talking about, now unity, we do not really feel it, to be honest, unfortunately, in the parliament too, it is very good that the memorandum was signed, i just wish, how many papers are not signed there, i would like this unity to be in action, and because now the first thing around us is about to unite, it is precisely around the armed forces of ukraine, and therefore when politicians start to meddle, you know, in military affairs and criticize this or that commander-in-chief, well, this is definitely not for the time being, our job now is to provide

as much as possible, but to work with partners, both with weapons, and yes, and sanctions, yes, strengthen sanctions , as well as humanitarian aid, this is our task, and the government should really work to ensure that, even now, when the construction of fortifications has already been delayed, to mobilize all resources, together with local military administrations, now to work on it, and we have to work the same way, you know, after all, to change our army according to nato standards, not only if it were our human army, but to change and implement systemic such complex solutions, when we see with you that, well, war, it very technological, that is, that we still have to fight not with people, but we have to fight more with technology, and we also have to do everything to change the politics inside the army, you know, ladies and gentlemen,

i had several journalists call me today , i already i talked about it in the previous broadcast, but i will repeat, colleagues called from tokyo and brussels and asked what is happening in your country, why is there a political threat between zelensky and zaluzhny, well, these are just the questions they asked me, they had that impression , that they are a caper, the political situation between and the political relations between zaluzhny and zelenskyi, how society reacts to this, do we have any internal problems that can prevent us from winning, zezekoni wrote yesterday that there is a political threat in kyiv, and rating drop zelenskyi, stefanchuk says that there is no conflict between zelskyi and zaluzhny, this is all propaganda of the russian federation, mykhailo podalyak, adviser to the head of the office of the president of ukraine, on radio liberty, emphasized that

there is no conflict between president zelenskyi and the commander-in-chief of the ukrainian armed forces, valery zaluzhny either, i i suggest you listen later. we insist that there is no conflict, and this is the main thing, because i emphasize once again that president zelenskyi is in constant communication with mr. zaluchnyi, there are certainly situations when it is necessary to have these or other conversations, difficult conversations , taking into account how our offensive operations are progressing, what should... what adjustments should be made, what should be done in order to make it more effective, but i emphasize once again, these communications daily in working formats, well, the daily communication between the president and the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of ukraine takes place, i don’t know if they talk to each other about how diligently the deputies try to bully the people’s servants, because

the impression seems to be that the representatives monovla they are trying to torpedo the industrious, at this time in the president's office they say there are no questions at all, well, there is marryana bezugla, who is trying to get the industrious to resign, but she is a people's deputy and what is her relationship to all that, especially the deputy head of the parliamentary committee on national security and defense. mr. serhiy, i have a question for you as a political scientist, as a person who understands political technologies, that is. how would you characterize what is happening regarding valery zaluzhny, because there is a political torpedo, mariana is cornerless, and she constantly just torpedoes in vain, and the president's office says that there are no problems at all, mr. serhiy, you hear, yes, yes, now i hear, well, you see, here we were talking in